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Originally Posted By: Ss06
Oh I think I need to be set straight.

Who was it that was talking about how the little things completely throw us off our paths? One text exchange and I'm spinning a bit. Not a lot but a bit...

I think after the recent talk with H about him needing time to see his IC and to get over his anger and his Ss-induced-ptsd, I've been choosing the see only the positive in all of that but perhaps I'm not being realistic.

Here me out here:

I see myself as rather rational at the moment. Clear headed and grounded. I feel I see our situation as it actually was. We had HUGE problems. Insurmountable problems. 18 years of unresolved stuff. Some of that will never get resolved, I realize that but some of the other stuff I now have a guide on how to address it at least. This is BIG because so much of our marriage was stagnant because we had no idea HOW.

1. I am finding myself resentful that I am STILL the one coming up with solutions. He always just kind of sat there stunned with no solutions, even when pressed and pushed. He just couldn't come up with any while I always had a list of ideas. Therapy. A retreat. Date nights more often where we focused on connecting. This book. That book. This technique. That idea. None of it worked for more than a few days because not only did I have to come up with the idea, I had to implement it and encourage it and maintain it. ALWAYS.

1) what would REALLY happen if you did not do it all? Did you ever try NOT handling it all?

2) isn't the reason it did not work for long b/c you stopped and or b/c it required his participation, HIS buy in?

So without it, with just you "Solving it all", it never really was solved, correct?
What do you make of that?


2. I am not under the illusion that I was an amazing wife and H is completely nuts for wanting a D. No. I get it. What I don't understand is his incredible fragility.

One of his complaints was that I emasculated him. I won't deny it. I have thought about this a lot and I think the reason why was my sick way of motivating him to be MORE of a man. That clearly backfired and didn't work but I kept doing it. Dumb. Arguably abusive, in fact.

Isn't H's severe fragility and "ptsd" sort of self-emasculating? Call me out on this if you disagree or have a different perspective, please!

Hard to say. Your bias in the story here may be coloring my view. But yeah it seems like a self fulfilling prophecy now. AND probably some sort of habit he picked up by abdicating. It meant less conflict and less of you badgering him, but then, well, he got used to it. Now you are saying "But I'm different!" and the implied statement that comes next is "So YOU should be different too!"

And I doubt it'll work that linearly. He'll need time to believe it and to see that if you really do back off and Not make all the choices, some things won't get solved and that will either have to be okay w/you, or he'll have to step up to the plate...


otherwise this is NOT new behavior. It's just you waiting to decide if HE is acting fast enough or the way you want him too, quickly enough and YOU will decide if and when YOU will take over or what?

I think YOU have to be willing to let him fail
for awhile, and probably not ever bring it up.

IF IF IF he wonders why something did not get handled you can say you thought that was what he wanted and you were determined not to take over...

hopefully some mature rational discussions will take place about when and if he wold prefer for YOU to handle something and when he'd wants a Joint decision.


I can understand being hurt. I can understand feeling "dead inside" but once there is a solution proposed that seems like it could actually work and makes good sense, doesn't that help heal? Not for H. He's still "dead inside".


He's waiting for the emotions to come first and THEN he'll "ACT" the way the new emotions allow. But that's like waiting for happiness to land in your lap.

But we can ACT our way into feelings...it's like how some actors behave physically and mentally, in a way their character would ---and THEN they feel like crying. They act and THEN They feel.

I think Shawn Achor and Amy Cuddy did some short talks on this in those TED TALKS videos. Shawns was on Positive Psychology and Amy Cuddy's talk was about "Faking it til you BECOME it" and both topics touch on this issue.

Look those up and see what you think. It'd be a good issue for his IC to address (and NO, you cannot suggest that).

I guess Iam feeling like he's soaking and festering in his resentment and anger and fragility and "ptsd". Does that make sense? At what point does he get up and say, "I want to feel differently and I have control over that!"???



WHEN HE HAS TO...b/c no one else can/will do it for him.


He has no desire to change his mental perspective. It's just down, down, down, all the time. It's draining to be a pessimist but it's draining to be married to one, too.

Perhaps I'm belittling his feelings, that isn't my intention.

How do I honor his feelings while still wondering if he's acting like a victim who is self-emasculating himself in the process??


You GAL like a maniac. You radiate optimism and exude inner contentment.
You believe it b/c it's real for you. And you let that show. He'll either want to get on board your ship or he'll choose to fester and wallow in his victimhood.

As long as you can demonstrate with your lifestyle and behavior, that happiness IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY and that we CAN MAKE ourselves happy,

(& you do this, by doing it) then that is all you can do.

And I suppose there's no way to actually call him on that, huh?

Nope. Didn't think so.

If he ever ASKS you why you two are far apart or something that resembles a question about HIS attitude,

You can stress that the big lesson you learned thru this ordeal, and for which you remain eternally grateful, is HOW TO BE HAPPIER. Don't tell him he's wallowing, b/c as the source of a lot of his pain, originally at least, it's too self serving for you to say that.

Besides, you're showing him the way, will always be more powerful.


All of this came about because my BFF, her husband and her 9 week old daughter are coming into town this weekend. They are technically our best friends in the whole world but since the separation H has decided they are "my friends". Ok. How noble of you.

They are coming into town and want to see him and have him meet their new daughter. I texted him to tell him this.

H Ok, I'm assuming I'll stay clear.
Me: Why?
H: They're your friends - and I want to honor that and it's your weekend with D. There's no reason for me to be there. Even though I'd love to meet [baby], it seems like a social mine field. I'll be out and about anyway.

This made me think that he's mentally separating our friends already so maybe all my positivity is misguided. These are our best friends in the whole world.

I think you are doing some mind reading here. Try not to so much.

He may feel ashamed and not want to see them now, OR maybe he's paving the way into his new "Single life" as you fear.

But I'd reiterate that they love HIM too, they're not 'mad" at him. Maybe have the man of the couple invite him out. In fact, you could arrange it so he can see them without you around. After that, drop it.

Don't assume that you are reconciling in your behavior towards him. Do NOT do another temperature check, please... I think he's getting scared off. Please do not ask him how he feels again.

I believe very much that the fastest way to cool a R is to keep taking its temperature.

If he says he's "dead inside" again, you can be puzzled but more in the "gee that's too bad for you b/c I"m more alive now than in a long time".
... cool


H and I have successfully hung out as a couple (sort of) with other friends who are less important but he can't bring himself to hang out with our best friends and their new daughter?

Is he embarrassed? I don't think so.

Ashamed? I dont' think so.

So WTH?!


It's one of three possibilities. He IS ashamed in some way, and OR he doesn't want you to keep seeing you guys as a couple,

AND or some other mood or reason you'll never comprehend or ever guess.

IF it's one of the first two reasons, then your best bet is to GAL happily and see if he can see them without you, and then drop it.

If it's neither of those first 2 reasons, drop it now b/c you'll never guess and it may not matter.


Should I take a risk and text: "well, you're welcome to enjoy take out sushi and wine with us on Sunday if you're around"

I wonder what separations were like before texting.



I'd remove myself from the equation and let him see them without you, if you really want to know whether it's you he doesn't want to play husband with, or NOT do that, and drop it now,

if you are not ready to see that answer/behavior.


My GUESS and that's all it is, is that he is pulling back partly BECAUSE you've gotten along well enough and he thinks you believe a reconciliation is right around the corner. He is not ready for that.

IN fact, it probably benefits him to keep saying he's "dead inside" to reduce expectations from you, so he does not have to do anything to alter his course.

Inertia is now deeply engrained in him. Maybe it took all his energy to leave, and he's plumb worn out now, emotionally.

In any case, backing off seems like the wisest course of action here and now and for the near future.

So I would not repeat another question by text. If you really want to talk to him about it, pick up the phone and tell him - they really want to see him and you do not want to be the reason he doesn't.

Offer to step aside so you see them at a different time.

Only do this if they really do want to see him and if they are really comfortable without you being there.

I mean, make this authentic and a sincere effort on your end, and theirs (if they are not as close to him, don't lie or make them endure an evening of moping)

Just show that you can graciously step aside for him to see "YOUR" friends b/c they are not property in your name only. They are mutual friends and I assume that's how they see themselves, right?

Good luck. Don't over analyze or you will not have nearly as much fun.


Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 09/17/14 02:28 AM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,077
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First let me say, LisaB & Pilot, thank you.

Your opinions on whether to invite H, though different, were perspectives I really needed. Thank you for weighing in.

25 years- Thank you so much for stopping by. It's like opening a window wide open when you stop by... airing out all my BS thinking and helping me breathe clear air again.

Quote:
Are you in counseling?


No I am not in IC outside of my DB coach. Perhaps I should look into it but I feel I am handling things rather well. It can't hurt though, right? Our insurance isn't awesome so it'll be pricey. Just something that is always in the back of my mind.

Quote:
What did forgiveness look like in your childhood?


This is an interesting question and one I should explore further. I was raised catholic so forgiveness was a strong theme BUT my mother was HORRIBLY abusive and my father absent for much of our childhood (he didn't leave us, he was just an obsessive workaholic). My mother always apologized for the beatings and words she used to say and we were "required" to forgive her. It was just assumed that we would. We were actually afraid not to forgive her.

If we did something wrong, we'd apologize and she'd "forgive" us but it was ALWAYS brought up again and again, never really forgiven. So she was "worthy" of forgiveness but we never were. So I guess it's fair to say that forgiveness was more of a double standard.

Issues much? Yeah, that's me.

Quote:
When you are in the midst of an angry moment, it's hard to react in a new healthier way. Practice...seriously, practice. Find a good positive role model to help you replace the Things "NOT TO DO" in fights, with Things TO DO" in fights.

it's well and good to know what not to do but in the heat of the moment if you have not replaced the old behaviors with new better ones, you may easily revert to an old pattern.


^^^^ I totally agree. Practice will be helpful and I am observing marriages left and right to see what works and what doesn't seem to work so well with different personalities and baggage. I wish I had more direct ability to practice but that would mean fighting with H and I'm NOT ready for that and he's definitely not ready.

You're right, he'd run for the hills. Permanently.

I'm not sure if you're alluding to me forgiving him (for leaving me?). Is that something I should be working toward at this juncture? I'm asking, not implying otherwise. Am I there yet?


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
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Quote:
Oh I think I need to be set straight.

Who was it that was talking about how the little things completely throw us off our paths? One text exchange and I'm spinning a bit. Not a lot but a bit...

I think after the recent talk with H about him needing time to see his IC and to get over his anger and his Ss-induced-ptsd, I've been choosing the see only the positive in all of that but perhaps I'm not being realistic.

Hear me out here:

I see myself as rather rational at the moment. Clear headed and grounded. I feel I see our situation as it actually was. We had HUGE problems. Insurmountable problems. 18 years of unresolved stuff. Some of that will never get resolved, I realize that but some of the other stuff I now have a guide on how to address it at least. This is BIG because so much of our marriage was stagnant because we had no idea HOW.

1. I am finding myself resentful that I am STILL the one coming up with solutions. He always just kind of sat there stunned with no solutions, even when pressed and pushed. He just couldn't come up with any while I always had a list of ideas. Therapy. A retreat. Date nights more often where we focused on connecting. This book. That book. This technique. That idea. None of it worked for more than a few days because not only did I have to come up with the idea, I had to implement it and encourage it and maintain it. ALWAYS.

1) what would REALLY happen if you did not do it all? Did you ever try NOT handling it all?

2) isn't the reason it did not work for long b/c you stopped and or b/c it required his participation, HIS buy in?

So without it, with just you "Solving it all", it never really was solved, correct?
What do you make of that?


I honestly believe that if I didn't do it all it wouldn't get done. It would just sit and fester and grow mold and smell bad and we'd be back where we are. But you're right, me doing it all didn't work and me not doing it all didn't work so what are my options?

This is a BIG fear of mine. Being damned if I do and damned if I don't. I can carry the torch all I want but if he just sits there and watches me where does that get US? And asking for his participation is just more of the same which makes him roll his eyes and point the finger at me so where does that get US? And what if he commits to participate and cooperate but stops after three days (which is his M.O.). It's like he becomes paralyzed and is mad at ME for it.

Granted, I am assuming a little bit here that he would continue to sit and stare at me busting my arse to fix this marriage. Maybe he'd actually do something but I have no evidence to support that surmising. I can only change ME but how do I handle this if DOING didn't work and NOT DOING didn't work???



2. I am not under the illusion that I was an amazing wife and H is completely nuts for wanting a D. No. I get it. What I don't understand is his incredible fragility.

One of his complaints was that I emasculated him. I won't deny it. I have thought about this a lot and I think the reason why was my sick way of motivating him to be MORE of a man. That clearly backfired and didn't work but I kept doing it. Dumb. Arguably abusive, in fact.

Isn't H's severe fragility and "ptsd" sort of self-emasculating? Call me out on this if you disagree or have a different perspective, please!

Hard to say. Your bias in the story here may be coloring my view. But yeah it seems like a self fulfilling prophecy now. AND probably some sort of habit he picked up by abdicating. It meant less conflict and less of you badgering him, but then, well, he got used to it. Now you are saying "But I'm different!" and the implied statement that comes next is "So YOU should be different too!"

^^^ I am trying really hard to NOT think like this. His changes are HIS to make and HIS to live. Mine are mine. It's how they meet that will be the true testament of whether this can work which is why I'm determined to not be the weakest link.

We definitely need a plan (IF we should ever get to that point) on how to do the "working on the marriage stuff".

It's sick to me how we fought about everything, including working on our marriage. UGH!


And I doubt it'll work that linearly. He'll need time to believe it and to see that if you really do back off and Not make all the choices, some things won't get solved and that will either have to be okay w/you, or he'll have to step up to the plate...


otherwise this is NOT new behavior. It's just you waiting to decide if HE is acting fast enough or the way you want him too, quickly enough and YOU will decide if and when YOU will take over or what?

I think YOU have to be willing to let him fail for awhile, and probably not ever bring it up.

IF IF IF he wonders why something did not get handled you can say you thought that was what he wanted and you were determined not to take over...

hopefully some mature rational discussions will take place about when and if he wold prefer for YOU to handle something and when he'd wants a Joint decision.


^^^I hope a mature, rational discussion can occur, too, 25. At this point, that's the ONLY thing I can think of that would work. Otherwise it's just more of the same from me which isn't working.

I can understand being hurt. I can understand feeling "dead inside" but once there is a solution proposed that seems like it could actually work and makes good sense, doesn't that help heal? Not for H. He's still "dead inside".


He's waiting for the emotions to come first and THEN he'll "ACT" the way the new emotions allow. But that's like waiting for happiness to land in your lap.

^^^ I think you're right and it's frustrating. Not only happiness to land in his lap but resentment to just fly away on its own. GRRRR!!!

But we can ACT our way into feelings...it's like how some actors behave physically and mentally, in a way their character would ---and THEN they feel like crying. They act and THEN They feel.

I think Shawn Achor and Amy Cuddy did some short talks on this in those TED TALKS videos. Shawns was on Positive Psychology and Amy Cuddy's talk was about "Faking it til you BECOME it" and both topics touch on this issue.

Look those up and see what you think. It'd be a good issue for his IC to address (and NO, you cannot suggest that)


I guess I am feeling like he's soaking and festering in his resentment and anger and fragility and "ptsd". Does that make sense? At what point does he get up and say, "I want to feel differently and I have control over that!"???



WHEN HE HAS TO...b/c no one else can/will do it for him.


He has no desire to change his mental perspective. It's just down, down, down, all the time. It's draining to be a pessimist but it's draining to be married to one, too.

Perhaps I'm belittling his feelings, that isn't my intention.

How do I honor his feelings while still wondering if he's acting like a victim who is self-emasculating himself in the process??

You GAL like a maniac. You radiate optimism and exude inner contentment.
You believe it b/c it's real for you. And you let that show. He'll either want to get on board your ship or he'll choose to fester and wallow in his victimhood.

As long as you can demonstrate with your lifestyle and behavior, that happiness IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY and that we CAN MAKE ourselves happy,

(& you do this, by doing it) then that is all you can do.


I can do this. I really can. I guess what you're saying is to continue to give him time and occupy myself by GAL.

I must say that I exude happiness because I FEEL IT. I have my ups and downs but mostly I am up and I'm not faking it. I have become it for sure. I'm proud of that. I am taking your advice, 25. I have a cooking class tomorrow with a friend, I'm yoga-ing like a crazy woman, joined a separated/divorce support group, considering self-defense classes and I actually looked up our local flight school (it's a bucket list thing for me and you're my inspiration).


And I suppose there's no way to actually call him on that, huh?

Nope. Didn't think so.

If he ever ASKS you why you two are far apart or something that resembles a question about HIS attitude,

You can stress that the big lesson you learned thru this ordeal, and for which you remain eternally grateful, is HOW TO BE HAPPIER. Don't tell him he's wallowing, b/c as the source of a lot of his pain, originally at least, it's too self serving for you to say that.

Besides, you're showing him the way, will always be more powerful.


^^^ this is can do. I won't say that he's wallowing but I can explain how *I* became happier.

All of this came about because my BFF, her husband and her 9 week old daughter are coming into town this weekend. They are technically our best friends in the whole world but since the separation H has decided they are "my friends". Ok. How noble of you.

They are coming into town and want to see him and have him meet their new daughter. I texted him to tell him this.

H Ok, I'm assuming I'll stay clear.
Me: Why?
H: They're your friends - and I want to honor that and it's your weekend with D. There's no reason for me to be there. Even though I'd love to meet [baby], it seems like a social mine field. I'll be out and about anyway.

This made me think that he's mentally separating our friends already so maybe all my positivity is misguided. These are our best friends in the whole world.

I think you are doing some mind reading here. Try not to so much.

He may feel ashamed and not want to see them now, OR maybe he's paving the way into his new "Single life" as you fear.

But I'd reiterate that they love HIM too, they're not 'mad" at him. Maybe have the man of the couple invite him out. In fact, you could arrange it so he can see them without you around. After that, drop it.

Don't assume that you are reconciling in your behavior towards him. Do NOT do another temperature check, please... I think he's getting scared off. Please do not ask him how he feels again.

I believe very much that the fastest way to cool a R is to keep taking its temperature.

If he says he's "dead inside" again, you can be puzzled but more in the "gee that's too bad for you b/c I"m more alive now than in a long time".... cool


No more temperature checks. ROGER 10-4 on that good buddy!!

No more assuming that we are reconciling with my behavior. I have absolutely been doing that (how'd you know?!). No more. Just exude happiness, let it seep through my skin and my bones and my heart. I know it's having a positive impact on my D so I know it's where i need to continue to be.

I fear that if I say something like, "gee, i'm more alive than i've been in a long time" it'll allow him more victimization because he looks at me like "yeah, you killed my heart, so happy you're all alive and happy."

It's like he enjoys being so broken. That's insensitive. I don't think he ENJOYS it but he definitely gets something from letting me know I've made him "dead inside" repeatedly.



H and I have successfully hung out as a couple (sort of) with other friends who are less important but he can't bring himself to hang out with our best friends and their new daughter?

Is he embarrassed? I don't think so.

Ashamed? I dont' think so.

So WTH?!


It's one of three possibilities. He IS ashamed in some way, and OR he doesn't want you to keep seeing you guys as a couple,

AND or some other mood or reason you'll never comprehend or ever guess.


^^^ It's the bold above for sure. The idea of us as a couple is repugnant to him (ouch) right now. I can see now how some of my behaviors have been sort of pushing this couple idea on him more and more. I need to stop that.


IF it's one of the first two reasons, then your best bet is to GAL happily and see if he can see them without you, and then drop it.

If it's neither of those first 2 reasons, drop it now b/c you'll never guess and it may not matter.

Should I take a risk and text: "well, you're welcome to enjoy take out sushi and wine with us on Sunday if you're around"

I wonder what separations were like before texting.




M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
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Oh and 25, I absolutely watched those two TED talks you've recommended above and in the past. I watched them weeks ago and they've really been a great source of wisdom from which I've been able to jump from. In fact, D and I do a power pose every morning to start our day. smile

Just didn't want you to think I glossed over that part of your suggestions.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
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i need to have my kids watch that video with me too. Our realtor told me she watched that video before sales negotiations.

Sounds smart to me.

cool


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Nov 2011
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See, like a "genie" she appears.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Originally Posted By: labug
See, like a "genie" she appears.


Yep!!!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
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Ss, I just read your response to 25 and you sound a lot like me when my H left. I had all the answers, he did nothing, I kept it together blah, blah, blah.

I agree with 25 and to go further, it seems you still see yourself in the "save the day" mode and in order for the M to work he has to come around to your way of thinking. Is that true?

From my M, my H and I have common interests and individual interests. I tried to get him to like everything I liked, I thought that's what couples did. Wrong. Unrealistic and controlling expectation. I discovered during our time apart that I could do all those things with friends, I didn't have to drag him along or get POd if he didn't have the same enthusiasm for David Sedaris that I did. Being attached at the hip is not what makes a great R. I don't know if this was a factor in your M but I think most of us have some version of this.

I've learned I let my H be who he is and in doing that he's been more willing to meet my needs. Oh the wicked date night, that brings back bad juju for me. I can remember crying on the phone to H after he left "All I wanted was for you to take me out to dinner occasionally." (that's really not ALL I wanted and he knew that) Now if I want a date night, I suggest it. He also suggests things. I'm not waiting on him to make me happy or do things that I enjoy. When I stepped back and gave him room he became an active partner in the R.

And (25 will love this) I quit keeping score. No more "you never" or "I always." No bringing up crap from ancient history.

Another factor, no grading of their performance and I'm not talking about sex. Our Hs may do things differently but it doesn't mean it's wrong. And if no one gets killed then let it go.

I don't worry about or remind him of his doctor appts. I don't comment on his food choices (well, last week I did mention the amt of preservatives he eats. As it came out of my mouth I knew I shouldn't have) I don't remind him about doing things around the house. I don't finish his sentences, I look at him when he talks and try to really listen. (I'm 50-50 on that one)

This has been a huge change for me and as you can see above it's not always easy and I make mistakes. But one negative drop in a sea of positives is less hurtful than a sea full of negatives.

You can do this.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Wow -- labug, this is terrific advice! Being able to drop things (like reminders about dr's appts. and food choices) is something I also need to do, if I get the chance in the future with H. If not, I feel like I've definitely learned from this, and will be able to give my partner more space to handle his own choices and the consequences.

SS -- I did a lot of the same "rescuing" and "running the household." I think my H felt emasculated by it. He says he is happy to be living on his own now because he can do his own laundry and "be a big boy." (!)

I do wonder, however, if I would have treated a different person the same way. My H has ADD and is VERY forgetful, so things like appointments and bills would fall on my shoulders. Honestly, I think it would be a relief to be with someone about whom I wouldn't feel like I'd have to worry about those issues...

But if H does come back, I'm going to have to drop the reins and let him handle those things on his own, even if he handles them poorly by my standards.


M: 43 H: 39
D: 14
Married 15 Together 16
BD: 6/2014
S: 8/2014
OW revealed 10/2014
Instigated dissolution 12/2014, in progress
So over it!
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Originally Posted By: Ahoy


But if H does come back, I'm going to have to drop the reins and let him handle those things on his own, even if he handles them poorly by my standards.


Ahoy, my H already handles these things on his own, I've always refused to be his mother. ;-) They are big boys, they can do it!



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