Please help me

[25yearsmlc]

I have read DR and would like to hear from people who are separated and their spouse is having an affair. I have no contact with H and understand that I need to wait for him to initiate contact. But how long do I wait? Last week I asked him to make arrangements with D23 and D18 when he wants to see them and to meet them away from our home. I made this request so that I won't have to experience falling apart (in front of him) each time he leaves. Also I told him I could not see him while he is involved with OW. I'm wondering if it was a mistake to do this because now I have absolutely no contact with H and he will be unable to see any changes I'm making in myself.

My h and I were sep for 2 years (more or less, bc every few weeks or every 6 weeks, he'd visit). The first year he lived 300 miles away and visited most weekends, and then he moved to Alaska, which is 3000 miles away...and did NOT visit much...) The thing about being apart a lot is that the changes you do make, are a lot easier to notice when you are not together all the time.

Since you have no choice anyhow, you may as well make the best of it and see the best in it. (Makes sense?)


What are your changes, specifically? And when you said you had not had sex for years, how did YOU feel about that?
What did you think it said about the marriage and what did you think HE felt about that?

I'm not trying to shame or blame you.

But I do have to ask you if some physical or emotional problem, prevented having sex more often than never?

I heard a man describe how HE felt after having no sex in the marriage for over a year. He said "I was right next to her for years and she made it clear she did not want me that way...and I was so lonely those nights, with her right next to me. It hurt like hell, almost every single night...for years."

IF your h felt that^^ way, then it will take longer for him to "Unlearn" those feelings of rejection. You will somehow need to convey to him that you ARE NOT COLD - and that you are awake and desiring of him, now. Yet you must do this without pursuing him. You can show your warmth in other ways (touching without sex IS possible. Hugs, pats on the back, rubs on the back, flirty "spanks", and complimenting his appearance are a few things you can do without pursuing if you do them authentically. Like if he DOES look handsome in that blue shirt, tell him. But do it without expecting anything reciprocal. At all.


Have you apologized to him for the things you feel you did wrong in the marriage?

What would HE SAY about you or the m, that you think is valid? And what would YOU SAY about the marriage that you wish had been different?

BTW, if you think I'm being unfair to you b/c I'm only asking you about your flaws, know this: you are here trying to save your m, and he is not. So that's it. I mean, there's nothing about HIM that I can change or help with, but we might be able to help YOU, b/c you are here asking...(make sense?)

I DO think that there is hope b/c he's not being mean to you, and he's still in contact with the d's, and b/c he stayed a long time in a m that was probably not fulfilling to him....so there is love there, under his wounds. He'll need time and new tools (both of you need New Tools for the marriage that you then USE).

Are you afraid of being divorced, or are you afraid of being divorced from him?

Meaning, since you admit the m was not very good for some time, exactly what is it you are going to miss about it?

Be sure to identify the wounded ego versus the genuine & specific loss of him.

And btw, we all have egos and I'm NOT passing judgment on that. I'm not saying "Oh, that's JUST your ego being hurt" b/c that really does hurt. We are made up of lots of pieces and our ego is an important piece.

But it's also important to realize that our spouses are not responsible for our egos, or our happiness; we are. They are not in charge of our happiness, we are. And we are not responsible for their happiness, they are, and only they are (and only we are in charge of our own).

Last but not least, you say he had this affair before, correct? So you must have chosen to stay married despite the affair, correct?

How did you come to that choice? And how did things change when you decided to reconcile? How did you forgive him before, or did you? Did you throw the A in his face or withhold affection from him b/c of it?

If nothing changed from before, it's going to be a bit harder for him to believe those things can change---meaning it'll take longer. I say "do the math", which means

consistent change + sufficient time = change he can believe in.


So to be clear, what are the changes you are making? Any 180s?

REMEMBER You have to counter his negative images (the reasons he uses to justify leaving ) with positives so that he can begin to doubt his decisions. Don't fuel his negative images with more behaviors he does not want (being miserable and needy is NOT something that will attract him to you. So showing him that, will backfire as will attempts to make him feel guilty.

When spouses feel guilt then tend to blame.

You want him to think "Oh, wait, maybe she is not that bad, or maybe she WAS that way but is not anymore, (or never was??)
but bottom line is my data about her, isn't accurate NOW b/c she is changing.."


And eventually you want him to realize he's losing a great catch. Sadly, there are times that only OW or OM can wake up a spouse to realize that they've been taking their spouse for granted.

So stop obsessing about OW

and start the 180s and absolutely DO GAL, so you can detach and get yourself happier and more "together"...and read these newbie "rules"

(I use quotes b/c they are NOT "RULES", these are guidelines based on the books advice and they are helpful.)


RE the "newbie rules".... don't just skim them, take these in and begin implementing them.

And post often and please, please process what we tell you. Do not skim our replies to see if there is a magic bullet or one paragraph solution. There's no easy answer. This is work.

But it's a marathon, not a sprint.


THERE IS STILL HOPE.

So you know, I gave my m a 10% chance of lasting, back in 2006....and here I am.
Okay?

I'll finish your whole thread and post more later.. Hang in there!

[25yearsmlc]

In addition to the mental turmoil, I am having physical symptoms also. Does anyone else get the icy/hot flashes when horrible thoughts enter your mind?

I developed (or aggravated??) an irregular heart rate for real! Had to get on a beta blocker. Yeah, it was that bad. About the only "good" thing was the weight loss from the grief/fury diet but that sure came at a high price.

But on the other hand, I did, eventually, become a much stronger and kinder person. I have to admit that I'm a better woman for all this, b/c I dug deep and looked inside and found some things I DID need to change.

It was scary and hard as he11 but so very worth it. Anyhow, here are those "DB newbie 'rules' that are of course merely guidelines. There is NO one size fits all approach AND some of the advice will simply not apply to your situation.

If there is something in the list that is the opposite of your situation, such as you were one to NOT talk much, and you want to do a 180, then you'd reach out more, verbally, not less. (Whereas the DB newbie rules tend to suggest you say LESS not more, it depends on what your "normal" behavior was before and what was a problem, versus a strength in the m....)

I knew my anger was consuming me and was preventing me from really being there for my kids. My youngest now, is a senior in high school and needs me a lot for these college apps and the whole "last year at home" experience. Not to mention senior year being FUN and memorable and not centered around a parent's divorce...( I also faced lousy timing for sure).

But we must make the best of the cards we were dealt and not keep whining about the lousy hand. After all, the "game" is still going on.

Here are the "rules"....(which I copied, reduced and laminated to carry around with me for the first months I was here).

Along with a few "mantras" that helped me. Also if you are religious, TURN THIS OVER TO GOD...

I'd say "God, I turn this marriage (or "my anger/pain") over to You."


Thinking ^^^ this, and then saying it, and then hearing myself say it, ALL helped it sink in.

So when H would call, I'd be a lot calmer. Never "lost it" with him after I began doing the "turn it over" thing. And losing our tempers with them is a bad idea.

(Just fuels their desire to flee) But I had to do something to keep my temper in check. I felt his choices were VERY UNFAIR to me, but losing my temper helped no one.

When I thought "But I should be angry! H does not deserve me letting go of my bad feelings and anger and pain, b/c he's been so unfair and selfish....ETC"

I remembered what I heard somewhere around here.

"Holding onto anger to hurt someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire,

to get smoke in their eyes."


Food for thought, eh?

Newbie Guidelines/Rules To Survive

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

***5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

***6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

***7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

***12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

****17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse. ****

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.

**21. NEVER lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

**23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!


24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking, and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). Sometimes the right thing to say, is nothing.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever, and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

**32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

**34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes, where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Know that in time, you really will be happy again, regardless of your spouse’s choices. Know this, believe it, and let it show.

39. Do not believe that showing your spouse your pain and misery proves your love for them. It just makes it harder to be around you.

40. Don’t worry about how the past is viewed. What matters is this day "now and from this day forward.” Learn to let go of the past, & all that you cannot control. It’s a lot to let go of, but it is so freeing.

[25yearsmlc]

DGB,

First I send you HUGS ((((( !! ))))

and now, for some inspiration - you may want to view some TED TALKS on youtube.

One is by Shawn Achor called "The Power of Positivity" (or something similar) and Amy Cuddy's on "Faking it til You Become it". Both talks are about 20 min long and pretty easy to watch, very entertaining and high energy.

and both of them have real data that shows how we can think differently and then BECOME changed people. Like we are changing from the outside in, if you know what I mean. Besides, I believe the real journey in life is an inward one and though this hurts deeply, it's a journey well worth taking.

Plus, you are on the journey anyhow, like it or not. May as well get the good stuff out of it too. Make sense?

Just watch the videos and see what I mean. Very helpful AND very hopeful.

Good luck!

[dgb60]

That's what I was thinking, Jefe. Seems like the thought of it all is constantly there on my mind. I can't make it go away. I can think about other things but the other mess is there and I can feel it and it appears to have taken up permanent residence.

[dgb60]

Thank you for the advice 25yearsmlc. I really appreciate you keeping it real. I am looking inward and accepting my part in the demise of the M. Physical and mental issues contributed to the sex-less-ness of the M including fertility treatments, ovarian cysts and endometriosis. My pulling back caused him to be angry and resentful, which caused me to pull back even further. It was a vicious cycle and I wish I would have stopped it.

H has only had the affair that is related to this situation - we have never had a previous reconciliation.

How will H notice my changes if I go dark?

[dgb60]

When this began, H said he wanted to be friends with me and that he cares for me deeply just not in a romantic way. I have never been the one to initiate contact and he rarely does since moving out. This last week he texted me "goodnight" and I did not respond and then yesterday he texted me "have a good day" and I did not respond. I'm not trying to be mean. I just find it incredibly painful to hear from him and am wondering if I am doing the right thing by not responding to his texts. I am trying to send the message that I do not want to be his friend. I will be friend-LY if I see him but I cannot be his friend. I have asked that he meet D17 and D23 somewhere other than our home when he wants to see them or arrange to visit when I am not home. I just can't see him because it is too painful for me and I do not want to act needy around him. He is having an A and I feel like I am just making it very easy for him to carry on with OW. I am working on myself and making changes but how will H ever see that I am changing? Has anyone else done what I am doing?

[Jefe]

You keep working on you. He'll notice when it's time.

As for the texts, I don't send ANY of my friends a "Goodnight" text. He's trying to reach out. Not saying it means anything, but at least he is thinking about you.

Not sure the vets would agree but its what I see.

[Mozza]

I agree that your H will notice your changes when it's time. Working on you can take a few weeks or months, until you develop new skills, a new wardrobe, a positive attitude, etc. We have to resist the urge to show every little step along the way so as to surprise them later with a new person. I agree it's awfully difficult to be patient in the meantime. In fact, you're ahead of me because taking actions to make changes is much harder for me than doing the "passive" things like not communicating.

@25yearsmic Thanks a lot for your answers; they are inspiring even if they're not about my own situation. I'm very interested to read full stories of people who went through it with the DB method. Do you have a thread where you tell your story? Thanks!

[25yearsmlc]

When this began, H said he wanted to be friends with me and that he cares for me deeply just not in a romantic way. I have never been the one to initiate contact and he rarely does since moving out.

So how is not responding to his outreach, new for you? Isn't it more of the same old behavior?

This last week he texted me "goodnight" and I did not respond and then yesterday he texted me "have a good day" and I did not respond. I'm not trying to be mean. I just find it incredibly painful to hear from him and am wondering if I am doing the right thing by not responding to his texts. I am trying to send the message that I do not want to be his friend.

I think he gets that. I"m just not sure how it helps you.


I will be friend-LY if I see him but I cannot be his friend. I have asked that he meet D17 and D23 somewhere other than our home when he wants to see them or arrange to visit when I am not home. I just can't see him because it is too painful for me and I do not want to act needy around him.


For now that MAY be necessary. But at some point you will need to see those interactions (in which you are present) as opportunities for him to see the new you.

He is having an A and I feel like I am just making it very easy for him to carry on with OW.

How would you propose making it harder for him? What is your goal here? Seems to me the way to make it harder, is to make him second guess his choice, which is by you becoming more tempting as his wife, NOT by being someone who punishes him for not loving her enough.

Again, I'm not clear on the goal here^^.


I am working on myself and making changes but how will H ever see that I am changing? Has anyone else done what I am doing?

What is it you see yourself as "doing" right now? I'm being serious. You are going dark on him....YES others have done that.

But I see that as you trying to protect yourself and Not as you trying to reconcile. Am I missing something?

[dgb60]

I'm in protection mode for myself because I am feeling like a giant blob of anguish and despair. I know this sounds heavy duty but it's honestly the way I feel. I would like to reconcile but it's too painful for me to have contact with him at this point since he is having A. Will be working on myself. Wondering if not responding to his texts is a mistake and if I should try to "be friends" despite the enormous pain. I would continue to not initiate contact but would respond to texts at least and maybe be home when he visits D17 and D23. So confused as to what to do.