WAH & MLC? - EA/PA - Please Help

[Train]

I'm going to be back to post, I promise!

Helping a friend with a surprise bday party, and I'm makin' up a storm. But I will not forget about you.

Meanwhile, sit tight, mmkay?

[Sam3]

An update & some questions...

On Sunday morning I found out that H had stayed at OW apt.
I texted him & said - "I know where you are. What you are doing is extremely disrespectful to me, our marriage & our family. I know where we stand."

Because I did not know of current status of OW he told me he ended things in June originally. This was my intel that it was still happening.



He called, I didn't answer. He texted with a picture of his place where he stays when out of town. But I knew he had just gotten back. I just said "stop, there is nothing to say."

By that evening - my D5 wanted to call him. After he talked to kids he asked them to put me on the phone.

I told him as I had said before I was not going to live in an open marriage & I would be filing for a divorce this week. At some point we needed to discuss temporary arrangements. I was done. If you read my previous posts - I was really struggling with the information I had, what kind of person he is & if I was becoming a WAS.

He said that he thought we would work things out.
He cried a lot - said he hates his life, doesn't know what else to say. Told me he was emailing me.

Sun night he sent me this text -

H:
Sam, I want to be with you and only you. The question is where do I start? The issues I have with this life of working out of town is making me confused. I don't even know who I am, I feel like I do not have a home, no marriage, no ties to anything. This was all supposed to be temporary. Now I feel like I can't do this anymore. I feel like I need to keep running from you when really I need you.

We do have issues, when were we going to work on them? The talks we have turn into arguments and then I go off to work. The reasons I left our marriage are valid. How do we fix those issues when we are far apart? How do we get a fresh start? I'm ready to work on the marriage if you promise that you are in love with me. Show me love, carry me through these horrible times that I'm away from home.

I can promise to you that I have no ties with anybody. Still to this day I can say I'm not with anybody. I will quit communications and anything else that is a perception. There is nothing else better out there, I know that. I'm just scared that we are going to fall back into this relationship struggle.

I have thought about quitting my job to go home. So I quit and our marriage does not get better. I can't live with that question. Trust me, I try all the time to work out ways to come home permanently. This is why I needed space to take all this in. I didn't want to hurt you. I'm not happy with anything.

You are the love of my life. You are the mother of our 3 children. I miss that. How can I enjoy that when I live away? How can I feel content with my family when I live out of a suitcase and a truck. This was not the life I wanted. I'm coming home one day if it's not too late. I need support. "

Me:

I really appreciate you being so open & honest with me.

I understand that you are confused.

I know that your life is hard.

I'm sorry that you didn't feel loved. I never stopped loving you & I know I didn't express myself well enough.

I'm sorry that you feel like our talks turned in to arguments. I don't want to argue with you anymore.

I can listen to what you have to say.

I don't know where we go from here - guess we need to talk about that & not text.

(I basically copied from the validation cheat sheet & just tried to stfu for the time)


He took the day off work Monday & drove back because we had a family funeral to attend. We talked a little last night.

I asked why he stayed at her apt. He said he was too drunk to drive home sat night. ( His drinking is a HUGE problem)

I know that these are all words & actions speak louder.

My thoughts/questions-
I feel like he is having a knee-jerk reaction to me finally saying I was done.

He has hurt me so badly. And he again said he wanted to talk about what led us there not what has happened in the past 3 months.

I also now have questions about his character from what Intel I do have.
Was I in that much if a fantasy that I had no idea he was up to stuff possibly throughout the marriage?

How can I trust that what he says is sincere? And he's not baiting me to keep me around as plan b?"

I don't even know where to go from here.

Do I suggest a no contact letter & transparency?

If he can't provide I will know that it can't work out for us?

He says this OW is just a friend. I don't believe it for one minute.
The PA/EA is not the deal breaker. Deception throughout my marriage might be.

He is not saying "will do whatever it takes."
Do all spouses have to say those words? Or is what he's saying above as close as I'm going to get from him?

Anyone care to chime in with how to proceed from here?

Thanks for any advice, thoughts, suggestions!

[MrBond]

You did right and have the right attitude. All WAS's do what your H just did after they're caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Then once the LBS takes them back, they go right back to their old ways.

Tell him that it's up to him to put up or shut up. Tell him to start planning on how things are going to proceed towards reconciliation in one week and a specific timeline because you are done.

Then don't contact him.

[Train]

Hey, Sam. I feel like a boob bc I didn't respond a while back even though I promised. Forgive me?

But now that's a moot point.

I agree with Bond; you're handling this the right way. You did great.

Your H, in a nutshell, IS saying, "what will it take?", yes.

And I think it's a perfect time to put the ball in his court and tell him to put up or shut up, as Bond says, and you can absolutely throw out a couple of reasonable specifics: mainly, a NC letter, approved by YOU ... and YOU send it ... and a full transparency plan. In that plan, all detailed cell billing - for ALL phones - would be sent to you. You would be provided usernames/passwords for all accounts, including phones and e-mail. If H moving back home and finding a job nearby is what you would need to start feeling safe again, then by all means tell him that, too. MC, I'd think in your case, would be very important ... but only IF H recommits to the M; otherwise, you are wasting money and time.

And then leave it in his court. And THAT is precisely when inaction is an action. (Making sense now? ) You can give him a timeline, as Bond suggests, so that you're not just waiting indefinitely for him to respond.

Whatever you do, don't tell him everything you know ... or how you're getting your information. Starsky often encourages folks to find one source of intel that a WAS doesn't know you have ... that way you can "trust ... but verify."

You did really good in your conversation, Sam. Really, really good. Slow and steady now, soldier.

[Sam3]

Thank You, MrBond & Train

Tell him that it's up to him to put up or shut up. Tell him to start planning on how things are going to proceed towards reconciliation in one week and a specific timeline because you are done.

Then don't contact him.

MrBond-Meaning how is he going to show me thru his actions that these aren't just words. Do I suggest what I need to move forward? I know earlier in my stitch you told me it seemed I was focusing on the A. So, I made a huge effort to focus on what role I played in our problems. I feel like I can now address the things he needs and work in ways to provide. But, in telling him what I need, is this back to focusing on the A?

Don't mean to sound stupid but I'm really struggling with coming out of LRT and being dark to having normal conversations with him. For the past 2 days he has texted throughout the day just little things about a meeting or how his day was going. He also texted that he is thinking of quitting his job soon. For me to let him know if I hear of anything. (Is that putting responsibility on me?) Also, texted me that he had concert tickets & hotel rooms booked for a concert next month. He wants me to go & if any of my couple friends wanted to go with us. It's feels weird to go back to having frequent communication with him.

Thank you Train for your insight. I went back and reread your thread when things changed in your stitch. It's helpful to see that things can change quick.

I'm concerned that he is just saying whatever he needs to, to string me along. Although, considering how he has acted the past 3 months - not sure he would care at this point.

Why if he was called out again on OW & I told him I was done does he then decide to tell me he wants to work on the marriage? How can he switch his feelings on & off. Like before BD I had no idea anything was wrong. Then Boom.
Now, he decides he wants to work on things. I don't understand.


He still says he feels like we were separated. I don't know how that gives him a free pass to do whatever he pleases. He wants to work on marriage issues that led us to separation not what happened during separation.


I know there aren't guarantees this won't happen again. I don't even know the steps to take to begin working on things. I haven't presented the No contact letter & transparency plan. I want to do that in person when he is at our home this weekend.

He told me that he wants to work on our marriage. Will he still want to work on it after transparency plan is presented? Who knows.

How do you know if you are reconciling and what does that look like in terms of going slow & not ending up right where we left off?

I feel like I don't even know him anymore. I did DB for myself and now I don't want what we had. If the other person doesn't accept responsibility for poor choices during a separation how do I heal?

[Train]

You opened up an awful lot of cans of worms I want to respond to, Sam. Just left on a date with H, so I best stay off the boards for now.

How your H responds to the transparency plan will say a lot about what stage he is in.

Bond may be here before I'm back. So you'll be in good hands.

But I will try to get back to you tomorrow.

Hugs.

[MrBond]

"Meaning how is he going to show me thru his actions that these aren't just words."

I believe I detailed it very clearly.

"Tell him that it's up to him to put up or shut up. Tell him to start planning on how things are going to proceed towards reconciliation in one week and a specific timeline because you are done."

This is his action.

[Train]

I'm back.

But, in telling him what I need, is this back to focusing on the A
No. By telling H what you need, you're actually focusing on YOU. We should *all* learn to ask for what we need, especially from our spouses. This is a lesson that has taken me a while to learn. (I'm still learning!)

I'm really struggling with coming out of LRT and being dark to having normal conversations with him
Go with the flow, Sam. Let H initiate contact. You can keep things cool, calm and collected. Be polite and friendly. Don't take no sh!t though. And don't forget to GAL as you can. Be mysterious. Nothing much changes right now, IMO.

He also texted that he is thinking of quitting his job soon. For me to let him know if I hear of anything. (Is that putting responsibility on me?)
I don't think it's putting responsibility on you, no. I think he's just asking you to pass along potential jobs you hear of near you and the kids. I think this is a positive thing, based on your need to have H close to you if you guys are to reconcile your M. OTOH, I don't think you should go overboard by outwardly seeking a job for him. I'd be hesitant to do much at all for H until he agrees to a NC letter and a full transparency plan. (Let us know how that talk goes this weekend, okay?)

Why if he was called out again on OW & I told him I was done does he then decide to tell me he wants to work on the marriage?
This happens more than you think. When the WAS really FEELS you've detached and you're "done," it seems to rattle them into reality a little. Their gig is officially up.

How can he switch his feelings on & off. Like before BD I had no idea anything was wrong. Then Boom. Now, he decides he wants to work on things. I don't understand.
I don't mean to chuckle at this question, but it's something I've asked H a hundred times since he's been back. It probably varies, depending on personalities and circumstances. But remember, Sam, that As are highly intoxicating. In fact, they are full-blown addictions. I've seen Starsky write this several times, and he talks about it far better than I can; he posted it again on shodan's thread in Infidelity just today; maybe this will help you make sense of how H's feelings can turn off and on seemingly so suddenly:

The problem with all of that is, there's a physiological component to this that is very real, Sho. If she's still in contact with OM (even if it's some sort of "let's step back and cool things off, I need to try to work on my marriage as I have too much invested here" period), her brain is going to be awash in endorphines (PEAs) that will actually chemically BLOCK her from changing her feelings towards you!

Chemically, you won't stand a chance.

THAT is why I'm such a nazi about no-contact and transparency. Affairs are HIGHLY addictive; it's what made an otherwise sane, intelligent adult female NASA astronaut drive across country wearing an adult diaper, so she wouldn't have to stop and take bathroom breaks, as she drove to Florida to avenge her man and confront the other woman!

It's what makes highly successful men and women throw their careers -- and even their families -- away, when it otherwise makes NO sense whatsoever.

It's what causes previously responsible spouses to drain family savings accounts, and run up tens of thousands of credit card debt on their affairs.

It's REAL.

Sam, if you give a drink to an alcoholic, they'll feel and act a whole lot differently than they feel and act when they're sober. Does that make sense?

He still says he feels like we were separated. I don't know how that gives him a free pass to do whatever he pleases.
It doesn't. If you guys were not legally S, then you were still legally M. Period. So that's bullsh!t, and my H used the same bullsh!t line.

He wants to work on marriage issues that led us to separation not what happened during separation.
I think that's wise of your H, actually.

He told me that he wants to work on our marriage. Will he still want to work on it after transparency plan is presented? Who knows.
If he doesn't? Then he still obviously has something to hide, and I'd say you're a lot better off moving on with your life without him.

How do you know if you are reconciling and what does that look like in terms of going slow & not ending up right where we left off?
It looks like A LOT of hard work. It looks like your H taking the bull by the horns and doing whatever it takes to rebuild your trust. It looks like YOU taking a leap of faith and deciding that you'll give it another shot and won't hold over his head what he has done to you and your children. It takes both of you committing to wake up every day and do something loving toward one another. It looks like you both deciding that you will deliberately meet each others' needs ... and even though it may feel awkward at first, you'll do it every day until it feels natural. The VERY FIRST STEP, though, is that your H needs to pen a NC letter ... and agree to a full transparency plan. Then, you will need to tell him what YOU need. Is porn a problem for you? If yes, tell him. Certainly him looking for "ladies' nights" is a problem for you, right? Tell him. Do you need his job closer to home? Tell him.

What are your non-negotiables, Sam? Figure that out before you tell him what you need. Then tell him what you need.

I did DB for myself and now I don't want what we had.
NONE of us want what we had before BD. H and I talked about that just last night: it's ridiculous what we let our M become. H wasn't meeting my needs of affection and intimate conversation; we spent no quality time together because he was working all the time and spending any free time sleeping or with the kids. Meanwhile, I had no desire to have sex with him, even though that's one of HIS top needs. We're learning now how to balance it. Just this week, I told H that we hadn't been on one of our "adventurous" dates in at least a month. He started in with, "Well, we really don't have the money ..." Then, he caught himself and said, "Ok. We have a date Thursday. Mark it down." The next day, he texted me: "Go buy an outfit. Dress to impress. I'm picking you up at 6." And we had an AMAZING time. He gave me what I needed. And I was more than happy to meet HIS needs once we were home.

See how that works?

If the other person doesn't accept responsibility for poor choices during a separation how do I heal?
You WILL heal, with or without him.

What a LBS needs, after an A, varies. Some need to hear "I'm sorry" over and over. Some (like me) don't. Some need to see intense remorse. Some (like me) don't.

What would YOU need to see from your H, Sam?

Again, all of this, IMO, is just me answering some of the concerns/questions you posed. But I think you should sit tight until your H shows he is ready to fully re-commit to your M and do whatever it takes to start earning your trust back. It's up to YOU to decide what he needs to do to start that long journey.

[Maybell]

Train, if you get a moment, could you check out my most recent posts and share your thoughts?

Thanks!

Sorry, Sam...

[Sam3]

Woo Hoo, Glad the board is back up. I was wondering how everyone is doing the past few days.

Thank You Train for your time!

Eventful weekend. We did have a talk on Friday night. I got some answers to his feelings. He felt ignored, unloved, lack of me initiating sex. I was a b!tch to live with, Baby #3 topic was discussed - he said he felt like he lost trust in me - because it wasn't discussed more. (for the record - Baby #3, was not a plan on my part either) I was not on BC. He knew it, I knew it & I thought we were both taking the "if its meant to happen, it will happen approach)

I didn't present a total transparency plan at this point because I have some good intel to find out on my own if he's being truthful- if he indeed cut ties to OW.

I told him I would like him to send her a text message in front of me. He told me he would do that but that wasn't necessary because he already called her on Tuesday of last week (convenient, huh?) to "clarify" with her that they weren't anything and that he was going to work on his marriage. He said he would "send her a text - but that it would look a little weird - to send her a text again to say "I'm not talking to you anymore" after he already had a conversation with her. And that would be putting emphasis on something with her when there was nothing there anyway." Thoughts on this?

He initially lied to me Sunday morning 8/17 when I texted him about where he was that Sat night/Sun morning until he knew that I knew. He denied the burner phone, then said "well yes I have it but it's not working because I haven't put any money on it again."

I think I'm getting "trickle truths" he's only telling me once he knows that I know. And he keeps saying "why does it matter, we were separated. This stuff was not going on before I told you we were over." Which he said BD was on 5/11/2014 - Mothers Day not on the date in my signature.

He does not volunteer information. Answers questions when I ask directly.

He says he is committed to working on the marriage. He told me he loves me in person, on the phone and is greeting me with a hug & kiss.

I feel like he thinks we can just pick up right where we left off.


He did tell me that if things ever started to get off track in our marriage again that he would be sure I knew it & understood we had things to work on. That he wouldn't just walk out again.


And here's the weird thing - I was pretty much convinced that he would never come back. I'm kind of disappointed - maybe, not sure if that's the right word? that this could be over so soon. I still have work to do on myself. And I know that I can and still need to do that. Just a little harder when I'm throwing his needs & the kids that have to be taken out of my limited time also.

My GAL is continuing. Labor Day weekend was supposed to be my weekend with the kids and I already had beach reservations with my mom for the long weekend. Kids & I are still going. H says he will probably just stay in the town where he works since we will be gone anyway. I have anxiety about this.

Saturday night H & I got a babysitter and went out to eat. The heavy stuff and talks are emotionally draining. Although we did have a fairly long drive in the car - about 45 minutes to where we went to eat, so we did talk a little about our stitch on the way to dinner. I wanted to show him that we could have fun and the new, improved Sam. We did have a really nice time. Went to eat & a local bar on the way home for a drink.

The physical stuff is/was a huge problem for him. So I am trying my best now that I have been given the opportunity. That I can give him what he needs affection wise. Even though part of me feels like I'm faking it. I'm very hurt that he muddied up our waters by bringing a 3rd party in. If our marital issues, were still just our issues - I would have an easier time showing my changes. But, at this point I feel like I need to show him that I can provide him that. Right, Wrong? He wants me text him to tell him "I'm thinking about him" or that "I miss him." I would love to do that. But, I wish I knew he had both feet in before I started being really vulnerable to him again. But, I know that he needs it.

He knows that I need some reassurance right now. He has been good about calling & texting throughout the day and at night. But I have major anxiety when he left to go back to work. I'm 3 hours away. OW lives 11 minutes/4 miles away from him.

Am I always going to wonder what if he's with her? What if he ran in to her? Every time he goes to dinner.
If my goal is to provide any financial security to my family - I don't feel like I can demand that he quit his job right now. He makes a very good salary. I know jobs aren't that easy to find right now. And, the job market locally where we live is just not the same as where his job out of town is.

He has an extended family member that has had multiple affairs on his wife. His family member got caught this most recent time after it had been happening 2 years. H said he "didn't understand why family member would do that and live a lie. Why not do what H did and tell his wife that it was over, before starting something else like he (my H) did."
I said "I don't know if they can come back from that." He said, "well we are." and gave me a kiss. So I guess he's optimistic?

If he really wants to do something with OW, he will. I don't want to forever be that wife that doesn't trust him. And he feels like it's his stuff. His actions will show me what he is up to. Especially if he doesn't know about my intel. Although I was thinking of asking him to download find my friends app on his iphone to give me some peace of mind.

I'm really confused about everything and I feel like I have a mountain of work to do still.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far! Any comments are always appreciated.