Toots, couldn't agree more with respect to MC. That's why we aren't doing it currently. It's hard, but with the OM in the picture, there isn't much chance or purpose. We have done some family counselling to get our schedule etc set up. I have made it clear that I am open to MC if the OM is out of the picture and we are working on our R.
Uppercu, the arguments that occur typically revolve around scheduling and her ability to get away and visit OM. She also gets very upset if she feels like she is being blamed. For example, I let my co-coach for my S8's hockey team know that we are S, and it's having an affect on my S8. I also told the teachers at the kids school, to let me know if they notice anything with my children. I told her this to bring her up to speed as to when I had told them, I had first asked her if she was comfortable with this , which she was, but she still flipped out saying the S has no effect on the kids. It seems she wants to remain a pretend family, while she maintains an A. Of course, I'm not interested in that charade.
That being said, we did have a meeting to determine our assets with her cousin acting as a support for her. It was really straightforward and simple, but when the dust settled, my W was crying, and asked "how much do I get paid for the physical abuse and torture that I endured from birthing and nurturing three big babies that destroyed my body from that piece of sh@& sitting right there". And pointed at me. My kids were in another room, I asked her not to verbalize those thoughts around the kids. She went into the bathroom, crying, and I left. Typical pattern. It makes me realize how dysmorphic her body perception is, and really how unhealthy her mind is. It made me sad for her, and sad for my kids. I have in the past validated the changes her body underwent from childbirth. It's a traumatic and incredible body changing experience that I can only imagine. During our M, I was always supportive of my W, so much so that in a letter to me she said she hated me because I loved her no matter how she looked, and if I loved her and she hated herself, she loathed me for loving something she hated. It makes me feel like I can't do any right sometimes.
Although she doesn't see it now, someday she may come to appreciate that you are fighting hard to protect your family and children. I know you know that. Even if she doesn't come around, at least you know what you need to do and you're doing the right thing. Also, even through the affair brain, I think a wayward spouse KNOWS what is right. They're just suppressing it right now.
She SHOULD feel guilt and blame, not that you should be the one to push that on her, but those feelings are very really consequences of acts that lead to the destruction of a marriage and family.
What if you asked her for her input on how she thinks you and her should protect and monitor the effects of the S on your children? Maybe try: "I've never been through this either so I don't know how the changes to our R will impact the kids. I want to build our children up, and I know that should never come at the cost of hurting you. How do you think we should communicate with teachers/coaches/etc who can help us to build our children up?"
My W is also very interested in what I say to others. I have taken the same approach to be open and honest about it. Since I know she will find out everything eventually, I am careful to only build her up when discussing her actions and our R with others. It is a fine line to dance, and it leaves me with little to say most of the time, but I think you can build a person up while disagreeing with their current actions and thinking. I have to constantly remind myself who my W was days before the A. She was a great friend and partner, she just messed up and slipped into the mud. She's wallowing in it now, but somewhere deep inside she is the same person I fell in love with.
Happy Halloween to you too!
UpperCut Me: 28 W: 25 Married: 4 yrs Together: 7 yrs Dday: 9/14 (W ends affair & comes home) S: 12/14 (W restarted affair 1/15; moved near OM 2/15) No kids
"My W is also very interested in what I say to others. I have taken the same approach to be open and honest about it. Since I know she will find out everything eventually, I am careful to only build her up when discussing her actions and our R with others. It is a fine line to dance, and it leaves me with little to say most of the time, but I think you can build a person up while disagreeing with their current actions and thinking. I have to constantly remind myself who my W was days before the A. She was a great friend and partner, she just messed up and slipped into the mud. She's wallowing in it now, but somewhere deep inside she is the same person I fell in love with. "
Love this!^^^
Me 47 - W 35 M 9 - T 10 2 Daughters - 7 & 9 Discovery of EA- 8/4/14 S - 8/5/15 D mentioned - 9/11/14 R & Piecing - 3/17/15 Regard one another as more important than yourselves. - Philippians 2:3
This is an interesting discussion which makes me wonder if it is really our job to build up our spouses' low-esteem? How much do we feel "obligated" to carry that cross in the M? How healthy is that in a partnership that is supposed to have two people as two equal partners?
I guess the crux of this matter is how much baggage are we willing to tolerate from our partners. Let's face it: we ALL have baggage. It is all on how much we can put up with in a partner. Granted, we are not seeking a perfect 10 woman as in Bo Derek...c'mon!
Do you see where I am going with this thought process?
Dev, I cannot imagine being married to your W right now. It will just sap my energy and leave me drained. Who is looking out for number #1?? You. That's right.
Sorry your here and going through this. It's a tough stitch. I'm going to do a reflective post I think in a few days, with what I have learned so far, and how I would have handled some things differently. Glad your learning from my stitch, and good luck with yours!
With respect to the MC, it seems my W uses it for validation. She's really feeling alone, and feels validated by the MC, although she does call her out on some issues. I'm really only open to it if there is no OM involved. I spent too much money and wasted my time when we did MC with the OM still in the picture.
Lately, I've been noticing that my W is extremely manipulative. She has been sending messages about one of my D6 friend's mom that she thinks likes me. Degrading her and being very accusatory. Also saying it's over, she's done, can't take it, she's been destroyed. As well as threatening suicide.
Today, she got really mad that I couldn't help her in the AM with the kids, as I'm seeing my dentist. She said it was over (yes, it's a favorite) and she could never rely on me again. I slipped up and responded that I could never trust her again, so we are all good.....not a smart thing to say at the time. Anyways, she blocked me, left me a note asking for her rings back, and had her Sister send me a text telling me to leave her alone essentially. Ironic and sad to me. I don't initiate any contact, and don't always respond.
Wonka, I agree with you. It's not on me to create esteem for my wife. I tried that for years. My W needs to get to a place where her self esteem is derived from inside. Until she does that, I don't see anything changing. I truly can't control her, and especially how she feels. I feel sorry for her, but I'm pretty much in a place where I'm ready to move on. No matter what, I will be ok. Perhaps not happy with what has occurred, but thankful for the person that I have developed into after going though this. The journey of self development continues.
I slipped up and responded that I could never trust her again, so we are all good.....not a smart thing to say at the time.
Agreed, not a smart thing to say. And not necessarily true either. Perhaps more accurate would have been to say, "I'm having great difficulty trusting you at this time, but if we were to work on the trust issue it would be good to see our mutual trust increase to a point where it was in the past."
Yeah, I know it would still have fallen on deaf ears at this point.
My WAW actually once called our MC who had to transmit the message to me not to contact my W. That sentiment didn't last long and she was contacting me again within a day.
Don't give up hope. True, the days are dark and the night may be long. When the sun rises again on your new day, no one knows how the two of you will see each other. Hopefully some civil discourse in the interim can pave the way to less contentious interchanges: you two have a bad habit of strife - she jabs, you respond. Try figuring out a way to avoid that cheeseless tunnel. Maybe there's a way to engage her that she doesn't expect.
Maybe when she says it's over, agree with her. Yes it is over. The marriage you had is over. Face it. The only way through this is to build a new marriage. And that starts from scratch.
Whether you're willing or interested to start from scratch with her is another thing. But as you say: keep the dream alive.
I too have reached a point recently where I'm questioning whether to pack it in or not. But I think my sitch is still too fluid for me to make a call like that. It's been almost a year since my W moved out and over a year since we've ML (except for a couple of errant sexual episodes which don't in my mind qualify as ML.
Still, Dev. Hang in there. You've done yourself proud.
Last edited by PeterV2; 11/05/1412:37 AM.
M: 59 W: 53 M: 9 yrs T: 14 yrs No kids together but D30(hers), S27, S24, D21(all 3 mine) W moved out 11/18/2013 D-Day 12/14/2013 W moved back home 12/1/2014
Always appreciate your insight. I agree, I'm pretty close to making a similar decision to you. It's hard though, but I'm really seeing my options. Bottom like for me, the OM is still present. Everything stops at that, not because he's the main problem, but more because his prescence prevents successful R MC.
As a follow up to her anger yesterday, I noticed when I went to put on my socks today, the drawer was filled with things that meant things to me, like cards from her for anniversaries, her wedding tiara, and she put info on grieving together after a miscarriage and some other things in the drawer. She destroyed them all after she ransacked my room while I was at MC. The tiara was bent and crumpled, cards she gave me shredded, and she was clearly angry.
It was sad for me to see, especially the miscarriage information. I wish that we had done counselling after that. It's tough to go through, but I think it definitely was a big factor in our M demise. It occurred in October of 2012.
So my choices are I change the locks to prevent this kind of behavior, or I contact my lawyer, which I have already done to determine legally what I can do, and start my divorce proceedings.
So I never like to act without thinking, or rashly, and I realize it's important to acknowledge what she has done. I returned her rings as she had requested. No point on fighting that as it is the law where I am. I realize there is a lot of pain in everything she shredded and put in the drawer. Each of the items in there represented some things she really resented about our M. So this is a good time for validation, but I wrestle with which tact to use.
Fortunately, I have time because I'm currently blocked. I need to think.
Wow, Dev. She's angry. I know exact how you feel. My W is raging angry at me almost all the time, although there are times when she buries it and is nice. But it doesn't take much to put her off on a rage again. I don't deal with anger well. A couple of days ago when she was yelling at me I calmly said her voice was raised and I don't want to be spoken at with a raised voice. It didn't really help at the time but later she left me a voice mail apologizing for yelling at me. So I think I need to define my boundaries regarding being yelled at. Lee Baucom, from Save the Marriage has a good chapter in his ebook about Boundaries.
Tonight when she told me again how angry she was at me I replied by saying it must be hard to be angry like that all the time. She agreed and said it's exhausting. And then she softened a little. Validation. My usual tact would be to defend myself. That doesn't work - only makes her angrier. Maybe try that line on your W.
Yeah the anger and resentment seem to be a constant theme in this worldview. It seems the only way to successfully deal with it is to commiserate, to empathize - wow, that must be hard to be angry / resentful all the time. Never dismiss her anger, or argue the causes - the emotion is real and needs to be addressed.
I've heard that anger is a secondary emotion - the primary emotion is fear or pain. Maybe we should think of ways to address the fear (of abandonment/loss of love/etc.) and the pain (of not being heard/appreciated/etc.) Any ideas? Anyone?
M: 59 W: 53 M: 9 yrs T: 14 yrs No kids together but D30(hers), S27, S24, D21(all 3 mine) W moved out 11/18/2013 D-Day 12/14/2013 W moved back home 12/1/2014
M: 59 W: 53 M: 9 yrs T: 14 yrs No kids together but D30(hers), S27, S24, D21(all 3 mine) W moved out 11/18/2013 D-Day 12/14/2013 W moved back home 12/1/2014
