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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...763#Post2489763

Opening my new thread again, it ran away over the weekend. ;-)



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Just journaling about the weekend:

Friday night I went to a Parents' Night Out for D11's new school. H had already planned to go to a fundraiser event for a business partner's wife who is running for Village Council and had previously told me I didn't need to go with him although I offered. Then he seemed unhappy that I went to the mixer. I didn't stay out late, but he didn't ask me a single question when I got home, didn't bring it up the rest of the weekend.

Saturday night my D16 and I went to a Foam Glow 5K and had a good time. H hung out with D11, a 5K is not something he would have done anyway. He didn't really show any interest in that, either, except when I was talking to D11 about it and showing her pictures in front of him.

Sunday was church, basketball game (sadly, we lost), D16's soccer game, grilled for dinner. Typical Sunday. H did a lot around the house this weekend, and I told him I appreciated it.

Pretty boring stuff. Hope your weekends were more exciting, but in a good DB way. ;-)



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RPP,

You're doing good by staying busy and GALing. That's something you do for YOURSELF and your kids. H is still out there. Too bad.

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Originally Posted By: Wonka
RPP,
H is still out there. Too bad.


Agree with both of these statements! It's too bad that he's so deadest on leaving that he can't see that we have a good life, that he can't see it could be a really great life. I still don't get it, but try not to dwell on the whys anymore.

Yesterday was completely uneventful. H got home late last night (band rehearsal), and was still asleep when I left this morning. Let's see if he shows up for dinner tonight or not, he seems to be consistently out on Tuesdays. Must be date night.



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He's in a band?


Me 57/H 58
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Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Yes, labug, he plays lead guitar and sings in a contemporary Christian band. Every Sunday he stands in front of the congregation and sings about doing God's will. It's a very moving experience for me each and every Sunday.



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Well, God speaks to each of us in very different ways.


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I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Originally Posted By: rppfl
It's a very moving experience for me each and every Sunday.


Anyone reading this might want to get a towel to mop up the sarcasm dripping from it. Just wanted to clear that up......



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I got that.

But we don't really know what your H needs. He has his journey.


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I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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I figured you got me, labug, just didn't want anyone else confused. ;-)

That's the truth about H's journey. I really don't know what he needs. I'm not sure he does. I haven't seen that God has anything to do with his journey, despite his participation in church, he doesn't seem to get anything out of it. But not for me to judge there.

The difficulty is keeping my own faith when the man that trampled on our wedding vows is standing up there leading worship. It's hard, quite frankly. A journey for me as well.



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Yes.


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Another boring day in the city. Last night H was out to dinner, he never tells me with whom, could be business clients, could be OW. He got home in time to have a special dessert with the girls, though. We chatted a little about the political fundraiser he had attended on Friday night, and that was about it. Still snoozing when I left the house this morning. Life in limbo goes on.

There's a conference in CA that my boss has asked me to attend in November. Unfortunately, H will also be out of town those same days. I don't have anyone to watch D11, no family within 800 miles and I don't know anyone at her new school well enough to ask. So not sure what I'm going to do there. I have my own friends who would willingly help me out, but she doesn't go to the same school as any of their kids and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for them to drop her off and pick her up.

H hasn't mentioned whether he's found a new place or not since the other one fell through. S18 will be home for the weekend in about 3 weeks, and it was our plan to tell them then. Honestly, I hope he finds something and we can stick to that schedule. I'm tired of living in limbo and ready to try something else. I'll probably have a cry fest when he actually moves, but then I'll get over it eventually. And he's never going to have a chance to miss me if he doesn't go anywhere. The best I could hope for with him living in the house is that OW will get fed up with him and break it off. But no telling what kid of lies he's feeding her to keep her patient (no, honey, I don't even sleep in the same room......).



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Well, boss just came in and told me I had to make a decision on the trip by 10am. That's an hour. I just found out yesterday, I feel like he didn't give me enough time to try and work it out. So, the answer is going to have to be no. That's a shame.



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Can you take your D11 and get a family member to come with you as a treat? Or fly a family member in to help out? What about your D18?

Sorry about your conference...

Last edited by Maybell; 09/24/14 01:16 PM.

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Tough break rppfl. Hopefully next time a trip like this comes along it will work out better.

I hear what you are saying about your H moving. My W is still at home. She has been "going next weekend" since July. Being in limbo [censored]. She needs to go to have a chance to miss me. However, the longer she stays the more impatient OM will become I guess. Trying to find the silver lining. Honestly, I am starting to hope she stays through the winter. being alone in the old farm house in the dark and cold of winter is depressing just to think about.


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Originally Posted By: Maybell
Can you take your D11 and get a family member to come with you as a treat? Or fly a family member in to help out? What about your D18?

Sorry about your conference...


S18 is away at college.

D16 and D11 don't get along well enough for me to feel comfortable with it being just the two of them, plus D16 doesn't drive, so neither one of them have a way to school (two different schools). She's also a Type 1 diabetic, which doesn't play a huge roll, but some; I wouldn't want to put D11 in the position of having to assume a caretaker roll for big sis if needed.

Taking D11 with me to the conference means she misses a lot of school, heavily frowned upon.

The only family member that might help out is H's sister, who lives in another state. But she has a 2-year old foster child living with her, so I'd have to bring them both, then it becomes the most expensive conference ever.

So.......given that I only have an hour to figure this out....I'm just gonna punt. But I appreciate your creative thinking, Maybell. ;-)



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Originally Posted By: bdub


I hear what you are saying about your H moving. My W is still at home. She has been "going next weekend" since July. Being in limbo [censored]. She needs to go to have a chance to miss me. However, the longer she stays the more impatient OM will become I guess. Trying to find the silver lining.


bdub, right after BD, my main focus was to hold on until OW became the raging, nagging, complaining, b!tich that I am not. So far that hasn't happened, apparently. I know she's pressuring H to move out, he has said as much, but he's not changing his mind about her, as far as I know, anyway, that's mindreading of course.

I just can't imagine why on earth the OW would put up with him and his lies. And why would she want someone who cheats on his W? Not the man I'm looking for....unless it's my own H apparently! LOL



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I am starting to wonder the same thing. How pathetic is this guy to want someone that lies, cheats, deceives and manipulates the way my W has.

We know that our WAS is in a fog and we have that long history and the kids. We know the person our S used to be, and can still be. We have seen the best and the worst of them. We spoke the words " til death us do part".


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Originally Posted By: rppfl


H hasn't mentioned whether he's found a new place or not since the other one fell through. S18 will be home for the weekend in about 3 weeks, and it was our plan to tell them then. Honestly, I hope he finds something and we can stick to that schedule. I'm tired of living in limbo and ready to try something else. I'll probably have a cry fest when he actually moves, but then I'll get over it eventually. And he's never going to have a chance to miss me if he doesn't go anywhere. The best I could hope for with him living in the house is that OW will get fed up with him and break it off.


Hi Rppfl,

FWIW, I think you're right, while it will be hard at first, things will probably be easier when he actually moves out. I have to say in many ways, my home is much more pleasant now. I hadn't really realized how grumpy and depressed H was until he was gone. It certainly sounds like his OW situation won't have a chance to resolve itself and "get real" until he removes himself. It's weird to tell someone things might bet better once they actually separate, but here we are........


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Originally Posted By: raliced
It certainly sounds like his OW situation won't have a chance to resolve itself and "get real" until he removes himself. It's weird to tell someone things might bet better once they actually separate, but here we are........


It IS weird, isn't it? I never would have believed it. I've been so against his moving out all along, although I never tried to stop him. But when he told me his first place didn't work out, after I thought he had signed the lease, well.....it was odd to recognize my initial reaction as disappointment.

I have said all along that his moving out seemed like a deal-breaker for me, because it forces the issue of telling the kids. I can forgive an A, but not sure if I can forgive hurting my kids. But it's going to happen. And if that turns out to truly be a deal-breaker for me, then it does. His loss, some other man's good fortune. I was a pretty good wife, I think I'd be a great one next time around.



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Originally Posted By: rppfl
I was a pretty good wife, I think I'd be a great one next time around.


I don't know you personally, but I think you would, too. Your husband is crazy.


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Originally Posted By: bdub
I am starting to wonder the same thing. How pathetic is this guy to want someone that lies, cheats, deceives and manipulates the way my W has.


Yep. To the extent that I think about OM, I wonder about what he knows, and what he thinks about my W spending most of the day lounging around his place (I assume...I have no idea where she is really, but this would be the likely thing) while her family spends the weekend without her. Its just baffling. I have to believe that he's a good man, otherwise W wouldnt want to be with him, so he must be oblivious.


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Originally Posted By: 1foot2


I have to believe that he's a good man, otherwise W wouldnt want to be with him, .


No. Good men don't participate in ripping families apart.



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Originally Posted By: nmwb123
Originally Posted By: rppfl
I was a pretty good wife, I think I'd be a great one next time around.


I don't know you personally, but I think you would, too. Your husband is crazy.


Thanks :-)



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I agree! It's so much easier not living with the WAS, where you're in the position of trying to mind read constantly and tiptoe around each other and fake happy in front of the kids. I'm so glad that I don't live with H any more. The issue now is that I don't know how I feel about living with him again, should that come to pass (not counting on it). He is a slob. Even though I'm doing all the work on the house solo these days, it's a lot less work (and a lot cleaner) than when he was here. I have peace in the house. There's not a cranky workaholic hanging out in his study until the wee hours. I definitely have more peace. Maybe that's worth not having a partner.
I know this is terrible and not what DB is about, but I admit I like not having H around. So why am I still clinging to the possibility of restoring that relationship? I really don't know...


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We all cycle through these phases. There's a lot of relief in having a break from the tension you've been living with and your perception now is that that's what it would always be like. And there's not enough good in the relationship yet to outweigh the bad.

I'm not in to piecing or even anywhere near it, but my interactions with my H now ARE so much calmer and have so much more mutual goodwill that, while I'm not yet ready to think about living together (or even kissing!) the idea of living with him again doesn't give me hives. smile


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Just a bit of journaling here: H came home at a semi-reasonable hour last night, had dinner at home, although the girls and I had already eaten. Pleasant enough evening. This morning was drama-free as well.

I took D16 to her endocrinologist this morning, and filled H in on the visit afterwards, something I wouldn't normally do. He's not really involved in her health management, but I'm trying to draw him in more on school and health things lately. If he's going to have the girls at his new place without me, then he needs to be up on these things. We are looking at getting a rather expensive piece of medical equipment for D16 so we discussed that, too.

Involving him more in kid things, expressing my gratitude for the things he does, sharing my emotions more, these are all different for me, and I'm pleased with my efforts to be more open with H. I've been very closed off in the past, and quite frankly, so has he, although he only sees my shortcoming. That's OK for now, I can only open myself up, I can't make him open up, although it took me a lot of frustration to get to that revelation. All these years, I thought I didn't share because he didn't want to hear it, because he didn't share with me. I swear, someone should have sat me down and explained life to me when I was 25. I wouldn't be in this mess now, I suspect.



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Yikes! I was looking online at suggested scripts for telling the kids about S. Or course, most of it was how bad D is for children. There was one website in the form of a letter to the WAS saying basically, if a gunman came into a restaurant you'd take a bullet for your kid. Why can't you gut it up and work on your M? I considered printing that and sending it for about a quarter of a second. ;-) I just do not understand: if all that information is available to me, why does H not seem to know? Sigh......unproductive, I know.



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I know. I know. I haven't seen that particular article, but my H has always been very security conscious about the girls and I have frequently wondered the last few weeks if he realizes he is the greatest threat to their well being right now. I know DR and other books specifically state not to send WAS articles, right now I just have to hope that eventually he might do some research on his own. It's clear to me that despite asking for D he has not looked into how the process in our state works at all.

Last edited by raliced; 09/25/14 08:09 PM.

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I've thought a lot about that too. WAW seems to take divorce so lightly and thinks the kids will actually be better off with two households. To me, its a completely avoidable tragedy. How its possible to have such a drastically different take on something with someone I'm otherwise so compatible with is just crazy.


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I think I'm going to call my next thread Life in Limbo, because that's what I'm living right now. Absolutely nothing going on at my house. I picked H up from work because he had taken D16's car into the shop and it wasn't ready. Got takeout for dinner, which believe it or not is a HUGE change for me, but it's a place that H likes, so that was fine. That's sincerely about it, just another low key evening at home with nothing to report.

Yesterday H told me about a party he wanted to "stop by" on Saturday. That was his way of extending an invitation, so that's on the calendar. Other than that, it will be a regular weekend, soccer, basketball, house chores, church. Life in limbo.



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yes, they are all in the delusional fog. My H said that our daughter would be fine and that it would actually be good for her if we got D because "then she'd get to know as as real people." Who the heck has he been all these years if not a real person? A fake one? Apparently so. So yes, our daughter is getting to see him as a different person, not necessarily a good one though. So there's that. They think that if they are happy everyone else will be, regardless of their hurtful choices. Pure delusion. That being said, I have seen that my daughter is more resilient than I expected. She was sad and angry the first couple of months, but she's gotten used to the situation now, and shuttles between our two houses without drama. It makes me sad in some ways that this is the new normal, but I guess I should be glad that she's doing okay with it.


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Originally Posted By: Ahoy
That being said, I have seen that my daughter is more resilient than I expected. She was sad and angry the first couple of months, but she's gotten used to the situation now, and shuttles between our two houses without drama. It makes me sad in some ways that this is the new normal, but I guess I should be glad that she's doing okay with it.


That's all I can hope for. I wanted sooooo desperately to shield my kids from this. I would have severed my right arm for this to all go away and them not know. But, H is apartment shopping with renewed vigor after his last disappointment, and I have come to accept that the move is going to happen. I have shifted my focus to what can I do to make it as easy on my kids as possible. But it still breaks my heart for them because it's just so unnecessary. And it breaks my heart because I don't know that I'll ever feel the same about a man that would do that to his own children.



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I hear you, rppfl. It will likely be difficult at first, and you're smart to brace yourself to be there to support your children's emotional needs. But life will go on for all of you. And by living separately it might change his perspective on things (or not -- no expectations). But it will be a change, and changes are challenging.

Although I still struggle with not knowing fully why my H left, I can say that the separation and sharing child care has gotten easier over the course of the past two months. I hope that gives you some comfort.


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I wish I had some words of wisdom for you. If I did I would probably feel a lot more confident about the situation with my own kids. I hear your concern about not ever being able to look at someone who hurts your kids in the same way. I've felt that too. At the moment I think my H is so out of it, and I think is oblivious to how much this will hurt them, so I'm giving him a bit of a pass (it irks me that he seems to focus on his need to see them and not the other way around). If I ever detect that he really understands the damage he is doing and moves forward anyway that might actually be a gamechanger for me.


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rppfl: We were advised to present a united front. W and i sat down and planned out what we would say and how we would say it. We decided to break it into 3 different talks.
I cannot tell you if its the right way or not. However, I can tell you we made a few mistakes. 1) We called a family meeting, first time ever, and made a pretty big production out of it. That set the boys immediately into defense mode and they were not receptive at all.
2) We agreed to state that it was a mutual decision. This lie has been a HUGE issue since we stated it. After a little bit of questioning from s13 I decided I could not continue to deceive them so I told them it was not my decision. Once I go that out in the open I can talk freely with them, especially s13.


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Originally Posted By: bdub

We agreed to state that it was a mutual decision. This lie has been a HUGE issue since we stated it. After a little bit of questioning from s13 I decided I could not continue to deceive them so I told them it was not my decision. Once I go that out in the open I can talk freely with them, especially s13.


Thanks for the sharing and support. I have already stated plainly that I will not lie to my kids, they are just too old for that. I don't feel the need to volunteer information, but if they ask, I just can't honestly say that this is what I want. It's not. I'm going to have to find some way to present that without throwing H under the bus.



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Originally Posted By: rppfl
I'm going to have to find some way to present that without throwing H under the bus.



This is just my opinion, but simply stating the facts to your children is not throwing H under the bus. He crawled under there of his own volition. To me, the difference would be:

1) Daddy's decided he wants to be with another woman rather than live with us.
2) Daddy's decided he wants to be with another woman rather than live with us, so that means he doesn't love you, and you should treat him as if he were dead to you.


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rrp, say as little as possible. Your kids are older but the ins and outs of their parents sex and love lives isn't their business and shouldn't be made their business. The older kids will see on their own which way the wind blows, the younger may or may not.
If they ask questions that are dad's to answer, send them to dad.

What these kids need most right now is love and understanding and support. They don't need to be in the middle. When we start telling truths, we never know how that will be viewed by the person we're talking to.

This is so difficult.


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I agree with labug. We shared no details. I have not been asked specifically about anything other than a name that appeared on W's phone. I told s13 that he would have to ask W about that because it was her phone.

We went way to far with being nice about it. W even had them thinking it was going to be great fun because they have friends in town, live close to a little park, and will be having a " new adventure".
Since we had the initial talk the "honeymoon" phase has already started to wear off. Just in the last few days S10 and S13 have both expressed some reservations about going.

We did, and still do, reinforce that we both love them and support them and will always be their parents. We also make sure that they know they played no part in what happened.


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bdub, what would you have preferred she say to them? And I'm not asking that in a sharp tone. I'm curious. Parents often try to make unpalatable situations easier in that way.

What would have liked to add?


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RPP,

Your kids will figure out what is happening in a short period of time My xh spoke very little as he wanted me to deliver the news. I just said essentially "your Dad and I love you very much and that will never change. Your Dad will be moving out this weekend am". When I said I needed to chat with them, they asked if we were having another baby:-(. When they asked why he was moving out, xh did say he wanted to work on not yelling at them. My kids were blindsided and understandably confused. We had a very low conflict house. Nonetheless, their Dad was perplexed as to why they were upset and I didn't really see it as beneficial to try to explain to him why that was so. That crazy logic thing.

I don't want to sugarcoat stuff. I AM navigating from foreign terrain. However, I've reminded the kids I'm here for them. They are in therapy and they can ask me anything. I did tell them about the D (their Dad never mentioned it) and they had some legal questions and other things (not that you will end up with a D). At this point, they have discovered and witnessed many untruths from their dad. He will either address that or not. No control over that. Things will work out the way they are supposed to-that much I know.

I can tell you that our house has a sense of peace as never felt before. Even xh's mother comments. My advice to you would be don't build it up more in your head than what it is. Its a difficult discussion and it's heartbreaking (it was a freaking gut buster seeing their little faces asking him not to leave them). However, we survived and so will you my friend. You will be okay!

Hope the day is wonderful for you :-)



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labug I guess I dont really know. We agreed to try to make it as easy as possible on the boys. IMHO that is the only way to go. My only problem with the way we presented it to them was the lie about it being a mutual agreement.
I even supported what she told them about the new adventure. The reason I mentioned it was because I am afraid it will become an issue down the road. After reading that sentence I realize that I am borrowing trouble.


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Part of the reason we chose to tell them early was to prepare them for the change. With being in the same house we have been able to continue to present a united front. However the tough questions will not come until after she moves. The reason I stated we went to far with protecting them was that I want to prepare them for what is coming. Currently they are thinking about being around their buddies and playing at the park. they have not considered riding a different bus, explaining to friends why they moved to town, being shuttled between 2 houses, or having parents that are stressed to the max because of finances, separation and an uncertain future.

Of all the issues re: a D, kids are by FAR the toughest.


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Quote:
Currently they are thinking about being around their buddies and playing at the park. they have not considered riding a different bus, explaining to friends why they moved to town, being shuttled between 2 houses, or having parents that are stressed to the max because of finances, separation and an uncertain future.

Those are your concerns, they may not be your children's. They'll handle it if they have to with your help and support.

I don't think we should short circuit emotions that our kids have and it sounds like your W might have been trying to do that. it might be helpful to say, being sensitive the the level of understanding of the individual child, that things might feel very different for a while but you're there to listen to whatever they have to say, without judgment.

I think most of us do try to manage our kids emotions because we don't like seeing them hurt. We don't allow them to learn to manage on their own with our support.

And here we are as adults trying to learn to mange our emotions.


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very profound labug. I sort of let my W take the lead on this because shes an elementary school teacher. I should add that after we initially told them we decided to take a different approach with each one individually. S13 internalizes a lot and s10 is still very egocentric. Kids around that age think the world revolves around them. A lesson I learned from coaching baseball, basketball and soccer. A lesson reinforced by W's teaching experiences.
We have to draw it out of S13 to get him to talk. I hate doing it because it feels like we are dredging it all up and making it fresh in his mind again. However, by talking about it he is learning more and more and is asking questions that lead us to believe he is coping and trying to figure it out.

S10 is just ticked off because we moved some of his toys to make room for w's bed downstairs. Then, the next week he wants to move so he can play with friend X is lives a few doors down from the new place.


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I told my H I wouldn't lie to our D14 about it, but I support what he wanted to tell her (with me present) as long as it was the truth. So he told her that he needed some time and space to "find himself" and decide what he wants for his future. So he was moving out, and she will be splitting time with us at the two houses. It was all very vague from him, which left our D14 very sad and confused at the time. It's still totally confusing about why this is happening because he's not being honest about the *real* reason (someone else, likely). But whatever.
I just knew I couldn't lie to my daughter because as soon as she would ask a follow-up question about why this was happening, I wouldn't have an answer for her.
But it depends a lot on the age and maturity of the child, I think, as to how you approach it.

Last edited by Ahoy; 09/26/14 07:03 PM.

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Good morning DB-ers. Another weekend gone by, still in limbo. We went to a party Saturday night and had a good time. Funny that a friend of mine commented that H was "attentive", getting me drinks, etc. He plays the game well, as do I. Nothing else of note, lots of kid stuff, sleepover, soccer game, basketball game (this is the team I coach, we won, yay!). House stuff, church, regular weekend.

After church Sunday morning, it was just the two of us at breakfast, so I took the opportunity to ask about his apartment shopping, one of the few subjects he can go on and on about. Apparently, the first two weeks of the month are better shopping that the last two, so it seems like the next two weeks will be a window of opportunity. Who knew there was a cycle to it? I don't know if he'll be on target to tell the kids the weekend that S18 will be home. I will wait and see. I go back and forth as to whether I'm actually looking forward to him moving out, but I'm not longer afraid of it. I still hate it for my kids, though. I've had time to process the idea, they will only get a week or two.

I've said before that H's brain seems to be stuffed with cotton candy. Looking back, in the few months before BD, I was actually starting to be concerned about him that he seemed to forget conversations, etc. I had no idea why, of course, but I thought it was starting to be a problem, and wondered if he was functioning at work OK. I'm so naïve. This weekend he did a couple of things that showed me just how far back this goes. One, he apparently just now noticed my kombucha brewer. I've been brewing, bottling, and drinking kombucha in front of him since January. He has to see the bottles every time he opens the fridge. Two, he told my D16 and I that he recently found out that she qualifies for special ACT/SAT/PSAT/school midterm, testing accommodations because of her medical condition. I took care of that paperwork two years ago when she was a freshman, and she's had to leave the house an hour early for every test she's taken since then. How does he not remember/notice that? It's a mystery.



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I don't know how they don't notice, but isn't it a good thing that he finally DID notice and engage in a couple of things?

You sound strong and peaceful, keep doing what you're doing!!!


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Originally Posted By: Georgiabelle

My kids were blindsided and understandably confused. We had a very low conflict house.


I read the other day that kids actually "do better" with a separation/divorce when the parents have been fighting in front of them. When everything seems OK, they just don't understand what went wrong and have a harder time processing it. I get that, I don't really know what went wrong, either. Yes, I can point to some things that each of us could have done better, but in my opinion, those things weren't ground for divorce. Not that I advocate fighting in front of the children, I don't. But I thought the article was interesting.



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Originally Posted By: Maybell
I don't know how they don't notice, but isn't it a good thing that he finally DID notice and engage in a couple of things?


Yes, it was actually nice for him to be somewhat engaged, even if there was a time-delay on it! ;-) I'll take what I can get at this point.

Originally Posted By: Maybell

You sound strong and peaceful, keep doing what you're doing!!!


Thank you! I do feel much stronger than I did just a few weeks ago. I still tear up sometimes, I had to step out of church for a few minutes yesterday, but a lot of the time I'm ok. More good days than bad days.



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rppfl I read the same article. Kids in low conflict marriages that split are confused as to why. My boys have been trying to figure out what went wrong and they are trying to re adjust how they see us. In my sitch it is even more confusing because from 2 months before BD to now we are actually interacting more with each other and talking more.


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I will say my kids (while still sad) seem less confused by the sitch and rather just confused by their Dad's behavior. The older 2 can see their dad is preoccupied and even the little one sees their dad is a bit "off." I just try to comfort and reassure them as I am navigating from territory I have no personal experience with other than books, sites, and therapy sessions.

I do think every sitch is different in how the WAS interacts with the kids. Please know that R is theirs to navigate and it will be whatever it is. All you can do is love your kids and be their rock during a challenging time. Please know that regardless of the outcome, you will be fine and your kids will be okay as well.



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Originally Posted By: Georgiabelle

Please know that R is theirs to navigate and it will be whatever it is.


Because my kids are older, I think that I will do OK at this. I really try to stay out of it now. I encourage them to talk to their dad about what's on their mind, even offer to help the little one "practice" and find the right words with me beforehand. I believe that in the end, they will all have a great R with their dad. He's a good dad, and means well in his own cotton-candy-brain kind of way.



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So I just got back from a session with IC. She tells me I'm reserved, maybe too reserved for my own good, and that her dream for me is to be able to yell at H for a good solid hour. Ha! What she really meant, is that she wishes I would feel the freedom to express myself with H, even if that came across as yelling. A nice thought, the freedom to express myself. Something I'm working on.

She asked me if I ever felt passion for H and why I M him in the first place. I've expressed those thoughts on my thread before, that no, intense passion was never part of the equation, but I had what I thought were solid reasons for M him, including the fact that I did love him. It makes me wonder, though, if I had chosen someone for passion, where would I be now? I always thought that passion would fade, but the reasons I had were going to be valid always. And then that didn't work out.....so, was I wrong to start with?

I guess the theme of the session is that RPP is too uptight and needs to cut loose a little. Certainly not IC's words, that's my own crude translation. But something to think about.



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I dunno about the passion thing. H and I started out with high passion...and look at where we are now.


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Last night turned out to be interesting. H and I had a long heart to heart talk last night at some point well past midnight. It was the first real conversation we've had since BD. He said things that were hard to hear but the information I as looking for as far as what went wrong. I said things that had been bottled up for years. I listened, validated, and expressed myself in a way that was long overdue. I didn't beg, plead, or talk about reconciliation at all. I don't know that it will make any difference to our M, but it made a difference to me and my journey. I can hear hard things without getting defensive. I can express myself and nothing bad happens. I can recognize that what I thought was anger in H may turn out to cloak some other emotion. In that regard, the conversation was perfectly timed, I don't know that I could have had the same conversation five months ago. But I'm exhausted this morning, 5:30am rolls around early.



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So what did he say that were hard to hear? Share if or when you can.


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He said that in the past few years, he had felt like we had no communication between us, that whenever he tried to talk about the R, I would get defensive and shut down. That he felt like I was abrasive to him and to the kids. That he felt like it was "my way or the highway." And that he honestly thought that if he had an A, I wouldn't care at all.

Are all those things true? They are as true as the feelings I expressed to him, so , yes they are true for him. What he intended as expressing concerns about our relationship, I heard as criticism about my closet and my appearance. Which put me on the defensive and I would lash out and then shut down. Total disconnect there. But last night I was able to hear his concerns/criticism and not get defensive. We actually talked about some things.

Abrasive to him? Yes, as noted above. Abrasive to the kids? Not in my opinion, but I'll watch for it.

Always had to have my way? I kind of feel the opposite, that he pretty much always got his way. But again, I heard it, didn't get defensive, and I'll keep an eye out for it.

On the flip side, last night was the first time I'd really expressed to him that I wasn't happy before BD, either. I told him that, just like he did, I felt unheard in our M. That he showed anger when I expressed my emotions, frustration, fear, sadness. He always seemed really angry if I dared to cry in front of him. I told him that made me feel as if I weren't allowed to be human, and so I completely shut down expressing my emotions so I wouldn't have to incur his wrath.

I can see how we both created a big destructive cycle. H expresses concern, I perceive it as criticism. I feel like I can't express my emotions without incurring anger (which is to be avoided at all costs), so I shut down. H sees me shut down and doesn't felt heard. Rinse and repeat for a few years. Disaster. Maybe he caught on, maybe he didn't. But that information is something I can carry forward with me, and that makes the pain have some benefit.



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I Hindi my H and I could have written what you just shared. I'm so glad you had that conversation. How are you feeling now?


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Originally Posted By: Maybell
I'm so glad you had that conversation. How are you feeling now?


I don't know exactly. It would be fun to feel hopeful, but I don't. I'm afraid it's too late for us. H had previously told me he was "moving in a different direction" (OW). Last night he reiterated that he thought we were "going in different directions". I don't know where he thinks I am going, but it seems like our roads aren't crossing just yet.

I am wistful we didn't figure this out a few years ago before OW. In MC the other day, he said that this would not have come to a head if he hadn't started a R with OW. So had we corrected this before she came along, we'd have had a much better shot at staying together.

I am pleased that both of us took the chance to open up and share and that we both responded appropriately. It gave me a glimpse of what could be someday. Maybe with H, maybe with someone else.

I'm just all over the place with it.



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I think your attitude is healthy but I also think it's too soon to say it's too late. Sit with what you've heard from him for a while and keep moving forward the way you were. He can't unhear what you said either. He may feel dug in at the moment, but the future is long and life is uncertain. Your sitch is pretty new. smile

I'm interested to hear what happens next.


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Originally Posted By: rppfl


I don't know exactly. It would be fun to feel hopeful, but I don't. I'm afraid it's too late for us. H had previously told me he was "moving in a different direction" (OW). Last night he reiterated that he thought we were "going in different directions". I don't know where he thinks I am going, but it seems like our roads aren't crossing just yet.



I'm guessing just about every person on these boards has had these thoughts, however some of the situations do seem to eventually lead to reconciliation. Certainly, his relationship with the OW will have to play out first though. I've read from numerous sources how men usually don't actually leave unless there is someone waiting in the wings. His having another relationship muddies the waters too much to work on yours. Since most affairs eventually end, you'll have to see who he is then(if you are still willing at that point).

BTW - I could have written your post about not being allowed to be human- although my H reacted with wounded feelings instead of anger. I felt that if I didn't pick the perfect words to express a concern, his feeling would be hurt - so I just stopped expressing concerns.

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Abrasive to him? Yes, as noted above. Abrasive to the kids? Not in my opinion, but I'll watch for it.

Always had to have my way? I kind of feel the opposite, that he pretty much always got his way. But again, I heard it, didn't get defensive, and I'll keep an eye out for it.

I was told I always got my way too. Something I learned was that your S will rememeber it as you having it your way EVEN if he got his way but you grumbled about it or didnt whole heartedly agree with it.


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I wrote a post that got lost in this morning's downtime.

In a nutshell, my H said pretty much the same things and he was right about most of them I'm sorry to say. I'm glad you were able to hear what your H had to say without being defensive. That's a big step forward. Everyone we meet can teach us something about us.

We don't know what the road ahead holds for us, but what you each shared can certainly make whatever R you have better.

Don't spend to much time worrying about the past, look forward with your new skills and knowledge. We can't fix whats gone but we can make the future better.


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Originally Posted By: labug

In a nutshell, my H said pretty much the same things and he was right about most of them I'm sorry to say.



So labug, how did you deal with what you recognized about yourself? Awareness is a first step, but where do I go from here?



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So last night was back to limbo. Dinner, quiet evening with the girls. Nothing special. I do know that H finally went to counseling on his own yesterday, and he said they "talked about a lot", but I don't know what that means exactly. He said their next session was in two weeks, and that's supposed to be after we tell the kids. I told him that was probably good, that there might be things that he needed to process after we tell them. So, I'm happy he's finally getting some counseling on his own, hopefully that will help him figure out what he really wants. I don't know anything about the counselor, he may be pro M, he may be anti M or anywhere in between. He may be telling H to run for the hills and have fun with OW while he can. I know that my IC seems to have a view that I will be in a great R someday and that it probably won't be with H. She's not encouraging me to end it by any means, but maybe thinks she's being realistic and I'm not?? Not sure, she's not pushy about it so maybe it just falls under the category of considering possibilities and expanding horizons.



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rp,

I really struggled with not knowing if H's IC was pro or anti marriage. It's just another part of the uncontrollable puzzle.

I think your outlook is fabulous.

Keep hanging!


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Originally Posted By: Ss06
I think your outlook is fabulous.

Keep hanging!


Thanks, SS. I have a lot of good days. Two nights ago, I was a crying heap on the bathroom floor. Literally. But today is good! ;-)



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Glad to hear that today is good! Hang in there-- you will have lots to process this week too. We are here!


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From reading through your posts rppfl I see a big change in you over the last few weeks. You seem much more confident and able to cope. Your h is still at home he must have noticed the changes too. Everyone tells me the novelty of the ow soon wears off, maybe he's worried about that too and that's why he doesn't seem to be in any hurry to leave.

Whatever happens I think you're doing great, we all have our crying days. Take care x


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Thanks for the support everyone. At the one MC session we had the other day, the MC said I seemed much stronger than previously, and attributed it to the IC that I've done. Honestly, it's more you guys here on the forum than the IC. You all give me a place to vent, ask questions that make me think through things, and give me perspective.

Last night was another late night out for H (told me he was at an event for a charity organization he serves on the board of), he got home and said he was surprised that I was still awake. I fleetingly thought that he looked a little disheveled and sounded disappointed I was still awake. But then I let that go because that's mindreading and even if it's true I'm not going to address it anyway.

This morning was a non-event, I fixed his coffee like I always do, we chatted about several people and things and then I left to take D16 to school. Limbo.....how low can you go?

It seems like we are on track to tell the kids next Friday, it's what we had agreed on when he thought he had the condo deal, and I'm still proceeding that way. I bought S18 his ticket home, and have told D16 that she should be home on Friday (so we can all be together the evening your brother comes home). H has not expressed any desire to postpone the conversation, so...... eight days and counting.



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Telling the kids is usually a difficult hurdle. I remember feeling like I was going to throw up just before telling our daughter. But then afterwards I was just so disappointed in my H when I saw how upset my d was. I told him later "This must be really important to you if it's worth all this" (meaning worth upsetting D's world and emotional state).

But then also it was a great release of pressure, as I no longer had to keep the secret from daughter. And she was a great support for me, as I was for her. So we could help each other, although i was careful not to try to overburden her, and tried to lessen her emotional load as much as possible.

I hope you're able to have the same release of pressure and the support of your children. I'll keep you in my thoughts in the coming days.


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Thanks Ahoy. As much as I didn't want S, and have dreaded it, and as much as I would sacrifice my right arm not to hurt my kids, I have resigned myself to this that it's going to happen and I'm trying to focus on what happens after that. I didn't want it, but we will be OK. I didn't want my D16 to be diagnosed with a chronic autoimmune disease, I didn't want to live through Hurricane Andrew, I didn't want a lot of things. But we will be OK.

My D16 is dating a guy who is away at college right now (he's a freshman), and it happens that he's coming in next weekend. She had mentioned she was making weekend plans, and I told her I wanted her home Friday night (when we plan to tell them) and asked her to send me a schedule of what she has planned the rest of the weekend so we can agree beforehand. So she emailed me a detailed schedule this morning. Her plan is that BF picks her up from school on Friday, group activity with several people, etc. etc. etc, then spending the night with a girlfriend. Ummmm....what happened to being at home Friday night? I can insist she be there, but not without a lot of drama and suspicion aroused. Oy vey!



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I need some help here. For the third time, H is asking my advice on apartment location/size. He's framing it as asking my comfort level with possible places, do I think the girls will be comfortable, do I think the security is good enough. The first two times I simply said I'm sure you will figure it out. Do I continue that mantra? Ignore it altogether? I'm not really comfortable with either of those options. Someone help me!



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My 2 cents- Let him put on his big boy pants and figure it out himself. I think he keeps coming back for your advice because he wants you to make the decision for him.



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I helped my W by asking questions until she decided for herself. It wasn't fun. But it wasn't bad.


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I would continue with "I am sure you will figure it out." No need to help him with the S/D.


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My H did the same thing. I told him to figure it out. When he asked again I said "You can't expect me to participate in a decision I oppose." Boom, done.


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Would it be completely out of bounds to say

My opinion on where the girls would be safest and happiest is in our home. Outside that, I have no opinion.

Is that completely out of bounds?



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That sounds totally reasonable to me, but of course, I am biased. You did say one of your daughters has health problems. Does he need to take this into account when providing an environment for her? If so,that might be the one thing I would weigh in on.


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Originally Posted By: raliced
That sounds totally reasonable to me, but of course, I am biased. You did say one of your daughters has health problems. Does he need to take this into account when providing an environment for her? If so,that might be the one thing I would weigh in on.


D16 is a Type 1 diabetic. There are no special living accommodations necessary for her. He would just need to stock the correct prescriptions for her, etc. but nothing about the apartment itself would be an issue.



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Originally Posted By: rppfl
Would it be completely out of bounds to say

My opinion on where the girls would be safest and happiest is in our home. Outside that, I have no opinion.

Is that completely out of bounds?


Just bumping this up for more input. Obviously, I'm in a total spin about this......



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Would that response draw him closer or push him away?

I wonder if an honest response like, "you know, I'm not totally comfortable discussing this with you, but I trust that you'll make a decision that will be good for our daughters, given the circumstances."

He cares about your opinion and judgement as a mom. That is a good sign, no?


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Originally Posted By: claire7


He cares about your opinion and judgement as a mom. That is a good sign, no?



He probably thinks its a brilliant piece of coparenting on his behalf. Ha!



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Originally Posted By: rppfl
Would it be completely out of bounds to say

My opinion on where the girls would be safest and happiest is in our home. Outside that, I have no opinion.

Is that completely out of bounds
Originally Posted By: claire7
Would that response draw him closer or push him away?



At the moment I really don't care. I am pissed that I am having to think about my kids being happy and safe anywhere else besides their home and I just don't want anything to do with it. Anyone want to talk some sense into me? So far I have managed not to reply at all.



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RPP,

Your h is a grown man. To me, it almost sounds like he wants you to help or your approval. I think," h, I'm sure you will pick a nice, safe place." And then leave it. I (and this is just my opinion) don't think every answer brings someone closer or pushes them away. It's simply the answer to a question. And I hope no one took that as snark. I just believe that everything doesn't need to be so contrived. Your h wants to move out. He knows you don't want this. He is looking for a place and it sounds like he wants you to approve. I dunno. That's why I think a simple response that you are sure he will find a good place is sufficient.

Just my 2 cents.

Last edited by Georgiabelle; 10/03/14 01:56 AM.


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Would this be an appropriate time to confuse the heck out of him and tell him you trust his judgment?

Good luck. I'm sure you will make the right decision. Choosing not to respond is still a response.


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Originally Posted By: bdub
Would this be an appropriate time to confuse the heck out of him and tell him you trust his judgment?


Bdub that's what I told him the first two times he asked. Today he asked again. And then reminded me he was waiting for an answer. That's why I'm questioning should I do the same thing again. He's not getting the message apparently.



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I'm with bdub. No response is still a response. I think that is a perfectly acceptable response too.


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They think that if they are happy everyone else will be, regardless of their hurtful choices. Pure delusion.


I love this, Ahoy.


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I like Georgiabelle's advice much better than my own! Sounds polite and detached. But I suppose if he keeps asking, you can either not reply at all, or perhaps validate in some way-- something like, 'I hear you that you'd like me to weigh in on your decisions, and as I said, I'm sure you will find a safe, nice place for you and our Ds. Good luck.'

Something like that? (Georgiabelle, what do you think?)


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I'm not sure why you need to validate what's already been validated which is you trust that he will secure a nice place to live. I don't really think there is anything else to say. Will the kids like it or be happy with this sitch? Probably not. However, you Rpp, can only remind then how much you love them and that you are there for them. Trying to placate your h by saying "I think they will live this" to perhaps make him feel better seems disingenuous.

It doesn't sound like there is a concern with your h being able to handle the medical condition? If that came up for discussion, then that's different terrain if your h has questions.

I apologize if this is a mini hijack. However, I think I have figured one thing out (said woman who has zero experience with divorce and was married to a man where divorce is about as common as a koala bear in a US back yard). None of this feels *fair* (whatever that means). You won't like it and probably will never understand it. If you try to decipher crazy, you will only drive yourself crazy. It sukks-I know. However, I do think it's best to *respect* that their actions indicate they don't want to be in a R with you right now. Can that change? Absolutely. Take the focus off them. Focus on you and your kids. Maybe they miss their old life or maybe they are in search of that elusive happy capsule with green grass and the letter I dotted with hearts. However, don't put your life on hold hoping they realize what they walked away from. Make changes you want and focus on making your life all that I can be. Regardless of what happens, you can be much better than just fine:-)

Just my very humble opinion. Happy Friday peeps!

Last edited by Georgiabelle; 10/03/14 12:37 PM.


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Quote:
None of this feels *fair* (whatever that means). You won't like it and probably will never understand it. If you try to decipher crazy, you will only drive yourself crazy.


Wise words


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This is how it all played out. Hit me upside the head if you must.


H: (Paragraphs explaining pros and cons of different options.)So, I’d like your input here because part of the driving force for me is what will make the girls happier and safer when they’re with me. You need to be comfortable with the elements too. Thoughts?


Me: My thoughts are that our girls are happier and safer in their own home with us raising them together. Any decision outside that is yours to make. I will never be comfortable with anything else.
When we brought (S18) home from the hospital, I was in pain, tired, unsure of my mothering, stressed that this little baby wasn’t eating well, and felt pressure to be hostess to the friends and neighbors dropping by unannounced. I was in our bedroom struggling to feed him and the doorbell rang. You looked me in the eye and said, “Take all the time you need,” and went to answer the door. In that moment, you chose what was best and safest for our son, and I will never forget it. I trust you to choose an apartment that is nice and safe for our daughters.



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Sufficient response!



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You sound like you handled it very well Rppfl. I hope he lets it go now. Good for you. Put that one in the win column for the day.


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Yeah, don't go there, rppfl. Just tell him "I trust you to be able to decide what is best." And leave it at that. Unless he's moving into a crack house or some other sketchy part of town...

My H didn't give me any input whatsoever into the place he rented when he moved out. At the time, it made me angry, but then again, I wouldn't want to be involved in picking out the place he was going to leave me for. Hang in there.


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Score one for rppfl!


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Thanks, everyone. I don't know why this was such a big deal to me. I think maybe because it was part of a larger conversation about the timing of telling the kids. We wanted all three of them to be together, but the logistics of the weekend is making that difficult. H and I had exchanged several emails about it all when the topic of the "safe and happy" apartment location came up.

I realize that part of my heartburn is that we are apparently forging ahead with this conversation even though H doesn't actually have a place to go yet. It just makes it seem very real and for those of you have read more than two or three of my posts, you know that the actual moving out is just a HUGE mental hurdle for me.

H was out of town last night, returning today, and we have a party tonight at which we will get to socialize with 150 of our closest friends. None of them are divorced, not kidding.



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Quote:
H was out of town last night, returning today, and we have a party tonight at which we will get to socialize with 150 of our closest friends. None of them are divorced, not kidding

You can do this (and i say this just as much for yo as I'm saying it for me too) Enjoy the party and don't you dare feel sad for going through this around these people. You didn't do this. He did.


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Stay strong rpp.

telling the kids was HARD. I didnt want to tell them until closer to W leaving. However, telling them early did allow us a lot of time to answer questions and resolve issues. I drive S13 to school every day and to soccer 3 times a week. We talked a lot durnig those times and he had a new question almost every day.

Im sure you know the basics. United front, its not their fault, you still love them etc.
I would also throw in : be as honest as you can but details are not really that important.

3 nights ago S13 did tell W that he wished she would have left the day we broke the news to them so that she could have been back by now. We apparently were not clear enough about the timing and the duration.


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Just because none of them are divorced doesn't mean they don't have their own struggles in the marriages that you might not know about. Don't compare or lament. It will do you no good.
As for telling the kids, there's a lot of stress leading up to it, and a lot of mitigating their confusion and pain afterwards. But it is survivable -- for all of you.


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Originally Posted By: Ahoy
Just because none of them are divorced doesn't mean they don't have their own struggles in the marriages that you might not know about. Don't compare or lament. It will do you no good.


You are right, it does me no good to compare and lament. The other day my IC said that when word of our S started getting out, people would have different reactions. Some might feel sorry for me, some might envy me. I stopped her right there and asked who on earth would envy me? She said I had no idea of the state of people's marriages, and some would be envious that I was "free" and they weren't. Interesting perspective. I can't really believe that right now, but it's something to consider. (Right now I feel like I'm a pathetic failure and all my friends have wonderful, loving, fulfilling marriages. Obviously, that can't be true of everyone I know.)



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One of the first people to talk to me was someone I see around town and I am friendly with. Not specifically a friend. He said to me that he wanted to end his M and needed to get out. I was shocked. I always rather envied their relationship.

A good friend of mine shared with me that his parents split for over a year when he was a young boy. FLOORED me.

Then, I had a mutual friend "confront" me and "scold" me for leaving my W and family. I took the time to straighten her out and as she was leaving I asked her how many people she had spread that rumor too. Oops, should not have done that.

The point is, things are very rarely as they appear.


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Of all the people in my circle, I know ONE couple with a truly enviable marriage of the sort I want for myself. The rest are in states of disrepair ranging from worse than mine (!! Yes - people still living together who are worse off than me & my H) to just kind of meh or I don't have a clear sense of how they're faring.


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