On the brink, need a miracle

[Starsky309]

I would've given them cab money to get home, and left their inappropriate azzes at the tailgate. But that's just me.

You're certainly right that "nicing" her back towards you isn't working. Supplication rarely works. Why are you even still taking her out for her birthday if she doesn't perceive you to be a couple?


Starsky

[Onguard]

Thanks for the comments Starsky. My dad said the same thing you did! And, That is a great question. I had an offer to go out of town for the weekend and all of my supporters advised me to go. But I thought that leaving on her birthday would be a di*k move. So, l stayed and thought that maybe we could have a good day as a family. I could show her that I could have fun, be light, confident and attractive. Instead, what I faced was basically being ignored while she and my MIL partied like single college women.

I am trying to face the reality that my wife no longer wants anything to do with me. She has no regard for my feelings. When I told her yesterday how much her behavior upset me, she said that she "was happy that it hurt me and that I deserved it for all of the times that I would talk to other women in front of her." She was referring to employees of our's at a company holiday party that happened 10 years ago.

She has shown no remorse for her affair. She has admitted to still having a desire to be with her ap. There are so many signs that she is totally checked out. I am done being a doormat. In this game, nice guys really do finish last.

[25yearsmlc]

Onguard,

First, I'm very sorry you are here in this situation (although this is the place to be for just this type of ordeal).

I am amazed you have been together since you were both 13! Have either of you dated other people before you got married?

I do understand why you went to the game, and she HAD mentioned her birthday in a way that would have confused me as well.

However, once the behavior of her mother and she became weird (I would criticize it more but it mostly struck me as very odd behavior. WTH is HER own mother doing, acting like that? Is SHE having a MLC or what? Are her parents married?)

Where were your children during all this? Also, your comment about how much harder it is for you, when a lot of others know, is a good one. Frequently people think exposing the A can get a spouse home faster but I often think, "what about the LBS?" B/c it's not just harder for the WAS to return when others know, it's harder to take them back.

Try not to let that make your decision for you b/c that is just pride.

But there are other factors to process, in favor of reconciling AND against.

Just don't let your ego be one of the factors. (Ego is not the same as self respect, but it can darn hard to tell the difference between the two, at times).

Thanks for the comments Starsky. My dad said the same thing you did! And, That is a great question. I had an offer to go out of town for the weekend and all of my supporters advised me to go. But I thought that leaving on her birthday would be a di*k move. So, l stayed and thought that maybe we could have a good day as a family. I could show her that I could have fun, be light, confident and attractive. Instead, what I faced was basically being ignored while she and my MIL partied like single college women.

I am trying to face the reality that my wife no longer wants anything to do with me. She has no regard for my feelings.


Maybe yes, maybe no. But what she feels today/this hour/week, is NOT going to be what she feels next week/month or tonight.

The emotions involved swing back and forth, but you already know this. Keep it in mind. And remember that your feelings will swing back & forth too.


When I told her yesterday how much her behavior upset me, she said that she "was happy that it hurt me and that I deserved it for all of the times that I would talk to other women in front of her." She was referring to employees of our's at a company holiday party that happened 10 years ago.


Wow, that^^ was a brutal thing to say. Could you ask her if she is referring to the event of 10 years ago? I mean, I'd literally have to know if that is how wacky her thinking is. Is it?

And what the heck happened then, that she has not gotten over?

If there is something nefarious out there or if you have deeply wounded her or had an affair OR IF SHE THINKS those things, can you shed light on that now?

Was it ever resolved? Would SHE say it was? Dig deep and be brave for this...

I ask you that^^, b/c if there is nothing to it, if she is truly out of her gourd, then I'm going to have to agree with Starsky's approach here.

And you should know, that's a rare event.


She has shown no remorse for her affair. She has admitted to still having a desire to be with her ap. There are so many signs that she is totally checked out. I am done being a doormat. In this game, nice guys really do finish last.

Don't confuse nice with the word "weak". They are NOT the same.

Nice Strong men finish first.


Just so I know, are you aware of any physical problems your wife has had lately? You began your thread mentioning that a lot of this is uncharacteristic of your w.

If so, I'd want to know if she going thru menopause, if you know. It is preceded by a few months/years of "peri menopausal" hormonal fluctuations. (I know a lot of my feminist friends will cringe that I'm asking this, but if she's truly acting out of character it is ONE thing I'd want to know.

Also, not to freak you out, but about 12 years ago my bil began to act weird and "goofy". He'd tell very inappropriate jokes in public and got VERY emotional out of nowhere.

He'd lose his temper too, which was out of character. This went on for a few months and my sister talked about going to MC, which he refused to do. She then talked privately, of leaving him for awhile...but then he had a full on seizure and it turned out that he had a brain tumor. (Turns out 20% of brain tumor patients show up for "psychiatric reasons").

Anyhow, yes, in time it killed him. Although it was a lousy thing to watch him realize what had been happening and to be able to do so little about it, I know it made it easier for my sister to stand by him thru all the surgeries and radiation and chemo.

He volunteered for a new clinical trial, and lived longer & better with that type of tumor than anyone had before. He was a very good man, who passed away a few years ago.

So whenever someone tells me that their spouse is "acting SO differently", I at least pose the question of something physical being a factor. Hope you can see why.

FWIW, when my h had whatever his "episode" was, I asked him to get a CAT scan b/c he was behaving so differently than he had the previous 25 years. And b/c we had both seen BIL behave differently for a crap but real reason, h admitted he had ALREADY spoken to a shrink about it. (So I guess HE wondered too, and that counted as "checking on it").

ANYHOW, Those "nice and strong" men may not always remain married to their wives,

but it is the Nice/Strong men who end up being the most content & most satisfied with their lives.

They're the ones who can hold their heads up, b/c they know that when life got very hard, when it was so very difficult and oh so painful to take a step forward,

they still gave it their best.

If you are half the man you sound like you are, you will be loved and lovable, again.

Remember that your kids are watching you, more than you know. So you must show them a man of compassion, strength, honor and self respect.

Show them how to get thru a heartbreak with dignity. Show them that your pain is deep but not "fatal" and Not eternal.

You WILL be happy again.

Know that someday each of your children will face their own setback or betrayal. Show them how one gets to the other side.

And in time, forgive your wife. Not for her sake, but for your sake.

And yes, it's a hell of a lot easier said, than done. But it IS a gift you give yourself.

Here is what I reminded myself of, when I fought the forgiveness concept--

"Holding onto anger to hurt someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire,

to get smoke in their eyes..."



Once you know you've done the most you can do for as long as you can, then turn it over to God,

and be at peace.

Good luck, we are all rooting for you.

[Onguard]

25yearsmlc, thank you for the thorough response and my apologies for taking so long to reply. My Grandmother passed away this week...

To answer a few of your questions;

I seriously doubt there is anything physically wrong with her.

She is probably going through a MLC though. Nose job, working out 9 times a week, drinking and partying more often, admits that she is very confused about her purpose in life.

Regarding her resentment and anger towards me; She has been a stay at home mom while I have had a career. My career also required me to travel. She was always fearful that I was cheating on her, which I NEVER did. Her dad had an affair many years ago and her parents M survived it. However, they are NOT happy and her mom still hammers her dad about it on a regular basis. Her mom has also told her that she is a fool to think that I was being faithful for all of these years. It makes me furious that they have made up this image of me that is totally false. I have always been 100% transparent with my phone, email, credit card statement, etc.. I have always been happily willing to account for my time in order to make my wife feel safe.

However, I have gotten attention from women and my wife has seen it and knows it. I am guilty of not showing her enough attention in the past, so any attention that I gave to another woman hurt my wife. Understandably so. This is why she now feels entitled to do her thing regardless of how it makes me feel.

The past week has been more of the same, which is mostly bad. My wife attended my Grandmother's funeral but nothing more. No appearance at the wake, dinner, cemetery or brunch. So, I had to field a ton of questions about where she was.. This hurt me but I understand how awkward it is for both of us. She has been in my life for 30 years but her actions over the past 9 months are hard to forgive. She gave me a weak hug after the funeral and then left.

25yearsmlc, you said the right word, "strong". I know what I need to do I just have not been able to find the strength to do it. I need to stop caring about her completely. I need to focus on my life and my kids. I need to keep my career moving and GAL outside of her. Detaching has been very difficult. When I think about living the rest of my life without her it takes the air out of my lungs. Which I don't understand given ALL of the horrible things she has done to me. Why are my feelings still there for her? It's like my heart will not believe what my eyes are seeing.

Yesterday we discussed separation again. Again, I told her that I would not be leaving so she is free to do whatever she wants. She thinks that separating may be the only way for her feelings to return for me. I don't know if separation would help or not. I think the only way her feelings will return is for me to detach, GAL, find my fire again, focus on everything but her, become happy, confident and strong again. My life cannot continue to revolve around her.

[Jefe]

So whenever someone tells me that their spouse is "acting SO differently", I at least pose the question of something physical being a factor. Hope you can see why.

I respectfully disagree here. While its plausible that its medical, not likely. I have no clue who my wife is right now and this seems very documented with WAS's on these boards that I have seen in the short time I have been here.

When I think about living the rest of my life without her it takes the air out of my lungs. Which I don't understand given ALL of the horrible things she has done to me. Why are my feelings still there for her? It's like my heart will not believe what my eyes are seeing.

I can relate. I feel the exact same way. But at least it's a honest feeling and a normal one for someone who is not all wrapped up in self-will at the moment.

She thinks that separating may be the only way for her feelings to return for me. I don't know if separation would help or not. I think the only way her feelings will return is for me to detach, GAL, find my fire again, focus on everything but her, become happy, confident and strong again. My life cannot continue to revolve around her.

I've had similar conversations with my wife when shes talked of taking the kids etc. I just look at her and say, "You're the one that wants to leave the family, so leave". She'll never even care about felling for you as long as her head is still entrenched firmly in fantasy - la la land. She may need separation from the family to see that, unfortunately.

[25yearsmlc]

So whenever someone tells me that their spouse is "acting SO differently", I at least pose the question of something physical being a factor. Hope you can see why.

I respectfully disagree here. While its plausible that its medical, not likely. I have no clue who my wife is right now and this seems very documented with WAS's on these boards that I have seen in the short time I have been here.


Not sure what you "disagree" with Jefe. You think it's impossible anything physical could be happening? I merely "posed the question". You yourself say "it's plausible". Note, It's not a clam I'm making, but a question to ask.

And I related the story of my own BIL manifesting dramatic personality changes for a physiological reason. It does happen.

But Onguard points out other actions his w has taken (the nose job, working out so much) that lead me to think this is more a MLC --

that May be partly related, along with possible hormonal changes of peri-menopause, combined with self identity questions that a lot of stay at home moms ask near the time their youngest child begins to need them less.

A sense of purposeless also plays a role in a lot of depression, which is a factor is most MLCs, so I think there are many factors to consider.

Plus she has her weirdo mom and HER issues of "all men cheat" b/c God forbid it couldn't just be HER ex h who did that...

But NONE ^^^ of these mean Onguard must stay or put up with her miserable treatment of him.


But I sense that Onguard is stymied a bit b/c of his shock and disbelief that this woman is his "wife" . He cannot understand it. He sees it, but his heart does not believe it. Boy I really do relate. So I merely mention that people change for reasons we cannot see, and sometimes for reasons we will never know.

A few weeks ago (before the DB purge I think) I took a very unpleasant gander at my first posts years ago...man, I sure asked the following question A LOT-- that question was "WHY???" I went in circles with that question for at least a year, and finally I just had to drop it. Enough.

Sometimes it just does not matter why, if it's not going to change anything.

[quote] When I think about living the rest of my life without her it takes the air out of my lungs. Which I don't understand given ALL of the horrible things she has done to me. Why are my feelings still there for her? It's like my heart will not believe what my eyes are seeing.

I can relate. I feel the exact same way. But at least it's a honest feeling and a normal one for someone who is not all wrapped up in self-will at the moment.

She thinks that separating may be the only way for her feelings to return for me. I don't know if separation would help or not. I think the only way her feelings will return is for me to detach, GAL, find my fire again, focus on everything but her, become happy, confident and strong again. My life cannot continue to revolve around her.

Exactly ^^^ what your PLAN should be. GAL, Detach, become the man you were meant to become. Do not make your wife (or any one person) the center of your life.

Make yourself i.e., your growth and development as an honorable strong loving man, father and partner (of someone) the center of your life. That's YOUR goal.

Here's the thing. IF IF IF, she is going to return someday anyhow,
you GAL will have done no harm AND will make the time "waiting for her" pass by faster, & with a much happier experience for YOU.

IF IF IF we somehow knew she'd never come back, no matter what you do,

then GAL now gets you to detachment and happiness, that much faster.

IF you do not know what she's going to do OR how you will feel when she decides what that is going to be, OR what factors will influence the situation,

Know that GAL still helps YOU! For the obvious reasons -like you won't be as miserable, or lonely and you'll be able to not think about her for a few hours or even days, or as painfully, you should GAL.

But the less obvious reason (that we are not supposed to mention b/c the WAS is supposed to not matter), is that GAL makes you more attractive to others, including the WAS. That is a fact.

IF GAL has ever made a difference at all, it has brought the WAS back to the home.

So IF it matters to the WAS at all, it'd be in favor of GAL b/c it means you are not dependent on them for your happiness, so you bring something to the table other than your needs, you're less likely to hammer them with their "Crimes",
you are making friends with new people which means you are very worth of it, you ARE interestED in many things and in others, & thus you are more interesting.

GAL makes you happier, & happier people are more attractive and fun to be around....not easy perhaps, but most definitely not complicated.

No matter how you cut it, GAL makes sense for the LBS. I'd say it is crucial to making it thru this ordeal.

GAL helps to Detach,
Detaching gives the LBS some peace,
peace within allows you to begin healing,
healing allows growth and
sets a great example for the kids, (and the kids witnessing their dad GAL helps them as well)
and gets the LBS out into the world that does NOT know about his w or their marital situation
and for a few hours a week, he can breathe freely
and connect with new people and get his self esteem back up some.

Onguard, can you tell I'm urging you to GAL? Yeah, I figured you picked up on that.


On that note, ONG, what are your GAL activities? If it's not a lot, what can you begin, this month?

[25yearsmlc]

Onguard,

Your comment about your MIL never letting go of her h's A, reminded me of a man I knew growing up. See if any of this resonates with you.

I grew up with a neighbor who was a retired Army Colonel. He had been a POW for several years, in Vietnam.

He and his wife had 5 kids. Years before they moved into our neighborhood, the Colonel had had an affair with some OW, brought her to work functions and evidently really cared for her.

So, how did I, a young 17 y/o neighbor girl, know that the Colonel had had an A?

Oh, I knew b/c everyone knew that, b/c "Mrs Colonel" made sure we all knew, so we would not think he was such a great guy.

There were times I wanted to ask the Colonel about his POW experiences. Mrs. C- would steer the topic away. I truly believed for years, that she was protecting him from a bad memory.

Then l learned that she simply didn't like him getting that type of attention. At the time we knew the family, (Post Affair) the Colonel was kind, funny, handsome, strong, and really just a great guy. Yes, we all did like & admire HIM.

In contrast, She was a bitter woman, who made a snide remark about her h at every turn. From how he over cooked the grilled meat, to undermining the value of a reference letter he wrote for my h to how poorly he mowed the lawn and "ruined her flowers AGAIN".
She could NOT give that man a kind word to save her soul.

She never praised him in front of her kids, or us, and she would undermine any compliment others would give him. She seemed to live to make him pay.
I'm not exaggerating.

She was NOT kind to him at all. Seemed like she never let him forget what SHE had endured & what HE had done TO her AND their family.

Today, over 3 decades later, only 1 of their 5 kids is married, (their only son). It's his 2nd or 3rd marriage. The others (all girls obviously) are all single. 2 never married, the other 2 keep on getting married repeatedly. So none of their d's had their first m's work out OR even tried marriage...

The choice that Mrs C- made was the worst of all choices.

She could have divorced him. She could have gone to counseling and therapy, to learn how to forgive him.

But instead, she made the worst AND most tempting choice;
she stayed married AND she stayed miserable. And made it lousy for HIM too.
She never let Colonel forget his sins.

She held it over his head like the Sword of Damacles.
She threw it in his face (or threatened to) every time they fought or disagreed.

She did NOT Forgive him and she did not even try to. Not in a serious humbling way.
Ironically, from where we sat & from what WE saw, HE was the victim and she was the wrongdoer....she was not a woman we sympathized with.

She should have let him go when she found out about the A; OR as soon as she realized she could not forgive him; OR she should have learned how to forgive.

She could have bequeathed her children a beautiful legacy. She COULD have taught and passed on to them, the concepts and practices of true forgiveness, real redemption, deep love and full commitment.

Instead, she passed onto them suspicions, distrust, cynicism, bitterness and big time grudge holding. She did not think he "deserved" forgiveness -- AND she overlooked how many others were affected by her choice not to forgive.

I wish she had heard what I heard awhile back, which was

"Holding onto anger, to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire,---
to get smoke in their eyes."

You won't be repeating that^^ for your kids, thank God.

[Onguard]

Thanks for the advice 25! Yes, GAL is something I need to do more of. Going through this has made me feel like hiding but I know that is the wrong thing to do. Also, having been with my w for 20 years, a ton of my activities involved her or our married friends. Now I am trying to find new activities and new friends. I exercise, play golf, go fishing, go out to dinner, go to concerts or ball games. It's not easy keeping a PMA while this is going on but I am trying each day. I was battling depression PRIOR to the bomb drop, so as much as I hate excuses, the truth is that it is affecting me. Anyone who has ever had depression will understand the toll it takes on your self confidence and energy level. That is my biggest challenge, overcoming the way I feel in order to act as if.

[Onguard]

The last few days have been eventful. I found more notes that my wife had written in preparation for her IC session. She stated that even though her A ended over 4 months ago, she is "still not over him". "Would still meet him". "he is still influencing her lack of feelings for me" She also made reference to the fact that she regrets not talking to a man who approached her a couple of weeks ago when she was out with her friends. I know that spying is a no-no and I am not proud about my lack of discipline. However, when faced with the trauma of infidelity and the uncertainty of limbo, the urge to know the truth is overwhelming at times. I know it shows weakness which is not attractive at all. It applies pressure which is the kiss of death. But for me it's not about saving the M at all costs. It's about saving the M if it is the right thing to do and IF it can be saved.

So, she is still pining for her ap. The only reason she is not with him is because he does not want to be with her. This is a tough pill to swallow. I was under the assumption that she was adhering to NC but is it really NC when she would be with him if he would have her? I say no. After almost 5 months she is still hung up on OM. In addition, she has made it known that she is looking to "make new friends" by going out and partying.

She tells me that she wants time to process her feelings. That she needs space (at least a month of me totally leaving her alone) so that she can think. I told her that I know how she feels about OM and that her actions show me that I am plan B, at best. I told her that this situation is not working for me either and we both have a lot of thinking to do. She has been looking for a place to live but I know that she is hesitant to leave our home. Not because of me but because of fear of the unknown and the impact it would have on our D13.

So much damage has been done. Her bringing him into our home, twice, to have sex is something that I will never fully recover from. Those acts say a lot about her level of disregard for me, our M, our home and our family. TWICE! What kind of person does that? And then tells her son's 20 year old GF about it while on a drinking binge?! And now to see that she would still meet him..

I don't want to be divorced but living like this is not an option. I feel like a total doormat. Even she said to me yesterday, "I can't believe that you are still here" and "It would make me happy if you found someone else". Then an hour later she said that "she has not made any decisions and does not know what she wants." None of my family or friends think that this M can be saved. My w does not believe it either.

My plan is to have my attorney start the process of ending our M through a dissolution. I will stay away from her and allow my attorney to do her job.

[Onguard]

I have exchanged vm with my attorney. I keep wavering back and forth as to whether or not I should start the D process. My w has said that she thinks S might be our only hope because she is waiting for her feelings to return. Starsky has said, which I agree with, that feelings follow actions. You first make a decision that you want the M to work, then you act in loving ways, then the feelings return. But her feelings for the om are still strong, even though he ended the A (supposedly) over 5 months ago. Which begs the question, "If she didn't want it to end and she would still meet him now then has the A really ended?" (what she wrote down is "Would still meet him". When I confronted her she said that it would be to obtain closure. Which is total bs). The way I see it. SHE is still having an affair. She is hoping for her ap the way I am hoping for her. Which really su*ks. The ONLY positive signs she has given me are to say "I don't know what I want, I am confused"/ "If I were sure about our M being over then I wouldn't still be here." Basically I am grasping for straws.

It all comes back to the same formula I suppose. Detach, GAL, follow the 37 rules, know that I will be ok no matter what. Treat her with respect, be confident, content and strong. If she changes her mind and wants to return then evaluate how I feel at that point. I need to proceed without her.

The only question I have is whether or not to start the D. She is still in the affair mentality. If he contacted her today I have no doubt that she would be with him. Which makes me sick. He lives just a few miles from us, so even IF she ever decided to work on the M, I would be in constant fear of this A starting up again.