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HopeTex Offline OP
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RockJC Fortunately I live in Texas, so here the Romans 2-step!

I have always enjoyed country music and going to hear good live country music. And it has always been a real point of frustration for me that I never learned to two-step. My wife went to a college in rural Texas so she learned to two-step pretty well. Occasionally after a few drinks I can get out there and fake it and dance with her, but it always feels awkward and embarrassing. The other night I was on a business trip and we needed up at a country bar with a great band and a great crowd of dancers. And t really pi$$ed me off that I don't know how to dance!

A couple years ago I went and took several private lessons, as a surprise for W. I learned a little bit. I then invited he to a lesson with me and she was impressed and pleased with the effort I put into it. But then we just never followed thru with it, never made time to go dancing, etc. and I stopped doing the lessons.

So I plan to pick up the lessons again soon and stick with it. Hopefully if things improve in our M I can dance with W. If things don't work out I still want to be able to dance.

I mentioned to W the other day that I was thinking about scuba lessons. She seemed kind of surprised. "What made you think of that? I thought you said a long time ago that you weren't interested in doing scuba? You know, I am certified and used to do scuba [before we met] right?"

I don't want to mind read, but she seemed surprised about the scuba, and i think she will about the dance lessons too. She probably views me (for good reason) as stuck in my ways and not interested in trying new things, especially things I am not already good at.

So scuba and dancing might double-count as both GAL and 180's.


Me:42 W:41
M:12 T:3
D7, D7, S5
Sep#1 Winter 2012 for 4 months
W divorce bomb 6/9/14
Started "in-house separation" 7/2014
W files for D 8/28/14
I move out 9/27/14
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 683
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You live in Texas and don't know how to 2-step? you definitely need to fix that. I am off to Chicago this weekend for the Chicagoland country/swing dance festival. I will get my fill of 2-step.

One of these days I need to head down to Texas.


M43, W37
D5, D11, D13
DB 12/11/2012
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HopeTex Offline OP
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Ok, we have some movement. Wife just texted me:

"Want to do a check-in conversation either tonight or tomorrow night."

I respnded:

"Sounds good. Either night works for me."

So good chance that tonight we will have our first real R conversation in about a month. Fortunately I have my first call with DB coach Laurie this afternoon, maybe she can help me "prepare."

Would love some thoughts and support from vets today.

I plan to go in with an open mind, with a healthy sense of the detachment I am slowly growing, and with no "agenda" for the conversation.

My goals are to :

Listen intently to what she says.
Validate her in my listening.
Stay calm and detached (in the DB sense of the world).
Do not pursue or temperature check.
Do not push an agenda; rather let her guide the conversation and leave the onus on her to propose a change in the current situation; Keep the mindset that I am a happy person with a life, even in the current M situation; I am not in any desperate need of an immediate change in the R situation to "make me happy".
If she asks whether I am still committed to the M, I will respond simply that I am.
If she asks about positive changes she is seeing in me, I will give a brief answer that I am continuing in the personal development I started a few years back, and my recent focus is on realizing that I am responsible for and capable of my own happiness.
I will not inquire about where she is with R, what she is working on personally, etc.
I will not inquire whether she is "commited to working on the M."

My hope is that she is seeing positive changes and she is feeling less pressure and more space due to my increasing detachment and GAL. My hope is that she will not want to move forward right now with a formal S or divorce, but rather will want to continue with what we are doing for a while longer (in-house separation, giving each other space, etc) or perhaps even begin to reengage in working on the R in some way. (That is a hope, but not an expectation; and I do not need that progress with W and R in order for me to be a happy person.) If she does express an interest in reengagement/reconciliation I will express my interest in that, but I wont rush in and over-pursue.

There is some chance that she will say she is ready to move forward with S, or even D. My plan is to simply listen to what she says and validate her. Stay calm and detached and self-validated. Be curious. In terms of responding to her, I plan to stick with "I am still committed to the M, and to continuing to make positive changes in myself that make me a happier and healthier person."

If she pushes a particular plan and pushes for a response from me (ex: "I want us to go talk to lawyers next week, will you do that?" or "I want us to physically separate for a year, with me getting a job and moving into a rental house nearby, etc.") I think I will just validate her and make sure I understand her proposal, and tell her I will consider it and get back to her after I have had a chance to think about it. That will give me time to think and get feedback from the DB Vets before I say or do something counter-productive.

Would love any feedback.


Me:42 W:41
M:12 T:3
D7, D7, S5
Sep#1 Winter 2012 for 4 months
W divorce bomb 6/9/14
Started "in-house separation" 7/2014
W files for D 8/28/14
I move out 9/27/14
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 95
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HopeTex Offline OP
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Wow, that was not very fun at all.

I will try to give a good play by play of the conversation. We sat on the sofa in the living room after the kids went down. W was pleasant all evening, making small talk, etc. so I was feeling pretty positive.

She started by asking how I thought things were going, how I felt about the current arrangement (in-house separation, trading weeks in the master bedroom). I said I was doing pretty well, that it wasn't a dream come true but that I was good with it for now, that I have been making some good progress in personal development and feeling happier. And that I am still committed to the M.

She said "this is not working out for me at all, I am very uncomfortable with the situation, it is not good for me or the kids. When you were out of town last week for several days it felt so much better, getting to sleep in the bed and the kids all getting to sleep in their beds, D7 especially slept so much better. I can't do this anymore. Right now I cannot live under the same roof as you. I will suggest again that you move out and live somewhere nearby, that I stay her in the house, and we do a Real S."

I was obviously disappointed, but I stayed calm. "I am story to hear that. I am still committed to the M and I want it to work. But I have already decided that I am not moving out. If you need to then I will be sorry but I will respect that decision."

W:"But I don't understand why you draw that line in the sand, it seems like you are just being stubborn and trying to prove some point. Like maybe you really want a D but don't want to be the one to file so you are pushing me to the brink where I have to file for D? Don't you understand that your moving out and letting me and the kids stay here is what is best for the kids? Their world revolves around being with me and being in this house. Whatever happens with the M, I will still be the one picking them up from school and spending the afternoon with them, so my having to move out of this house will rock their world more than anything."

Me: "Having their father move out will also rock their world."

W: "oh I know that. Please know that whatever happens I think you are a great father and I value and will def protect you relationship with them, that is so moorland to me. Sorry if it seems like I am not valuing that. But can you please explain why it is in the kids best interest for you to stay here and for me to move out?"

Me: "it is just a decision I have made. I am committed to the M. I have no interest in moving out of my house, where my family lives. If you need to move out you can do that."

W: we are in this together. We are both in this R, and we both made it what it is and got us to this point. So you can't just push everything onto me.

Me: I totally agree, we both contributed to the difficult place this R is in right now. But I am still committed to the M. If you are in a different place and want to make a different decision that is up to you.

W: "But i am telling you that it is my decision that I can't live under the same roof as you right now, and that the only way we can move forward is with a S, and it is in the best interests of the kids for you to move out. Basically you are not willing to discuss a S, so you are just forcing me to have to file for D. Do you want to have some big nasty D fight over the house, that will cost a bunch of money in legal fees?"

R: I have no interest in D. And if you choose to file for D I have no interest in a nasty fight.

W: will you please at least consider again in the next few days whether it would be better for you to move out?

R: I am sure I will consider it some more, but I can assure you that I will not change my mind.

W: but you aren't explaining why.

Me: I am sorry, I don't think I am going to be able to give you an explanation that will satisfy you.

W: do you understand that you are leaving me no choice but to file for D?

R: I am just making my decisions, you have to make yours.

W: Ok then. [She starts playing with her phone; I get up and say "ok" and head up to my room. A few minutes later she texts me that she is heading next door to hang out with her best friend for a while.]


Me:42 W:41
M:12 T:3
D7, D7, S5
Sep#1 Winter 2012 for 4 months
W divorce bomb 6/9/14
Started "in-house separation" 7/2014
W files for D 8/28/14
I move out 9/27/14
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 95
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HopeTex Offline OP
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Some general thoughts.

That sucked. But on the other hand I felt pretty calm and detached, whereas a few months ago that conversation would have really wrecked my world. I am sure I will have some waves of despair in the next day or two, but all in all I am proud of my own emotional health and how I handled the conversation. At times I got a little bit tense and defensive/agitated, but all in all stayed calm. Calmer than her.

I didn't expect 80% of the conversation to revolve around the I Am Not Moving Out (IANMO) issue. We really got stuck on that, and I feel like maybe I missed the boat there by allowing us to get into a round and round on that. My palm was just to listen and validate what she had to say, and if she made any proposals for a change in the R then I would just calmly say "Let me think about that and get back to you." But she asked it pretty directly so I just gave her the same answer I gave her two months ago, and off we went. Maybe instead of giving her that response I could have just asked her more questions about her proposal, to learn more about what she was thinking. "So you are proposing I move out. I assume we would have to negotiate a custody arrangement, what are you envisioning there? How would this work financially? Are you going back to work to help pay for these extra expenses? Are you thinking you would go to work full time, or are you planning on staying home a bunch still and having me carry the financial weight? Would we go ahead and separate our finances, as if we were D"? Anyway, the conversation went the way it did and we got stuck on the IANMO issue. She can always reopen the conversation later if she wants.

She seems to really resisting filing for D, even though two months ago she said that was what she wanted. It seems like she doesn't necessarily want D, she wants to live under separate roofs but still have the same life otherwise: same house, living same life with kids, not working full time, but with me out of house.

I am glad I didn't attack her on this, but it is pretty ballsy for her to pull the grenade pin on our M, with all the devastation that will cause for the kids, and then criticize me for not "thinking of the kids best interests" by moving out and letting her stay in the house. Wow. Really wow.

She seems to envision still spending tons of time at home every afternoon with the kids, even if we S or D. I am not sure how she figures she could do that financially, or custody-wise.

And I am not sure how she thinks she could afford to live in this house on her income, especially if she is not going to be working full-time.

Is it too much of a mind read to surmise that she expects that I would supplement her finances and allow her practically full custody so that she can stay in this house, work part-time, spend every afternoon with the kids, etc.? That scenario would also involve me living in a pretty crappy house or apartment, as I am not Daddy Warbucks.

I am not sure she really views the S as a route toward possible reconciliation. She didn't talk about that at all. Like literally nada. She didn't even lay it out as a carrot, like "Come on honey, agree to the S, maybe all we need is some time apart and then I can try to rekindle my love for you." At the extreme risk of mind reading, that does not seem anywhere in her thoughts right now.

Maybe this is the wrong perspective, but I look at her S Proposal as a dead end road that just heads to D. But I also do wonder if I am making a mistake at holding to the IANMO line.

Would love to hear from the Vets on my IANMO stance. I feel like it is an important stance in terms of standing for the M, standing up for myself, and not catering to all of her destructive whims even if I cannot control her. And I feel like my stance allows her to join in and experience more of the consequences of what she is pursuing. Finances, custody, moving out of home. And she actually has to make the decision. Instead of me moving out and making things easier on her, she actually gets to make that decision and move out, file for D, etc.

Hard to say what will happen next. Obviously lots of road ahead. Even if she files for D tomorrow, she doesn't have the $ to move out anytime soon. Unless she moves in with her folks (9 miles away). Should be pretty uncomfortable around the house tomorrow! Probably a good thing that she is taking the kids on a 5-day vacation to visit relatives in Denver starting Friday. They get back Tuesday, and then I take the kids Friday through Sunday to a watermark resort. Then the kids go back to school the Monday after.

I am still reeling a bit, not surprisingly. Although in some ways nothing much has changed. She was WAW before tonight's conversation, and still is in that space. She seemed pretty calm and cold and rational at the beginning, which is the way she typically presents. Obviously there is a lot more chaos going on under the surface, that she isn't showing. At the end of the conversation she did seem pretty flustered, frustrated and stuck.

I have to admit, after a conversation like that part of me has had enough and wants out. I guess that is the constant struggle, and the recurring question. Am I still willing to fight for this M, to put up with all of this when there is no guarantee that the M will survive? I suppose the answer is that you just do what you need to do to be happy, to be as good a husband and father as you can be, and you let the chips fall where they may.

I need to stay calm and continue DB'ing, just as before. Calm, happy, detached, GAL.

Just heard wife come back in from visiting her best friend next door, she went straight to bed.

What a ride.


Me:42 W:41
M:12 T:3
D7, D7, S5
Sep#1 Winter 2012 for 4 months
W divorce bomb 6/9/14
Started "in-house separation" 7/2014
W files for D 8/28/14
I move out 9/27/14
Joined: Jul 2014
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HopeTex, I'm so sorry, she was just bad, bad, bad.

Your responses seemed calm and non-combative to me, affirming her feelings but firmly setting your boundaries. I doubt I could've been as steadfastly patient as you were.

Of course, you have every right to stay in your own home. She has no right to expect you to leave just because she decided you needed to leave. She was unwilling to work with you; she was threatening you. It seemed like she was projecting her thoughts on to you, especially here:

Quote:
Like maybe you really want a D but don't want to be the one to file so you are pushing me to the brink where I have to file for D?


(I just got the "you pushed me to file" bit, too. Very sucky.)

She certainly seemed to expect that you would roll over and do as she said. Perhaps she hoped for a scene but you didn't give her that satisfaction. Bravo. You handled it like a man: strong and gentle.

Maybe some of the old-timer pros here will weigh in with a different opinion--I am just a newbie at all this-- but I think you handled this awful conversation just fine.


M:54, H:55
T:33, M:27
12/13 BD: EA
01/14 BD: PA, H leaves
03/14 H & OW break up
05/14 H says he will file for D
08/14 H initiates D
09/14 H wants to R
12/14 Still bungling our way through R
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HopeTex Offline OP
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Thanks Nitty.

I am wondering if it might be a good idea to suggest to W that we go see some type of D Counselor. Someone who can help guide us through a basic discussion of what D would look like. So that W would start to see so e realities about custody, finances, etc.. Just a thought.


Me:42 W:41
M:12 T:3
D7, D7, S5
Sep#1 Winter 2012 for 4 months
W divorce bomb 6/9/14
Started "in-house separation" 7/2014
W files for D 8/28/14
I move out 9/27/14
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 216
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Originally Posted By: HopeTex
I am wondering if it might be a good idea to suggest to W that we go see some type of D Counselor.


I don't know. She might find some D counselor who encourages her to set herself free no matter what the cost. I mean, I know there are good ones out there, right? But if they are D counselors, then they are geared up for D, right?

Unless you guys are affiliated with a church? One that has a marriage ministry? They might be more oriented to saving the marriage.

I'm looking in the yellow pages right now at counselors focusing on D and all they talk about is "conscious uncoupling." They don't sound like they are willing to try save marriages, just make D less stressful.


M:54, H:55
T:33, M:27
12/13 BD: EA
01/14 BD: PA, H leaves
03/14 H & OW break up
05/14 H says he will file for D
08/14 H initiates D
09/14 H wants to R
12/14 Still bungling our way through R
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I am so sorry you are having to go through this. It must be awful.

Try to keep in good spirits. Regardless of what happens with your marriage, there is light at the end of the tunnel. You will find joy again.

For what it is worth, here are my thoughts -

1) Live your life without thinking about how it makes your wife feel. This should start with sleeping in your own bed and ending this timeshare arrangement.

2) You need to recognize that your marriage is over. Maybe, one day, you will have a new marriage with your wife. Maybe not. But as of now, it is over. You need to talk to a lawyer and start working through some separation issues. This includes both finances and child custody. Right now, your wife is a stay at home mom, fully supported by you financially with %100 custody of the kids. If you were to get divorced, would you want this to change? You should be thinking about how you would manage partial custody of your kids and how finances would work. Your wife may need to start looking for a job. TALK TO A LAWYER!

3) You have the attitude that divorce is not an option. First, you may not have a choice. Second, if your wife is not willing to respect any boundaries you put up, divorce may be your best option. You should start thinking about this.

Again, these are just suggestions. It is your life. Your wife has put you in a tricky situation. It is your life. Don't let anyone make you feel bad for the choices you make. This is tough.


M43, W37
D5, D11, D13
DB 12/11/2012
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Quote:
She seems to really resisting filing for D, even though two months ago she said that was what she wanted. It seems like she doesn't necessarily want D, she wants to live under separate roofs but still have the same life otherwise: same house, living same life with kids, not working full time, but with me out of house.


Bingo!


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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