What's most paralyzing now is you fear of losing your family. The worst case scenario is your children live in a broken home and you stop being married to a cheater and pathological liar. Divorce is bad for children -- all the studies show it. However what's worse is you remaining in an abusive marriage where you are cuckolded and psychologically emasculated daily. Your health with collapse if you put up with it long term. I thought a divorce was a death sentence -- but it's not. The best case scenario is your restore your marriage, the next best case is your divorce with dignity and rebuild a life for yourself. The worst case if you keep your head in the sand, get emotionally and physically sick, and eventually get dragged into a financial ruinous divorce and remain bitter for years. Think of options, A, B and C.
Thanks, Tarheel- no doubt, timing is my big dilemma here. DR advises patience, and the MLC folks here seem wiling to wait yeas for the WS to work though things, but the vets with success stories all stay a hard stand earlier is the best course. I feel like my whole life is resting on this decision- such a hard hard call to make.
Me: 45 W:43 M: 15, T:21 2 Kids- S-14, D-12 A Started: 10/2013 Discovered as EA: 6/2014, as PA: 7/2014 A changing, not ending Start DB'ing 9/2014 Same house, same bed
and the MLC folks here seem wiling to wait yeas for the WS to work though things . . .
with strong boundaries in place. Any good vet MLC'er will tell you that it's more important than EVER if you're going to "stand" for any length of time.
Also, the MLC landscape is littered with a lot of pain and damage in that amount of time, if you don't do it right. Only the cream of the crop can pull it off, in my observation. I don't believe that 95% of men can go more than 6 months without severe damage to their emotional well-being.
Waiting saps your strength and makes her lose respect for you.
Living in denial is toxic for you and your children.
IF you sit in limbo your wife will serial cheat until she finds her "soul-mate" and then she'll divorce you. By that time you'll be too worn out to even know what you want anymore.
Sometimes ultimatums are the one thing that people respect. They show that you are there, that you have self-esteem and that you are real. No one is attracted to a cuckold.
There are guys in this forum that temporarily saved their marriages by "Getting a life" being the best husband they could be and "nicing" their wives back into the marriage. Here's what happened: sooner or later the husbands slipped back into their normal behavior. Their wives (who never owned up to the pain and suffering they caused their families) and ended up self-soothing by cheating again.
Also don't forget the male/female dynamics which are more real than we want to admit. Part of your attractiveness is "manning up".
All, really appreciate your willingness to help and your advices. I realize I need to man up- I see how W can have no respect for a man who tolerates this behavior.
So how do I convey strength and start down the D path without speeding into a D I'd like to avoid?
Ask her to work with me on terms for a D (with a mediator) so that the impact on our children and finances are minimized? Simply lawyer up?
Something like "I told you I would not work on this marriage while your A continued and asked for a separation. You asked for some additional time to work out your thoughts and you have used that time to further disrespect me and this M. A divorce is not my choice, but I will not tolerate being treated in this way. Let me know by Thursday if you are willing to meet with a mediator to work out terms for our divorce. If I do not hear from you I will be retaining an attorney. I will discuss terms of our divorce or issues concerning our children, but otherwise I have nothing to say to you." Then I go dark. Is this it? Could I talk about separation rather than divorce and maintain credibility? This is just so hard when D isn't my goal.
Me: 45 W:43 M: 15, T:21 2 Kids- S-14, D-12 A Started: 10/2013 Discovered as EA: 6/2014, as PA: 7/2014 A changing, not ending Start DB'ing 9/2014 Same house, same bed
No. No grand pronouncements (especially legal ones -- never tip your hand legally). Whatever you decide you need to do, just DO. She's a big girl and will understand that it's a consequence of her continuing to violate your core boundary.
Look, no one's telling you to do this. But it has to at least be on the table, and you SHOULD know what your legal rights (and responsibilities) are anyway. Get more info, and be prepared for any eventuality. Only YOU can decide when you can no longer remain in the marriage -- that's not for any of us to decide. We can only point out to you some of the pitfalls of "limbo" that you may not be seeing clearly right now.
I ultimately had to file (hired an atty, hired a mediator). I also saved my marriage.
Take a long, hard look at theoden's list. Truth in every single point. Point 7 is without a doubt the hardest one to come to terms with, but it is essential to putting a plan together for YOU, for your life.
As with anything in life, your best chance at getting what you want is to first know what you want. Make your plan, knowing the only one you can really count on is you. It is a painful process, but very empowering. It will force you to confront what you want to do with your life, and how you want to live it.
I believe the confidence this builds is not only healthy for you, but projects you in the best light to your W. She may or may not care, but if you make your plan based on your desires and it's consistent with your ideals, then if W chooses not to be part of that, as tragic as that may seem now, you'll find you can be at peace with what is ultimately her decision.
If you care to, read my sitch. There's a lot of similarity. Maybe you'll learn what not to do, or get a few ideas of what to do. I was where you are. In my own time I took my life back and made my plan. My W now has a very short time left to make some tough decisions. Months ago I told her the decisions were inevitable, and the choices would be less attractive as time passed, but they would be her decisions. I took the choice of living with me and dating OM off the table.
Whatever she chooses, I can see a path to where I want to be 1, 2 and 5 years from now, and that feels really, really good.
Your goal is reconciliation OR divorce. Unless you want to live in an open marriage.
Again Starsky is right. No pronouncements. First talk to a lawyer YOURSELF. Find out your rights, protect yourself.
Also condsider what YOU want IF you got a divorce. Ask about things like child support, custody, etc to the lawyer.
Then take steps to protect yourself, like document how much time you spend with the kids, etc..
Then figure out how you are going to try to save your marriage.
You can try and work on yourself, get a life, etc, be patient and try to "nice" your spouse into picking you over the OM. Don't ask about the OM, etc. Be happy, detach, live in limbo for a while. Good luck with that.
Or you can try the last resort technique and see if it works.
If it doesn't you tey the AFTER the last resort technique (going dark) for a short while.
And if that doesn't work, give her an ultimatum. If she doesn't dump the other guy, apologize profoundly, write a no contact letter to the OM and go into counseling with you, it's time to walk.
You walk by 1. Either Filing for Divorce OR 2. Getting a Mediator or 3. Getting two lawyers who practice collaborative divorce.
Sometimes filing for divorce is the only message people really listen to and THAT might turn her around.
And...PLEASE, PLEASE read today's post on Chumplady.com It's painful, but it's where you may end up being soon.
All, thanks for trying to whack some sense into me. My emotions have me all over the map. From rereading these posts as well as other threads I realize that I am still making this about her and not about me. I realize she will never love a man she doesn't respect.
So I will get a lawyer. I will figure out what I want my life to look like without her and what I want my future to be like with my kids. I will start planning for D, even though it is not what I want. I will build a new network and GAL, not for her but for me. I will not threaten or give ultimatums, I will simply act. I have already told her "I will not wait forever" and I will not put a limit time limit on that (externally to her) but I will impose a short one (2 months max) on myself so that I don't become a doormat who supports here cake eating. I will figure out how to be somehow upbeat and a strong person while clearly not condoning or supporting her #%^*. I will lay down strong boundaries and will act if they are violated. I will take a few days and THINK about what I want rather than throwing all the crap up on this board as I've been doing for the last week.
Theoden, thanks four your comments- sometimes I need to hear the same thing in a different voice to help me get it, and your participation is really helping.
Zew, thanks for the pointer to your sitch- I had been reading your active thread, but am now going back and reading your older posts and they are extremely helpful, especially the comments on tough love, attraction, and the true purpose of the rules.
Starsky, thanks for your patience with me- I am learning and your commitment to teaching others is very much appreciated. I don't know how you do it and put up with us nobodies, but I'm very glad and thankful that you do. One question- you laid down clear boundaries of no txting OM in the home or using marital assets to support the A. What would you have done if they were violated? File? Go dark?I understand that boundaries are useless until you are prepared to act, I just have to figure out my own internal "or else."
I also am struggling with how to police similar boundaries without snooping- for example W's phone remains locked and with joint finances, she can easily hide in cash or ambiguous charges a good amount of spend if she wishes to, so I couldn't police your type of boundaries (just an example here- I know I have to figure out my own boundries but it's hard for me to understand how to do that with a lying WAW).
I want to make sure my boundaries are clear, represent my true deal breakers, and that I can unambiguously know when they have been violated. I am still struggling with that, but I continue to read here and will take time to calm down and think.
A huge THANK YOU to you all.
Me: 45 W:43 M: 15, T:21 2 Kids- S-14, D-12 A Started: 10/2013 Discovered as EA: 6/2014, as PA: 7/2014 A changing, not ending Start DB'ing 9/2014 Same house, same bed
All, thanks for trying to whack some sense into me. My emotions have me all over the map. From rereading these posts as well as other threads I realize that I am still making this about her and not about me. I realize she will never love a man she doesn't respect.
So I will get a lawyer. I will figure out what I want my life to look like without her and what I want my future to be like with my kids. I will start planning for D, even though it is not what I want. I will build a new network and GAL, not for her but for me. I will not threaten or give ultimatums, I will simply act. I have already told her "I will not wait forever" and I will not put a limit time limit on that (externally to her) but I will impose a short one (2 months max) on myself so that I don't become a doormat who supports here cake eating. I will figure out how to be somehow upbeat and a strong person while clearly not condoning or supporting her #%^*. I will lay down strong boundaries and will act if they are violated. I will take a few days and THINK about what I want rather than throwing all the crap up on this board as I've been doing for the last week.
Theoden, thanks four your comments- sometimes I need to hear the same thing in a different voice to help me get it, and your participation is really helping.
Zew, thanks for the pointer to your sitch- I had been reading your active thread, but am now going back and reading your older posts and they are extremely helpful, especially the comments on tough love, attraction, and the true purpose of the rules.
Starsky, . . . One question- you laid down clear boundaries of no txting OM in the home or using marital assets to support the A. What would you have done if they were violated? File? Go dark?I understand that boundaries are useless until you are prepared to act, I just have to figure out my own internal "or else."
Yep -- definitely. Otherwise, they're not really "boundaries" but are really just "geeIwishyouwouldn't's."
Ultimately, I filed for divorce, but that was more because of her continuing to refuse to end her affair, and lying about it to even her own parents and our adult daughters (as well as to me). That (filing) would not have been the "or else" that I would have attached to the "no texting OM in front of our kids," or "no calling OM from inside our marital home" or "no squandering family's funds on your affair." My consequence for the finances was to set up my paycheck as a direct deposit into a new account that only I had access to, from which I transferred a reasonable amount each payday to our joint account that we both could use on shared family expenses. I cut off her cellphone (she went and got her own), and I stopped paying for her lingerie, her hair coloring, her tummy tuck (Visa payments) or anything else she was using to make herself appear younger for her younger OM or to in any way conduct her affair.
The consequence for her coming home after 1am one morning (after I'd warned her about this boundary) was to have all the lights off in the house and the yard, and the home security system armed.
The consequence for the "no texting/calling OM from our home"? had she violated it? Not sure, but funny thing how those cellphones don't really work very well without the SIM cards.
It all comes down to being taken seriously, and learning how to lay out and enforce boundaries. If you were never good at it (like I wasn't), it will take awhile before she will take you seriously.
I'll see if that old thread by Coach is still around here about "Boundaries" -- it was exceptional.
