Feels like an eternity (Mindsin - part. 3)

[mindsin]

but your reaction seems defensive. Is it the present circumstances or would you usually react this way?

It's the present circumstance. I normally am very receptive of her advice. I think part of my reaction also had to do with the fact that I'm working really hard to be independent and I felt she was undermining this.

Are you embarrassed that she wasn't more proud? Are you a bit taken aback that she expressed the belief you should have held out for more? Is it a done deal?

No. I knew she would have a neutral to negative reaction when I told her the offer (which is more than what I'm making now, but probably much less than what she thinks I should be making). Yes, it is a done deal. I told her that I was OK taking a little less because this is such a great opportunity and will really turbo-boost my career. I told her there was value in that which supercedes my initial salary. She hesitantly agreed.

Are you reading into her words or did SHE SAY she thought you could have gotten more etc? Is the real reason it bothers you, b/c down deep she might have a point? How do you feel about the talk, now?

She actually said it. She said my counteroffer should have been higher. She 'might' have a point, but it was a chance I was not willing to take. Anytime a counteroffer is made, there is a chance that their 2nd choice candidate looks attractive enough to rescind the offer and move forward with the other guy.

Do you see how earning more would affect your family? Have you had financial problems in the past?

We didn't have financial problems, but I have contributed negatively to our finances -- most significantly the money I spent on the escorts. I was also fired from several jobs over the last 10 years and she sees me as someone who is a failure in my career.

Mindsink, do you have any sense as to why she asked you this^^ question?

To me, it's a clear (glow in the dark) she feels she is NOT attractive to you. That also explains to her, the escort services....PLUS you told her you did Not love her and never did! Yes,

sure you "retracted" that comment but it's still out there. Just b/c WE SAY "I take it back" does not mean it's not still hurting her.

That is very hard to believe. Through the years, I've always been very physical with her (a little too touchy-feely, if you ask her). I always tell her how beautiful she is and rebut anything she says to the contrary.

So she has cause for deep pain and good cause to doubt your feelings for her. Even now your answers seem too vague and as if you won't blurt out anything risky. Saying "I feel the same as I did"....well that sounds like "I'll treat you the same".

Ugh! You're absolutely right.

IF you are asked a direct & emotional question, and IF you decide to answer it, answer it fully and answer it well. Maybe --

"I love you very much. The single upside to this whole ordeal is that I realize how incredibly lucky I was to have you as my mate; you're gorgeous and sexy and so smart and have been such a good mom to our children. I want to grow old with you and I'm excited about the changes I'm making to become the h you deserve"...now, that is an answer she'd recall.

It is pursuit but like I said, IF you are going to answer a direct, important emotional question at all, then do it right and with full honesty. It's alright to tell her you are concerned that if she knows how you really feel, she'll flee b/c it sounds so passionate and intense (which is appealing!!)...

Good stuff, 25. But the reason why I held back is exactly that -- because I felt it was too much pursuit.

Also note that in your backstory you DO blame your wife for your choice to see OWs.... You say "she didn't like sex" and maybe that is true...but did you ever ask her WHY?

Did you ever ask her how you could please her more and do it? You just wrote it off to her not liking sex, but the thing is, she must like sex now, or she would not be with OM.

You know what though...if I put in the effort to be intimate with her, she almost always responded positively. It was just MY desire for her to initiate. She wants to feel wanted, and so did I. I felt like I was doing all the work, so I wasn't sure if she wanted me, or was just doing it to "get it out of the way" so I'll leave her alone. I never had that deep conversation with her though. I was such a fool!

She's asking you if you are really committed to being with her in a new or different (BETTER) way. She's still hurt from how you negated the marriage to her, (right when she'd just met OM. I wonder if it was your pride talking to tell her more or less "So what? I don't care"..???)

I don't think I ever gave her that impression (so what - i don't care). I sure hope not anyways.

Mindsink, Remember the letter I posted to you from another WAW? You never commented much on it, but that letter could have been written by your wife. Did you see that?

Yes I do. I actually showed it to her a while back and asked if this is how she feels (probably not smart). She said yes.

What did YOU say in reply to ^^ that?? It's pretty significant.

I didn't say anything really. I only listened. I simply looked at her in the eyes and nodded the whole time.

well, what did they tell her?

They told her that she is not the right girl for me, and I'm not the right man for her. She said that her friends made her realize that we're incompatible with each other.

And don't talk to your FIL about your wife's visits to OM....that has to be a bad bad idea...

He asks me. "Has she been staying home?" "Where is she going this weekend?" I feel comfortable telling him. He has seemed to make a much more enthusiastic stance in trying to save my marriage lately (since I came back from my trip). Why do you think this is a bad idea?

See above. I'm sorry for your pain, I hope it will make you into a more empathetic partner in the future. I also hope you'll discuss with your coach some possible ways to respond to her future inquiries.

I feel strongly that her attraction to OM is at least partly due to feeling attractive to him.

Next time she asks you a question that reveals such a vulnerable side to her (when she's naked is about as vulnerable a time that exists) please be more affirming and clear and specific.

Why you are attracted to her and what about her physically and emotionally and mentally, etc.

NOT the 'I love you so much b/c you are loving"..(which is like saying "I love you BECAUSE you love me" which makes no one feel special)

..be specific with the compliments, remark about traits and qualities in her that you admire or love. Can you do that if she gives you the chance again? She wants to know she'll be treated better and that you won't change back if she returns.

I felt sorry for her when I read that question.

Good luck MS, you are working hard and making changes that I truly think will benefit you more than you can tell at this point.

Thank you very much.

Question -- I was thinking of writing her an e-mail to sort of revisit some of those questions she asked me the night we had dinner. You noted that I inadequately answered or addressed several of them, and I agree. I want to make it known to her that she is the most beautiful woman in the world to me and that this whole ordeal has made me realize just how special she is. The love I feel for her now is stronger than I ever remember it being. I also want to address the comparison she made to a physical abused woman. I want to let her know that I understand why she feels that way and apologize for making her feel that way.

Do you think it's too late at this point? Maybe I just need to answer better next time I get the chance to. I feel like I hold back on a lot of my responses to her. I'm not being 100% honest because I fear so much that I will say too much, or sound too desperate, etc.

[MrBond]

Read carefully what 25 commented to you. In many of your responses, your pride still shines through.

That's why your W hasn't been trusting in your changes. Plus, you never mentioned that you lost so many jobs. Like the escorts, it does seem like it was a matter of you doing what you want and not considering a woman's basic need for security (incl. financial security) of her and her children.

[mindsin]

MrBond - you are right.

I will confess -- this will be the first time (since the start of my career) that I will be leaving a job on my terms (not getting laid off or fired), and it feels great. Tomorrow I'll be resigning and I'm VERY nervous about confronting my manager.

Last night, my W gave me some very good advice on how to talk to my manager and manage the logistics of this transition. I am thankful for that.

[mindsin]

Birthday

Her birthday is tomorrow and I'm starting to get anxious. I found myself wanting to get her a card with some heart-felt words from me. My DB coach suggested that I simply get her a card and gift "from the kids".

After her appreciation of the cake I got her on Saturday (birthday dinner with her parents and our kids), I'm starting to think that she is perhaps more receptive to my acts of thoughtfulness than I had thought, even though they technically qualify as pursuit.

On Saturday night, she thanked me for the cake. I played it off by saying, "well our son did a great job picking it out".

Sunday morning, she took the time again to thank me via text.

"I want to thank you for getting me the birthday cake. That was very sweet and thoughtful (and obviously unexpected from my PoV)!

I simply replied, "You're very welcome".

[u-turn]

Hey mindsin-I like the idea of the cards and gift coming from the kids. It allows you to be thoughtful as you want, it allows the kids to get attention, and it is understood where it all came from - you.

My kids are older, but I would still try to redirect these occasions back to them.

[mindsin]

I blew it this morning

So I sent a text to my W thanking her for her advice in how to handle my resignation. I resigned from my job this morning.

She replied that she's always been my biggest supporter and is proud of me. She asked if it felt good.

(Here's where it went downhill...)

Me: Feels good, but to be honest, it's a little bitter sweet because of what's going on with us.

W: I understand. Sometimes life takes us on unexpected twists and turns. I believe everything I go through is a learning experience.

Me: Up until 3 months ago, you have always been my lighthouse. Just know that I will always be yours.

Last Friday at dinner, I said that my feelings for you have never changed. I was wrong.

My love for you is stronger now than it has ever been. It flows through my soul like an energy that serves as a driving force in everything I do. And it kills me every day that I can't express this love to you. I am trying as best as I can to give you your space. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

Ugh!!! Did I do a lot of damage to myself here???

[25yearsmlc]

MrBond - you are right.

I will confess -- this will be the first time (since the start of my career) that I will be leaving a job on my terms (not getting laid off or fired), and it feels great. Tomorrow I'll be resigning and I'm VERY nervous about confronting my manager.

Last night, my W gave me some very good advice on how to talk to my manager and manage the logistics of this transition. I am thankful for that.

This^^ is good stuff!

Don't burn bridges with your present boss. You want to leave on good or at least decent terms. Saying the new job will give you the chance at more responsibility than you believe you'll get where you are now, and or more room for advancement and a better salary/benefits etc MAY make your boss want to compete with them.

Be ready to be resolute, if you really are.

Also as a side note, here are some things about the salary negotiations in the future that I learned b/c I had great mentoring from a headhunter's corporation on this issue.

You will NOT get passed over for a job b/c a counter offer is too high IF You word it in a way that isn't stubborn or a "take it or leave it" way. I've never heard of that. I HAVE heard of idiotically worded counters that get rejected but it's not the number that got them rejected; it was their arrogance.

You can also counter with something like 'you offered 'x' and I think that's pretty far from the number I had in mind, based on what I bring to the table and how good a fit we are with each other.

So, Is your first offer a 'final offer"?

(It's VERY rare that a potential employer will only give you one offer. They are almost always prepared to move upwards, with the only exception to that being a government job. Even there, I've been able to get step increases to meet my needs in the event that the "rank" is only such and such. I have been given that "rank + years of experience" to make it right even if the years are not exact.

I've also said "so is your first offer your final offer" and never been told "yes".

I've tried not to counter too specifically b/c I want them to come up with the numbers, but I'd again point to my potential or past contributions (e.g. "raising their 3rd party recovery by 30% in 6 months", etc).

When I've accepted what I thought was a bit low b/c of other advantages, which it sounds as if you are doing, I've also said "well, I think that's a bit low given what I expect to contribute - so how about I accept your offer and you agree to review my salary in 3/6 months, rather than waiting a full year"? That way they can better assess your value.

SO far, every time I've said that,^^ they have agreed

and every time I've gotten the 6 month review, I've gotten a substantial raise. Usually something like 25-33% more than the starting salary.

My last job offered me a very decent acceptable amount, but I paused to swallow a little water and to process it. In those few seconds, the employer increased it by A LOT, just b/c my silence sounded like a rejection, I guess.

That was the Most "profitable STFU" moment of my life...

Just food for thought. I learned that from Challenger, Gray & Christmas which is a great headhunter's corporation. Good training. ANYHOW, I digress...

Good luck at your job(s).

[25yearsmlc]

I blew it this morning

So I sent a text to my W thanking her for her advice in how to handle my resignation. I resigned from my job this morning.

She replied that she's always been my biggest supporter and is proud of me. She asked if it felt good.

(Here's where it went downhill...)

Me: Feels good, but to be honest, it's a little bitter sweet because of what's going on with us.

W: I understand. Sometimes life takes us on unexpected twists and turns. I believe everything I go through is a learning experience.

Me: Up until 3 months ago, you have always been my lighthouse. Just know that I will always be yours.

Last Friday at dinner, I said that my feelings for you have never changed. I was wrong.

My love for you is stronger now than it has ever been. It flows through my soul like an energy that serves as a driving force in everything I do. And it kills me every day that I can't express this love to you. I am trying as best as I can to give you your space. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

Ugh!!! Did I do a lot of damage to myself here???

We can't tell b/c you didn't say what her reaction was. But drop it now. You also need to take your DB Coach's advice MORE, not less.

How'd you handle the birthday?

[mindsin]

My DB coach must be the busiest one of the group. Yesterday, I scheduled one session a week away. That was her earliest availability.

I simply said happy birthday to her this morning. She later sent me an e-mail saying that she suspects that I and/or the kids have something in store for her (we do).

She said she will be having dinner with the OM, and come back home for a couple of hours. Then she'll be leaving again to spend the night.

[25yearsmlc]

Read carefully what 25 commented to you. In many of your responses, your pride still shines through.

That's why your W hasn't been trusting in your changes. Plus, you never mentioned that you lost so many jobs. Like the escorts, it does seem like it was a matter of you doing what you want and not considering a woman's basic need for security (incl. financial security) of her and her children.

THIS^^^ IS GOLDEN advice Mind's. Feeling secure is mandatory for a woman to stay in a marriage.

Some women stay in mediocre marriages solely b/c the man is a good provider.
So taking that security away or undermining it, by losing jobs or mismanaging money, is a deal breaker for many. Add to that, the escorts and you can see her point of view a bit more, yes?