Keeping it real

[Zues126]

My last thread was getting a bit long and I'm not the newbie anymore. Here's the old:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2464266#Post2464266

Quick summary- I have had a problem living in reality, hence my thread title. I was never there for my W because I lived in a different world, and I hurt her by trying to get her to live in my fantasy world, pressured her to do things sexually she didn't want, and was critical that she didn't measure up to my impossible expectations.

Since I've moved out I've been trying to get to know the real world. It's not easy. I question everything. For example, I was looking at women as objects of a fantasy. And though I quit using porn two months ago, I haven't stopped the solo activity that accompanied it. I didn't realize it was a problem (not like it's taking over my life and causing me consequences) but the point is that feeling the need to do that, fantasizing, using it to feel more relaxed or less needy, it's all along the same lines.

I'd recommend ANYONE who struggles with ANY type of fantasy addiction (or who's S does) to read 'the most personal addiction' at sexualcontrol.com. It says there are two kinds of needs for sex. One is the need for emotional connection, expressing love, sharing. The other is addiction driven, need for a mood altering rush, one based off control to avoid emotional intimacy or fear of rejection.

So I have a long way to go there. Also, I feel like I am scared of slipping into fantasy everywhere now. Fantasizing about how much healthier I'll be down the road after I grow for a while. The possibility of reconciliation. The good times I'll have on my own again. How much happier my future R will be either way. Etc. Sounds normal to most people maybe, but with my history of telling myself stories to escape reality I just don't know that it is healthy. Even spending time reading other peoples posts is a little escapist.

And, like many addict types, I am out of touch with my emotions, live in my head, and can spin crazy stories and tell myself that they're real. Those stories (perspectives on how I feel about my R, my sitch) tend to differ depending on what emotions I'm trying to cope with. I don't trust much right now.

So I'm just trying to ground myself. One cool thing I learned about emotional awareness is how to figure out how you're feeling. It can be hard for me, so start just with: "Am I feeling mostly OK, or kind of lousy". Even if I'm not in touch enough to really understand myself, it's a starting place so I can start reconnecting with myself.

Anyway, I've been doing pretty well this week, with a few moments of overwhelming heartbreak thrown in. One thing I know. This is the life God has given me (granted it's mixed with the consequences of the choices I have made). I can't wait until I'm 'better' someday to enjoy it so I've been allowing myself to enjoy the struggle that is life. Thanks for sharing.

[Spacey]

Hey Zues, sounds like we have some similar personal issues. I grew up with an angry, sometimes aggressive father, and was told all throughout my childhood and adolescence to "do what I say, not what I do" and to "not be like your father". I learned to burying my negative emotions, to denying my anger, and to disconnecting from my feelings.

My wife was also angry and aggressive, which really caused me to retreat from my negative emotions. It really reinforced my bad emotional habits.

Very often, I don't even know when I'm getting angry. If I'm upset by something, I don't know why. A little over two years ago I started seeing a therapist, and it really helped (unfortunately, I had to stop seeing him for financial reasons, but once I'm working again...). Slowly (very slowly) but surely, I'm starting to identify that thing that I feel when I feel slighted or abused as anger. I still have to tell myself that I'm feeling angry (kind of like when you start to learn a second language, and you have to tell yourself what you just read or heard in your own native tongue; I have to translate my negative feelings into English to understand that I'm feeling them), and very often I don't tell myself until after things have died down, but at least I'm making progress on that front. I'm hoping to get to the point where I can say to myself "you're starting to feel angry right now".

If you're as disconnected from your feelings as you say, I can't recommend this strategy enough. Just tell yourself how you feel. If you think there's something you should be feeling, given the current circumstances, but you don't believe you're feeling it, tell yourself that you actually are and see how you react. Don't pussyfoot around with weasel words, either. No "I should be feeling happy right now". That's a judgment call, and you've no need to get judgmental with yourself. Just tell yourself "I'm feeling happy, because..." or "I'm feeling angry right now, because...". Have that discussion with yourself.

Then have it with your support network.

As for the addiction stuff... What I'm going to tell you isn't the majority opinion on addictions. It's not exactly fringe, but it's not common core, either. It's certainly not what you'll hear at most major 12 step programmes.

I'm not an expert in addiction research, nor in addiction therapy. This is just my interpretation of addiction through my socio-political lens. Just to put that right up front.

Addictions follow from escapist activities. They're not, in and of themselves, the problem. They're just the symptom of something else.

There's nothing wrong with porn (well, issues with the industry notwithstanding). There's nothing wrong with sexual fantasy. There's nothing wrong with masturbation. You're not watching porn and self-pleasuring because you have an "addictive personality". You're doing it because the chemical rush that comes from it is acting as a band-aid for some other issue you're trying to avoid.

Also, for the record, this:

It says there are two kinds of needs for sex. One is the need for emotional connection, expressing love, sharing. The other is addiction driven, need for a mood altering rush, one based off control to avoid emotional intimacy or fear of rejection.

is some seriously sex-negative tripe. Sex can definitely enhance the emotional and social connection with another person, and that is most definitely a basic human need. There are a ton of other reasons to want or pursue sex or sexual activities, though, and they're not "addiction driven".

Yes, sex can be used as an escapist activity. So can eating. So can watching TV. So can taking long walks on the beach. No one goes around demonizing gyms for driving addiction. This is pure sex shaming, and it's not healthy. It does nothing but blame the symptom, and distract you from the underlying problem.

You've found a resource that lets you blame yourself, and which contributes to society's demonization of sex and sexual gratification. Throw it away. It's telling you that your symptoms are the problem.


If you were truly living in a fantasy world, I don't think you'd be here. There may be some harsh, hurtful, or scary aspects of reality that you're running away from, but before you continue to believe that you're suffering from delusions, go talk to someone who is qualified to diagnose such a thing. My wife (and her sister), when she started to go through whatever it is that she's going through, had me convinced that I was completely disconnected from reality, and that I was delusional. My therapist said otherwise. It took months of me not believing my therapist before I realized that, of the four people involved in all of this (me, my wife, my wife's sister, and my therapist), only one of us was actually qualified to diagnose me as delusional, and he was the only one of us who was saying otherwise.

Remember, when you're sick and you sneeze, it's not because you have an unhealthy obsession with sneezing. You're not fixated on snot. The sneezing isn't the problem. The symptoms aren't the disease!

You've managed to reduce your porn consumption. You're trying to cut down on the amount you engage in sexual fantasy. If this leads you toward seeing women as whole human beings, who are just like you but with a couple different body parts, that's absolutely fantastic. If you're focusing on your "sexual addictions" as the problem you need to deal with, however, you're just going to find yourself chasing a new dragon.

[Zues126]

Spot on Spacey.

1. Emotions. I agree with your tip about emotional recognition. I've been doing that, even just doing some voice journaling on my cell phone recorder talking about how I feel, why I think that might be. What I've found is even if I think I'm unreasonable to feel that way at the time, it makes sense in retrospect. Not that I have to empower and enable those emotions into action, but at least I can validate them and learn what they are.

2. Addiction/sex. Agreed again these are symptoms. The book actually talked about how destructive 12 steps is for sex/food because these are things that are ok to partake and enjoy, and stated it is when they are used to escape that they become a problem. I did that with porn and sex so it was an issue, but the way to face that issue isn't JUST to stop my behavior, but to learn to feel my emotions and manage them.

3. Delusions. You're right, I'm not delusional. My therapist told me I'm not. He said I can get very 'busy minded' as an escape. I also have the habit of setting wildly expansive goals (best pool player in the world, run a corporation, etc.) to stay busy and focused so I'm not distracted with my emotions. While I didn't hit those goals I went a long way, but meanwhile my M broke down.

So while I have some serious areas to grow, there is nothing broken with me. In some ways that's scary. Because if something is broken I have either 1) an excuse, or 2) something I can 'work on' that might make me better. It's scary because I know I am 100% accountable, and the fact is there may be nothing I can do to 'fix' myself. That means I have to deal with feeling the way I feel right now, not making myself so perfect I don't feel this way.

And how do I feel? Overall I've been having good days, having fun, staying busy, and appreciating what I have been given. At the same time on the quiet of a Friday evening I can tell you I miss having my W's love. But I'm going to face those feelings 'sober'...

Thanks for the reply and warm wishes to those in a similar spot this evening.

[Spacey]

It doesn't sound like you're out of touch with reality, then, Zues. You're not suffering from delusions, and your therapist confirmed it. You may prefer fantasy to reality -- and let's face it, most of us are going to prefer fantasy to reality when we're going through pain or trauma -- but having your head in the clouds is neither a crime nor a personality flaw.

Just another symptom.

I don't know your story, Zues, especially beyond your current domestic situation. I won't even begin to assume I know what you've been through. It kinda sounds like you're running from some painful or traumatic event, though. If so, I've been there. Over and over, I've been there. And if so, you just need to let yourself feel the pain so that you can grieve.

At the end of the day, it's just a moment in time, and it's just a state of mind. Feelings are temporary, even the bad ones.

[Zues126]

I have a question. Is there a benefit to 'hope'?

Right now I am gradually letting go of hope. I don't pretend to have a crystal ball, so I'm not saying there's no hope. What hope tends to do is interfere with detachment, make me fearful and sad, and fixate me on things outside of my control.

When I let go of hope I feel more at peace. I can take care of myself, take care of my children, and focus on becoming the man I want to become. It seems that by accepting that my STBX may not look back I have been doing a bit better.

I still want to grow from my experience, and through that demonstrate 180s, validate her, etc. But I am doing that now more to grow stronger on my own and so I know that I wasn't the one that put the final nail in the coffin.

So please tell me. Is this a start towards detachment, or is there some benefit of remaining hopeful that I am missing out on?

Thank you all and goodnight.

[Zues126]

Just got this in an email...any tips on how to reply?

"I like that we can talk now. It's tough but nice that I can get to know you as a friend as I also learn myself and who I am. I wonder though and will ask... Are you playing pool still or have you transitioned to just poker? I figure asking does no harm. Things are weird with us now but I never want to not be able to ask questions if we want to."

[Spacey]

I have a question. Is there a benefit to 'hope'?

For some people. It depends on what those hopes are, and how you're treating them. As I'm sure you know, the phrase "no expectations" gets shouted from the rooftops around here because many people -- all of us, in one situation or another, I'm sure -- can't make the distinction.

You have to treat your hopes like something that would be nice to occur, but not something that you're relying on. I hope I get a good parking spot at the mall, but if I don't, no harm done.

I hope W will come home, but if she doesn't, life will go on.

There are times when we can't do that, though. Where hopes and expectations are inseparable. If you're going through that right now, it may be best to put those hopes in a drawer, and to not take them out for a while.

If we didn't have any hopes for the future, we'd have no goals, no ambitions, and no drive. Hope can do a lot for us! But sometimes it hurts us, and it's OK to put it away when it does.

...any tips on how to reply?

I wish I had some. Just reading that makes it difficult for me to breathe right now.

[Gotan74]

Hope keeps you moving forward. If I didn't have any hope I think my situation would have crushed me. I hope for everything but try to expect nothing. I am day by day and that helps a lot. I try to make my W days better and have no clue if it is working but I hope it is.

[Zues126]

***Updates*** Got two emails back to back from my STBX:

1. You confuse me a lot. Are you seeing someone? Are you thinking we will get back together? I need to know these things. I'm glad you want to learn about how to raise the kids but I wonder why now. Was it me driving you crazy or do you expect to get back together? I don't know that I can handle either answer but it's bugging me so I have to ask.

2. Seriously why couldn't you have been like this before. You're killing me. I don't get it.

Site was down and DB coach wasn't available so I did my best. I replied with just some generalities, here's the recap:

-I'm trying to focus on the positives, the children and the chance to learn from my mistakes
-The way I was in our R didn't reflect my core beliefs
-With less access to the children I need to step up my game or they won't have me in their life and they deserve better
-I'm trying to focus on the present, trying to control the future just seems like more of the same that didn't work
-I am glad we are doing well coparenting the kids


Maybe it was too long. I tried to remain a bit mysterious and keep it vague. I thought it was progress that she notices I'm doing things differently and acknowledges that she approves. I know, however, she is very mistrustful of all of this and is in no way changing stance on anything.

THEN- tonight she lets me know that the kids had their open house for school and invited me along. I went. First time we'd done anything close to together and while it was a bit awkward at times the kids had a blast.

Anyway, all that being said...back to working on me. I'm having fun, living in the moment, dealing with negative feelings as they come, avoiding destructive behavior, being there for my kids, and really trusting that I can not only accept but thrive with whatever the future holds. Pretty cool. Thank you all for your support along the way.

[Zues126]

***HELP***. Just got this email. How do I reply? Don't need a specific response, just general concept. She keeps asking where I'm at but isn't volunteering anything about where she's at. "A lot has happened" and "I know where I am and what I've done". Oh, for what it's worth...I absolutely would be interested in R, wouldn't really care if there was an OM in the interim...but would need her committed to IC. I know...much too soon for this, just sharing where I am. Thoughts?

***[EMAIL] You've avoided every question about us I've asked. I need to know though since you know it's not a place we planned to be in ever. Are you seeing someone else or hoping for a reconnection? A lot has gone on since you left with me and my personal life but I always wonder and need to know while I wait for someone to take my case. I hate divorce but have loved the release of anxiety since you left and the kids room that they love. But I need to know your thoughts and feelings as you are still 'Zues', still my husband for now and I'm asking for questions to things I wonder every day. Any answer is ok. Don't sensor it no matter what it is. I just have to know what is going on in your head and I can't read you. Never have been able to and I won't try. I know seeing your guy every week has helped you but I wish you'd share things with me. I know the future is scary for both of us. I know where I am and what I've done. I have no clue to you though. Will you share please?