Keeping it real

[Zues126]

Ok. Up virtually all night in pain and even despair. Can't see a way forward. All roads look like oceans of pain and heartbreak, and things I've always wanted to believe in like love and commitment all seem like broken illusions.

Now my STBX calls. Asks for a phone number but she basically admitted she wanted to let me know that she stopped drinking. She said she realized that she had been running from being alone and using drinking/men to cover that up. She said she is getting professional help with her psychiatrist and making better choices. Starting a couple of new hobbies. Etc. she said I should know as it pertains to me knowing the children would be safe.

I tried to validate as best I could. Related to her where I could, told her I was glad that the clouds were starting to break through. Agreed that it wasn't easy for her but was supportive that she was on a road that would lead her into a better spot.

First contact by her since the incident. I am staying super dark but will respond warm when she is warm to me. This incident gave me a little hope. Not anything short term as I know her mind is made up in her head and she can't see getting past the hurts of the past. But if she has the character to course correct maybe she can do so again in the future. That said, I'm starting to see how long the road would be even if that's not possible. For the first time I can really get how this could take years. So I'd better take care of myself!

[Zues126]

Ok. Just figuring this out now. Sorry, this link is to a blog, not anything very official. But if you had a bad R and can't get over the BD check it out.

http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2012/08/08/you-dont-miss-him/

I think this is true for me. My R was never great. Never. We weren't good friends and had nothing in common. She got pregnant right away and we got married and tried to make it work. She is a good person with flaws, as am I. We didn't have any foundation with which to battle life together and made all the standard mistakes. Our love and positive intention was there but we diet execute and roughly half (or all if you ask my STBX) weren't very fulfilling.

Now, I still believe god gave us to each other and where we misfire is a sign of where we need to grow. I believe in marriage and commitment. But lets be real. Being together with my W again wouldn't be rainbows and roses. Of course I'd give my all or I wouldn't be here. Just trying to remember that she isn't the missing piece to my heart (or again, I wouldn't be here).

I needed that reality check as it helps reduce the pain and today was tough. Stupid guy loses girl and gets her back and is happy movies...

[25yearsmlc]

Ok. Up virtually all night in pain and even despair. Can't see a way forward. All roads look like oceans of pain and heartbreak, and things I've always wanted to believe in like love and commitment all seem like broken illusions.

Now my STBX calls. Asks for a phone number but she basically admitted she wanted to let me know that she stopped drinking. She said she realized that she had been running from being alone and using drinking/men to cover that up. She said she is getting professional help with her psychiatrist and making better choices. Starting a couple of new hobbies. Etc. she said I should know as it pertains to me knowing the children would be safe.

This is a HUGE relief! I believe your wife has been ill and having a major depressive episode so I'm very glad she's getting help. Thank God. You are allowed to be happy about this!

I tried to validate as best I could. Related to her where I could, told her I was glad that the clouds were starting to break through. Agreed that it wasn't easy for her but was supportive that she was on a road that would lead her into a better spot.

I would think you're happy about this, right? I mean, validating these choices has to be a lot easier than validating the other times, right? This getting help is mandatory for her and for your family's wellbeing.


First contact by her since the incident. I am staying super dark but will respond warm when she is warm to me. This incident gave me a little hope.

Yes I can see why.


Not anything short term as I know her mind is made up in her head



You "know" no such thing ^^and neither does she. Stop the mind reading..yikes, after all these weeks...you have to stop it or you will go nuts.


and she can't see getting past the hurts of the past.

anything there seem familiar to you? You both have forgiveness work to do. Worry about her sandbox LATER and stay in your sandbox to do your work.

Make sense? I don't know all the steps you two have to take to get to a pont where you are co parenting, let alone reconciling But both of you working on yourselves is KEY to any progress. So don't keep looking at her box...just look at yours. IT's the only one you control and besides, by you setting an example of change, you'll give her hope to do the same.

But if she has the character to course correct maybe she can do so again in the future. That said, I'm starting to see how long the road would be even if that's not possible. For the first time I can really get how this could take years. So I'd better take care of myself!

Indeed you must take care of yourself and those children of yours, &

keep on keeping on.

[Zues126]

Thank you 25. I'be been a bit unstable lately and I appreciate you helping me get back on track. My sandbox indeed.

I've just been down. Day after day. When I'm doing stuff I am ok but in general I just am feeling a bit bummed. I think the reason I am convinced the R is doomed is partly believing what I hear and see which is easy to do, and partly because limbo isn't easy and I just want to stop hurting. But that's not what's most important and I have to remember that.

GAL is hard. I like my life and who I am for the most part and don't intend to do a to manufacture a new me just to catch my STBX's attention. I am still playing and competing at pool and enjoy that, my W never had a problem with it (other than time away from children) and I won't be quitting. I am reconnecting with friends a bit. One thing I'm going to do is go to a men's support group for 'choosing healthy sexual boundaries'. I may attend one or a number of these meetings, but I'm sure ill learn a lot and maybe make a friend or two. This was a bit challenge in the R and something I'm wrestling with so I think it is a good step. Of course I'm trying to be the best dad I can and am doing better than anything I've done in the past.

Right now the hardest part is not self medicating. It would feel so good to just go out with another woman and feel some love, go on a porn binge, etc. But I know I'd only feel worse and wouldn't like to look in the mirror afterwords. So I'm stuck dealing with my fears, shame, loniliness, and sadness the hard way. Taking my share of the blame and trying to comfort my inner self and pray for peace and strength. I am not breaking yet but look forward to the day that I find myself feeling good more often. Please feel free to reply again, I appreciate all of your comments and keeping an eye on my sitch.

[25yearsmlc]

Thank you 25. I'be been a bit unstable lately and I appreciate you helping me get back on track. My sandbox indeed.

I've just been down. Day after day. When I'm doing stuff I am ok but in general I just am feeling a bit bummed. I think the reason I am convinced the R is doomed is partly believing what I hear and see which is easy to do, and partly because limbo isn't easy and I just want to stop hurting. But that's not what's most important and I have to remember that.

GAL is hard.

saying, "GAL is hard" may seem true, but NOT GAL is worse and ultimately harder.
I hope you see that.
What you say above proves it. You feel better when you are "doing stuff" (read "GAL") and ou are believing too much of what you hear and see partly b/c of Not GAL as well.

I like my life and who I am for the most part and don't intend to do a to manufacture a new me just to catch my STBX's attention.

IF you believe that GAL = "manufacturing a new" you, AND that it's "just to catch" her attention, then you misunderstand the concept and purpose of GAL. That's unfortunate.

Among the many purposes of GAL - is enriching your life, exploring things you always wanted to but held back from, learning something of interest or value that helps you FEEL SOME JOY in your life and NOT obsess about your situation...it's partly a self discovery tool, and is huge for your PMA.

You read the DB or Div Remedy books? Read the parts on GAL again. IT's NOT about getting her attention and it's NOT about manufacturing a new you.

The 180s you do ought to help with undermining the negatives she has of you, though it's just a piece of that. Also your wife is going thru a lot and may be psychologically ill at this time. In my layman's opinion, she seems unwell.

Just b/c it's emotional illness, doesn't make it less real OR less sympathetic.

But GAL is crucial to detachment. Without GAL, you cannot Detach.


I am still playing and competing at pool and enjoy that, my W never had a problem with it (other than time away from children) and I won't be quitting. I am reconnecting with friends a bit. One thing I'm going to do is go to a men's support group for 'choosing healthy sexual boundaries'.


That^^ mens group is a GAL activity that benefits you and MAY get your mind off the situation but then again, maybe this particular GAL activity is just for improvement on an issue that played inside the M.

I'll list a few thing I did for GAL below.

I may attend one or a number of these meetings, but I'm sure ill learn a lot and maybe make a friend or two. This was a bit challenge in the R and something I'm wrestling with so I think it is a good step.

Is making a new friend what you're referring to? Then this is a good thing to do and sounds healthy for you to do, regardless of your w's choices. Make sense?

Of course I'm trying to be the best dad I can and am doing better than anything I've done in the past.

Right now the hardest part is not self medicating. It would feel so good to just go out with another woman and feel some love, go on a porn binge, etc. But I know I'd only feel worse and wouldn't like to look in the mirror afterwords.

It's great that you can think this out. If you were to "Self medicate", thinking out how you'd feel after is key to helping you see why NOT to do it.

It's a piece of the underlying reason you are here.

So If you find a GAL activity that gives you some JOY, it will help you avoid the pitfalls of your typical self medicating...like playing an instrument or joining a team or taking a class or skydiving or whatever, is a lot healthier for you than the other choices you have been making. THAT is a reason for GAL in a new and different way (Like I said, see the list I give you of what I did to just feel alright in the interior of Alaska.)

A big part of GAL is also just overcoming inertia. In a way that's really symptomatic of so much in our lives you know? We make a poor choice repeatedly. We know it's Not a good choice, but we have nothing to replace the negative behavior with yet...no substitute for the negative behavior ----which is where GAL COMES IN...

We feel 'stuck" , and yet it's often just a matter of Doing it....AND learning NEW ways of dealing with our pain. I would think that appeals to you.

So I'm stuck dealing with my fears, shame, loniliness, and sadness the hard way.

Zeus, you are CHOOSING to make this harder! (Tell me, btw, what the 'easy way' that you think exist - b/c I sure don't know anyway to get thru this that isn't hard as he11.

You are resisting the GAL suggestion for some reason, almost as if your situation is uniquely difficult.Yet it's not, b/c most of us were in the "Stuck mode" too. WE got ourselves out of it. And GAL is key.

I think the unique part of your situation is that your wife is in major upheaval and suffering some sort of quasi breakdown (or full on breakdown; I'm not sure yet.) But we've seen that here too.

You are Not alone. Also, I found myself feeling helpless and hopeless at times. At those times you may have to do what I did, which was to Turn this over to the Big Guy...let him carry your burden for a bit.

I swear, by me thinking the words "God, (or "universe" or "higher power" etc) I turn this pain and anger over to you" or "I turn this marriage over to you",

and saying the words, and hearing myself say them, HELPED those words sink in!

And I felt calmer and more at peace. That helped a lot, especially when h called that's for sure. And it kept me from obsessing at bed time so I could sleep better.

Just a suggestion if you're a believer.


Taking my share of the blame and trying to comfort my inner self and pray for peace and strength. I am not breaking yet but look forward to the day that I find myself feeling good more often. Please feel free to reply again, I appreciate all of your comments and keeping an eye on my sitch.

Think about how you were raised and any of the shortcomings in your upbringing...can you see any thing that you have improved upon in raising a family now? Can you celebrate the improvements you've made?
Knowing that your family of origin's negative ways are being improved, is a good good thing. Kudos to you for the changes you are making.

And please see that the need to find new behaviors so you don't self medicate in an unhealthy way, is something you need to do. That doesn't mean you are manufacturing a new you, so much as becoming who you were meant to become.

If you read your earlier posts; the ones in which you own the behaviors you're not proud of, with a clear eyed view of the bullying and the demanding way you carried yourself, (sorry, but thats how it read to me; although from a remorseful position I believe Was sincere) ....

then I think you can see that some improvements are needed to have a healthy marriage with your wife or with any woman...(none of us want to do what we don't want to do, in bed).

Don't underestimate that, please. It imperils you and your situation to blow that off.

All the women I know who have done things they didn't really enjoy, repeatedly, all ended up resenting their partners for pushing for it b/c it did not feel loving...AND OR they pretended that it's just that 'they didn't like sex" - when in reality it's the sex they've been having with their partner, that they did not enjoy.

Hang in there Zeus. You have the insights and bravery to change yourself in a meaningful profound way -- and that is a good thing to have, no matter what your w chooses to do or how much help she gets. I wish her luck in that too.

[25yearsmlc]

Zeus,

For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. I had 3 kids, including a newborn baby born our 2nd month there. (So you know I don't want to hear about how you are or 'too busy' to GAL).


Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Hear yourself resisting GAL and stop the resistance. Overcome the inertia, which is resistance, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with ALL people, including your w.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding it... it got me outside at a time when most of us wanted to hibernate.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

Went skydiving! And I Loved it so much I did it again. And I plan on doing it again, soon!

(Last month a fellow DBer went skydiving and I went to watch and support her. It's powerfully symbolic of us taking a leap of faith, you know?)

Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.

(Plus I'd just had our last child so I needed to lose the baby weight. It was NOT easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of their long LONG winters).

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs. Very helpful, especially in the winter.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot). It also got me out of the house doing something moderately creative and sometimes that was all I could do. It helped.

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.

(Man I sure wish I had joined sooner! Met two women there, who remain as life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that don't cost much. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were FREE, or really inexpensive.

Keep going!

[25yearsmlc]

Last but not least,

I hope you'll forgive me if I posted this to you earlier b/c I think it was to someone else...but if I'm wrong I apologize for being repetitive.

But it's an important point of view too few of us get to see.

She's a WAW who heard an LBH here on the boards, asking how his wife could still be interested in OM, when he her h, had changed a lot!

Here is HER letter to the guy asking for advice...

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED, AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET, & HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.

So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OR when some OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."

_________________________



Zeus, could your wife have written any or all of this^^ letter? Dig deep, be brave.

[Zues126]

(Long post, that kind of week) 25, thank you for following this thread. It's nice to get feedback but with you I feel like you're really rooting me on.

You're right about how I handled myself in the M. I've been peeling back that onion. My M was so bad in so many ways. Neither my W nor I had a high self worth and we both counted on the other to make us happy. It didn't work. For her, she has issues being herself. She is a pleaser and was all about being a good mom, getting my approval, or the approval of the world. To me it felt like she had no personality. It seemed like she was a shell. We didn't have great conversation, our 'dates' were dinner and a movie and boring sex. We loved each other and there was passion at times, but not much intimacy.

I grew very restless. I felt like I was in a shell of a marriage. I started doing more and more on my own to entertain myself. Winning pool tournaments, killing it at work. In turn she devoted herself to the kids and became very controlling with them, getting her needs met by their dependence, and shutting me out from the family as she needed to be the one that was needed for everything (the 'I don't deserve love so ill settle for being needed and get to be the noble martyr). I began to feel very neglected and resented that she didn't make me as much of a priority as she made the kids. Remember, 3 kids and a miscarriage in 10 years meant she was pregnant/nursing much o the time. We never dated as she was pregnant right away so we never for to take trips or have fun together. And with our disconnect even if we had the time it wouldn't have been that fulfilling for either of us.

I never understood what she needed. Maybe she was so passive she never td me, maybe it seemed so alien to me I never understood, maybe she was afraid of me, maybe she didn't know herself. But I felt alone in my marriage, and somehow I concluded that if I was going to remain faithful and committed to this person who I felt stuck with, she should do everything she could to make it bearable. In my mind that became sexually among other things.

I say peeling back the onion because my DB coach says that my sexual demands were an attempt to fulfill other real needs that weren't being met, such as feeling desirable, important, and admired. But I also know that it was the lack of love I had for myself that I was trying to compensate for by having her 'prove' her love to me.

Now, tonight I am trying to pick up my broken pieces. It's hard to love myself when I haven't for years. I dot know if I do or not. I ran from emotions for 22 years and just played pool. How much of my feeling bad is normal for being human? How much is normal for my situation? And how much is due to my need for self acceptance? For an emotional infant it's a lot to figure out.

So sexually I believe that I can do two things. First, learn to meet my own needs that I can meet such as self love and approval, then make sure I have the tools to have a better R next time around as far as meeting basic and reasonable R needs. Beyond that I still have to figure this out. That's why I'm going to the 'exploring healthy sexual boundaries' meeting. I feel the need to be loved by a woman and that is how I have always felt loved, so the notion that a woman I'm with doesn't have to be sexual if she doesn't choose to is confusing to me. I mean, it seems so obvious when I type it, like no one should be forced to have sex against their will. But I know I have to grow more and I'm discouraged that it comes so hard.

It feels so unfair. Like I have this need only my W can meet and it is so power it pretty much drives all I do. I felt like she never understood how important it was to me. All I did in my R was try to love her and provide for her so I'd meet her approval and hope she would love me the way I needed in return. Now I see that's not love, that's like buying dinner for a woman and expecting to go home with her on a grander scale. But my mind tells me 'but then how do I get what I want?!?' Make no mistake, I don just want sex, I'd love a woman I can explore the world with, partner on life with, read poems together, text throughout the day, do nice things for, etc. but since you asked about the issue ill agree I need more help and that I caused some rifts that may be insurmountable.

So again, layer one is health sexual boundaries which I'm working on. Layer two is a better R in which baser needs are met. And level three is getting better on my own so I'm not counting on an R to make me feel better. I know GAL is part of that and am taking small step (spending more time with friends, trying this meeting) but will give thought to some more. Trying to picture being content on my own without a woman that loves me and expresses that to me physically is harder. I'm reading, journaling, praying, meditating, starting these meetings, and talking about it with my IC and DB coach as well as my support network. I want to change and just can't see the road in front of me and am horrified with the pain I've inflicted and the consequences it's caused to me and my entire family. Yes, my W could've written that post. Life has been no picnic for me either. I've had enough and am ready to do whatever I can. So thank you for caring and ill keep you posted on what I learn in these regards.

[Ss06]

25, I was hoping maybe you could stop by my thread so that I may partake in your wisdom. Thanks!

[bdub]

I say peeling back the onion because my DB coach says that my sexual demands were an attempt to fulfill other real needs that weren't being met, such as feeling desirable, important, and admired. But I also know that it was the lack of love I had for myself that I was trying to compensate for by having her 'prove' her love to me.

WOW!

I have never been able to put the words together, but reading that REALLY clicked on the lightbulb for me. Reading that is like looking in the mirror. Thank you so much for your profound words and insight.
The further my W and i drifted apart, the more I pushed for sex. The more I pushed for sex, the further we drifted apart. The more I pushed, the more she rejected. Every time she rejected me, I needed that much more to feel desired, important and admired.

I am not trying to be overly dramatic, but this post has changed my life for the better.