WAWs or Wayward M: How to SHOW change is afoot?

[DBinSF]

Wonka,

Thanks for the timeline! I went back to my original thread and dug up your apology note to Mrs. Wonka:

Dear Ms. Wonka,

Before I begin this message, I do want to tell you that I enjoyed your birthday card. It was a very thoughtful gesture and I really do appreciate it. Also our fun-filled text exchanges are so positive and plain fun!

First of all, I want you to know that I come to you with respectful intentions and struggled with finding the right balance in reaching out to you while respecting your space and life.

I owe you an apology and do want to make sincere amends for the pain I have caused you in the last year or two of our relationship. Both of us have experienced tremendous pain, sorrow, and heartbreak as we parted ways. Please let me know how I can make amends with you. I am open to ideas and feedback. As you may agree, I would like for both of us to heal in meaningful ways. Please know that I am uncertain how to go about this and may make a few mistakes along the way.

So I thought I'd take the first step in reaching out to you. It is my hope that you are receptive to allowing the healing process begin anew between us and grant us the space to do so at our own pace in a mutually supportive way.

I am here if you wish to participate in this healing process.

Take care and be well.

Wonka

What is the thinking behind putting the amends back on her? "Please let me know how I can make amends with you. I am open to ideas and feedback." My instinct is to make amends for specific things and propose a path forward (or propose to just let it go). How does DBing differ from that instinct of mine?

Thanks,
Edward

[Wonka]

DB,

You ask good questions here.

What is the thinking behind putting the amends back on her? "Please let me know how I can make amends with you. I am open to ideas and feedback." My instinct is to make amends for specific things and propose a path forward (or propose to just let it go). How does DBing differ from that instinct of mine?

I think you have it all wrong. I am not putting the amends "back on her"...it is ME requesting how to do so and in what ways I can achieve it for I've caused her a great deal of pain through my crazy MLC chit.

Please note that I NEVER, NEVER assumed knowing exactly what amends to make to Ms. Wonka. This is why I was respectful in my approach to Ms. Wonka. Maybe my notion of making amends isn't exactly what Ms. Wonka is looking for...hence my inquiry.

It is UP TO THE INJURED PARTY to outline what is needed to make amends that will ease some of their pain and reassured that the same actions will not happen again (news flash...it will never go away completely). It is not up to us to determine that. To do so is arrogant and preposterous!

You wrote:

My instinct is to make amends for specific things and propose a path forward (or propose to just let it go)

^^ that alone is a HUGE problem. It is all about YOU and what YOU want. That is a very dangerous path to go down on, buddy. Have you ever stopped to think about what Julia's POV? Doesn't she have any say on any of this at all?? She has her own opinions, thoughts, and feelings as well. Don't be too quick to dismiss her at all.

That is what I did for a long time before I sat down and composed the letter to Ms. Wonka. First and foremost, I worked hard on my chit FIRST. Then I was at a place of strength and was able to put ME aside completely. The focus was squarely on Ms. Wonka and how I can MAKE her feel heard by asking what it would take from me to make sincere amends.

See the difference?

You want to let it go because......

I think I know the answer.

Because you are wallowing in guilt and feeling pain. You just want it all go go away NOW by penning some missive to Julia so it all be done and over with. Then you'll sit all puffed up in false satisfaction that you've ticked that off on your checklist.

Her pain is 100x yours. If you cannot handle working through your own pain, then you will not have the patience to DB successfully. Then you're doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over with other women.

Do you want that?

If not, then pay attention to advice and wisdom passed on here from those of us who have done the hard work and reaped the rewards from it.

[Maybell]

"Don't believe anything they say" refers to the BETRAYER.

Do I need to repeat that one too?

You don't have lines of communication open at the moment but if she contacted you before she could contact you again. So you work to be a great, generous, UNSELFISH man in preparation for the time when she might contact you again. Yes, even if you're waiting in perpetuity. That's the reason for so much of the other feedback you've gotten here.

130 days of "sexual sobriety" is not convincing to a woman who experienced 600 days of betrayal.

Getting rid of doubtful friends is unimpressive. You fooled her, you could fool integrous males too.

Meditation, therapy, and gratitude journaling as a basis for safety? Really? You need to learn how a healthy person lives before you say something like that.

What you said about entrusting her kids to you... That just made me laugh. Not sufficient. You don't know what you're talking about if you think participating in Alateen has any relationship to being In the parenting trenches for 18+ years. You can't be committed enough to her to go 100 days without contacting her because that's what SHE needs. Why should she think you could make it through a pregnancy? Or fertility issues? Or the newborn period? Let's not even discuss potty-training, special needs, bullying, puberty, etc.

Will you cheat on her when she's post-partum, feeling unattractive and worn out and doesn't want to be touched? Does she deserve to worry that you will?

NO PURSUIT. Of any kind. Period.

You may whine that I'm being harsh. I am not. I'm being frank. I want you to be better because the world needs to be full of better people. What kind of man do you want to be?

[Wonka]

DB,

I want to add that you might notice that I didn't make it all about me or all how wonderful Ms. Wonka is. That letter had very short paragraphs that got right to the heart of the issue. Nothing about working on me, improving me, or blah blah blah. Cut out the white noise and focused on the main issue: making sincere amends.

I did not try to explain or defend my actions nor did I go into specifics. The bottom line and the plain truth is that I wounded Ms. Wonka deeply. Why do you want to pick at her scabs with specifics?!

[sandi2]

Ok, got it. So you still haven't let it go, apparently. You want a formula and everyone who posted has told you the only thing that has a chance in hades of working. You just won't accept that NC means NC! Detaching, dropping the rope, going dark........all those are not to do for a few days, weeks, or even months.....just to return in pursuing her. It doesn't change......ever, unless or until she goes to you and wants to revive the relationship. You say none of it worked b/c you tried it. The point is not to "try" it out. In your case, you have to live it. I know you don't want to accept it and you want to see something she said as some sign she may be warming to you.....but it's just not. You want to believe she still loves you. I only know she made a decision to end it, based on something more. So now, you need to move on. If she ever changes her mind, she will contact you.

You want to hear from more men and specifically those who have been in the exact stitch as you. I don't know that there are any here who have been in that exact stitch. Maybe there has been in the past, however, I doubt they stayed behind, IDK.

You have had several women, as well as men, to tell you to leave her alone. Stop pursuing. If you cannot do that ONE thing we have all told you.......why do you keep expecting more? We ARE telling you what works.

You are wanting those who had A's to tell what we did to mend the MR and show our S we are sincerly working in the R. What step we took to prove ourselves, make the R better, etc., etc. (Sorry, can't remember you exact wording). Here's the thing, after the A ends and the wayward person gets their act together......it really is up to the faithful S if they want to continue the M or not. The faithful S has a choice to give the wayward S another chance or not. Although the majority of people here on the board are or were a LBS who wanted to reconcile the M.........everyone doesn't feel that way. I doubt you find LBS here who do not want to R their M, b/c this isn't the place for them. Know what I mean?

If the faithful S makes it clear to the wayward S they are done.....and divorces them....that's it! The wayward S has to accept the decision of the faithful S, even if wayward is so sorrowful over the A and would do ANYTHING to make it up to the faithful one. (sound familiar?) To be blunt, your finance divorced you! For her, it is over. She is done. There is no more relationship. We cannot make another person love & want us back. Sorry, we just can't.

Here is all you can do. Leave her completely alone. No type of contact......ever. Learn from the painful experiences you have had in your relationships. Get therapy, take classes that have been recommended. Work on yourself to be a better, stronger, individual who is not co-dependent on relationships. Learn how to let go of what you cannot have....or have been denied. Move forward in your life. Find how to be happy apart from a relationship with some person.

There is no magic. Hate to break it to you, but that's the real world.

I won't bother you again. I wish you well.

[DBinSF]

I'd never whine about you, Maybell. You're a sweetheart, and you're always very kind in your tough love. It's that bully Wonka I whine about. LOL.

[DBinSF]

Thanks, Sandi2. I appreciate the thoughtful explanation.

I think all of this is hard to me to accept because I WORK in the persuasion industry. My job is to get people to feel and think things, buy products, & love people (politicians). I do manipulation for a living. So, someone telling me I can't MAKE someone feel something simply doesn't ring true.

But I understand that this is an different situation. I'm not able to do polling and run market tests. It's me and Mrs. And she's had enough of my sh!t.

I think the REAL issue for me is I'm FREAKING OUT and all my control stuff is coming up. I feel like a little animal that's sliding down a greased funnel, and I'm just doing anything I can to hold on to the side, but there's nothing to hold on to, and it's getting tighter and tighter and...

And then it's so tight...I can't breathe. Know what I mean?

Letting go is REALLY hard for us ACOA/Codependent/Marketing professionals.

SOOOOO.... when I feel that way (knowing I SHOULD let go, but knowing I CAN'T just yet), I come on here and try to look for SOME kind of answer. Some hint, some clue, some new marketing message, some relief from the pain of admitting it's really over since I can't do a DARN thing to alleviate her pain at this point.

-db

[MrBond]

"DB Continuing: I also read on another thread the idea of "Don't believe anything they say"

That's in the book. The fact that you took it as something you read on a thread leads me to believe that you never read the books. Did you? You said you did it in your first situation, but it doesn't seem like you got it.

"So... why are the crazy belligerence towards me for wanting to offer SOME indication to my Ex about how things could get better? Or for not totally believing her when she says she doesn't want to have anything to do with me? "

Because you are missing the whole point of what everyone is telling you. All of that is about YOU and what YOU want. You've only been at this for a couple of months. You haven't changed. Period.

If you did, you wouldn't have created a letter that was so self-centered. Or to put it another way... you put your d*ck in another woman for one and a half years. Not a one night stand, but YEARS. And now you want to have her happily put it in her. You're right. She should be worshipping how much you changed.

I'll tell you what. Go ahead and send the letter without all of the edits that people have recommended you make. Send it as is. I mean, you say that you HAVE to tell her right? After all, what we tell you are just suggestions. You are the one who has to ultimately pull the trigger.

As you said, you have "nothing" to lose so go ahead and send it. I'm sure she'll appreciate it how much you've sacrificed and changed in two months. And I'm being totally sincere. You have to know one way or another, right or it'll "kill" you since you can't take the pain. I'm sure she's totally happy and not in pain from what happened to her.

Go ahead.

[sandi2]

Well I am eating my words that I wouldn't bother you again. I wanted to respond to this:

I think the REAL issue for me is I'm FREAKING OUT and all my control stuff is coming up. I feel like a little animal that's sliding down a greased funnel, and I'm just doing anything I can to hold on to the side, but there's nothing to hold on to, and it's getting tighter and tighter and...

And then it's so tight...I can't breathe. Know what I mean?

The real issue is IN you. It was there in your other relationships and before you met your ex-finance. And you will be this way with the next woman/relationship. You have to get mentally healthy before entering any relationship so this doesn't continue to play out.

Please hear what I am telling you. The answer is NOT your ex-finance. It is not getting her back. B/c it would not take care of the problem inside of you. You are seeing the solution to your problem is simply reconciling with her. That is not the solution for YOUR problem. Your problem goes much deeper. .

You need to see this is a cheese-less tunel and stop trying to dig further. Stop focusing on her. Focus on you and finding a therapist who will actually give you some solutions to help.

Letting go is REALLY hard for us ACOA/Codependent/Marketing professionals.

SOOOOO.... when I feel that way (knowing I SHOULD let go, but knowing I CAN'T just yet), I come on here and try to look for SOME kind of answer. Some hint, some clue, some new marketing message, some relief from the pain of admitting it's really over since I can't do a DARN thing to alleviate her pain at this point.

Are you one of those salesman who keep pressuring the customer, not taking no for an answer......and they buy what you are selling just to get rid of you and make you STFU? If so, some of the stuff you've told us in the past kind of makes sense. Just based on the quote above, it sounds as if your personal life and business techniques have blurred together. You are persistent with her b/c that's how you've been trained at work. Don't take no, and just find a different approach......marketing angle to make your sale. In this case, you are trying to sell "you".

There are some people out there who really get turned off in a big way when it comes to marketing techniques with it's pretty packing, presentations, and all the relentless pressure.......I'm sure you are familiar with that sort of thing. And you know, some folks may cave under enough pressure and buy into whatever product you're pushing......but they don't stick with it. .

It's as if you are focused on making a sale. What technique can you try to get her to buy into it? I believe, based on things you have said here and in other threads, it's some psychological glitch you have. It's as if she was this huge client that you let slip through your fingers and you're desperately trying to retrieve that account you lost.

Don't use marketing techniques on her, okay? Leave it alone. Find help for yourself. Seriously.

[DBinSF]

Thanks, Sandi2. I know you're right. I'm basically an Alcoholic going though withdrawal and cravings. The challenge is, an Alcoholic can live an amazing life never touching a drink again. But none of us can go through life without love or sex or relationships. I need to get clean first, and then rebuild a healthy relationship with love and sex. I know that intellectually.

I'm sorry to everyone for being so shrill and pained in the last few days. I went through an especially difficult period this weekend that was exacerbated by a flu/fever and some overall feelings of desperation.

The interesting development today is that she actually wrote to me this morning asking about our gym membership, and if I had canceled her membership. The funny thing is the gym is next to her office and she could just stop next door and see if her key pass still worked or just ask them if it's been canceled. BUT, she chose to use it as an opportunity to ping me.

Maybe I'm not the only one thinking about the other?

-DB