Living with WAW who will not leave

[pilot]

Haha Casey at the subletting idea. Let me know if it works....

My W is in the same situation...no real income to speak of. She got her mom to apply for an apt with her. How she pays for it, I dont know, and do not really care. I was clear I was not. I have been keeping up paying the credit cards which are in her name which saves her a bit. Your W prob is sticking around because of money. Everything else in her actions says she wants to be away from you. Being apart or separated can be beneficial to your sanity as well as your chances at reconciling. For me I simply HAD to get myself out of the situation we were in where we shared a house but I knew she was going off with OM. I was her babysitter cutting my own work day short so she could go play.

As much as it may stink, use the time with your kids as a positive. Spending time with them may be one of the few joys you really will have at this point in your life. Do not take them for granted.

One solution for your apartment situation is asking the leasing office to let you downsize. Lets say you have a 3 bedroom now, downsize to a 2 bedroom. Saves you money, AND makes the separation easier to force.

At any rate, keep posting and I will be sure to follow...

[Casey]

Pilot,

Thanks for your reply. The more I think about it, the more I am thinking that a childcare-for-rent arrangement is a serious approach. Doesn't have to be physical either; but an attractive, young female living in the same house would definately get the insecurity going in the WAW. It certainly would imply that she (W) is replaceable, and such a future where another woman is raising our son is a distinct possibility.

More likely, I will have to bring my mother here. I talked to her about it but she is busy taking care of her mother. My W absolutely would have a fit at the thought of my mom raising our son; W does not like my mom at all.

I admire the way you have dealt with your WAW; that you are getting such positive results means you must be doing something right. Being more decisive is one of my 180 activities, doing a physical activity every day with my son is another. W told me before that she could never love me because I wasn't close to my son. Well, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...

Don't really have an option for downsizing existing apartment; all the apartments in the complex are 2 bdrm. The rental market here is very tight because of the oil boom and the inflation has made it very difficult to get by on one income. I don't know how WAW will afford her fantasies, but at this point I don't really care. I don't want W to stay because she decides it is in her economic interest to do so. I agree about needing her gone for my sanity, and to increase attraction through giving 180s a chance to work on W who will notice the progress far more once she is on the other side of the fence.

BTW, what kind of aircraft do you own? My family owned a Piper Comanche when I was a child; both of my parents were instrument rated pilots and they used to take me along to aviation conferences all the time, which is how I ended up meeting Yeager and having him sign a paper model of the Bell X1 i had built myself...

[Casey]

Journaling:

Today the weather here was bad with lots of rain and high humidity; my body was so sore from jogging yesterday that I ended up sleeping an hour more than normal and the indoor pool was closed by the time I was awake. I will have to start waking earlier to make sure I have time to go. I still can do pushups and situps though. Have to keep doing a little something every day!

I noticed two things from my physical activity yesterday. My appetite was much less but in a good way; no cravings for junk, and my good mood was off the charts! Must be endorphins or something, but I was in a very good mood at work and more outgoing than I have ever been! The changes are probably so dramatic because I have not worked out in years...

If you are feeling down, I would highly recommend physical activity as an antidote!

When I went to lay down in bed after work W was still asleep, but a few minutes after I laid down she got up and left to sleep on the couch. This behavior used to annoy me but today I just shrugged it off. Whatever... Its her loss!

I have been continuing to work on detachment; one big part of that for me is to stop the looks and the comments about beauty, appearance, figure, etc. I did not do that once this afternoon.

I have decided I need to update my wardrobe and become really fastidious about my appearance. In my experience my male coworkers often complain about how their wives let themselves go, but it seems to me that most men do that to a far worse degree than women do because there is a perception that a spouse's physical appearance is not as important to a woman as it is to a guy.

Thoughts?

[Ss06]

I've done a lot of personal research about what can help a negative or depressive outlook and exercise, even a 15 minute walk down the street, can REALLY do wonders for depression. Seeing progress also helps, but just the work can completely change your perspective to the point that I'd almost recommend that before making a big decision people exercise. I feel like I'm the real me after I've worked out. I'm more level headed, calm, happy, vibrant and genuine (even though I'm a sweaty mess with eye liner dripping off my face - LOL). Keep it up. It's a game changer on so many levels!

I like that you're updating your wardrobe but I love even more your use of the word fastidious. It's one of my favorite words and not used nearly enough, IMO.

Anyway, yes, many wives "let themselves go" but I think many people underestimate what carrying babies does to a body over time. I'm not excusing excessive weight gain and general unhealthiness at all, I just think some people are quick to say "she let herself go" when women's bodies go through changes that a man's body NEVER faces. Plus, men are very visual so the notice looks and often say one of their primary wants is a trophy-like wife. My H happens to be over 100 lbs over weight. He has always been heavier but technically he has "let himself go" (this is something he has blamed on me, btw). My lack of attraction for him has very little to do with his weight. It is 99% about his own lack of self esteem and confidence. Often when a woman is over weight and a husband dislikes it the woman has "let herself go" but if a man is overweight and a wife dislikes it, she is "shallow". Just my $0.02 on the matter.

[Casey]

Ss06,

I can only speak with certainty for myself, but I would imagine it is true for other men that being out of shape and overweight hurts a guy's self confidence a lot. I can recall that when I was in shape my confidence was through the roof, almost to the point of arrogance. That was when I really started noticing flirting from other women and started flirting back; it is enormously flattering when you realize the opposite sex finds you attractive.

I think a big part of fixing my M has to do with fixing my perception of myself. In fact, I think it is almost all about fixing myself. If my W decides to come along then that is her choice but I have no control over that. At the end of the day, changing myself is really all I can control.

[Casey]

Plus, men are very visual so the notice looks and often say one of their primary wants is a trophy-like wife.

I wanted to address this from a guy's perspective; IMHO a lot of women really do not get this, or brush it off as shallow or unimportant.

My first W was never a trophy W in appearance; I married her more out of loneliness and insecurity, but when we met she was witty and smart and a size 4. We married six months later and by then she was already a size 8, and she barely fit the wedding dress that she had picked out after it had been altered several times. When we finally divorced six yrs later, she was a size 18, and we had never had children (thank G*d). It bothered me enormously and it was one of the primary reasons for me divorcing her although I never dared to say it. She still was smart and witty, but the physical appearance bothered me enormously and changed my perception of her other attributes to the detriment of the M.

I tried to get her to work out with me, I threatened her, I worked on myself in the hopes that she would get the hint and do it on her own. In the end, as I became more confident with my appearance and health, I started allowing myself to think about a life without her, and eventually when my disgust and loathing reached a certain point I initiated D.

I realize this was very cruel to her, and years after the fact I can look at it honestly and my motives for doing what I did. At the time I justified it over her bipolar issues, anger problems, and poor health (she was diabetic), but it really was her weight and poor appearance that bothered me more than anything.

To men, who are visual creatures, a spouse or gf is a reflection of what they think of themselves. According to Ayn Rand:

“Love is blind, they say; sex is impervious to reason and mocks the power of all philosophers. But, in fact, a man’s sexual choice is the result and the sum of his fundamental convictions. Tell me what a man finds sexually attractive and I will tell you his entire philosophy on life. Show me the woman he sleeps with and I will tell you his valuation of himself. No matter what corruption he’s taught about the virtue of selflessness, sex is the most profoundly selfish of all acts, an act which he cannot perform for any motive but his own enjoyment–just try to think of performing it in a spirit of selfless charity!–an act which is not possible in self-abasement, only in self-exaltation, only in confidence of being desired and being worthy of desire.”

She said this far more eloquently than I could ever dream of, but the point is made; men judge other men by the women they choose for partners. And men do not usually marry a woman who has let herself go unless they have serious self esteem issues or other problems that color how they view themselves. When the woman "lets herself go", it hurts a man's pride and his perception of her value. Women minimize this by saying it is sign of a shallow man but really it is no different than a woman choosing a man based on his income or perceived power among other men, and desirability to other women.

Anyway, that is my $0.02 in reply; feel free to flame away...

[Casey]

More journaling...

Past several days have been mostly good; of course I only saw W for Sunday evening and half hour Monday night after she got done with work, and for an hour Tuesday before she had to go to work. When we were in close proximity we almost could be mistaken for a normal couple. W initiates conversation with me and laughs at comments; tells me all about her problems and trials at work, etc. I have learned to just shut up and listen/validate instead of try and fix her problems.

I have a hard time imagining that W is in affair with another OM right now. The avoiding me and avoiding almost all physical touch says that something is going on but when we are together one could not tell there is a problem, and there really isn't until we are in a situation where touching could happen. Why is W like this? What is going on in her mind?

W will text me when she gets home from work to thank me for something like leaving dinner for her or doing laundry/dishes/etc, but ignores me otherwise and I have learned to avoid texting her during day because I know she will never answer. When I told her that I agreed it would be best if we lived apart last week she agreed and then has not brought it up since.

I have continued to work on my physical shape and appearance. Been reading on wardrobe for men; I prefer a more traditional, classic style and I really need to work on updating my threads. I have let myself go in that regard; when I am not working I wear blue jeans and t-shirts which I wear until they are too worn out to wear further. Looked at fixing teeth; mine have always embarrased me since I was a kid because they are crooked and parents could never afford to get me braces. I will have dental insurance in Oct which will help with some of the expense. W used to tell me I never smiled and I always look too serious; I never smile because I am ashamed of my crooked teeth.

I have to save some money for flight lessons; I need to be able to take several lessons a week to avoid having to waste time in review when I actually start flying. Going to buy my books for ground school on 1st; I am thinking I can at least start studying so I can pass my written exam while I am saving money for flight lessons. When I was talking with W Sunday evening I mentioned resuming flying lessons and finally getting my pilots license. Her reaction was positive, and she said that would be good because we could fly to Minneapolis for the weekend instead of driving.

I have been really trying not to read anything into Ws actions and comments. I know, believe none of what she says and less than half of what she does; yet it still drives me crazy speculating on motives. Guess I am so eager for normalcy I am allowing my detachment to slip. I want W to see and experience positive interactions from me, yet I don't want to give myself false hope or a friendship to her if she is still involved with OM.

Those of you that are more experienced with this stuff feel free to offer advice or words of caution...

[Casey]

Question for anyone reading this thread; do any of you have WAW who uses rudeness to maintain emotional distance? How have you dealt with this issue?

I have noticed a pattern where my W will let her guard down enough to enjoy herself in my presence and interact with me in normal conversation, then shortly after will turn on the rudeness to keep distance between us. I have dealt with this by ignoring the rudeness and acting like I didn't hear her tone and attitude when I respond. "Believe none of what you hear and less than half of what you see", right? I used to get mad and respond in kind; tell her I would not tolerate being talked to that way, etc., but W seemed to feed off of this negative energy so now I just pretend I didn't hear it.

Any thoughts? Other approaches?

[nit84]

Casey,
My W does the same things, although much shorter bursts.

She will ask a question I will answer it she will say something else about something then right back up to the bedroom with the door shut.

I never have expectations but if you approach me with a question or a comment fine don't then turn around and be rude and shut the bedroom door because I walked past to go to mine.

I will say hi every once in a while and she will respond back with Hi but then back to the room.

It can't be pleasant to shut yourself off from the world.

I get not wanting to talk to me. I am the enemy. Why is she still living under the same roof. She received a judgement in her favor to have me pay spousal support to allow to move out but she is still here. some talk about moving has come up recently but it has been 2 months since the hearing and no action to even pack up stuff that is personally hers and not involved in property distribution.

It is very confusing to me

[Casey]

I have been reviewing the "chaos kid" articles I came across when I first started having problems with W last Sept. Everything makes so much more sense now and is more relevant than when I first came across it. Of course, that is good for explaining the why, but I am more interested in the "how to fix it" at this stage in the game.

This past several days has been very trying for me. I am just about at the limits of my patience, but it has to do with money and not with rudeness or coldness,etc. Since we have separated our accounts I have lost visibility of how much money she has and what she spends it on, which is of itself not important but what I have a problem with is the disconnecting all the bills that used to be paid from that account and refusing to pay any of the joint bills when I request that she do so. In the last week I have had to pay the phone bill, the car insurance, a credit card that she uses which is in my name (I know, foolish; we got it prior to BD), and the electric bill. I have always paid the rent entirely on my own as the lease is in my name, but all the other bills were either her responsibility or shared.

So, I cannot get her to leave, and I cannot get her to start paying her share of the bills while she lives here. I know she has been paying down all of her cards and bills and I suspect she is also hiding money so she is able to leave me. In fact I hope she is because I am thoroughly sick of this. I talked to the wireless provider about getting her off of phone account, but if I do so I get a pretty hefty early termination fee. So I still have about three or four months remaining before I can do so.

This behavior on her part is passive-aggressive, because when we are together she is polite (mostly) and initiates conversations; we have talked about this issue and last time we did she promised to go with me to open a joint account and set up direct deposit from both of our banks to make sure that money for joint bills was being set aside. Yet it was just that; talk. Nothing further happened and when I raised it again this Tuesday she had an excuse and said some other time.

I am sure there are others on this forum who have dealt with a similar issue; how did you handle this problem?