Saving my family - Part 13

[Wonka]

Scorp,

I think it's great that W and the kids are going away on a short holiday for this is her time with them. Have you thought about going to the zoo all together at some point where there are petting stations and opportunities to do fun activities while there? Just giving you some ideas here.

[Scorp7]

How can you know how far to take things with seeing where she's at? I wouldn't ask her to come back and we've at least been able to sit down together with the kids once a week for a meal.

Obviously somewhere in between but how to know?

[Wonka]

Ok..you got me right there! An analogy is in order here.

You have an abandoned baby squirrel in your hand. Now...you are responsible for its care. The first thing is gentleness, right? You can't handle it roughly from the get go. You start feeding the baby squirrel using ear drop dispenser. You don't feed it with a regular baby bottle. It won't work at all.

Same here with your interactions with W. Don't forget the ear drop dispenser when approaching her.

Hey, I am not eloquent tonight...but I think the point gets across to here...no?

[Scorp7]

hehe, thanks Wonka! I'm going to be sitting down with her tomorrow night so I'll ask her if she would like to do something together with the kids in the not too distant future.

I agree that it's good she's having this time with our kids, it will be good for all of them.

I don't expect that she will be onboard with doing something together at this point but I won't know for sure if I don't ask.

[Scorp7]

Sandi's rules say to never initiate a discussion about the relationship. Does that hold true forever? There are things I'd like to talk to her about, mainly about how we could start a new life together with our kids. Should I go there?

[25yearsmlc]

Sandi's rules say to never initiate a discussion about the relationship. Does that hold true forever?

Of course not. How could you ever reconcile?

These "rules" state they are NOT rules but merely guidelines. These are things she threw together one day, when she found herself repeating the same mantras and advice to people. They are more like bullet points based on MWD's books, not "rules" by any stretch.


They do NOT apply to all situations (which she states in there, up front) and they evolve too. If you are a person who neglected your spouse and chidden so YOU could work at the job you love, then yet more neglect and more "Not pursuing" is NOT the best course for you, right? In that scenario, pursuing is probably THE PATH to her heart...

If you were a serial cheater, then letting your w know you are interested in OWs and being mysterious, is NOT the path YOU should follow...correct?

So you tailor the suggested GUIDELINES, to suit your situation and as it evolves, you also evolve as does your behavior.

Got it?

There are things I'd like to talk to her about, mainly about how we could start a new life together with our kids. Should I go there?

I'd have to read the whole thread but wanted to address your post herein. It's a very common and dangerous misperception about the "rules",

which are NOT RULES at all. Sandi will probably have to write them over again to get that across.

[25yearsmlc]

Wow, believe it or not, I have now read your ENTIRE thread....

In YOUR Situation I would NOT bring up the R with your w. She is letting you know with her actions, that she "can" be around you. She is also "Seeing" another man and you don't know what that means.

I happen to think SOME women take their h's for granted until IF & WHEN they fear losing their h's for good.

In fact, I know SOME women do that and for SOME women, you being a bit mysterious about your whereabouts would probably help. I also know you pursued the HECK out of your w til she literally could not stand talking to you on the phone, at all, and would not allow you to speak to your children without "supervision" and she had you arrested---So that she could take the kids to live hours away from you, and only when forced, did she relent and "allow" you to have them more.

I also question the divorce and desire to avoid attorneys, which seems to come more from her than you. Meaning, for a woman who only makes a 1/10 of your salary, usually it's the one making MORE money who wants to avoid legal expenses....but I don't know her financial situation or what her parents are contributing...


I ASSUME (but I don't "know") that she saw/sees you as a bully, or she lied the whole time about you, but my gut says she probably did have that perception. She probably knowingly exaggerated but figured "the ends justify the means", etc.

IN SUM,

Pushing for more, now, seems like a great way to backslide.

No offense but if you look at MY time line below, I hope you'll understand why I see your belief that "10 months is so long", and your compulsion to push for more NOW, means your patience level is still juvenile. Since having more patience is a 180 for you, I suggest you work on that a whole lot more.

Besides, the biggest turn on for HER is probably the fact that you moved and spent so much energy on getting to see the kids. IF you start in now pushing for any type of recon, it'll look like it was all tactical to get her back.

And to tell you the truth, that thought has crossed my mind a few times already. I mean, you barely have had good access with your kids for what, 2 months, and NOW you think you should move in for more??

Is it because there might be competition? Or you just HAVE to act now? There is a strong streak of impulsiveness in your behavior, have you discussed that with your IC?

Sandi's rules say to never initiate a discussion about the relationship. Does that hold true forever? There are things I'd like to talk to her about, mainly about how we could start a new life together with our kids. Should I go there?

I have already touched on Sandi's "rules" but would simply say YOUR situation is a fragile one that has been extremely Unfriendly until quite recently.

IF I were you, I'd let all parties get used to the IDEA that you could be friends down the road...and in TIME, (at least -- AT LEAST --AT LEAST--- 90 days --but preferably a lot longer),

before I'd explore more or do any R talk with your w. Really.

There are no "secret" ways to guarantee that your w will come back to you. But we sure do know a lot of ways for you to push her away.

Rushing in for more, could show the impulsive side of you again, and a lack of restraint and impatience,

and worse, possibly an agenda about the kids (like it wasn't b/c you are a great dad that you fought for them, but b/c you wanted your wife back, that you moved there and are Pretending to care about the kids...)
and since what you are doing thus far, LATELY has been working, I'd stick to Life rule 101,
"do what works and do not do what does not work".

Every single time you asked your w for a "chance to talk", she said no or pulled away more. Every time you calmly and politely SEEMED TO DETACH, she noticed and some of those times, she came to you...

NO woman is untouched by the loving interaction of her children with their father. For many women, a man who is a "good father" is enough to stay married, just for that. And a man who is also a "Good provider" is a great catch to many women with kids.

No OM can compete with THAT. When my h and I were sep, I saw that he dated. I also dated but not that he knew so there was no "tit for tat". He was 3000 miles away for a long time and I was rusty at dating and lonely and curious about what was out there.

Dating OMs helped me in 2 ways. On one hand, it helped my ego to see that men were interested in me and that some of them were very good guys who'd make good companions.

Secondly, even those good guys also reminded me of why I had chosen my h in the first place b/c we were really pretty well suited for each other. My h has taken good care of himself and is in better shape than any man our age that I Know, and my h is smart and well read, and gets my sense of humor.

Those^^ traits made me miss h MORE, not less. And that's when I had good dates, the dates that were hilariously bad, made me miss him a lot too....

We reconciled after I came to believe the marriage had "only a 10% chance of success", and that h would be gone but that I'd be happy, either way.

That belief, that I'd be happy anyhow, sank in and eventually began to seep out of me and radiate from within. I started thinking h was losing more than me (but not in a competitive way; more like 'gee, h's r's with the kids will never be the same but mine is fine and I'm busy GAL and doing things I neglected doing for too long."

I was beginning to have FUN and, it showed.

I also have 2 family members who divorced, and a few years later, remarried their former spouses so yes it does happen.

I suggest you REALLY GAL b/c except for your musical interests, it sounds as if your activities are all things you did before...any NEW hobbies or NEW friends who are not in your typical comfort zone? Expanding your comfort zone might be the fastest way to grow, personally.

Also re your mom's death...my sincere condolences. I think the death of a parent is often under rated as a life ordeal. Don't be surprised if your grief is pushing you towards your wife faster than you might otherwise feel is safe.

Did your w or kids attend any funerals or memorials? Did your w reach out to your mom at all, and regardless of the answer, how do you feel about your w's role DURING the illness/passing? Also, I am a L and I know the probate work is taxing (not literally, but you know what i mean) and tedious and oddly stressful. Do you have siblings? God I hope so.

When your mom was facing death, Were you able to distance yourself from "needing" your w, or was she a "pillar of support" you were able to lean on, or were you able to carry on totally separately?

Be mindful that grief comes in many forms.

We can do or FEEL things, or think we do, that are actually related more to our pain and loneliness for our "biggest fan in the bleachers", than desire for the previous m.
Grief can mask itself as many other things...

IF you were to reconcile,

can you tell us 3 SPECIFIC things or behaviors you would do differently than before?

Finally, since you KNOW rushing this could easily ruin your chances for anything lasting or good to happen, can you tell us ONE advantage to going too fast?

B/C waiting another 90 days is not going to make her "bored" of you or think "Scorp must be done"....

NOR will she choose to marry some OM "Because" you went from not even speaking on the phone, to wanting to spend more time together "as a family", in 65 days of bi-weekly contact.

In the grand scheme of things, if you could detach for 2 minutes, you'd see that you are about to do something NOT smart.

And she has clued you in a few times already. Respect her wishes and her boundaries and don't force her to have to blurt out a rude comment b/c you won't take a hint.

What's wrong with letting HER REACH OUT first? What's wrong with letting HER take the temperature of the R?

I say nothing cools ardor and passion and TRUST, faster ----

than a person who keeps taking the temperature of an evolving, fragile relationship. That's my .05

[Scorp7]

Wow, thank you so much for taking the time to read my story 25years and for all your feedback. It truly is very much appreciated. I'll try to respond to all of your questions.

In fact, I know SOME women do that and for SOME women, you being a bit mysterious about your whereabouts would probably help.

This is something I have been doing during the week when I don't have the kids. I've met a few new people and been spending time with them. I think my W has picked up on that a bit.

I also know you pursued the HECK out of your w til she literally could not stand talking to you on the phone, at all, and would not allow you to speak to your children without "supervision" and she had you arrested---So that she could take the kids to live hours away from you, and only when forced, did she relent and "allow" you to have them more.


I did a LOT of pursuing during the first few months, it definitely did not help. I also let my guilt for my past mistakes put me in a position to almost lose my kids entirely. looking back it's hard to believe I acted as I did. Guilt can be a nasty thing, it's something I'm still working on letting go of.

I ASSUME (but I don't "know") that she saw/sees you as a bully, or she lied the whole time about you, but my gut says she probably did have that perception. She probably knowingly exaggerated but figured "the ends justify the means", etc.


I think she did see me as a bully. I always told her that I wanted her as my partner, an equal, my actions likely said otherwise. I was controlling and my insecurity meant I felt the need to dictate how our life went. She followed me into whatever I would lead us in to and it wasn't very good at times. We had far too much stress, too much pressure and I didn't give her the satisfaction of being happy with our life very often. She is a pleaser and she looked for me to be happy so she could be happy herself.

No offense but if you look at MY time line below, I hope you'll understand why I see your belief that "10 months is so long", and your compulsion to push for more NOW, means your patience level is still juvenile. Since having more patience is a 180 for you, I suggest you work on that a whole lot more.

Besides, the biggest turn on for HER is probably the fact that you moved and spent so much energy on getting to see the kids. IF you start in now pushing for any type of recon, it'll look like it was all tactical to get her back.


10 months does feel like a long time. It may be my insecurity that is causing me to feel that waiting any longer to act would mean we won't get back together. I have to realize that backing off and being patient will give my family the best chance of being back together.

It's interesting you mention that my actions with my kids could be viewed by my W as tactics to get her back. I love my kids more than anything in this world and I want to give them the best father they can have, regardless of my W. If you could view my actions as being some type of ploy to get my W back then it's very possible my W would see it that way as well. I guess the only thing I can do about that is be the best Dad I can possibly be, just as I have been, and over time she may see that I'm doing what I am for them, not for her.

Every single time you asked your w for a "chance to talk", she said no or pulled away more. Every time you calmly and politely SEEMED TO DETACH, she noticed and some of those times, she came to you... My W and I were to sit down together tonight for dinner but she's saying she doesn't have time as she's travelling with our kids on a short holiday she has planned with them and will be driving on unfamiliar roads. I think I believe her reasons for not wanting to sit down but she may also sense my desire to talk and reconnect more.

Did your w or kids attend any funerals or memorials? Did your w reach out to your mom at all, and regardless of the answer, how do you feel about your w's role DURING the illness/passing? Also, I am a L and I know the probate work is taxing (not literally, but you know what i mean) and tedious and oddly stressful. Do you have siblings? God I hope so

I asked my W to attend the funeral and also reached out to her for support. She refused to do either which hurt me although I can understand. She did give me a sympathy card and seemed to genuinely be concerned for me. I do have siblings, some have been supportive and others not at all. The estate is proving to be much more complicated than it should have been due to one sibling in particular which is unfortunate to say the least. Through my whole situation I'm learning just how strong I can be.

It seems that my W has noticed my changes. I'm in great shape, the best I've been in a very long time. I feel good, look good and am adjusting to my new life. The problem is that since she noticed these changes and started to open up a tiny bit I seem to need to rush in and want more. Bad idea, I agree.

Patience, patience, patience. Stick with what has worked, avoid what hasn't. Get over my insecurity and be confident that my W could actually WANT me again.

Thanks again 25yearsmlc!

[25yearsmlc]

This is Not as long as it looks (I promise!) I'm just highlighting my replies to your comments... but to summarize, your comments make me more certain than before, that your wife is NOT ready for you to make a move.

Wow, thank you so much for taking the time to read my story 25years and for all your feedback. It truly is very much appreciated. I'll try to respond to all of your questions.

In fact, I know SOME women do that and for SOME women, you being a bit mysterious about your whereabouts would probably help.

This is something I have been doing during the week when I don't have the kids. I've met a few new people and been spending time with them. I think my W has picked up on that a bit.

I also know you pursued the HECK out of your w til she literally could not stand talking to you on the phone, at all, and would not allow you to speak to your children without "supervision" and she had you arrested---So that she could take the kids to live hours away from you, and only when forced, did she relent and "allow" you to have them more.


I did a LOT of pursuing during the first few months, it definitely did not help. I also let my guilt for my past mistakes put me in a position to almost lose my kids entirely. looking back it's hard to believe I acted as I did. Guilt can be a nasty thing, it's something I'm still working on letting go of.


I suspect you were a bully to her, and the guilt and accompanying realizations put you in a much weaker position. Make sure you work on AND keep on, the changes.

The more you know you are not the "old Scorp", the better, & the more you'll act from a position of confidence and strength (not arrogance, not impulsive selfishness, but a quiet strength and knowing confidence.


I ASSUME (but I don't "know") that she saw/sees you as a bully, or she lied the whole time about you, but my gut says she probably did have that perception. She probably knowingly exaggerated but figured "the ends justify the means", etc.


I think she did see me as a bully. I always told her that I wanted her as my partner, an equal, my actions likely said otherwise. I was controlling and my insecurity meant I felt the need to dictate how our life went. She followed me into whatever I would lead us in to and it wasn't very good at times.

So then, the trust in your "leadership" was understandably broken and took a big hit? That makes sense. It's sad, but I understand it. When the time comes, IF IF IF it does, you can own that specifically, b/c I think someday hearing it might help. NOT NOW or anytime soon, but maybe someday.


We had far too much stress, too much pressure and I didn't give her the satisfaction of being happy with our life very often. She is a pleaser and she looked for me to be happy so she could be happy herself.

so YOU were not happy, and that spread? OR you would not "give" or allow her to be happy if you were not? IS that b/c you feared if she felt comfortable she'd then spend more or misery loves company or what? I'm just curious.


No offense but if you look at MY time line below, I hope you'll understand why I see your belief that "10 months is so long", and your compulsion to push for more NOW, means your patience level is still juvenile. Since having more patience is a 180 for you, I suggest you work on that a whole lot more.

Besides, the biggest turn on for HER is probably the fact that you moved and spent so much energy on getting to see the kids. IF you start in now pushing for any type of recon, it'll look like it was all tactical to get her back.


10 months does feel like a long time. It may be my insecurity that is causing me to feel that waiting any longer to act would mean we won't get back together. I have to realize that backing off and being patient will give my family the best chance of being back together.

absolutely the best thing YOU can do now is learn to sit in the discomfort you have created and learn from it. I do not yet believe you are really truly ready to reconcile right now, based on how you speak & your rushing things that seem to me, to be obviously too soon.

You have learned a lot about what NOT to do in a marriage but I fear you do not have enough "to do" models. Meaning positive role models of men whom you admire or respect, who have healthy marriages and from whom you can learn how to cope with stress and grief and everyday problems that we all learn to face.

Taking life on life's terms. Not continually trying to maneuver or manipulate outcomes. That is something you still do.

You call it your "insecurity" and surely there is a lot of that at the root of your issues. The need/desire to control others is probably related to it. But regardless, it's unappealing and destructive. You MUST manage that trait and change it asap.


It's interesting you mention that my actions with my kids could be viewed by my W as tactics to get her back.


Only IF you start asking her for more, or moving in for more, or pressing for more, THEN I believe it would make nearly every woman in this scenario, think to herself "Aha! THAT is what he is really doing this all for!

It's not the kids after all! It's just his need to control ME and Not leave me alone like I keep telling him to do..."

Plus, her parents are probably worried just as much about the same thing.

I love my kids more than anything in this world and I want to give them the best father they can have, regardless of my W. If you could view my actions as being some type of ploy to get my W back then it's very possible my W would see it that way as well. I guess the only thing I can do about that is be the best Dad I can possibly be, just as I have been, and over time she may see that I'm doing what I am for them, not for her.

You do the math...

consistent changes + sufficient TIME = change she can believe in.

It really is the only way to "prove" it. I think your issue is clearly the TIME element. So work on it.

It's not "easy" ---- but it's not complicated. Not a lot of "thinking out" this is needed. Just stay the course and add a whole lot of TIME to it. Okay?


Every single time you asked your w for a "chance to talk", she said no or pulled away more. Every time you calmly and politely SEEMED TO DETACH, she noticed and some of those times, she came to you... My W and I were to sit down together tonight for dinner but she's saying she doesn't have time as she's travelling with our kids on a short holiday she has planned with them and will be driving on unfamiliar roads. I think I believe her reasons for not wanting to sit down but she may also sense my desire to talk and reconnect more.

Agreed. This highlights the need for her and you to spend more time RELAXED --and that only happens when YOU back off, and ask her for nothing more!

Drink the STFU Juice (that Wonka sent) and sit in the "No R Talk" chair and just rock back and forth in it...do NOT DO anything and do NOT bring up the R anytime soon.

Wow, how can I stress that more?? DO NOT PUSH FOR MORE!!



Did your w or kids attend any funerals or memorials? Did your w reach out to your mom at all, and regardless of the answer, how do you feel about your w's role DURING the illness/passing? Also, I am a L and I know the probate work is taxing (not literally, but you know what i mean) and tedious and oddly stressful. Do you have siblings? God I hope so

I asked my W to attend the funeral and also reached out to her for support.

She refused to do either which hurt me although I can understand. She did give me a sympathy card and seemed to genuinely be concerned for me. I do have siblings, some have been supportive and others not at all. The estate is proving to be much more complicated than it should have been due to one sibling in particular which is unfortunate to say the least. Through my whole situation I'm learning just how strong I can be.


That last part (the difficult sibling) sure stinks. I do wish ALL parents would take the time to write out ONE PAGE of instructions that clears up any potential snafus (and shuts up the potential problem child)...but hang in there, it DOES pass.

I think your w made it clear she is NOT at all interested in more now.

That refusal of hers, was probably b/c you asked for too much (& you did, b/c we all worry about what our spouses want from us at times like this, when we feel more vulnerable or feel pity for the other).

You probably fit both criteria then, and she may have been wise to back away so you would keep your expectations low. (Remember that? You kind of forget it a lot).

Asking her for more support, at THIS time (when you are sad and reaching out and maybe acting like an emotionally drowning man) likely scared the heck out of her.

Do you see why? Do you see why going in for more, now, is such a bad idea? I mean, other than her choosing to be rude to you,

I think she's made it as clear as she can that she is ONLY interested in being in the same room as you and your children, for now, and MAYBE seeing how that goes for awhile. Not two weeks, but a few or several months...and build on that. Let her learn that she CAN TRUST that being around you is not an "Obligation to do more" for you...

To ME, the best case scenario is that she's really reluctant to reconcile b/c she detests the way the former marriage was, is terrified of falling back into old patterns in which her needs are suppressed, and you take over.

For you to want to go in for more now, after she refused to attend the funeral AND said "no thanks" to giving you more support, probably looks like you are NOT listening to her and you are NOT taking in some big clues. It MAY make it more likely in her eyes, that it was a sham and that your "real agenda" is simply to get her back...

She's being clear with you, if you ask me. She's NOT ready for more right now. Period.

Is that clearer to you now?



It seems that my W has noticed my changes. I'm in great shape, the best I've been in a very long time. I feel good, look good and am adjusting to my new life. The problem is that since she noticed these changes and started to open up a tiny bit I seem to need to rush in and want more. Bad idea, I agree.



Let her (and YOU) enjoy the new you without fearing it means she "has to do/give" more.

You are not in a position to worry about her "cake eating" yet. I think filing for the kids has cured that (unless you un-do that by making her think it's not about them).
And you know what? If you let her cake walk for a month or two,

THEN STOP. NOT AS MUCH AS damage comes from that as what happens when you pounce in to get more from her. That could set you back a lot more.



Patience, patience, patience. Stick with what has worked, avoid what hasn't. Get over my insecurity and be confident that my W could actually WANT me again.

Thanks again 25yearsmlc!

YES!! PATIENCE.....

I really think if she comes to believe you are a great father, that you really DO make them your priority, that they are crazy about you, THAT is a lot for her to gloss over.

Especially if she sees you NOT trying to take over and NOT getting all jealous (another word for insecure!!) then she'll know you may really have changed.

A true 180 for you would be NOT CARING and NOT OBSESSING about this OM.

Of course she'll date. Who cares? NOT YOU! (You know he's no match for you!)

Who says he's a better catch? NO ONE HERE. Plus, As long as she sees you contrasting the negative images she had of you, with new positive images and new "data" that says you are NOT "that jerk" anymore

then you will be the better choice. And she will notice and then, IF IF IF she can put her dukes down and lower her walls, she will tell you. There will NOT be a lot of guess work.

And if by some odd chance, he really is better suited for her than you, so be it. Accept that and move on....it would also mean there is someone better suited for YOU as well.

But knowing that is at least a year away from now---

so you need to just keep showing up, doing your thing, MORE GAL (Seriously buddy, I'll send my list your way) STFU and learning to really like who you are becoming...

With a PMA and NOT POUNCING ON HER FOR MORE. Do not show her your neediness and do NOT fear or assume she'll think "oh he is not interested in me if he is not acting needy."

that's a lie we say to ourselves to justify asking for more AGAIN...to NOT be patient!

Don't do that game. We'll call you on it!

Make sense?

[Scorp7]

That makes total sense 25years! My natural instinct is to fix things, if something is broken I have an overwhelming need to fix it. It's a big part of what I do in my career. When my marriage fell apart I HAD to fix it, immediately! That backfired in a big way, to say the least.

I'm learning, slowly, that less is more in some ways in this sitch. I love my time with my kids and feel like I'm the best dad they could ever have. My life is insanely busy and that can be overwhelming at times yet I'm learning to manage it and find some balance. I take time to stop and smell the roses so to speak. I'm taking better care of myself, getting exercise and I think I look pretty good these days, all of that has to count for a lot with my W. If not, I'm a lot better person now than I ever was before and I'd never want to go back to being the guy I was back then.

On my way in to the office the "old me" came up with a thought of serenading my W with my acoustic guitar the next time I saw her. After reading your post and then looking at things in the way I'm learning to, I think that would be a BAD idea at this point.

So, I'll stay patient. This weekend I'm going to hang out with some new friends I've met in the last while, do some yard work at the acreage and play some guitar and sing a bit. It will be good. My W and kids are off on their mini holiday and I'm sure they're having a blast.