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Hi all,

This is a continuation of my previous two threads. I'm 3 months out from "bomb drop" day when my affair was revealed. I'd ended the affair 5 weeks prior, but that didn't provide much consolation to my lovely fiancee.

Now, I'm in the middle of obsessing what to do next. I'm writing and rewriting an apology letter (it's been ~6 weeks since the last time I proactively reached out), despite the polite protests of many a friend on here. And I have mounting worries that she is rushing to move on. That's her post-breakup pattern. She once remarried within a year.

I'm also GALing to some degree, but most of my friends (mostly common friends) know I'm still just scraping bottom. The depression is debilitating. And the fixation that "she is the only remedy" is not seeming to go away, despite many slaps to the side of the head .

So... what to do next? I'm making MANY positive changes in my attitude towards sex, my feelings of "need" regarding attention from women, etc (all the things that led to the affair), but I have no idea how to convey that back to W. Or if I should.

Any M who have been in my shoes and made it work? Any WAWs with advice on how to SHOW change, even incrementally?

-DB


Me: 39 - W: 35
Together: 2 years, no kids
My Affair: 1.5 years
Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
Last Contact: 8/2/14
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DB,

Why do I get the sense that you're looking for the "magic bullet" here? You've not listened to any of the advice we've given freely and on our own time. Wassup with that?!

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1) I am looking for a magic bullet. You got me there.

2) I have indeed taken your advice...

You rewrote my birthday message response.
I'm GALing.
I'm leaving her alone.

3) I'm also trying to get feedback from more people in the community. I went back and read some early posts to BOND's original sitch, and some people were like, "Yes, I'd like to hear how my H would make things better, even if I angrily denied it."

I feel like I'm not getting much feedback from men who were in my exact situation and made it work, or from women who were in my Ex's situation and forgave. Or am I completely mis-reading people's stories?

I'm mainly getting told what to do, and not a whole lot of "Here's what worked for me." I respond much better to the latter.


Me: 39 - W: 35
Together: 2 years, no kids
My Affair: 1.5 years
Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
Last Contact: 8/2/14
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Originally Posted By: DBinSF

You rewrote my birthday message response.


Not true at all. Be careful there, buddy.

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DBinSF Offline OP
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I took your advice to the T on that message...


Me: 39 - W: 35
Together: 2 years, no kids
My Affair: 1.5 years
Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
Last Contact: 8/2/14
Joined: Oct 2004
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Originally Posted By: DBinSF
not a whole lot of "Here's what worked for me." I respond much better to the latter.


'Kay..you got it.

Here's what worked for me.

-Ms. Wonka moves out of the house with the OW in August 2004
-Wrote her a blah blah blah letter in September 2004 (no response)
-Discovered DB site October 2004
-Drank the STFU juice a whole warehouse full of STFU
-Send Ms. Wonka pictures of our dog that I had sometime in Nov 2004
-Ms. Wonka finally sends me a pix of our cat after my picture (a first)
-I send Ms. Wonka a X-Mas card in 2004
-Ms. Wonka sends me one too in 2004
-Ms. Wonka was vacationing in May 2005 and stops by our house (a first in 9 months. notices some changes I've made to the house)

Communication is sporadic between 2005-2007

-Ms. Wonka stays at the marital home in August 2007 after I inform her that our dog was dying anytime
-The next few months were testy as Ms. Wonka pushes to sell our house
-House sold in Spring of 2008

We've slammed the door on each other one time or another from 2008 until 2012. The only communication we had was sending each other brief HBD texts (twice a year...mine and hers)

-I inform Ms. Wonka in summer of 2011 that my father was dying of cancer and that I'm moving in w/him to help through it
-Still exchange HBD texts
-Send out a general email to family/friends of my father's passing in early Fall of 2012 (Ms. Wonka responded expressing her condolences)
-Our first phone call in over 9 years sometime in November 2012 (we talked about my father's passing, touched briefly on how I did not want to be bitter, then Ms. Wonka said the following to me: "I can see how important family is to you. I would like for us to be supportive, encouraging, and respectful of each other." I think I said something along the lines of "We made mistakes. I forgive you."
-Exchange of Xmas cards in 2013 and HBD texts

-2014 Ms. Wonka sends me an actual HBD card for the first time in over 9 years (shocked the heck out of me!!)
-We banter over texts in February, March of 2014
-With help from my lovely friends in MLC forum, I compose an apology letter to Ms. Wonka in late March 2014 [9 YEARS LATER]
-Ensued some deep email communications for the next two weeks

Then I sent her a brief text wishing her a Happy Fourth. Responded 10 days later thanking me for it and said "I will be in touch later."

With that cryptic message hanging in the air, I simply shrugged my shoulders and said, "Okay. Thanks."

Complete darkness since July 10th.

That is what worked for me by respecting her space.

And I am not actively working on romantic reconciliation here...wanted to be clear and upfront with you here, DB.

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I'm a little confused about the variation in your threads. Is this finance the same lady your post was about in 2011......when she told you she did not want to M you and ended the engagement?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Oh wait a minute, are you the same guy that had a thread in Newcomers who was still trying to get his ex-finance back?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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DBinSF Offline OP
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Yes. That's me.


Me: 39 - W: 35
Together: 2 years, no kids
My Affair: 1.5 years
Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
Last Contact: 8/2/14
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Here's the link to DB's previous thread:

2.5 Months After D-day...and I wait

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Wonka,

Thanks for the timeline! I went back to my original thread and dug up your apology note to Mrs. Wonka:

Dear Ms. Wonka,

Before I begin this message, I do want to tell you that I enjoyed your birthday card. It was a very thoughtful gesture and I really do appreciate it. Also our fun-filled text exchanges are so positive and plain fun!

First of all, I want you to know that I come to you with respectful intentions and struggled with finding the right balance in reaching out to you while respecting your space and life.

I owe you an apology and do want to make sincere amends for the pain I have caused you in the last year or two of our relationship. Both of us have experienced tremendous pain, sorrow, and heartbreak as we parted ways. Please let me know how I can make amends with you. I am open to ideas and feedback. As you may agree, I would like for both of us to heal in meaningful ways. Please know that I am uncertain how to go about this and may make a few mistakes along the way.

So I thought I'd take the first step in reaching out to you. It is my hope that you are receptive to allowing the healing process begin anew between us and grant us the space to do so at our own pace in a mutually supportive way.

I am here if you wish to participate in this healing process.

Take care and be well.

Wonka


What is the thinking behind putting the amends back on her? "Please let me know how I can make amends with you. I am open to ideas and feedback." My instinct is to make amends for specific things and propose a path forward (or propose to just let it go). How does DBing differ from that instinct of mine?

Thanks,
Edward


Me: 39 - W: 35
Together: 2 years, no kids
My Affair: 1.5 years
Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
Last Contact: 8/2/14
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DB,

You ask good questions here.

Originally Posted By: StudentIsReady&Willing?
What is the thinking behind putting the amends back on her? "Please let me know how I can make amends with you. I am open to ideas and feedback." My instinct is to make amends for specific things and propose a path forward (or propose to just let it go). How does DBing differ from that instinct of mine?


I think you have it all wrong. I am not putting the amends "back on her"...it is ME requesting how to do so and in what ways I can achieve it for I've caused her a great deal of pain through my crazy MLC chit.

Please note that I NEVER, NEVER assumed knowing exactly what amends to make to Ms. Wonka. This is why I was respectful in my approach to Ms. Wonka. Maybe my notion of making amends isn't exactly what Ms. Wonka is looking for...hence my inquiry.

It is UP TO THE INJURED PARTY to outline what is needed to make amends that will ease some of their pain and reassured that the same actions will not happen again (news flash...it will never go away completely). It is not up to us to determine that. To do so is arrogant and preposterous!

You wrote:

My instinct is to make amends for specific things and propose a path forward (or propose to just let it go)

^^ that alone is a HUGE problem. It is all about YOU and what YOU want. That is a very dangerous path to go down on, buddy. Have you ever stopped to think about what Julia's POV? Doesn't she have any say on any of this at all?? She has her own opinions, thoughts, and feelings as well. Don't be too quick to dismiss her at all.

That is what I did for a long time before I sat down and composed the letter to Ms. Wonka. First and foremost, I worked hard on my chit FIRST. Then I was at a place of strength and was able to put ME aside completely. The focus was squarely on Ms. Wonka and how I can MAKE her feel heard by asking what it would take from me to make sincere amends.

See the difference?

You want to let it go because......

I think I know the answer.

Because you are wallowing in guilt and feeling pain. You just want it all go go away NOW by penning some missive to Julia so it all be done and over with. Then you'll sit all puffed up in false satisfaction that you've ticked that off on your checklist.

Her pain is 100x yours. If you cannot handle working through your own pain, then you will not have the patience to DB successfully. Then you're doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over with other women.

Do you want that?

If not, then pay attention to advice and wisdom passed on here from those of us who have done the hard work and reaped the rewards from it.

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"Don't believe anything they say" refers to the BETRAYER.

Do I need to repeat that one too?

You don't have lines of communication open at the moment but if she contacted you before she could contact you again. So you work to be a great, generous, UNSELFISH man in preparation for the time when she might contact you again. Yes, even if you're waiting in perpetuity. That's the reason for so much of the other feedback you've gotten here.

130 days of "sexual sobriety" is not convincing to a woman who experienced 600 days of betrayal.

Getting rid of doubtful friends is unimpressive. You fooled her, you could fool integrous males too.

Meditation, therapy, and gratitude journaling as a basis for safety? Really? You need to learn how a healthy person lives before you say something like that.

What you said about entrusting her kids to you... That just made me laugh. Not sufficient. You don't know what you're talking about if you think participating in Alateen has any relationship to being In the parenting trenches for 18+ years. You can't be committed enough to her to go 100 days without contacting her because that's what SHE needs. Why should she think you could make it through a pregnancy? Or fertility issues? Or the newborn period? Let's not even discuss potty-training, special needs, bullying, puberty, etc.

Will you cheat on her when she's post-partum, feeling unattractive and worn out and doesn't want to be touched? Does she deserve to worry that you will?

NO PURSUIT. Of any kind. Period.

You may whine that I'm being harsh. I am not. I'm being frank. I want you to be better because the world needs to be full of better people. What kind of man do you want to be?


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
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DB,

I want to add that you might notice that I didn't make it all about me or all how wonderful Ms. Wonka is. That letter had very short paragraphs that got right to the heart of the issue. Nothing about working on me, improving me, or blah blah blah. Cut out the white noise and focused on the main issue: making sincere amends.

I did not try to explain or defend my actions nor did I go into specifics. The bottom line and the plain truth is that I wounded Ms. Wonka deeply. Why do you want to pick at her scabs with specifics?!

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Ok, got it. So you still haven't let it go, apparently. You want a formula and everyone who posted has told you the only thing that has a chance in hades of working. You just won't accept that NC means NC! Detaching, dropping the rope, going dark........all those are not to do for a few days, weeks, or even months.....just to return in pursuing her. It doesn't change......ever, unless or until she goes to you and wants to revive the relationship. You say none of it worked b/c you tried it. The point is not to "try" it out. In your case, you have to live it. I know you don't want to accept it and you want to see something she said as some sign she may be warming to you.....but it's just not. You want to believe she still loves you. I only know she made a decision to end it, based on something more. So now, you need to move on. If she ever changes her mind, she will contact you.

You want to hear from more men and specifically those who have been in the exact stitch as you. I don't know that there are any here who have been in that exact stitch. Maybe there has been in the past, however, I doubt they stayed behind, IDK.

You have had several women, as well as men, to tell you to leave her alone. Stop pursuing. If you cannot do that ONE thing we have all told you.......why do you keep expecting more? We ARE telling you what works.

You are wanting those who had A's to tell what we did to mend the MR and show our S we are sincerly working in the R. What step we took to prove ourselves, make the R better, etc., etc. (Sorry, can't remember you exact wording). Here's the thing, after the A ends and the wayward person gets their act together......it really is up to the faithful S if they want to continue the M or not. The faithful S has a choice to give the wayward S another chance or not. Although the majority of people here on the board are or were a LBS who wanted to reconcile the M.........everyone doesn't feel that way. I doubt you find LBS here who do not want to R their M, b/c this isn't the place for them. Know what I mean?

If the faithful S makes it clear to the wayward S they are done.....and divorces them....that's it! The wayward S has to accept the decision of the faithful S, even if wayward is so sorrowful over the A and would do ANYTHING to make it up to the faithful one. (sound familiar?) To be blunt, your finance divorced you! For her, it is over. She is done. There is no more relationship. We cannot make another person love & want us back. Sorry, we just can't.

Here is all you can do. Leave her completely alone. No type of contact......ever. Learn from the painful experiences you have had in your relationships. Get therapy, take classes that have been recommended. Work on yourself to be a better, stronger, individual who is not co-dependent on relationships. Learn how to let go of what you cannot have....or have been denied. Move forward in your life. Find how to be happy apart from a relationship with some person.

There is no magic. Hate to break it to you, but that's the real world.

I won't bother you again. I wish you well.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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I'd never whine about you, Maybell. You're a sweetheart, and you're always very kind in your tough love. It's that bully Wonka I whine about. LOL. wink


Me: 39 - W: 35
Together: 2 years, no kids
My Affair: 1.5 years
Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
Last Contact: 8/2/14
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Thanks, Sandi2. I appreciate the thoughtful explanation.

I think all of this is hard to me to accept because I WORK in the persuasion industry. My job is to get people to feel and think things, buy products, & love people (politicians). I do manipulation for a living. So, someone telling me I can't MAKE someone feel something simply doesn't ring true.

But I understand that this is an different situation. I'm not able to do polling and run market tests. It's me and Mrs. And she's had enough of my sh!t.

I think the REAL issue for me is I'm FREAKING OUT and all my control stuff is coming up. I feel like a little animal that's sliding down a greased funnel, and I'm just doing anything I can to hold on to the side, but there's nothing to hold on to, and it's getting tighter and tighter and...

And then it's so tight...I can't breathe. Know what I mean?

Letting go is REALLY hard for us ACOA/Codependent/Marketing professionals.

SOOOOO.... when I feel that way (knowing I SHOULD let go, but knowing I CAN'T just yet), I come on here and try to look for SOME kind of answer. Some hint, some clue, some new marketing message, some relief from the pain of admitting it's really over since I can't do a DARN thing to alleviate her pain at this point.

-db


Me: 39 - W: 35
Together: 2 years, no kids
My Affair: 1.5 years
Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
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"DB Continuing: I also read on another thread the idea of "Don't believe anything they say"

That's in the book. The fact that you took it as something you read on a thread leads me to believe that you never read the books. Did you? You said you did it in your first situation, but it doesn't seem like you got it.

"So... why are the crazy belligerence towards me for wanting to offer SOME indication to my Ex about how things could get better? Or for not totally believing her when she says she doesn't want to have anything to do with me? "

Because you are missing the whole point of what everyone is telling you. All of that is about YOU and what YOU want. You've only been at this for a couple of months. You haven't changed. Period.

If you did, you wouldn't have created a letter that was so self-centered. Or to put it another way... you put your d*ck in another woman for one and a half years. Not a one night stand, but YEARS. And now you want to have her happily put it in her. You're right. She should be worshipping how much you changed.

I'll tell you what. Go ahead and send the letter without all of the edits that people have recommended you make. Send it as is. I mean, you say that you HAVE to tell her right? After all, what we tell you are just suggestions. You are the one who has to ultimately pull the trigger.

As you said, you have "nothing" to lose so go ahead and send it. I'm sure she'll appreciate it how much you've sacrificed and changed in two months. And I'm being totally sincere. You have to know one way or another, right or it'll "kill" you since you can't take the pain. I'm sure she's totally happy and not in pain from what happened to her.

Go ahead.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
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Well I am eating my words that I wouldn't bother you again. I wanted to respond to this:

Quote:
I think the REAL issue for me is I'm FREAKING OUT and all my control stuff is coming up. I feel like a little animal that's sliding down a greased funnel, and I'm just doing anything I can to hold on to the side, but there's nothing to hold on to, and it's getting tighter and tighter and...

And then it's so tight...I can't breathe. Know what I mean?


The real issue is IN you. It was there in your other relationships and before you met your ex-finance. And you will be this way with the next woman/relationship. You have to get mentally healthy before entering any relationship so this doesn't continue to play out.

Please hear what I am telling you. The answer is NOT your ex-finance. It is not getting her back. B/c it would not take care of the problem inside of you. You are seeing the solution to your problem is simply reconciling with her. That is not the solution for YOUR problem. Your problem goes much deeper. .

You need to see this is a cheese-less tunel and stop trying to dig further. Stop focusing on her. Focus on you and finding a therapist who will actually give you some solutions to help.

Quote:
Letting go is REALLY hard for us ACOA/Codependent/Marketing professionals.

SOOOOO.... when I feel that way (knowing I SHOULD let go, but knowing I CAN'T just yet), I come on here and try to look for SOME kind of answer. Some hint, some clue, some new marketing message, some relief from the pain of admitting it's really over since I can't do a DARN thing to alleviate her pain at this point.


Are you one of those salesman who keep pressuring the customer, not taking no for an answer......and they buy what you are selling just to get rid of you and make you STFU? If so, some of the stuff you've told us in the past kind of makes sense. Just based on the quote above, it sounds as if your personal life and business techniques have blurred together. You are persistent with her b/c that's how you've been trained at work. Don't take no, and just find a different approach......marketing angle to make your sale. In this case, you are trying to sell "you".

There are some people out there who really get turned off in a big way when it comes to marketing techniques with it's pretty packing, presentations, and all the relentless pressure.......I'm sure you are familiar with that sort of thing. And you know, some folks may cave under enough pressure and buy into whatever product you're pushing......but they don't stick with it. .

It's as if you are focused on making a sale. What technique can you try to get her to buy into it? I believe, based on things you have said here and in other threads, it's some psychological glitch you have. It's as if she was this huge client that you let slip through your fingers and you're desperately trying to retrieve that account you lost.

Don't use marketing techniques on her, okay? Leave it alone. Find help for yourself. Seriously.


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Thanks, Sandi2. I know you're right. I'm basically an Alcoholic going though withdrawal and cravings. The challenge is, an Alcoholic can live an amazing life never touching a drink again. But none of us can go through life without love or sex or relationships. I need to get clean first, and then rebuild a healthy relationship with love and sex. I know that intellectually.

I'm sorry to everyone for being so shrill and pained in the last few days. I went through an especially difficult period this weekend that was exacerbated by a flu/fever and some overall feelings of desperation.

The interesting development today is that she actually wrote to me this morning asking about our gym membership, and if I had canceled her membership. The funny thing is the gym is next to her office and she could just stop next door and see if her key pass still worked or just ask them if it's been canceled. BUT, she chose to use it as an opportunity to ping me.

Maybe I'm not the only one thinking about the other?

-DB


Me: 39 - W: 35
Together: 2 years, no kids
My Affair: 1.5 years
Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
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She wrote:

Hey,

Have you already canceled my crunch membership? I figured you have, just wanted to double check. I want to join again but don't want to pay another initiation fee.

Thanks
Julia


I responded:

Hi Julia,

I had them either pause it or cancel it a few weeks ago when I inquired and they said you hadn't been using it. I'll see if I can have it reinstated when I stop in today, and we can figure out where to go from there. smile

Hope you're well,
Me


----------------

So, no major break throughs, but civil (and unnecessary) discourse...

- DB


Me: 39 - W: 35
Together: 2 years, no kids
My Affair: 1.5 years
Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
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Don't over think it.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
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I'm not. Thx, Maybell.


Me: 39 - W: 35
Together: 2 years, no kids
My Affair: 1.5 years
Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
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So, I just added her back to my account, and she said thanks and that she'd transfer it to her own. End of exchange.


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My Affair: 1.5 years
Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
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Did I lose everybody?


Me: 39 - W: 35
Together: 2 years, no kids
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Affair ended: 4/9/14
Affair revealed: 5/19/14
Last Contact: 8/2/14
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DB,

That is good. Just short, simple exchange. Now back to working on YOU.

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I would add... Put that exchange behind you. You are making too much of it. YOU may think it was unnecessary, but SHE doesn't. What she asked for was basically saving her a step because if she got the answer that she got she was going to have to reach out to you anyway. She didn't need to stop by the gym to ask a question that would have required her to get in touch with you either way.

This is precisely why you need to learn empathy as much as you can.

Is the book Emotional Intelligence on your reading list?


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Maybell, what I'm saying is, if she REALLY wants no contact, why would she break the silence for something so mundane? She didn't need to contact me at all over this. She could have spent the 5 minutes at the front desk asking about this if she wanted to.

Is this the Emotional Intelligence book you are referencing? http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Intelligence-Matter-More-Than/dp/055338371X


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Yes, that's the Emotional Intelligence book.

If she really DIDN'T want no contact, she would have thanked you for your reply to her birthday note. Or she'd send you a note. Or like something on your Facebook page. Or ask a non-business related question.

I can guarantee you that she does NOT want to be reminded of your affair, no matter whether she wants full no-contact or if she wants to be casual about you being out of her life.


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Boy, DB! You just want her to fall at your feet and say, "Man, I made a mistake and I forgive you. Will you take me back?!"

Her reaching out with this so-called "mundane" stuff ins't good enough for you, uh? It's got to start somewhere...right? Yes? This isn't Notebook where you and the fiance stand close together kissing in the rain.

You and your marketing mindset are starting to bleed out here too. Sheesh!

This is real life, buddy.

BTW, Ms. Wonka did NOT contact me at all for 3 solid, dark months right after she moved out of the house with the OW.


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Maybell, she doesn't want to be reminded of the affair? How does she avoid thinking about it when she reaches out to me?


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"Maybell, she doesn't want to be reminded of the affair? How does she avoid thinking about it when she reaches out to me?"

I wasn't sure if this question was serious or not. Of course she doesn't want to be reminded of the A. That's why she doesn't want to be with you.

She's already passed you into the "barely acquaintance" zone. That's to protect herself and her heart.


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For your own health and progress, you need to detach. Have you learned about detachment? If not, learn all you can on what it looks like. It will help you be able to respond appropriately when she finds it necessary to ask you a question, and let that be the end of it, rather than spinning into thoughts of "what does it MEAN?" "does she want more?" "why did she ask that question?" "does this mean I should start contacting her?" <--(no! it doesn't!)

Assume it means nothing, be polite, and stay in your sandbox where you have plenty of work to do.


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DB, she DOESN'T avoid thinking about it when she reaches out to you. That's probably why it took her so long to even use the gym membership.

Read the Emotional Intelligence book.

You're really, really not engaging with your work here. You're seriously backward from where you were even a few weeks ago. If you were making progress you wouldn't be so fired up about contact. Find your humility.

Let me put your affair into perspective for you. If I end up divorced and back on the dating scene, I will NEVER knowingly date ANY cheater. Even if he never cheated on me. I just will absolutely not go there. I'm quite sure I'm not alone in feeling that way, and not only among betrayed partners. So when you cheated on your fiancee, you didn't just pollute yourself for her, you polluted yourself for a whole class of women who think too highly of themselves to put themselves in the position where they COULD be cheated on.

That's the scale of your transgression.

Now, quit thinking about your ex, do the work and be better.


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DB,

Originally Posted By: Maybell
Let me put your affair into perspective for you. If I end up divorced and back on the dating scene, I will NEVER knowingly date ANY cheater. Even if he never cheated on me. I just will absolutely not go there. I'm quite sure I'm not alone in feeling that way, and not only among betrayed partners. So when you cheated on your fiancee, you didn't just pollute yourself for her, you polluted yourself for a whole class of women who think too highly of themselves to put themselves in the position where they COULD be cheated on.

That's the scale of your transgression.


^^ Maybell has captured the essence of why some of us are very gun shy. Even ten years on post-Ms. Wonka, I still find myself being on the defensive and cautious when dating because I will always have this question in the back of my mind. Yep, my walls are up big time when it comes to letting someone come close inside my heart.

I just don't care at all to go through all of this again....EVER!


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DB,

If it stings so much, then you might want to really examine the whys. Get to the very bottom of the source.

Before you were cavalier in your responses about your finance here, now this got your attention. We are good at getting right to the source here in DB forums and hold people's feet to the fire.

Good.

Believe me when I say this, we are not doing this to be 'hurtful' or 'toxic'. You've clearly said that being gentle/soft wasn't working for you so we took on a more tougher approach.

When you are not deaf, not cavalier, not dense...then show us some real empathy for your former fiance and it'll show up.

To date, it has been all ABOUT your hurts, your antsy pantsy feelings, turning on us with counter arguments.

We're working WITH you in pointing you in the RIGHT direction.

You resist, fight, argue, and whatnot with us here at almost every turn.

Then you turn right back at us and throw up your arms with a veiled emotional blackmail about your "attempted suicide".

Get a grip. Seriously.






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DB, I have an assignment for you.

Go read three other people's threads (doesn't have to be all their threads, just several pages of each). Comment on them in a way that is helpful and compassionate. Spend time contemplating their situations. Then report back here.


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Maybell, thank you, but saying no woman with self-respect would ever date me is NOT helpful. That is a shaming and guilt-tripping statement. I GET how big a deal this is. But black and white statements don't help me rebuild my self-esteem.

Wonka, what do you mean gun shy? Gun shy about reaching out to your WAW, or gun shy about re-entering the dating scene?

AND A REQUEST TO ALL: Please, let's keep the tone respectful and supportive. I know this is an emotional topic and many of us have betrayed or been betrayed (although I think I'm the only betrayer on this thread). I know you all have sterling intentions, but TONE means everything. It build trust and self-esteem or it tears them both down.

Thanks again for your attention and support,
DB


Me: 39 - W: 35
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Wonk, I actually deleted the post you replied to, but I hear you...


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I wasn't trying to shame you. I was trying to really hammer home why you need to focus on yourself and not her. I'm sorry you were hurt.

But if we're going to talk about tone, consider yours as well. You're not taking any of us seriously. Calling me a sweetheart and not answering me feels belittling.


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DB,

Originally Posted By: DBinSF
Wonka, what do you mean gun shy? Gun shy about reaching out to your WAW, or gun shy about re-entering the dating scene?


I have dated several women since Ms. Wonka left and my emotional walls are still up to this day. All because of my skittish fear of the person's ability to be truly faithful and monogamous. It is always in the back of my head. I've yet to fully give my heart to another woman and commit fully.

That is my emotional scar that I'll carry for the rest of my life. This is not to say that I am entirely closed off to The One. I'm leaving it up to the Universe to arrange it for me. In due course, I will open up to complete and real love that's safe for me.

FYI: You're not the only betrayer in here. There are a coupla more around here.

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Originally Posted By: DBinSF
Wonk, I actually deleted the post you replied to, but I hear you...


I do hope so...do so very much. smile

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DB,

Wowzers. You're getting loads of great advice here.

~Train


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I apologize, Maybell. What questions have I not responded to? I went back into your post and pulled out the ones I saw. Were there others?

And I'm TRYING to hear what you all are saying, it just doesn't resonate as true for me.


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Originally Posted By: DBinSF
And I'm TRYING to hear what you all are saying, it just doesn't resonate as true for me.


Why not? Because it doesn't line up with YOUR own notions of what "DBing" is supposed to be...?

You got some 'splainin' to do!

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Did you ever read Divorce Remedy? The first lesson in the book is that if you do what you're used to doing you'll get the results you've always gotten. You've got to step out in faith that there is a better way. Trying something different is always going to feel wrong at first. If it didn't, you'd already have tried it.

Can you step out in faith? For your own good?


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I have a copy at home. I will reread it tonight. Haven't picked it up in a few years.


Me: 39 - W: 35
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Ok, I'm reading Divorce Remedy. I've reread the Last Resort Technique and the whole chapter on Infidelity. A few things:

1) Last resort says no flowers and apologies. Infidelity Chapter says you can't apologize enough.

2) Page 140 says: Believe none of what you hear, and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.

3) I'm not finding the "Letter of Last Resort" that I remember my DB coach telling me about a three years ago.

-DB


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DB,

1) She's already GONE so your only option is LRT. The infidelity chapter applies if she was willing to work on the marriage despite your infidelity... see the difference? Yeah. You only can do LRT. If she comes back, then there are other options but until then... no flowers, no apologies.

2) Again, she's already gone. You're not going to "talk her back" or "write her the most amazing letter luring her back". It needs to be on her terms. 100% on her terms. This isn't about convincing her that you realize you made a mistake, are making amends and are doing all this work to make yourself a better man. You don't get to make your case. She doesn't want to hear it and you ignoring that request says more about you than anything.

3) I've not heard of the "letter of last resort" and I've read the book 4 times but MWD does discuss changing the method of the message (writing a letter) if your spouse responds well to that. You are NOT at that place yet.

I find it interesting that you are literally skimming the books to find ways to support your chosen direction in handling all this instead of resigning to the facts which are DON'T WRITE A LETTER unless you're not going to send it.

Sit down and read the book cover to cover. If you're going to DB then DB. Your resistance is incredible (and I say that as someone who resists also!). When you actually read the book all the way through you'll see that MWD discusses "doing nothing" as actually doing something. It's the hardest thing to do in your situation and I truly do understand that. Our instinct is to chase, show our changes, make a resume of our fixes so our WAS can SEE how great we want to be for them. That's the problem though... show yourself. chase yourself. show your resume to us and to yourself. Julia is not in a place to receive your efforts. She's just NOT. Your desire to present them is understandable but her lack of desire to receive them should also be forefront of your mind.

Breathe. Read. Stop resisting.


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DB, I said before... LRT is NOT for the wandering partner. It is for the LBS.

Infidelity chapter says you can't apologize enough and that's accurate... IF you're working things out together. It should be noted that HOW you apologize is at least as important as the fact of the apology.

It's also NOT accurate... IF your apologies sound self-serving, if they are made to get the hurt partner to behave in a specific way, or if they have any kind of caveat to them (I don't think you are, I'm just saying)

It's also NOT accurate if the person has asked for space. The request for space trumps the wandering partner's need to apologize. I had some place i wanted to refer you to for that but I can't find it and I don't have it in me to track it down.

But I really wanted you to read the chapter about beginner's mind and 180s. Because you're not doing the Last Resort Technique. You're in a different situation.

That's all I've got for tonight, DB. I want to help you as much as I can, but it's been a rough week and that's all I've got. I hope you can get back on track. I'll check in when things are better around here.

Last edited by Maybell; 08/20/14 02:17 AM.

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Thanks for the interpretation of the text, y'all. Maybell, hang in there. Sorry you're having a rough week.

-DB


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DB, a lot of people have weighed in for you here... Have you ever gone to check out any of our threads?


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Yes, quite a few. I just don't feel qualified to provide any advice or feedback.


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Why not? You've got perspective that we crave.

And even if you don't feel like you have any good advice, why don't you at least let people know you were there by offering support? Lots of people say "I don't have anything to add, but I hear you."

You'd be surprised at how good it feels to give in that way.

And it changes the way people see you, if you are visibly engaging with stories other than your own.


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Well... My writing exercise continues. Even if I'm not supposed to send it any time soon...
---------------
Julia,

Thank you again for the kind and vulnerable message on my birthday. It really meant a lot to me. I felt your gesture merited a more thoughtful response, even a few weeks later…

I hear you that it really [censored] to “rebuild” at this point. I realize you are still very angry and hurt, and you have every reason to be. When I think of what I did, I can still barely believe it. I betrayed and deceived you in a way no one should ever have to endure. There is no excuse, and you did nothing to cause it. I am so very sorry.

I’m also sorry for my selfish inability to respect your requests for space in the months after the breakup, for my glib attempts to reconnect and minimize what happened, and for a laundry list of other things I did over the course of our relationship that stymied our growth and caused you ongoing insecurity and pain.

Working with Greg and others, I’ve come to understand just how much pain my actions have caused. I know I have to accept your decision. I just want you to be able to heal and be happy again.

Julia, please know that I love you and want nothing but the best for you. If someday you’d like to revisit this conversation or if there’s any way I can make amends to you, I would welcome that opportunity. In the meantime, I wish you love, health, and happiness wherever your path may lead.

Always,
Your loving me


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DB, that's a nice letter and I hope you feel everything that's in it.

Still don't send it. It's the sort of thing you might be able to send someday if you two are ever in personal communication. After you've established a little post-affair history together. If you sent it now it would sound like more of the same.

How are you feeling after checking in with others? Do you sense a difference in yourself after connecting with other people, even if they didn't connect back?

The generosity of spirit is the point.

Hope you're well.


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Thanks, Maybell. I hear you, although I don't agree this would be more of he same. All my apologies to date have been shrill and pleading. They have been "I'm sorry, now can we get back together?"

Just being clear. This is my first attempt at a no strings attached apology.


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And yes, it's been nice to "hug it out" virtually with some other people. Thanks for the suggestion. smile


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I have learned that it's much easier to be clear-eyed about other people's situations than my own. In my own case I have no perspective at all. You read my post about contingent communication? The same is true for you. Your tone may feel different to you but Julia won't necessarily see it that way. It's a nice letter. Don't waste it by using it at a time when she can't appreciate it.


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I'm not being argumentative, but curious... How do you know she can't hear it?


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This may take me a while to get to so I apologize if it's rambling.

I think there are times and circumstances and people for whom an affair is not a deal-breaker. And then there are times and circumstances and people for whom it is.

For me, in a long marriage with a LOT invested in my H (not just the years and the children, but the impacts of choices we've made in our time together), the affair was less of a deal-breaker. In fact, when I first heard about it, I saw it as an opportunity, because things had gotten not great between us and I thought we'd reboot as a result of the shock of his affair.

He has apologized A TON for having hurt me like that. In fact, he'd still be apologizing right now if I hadn't told him that his apologies were preventing us from moving forward in a different direction. They keep the betrayal fresh. It's nice that he's sort-of kind-of taken responsibility for the hurt his bad choice caused me, but it's not the same as actually making amends. Amends can only be done by actions. In my case, amends would have been him buckling down and making the relationship a priority. Which he has not done. Because he's still involved in his own ego.

If he had cheated on me early in the relationship, especially right BEFORE the wedding, it totally would have been a deal-breaker, because at that point it would have been a matter of me being *about* to place my trust in him, but I would have had very little invested in him, and him in me.

If it had been at that time, not only would I have been hurt at the betrayal I would have been furious with myself for not seeing all the signs that he wasn't trustworthy. (Please understand I'm not trying to hurt or shame you... I'm laying out the thinking). Everything I thought I knew about him would be proved false. EVERYTHING -- not just the affair. And I would be kicking myself for being gullible. And him hounding me to take him back... encouraging me, in effect to go against what I had discovered about my flawed judgment and to make the same mistake twice... That would be kind of insulting. Because it would have shown that my self-respect wasn't important to him either.

Now, your ex has two other marriages under her belt. She's on the hunt for the PERFECT guy. So whatever I in my naivete would have thought, she's thinking in her maturity, with her urgency and her sense of prior failures, and all that.

So you spent the first... what? Six weeks? after she found out about the affair begging and pleading and stalking her so that she got increasingly angry and entrenched in her position. Six weeks later you want to present her with another letter. First off, why do you think she would read it at all?

Remember in Sex and the City Carrie had everything from Mr. Big sent straight to a locked folder that she didn't have the password to. This is absolutely something I would recommend to others in your ex's situation. Nor am I the only one who would.

If she does't do that, the first thing she thinks when she sees anything from you is going to be "oh no, more of the same." That's her FIRST IMPRESSION when she sees your name. Now whatever she reads is going to be tainted by that thought, more of the same.

You've had two reasonably successful interactions with her. They are small to you but they are huge victories. Because they've shown that you see she has boundaries and you aren't trying to break through them. You're wiping away that "oh no, more of the same" impression from her mind. That's a big deal.

But those are small victories at the moment. You need to change her perception of you entirely and erase that first impression she's going to have. Only after you've done that will she be able to reframe her expectations of you when she opens your letter so that she can actually see what you've written. Until then what you write and what she reads will not have a lot in common. The only way to accomplish that is by continuing the no contact and replying to her a respectful and friendly way, as you've done. Restrained. It's the long road, but unfortunately it's the only road.

If you doubt that, take a look at a few threads on Newcomers where the poster shares correspondence with the spouse. There are OFTEN miscommunications on those threads that have entirely to do with expectations and a failure in contingent communications. Those of use who aren't in the marriage see them quite clearly, but it may take a couple of days of review from the vets to get the poster to reframe what they're reading. You're in that place.

Sorry this was rambly but I hope it helps.

Last edited by Maybell; 08/22/14 01:38 AM.

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It does help, thank you.


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No update here. Just holding tight. Depressed and lonely. Trying to spend time with friends. Trying NOT to look at her FB or photos of us. Trying to GAL, but mainly mired in depression.

I've lost my shine.


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Well, that happens. My IC says when you're in that place, examine where in your body you're feeling it, and then start naming precisely what those feelings are made of. As you do, you'll feel them unwinding and loosening out of your body. When you've gotten through them all you will feel lighter.

To that, I would add, write them down as you name them and then pick one or two that you can do something about, and then go do it. That will help a lot.

I'm glad you're back. I could see you've had a lot to process. You will get your shine back. It's not gone forever. You're a young guy with a lot left. Remember that this too shall pass.


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DB,

Checking in on you...please tell us what's happening with you?

I do hope you didn't send the letter to Julia while this site was down for maintenance.

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I cannot tell a lie. I did send a letter. This one:
-----------------------
Dear Julia,

I’m writing to thank you again for the kind and vulnerable message you sent on my birthday. It really made my day. I also thought it deserved a more thoughtful response, even a few weeks later.

I hope you know I remain deeply sorry for hurting you -- I think about it every day. I’m also sorry for not respecting your requests for space in the months after the breakup, for my glib attempts to minimize what happened, and for a laundry list of other things I did over the course of our relationship that caused you pain and insecurity. You did absolutely nothing to cause or deserve any of this. Nothing.

Working with my therapist and my sponsor, I’ve come to understand just how much pain my actions have caused you. I know that there is no excuse for my cheating. All I can say is how sorry I am, and that I am doing the work to fix myself and make sure this never happens again.

Please know that I love you and want nothing but the best for you. My only wish right now is for you to be able to heal and be happy again. If someday you’d like to revisit this conversation, discuss my progress with my therapist, or if I can simply make amends to you in person, please let me know. In the meantime, I wish you love, health, and happiness.

Always,
Me

Last edited by DBinSF; 08/27/14 08:10 PM.

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Figures.

And did she reply?


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I spoke with a number of local women who know her and they said the timing was right. She'd never gotten a real apology from me. Now I just have to let go of the result.


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I just sent it an hour ago, actually.


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I've also started talking my therapist about the Madonna/Whore complex. Seems very applicable to my situation. Not sure what the path to recovery from that looks like.


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You're way over-analyzing things again.

You didn't thinks she was the one for you because of the sex. You cheated on her. She left you because of that. End of story.


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DB,

Okay...the letter has already been sent out. You cannot unring the bell.

Put the focus back on you. Hope you will continue working on your issues with the IC. Keep going!

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Thanks, Bond and Wonka. I was worried about excommunication here for sending the letter, but my gut told me it was the right thing to do.

And I'm continuing to work on me. Twice a week therapy, three or four 12-step meetings a week, and ZERO distracting behavior -- aside from these forums, that is.

DB


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DB,

Relax. We're not the Lord High Executioners of DB. Oh my! No, no...nooooo.

Please be prepared for the possibility that Julia may not respond to your letter. Either way...it should not detract you from your own path of working on yourself and facing your issues head-on.


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I'm fully anticipating that she won't. It may in fact be the nail in the coffin. Although, I really think part of her wonders what it would be like to be with a healthy me. So, I'm going to keep my head down and get healthy.

I came up with a perfect analogy today:

Throughout my life, every time I've felt a flare up of low self-confidence or some other drama, I've run around trying to put the fire out with travel, parties, women, shopping, cross-country moves, or some other form of distraction, excitement or escape. This time, I'm just throwing extra wood on the fire. No more distractions. Just more fire. Burn it down!! And maybe, just maybe, something beautiful will come out of the ashes.

DB


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When you say you felt in your gut you should send the letter, isn't that the same as you being led by your emotions?

With the programs and therapy you receive, what have you learned about how to control an addictive/compulsive disorder?

I read your post about your confusion over parts of the DR book. I think you need to hear very precise instructions for your individual case. Blanket advice for the general population or in a group setting confuses a lot of people b/c they aren't able to differenciate or compartmentalize. It must be difficult for you in some of your group programs.

Frankly, I don't think you should listen to your "gut", b/c of you are compulsive......especially in relationships. You give way to whatever urge you feel at that moment. Feeding that urge has had bad results for you.

I don't think you can write a letter to Julia and put it away. The idea was to vent some of those urges to tell her one more time how sorry you are. Writing it down on paper is therapeutic for some people, but i don't think it will help you. The compulsion to mail it becomes too strong. And you know when you do it that it goes against the advice you were given, so almost immediately you feel the compulsion to confess your actions.

When you give over to one urge, then another follows it. As you described trying to put out fires. You think you are smothering one fire (to write a letter) but once it is written, the another fire begins (to mail the letter), then you smother that fire by sending the letter and another fire begins (tell the board what you did).

How are you able to make good decisions? How are you able to hold down a job? You feed your senses....... And that is what drives you to destruction.

frown


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Hi Sandi,

You're right, I can be impulsive/compulsive. I've learned to put a stop to all compulsive behavior around sex, shopping, going out, travel, porn, etc. In fact, the only think I'm compulsive about now is my Ex.

I.
CAN'T.
STOP.
THINKING.
ABOUT.
HER.

It takes the joy out of every moment. So, I fight back. And I send an apology letter when you all say I shouldn't. And I write even more elaborate and detailed letters to her that I never send -- letters telling her overcoming this issue is how we will grow as people and as a couple. Etc etc...

I go to therapy, I go to 12 step. I try to help people with their problems as a way of getting out of my head and healing from mine. But my depression around pushing my Ex away is only getting worse, not better.

DB


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In The Power of Habit there is a suggestion for how to alter a pattern to a healthier one. The author used to go down to the cafeteria for a cookie every afternoon at 3:00. He wanted to break the habit so he tried some experiments.

He tried to see what would happen if he went and got the cookie at a different time. He discovered he didn't the cookie at any time other than 3:00.

So then he tried bringing a cookie to the office and eating it at 3:00. But he didn't want the cookie, he wanted to go to the cafeteria.

So then he tried going to the cafeteria at 3:00 and getting a tea instead. He found he was OK with not getting the cookie when he did that.

So then he tried going to the cafeteria at 3:00 and getting nothing.

That was how he discovered that the need he was satisfying with his cookie habit was the need to get up and stretch his legs and talk to other people at a certain point in his day.

Once he realized that, he turned the habit into a walk around the outside of the building with a colleague or two. He lost 15 pounds that way, if memory serves.

And he still got his needs met.

So watch what your brain is doing when you think about your ex, or when you write to your ex. See if you can turn that habit into something healthier, a step at a time.


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Thanks, Maybell. I recall that story well. And I appreciate your thoughtful message. You're right, this is an OLD habit. Frankly, I haven't been without a woman or not been in hot pursuit of a woman since I was like 8 years old. Maybe younger. Yes, Mommy issues. smile I speak to my therapist and my 12 step sponsor about this stuff too.

The crazy thing is how much like a physical addiction this is. I am without my fix, so in doing anything I can to "get a hit." I know it intellectually, but I can't make the leap yet emotionally.

I really do appreciate your kindness and soft hand. I was afraid I'd just get a snack down after that last post.

Onward...


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Originally Posted By: DBinSF

The crazy thing is how much like a physical addiction this is. I am without my fix, so in doing anything I can to "get a hit." I know it intellectually, but I can't make the leap yet emotionally.



This is hugely insightful, DB! I think one of the hardest things we all struggle with on this forum is patience. There's all this time we don't have control over and we're supposed to do what with it? Make ourselves better? One of the things we have to remind ourselves, DB, is to have patience with ourselves. Some of this stuff we have to push through and seek out but some of the other changes should happen organically. You realizing that you're having a hard time emotionally detaching from your "fix" is a GREAT thing to realize!

Really. Really great!

Let that permeate for a bit because it's profound!

On a separate note, I wonder what kind of awesome guy you are when you're not in hot pursuit of a woman. You're in the process of finding THAT guy and I bet he's super fascinating for YOU to get to know.


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Thanks, Ss06. Funny, I am a great guy. I've just put an INORDINATE amount of energy into getting affirmation from women for 90% of my life -- as in since kindergarten! It's insane to look at my insanity!

At this point, I'm at 3.5 months without as much as a holding hands with a woman. It's the longest I've gone without affection since a "dry spell" in college. It's liberating and maddening. And I'm still wasting hours a day obsessing.

I get excited thinking about all I could do and accomplish if I wasn't wasting time trying to fix my relationship. My "monastic" life is both inspiring and scary. I'm ready to be done, to be a Dad, to have a house and a bustling career. But I realize these same patterns have been cropping up my entire life.

There's no moving forward until I've moved through these issues. And as you said, patience is the hardest part. I want to be better NOW.


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Hi all,

Just saying Hi. No news on the home front. Just trying to move on at this point. As painful as that is...

DB


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DB, sometimes it gets harder before it gets easier.

Google "how to heal a broken heart" and use the Psych Central list. It helps. smile

Glad to see you touching base.


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Have you had any therapist to give you "how to" steps in over coming these problems, or do they just listen while you talk? Have they ever told you why you have these issues?


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Yes, I understand intellectually why I have these "issues" but moving from intellectual understanding to emotional understanding is not a simple process for me.


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Believe me, we all know that.


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DB,

Hope you're working with your IC on the "emotional understanding" of your issues. That requires you to dig really, really deep and being totally transparent with your IC so s/he can work in partnership with you in dismantling those patterns and establish new, healthy ones.

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Thanks, Wonk. I sure am. I'm armed to the hilt with two ICs, two 12 step sponsors, and 5-8 hours a week of meetings and sessions. I'm taking this all very seriously.


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From Julia: "Please do not drop letters off at my house. I don't think you understand how much I hate you."

So, there you have it. Case closed.


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Did you drop off a letter at her house?
If you did, I must have missed the part where you mentioned it here.


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I don't get it. Did you send letters to her?


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Two weeks ago. The apology letter you saw. You said, "figures. Did she respond?"


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So, did you mail it or actually physically drop it off?

Her response comes across as you actually dropped it off in person....

When you told us you "sent" the letter, it came across as it was mailed.

I guess it really doesn't matter either way because her answer is still the same. I just wanted to get clarity.


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She responded just now? Kind of long for her to respond.

"I was worried about excommunication here for sending the letter, but my gut told me it was the right thing to do. "

This is what happens when you follow your "gut".


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I'm sorry you didn't get the response you were hoping for. Are you going to put your focus back where it belongs now, or do you have another sideshow up your sleeve?

What are you doing to GAL that is just plain old flat out fun?


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dude, you were on the right path. What happened?!


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DF,

This is a very hard lesson when you to learn when you go against the advice offered to you. Will you truly listen to us going forward...willya?

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Ugh. It turned into a day long barrage of mixed emotions. Hate followed by Messages of remorse wishing she had met me when I was healthier, followed by questions as to how I've changed in the last four months followed by more hate and then more remorse and then finally just exhaustion and apathy.

It's really, really strange to see her so off-balance. She's never been one to spew hateful things. It makes me really sad to know how much she is hurting.

Last edited by DBinSF; 09/14/14 05:27 AM.

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Strangely, seeing her SO off kilter gives me room to take some space. They say you get to know people when the chips are down. I'm investing 5-10 hours a week in therapy and 12-step. I send love and kindness to her in my prayers and mediation. She's waking up wishing I was dead and telling me she HATES me when she communicates with me. I understand she's hurt more than I can comprehend, but HATE is a strong word. It's ugly. It's not who or how I want to be.


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You didn't answer the question. WHEN did she send you that message?


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She sent me that message on Friday morning.


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Originally Posted By: DBinSF
I understand she's hurt more than I can comprehend, but HATE is a strong word. It's ugly. It's not who or how I want to be.



It IS a strong word but she's an intelligent woman and that is the word she has chosen. Doesn't that mean something to you? You have ignored her requests because you thought your way was better.

Now you're saying Hate is a strong word but guess what. She hates you with all the strength of that word. Why? Partially because you have not given her what she has clearly asked for which, incidentally, coincides with the advice you've been given by SO MANY PEOPLE yet you still do what you want.

You're still here though so I can't help but wonder if you are:

1. glutton for punishment
2. unintelligent
3. a narcissist
4. actually think this is where you're supposed to be but think you should write a new version of DB entitled, "if your situation looks unique, it must be - 8 ways to ignore MWD despite the evidence".

Your tenacity to plow through and do what you want, follow your "instincts" or whatever other cover-term you have for it, is frightening.

I'm theorizing you have control issues. BIG TIME. Am I wrong?



So far your journey to health has been for others, so you can "earn" them back. You're on the wrong path.

This journey is for YOU and you alone.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,500
M
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M
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,500
I can understand why you'd be surprised she said hate so strongly. When I or others try to show you the depth of the hurt you caused you get angry and call it shaming. Then you're surprised she could say she hates you.

Look at your signature again. Look at how much of her relationship with you you spent cheating. How could you possibly be surprised she'd say she hates you?


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
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