Is DB Worth It? Part 5

[Maybell]

First off, you don't know that he thinks so little of you. You don't actually know WHAT he's thinking because you haven't gotten an update recently. So don't assume that what you think he thinks is what he thinks.

With regards to the spinning... I got a huge knot in my stomach today because the bank balance looked different than what I expected. H didn't respond promptly when I texted him. It was all I could do not to panic. When he did respond, he spent 8 text messages explaining what I was seeing and checking in to see why I was concerned. So I think sometimes this business stuff hits us in the chinks in our armor. And, understandably, we have trust issues. I mean, we've been abandoned by the people we expected to care for us for the rest of our lives. Childcare is a huge chink in your armor. So give yourself a break for having an emotional response to an emotional topic.

While I was making lunch for my kids today I imagined H sitting in the IC office saying "It's like she doesn't trust me!" and IC saying calmly, "Why do you think that might be?" It made me feel better to know that that huge emotional response was ALSO rational.

So maybe a way to give yourself a crutch for getting through this meeting in a businesslike fashion so he can see your changes would be to write him a letter screaming all the stuff you wish you could say to his face, and then putting it somewhere near you, as though you were going to give it to him. Except then don't. You'll know that stuff has all been expressed and COULD be delivered but that you are exercising your changes by keeping it to yourself.

I also have been known to write notes of encouragement to myself on my wrists and hands so I can refer to them in weak moments. D11 gave me a worry stone with the word "Wisdom" printed on it. I think she meant me to use it for her, but it's all purpose. When you're out with your little girl pick out a pretty stone together and tell her you want to keep it to remind you of her when you're not together. You're doing a lot of this for her, right?

I agree that the minutiae should be dealt with in the agreement. He has a track record and so do you and you have a lot of years ahead of you both in this endeavor. I would stick to your guns and say that you'd prefer to have everything spelt out to keep the co-parenting relationship cooperative and prevent misunderstandings. This is a business transaction, you don't have an obligation to bend further than is in your interest.

You are going to be great, Claire. Really. Keep your eye on the prize. You'll be great.

keep us posted!!

[claire7]

When if ever can I ask him what he thinks?! If he said something like, I'm not sure. .. in the bottom of my heart I don't want this to happen but I still have trouble seeing a way forward" I am willing to be patient. But if I'm just sitting around waiting for him to say he's ready for D, then wtf am I doing?

Do I have a right to ask for access to all checking and CC accounts? Do I wait for mediator for that? If he is spending marital money on dating, do I have rights wrt that?

I guess these are questions for my L and coach.

Oh man. I need to breathe.

[Georgiabelle]

Claire,

You sound like you are at a fork. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to your questions. Just a thought.....can you envision a rebuilt R with you h the way he is now? It sounds like you have done a great deal of work and addressed some things that were preventing you from fully embracing life in general-not just issues in your m.

I know your h started a new position an it sounds like he is a bit overwhelmed at the time being. However, I do understand your feelings of wondering if you are just waiting for him to D. I don't know. Think about what your instincts are really saying to you.

I'm sorry that probably wasn't much help. Hang in there! You are doing really well:-)

[LisaB]

Hi Claire, I also wonder the same thing. It seems that some of the guys on here have had luck with being persistent and waiting for the woman to come back around. But what about us ladies? Will my H ever wake up from his stubborn assertion that he doesn't love me and realize he truly does?

I only have one reason to say that it can happen, and that is it happened to me with my previous ex. He was cheating, he was requesting space, he wanted to break up. And when we finally did, he came back begging as soon as I moved on. He pushed me away with all his strength and then he tried for years to get me back.

So I know it can happen. I just don't know if it will happen to me again this time with my WAH.

Good luck! Sorry about that knot in your stomach.
Hugs, Lisa B

[Ss06]

Claire, you've been DB longer but I wonder, too, wtf I'm doing if he's dead set on D. And the sheer amount of money my h is spending on "life" is alarming. Isn't that "squandering marital assets?" I don't know and I haven't talked to a L yet.

What do you really want? Are you willing to keep DB on the off chance that it'll work? I look at signatures of those piecing or reconciled and see that 2 years isn't unheard of as far as a time commitment... Maybe more. Do you have that in you? These are questions I need to ask myself too, though my h seems to be on the "the sooner the better so I can move on with my life" path which just adds to my anxiety.

You are doing a really good job of asking the right questions. Only you can answer the critical ones though.

(((Hugs))), Claire.

[claire7]

UGH.

Before I forget how tonight's meeting went, some highlights:

1. Dealt with several childcare/parenting schedule things and I stayed calm the whole time. There was one issue on which we disagreed; I held firm, tried to validate, although probably did a crappy job, to be honest. "I hear your concern..." I said, "I'm sorry you feel that way". He said, "I'm sorry YOU feel that way," in an "I'm disappointed in you" kind of way.

2. THEN. I decided to ask him why he's not wearing his ring. He said he wears it sometimes. I asked if he's dating. He is. I asked if that was why he left, he said no.

3. He said, "Intellectually, there are so many reasons to stay married. It's the "smart" thing to do. But the emotion just isn't there. I don't want to hurt you, but I just don't see a married future for us."

4. I guess I broke cardinal DB rules. "I understand that you feel that way. And I've been reading a lot about this kind of situation-- the way we feel-- 'i care about you, but don't love you,' is not unique, and I've read many stories of people who have been able to rebuild their relationships and fall in love again. It won't just happen if you wait around for it, but there are actually things you can DO, actions people can take to work towards that." He sort of nodded, but I'm not at all confident he was able to hear that.

5. He said he respects me so much more now than he ever did before.

6. I said I hope he was happy==and that he didn't seem happy whenever I saw him. He said I make him uncomfortable. I pressed him ("Can you tell me what I"m doing that's making you uncomfortable?" At first, he said he couldn't explain it (hello, communication problems that are not about me!!), But eventually said that all my validation, especially about our D3 feels like too much! He said he gets what I am doing and why, but it felt unnecessary. He loves and cherishes the time he spends with her. He doesn't need empathy.

There was a bunch more but I'm so drained right now.

Can I please just give his number to MWD and have her call him and knock some sense into him??

There is so much I want to say to him, but can't. I want to say, "It's interesting that, even though you respect me, and think that staying married is the best thing to do, you are completely unwilling to try to work on changing the things that made us unhappy in the marriage. That says so much more about you than it does about me. I don't plan on being single forever, and I know that my next relationship will be happy. How do I know that? I know what I am working on, and I also now have some tools and strategies for making a relationship work. What changes are you making that will help you in your next R? What will you tell your D3 when she asks you why you left her awesome, beautiful, smart, capable, confident mommy?"

He's never even really articulated, besides my anxiety and depression, his reasons for leaving. Just that "I don't love you anymore, I'm not happy, and I've been unhappy for a while."

So, that's that, it seems. I just bought three sessions with Chuck which seem like they will go to waste. But maybe he will have suggestions for dealing with settlement and mediation.

At the end of the day, I'm glad I said those things. I needed to say them and hear from him where he is at. What a waste this all is.

Onwards.

[claire7]

I don't seem to get a lot of traffic on my thread (but boy, the feedback I do get is so freaking amazing, thank you!!!)... but I was hoping someone might take a look at this email I drafted (in a very emotional state) and let me know how wildly crazy it would be to send it:
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Dear H,
You expressed a concern that I might be hurt by you saying that you respect me more now than ever.

That doesn't hurt me. I'm actually quite glad to hear it.

The person I was for most of our relationship is not the person I want to be, and is not the person I am meant to be, and is not the person I AM now, and will continue to be.

Would you have been attracted to this me? I have no idea. Would this new me have been attracted to you? I'm not sure.

I don't feel the need anymore to convince you that I am worth fighting for. I know that I am. And you know me-- I'm nothing if not a thorough researcher. I can name at least 5 resources that are widely respected that we could use to get support to rebuild our relationship, and all say essentially the same thing: Love can grow; and married couples can improve their communication and conflict resolution skills. This is researched-based, not an abstract or 'gut' belief). Carol Dweck's book Mindset has a lot to say about your belief that you're simply out of love with me and there is no hope those feelings would ever change. (For the record, it's fair to say that my feelings for you have changed, too. There is no way for me to know for sure whether I could fall in love with you again. It seems the only difference between us is that I'm willing to try.

Neither of our parents figured it out-- yours quit pretty early on, and mine stayed unhappily married. I don't want either of those. In an ideal world there would be some way to share with you the things I've read and heard that have shifted my outlook on relationships and life. But if you have a fixed mindset about it, and have closed yourself to any possibility, or are unwilling to remember the reasons why you fell in love with me in the first place, that is out of my control and I have to let go.

It was so wrong of me to not take responsibility for my mental health issues. I will always wonder whether things would have turned out differently if I had been able to deal with it earlier. But I can't change the past. I can only control my actions from this day forward.

The only reasons you really gave me for giving up on our marriage were my anxiety and depression. I imagine there were others. If you are unwilling to work towards rebuilding our relationship, I hope at some point you'd be willing to share with me what those other reasons are. I would like to have that feedback so that I can be sure to not fall into the same patterns again. What would your ideal relationship look like? What would it have looked like to you if we had been happier? How would we have acted differently, or what would we have done differently? How would you have been different? How might we have dealt with some of our problems differently? (Or, do you believe that our problems wouldn't exist in a happy relationship?)

I don't need the answers to those questions. But they are questions I have been asking myself and have found some surprising answers.
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Commence the 2x4's

[vossy]

I really like your letter/email, but regardless of that, I think you shouldn't send it now, or even tomorrow necessarily.

Wait at least a day or two before you send it, IF you send it.

With that said, what are your reasons for sending it? Are you sending this email because you are dropping the rope? Are you done? Or are you hoping this is going to spark some turnaround in him? Are you really hoping for those answers JUST to move forward, or for some other reason?

I think it is well written, articulate, clear and not pushy or whiney, but I also hope it matches your intentions.

[Zues126]

I wish I could send a similar email to my STBXW. And the fact that there's a W projecting those same feelings, commitments, goodwill, etc, towards her H. That is inspiring to me and I appreciate you on behalf of your H even if he never does.

I hope this doesn't come across wrong, I'm emotional tonight. I hope to someday achieve this type of communication and connection with my W. Congratulations on becoming very close to the W only a fool would leave.

That all said, probably not a good thing to send without DB Coach or lots of Vet support. Seems likely to come across as needy. You needing him to understand you, you needing him to change, you needing him to give you a temperature check. And may come across that you'll be there as a plan B. I can't see this snapping him out of his fog. Only he can do that, and my understanding is the best chance of that is if plan B goes away and he realizes these things for himself. So it looks like a good therapeutic letter to write for yourself.

Take care.

[Maybell]

Claire, I'm sorry this evening was disappointing. I hope you feel really proud of how you handled yourself. It sounds like you were on top of things beautifully -- and even got a compliment from your H.

It also sounds like perhaps his issues are more his than yours. He sounds like he's in need of IC to help him articulate his feelings better, and to process his options more productively. This doesn't sound like it's all you.

So while I really like that letter, I think it's accurate and straightforward and dispassionate, I don't think it will move him. It would move us on the boards because we're the choir. You're looking to move the guy who thinks church isn't for him. I think his response to it is more likely to push you closer to divorce than him closer to reconciliation.

Is this what you want?

It's ok if it is. You have to live fully.

But if it's not... To me, he gave you a bit of information you can use. He wants a lighter touch, maybe. I'm not sure. I see your sitch through the lens of mine a lot (why should that be??)

I feel petty complaining about an inaccurate comment on my hair on my thread when you were going through this over here, and I'm sorry for that. I didn't mean to be insensitive.

Whatever you decide to do you will be awesome, Claire, and your daughter is lucky to have such a great self-aware mom and a dad who really loves her.