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So I did something last night that some may disagree with. H and I ML. Yes, I am taking a chance given I have had some anxieties about he and OW. But, I have zero evidence and at this point he’s not showing any signals whatsoever that’s the case. With our interactions of late --- especially him finally talking to me about OW being in the office, and inviting me to lunch and a work function --- I am just not sensing at all that he’s still involved with OW. So we basically started sexting last night (which is a 180 for me, we have not done something like that for YEARS!) and then I invited him over for some booty. Afterwards we cuddled and chatted and for the first time in a long time he told me he loves me. Then I kicked him out so I could get some sleep, lol! cool


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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!!!



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mdu Offline OP
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More booty today.

When we were dating we used to leave work at our lunch hour to meet and ML.

We met at the house during lunch hour today.

Obviously I've re-attracted him. We had a very strong sexual chemistry when we first got together 10+ years ago so it's no surprise that is, in part, pulling us together again.

I wonder if now would be a good time to toss the idea of Retrouvaille out there?

Also, what are the potential landmines? I feel like we've got some sort of hot honeymoon thing going on that I need to be prepared for ending and how to handle..


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 768
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mdu Offline OP
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H and I are in such an odd place. I think we’re stuck in something like pre-piecing. He calls and talks to me and makes plans with me as if we are together. But yet we’re still physically separated, doesn't talk about moving home or MCing. Honestly, I suspect he truly does NOT know what to do to make this better and/or wonders if I truly will ever be ok with what he did. I want to push but I suppose I will continue to STFU, at least for a little while. Although now that I think about it, I’m not so sure how well STFU has worked for me. Part of me feels like it just enables his avoidance (which is a huge issue for him, pre-A and in many aspects of his life, not just with me).

It feels like this shouldn’t be so complicated smile


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,077
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So, then let me ask you this:

Are you ready for him to move home and/or MC?


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
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mdu Offline OP
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At a minimum I would like MC or at least to hear a plan towards that. And then I would hope in MCing we would discuss a plan for him coming home. If he needs some time for ICing I think that's ok. But it's the not knowing WTH we are doing that drives me bannanas.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,077
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I hear you, not knowing is rough.

I'm not sure I can make a recommendation on how you should play this because I've not had your experience. Hopefully a vet will assist.

I'm watching this space though because I'm curious. Are you supposed to wait into perpetuity for him to bring up the idea? Hmmm...


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
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Just my 2 cents, but I don't think it hurts to bring up MC. Do you think he'd agree to it? You mentioned earlier that you didn't think he knew what to do to make things better. Maybe he's waiting for you to bring it up?



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MDU,

Hey sweetie! Sorry to have been MIA for a while...as you probably saw in my thread that I had stuff to deal with during this week.

Originally Posted By: mdu
H and I are in such an odd place. I think we’re stuck in something like pre-piecing. He calls and talks to me and makes plans with me as if we are together. But yet we’re still physically separated, doesn't talk about moving home or MCing.


Sigh

I see that you're wanting to yank the fishing pole again. That is all because of your anxiety about the "outcome" of this situation. Remember...just trust the process and enjoy dating your new boyfriend.

Come on. Enjoy it. Don't put a deadline on this. I can tell you that H is ATTRACTED TO THE NEW YOU and is behaving like a squirrel who's starting to eat out of your hand.

What happens when you make a sudden move??

There's your answer, MDU.

Although now that I think about it, I’m not so sure how well STFU has worked for me.

Wha...what? Are you kidding me, right? You and H made love!!!!! Not once...but twice. I'd say that your STFU juice is working really well.

H is not avoiding you. He's watching you very carefully to see if this is the new, improved MDU who won't go back to her old "yelling fish-wife" ways. He is that scared squirrel who is acting pretty tentative...for a good reason! Right?

Focus, focus.

You can to this, baby!!! Don't take your eye off the prize: Your handsome H and a reconciled M.

Now time to go back to the kitchen and try out a new recipe for H. laugh

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Thx everyone.

Ok Wonka. You win. I will STFU and go bake smile


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 768
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H and I have been texting for over an hour. Just a bunch of silly, goofy stuff like the unfortunate effects of eating too many jalapeños.

I think it's good...although I also keep thinking this is not very sexy or mistress like. But maybe that's ok, part of the benefit of a long term marriage is you are comfortable talking about all sorts of goofy stuff, right?

Btw, for the men, if a guy's LL is words of affirmation I gotta imagine compliments about sex are likely the ultimate in filling their love tanks, yes?


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 316
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Originally Posted By: mdu

Btw, for the men, if a guy's LL is words of affirmation I gotta imagine compliments about sex are likely the ultimate in filling their love tanks, yes?


Yes, that would be awesome.


M 16 T 17
W moved in w/ AP (OW) 5/14
ILYBNIL 5/14
A discovered 6/14
D papers served via USPS 8/14
Filed my response 9/14
D final 5/15...
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mdu Offline OP
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Having a good day so far. Went to the kids soccer games. Things seem so much more relaxed between H and I. He invited me out to ice cream with he and the kids tonight but I declined, have plans already cool

Heading to a friends tonight for a bon fire party. Looking forward to enjoying some s'mores martinis smile


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 768
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Having a rough morning. H & I talked over the weekend about the A & us. He's going to get some references for MC so we can begin to seriously work on things. I should b happy but i feel the resentment starting to erupt over all that's happening. He shared more things that he lied about previously. Ugh he's done just damage on top of dsmage! How do I cope with all this?? Really facing what he has done is awful


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 883
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I hope I'm not oversimplifying this but you have two choices: to look back or look forward. There's absolutely no doubt that you and your H have to deal with all the concerns and fears you both have. Ultimately, the success or failure of your marriage will come down to which direction you both want to head in and if you can deal with things in a manner consistent with that direction.

Just remember how he responds to your timetables and pressure. Deal with one day at a time. You're in a great spot, mdu. Keep him on that hook.


Me: 31, W: 29
T: 4 M: 2
Kids: 3 (SS: 7, SD: 4, D: 3)
Separated, still living together: Nov 2013
Separate bedrooms: Feb 2014
W working away; kids with me: Nov 2014
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Thanks so much Barrybran. Simple and wise, very helpful!

I am extra anxious this week because H has a company outing on Wednesday and OW will be there. It will be ~40 people so he can easily avoid her but I wish he were not going at all, and frankly resent that he is. He seems to think it would look too strange to colleagues if he did not go. Plus I imagine at this point it's all paid for so he can't back out. Gosh I wish this woman would just disappear. It feels like it would be a heck of a lot easier to get over!


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 628
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mdu, Barrybran is absolutely correct.

With every new day you get to decide whether you want to clutter it with the past. I'm not suggesting you forget and sweep things under the carpet, but dragging resentment around leads nowhere.

Your H is starting to do the work of recognizing what he's done and starting to repair it. You are going to have to learn to trust him, little bits at a time. Send him off to the company outing. See if he comes back and tells you all about it, and puts your mind at ease. If so, you're one step forward.

On the other hand, if you prevent him from going, you stay stuck in fear, and he'll feel controlled. Not what you want.

Of course you wish the OW would disappear, but she isn't going to. Keep in mind that in the battle for your H, you won. She's road kill, let her go.

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That's great advice, Zew.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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I've always found MWD's article on forgiveness to be the most help moving forward:

Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself
By Michele Weiner-Davis

Are you someone who walks around feeling angry with your spouse or loved one much of the time? Do you have a little inner voice that constantly reminds you of all of his or her wrongdoings? Have you become expert at remembering all the minute details of past injustices just so that you can keep score? If this describes you at all, you better read what I'm about to say and take it to heart.

Lack of forgiveness imprisons you. It takes its toll on your physical and emotional health. It keeps you stuck in the deepest of relationship ruts. No matter how justified you feel about your point of view regarding your partner's insensitive behavior, you still are miserable. When you wake up each morning, a gray tint shadows your life. You walk around with a low-grade depression. You can't feel joy because you're too busy being angry or feeling disappointed.

In the face of these fairly obvious disadvantages, you hang on to your belief that, since you feel let down, you must not "give in." To you, giving in means forgiving, letting go, making peace. To do so, would be tantamount to giving up your soul. So, you keep your distance. You interact in perfunctory ways, never allowing your partner to step over the emotional line you've drawn. And though the distance often feels intolerable, forgiveness is not on your short list of solutions to your dilemma.

I have worked with so many couples who say they want to heal their relationships. And yet, when they're offered the tools, they can't seem to move forward. These are the couples who, instead of finding effective ways to get beyond blame, continue to repeat their mantra, "Our problems are your fault and you must pay." As long as they maintain this mindset, they are doomed to failure. How very sad. Even sadder are their children who, on a day-by-day basis observe their parents being "right" but "miserable." What lessons are they learning about love?

If any of this strikes a chord with you (and you wouldn't be reading this if it didn't), you need to internalize that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Letting go of resentment can set you free. It can bring more love and happiness into your life. It opens the door to intimacy and connection. It makes you feel whole. Forgiving others takes strength, particularly when you feel wronged, but the fortitude required to forgive pales in comparison to the energy necessary to maintain a sizable grudge. The person most hurt by holding out or blaming is YOU, no matter what the circumstances.

"All this sounds good," you tell yourself, "but how can I ever forget what my partner did to me?" Good question. You don't! Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. You will probably always remember the particular injustice(s) that drove you into your corner. But what will happen is that when you forgive, the intense emotions associated with the event(s) begin to fade. You will feel happier, lighter, more loving. And these renewed positive feelings won't go unnoticed. Others will be drawn to you.

Just keep in mind that forgiveness isn't a feeling. It is a decision. You decide that you are going to start tomorrow with a clean slate. Even if it isn't easy, you make the determination that the alternative is even harder, and that you are going to do what you must to begin creating a more positive future.

So promise yourself, that no matter what the reason, you will not go another day blaming your partner and feeling lonely. Make peace. Make up. Make love. I promise you that the benefits of deciding to forgive go far beyond anything you can picture in your mind's eye at the moment. Your decision to forgive will create a ripple effect of exponential changes in your life.

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Thanks everyone. Great advice, as always.

I especially appreciate your point Zew that I should not try to prevent H from going to the outing. I have literally been on the verge of calling H and demanding he not go so you're really timely. You're right, I don't want to live in fear and I know H will resent it if I try to control him.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 768
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H has offered to send me updates throughout the day about what he is doing and who he is with during the outing. I will be posting a lot on Wednesday for support. I know it will be imperative for me to keep my cool.

On Thursday we are going away together for the night for a vendor event through his work. It's at a beautiful location and should be a great opportunity to connect -- esp since someone else is picking up the bill! I want to show him that I can keep it together Wednesday and then have a fantastic time on Thursday. I don't want to let my anxiety wreck our time. It's a big week for me smile


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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Quote:
H has offered to send me updates throughout the day about what he is doing and who he is with during the outing.


He offered this without you asking? If so, that sounds really positive, and shows that he is aware that you are anxious and is trying to put you at ease.

mdu, you just need to reeeelaaaaax a bit. (imho) Don't forget everything you learned about detachment. Don't go looking for another roller coaster to hitch on to.

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I had expressed to him that I was anxious about it and wasn't sure what to do. He said he would think of ideas to help and that is what he came up with.

That's an interesting point about detachment. I feel like I keep forgetting that I need to keep these things up --- permenately.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 628
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Quote:
He said he would think of ideas to help and that is what he came up with.

Ok, good. Now let go, step way back, and let him live up to his word. He will. And the day after the outing, you'll feel good for letting him prove himself, and he'll feel good for coming through.

Things sound pretty good here - just let the world unfold as it should. smile

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Thx Zew!

H is coming by tonight to mow the lawn. I am determined to push past my anxiety about Wednesday and show a PMA. In the past in situations like these I want to talk and talk and talk. But that's really not going to help at this point, as you said I need to just let go and let it unfold. I'll post my progress later. Posting is definitely a lifesaver.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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H came and mowed the lawn. It was kind of sad, the kids wanted him to stay. I kept it cool but it's tough, I just wish he would come home.

The next few days I'm in training at work. Hopefully it will be engaging and a good distraction, especially on Wednesday when H will be at the work outing with OW.

Running in the am the next few days is going to have to be an absolute must! So helpful to my PMA and I've really been inconsistent. Gaining some weight, ugh!

Feel like I'm pulling out of the low I was at earlier today. I love documenting my ups and downs here...especially the ups, good reminder when I'm in a bad place that feelings come and GO.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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I read a book recently called ACT With Love that encouraged readers to accept the feelings they have, let them have their space and let them go again rather than dwelling on them and fighting with them. If you haven't read it it may help with your feelings about OW.

I'm really glad you didn't say anything about H's work event. That would have been a major backslide. At some point you will have to trust that he will do the right thing. If you can have an open discussion about this particular event (after the event) without blowing up you will be making major strides in your situation.


Me: 31, W: 29
T: 4 M: 2
Kids: 3 (SS: 7, SD: 4, D: 3)
Separated, still living together: Nov 2013
Separate bedrooms: Feb 2014
W working away; kids with me: Nov 2014
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Thx again Barrybran. I will check that out.

I'm having a tough night. My mind is racing with H and OW. Why does it seem like this is getting harder now that H and I are moving closer to piecing? I'm just finding it impossible to trust him. It's not that I think he's sleeping with her again but I worry that he's keeping a small flame flickering at the office, perhaps chatting or walking by her office unnecessarily. How would I ever know? And while he has made positive strides is that really enough? There's a lot that's still missing --- like him coming HOME and full transparency. It concerns me that he still has not agreed to those things. I think at the moment the only thing that is keeping me going is him saying he would get MC references this week. I hope we can confront some of these significant outstanding issues directly with the MC. And I hope we can find someone good and get an appointment ASAP.

Hopefully by posting here I can let some of these anxieties go for a bit. I mean although I am freaked at the moment I don't think there's anything I can (or should) do until we get to a MC. It seems the wisest thing to discuss under MCers guidance. I just need to find a way to get myself calm until then. Man this sux. Boy I hope that the training I'm in tomorrow is phenomenal and totally engaging. I could use the distraction!


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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I think being patient is all you can do really. I'm in limbo in my situation at the moment where my wife isn't going anywhere but she isn't coming towards me either so I have to keep reminding myself to just keep doing my thing and hope that the old adage of time and consistent changes builds trust over time for her. Like you, there's a whole bunch of stuff I want to bring up when things are good and I know where it will get me if I bring it up now so I'm just filing it away and plugging along on my own. I think that's all you can do; keep living your own life, be open and responsive to your husband and be ready when he's ready.

As for the office stuff, Wonka and Starsky have mentioned several times about the stinin' thinkin'. You're only doing yourself harm there.


Me: 31, W: 29
T: 4 M: 2
Kids: 3 (SS: 7, SD: 4, D: 3)
Separated, still living together: Nov 2013
Separate bedrooms: Feb 2014
W working away; kids with me: Nov 2014
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Mdu, I feel for you. It's really challenging not to go down the rabbit hole of obsessive thinking when your H works with OW. I have definitely struggled with this too. At some point we have to make a leap of faith and trust again. That takes time. I'm not there yet either. It's getting easier as I see the changes H is making. Be gentle with yourself and try and focus on the positive things your H is doing right now. It sounds like he's been trying taking some good steps lately. That's great news!


Me: 30
H: 35
M: 5 years
S2
Signs of MLC started Feb 2014
BD - PA July 2014
Piecing/reconciling late July 2014
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mdu, I think you are struggling because your husband simultaneously has not AGREED to be transparent with you, and yet he now is ACTING transparently in his day-to-day interactions with you, including on some pretty big issues.

Only you can decide what to do with that. I can only go by how you relate things to us here (that's all ANY of us can go on), but he does seem sincere to me, and I do think he's trying.

At the same time, I believe he is the personality type (and has the past track record of someone) who would rather not be pinned down by something, and would rather "wing it" day to day and not have to make a Big Commitment.

I see you struggling with whether or not that's a dealbreaker for you.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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As always Starsky, I think you've nailed it.

I do feel I need a bigger commitment from him. I've been grappling with whether to confront him about it now or hold off and see how things unfold. Fortunately, he followed through on getting MC references so we'll be setting up an appointment soon (definitely another good positive). I think it would be best if I plan to have this discussion with him under the guidance of a MC but I do think I need to ask for more from him in order to feel comfortable continuing to move forward.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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Posts: 7,319
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MDU,

Let's review your sitch's progress over the past month, shall we??

-ML twice
-H accepted/accepts your deliciously, outrageously GOOD baked stuff
-Starting to open up about the A
-Offering to give you updates while on company outing tmw
-Offered you to accompany him to the vendor event Thurs nite
-Is working on finding a MC in the area
-Drinking your STFU juice (shhhh...don't tell, it's actually Shirley Temple shocked )

I'd say....pretty DARN good!!! You need to applaud those positives. They are all laid out right in front of you and YET you focus on the tiny, tiny negative parts that blows up very large in your head.

The tiny part is that H isn't at home. That is really, really tripping you up every time. Every SINGLE time. Please set aside all thoughts about H coming home. Really.

Your H isn't your H. He is your new boyfriend. Treat him like a new boyfriend....listen to him like a lover. Validate him and thank him for opening up to you as you imagine that it is difficult for him.

Keep the road home paved smooth, MDU! C'mon...focus, baby!

Game plan for tomorrow:

-When H texts you, keep your responses light, fluffy, breezy...if you can, use humor.
-Use neon red "Stop Sign" in your head if you find your mind straying into OW. She's nuthin'!!!!!! She doesn't take up space in your head rent-free!

Let me qualify that...the XOW is the furthest thing on your mind. Nothing. She's a gnat that has been squashed by H. Good for him!

Going forward, I'm gonna say "XOW" for the A is truly over. Trust me.

Serene. Confident. Peacefulness. Joy. That's the new MDU.


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I second every, single thing Wonka just said. Including this, which begs to be repeated:

The tiny part is that H isn't at home. That is really, really tripping you up every time. Every SINGLE time. Please set aside all thoughts about H coming home. Really.

I'd spend a lot of time trying to find my focus and center right now when things are on the upswing, mdu. There's A LOT of hard work ahead. You asked the other day, when you were on Cloud 9 after ML, for people to tell you about the potential land mines. I didn't respond then because it would have just rained on your parade. I STILL don't want to rain on your parade, but - as you already know - I'm not good at holding back and coddling.

As Starsky once told me: "your sitch has reconciliation written all over it."

But the hardest part comes when they've bitten the hook. Because THEN we can relax a little on the "re-attraction" and "affair-busting" part of DBing. But when we let our defenses down, allllll our feelings about what our WASs did come washing in. There's doubt, confusion, sadness, ANGER, bitterness, a loss of trust and "innocence."

I only tell you this because I really, really want to see you guide your marital ship toward steady waters. And you MUST keep yourself and your anxiety and fears in check to do that. Focus on what TRULY matters here. And (as much as I feel it falls on deaf ears), I'll say something I believe wholeheartedly (even - in fact ESPECIALLY - now that my H is back at home and we are grappling with everything TO THIS DAY): slow and steady. Don't rush it.

Your M is for LIFE. Devote the time it takes NOW to make sure that's the case.

Rushing will just hurt you - and your M - in the end.

But that's just my opinion.


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Hare or turtle? MDU, who do you think wins?

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^^^ Best question of the day right there. (((Standing ovation, Wonka.)))


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Hmmmm....but at some point I truly feel I deserve more from him. Not just coming home but full transparency. Yes I suspect that H is truly being faithful now but I'm also no fool & know that it's easy to backslide in these situations, especially with OW so accessible. When do I get all that I need & deserve to reassure me a given this mess??


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You ABSOLUTELY deserve full transparency. AND his agreement to a full transparency plan.

The point, mdu, is that if it were my H, I wouldn't want him back in my house until he agreed to one.

But you keep pushing for him to move back in *without* one.

So what's it going to be?


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(Our point is: stop getting so wrapped up in H moving back home RIGHT NOW. You get caught up in that every time.)


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No, no. I absolutely am not pushing for him home without one! I want him home & I want the transparency plan. I definitely will not let him back in the house without it.


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Attagirl.


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Train, I *think* ultimately what me, you and Wonka are going around about is timing. I can't imagine that either of you disagree that H ultimately should come home and be fully transparent and I shouldn't compromise. But when do I say "ok H, time to get serious, fully commit to M, come home and agree to full transparency. If not, then I will need to step away because I can't continue on like this indefinitely." I mean you have to remember, we've been on/off the piecing path pretty much from day of BD --- 6 months ago. Sh*t or get off the pot already! (I do appreciate that many others have much more patience than me, I just can only do this for so long and feel like I'm quickly approaching my limit, I see no good reason why he can't/won't firmly COMMIT. Things obviously won't be perfect but he can commit to the M and the work, right?).

I feel like a real direct conversation needs to happen at some point. I think the question is when? At this point, I'm pretty much planning on it coming up organically in MC. Honestly, my gut is that H will respond well (although I probably shouldn't assume that..). As long as the conversation is handled correctly. Not an ultimatum but a "this is what I need at this point and if you can't give me that that's OK, that's your choice but this is what I'm going to have to do to protect my heart because not having a firm commitment to the M is really hurting me".

I just feel like it's getting time that I need and deserve more and if I don't start requesting it, I'm going to start losing some self respect.


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Here specifically is my current plan:

Tomorrow H has outing with OW. I am determined NOT to lose my cool. H stated he would send me updates. We'll see how that goes and assuming it goes well I will be sure to give lots of praise and thanks. If it doesn't go well I'll be sure to post here before I do/say anything wink I will do everything I can to use this opportunity to show him I *can* handle this.

Thursday we are headed to an overnight event through his work. This should be a great opportunity to connect. I will be sure to keep it all positive and rock his world wink

Over the weekend we will both be at kids soccer games. This is typically another great opportunity for connection, we just really bond over the kids. H said the other day that he loves parenting together.

Ok...so you can see what I'm doing thus far...keeping it positive, positive, positive and NO major R talks (unless he brings it up)

Then, hopefully we will get MC appointment sometime next week. Based on that, I'll gauge when to do the 'sh*t or get off the pot' talk. I'm doubtful that the very first MC appointment would offer the right opportunity but you never know.

So, that's my plan. I know Wonka is going to swoop in and say I'm trying too hard to control things. Perhaps smile But plans do help keep me on track, especially when I specifically plan NOT to discuss the A or go psycho. Also, I really am assuming that a lot of what I'm struggling with will come up naturally in MCing...


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Quote:
but at some point I truly feel I deserve more from him

Keep the deserve stuff in check, mdu. "I deserve" leads to expectations, entitlement and disappointing victimhood when things don't go as planned. Bit by bit, he's giving you more, and you have to decide whether that's enough, but leave deserve out of it.

Quote:
We'll see how that goes and assuming it goes well I will be sure to give lots of praise and thanks.

Don't overdo it. It will come off as patronizing. Don't make him feel like a little boy. A single, simple "I really appreciate your putting my anxiety at rest - thank you." ought to do it. A kiss on top would be dreamy.

Quote:
Based on that, I'll gauge when to do the 'sh*t or get off the pot' talk.
You have everything going in the right direction, and you have to realize it's going to be baby steps, baby steps, not great bounds. Everyone keeps saying piecing is the hardest part. Patience is your short suit. Know it. mdu, I hope you can come up with a plan for that and not blow all this positive progress out of the water.
You are by no means stalled, so why would you be itchin to do a 'sh*t or get off the pot' talk? This is your new boyfriend who you are trying to entice to take you out on the next date. You can't go at him with "marry me now or step off."

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^^^ Brilliant, zew.

I would be expecting more from my H, too, mdu. And I think some expectations are understandable at this stage. Zew just summarized beautifully what I've had a hard time putting into words here.

I *don't* think, when such amazing progress is being made right in front of your eyes, that a "sh!t or get off the pot" conversation is in order. I think that type of conversation is one you have when they're actively avoiding you and avoiding working on the M. If you have that conversation now that he's moving toward you? Hmmmm. I dunno ...

I've been thinking a lot about this in my own sitch and while reading others' stories: as I wrote about yesterday, once our WASs bite the hook, we really start allowing ourselves to feel what has happened. We also, I think, start getting a little ballsy. (It's easier to be ballsy when they're clearly on the line.) But in doing that, how quickly we abandon the DB principles and the methods we chose to re-attract them!

Judging only from my own experience, the best place to start is with an open mind and open heart, ready to work together as a team. It's quite selfless on the part of the LBS. The "release" of your feelings will have a time and place, in MC and/or when your H is re-committed to your M.

But, for whatever reason and fwiw, I don't think *now* is the time to get ballsy. That time has passed, and you chose to go a softer route. You found, in the process, that is what attracted your H back. To switch gears when things are working just makes me nervous. But that's just ME, and I'm not you or in your M. You know your H better than I do.

But all that stuff up there that zew is talking about? The patience factor, especially considering what's ahead? Yeah. Good stuff. That's what I was trying to get at yesterday.

If you're going to throw out ultimatums and/or boundaries NOW, just be sure you are TRULY prepared to deal with the consequences if H isn't ready to "sh!t or get off the pot."

I could be completely misunderstanding you, too, mdu. Zew's post just made me feel like maybe I *am* understanding ... or at least that someone else is reading what I am and seeing the same things.


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Originally Posted By: Train


But, for whatever reason and fwiw, I don't think *now* is the time to get ballsy. That time has passed, and you chose to go a softer route. You found, in the process, that is what attracted your H back. To switch gears when things are working just makes me nervous.



BINGO. mdu, you came to that fork in the road a looong ways back. And, as you know, I happened to believe in taking the other (firmer) fork, and I said so. But you didn't, and I think you need to stay this course.

I keep throwing the *asterisk* over everything though of "only you know will know when this is enough for you." Maybe you'd feel better with some sort of internal (NOT communicated to your husband, but hidden-in-your-heart) timeframe deadline on this? Like 1st of the year or something?


Starsky


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MDU,

Again??!! When are you going to learn to develop patience??! If you cannot be patient for one month, think about being patient for the next 40 years of your marriage because there will be times when your kids and H will test your patience in various ways.

Why don't you learn how to be patient now and for the next few months for it will pay huge dividends down the road for YOU and the family?

You want to use TNT on a skittish squirrel NOW. I am sure you know how that'll play out. Not pretty at all for sure!

You are Wily E. Coyote to your H's roadrunner. I can picture you in my mind out in the desert trying out various Acme "tools" to 'trap' H. grin

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Snap wonka, I was just gunna say it.

So mdu hands her a full blown picnic, sit down relax enjoy the ride. grin

Do not run, do not for crying out loud play with anything that remotely looks like TNT.


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When are you going to learn to develop patience??! If you cannot be patient for one month, think about being patient for the next 40 years of your marriage ... Why don't you learn how to be patient now and for the next few months for it will pay huge dividends down the road for YOU and the family?

Exactly. And more timely and pressing: how will you be patient during the months/years of piecing??

That actually reminds me of something else I meant to bring up earlier. I feel in this thread, ALL we have discussed for months is how to GAL and how to re-attract H. What I haven't seen recently (and that could be due to me simply missing it) is any discussion of what permanent changes you, mdu, are making to YOU to help make sure this breakdown doesn't happen again in your M. Cultivating patience and letting go of some control, I think, are HUGE obstacles for you. And when I see someone who repeats the same behavior (pushing and rushing) even though it has reaped negative results (your H pulling away), I have to think that person either hasn't identified it's something they have an issue with, or s/he either refuses to fix it or hasn't spent enough time with him/herself to adequately work on it.

I'm on "this side" of the A-busting, and I don't know HOW I could possibly be here, almost five months later, if I hadn't let go of some of my nagging, destructive behaviors while H was gone. Its hard work to make sustainable changes in ourselves. And, even if we have made them, it's hard work on this side of the A. You HAVE to be in tip-top emotional shape to get through it, IMO. I can't tell you how important patience, grace, letting go of anger/resentment - and STFU - are in the first few weeks and months at least.

Until your H fully re-commits and asks you what it will take to move back home, use the time to work on developing these things. That's the entire premise of DBing anyway. Re-attracting them is only a small part.


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mdu, reading Train's last post has me wondering: maybe your husband knows (or fears) you're not READY yet?

Maybe GOD knows you're not ready yet??


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Thanks everyone for your feedback! What an incredible blessing to literally have a TEAM of folks steering me in the right direction. I am so thankful to have the opportunity to unload here before I act. And I promise to not take drastic actions (e.g., [censored] or get off the pot convo) until I check in with you all. I will go with the consensus to keep it slow and steady because obviously I've got more learning and growing to do.

Today went well. I was really distracted with my work training which was great since H was at the outing with OW. I really didn't have time to dwell on it. And he texted me all day, as promised, with what he was up to. Which helped. I kept my responses light and appreciative.

Tomorrow night we will go overnight for a vendor event through his work. We're both really looking forward to enjoying some time together.

Staying the course...and as always, will keep you all posted.


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This all really, really resonated with me, Train. I definitely think I'm feeling more ballsy as he's seemingly getting more firmly on the 'hook'. Your insight is amazing whistle


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MDU,

Originally Posted By: mdu
Tomorrow night we will go overnight for a vendor event through his work. We're both really looking forward to enjoying some time together.


Details please. What is the purpose of the vendor event? Who will be there? What is H's goal there? What is the evening's schedule? Dinner on the menu?

We would love to pitch here and give you some support so the awesome MDU will shine throughout the night!

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Wonka, a vendor H regularly uses is hosting a bunch of clients (and their spouses) at a fancy hotel for 1 night. We get to stay at the hotel, have a nice dinner (with the vendor and other clients), use the spa (H booked massages for us). H will attend some informational sessions the vendor will be hosting as well so I'll have a bit of time on my own, which is fine by me. I'll enjoy the pool or whatever.

Honestly, this stuff I feel very confident about and find easy. I know we will have fun together. We're already very flirtatious about spending the night together wink

Actually, that's exactly what worries me. I feel like we have the fun/flirty stuff down pat and the sex will be great, without a doubt. But then I start getting anxious that we are sweeping things under the rug. That was an issue for us historically. We conflicted a lot early in our M but struggled to resolve things so then we became avoiders. I'll definitely totally enjoy our time together but I know I'll walk away with a gnawing, ok, so that's the EASY part, when are we going to deal with the real stuff. As I said, I'm so concerned we're feeding the avoidance monster that really took down our M. I don't want to make that mistake again.

Having said that, I do recognize that this fun event is NOT the time to get heavy with H. So I'm not saying that at all. Just giving some more background to my general pushiness in prior posts. Hope that makes sense smile


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You've got that boundary of living at separate addresses. As the others have said, enjoy him like a new boyfriend. Deep down I'm sure even you know he won't be living at his Dad's place for the next 12-24 months. He'll want back in eventually and he knows the conditions for his return. Until then, enjoy your new relationship.


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Quote:
Actually, that's exactly what worries me. I feel like we have the fun/flirty stuff down pat and the sex will be great, without a doubt. But then I start getting anxious that we are sweeping things under the rug. That was an issue for us historically. We conflicted a lot early in our M but struggled to resolve things so then we became avoiders. I'll definitely totally enjoy our time together but I know I'll walk away with a gnawing, ok, so that's the EASY part, when are we going to deal with the real stuff. As I said, I'm so concerned we're feeding the avoidance monster that really took down our M. I don't want to make that mistake again.

Having said that, I do recognize that this fun event is NOT the time to get heavy with H


Right now, mdu? You sound like a woman who has her sh!t together.

The time is coming when y'all will deal with all the monsters that brought you here. But you are spot-on: that time isn't tomorrow. (A friendly disclaimer from my own personal experience: don't drink so much that you become emotional and loose-lipped tomorrow night!!!)

I don't get the feeling at all that you will eventually rug-sweep. And the good news is y'all have agreed to MC, which will be a safe place for these issues to surface ... and for you two to work through them.

Grace under fire, mdu. Grace under fire.

GRACE.

smile


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MDU,

Not sure if you will be able to read this before tonight's event, but I am gonna go ahead anyway!

-Nice dress that accentuates your best features
-Lipstick, hair nice & sexy
-Spritz of perfume
-Be the social butterfly and support your H by saying positive stuff about him in front of colleagues and vendor

-Then seduce H slowly and surely with light flirtatious touches
-Then pull him aside in an isolated spot and whisper something dirty, sexy in his ear then sashay right back to the crowd to mingle

Game on!!!! laugh

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Heap, that's how I was at times in both my marriages.

Build expectations works every time and draws them in. Hence my h bolted he knows I well capable.


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Um hellllooooo, Wonka!! That's HOT! Holla!

Have fun, mdu!


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You might want to try this on your H too, Train! grin

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I'm rooting for you MDU!

(And imagining me trying this on GUBU at this point. I could just picture him grabbing his crotch while running away, screaming, "SHE TOUCHED ME!!!!!" smile )


Give it your A game!

---GGG


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5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
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When she didn't touch at all! Hey ggg!


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Wonka,

I love you.

Signed,
Train


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Too late Wonka. I did not get to this until after the fact. I did pretty well on my own, though. Had some fun in the outdoor hot tub wink

Only 'issue' we ran into was I ended up having a nightmare about H and OW and woke up crying. But H was good about it, asked me what I needed him to do to help. It's interesting how the closer we get the more of the pain from the A comes up. I guess it makes some sense, though.

We chatted a bit about the A. I asked H if it was about the sex and he said no (I didn't think so). I mean it was in part because our sex life had really stalled pre-A but it doesn't sound like it was the major draw. It seems like it was primarily the talking and attention from her. He said he enjoyed talking to her. He also said that he did not feel loved by me pre-A (and obviously during). He said that he started to feel loved by me again after the A was revealed and I stuck by him and was willing to examine how I contributed to the M breakdown. He's going to research the 3 marriage counselors his C recommended and send me some info about each so we can pick one. He wants to talk about a plan to come home.

So, we're definitely on our way smile


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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Oh...and we also talked about 'trickle truths' and how he had struggled to be completely honest with some of my questions previously. He said he's afraid to hurt me further and he's ashamed of what he's done. I can honestly say I had a bit of compassion for him. As awful as it is to be the LBS, I suspect when reality hits the wayward it must be pretty awful for them too.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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Yayyyyyyy, mdu!!!!! Sounds wonderful!!

You're a shining star! smile


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Keep up, MDU...baby!!!!! Wow. I told ya that the A was definitely over.

Starsky, I'm going to collect as you said in MDU's previous thread that you'd put money on my prediction coming true. I hope it is a crispy Benjamin! grin

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What prediction?


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Starsky...go back and read. It is all right there in front of you. Holding you to this, my friend! smile

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Just read the last two entire threads. Not seeing it. Post #?


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Perhaps got lost during one of those "purges"?? No matter, Starsky. You got lucky this time. cool

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WHAT WAS THE BET???


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Lolol!! I remember it! You were betting ON Wonka, Starsky, and that her prediction about mr. mdu was true!


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MDU,

You also might want to book a session at Retrouville in addition to MC. I've heard people swear by it around here.

There's a book that looks promising that you might want to check out and I think it applies to your sitch pretty well.

Kiss Your Fights Good-bye
'Dr. Love's 10 Simple Steps to Cooling Conflict and Rekindling Your Relationship' by Dr. Jamie Turndorf

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Well, it sure is a jagged road to reconciliation. Had a bit of a set back tonight and could use some advice.

Not surprisingly, OW being in H's office continues to concern me. H has assured me that although the office is very small the layout is such that even when OW is in the office he can easily go the whole day without seeing her --- and generally that's how it's been working out. Tonight, H and I agreed to meet at his office so I could see this layout for myself and hopefully be further reassured. So H shows me her cube and a few of her things are there --- jacket, some pictures --- just typical stuff. And it really hits me that this is REAL. I mean this woman is real and H really got involved with her. I know it sounds crazy but it is the most reality I've been hit with regarding his A in quite a while.

So then we end up talking some about things and nagging in the back of my mind are the few personal effects of hers I saw and I'm creating this image of her based on those things. And I'm imagining H really wanting the type of person she is rather than me. As you can imagine, this did NOT have a positive effect on my conversation with H. Although I didn't 'go off' on him, I did have a tone and an overall attitude of blame that I'm sure was less than helpful. We parted ways with a decent amount of tension hanging between us.

I know this is not good and I need to get a grip. But my bigger question is, what do I do about OW in the office going forward? My preference all along has been to know as little about OW as possible. I really do not want the mental imagine. Is that the right approach? Or should I waltz in the office some day and meet H for lunch, i.e., look her in the eye and make my presence clear? Do people have opinions about whether it's overall helpful or harmful to actually SEE the OW/OM? Or is it ok to just avoid them like the plague? Even though H works in the office with OW I could easily avoid seeing her. It's not like I go there often and she's not there every day so if I wanted to meet him for lunch or something we could just plan it on a day she's not there. The annual x-mas party could be a challenge but H already said we could just not go (although he usually plans it so not sure how he'd get away with that but he insists he won't go if that's what I want).

Thoughts?


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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Oh, honey.

I'd love to be able to advise you to waltz your pretty, confident as$ up in there and wink at her as you and H are heading out the door for lunch. I'd love NOTHING MORE than that visual!!! laugh

But (sigh) that'd be pushing my eff-you personality on you instead of taking into account what *you* can handle. I don't know what you can handle. Only you do.

I cannot IMAGINE how hard it was for you to see and process that workplace.

Sometimes, we NEED to see certain things, or ask certain questions, to help us. And then when we actually see those things, or hear the answers, we sorta wish we hadn't seen or heard them.

Welcome to Pre-piecing101. Unfortunately, it's full of its own heartaches and confusion and doubts ... and all those other emotions we naively assumed would go away once we had our Hs back (or we actually didn't think about AT ALL because we had a one-track mind while trying to deal with the A and trying to re-attract our Hs).

It's time for you to dig deep, mdu, to find out what you need to know ... and how much you HAVE to have to move forward.

Sometimes, you may think you need something that later you realize is too painful. Or maybe you will think you DON'T need something that later you think you do.

It's all personal. No one can tell you at this stage what you need to move forward. It's trial and error.

All I can say, sweetie, is that my hat is off to you BIG TIME for walking through H's work, eyeballing her set-up, and not losing your sh!t. You've come a long, long way, baby.

Pat yourself on the back for that.

I don't wanna sound patronizing, but I'm really, really proud of you.


M: 40 H: 44
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PS Please Google "Dear Peggy" and read through her story and the articles written by her and her husband. Any emotion you've felt is addressed there. Wonka suggested the site to me months ago, and I just read through it again. It is more valuable to me now than it was when H and I were S.

There's an article or two on comparing yourself to the OW. I read them yesterday and today. I think they would resonate with you and be super-beneficial for you to read tonight, mdu.

Hugs to you.


M: 40 H: 44
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Kudos for keeping yourself together, mdu. I'm sure your husband noticed both your anxiety about it and that you didn't go off on him. For the short term, do you have to go to his work at all? You've dipped your toes into H's work pool so I see no harm in avoiding the place until you have the courage to try again and having him meet you elsewhere until you're ready.


Me: 31, W: 29
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Thanks Train & Barrybran!

I just read those articles you recommended, Train. And they made me think 'no, I shouldn't bother forcing myself to see the OW'. I mean, what will that really accomplish? I am definitely giving her way more headspace than she deserves and will likely distract from the real, underlying issues in our M.

I have been feeling like not wanting to see her says something negative about me, like that I'm too chicken to face up to her. When actually I think it means that I'm playing this smart. It really would contribute nothing to saving my M by seeing her and having a concrete visual. And that gives her too much power. I don't want to get caught up in that and distracted from our real goals.

Having said all that, I am still open to hearing other points of view if anything thinks there's real value in going to the office and seeing OW in person.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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Journaling...

Just reflecting on how blaming adversely affects my feelings towards H and inevitably creates distance between us. Its so hard NOT to blame and be angry...he had a frackin AFFAIR for crying out out!...but when I take a more balanced, compassionate view I can feel *myself* warming towards him and that draws him in. I could see in his eyes last night that he was withdrawing again. Even though I did not 'lose it' outwardly he knows me well enough to know what's running through my mind. It's so hard NOT to want to lash out at him, I feel so justified and all my friends and family feed that feeling. I need to keep reminding myself that this mentality hurts our larger goal of saving our M. I do want to be compassionate and understanding. I need to hear more about his hurt and unhappiness that led to the A.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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Thinking a lot about things I want to ask H about the affair and here's what I've come up with wanting to know at this time. If H is open to it, I am thinking of emailing the list to him and telling him we can discuss whenever he feels comfortable/ready.

Feedback very welcome.

• I know talking was a very important factor in your unhappiness and the affair. I would like to work on making that better for us. What are some things that you would like to talk to me about but felt that you couldn’t? What can I do to help you feel more comfortable opening up to me?
• I believe being able to openly talk about our attraction to others will be important in helping ensure this doesn’t happen again. When exactly did your attraction to her begin? If you could go back in time and we had a marriage where you were comfortable discussing these things when do you think you should have first told me about her? I have often said that you should have come home the night you first kissed her and told me but the more I think about it the more I wonder if you should have told me about your attraction even before that. What are your thoughts?
• You mentioned that when the affair began you felt that I did not love you. What are some things I do that make you feel loved? What should I be doing more (or less) of to ensure you feel I love you?
• How did the affair make you feel about yourself? Confident, attractive, smart, respected, sexy, romantic, others? Which feelings meant the most to you during the Affair?


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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Originally Posted By: mdu
I am definitely giving her way more headspace than she deserves and will likely distract from the real, underlying issues in our M.

I have been feeling like not wanting to see her says something negative about me, like that I'm too chicken to face up to her. When actually I think it means that I'm playing this smart. It really would contribute nothing to saving my M by seeing her and having a concrete visual. And that gives her too much power. I don't want to get caught up in that and distracted from our real goals.

Yes, yes, yes. Stick with this. She's road kill, already.

As for your list above, I want to hear what others have to say. Keep in mind we have opposite genders in each role. I can see myself asking my WW those questions, and I think she'd jump all over it, because it's so touchy feely. However, if she came at me with that list, I would be praying for the heavens to open up and take me. I don't know, maybe as a wayward, the recognition of the damage and desire to fix it would get me through. Now that's just me, and maybe that's why I am where I am today. Just a first impression. I'll shut up now, because I have no standing, and I'm probably about to learn something.

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Agree with Zew. That list would make me run for the hills. Men are simple creatures; maybe just see if you can get him talking about the 2nd-to-last bullet point.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Thx for the feedback. I will definitely keep it under wraps and maybe just focus on the 2nd to last bullet as you suggested, Starsky.

Having said that, I wonder if it's the volume that is a turn off more than the individual questions themselves? Like it's just all too much at once? As we all know, I do tend to want to push and plough through things. I'm wondering if a better strategy would be keeping a list to myself and maybe slowly bringing them up individually when the timing seems right and like he's open to it. That way I can get what I need but do it at a pace and in a manner that would be more comfortable for him?

Thoughts?


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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It's a man thing, not a volume thing.

Thankfully Starsky backed me up on this. Maybe it's not just me.

You know your H better than we do. Was he ever capable of such a conversation? If so, I'd proceed very very slowly. And the second to last point is definitely the easiest place to start. The answer you get to that question may quell the urge to ask some of the others.

Baby steps.

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Thanks zew. I will definitely take it very slowly. This type of convo is definitely NOT a strength for H. I think the most important questions to me are bullets #2 and #3. I will try to find a good time to attempt discussing #3, see how it goes and if I feel the need to try #2 after that or not.

I seriously do not feel like I understand men AT ALL these days. It's really eye opening.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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Quote:
Having said that, I wonder if it's the volume that is a turn off more than the individual questions themselves? Like it's just all too much at once? As we all know, I do tend to want to push and plough through things. I'm wondering if a better strategy would be keeping a list to myself and maybe slowly bringing them up individually when the timing seems right and like he's open to it. That way I can get what I need but do it at a pace and in a manner that would be more comfortable for him?


BINGO.....

Men HATE relationship talks all the time...

How about just having some fun and enjoying things??
Can't you do that? All you seem to want to do is talk about the relationship.

As you mentioned,slowly bringing things up is your best option if you have to.....

Have some fun and enjoy things JUST as they are for awhile.
Not only for him, but for YOU... Some women just have to have something to worry about. Addicted to worry.


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Journaling...

Had an interesting day. Felt pretty depressed, wanting H home. Actually lazed around quite a bit (NOT good for my PMA!!!). Kids had friends over and they kind of destroyed the house bc I was not keeping a close eye, lol! I really wanted to call H and start trying to guilt and manipulate him into coming home. I nearly did, several times. But ultimately resisted the urge. Finally I sent H a text just saying Hello. He immediate replied and asked about my day. A very pleasant chatty exchange followed. I am so glad I resisted the temptation to control. It's so freakin counter productive but feels so RIGHT in the moment. Man, I really struggle with it when things don't go precisely MY way!


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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I think I've mentioned before my stepson is getting married in October. His fiancé's bridal shower was yesterday. She and I are pretty close, she is really upset over what's going on with me and H. Someone took a really nice picture of she and I and she actually sent it to H. His parents both have digital frames and H forwarded the picture to both their frames. I thought that was very sweet of him and a very positive sign. Now imagine if I had made that call I mentioned in my post above and tried to manipulate and pressure him into coming home?? I'm glad I didn't act but wish I were at the point where I didn't even have the urge.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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mdu,

These posts take me back a few months, to a time when you swore your H didn't have it in him to step up to the plate and lead in your M.

It reminds me of how much we ALL have to learn ... because we really know so little about our own relationships when we find ourselves here, even though we think (or assume) we have our spouses figured out.

Not that *I* matter in the grand scheme of things, but you are blowing me away, more and more, with how you are dealing with things these days. You aren't losing your cool. You are choosing - even with repeated opportunities - not to push or guilt H like you've done in the past. You are rationalizing, thinking forward instead of looking back. You are giving H the wheel.

It's great to see a new, improved mdu.

I'm betting H feels the same.

You are KILLIN' it!


M: 40 H: 44
Married 14 years
S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M
2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart
Piecing: April 2014
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Thanks Train.

I think what I've learned is H does still need a 'green light'. So for instance, he did not contact me all day yesterday but as soon as I sent a 'Hello' text (green light) he was all over it. He definitely looks for positive signs from me first, then he's good to go.

I'm struggling today with the idea of OW at work. I don't know why it's hitting me harder today than previously. Probably because I saw her office space the other day and the reality really hit home. Ugh! I am still wondering if I should go to the office. Not to confront her but it annoys me that I feel like I can't freely go to H's office whenever I want. That doesn't seem right.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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I'd steer clear of the office until you feel you can go in there with confidence. There are plenty of other places you can see H.


Me: 31, W: 29
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I wouldn't bite off more than I could chew in these fragile first days.

I feel your pain, though, mdu, I really do.

Right now, though, I'd focus on building POSITIVES in your M. Positive experiences and positive memories. I'd encourage you - especially while things are so fragile and you are (very understandably) on an(other) emotional roller coaster - to steer clear of OW. Why poke that bear right now?

It really comes down to what you think you can handle - and how you think you'd feel during and after.

The last thing anyone would want for you is to see your focus switched from your M to OW, who - as zew has accurately said - "is already road kill." And I'd hate to see it send you into a spiral.

Then again, I think you're demonstrating a lot more "emotional stability," if you will, lately.

Sit on it, and I bet you'll come up with the answer. smile


M: 40 H: 44
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S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M
2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart
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Thanks Train and Barrybran.

I think there will be two key barometers to determine if/when I will be ready to go to H's office with OW there: 1). am I in a place where I can do it really confidently (as you said, Barrybran) and 2). are H and I ready to do it collaboratively, so I do NOT use it as an excuse to unleash on him.

I think I'm still falling short on both, especially #2. So it's not quite time, I'll hold off.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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We had another positive exchange last night. After our night together for his work event when I woke up with nightmares about H and OW I did some on-line research and emailed H a couple of articles about dealing with triggers after an A. H read them and emailed me back asking if there's anything specifically he can do to help. In my reply one thing I suggested was that he could help me keep the focus on US rather than OW. I gave an example and said that I was thinking of asking him about what he and OW used to talk about (because talking is something he said they did a lot and attracted him), but instead I thought it would be wiser to ask him questions about what he wishes WE talked more about. He agreed and actually answered all my questions about talking (I didn't expect that, was just trying to give him examples of focusing our M work on us rather than OW).

If you all recall my list of questions from above he essentially answered bullet point #1. And very easily and happily. So maybe he's more open to this type of conversation than I give him credit for. I think emailing about it might have made things a bit easier as well.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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OK, so you sneaked one in. Please back off now. I have this feeling like you want to go down that path come he!! or high water.

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Originally Posted By: zew
OK, so you sneaked one in. Please back off now. I have this feeling like you want to go down that path come he!! or high water.


x 2.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Hmmm...I'm surprised by your advice. Isn't a fundamental principle of DBing do what works? I 'snuck' one in...and it WORKED. Why would I slam on the brakes? They're good questions, his replies to the first one gave me a lot of helpful info. He even said in his reply it was a good question. I'm not saying I'm going to dive in with both feet this instant but if he's receptive to answering my questions (one at a time, when the timing seems right), why would I completely halt?


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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Because, as a man, I would feel "Great. I gave her what she wanted, and -- in typical "Old mdu" fashion, I'm now getting a blast-of-heat asking for more."

You don't want to convey a sense of "Whatever I tell her, it's never good enough."

I could of course, be wrong.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Originally Posted By: mdu
Hmmm...I'm surprised by your advice. Isn't a fundamental principle of DBing do what works? I 'snuck' one in...and it WORKED. Why would I slam on the brakes?



I could easily flip this around and say "asking for ONE answer right now, WORKED."


And so now I'm advising that you continue this "less is more" approach when it comes to the navel-gazing questions.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Fair enough, but that's not my plan. When I say that I will ask him the other questions I really mean when the time seems right and he's open to discussing things that might help us, it could be WEEKS from now. I have no plan to pin him down and grill him. I am in complete agreement that is counterproductive.

I have been trying a strategy of when I have questions or concerns I write them down (so I won't ruminate over them -- but by documenting it I know I will address it at *some* point) and then periodically try to weave into the convo with H when he seems receptive.

I also try to consciously think of the 5 to 1 positive to negative ratio. So when something gets tough between us I try to get us and keep us in positive for a while before attempting tough again. With that in mind, I definitely have no plans to ask him any more 'heavy' questions for at least several days, if not a week or more, if necessary.


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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I honestly don't understand why you can't just let things be? Can you stop and think about that for a bit. Why can't you just let things rest right now? Things seem to be going well yet you post message after message scheming to push things in one direction and to get more info to satiate your anxiety. Why can't you just rest with your anxiety and let whatever arises move you to being a better/stronger person in dealing with uncertainty? Every message you post is premised on some kind of control of the situation. I know this is hard and you seem to be doing so great, why do this now?

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Originally Posted By: mdu
I have been trying a strategy of when I have questions or concerns I write them down (so I won't ruminate over them -- but by documenting it I know I will address it at *some* point) and then periodically try to weave into the convo with H when he seems receptive.

Just a thought- I read an article recently in which the H who had an A started a private blog for his W only. He used it to answer all the questions she had, but answered as he was ready. It seemed to work for both of them as the H didn't feel attacked and the W slowly received her answers.



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what unbidden said ^^^^.

Also, back to your list - points 1 and 3 are positive, and related to you as a couple going forward meeting needs. Those are softballs.

Points 2 and 4 invite comparison of you and OW, all the while poking a sharp stick at H for what he did. They vividly bring OW back to life. And one of the things he liked about OW was that she wasn't the Spanish Inquisition. Those two points are land mines, for way down the road, after he's back in the house, and after you yourself can go for weeks on end without thinking of OW. I don't think you are anywhere near ready to talk about OW because it will set you into a tailspin.

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Believe it or not unbidden...this IS me trying to rest with things and slow down. Typically I'd be going at it MUCH more aggressively. It's very helpful feedback to hear it's still not slow enough. I'll keep working at it.

Zew, I really appreciate the feedback on points 2 & 4. I did start to realize that about point #4 but notsomuch about #2, it's good to have that perspective.

Thanks again all!


M: 42
H: 43
M: 8 years
S7 and D4
H has D19 and S25 from previous M
Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA
1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail
2nd separation: 5/1/14
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Just chiming in with my .02:

mdu, maybe it would be easiest to pull back for a second and think of it like this: you're still supposed to be in re-attraction mode. You're not necessarily in the stage of your M/S where you guys are actively and deliberately committed to "working on things," right? Or did I miss something?

Too much "heavy" stuff too soon, like the guys said, is not a good move.

You'll have many opportunities to work on those heavy issues once H is fully re-committed.

In the meantime, ask yourself if your goal is to try to foster more communication with H because that's something your relationship was missing and he received from OW *or* if you're trying to ask questions (under the guise of fostering more communication) but you're really fishing for information/answers/assurances and/or nudging H.

If you're trying to open the door for more communication, definitely start out with MUCH lighter talks than R or OW talks. You want your conversations to attract H back to the M, not make him feel awkward or cornered. Any mention of the A - whether the WAS admits it or not - brings up a lot of shame and guilt in them. And I think it's way too early for you to put a mirror (or microscope) in front of H at this stage; he's probably doing enough of that himself.


M: 40 H: 44
Married 14 years
S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M
2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart
Piecing: April 2014
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