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#2473576 07/29/14 12:28 PM
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First post, here goes!

My H moved out about a month ago. The separation came as a surprise in the sense that he had already made all of the arrangements before telling me, but I was aware that there were problems in the marriage. We've been in counseling for about six months, although we're currently on hiatus and we may switch counselors when (if?) we go back.

I was aware of DB/DR techniques prior to the separation and have been implementing them since he left, albeit with some lapses here and there. I have surprised myself (and my H, I think) with how well I've been doing. The DB response feels natural to me, not forced -- which is the exact opposite of how I'd pictured myself responding to a separation before this happened.

H's primary reason for separating is that he perceives a high amount of conflict in the relationship, which is making him anxious. H is extremely conflict avoidant and has been holding onto small grievances that have, over time, caused him to withdraw from me emotionally. I picked up on his withdrawal about 2 years ago. Initially, we tried to work on the marriage ourselves, but we started counseling about 6 months ago because things weren't getting any better on their own.

During an argument in Feb, he told me that he didn't want to be married to me anymore. He later claimed that he was just mad when he said that, but it triggered a deep insecurity in me and we entered a pursuer-distancer phase. He claimed that he was committed, but his actions didn't match his words so I pursued additional reassurances, which caused him to withdraw even more (as happens in a pursuer-distancer dynamic). Then our MC would tell him to stop sending me mixed signals, he would reaffirm his commitment, and we would start the cycle all over again. (I was aware of the 180 concept at the time but chose not to implement it because I felt it would backfire. H was claiming to be committed and making an effort; if I'd gone dark on him he would have viewed that as a rejection of his efforts.)

The other problem (and the one that, I think, immediately precipitated H's decision to separate) is that we had been trying, off and on, to have another baby for several years. Our mutual procrastination was a source of frustration for me in the relationship, and it was something that I wanted to sort out with him in counseling. In retrospect, this shouldn't have even been on the table, but at the time I thought that we were just going through a rough patch, that one of the reasons for the rough patch was my resentment over this issue, and that resolving it would help us improve our relationship. H would make promises and then back away from them. The baby issue became a proxy for how secure I judged the relationship to be. The conversations were causing H a tremendous amount of stress, but he didn't let on that it was so severe that he was thinking of leaving. The ironic part is that I had started to feel more secure in our relationship due to other improvements we'd made, that I would have been okay to postpone having another baby (or even talking about it) for a while, if I'd known how he really felt.

For the sake of clarity, conflict for us generally means long, drawn-out conversations. We don't tend to yell or call each other names, although that does happen occasionally (maybe once or twice a year).

So, the positives:

1. When H told me he was leaving, he said that he wanted to continue working on our relationship and this doesn't have to be the end of us. He does not want to D at this time and has asked me to keep all doors open, if I'm willing.
2. H says that he still loves me, he still cares about me, and he is still sexually attracted to me. I asked if he was still in love with me and he said that was the same thing. So, no ILYBINILWY.
3. There is no OW and he doesn't want us to date other people while we are S.
4. H is in a rental nearby and we have seen and talked to each other often since he left. He says that he is getting the space he needs and that he has missed me.
5. H is initiating small gestures of affection when we greet/part (hugs, kisses on the lips, ILY).
6. We've ML twice since the separation, with plans to continue doing so on at least a weekly basis.
7. We've both talked to attorneys (and I am one) but H does not want to do a legal separation because he thinks it would harm our chances at R in the future. We are currently sharing time with our D 50-50.

And, the negatives:

1. H is not actively working on the marriage right now, only himself. H is trying to meet me in the middle in terms of what I need, but I told him that I consider us to be in the "keeping doors open" phase until he decides that he wants to work on the M.
2. H acknowledges that he may never be ready to work on the M. This is, of course, the scariest part for me.
3. I am still initiating most of the contact, especially in terms of asking for "dates." I have struggled with this because one of the things that I had been working on in MC was to take the initiative (and to be comfortable taking the initiative) rather than impose unspoken expectations on my H to do so. We've discussed it since the separation and H says that he is fine with me continuing to ask, so long as it's okay if he says no. So far, he's only said no once, and he complimented me on how well I responded.
4. I am definitely getting mixed signals. H asked for a 6 month separation, but he signed a 12 month lease. I am also in a rental (which we previously shared). The lease ended this month. At first, H assumed that I would re-sign this lease for another year, but when I expressed reservations about doing so, H told me to just go month-to-month for now and we can re-evaluate our situation in another month. On the one hand, I like the idea of being able to re-evaluate where we stand on a monthly basis, but on the other hand, I feel like H hasn't put much thought into what an R would look like in terms of living arrangements, etc -- which makes me think that R is not really much of a priority for him.

My 180s:

1. Patience. I have to back off. I pressured him before the separation, and it didn't work. I have the gift of time, I shouldn't squander it.
2. Turning to family and friends instead of H for emotional support. When I want to pick up the phone and call H, I call someone else instead.
3. Get a life. We're somewhat new to this area and I don't have many friends here yet. I am getting out and meeting new people as well as reconnecting with old friends who happen to be in the same metro area.

Thoughts on my sitch?


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Welcome to the board

Get out and GAL.

DETACH.

Believe none of what he says and half of what he does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Your H is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.

USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

Sounds like you already read this post but I put it here anyways.

Keep moving forward.


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Hey, Elsa!

Sorry you're here.

I'm so glad you've already described some of the issues in your relationship; that will give people a strong foundation to start providing specific support to you.

After finding out about the marital issues, I like to start off by asking: Who was Elsa when your H fell in love with you?

That's important. Because we need to find her again. smile

I'm guessing you're on moderation right now (unless things have changed here). Just keep posting until you're taken off.

We've got your back here!!


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Welcome though I'm sorry you find yourself here. Your sitch sounds similar to mine in some ways so feel free to check out my thread. I thought my sitch was unique too and that I needed to modify DBing to fit it. Nope. The rules don't change and in my thread you'll see a few people hit me over the head with that fact. Learn from my mistakes. Hang in there. Breathe. We're here for you.

I'm not loving the fact that your h is handing out ILYs and kisses and stuff but he's saying he's not willing to work on the marriage. It's mixed signaling to me BUT you can only work on you right now. Do that. It's worth it.


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Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
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Thanks, Cadet! I have seen that post before, but a reminder is always welcome.

Train, when I first met my H, I was smart, sexy, hard-working, ambitious, organized, and extroverted. I'm still smart, sexy, and hard-working, but the other qualities have receded as life has gotten in the way. For example, I left my "career" job when we moved two years ago, and since then I've been working part-time. I have good reasons for it, and I still make a sizeable contribution to our finances, but I think it's caused my H to lose some of his respect for me. I'm definitely doing a 180 here. Finding a new job isn't optional anymore because of the S, as I'm not self-supporting on my current income. I'm forging new friendships and reconnecting with old ones. I'm (slowly) getting my house in order. I will find the "old" me again.

ss06, I read your threads and I agree -- it sounds like we have a lot in common. My D7 also has behavior problems and I've been worried about how the S would affect her. To my great relief, she's coping very well, although it is HARD to be alone with her during a meltdown. I do still worry about the long-term implications, though.

I'm torn about the affection. I feel compelled to be patient and give him space, but without a minimal amount of appreciation or affection in return I feel like a doormat. I don't do well with limbo -- I'm an "in or out" kind of person, and I'm not ready to be out. I feel like the affection helps me keep my dignity during this process because I don't feel completely neglected. But, I understand that it may be more damaging in the long run.

Whether H is "trying" or not seems to depend on the day. When he dropped the bomb, he said that he wanted to continue working on our relationship. However, when we spoke again for the first time a few days later, he clarified that he is only working on himself right now and wants to take a break from working on the relationship until the end of the summer. Later that week in a MC session, however, he said that he might be ready to come back to MC in early to mid August. Last week he again said that his goal right now is himself and he isn't working on the M. Then we went to lunch yesterday and I made a reference to him possibly not ever feeling ready to try again, and he said, "This is trying," referring to our lunch, although he again said that his focus right now is on himself. So, yeah.

That paragraph makes it sound like we're talking about the M a lot. I didn't think so, but that's some food for thought.


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Oops. I had a big lapse in judgment this am. H dropped off D7 this morning and she had a meltdown because I insisted that she wear a helmet while riding her scooter. I was so mad at H because (1) he didn't make her do it at his house (although he did say it was a good idea), and (2) he left me to deal with the meltdown while he went to work. I ended up calling him on the way to work, which I know he hates. I took it too far, and blamed her meltdown on the S. I told him that I wish he would acknowledge that she would be better off in one household with one set of rules. He replied that he thinks she just needs to be safe and comfortable, whether it's in one house or two. The conversation deteriorated from there, ending when I said, "I want you to act like a human being and show compassion for someone you claim to love and care about," and he said, "I have to go to work now, goodbye."

I know it was wrong. I shouldn't have called him, and after I did, I should have been more validating. It doesn't matter at this point whether or not he thinks it's best for her to be in one household or two, because we haven't made any permanent decisions. He is just going to view my disagreement as pressure.

So, what am I going to do differently? I'm not going to call him back. I will wait until he brings it up again and validate him then.


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It's been over 24 hours and still no contact. On the one hand, I'm proud of myself for resisting the temptation to call him back, but on the other hand I'm getting anxious about the fact that he hasn't called me either. We will see each other briefly tonight. I wonder if he will bring it up.


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Sounds like a good plan. I have no advice to give you as these sorts of situations confuse me, too. I never spoke up when I felt he was doing wrong when our marriage was in tact. Now that he wants it over I feel like I need to point out all of his faults all of the time but DBing makes me think that is wrong. I think the point is to find the balance. From what you described, it sounds so completely wrong of him. He gets to be the good guy, with anything goes, then you get stuck dealing with the meltdown. There has to be a better way to handle it then the way you did--dragging the S into an issue that should have just been focused on D, but letting it go and validating also seems wrong. I'm trying to figure all of this out right now as well, since I am working on boundaries--something I never could identify.

I think the goal is to stick to the issue at hand and leave your R out of it. The problem was that D wasn't wearing a helmet at H's home (in many states, including mine that is illegal depending on your D's age). This lack of consistency in the rules led to a tantrum that you had to deal with. If you are going to be coparenting together this needs to be worked out. I'm sure that neither of you want to set up a situation where she can play you two against each other and being a united front is the key. So how do you get there?

First, you have to take your emotional baggage out of it. He [censored] for doing what he is doing, but you don't have to point that out. You are going to have to accept that he is going to parent differently from you--this is true whether you are married or not. I think being caught up on one ideal way to parent is what causes a lot of strife in marriages--and even though consistency is extremely important, I also think that kids really do benefit from having two different parents with different parenting styles--as long as the parents can learn to balance their styles rather than fighting about it and getting caught up in a push/pull of trying to get their way. Learning to have each other's back in front of your child, even if you don't agree, is important. And discussions about it when the child is not around should be done in a way that doesn't make one parent feel like an idiot while the other is laying down the law.

It's a tough thing, this parenting business. Hard to do alone, and hard to do with someone else. Just try to stay focused on your goals with each conversation you have with him. Is your goal to make him feel like Sh? Or is it to make sure your D wears a helmet every time she rides a bike? Or is it to prevent meltdowns during transitions from one home to the other? I'm guessing in your last conversation all three of those goals were what motivated your words (trust me I have been there). I learned that it is best to bite my tongue when my emotions take over. Then with some distance I can identify what I want to accomplish with my conversation so that I stay focused on just the important issues that will get me closer to long term goals rather than those fleeting--"I want you to hurt like I'm hurting" goals.


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Thanks, mustardseed. I think you're right -- the issue was about our D, not our R, and I shouldn't have brought the R into it. I will work on not bringing my own emotions into conversations about our D in the future because it just muddles things.

(Having had a chance to mull things over, in a way it might actually be a good thing that he doesn't want to work on us for D's sake. Whatever hope he has for us comes from his view of our R, which is actually somewhat comforting.)

At any rate, he called me this pm and I let the call go to vm. He left a message with a question about arrangements for our D tonight; no mention of yesterday's blow-up.


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Sigh. Not calling back seems to have backfired, as he spent the past 2 days angry at me due to misinterpreting what I'd said. (He thought I was accusing him of not loving or caring about our D, when I was actually referring to myself.) We ended up having a brief talk last night. I asked him if he just wanted to be done, and he said he wanted to be done with the conflict, but not our R. However, he worries that he will not be able to end the conflict without ending our R, but it's not his preference. I thanked him for being open and apologized for lashing out. We had a good talk, I think. He said he would call me later today to discuss our plans for the weekend. I feel like I have more information that I need in order to proceed (i.e., I need to stop initiating conflict and back off when I am angry).

So, when you are mad at your WAS, what do you do? How do you get that anger out?

Last edited by Elsa; 08/01/14 11:28 AM.

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Only thing I can suggest is if you know that you are angry or hurt, avoid having a conversation. I have made numerous bad choices and had several damaging conversations when I have felt wounded. It's a tough spot to be in, no doubt.


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I've learned that biting my tongue in the heat of the moment and giving myself a 24-hour cool-off period usually does the trick. wink


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I totally agree ...


As someone who can react emotionally. I truly believe in the 24 hour cool off rule. If you don't believe you can respond in a way that won't damage any work you've done on yourself then don't respond. You can always post here and ask for feedback if it's a conversation via email or text. If it's in person you can always politely excuse yourself. If it's not an emergency then it can wait smile


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Thanks, ya'll. I am just going to have to learn to be more patient and not to give in to my impulses.

I failed again yesterday at DB'ing. H called to discuss our plans for the weekend, and once again I took the conversation off-track. At one point, he told me that he just needed to "see the writing on the wall" and accept that it's never going to be different. That's the kind of thing that would have sent me down a tunnel of despair a few months ago, but I just let him say it and told him that I still have hope that things can be different. (I suppose that was a 180, at least.) He reiterated that he doesn't want to be done. I told him that if he wants space but doesn't want to be done that he should "lean in" and the space will follow naturally. Then he got mad because he said that he tried that before and it didn't work. I ended the conversation because it clearly wasn't going well. I asked him to call me back in a few hours and he said he felt like it was the right thing to do but it would be at his expense, so I told him it was okay and we could talk later.

As I said, it was a terrible day for DB'ing.

And yet . . .

This morning, when I dropped off our D, he did exactly what I had asked him to do. He leaned in. He invited me inside. He told me he was sorry and that he felt better today. He walked me out and asked D to stay inside so that he could say goodbye to me. He hugged me and told me he loved me. He asked when I would have some free time today, and said he would call to check on me during that time.

WOW. I feel like I've been handed a huge gift. Now I really need to work on showing him that I can accept what he's giving and not push for more.


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H just called and we had a lovely conversation. He led with an apology and thanked me for being strong enough to let him go yesterday when he was upset. I also apologized and thanked him for listening and trying my suggestion. We chatted for a few minutes and made tentative plans to have a date on Tuesday. I told him that I hoped he has a nice weekend, setting the expectation that I won't contact him again for a few days. He ended the phone call with an ILY, which I reciprocated.

So now, I'm pulling back and GAL with a friend tonight.


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Very, very good.


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Elsa, I think maybe you are my long lost twin. Our stitches sound so similar (baby procrastination, he signed 12 month lease, I stayed in our rental but now my lease is coming to an end, I too have been surprised by how natural DB has felt to me…concerned actually). On the other hand you and your H seem to be having frequent positive interactions and there does seem to be some encouraging signs from your H. I'm a ways off that right now - first real get together since separation coming up next week.

Know that I'm rooting for you, sis!


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Thanks, ganb8te! I think I remember reading your thread a few weeks ago, before I joined the forum. I'm rooting for you too!

I called my H yesterday to talk about plans for tonight. He asked what I wanted to do, and I said that I wanted to come over to his house so that we could ML. (I know this is pursuing behavior, but we agreed to be straightforward with each other about this topic, so as to avoid missed opportunities.) H said that sounded good, but admitted that he was nervous because he doesn't know what to do if I refuse to leave afterward. I thanked him for being honest with me and told him that he doesn't have to worry about that. He clarified that he doesn't think it's a realistic concern, just that it's where his anxiety is taking him at the moment. He said he still wants me to come over.

Unfortunately, we then had to have a brief discussion about finances, which is a conversation that we have been avoiding since BD. I work, but I am not self-supporting on my current salary. I worked out a spousal support/child support calculation with my lawyer, but I never shared it with H because neither of us wanted to do a legal S. For the past month, we have continued to use the joint accounts for ordinary expenses, and I kind of assumed that we could continue on with the status quo, but last night H revealed that he has redirected his paycheck, so that won't be happening. It also sounds like we have very different ideas of what a "fair" number will be concerning support, at least until I find another job.

Any suggestions for how to have this conversation while DBing?

Last edited by Elsa; 08/05/14 05:41 PM.

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That conversation has been really tough for me. At the moment I am putting a good deal into the joint account for her to draw from and just giving myself enough to get by on. That number will dramatically drop if not be eliminated if we do D ... this was brought up in a free mediation session last week and was a big setback, not that I would leave her high and dry, but her standard of living will decrease significantly ( I seen this as a good way for her to rethink the entire thing ... without me saying/doing anything bad .... however she was still very upset with me.)

In your case, its going to be a difficult subject .... he is in a fog and may have this grand fantasy in his head and the reality may very well be something much different. All I can suggest is treat it as a formal buisness meeting and just state facts, if he starts becoming emotional and upset remove yourself and do not escalate it, just let him know you can discuss it further and a better time ... its a tough pill to swallow, let him know you know that. JMHO


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Thank you for sharing your experience, CaliGuy. I think I'm the one who's more likely to take things emotionally, but I will try to keep my emotions in check when we talk again. We tend to have better results when we go out for coffee, so I'm going to suggest that for this conversation.

Just a vent: I realized today that he is still using the joint account for his incidental expenses. Why would he continue to use that account knowing that his paycheck for August was going somewhere else, and the only money in the joint account is from MY paychecks? Argh!


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I'm just back from a lovely evening with H. No money talk, no R talk -- a friendly visit and ML. And I left before he kicked me out. smile

I'm assuming it's good that we're doing this, and that he still doesn't want to D. Or am I letting him cake-eat?


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I saw H briefly yesterday morning for a kid exchange, but otherwise I haven't seen or heard from him since I left his house on Tuesday night. I'm starting to realize how much I was mind-reading in the past and I'm really proud of myself for NOT doing so now.

Big money talk tomorrow over coffee. I admit, I'm nervous -- if H isn't reasonable, I will have to file for S because I need spousal support (and I will get it, according to my L). And honestly, if H isn't reasonable, I don't know that I will want to DB anymore because I will lose so much respect for him.

I'm thinking of doing a temp check before we start the money conversation, just to see if there's any way to avoid having to go nuclear. (H has repeatedly referred to filing for S as the "nuclear option" because he thinks it would irreparably damage our R.) Bad idea, right?


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Good luck .... I too have anxiety when it comes to the money talk, WAW and I have been seperated for 9 months and I took a room out of a house basically roughing it all this time but if we D the money she is getting now is far more than anything I would be required to pay. Part of me has thought to cut her off a bit just to prove a point .. but I rethink that knowing it is not going to get me closer to R.
Your case, he must know that life with out the M is going to be far different hence why he may be defensive about the entire sitch. My advice, lay it out clearly and calmly like its a buisness meeting and try as hard as it is to remove emotions, if you feel them coming on , clearly state you need to take a break and will need to reschedule further talks, this gives you both time to think about the issues that were brought up on the table and a chance to revisit it later with a clear head ... just my .02
Good Luck.


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Thanks for the support, CaliGuy! We just had the conversation and it was remarkably pleasant. H is planning to pay most of our bills, which is why his idea of a fair number was much lower than mine. H also told me that he doesn't think it's his place to tell me to get a higher-paying job, which I appreciate (although he knows that I am looking anyway).

There was a little bit of R talk. H said that he feels like we are communicating better and I agreed. H said, "That's progress!" which was nice. H made a few "if we don't work out" mentions in passing, but I'm choosing to view that as an indication that he is still hopeful that we have a future as a couple.

We made plans for a date tomorrow night and on Wednesday, with another money talk on Tuesday afternoon. Baby steps!


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So, I have a question. I'm prepared for the 2x4s. smile

All of the dates we've had since we separated have been initiated by me. We had a conversation early on where he said that it was okay for me to initiate these requests so long as it was okay for him to decline them. He has declined twice, but accepted all of my other invitations. It works out that we've had a date about once a week since we separated.

On Thursday, when I called him to set up the money talk we had on Friday, I asked if we could get together over the weekend. He said that Friday night wouldn't work, but that we might be able to do something on Saturday. I said something like, "Can we go ahead and set up a time? I feel like when we make plans, they are vague, and then we have to call each other and have another conversation about the details." He said, "That's because you're asking to see me more than I'm comfortable with, so I'd like some time to think about it first." I apologized and said that he could get back to me later. He thanked me and said it was okay. When we met the next day (yesterday), he accepted my invitation for Saturday and we made plans for two additional get-togethers on Tuesday and Wednesday. I noticed that he took the initiative to make concrete plans (times, locations) for all three meetings. He even made a reference to not "stringing me along" anymore regarding our plans.

My question is -- should I continue to ask him out on dates? My concern is that these dates may end up draining his emotional tank even further if he's only doing them for my sake. On the flipside, I worry that he won't take the initiative and that I will run out of patience and end up doing something even more damaging in the long run (e.g., getting angry at him) if I feel neglected.


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Well, H may have answered my question for me. (If you're lurking here, dear, just let me know!) As we parted ways tonight, he said, "That was great - we didn't have any conflict. This was a good idea." Typical goodbye -- he initiated a hug, a kiss on the lips, and an ILY. He also changed the time of our meeting on Tuesday so that we'll have more time to talk.

I'm stepping back until we see each other again on Tuesday.


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Argh. I had a setback last night and called H to let him know that I was reaching the limits of my patience and asked if we could talk about it tomorrow. (We're supposed to have coffee anyway.) He said yes. I asked if he was mad and he said yes, because he feels like we are having these sorts of conversations every few days and it is wearing on him. (I don't agree with that, but I acknowledge that's his perspective.) I apologized and said that I didn't want to make him anxious, but I wanted to reach out and let him know how I was feeling before I got to the point where I was really angry and it might adversely affect our relationship. He told me to go ahead and do whatever I wanted to do and he would respond accordingly. We talked for a few more minutes and agreed to follow up this afternoon and to "keep an open mind," but he was clearly not happy. I'm so nervous that I've blown it!

Of course, I happened to pass him in traffic this morning on the way to work. As I drove by, I waved and smiled and he did the same. So, maybe it won't be as bad as I'm anticipating?


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Elsa

Ok .. .sorry I just got caught up on your thread. Stop pursuing, you really need to let him pursue you, detach GAL 180 ... you have heard this right>?? You at him for dates and time, is you pursuing him and he is just accepting and declining as he sees fit, you are going to have to let him start thinking about you on his own .... make him start wondering and double guessing his actions.

I see so many positives, I dont think you blew it ... you have had good exchanges ... but he has given you a gift of telling you that you getting times and dates set is turning him off and pushing him further .. listen to him and do not pursue!!! Patience patience patience ( I struggle here too so much .. but you must do this!!)


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Hi Elsa! I agree with CaliGuy, you are having a lot of positives but if you can take just a small step back that will probably help your situation. Maybe next week just practice not making the plans. (180) Let him make the plans. Tell yourself maybe you won't see him for a few weeks but that is ok.

It sounds like he wants to spend time with you, but that you are making it so that he can't "want" to spend time with you. Does that make sense? I struggle so much with this type of thing too.

Lucky you, a kiss on the lips and ILY. So many people on these boards would be very happy with that! smile

Hugs, LisaB


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Thank you both for your advice! I think you're right. I need to pull back a little bit. It's going to feel like such a huge setback if I don't see him for a week or more, though! I need to get over that, I think.

And Lisa, you're right -- I am lucky for that, and for everything else that he's doing. I try to remind myself of that daily so that I don't try to push for more. He really is trying, in his own way.

And the good news is -- I haven't blown it (yet). We had coffee today and talked for over an hour. There were some tense moments, but overall I think it was productive. H said that he is enjoying the time we spend together when we don't have any conflict, but he would like us to spend less time talking about the R. (Done!) H said that he had been thinking and he would like to try the new MC I found -- partly because he feels like the "PTSD" of what happened with our old MC would keep me from being comfortable there (he BD'ed in a counseling session) and partly because he thinks we need to try a different approach. He was guarded and careful not to make any promises, but said that he is still worried that we won't make it and that it would upset him if we don't. I'm feeling good that he's willing to open up to me, if nothing else.

But yes, I will take your advice and pull back now!


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After 2 days of NC, H picked a fight with me at kid exchange this am. Interesting. I was too defensive in response but I apologized and he accepted it. He said that he sees I am trying. I told him that I know he's trying too, and he said thank you. He said that he will call the new MC next week and schedule our first appointment. He said we'll work on us, slowly but surely.

Patience, grasshopper.

Any suggestions for how to handle C? I know that I need to do a better job of listening and validating, but does that mean that I have to completely neglect my own needs for the time being? I can probably do that for a time, but in some ways I think my H will respond better if I am assertive -- he likes a strong woman and viewed me as emotionally "weak" pre-S. What do you think?


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I've seen counseling is the exception to putting your needs aside, because you have to be honest or it won't achieve anything.

It is a great opportunity to show compassionate listening and possibly some validation, though, so it's not like you'll revert to pre-DB behaviors.

Good luck!


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Wow, I can't believe it's been a week since I posted an update!

This week was difficult for me. My GAL activities are becoming more sporadic now that school is starting back up and I have been lonely. On Thursday, I had a phone conversation with H that I can only describe as the low point for us since the S. I thought he was trying to change the status quo about something and I freaked out, which caused him to stonewall. We both reverted to our bad habits, and I was really worried that H was done after the call ended. H called and apologized the next morning, but I could tell that he was still upset.

However, we had lunch today and I think we're in a better place now. Even though we had some potentially contentious topics to discuss (finances and childcare arrangements), we were able to stay calm. At one point, he made reference to the "one in a million" chance that we won't get back together. When I used the same phrase in my response (active listening), he said, "I'd rather say 'one in a trillion' actually." So, I think he still has some hope! Also, he asked if we could ML tonight, which is the first time he's asked me for any kind of date since the S (all of our other dates have been initiated by me).

A few things did come up that I'd like your advice on --

1. He is willing to go to MC again but he thinks it's premature because we haven't made enough progress during the S. When I asked him what kind of progress he'd like to see before we go back to MC, he said that he is still "angry and resentful" for the conflict that existed pre-S. I asked him if thought that MC could help with that, and he said it's possible. When I offered to delay MC, he reiterated that he said would go (and kind of seemed upset that I was trying to suggest otherwise). I told him that the goal of MC doesn't have to be to work on our R (and I do think it would help us manage the S better either way, although I didn't say that to H). Do you think it would be detrimental to go now, if H is willing but has some reservations?

2. H mentioned that he has been wrestling with the notion of stonewalling v. enforcing his personal boundaries. He said that he understands that stonewalling is not good for us, but wonders what he is supposed to do when he's just DONE with a particular conversation. I just listened and said that it helps me to know that he is thinking about these things. I realize this is more of a piecing question than a DBing question, but I'm curious to hear what you think.


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Bumping this up. Ganb8te, thanks again for your reply, which was lost during the board shutdown.

On Wednesday night, I spoke briefly to my H. He scheduled a MC appointment for us with the new C. The appointment is next week. I asked H if he is now ready to work on the M. He said, "I don't think so. I just don't think that our interactions have changed enough for me to heal. I know that must sound crazy to you, but that's how I feel." He acknowledged that we have had very little conflict during the S, but he still anxious that conflict will erupt at any moment. (To which I want to say: That's YOUR problem, not mine, and oh by the way, why did you never go to IC as you promised you would. Of course, I did not say this.)

Instead, I asked him what he would need to feel ready, and he said, "Space and time." So, I'm going to go completely dark for the next week (except for the necessary exchanges re: D7). It's going to be difficult, but I'm committed to doing it. (Even though, as I said in Ganb8te's thread, my H has said that he feels less anxious after he talks to me, and I'm skeptical that space and time will actually help him feel better.)

I finally asked him if he has intended for our S to be therapeutic. He asked what I meant by that, and I said, "That the S is a time for you to heal, and then you want to come back to the M." He said yes, that's what he's wanted all along.

In other news, I made a new friend and I joined a S/D support group. I'm really going to be working on PMA and GAL over the next week!


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Day 3 of NC and I think I'm finally realizing why it's so hard for me. I only withdraw when I'm REALLY angry (and I don't get REALLY angry very often, with anyone). I think I've been projecting on my H and assuming that he must be REALLY angry, when really, withdrawing is just his natural coping mechanism for stress. He is much more introverted than me in that respect. I need to work on accepting that and not assuming that lack of contact means that he's angry and completely given up on the R.

Of course, NC is not completely NC because we still have to talk about D7 and other logistics. But, our interactions have been very limited, without any conflict or R talk. MC session on Tuesday and then dinner together on Wednesday.


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Thanks for stopping by my thread, Elsa. There do seem to be a lot of commonalities in our R.

I had the same revelation about 1-2 months pre-BD re H's withdrawal being his natural coping mechanism….which let to the revelation that my way of coping is the exact opposite (I turn to him to talk it out and get a hug) unless I am super angry in which case I also withdraw….and the final revelation that I would try to make up using the approach I needed (pursue him) and not what he needed (time to work it through himself).

Have you read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus? Very annoying book in many ways but it did help me recognize this dynamic. And since I hadn't found DB at the time, it was the reason why I did try to back off and let him withdraw after BD rather than doing my usual (though I was not always able to stop myself).


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Elsa,
Just read the whole thread, your situation is full of promise.

My advice, given your husband's actions and words is to be very consistent in avoiding any and all initiation of R talk. This is what's giving him anxiety, leads to most of your conflict, and gets you out of your best self.

My IC told me on Thursday that sometimes talking about the R is the worst thing you can do. I'd say, if he brings it up, validate his expressed needs and concerns, but hold off for now on yours. Give him that breathing room. There's a big 180 for you.

You've essentially been in piecing mode this whole time because, while your H may say he's not working on your M, he's staying connected w/ you, so he's working on the M. Do the 180s that he needs to see from you to feel better about your M, then be patient for him to believe the change.

Focus on being the W only a fool would leave. Have fun on your dates. Enjoy the affection he shows (most of us would give our right arms for that much positive from our S). Read the 5 Love Languages if you haven't and try your best to love him in the way he needs, when the opportunity presents itself.

Finally, I'd suggest you learn to be OK with being in limbo for the foreseeable future. He needs time and limbo w/ hugs, kissing and ML beats the hell that is the alternative.

Patience may be the most important thing in the world for you now. Do more of what works and stay out of the cheese less tunnels.


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Thank you both for stopping by!

G, I am totally like you during conflict -- I need to talk it out and then I need a hug! I've not read the original Mars/Venus book but I have been reading the "Together Forever" edition. I don't know that I buy into the notion entirely but a lot of things in the book have really resonated with me. The part about men viewing feelings as facts and women viewing them as temporary, subjective expressions -- why yes, that would be my H and me, to a T.

Joe, I appreciate your advice. I agree, I have to avoid R talk. Hopefully, MC will help because I will have an "approved" outlet for it moving forward.

It's funny what you say about piecing -- I've wondered whether we've been in it this whole time. I suppose I was waiting for him to agree to work on the M, but you're right -- his actions demonstrate that he is, even if he doesn't verbalize it that way.

I haven't read 5LL, but we both took the online quiz a while back and I know he was pretty evenly divided between Acts and Gifts. When we were at lunch last week, I said I had something I needed to give him and jokingly told him, "It's a mix tape!" He seemed genuinely happy at the thought and disappointed when I said I was only kidding. (In reality, I was giving him a book with an exercise in it that our former MC had recommended.) But it did make me wonder -- should I be trying to speak his LL or would that be seen as pursuit at this point?


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Ok, my W has the same two LL. I think you can give gifts in a way that isn't pursuing. Think about little things he likes. Not the big, obvious, "I'm trying to change your mind," kind of gifts. Just the, hey I though about you when I was at the store kind.

Acts of service...harder if you rent, but take care of anything you can that lightens his load but doesn't appear desperate. Read 5LL, it'll give you more insight, and it's an easy read.

You got this. Be patient.


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Thanks again, Joe. Acts of service is hard when we're not living together, I think. When he was here, I was trying to do "his" chores -- taking out the trash, walking the dogs, etc -- more often. But when he's at his own place, it's hard to find things to do for him.

I did give him a "win" this week, in that I'm going to let him come over and watch D7 when I have a meeting on Thursday instead of hiring a babysitter. It's something that he's asked to do, and this week it makes sense for me to use the sitter on a different night, so I offered Thursday to him instead, which he seemed to appreciate.

Of course, offering him Thursday was predicated on the idea that we would have MC on Thursday before my meeting. When I called him to talk about childcare, he said that slot was taken and we'd have to choose another time. We agreed on Tuesday night instead (hey, it's sooner -- even better!). I said, "Can I count on that time?" -- meaning that H will call the MC back and also arrange for childcare -- and he said yes.

Then I got to thinking today . . .

That conversation with H happened on Saturday. It's a holiday weekend and the MC's office is almost certainly closed today. What if H waits until Tuesday morning to call back, and the MC isn't available anymore? I realized how much I've been depending on this appointment to get me through the weekend.

Not to mention, my H is a huge procrastinator, and I don't get the sense that he puts the same amount of urgency on this appt that I do . . .

So, I texted H a friendly, "Hi! Just wanted to see if you've confirmed our appt" message. Thankfully, he replied that we are confirmed for Tuesday. WHEW!

So, a time when I should have trusted my H, but didn't. I'm going to file this under "Reasons to Believe That He Has the Power to Change" for now.

Happy Labor Day, everyone!


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Excellent. I'd try to focus this week in MC on H and validating his needs. If you have to give things you want H to work on, I'd suggest you start small. Pick something he'll be comfortable enough changing. He's probably not as far on his journey as you are, and he's the one who's not so sure about the marriage, so asking for big change is a bit much.

Maybe ask for more fun together? My IC mentioned that talking about the R is usually not as good as just sharing fun experiences.

If you get the sense he's ready to be reflective and make changes, you could go for something more tangible. I'm willing to bet he's not there yet though.

Just a thought.


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Thanks, Joe.

I definitely want to ask for more "fun" time. My H's biggest complaint is that there has been too much conflict in our R and it has made him anxious. His solution, via the S, was to limit our interactions so that he could avoid conflict as much as possible. Even the potential for conflict makes him uncomfortably anxious. The problem is that the S itself created a lot of conflict (or potential conflict) that was really unavoidable (discussions about money, childcare arrangements, etc), so while we interact about 1% as much as we did before, the majority of that time has been spent in contentious (or potentially contentious) conversations. There aren't many positive or even neutral interactions to balance it out.

H has been wary of more "dates" because he's afraid that I'll use them for R talk. But, I've yet to actually do that, and we haven't had any other conflict on our dates either. In addition, not having regular dates leads to me feeling neglected and, for lack of a better word, like a doormat (since H has asked me, repeatedly, to wait for him during this S), which makes it more likely that I'll initiate R talk, and then the cycle of anxiety repeats.

So my #1 "want" is to spend more time together having fun. My hope is that the MC will agree. My H likes to be challenged (just not by me!), so my hope is that the MC will encourage him to try this and see if it's helpful.

My other "want", at the moment, is to come to some kind of agreement about how to end contentious conversations without my H just shutting down and withdrawing. (I feel like there's a term for this -- "exiting conflict," maybe?) But that might be too much for the first session.

This is a new MC for us, but I got his name from the Marriage Friendly Therapists referral site. When I phone-screened him, he said that he will fight for my M as long as I want to, so he sounds like a good egg.


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I'd avoid the 2nd want for now. That's something H has to come to. You can't force him to change.


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I second Joe's comment. Elsa, you and I both know that finding a way for our H to not shut down and withdraw would be MASSIVE. Easy does it for this first meeting with the MC. Preventing stonewalling can be a longer term goal for us. Good luck. I'm sure you'll do great.


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Well, I wasn't necessarily thinking of it in terms of changing H's behavior, but possibly my own -- how I can I stop the conversation before H feels like he needs to withdraw? -- but you're right, that's a big topic to tackle for the first session.

13 hours and counting . . .


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(Ha - I did include a sentence about learning how you could change your own behavior but then deleted it). I wonder if that is a conversation best had with an IC to see how far you/I can get. Please share some tips if you do go into that territory!

Last edited by ganb8te; 09/02/14 12:11 PM.

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I'm seeing my IC tomorrow morning so maybe I'll talk to her about it then.

Gah! I'm so nervous/excited I can't concentrate, but I have a ton of work to do. I really want to go get a pedicure and relax. Time will speed up at 3pm when I pick up D7 from school . . .


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I'm back. So much has happened in the past few days. The MC session went well, then we had a conversation that spiraled downward on the way home, followed by a good date the next day and a couple of good conversations yesterday and today.

I think, maybe, we are in piecing, or at least really close to it.

We both really liked the new marriage counselor. I let H do most of the talking, and he surprised in that he shared some things that he hadn't said to me before.

1. H said that he left not so much because of me or my behavior, but because he felt like he kept putting himself in a position to be hurt and he was mad at himself for letting that happen.

2. H admitted, after some prodding from the MC, that the separation is bad for him, and for D7. H said that he didn't want to say that before because he felt that it took away from my pain.

3. H admitted, again after some prodding from the MC, that he sees me as the "enemy", which is why it's so difficult for him to try to meet my needs right now. (Scary, but I'm glad it's out in the open.)

4. This is a small thing, but the MC prefaced an unconventional suggestion with the phrase, "I'm not saying that I'd recommend this, necessarily, . . ." and H interrupted and said, "Please, I'm willing to try anything." (In fact, now that I think about it, I think he may have even used the phrase "beginner's mind" -- H are you reading DB?)

So, action steps --

1. The MC wholeheartedly approved of my suggestion to date more.

2. H said that his primary concern is that he feels controlled. The MC came up with a "pause" phrase for H to use when he feels controlled, so that I'm aware of how he's feeling and can reconsider my words or behavior.

3. The MC asked me to contribute a similar concern for H to work on. Since the session had gone so well, I decided to ask for a safe "exit strategy" from conflict. The MC was very approving of this, and H responded well. Unfortunately, this was at the end of the session and we didn't have a chance to work out what the exit strategy would be, but the MC did set some guidelines for us.

So, H and I are meeting tomorrow to talk about how to implement the MC's suggestions. I will come back later and ask some questions, but feel free to give me some feedback in the meantime.

I'm looking forward to catching up with everyone else's threads -- Maybell, Claire, Ss, Ganb8te, Joe, Jacket and many others -- later tonight.


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Elsa!

all of this sounds so reasonable and realistic, no? I get the feeling you both really like your MC and he/she really seems to "get" you guys.

I love that you're meeting tomorrow to further work on the MC homework.

all of this just sounds so good.

I'm cheering you on!!!


M: 37 H: 36
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Wow, Elsa! That all sounds so positive. It's so great that a few more things are out in the open and that you've got a set of practical tools to work through some of the issues. What is the "pause" phrase you mention? I always thought H and I should have a code word that we could drop when one of us was getting distressed.


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Be careful, don't try to push too fast. It's was on that things are going well. two things from MC that you've got to get through. 1) he didn't want to take away from your pain (meaning he wanted you in pain). 2)he views you as the enemy. Hopefully MC can get you through that. It is very hard to gain a foothold through that attitude.

My vote: keep at it, reread DR, especially the parts about applying changes, observing, and avoiding cheese less tunnels, don't push too hard, keep your request/demands minimal, and really listen carefully when he complains.

Keep at it!

Last edited by Joe1981; 09/05/14 11:53 PM.

Me: 34 W:33
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Originally Posted By: Joe1981
Be careful, don't try to push too fast. It's was on that things are going well. two things from MC that you've got to get through. 1) he didn't want to take away from your pain (meaning he wanted you in pain). 2) he views you as the enemy. Hopefully MC can get you through that. It is very hard to gain a foothold through that attitude.

My vote: keep at it, reread DR, especially the parts about applying changes, observing, and avoiding cheese less tunnels, don't push too hard, keep your request/demands minimal, and really listen carefully when he complains.

Keep at it!


Thanks for your suggestions, Joe. I am intimidated by the enemy comment but I think it's good that he shared it because now we can work on moving past it. He even told me today that he knows it's a narrative that he has to break, but he doesn't know how to break it right now without making himself vulnerable. So far, I'm just listening and not pushing for him to work through that just yet.

I think I may have phrased the bolded part poorly, though. He wasn't saying that he wanted me to be in pain, but that he didn't want to minimize or invalidate my pain by saying that he was in pain too -- as though he didn't have the "right" to be sad about it, because it was his decision. (This was a lengthy dialogue between H and the MC, so the meaning was pretty clear.)

Of course, the irony is that it helps me to know that he's sad. (Not that I want him to be sad, but it does help build trust in an odd way.) It makes me think of the day he came over to get his stuff (2 days after BD) and he was sad and crying. I hadn't seen that side of him in two months and I assumed that he was past that point, but apparently not.

Edited to clarify something.

Last edited by Elsa; 09/06/14 01:23 AM.

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Originally Posted By: ganb8te
Wow, Elsa! That all sounds so positive. It's so great that a few more things are out in the open and that you've got a set of practical tools to work through some of the issues. What is the "pause" phrase you mention? I always thought H and I should have a code word that we could drop when one of us was getting distressed.


The MC just wanted him to say, "I feel controlled." Tomorrow I plan to ask H what he'd like to see happen after he says the phrase. Any suggestions that I could offer, in case he asks (he usually does)?


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I actually wondered if it was phrased funny. Ok, then only one major bad there. The Enemy thing. We're you hard on him during the M? Like always on his case? Or always pushing to have your way (the controlling thing)? If so, that may be how/why he feels that way.

We're you his biggest cheerleader, or rain on his parades? Somehow you have to show him that you're on his side. I've got a similar hill to climb as well. I have to show my W that I'm 100% in her corner in regards to my family. It's a process.

It's funny that a turning point for you was when you saw him sad. After my bad months of May and June where I tried to fall out if love w/ my W (having not been here and thinking it was game over), when she'd busted my brief EA and was hurt, I actually saw an emotion other than anger for the first time since BD. That's when I realized I was still in love and was going down without a fight.

So yeah, I get how knowing your H is sad makes it easier...you feel less discarded

So yeah, focus you intentions on showing that you're on his side...your actions will follow.

Act (and believe) as if you are teammates/partners/allies instead of enemies/adversaries. Immediately end any and all score keeping. Know that the love you show him is good for you too and the points go up on both sides of the scoreboard.

Keep up the good work and remember to listen closely to any complaints your H has.


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How's everything going? Any new developments?

Hope all is well.


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Thanks for checking on me, Joe.

To be honest, I'd been staying away because the conversation on Saturday didn't go very well and I was . . . embarrassed? Dejected? I don't know.

We met for dinner. Originally, we said we'd talk for 1.5 hours. We had normal, friendly conversation for a while and then realized that an hour had already passed and we hadn't gotten to any of our agenda items. Oops.

I suppose that's not all bad, but when we segued into the agenda, things went downhill. The first item on the list was dating. H said that we could see each other socially once every other week. I wish I could have just said okay, but it felt like such a setback, because the reality is that we have been "dating" this whole time and have seen each other at least once a week, if not more, since the S. (We just weren't calling it "dating" until last week.) I let my emotions get the better of me and we gridlocked. H was taking notes and he wrote "failed" on his paper.

We decided not to even try to discuss the other action steps from MC and instead we moved on to the other two items on our list -- when we're going back to the MC (and how often) and some changes H wanted to propose to our co-parenting plan.

H said he wants to go to MC every other week and I agreed that was fine. (I'd like to go every week, but I see no benefit in pushing him on that.) H agreed to call and make an appointment for next week. So, quick, easy agreement.

H is concerned that D7 told him she gets to spend more time with me than him. That's not actually true, but it's easy to understand why D7 would say that -- I see her almost every day (because I pick her up from school even on H's parenting days) whereas H may go 2-3 days at a time without seeing her. However, the time balances out in other ways. I validated his concern but told him that I'm not comfortable changing our schedule based on a false perception. As an alternative, I offered him a "babysitting" opportunity on one of my parenting nights. H agreed that was a fair trade.

With those two items handled successfully (and fairly easily), I asked if we could revisit the dating discussion. After some additional conversation, H agreed that we could go on another date before our next MC session and that we can talk about a schedule for dating with the MC. I asked which one of us would be responsible for planning the date, and he said that he would do it. He joked that he would let me know by Friday, and I joked back about not using "The Rules" on him. So, the conversation ended on a positive note.

H also came over after D7 went to bed that night so that we could ML. (That was pre-planned.) Before he left, I gave him a small gift -- a new snack food item that I thought he would like -- and he seemed to appreciate it.

After typing that out, I see lots of positive. So, why have I been feeling down? I've been mulling over a few things that H said:

*He wants the R to work but he doesn't think it's going to. He doesn't want me to give up but he is not very optimistic right now.

*He was very defensive throughout the conversation. For example, at one point he said that if he weren't so emotionally depleted right now, he would feel obligated [not in a bad way] to meet my emotional needs. I thanked him for this, and said that knowing that makes me feel more positively about our potential future because I didn't know that he felt a desire or responsibility to meet my emotional needs. Rather than appreciate the fact that we'd just agreed on something I'd previously thought was a fundamental difference of opinion, he said, "What kind of person did you think I was? I can't believe you wouldn't know that about me." Sigh.

*Even though the conversation ended on a good note, H said that if he was speaking honestly, he had to tell me that he wouldn't just remember the end of the conversation, but he would remember the beginning and the middle and that they weren't good. In other words, he didn't leave the conversation feeling as good about things as me.

Obviously, I see where I can make some subtle changes and I'm now working on them. I just had such high hopes for the Saturday conversation that I'm feeling more than a little defeated now.

Last edited by Elsa; 09/09/14 01:04 PM.

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I promised myself that I would go dark this week except for necessary communications. I haven't talked to him since he left on Saturday night except for kid exchanges (which have happened every day since then). I've been light and breezy and tried to display a PMA each time. I'm trying to build up his trust after Saturday.

He was distant today and I had to bite my tongue several times as he was rushing D7 to get her things together to leave. ("Because you just can't stand another minute here, apparently!") Then he asked me if I had an interest in buying a coupon book (school fundraiser for D7). I said yes, we should buy one, and H said, "I'm going to buy one, but I wanted to see if you wanted to order a separate one for yourself."

It's the little things, isn't it?

I stumbled a little bit and then just said very blankly, "That's a bit of a loaded question for me right now." He apologized (and it did seem genuine). Then I noticed he slowed down and stopped rushing D7. When they left, he let D7 go out the door but he stayed back and asked me if I was okay. I said I was and asked if he was okay. He said he was okay too, and left.

Part of me wishes that I'd just said I didn't want my own book and left it at that. But, in a way, I'm encouraged by his response. He did seem to be checking on me in a genuine way. Of course, now I'm desperately fighting the urge to call him and ask if he's upset.


Last edited by Elsa; 09/09/14 10:38 PM.

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Oh man, I've had a few similar conversations with my H just like yours above. Tiny little things we used to be able to take for granted, like buying ONE coupon book, are gone by the wayside. ::sigh::

Dont' call him to see if he's upset. It's over, you told him it was a loaded question, he backed off and that's that. No reason to continue on with that.

D7's not with you tonight... do something fun if you can. Even if you're alone. Paint your toes. Give yourself a facial while blasting good music.

The little things destroy me, too. (((hugs)))


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Thanks, Ss. I took your advice the other night and did not reach out. H ended up mentioning it during an unrelated phone call the next day, but it's fine now.

So, H was supposed to reach out by this past Friday to schedule our next date night. As of Friday morning he still hadn't said anything about it, and I was getting nervous. I've noticed that I don't trust him to follow through with planning/scheduling, based on past experience. (See my post from Labor Day about the appointment with the MC.) Rather than give him the opportunity to fail, I will reach out before the deadline and make sure that things are still on track. I imagine that this can seem like nagging to him.

On Friday morning, I decided to try a subtle nudge. I sent an email asking if we could talk later in the day about our schedule for next week -- specifically our MC session and D7's activities. H wrote back and said we could talk about those things and our date night. Whew, he remembered!

On Friday evening he called me on his way home from work. We ended up talking for about an hour, and it was a good conversation. The MC can't see us for another 2 weeks. I suggested that we have another go at discussing the remaining action steps that we didn't get to last Saturday. H agreed, and asked if we could meet today, which I said was fine. H asked where I'd like to go, and I suggested that he just come over to my house. He hesitated, but said that he was willing to give it a try.

So, this afternoon he came over and we talked for about an hour. We decided to tackle the "exit strategy" idea first, in case we needed it later in the conversation. (We didn't!) I suggested a discussion strategy that I'd recently read about, and H agreed to try it. (Essentially, we shared how we felt about the problem first before we tried to solve it.)

Some interesting take aways:

1. H said that he feels like we've come a long way in our R (not since the S, but in general). He just feels like the last "6 inches" is the hardest part. I said that it sounded like he was saying that if we could get through this rough patch, we would be okay. He said yes, that's true. I said that I felt the same way. We jokingly started referring to the rough patch as our "Agro Crag." (Bonus points if you know what that is!)

2. The more we talk, the more I realize that we're not as far apart as I'd believed. I mentioned this to H, and he said that he never felt like we were that far apart. (This seemed to go hand in hand with the "last 6 inches" comment.)

3. H said that he feels we have a fundamental difference in that I feel that I "need" emotional support, but he doesn't believe that I have the "right" to demand it from him. I told him that I understood why he wasn't in a position to give me emotional support now, but that eventually, if our R is restored, I think it would be reasonable to expect his emotional support. H agreed, but said that we are "in the infancy" of restoring our R, and that I can't expect complete emotional support. I again told him that I understood, as long as the long-term goal was to provide emotional support to one another, and he agreed that it is. Yet, I get the sense that he still sees disagreement here, when I see us as being on the same page. What am I missing?

4. H asked me what I needed in an exit strategy. I told him that I would like him to acknowledge that he knows the discussion is important to me and to tell me when we can talk about it in a kind and considerate manner. H said that by the time he's ready to exit a conversation, he's out of compassion for me, which makes it difficult for him to be kind and considerate. H also said that he doesn't recognize when he's out of patience before it happens, so he's not able to exit the conversation before it gets to that point (although he did say that he would try to be more self-aware). So, we agreed on a code phrase that is supposed to be a stand-in all of those things. (It's based on an in-joke from early in our R, so it feels very "us" to me.) H also agreed that when he ends a conversation in this way, he will reach out to me within 24 hours to let me know when we can talk about it again.

5. H feeling controlled is limited almost entirely to having conversations that he doesn't want to have, so the exit strategy will help with this. We agreed that if he feels controlled for some other reason he will express, and we will stop and dialogue about it.

6. We agree that we are in a trial and error phase, and that we'll talk about how we're doing and make adjustments as needed.

Afterward, we ML and he left. We tentatively set our date night for Friday, but he is going to call and let me know for sure tomorrow. Oh, and early in the conversation he mentioned that he had a gift for me, but it was in the car. We both forgot about it, but I'm curious to know what it is!

So, I feel good about how I handled everything today and where we are in the process. Patience has never been a virtue of mine, but I'm finding the more I'm asked to be patient, the more patient I can be.


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Wow, all of this talk sounds really good!

I'm not loving his backing out of emotionally supporting you.

Did you explain specifically what you need in that area? Do you want him to just listen to your feelings or to help you work through them? What do you see as his responsibilities here?

I ask because perhaps his tentativeness is because he sees it as a LOT of work and he's not willing to commit to that. Maybe?

I am probably projecting here but it's hard not to see that as keeping you at an arms distance for punitive reasons. Is that how you see it?

Otherwise things sound REALLY good. I love that you worked on an exit strategy FIRST. A great place to start. I'm taking notes!!!


M: 37 H: 36
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Originally Posted By: Ss06

I'm not loving his backing out of emotionally supporting you.


Yeah, I'm not loving it either! But, I'm comfortable with the idea that he sees it as a goal, even if he can't provide it now. Frankly, I think if/when he is fully re-invested in the R, he won't need to be convinced to meet my emotional needs because he will WANT to. So, I'm accepting that this is a temporary space, not a permanent one.

Quote:

Did you explain specifically what you need in that area? Do you want him to just listen to your feelings or to help you work through them? What do you see as his responsibilities here?

I ask because perhaps his tentativeness is because he sees it as a LOT of work and he's not willing to commit to that. Maybe?


I have not explained it, and you make a good point. It very well may seem overwhelming to him in its non-specificity. Primarily, I am looking for comfort (physical as well as verbal). I will have to think about how I would verbalize what I'm looking for, if needed.

Quote:

I am probably projecting here but it's hard not to see that as keeping you at an arms distance for punitive reasons. Is that how you see it?


I do see it as somewhat punitive. Like your H, my H harbors a lot of anger and resentment from the past. But really, I think my H is just tapped out emotionally and doesn't have a lot to give. I believe him when he says that he doesn't WANT to feel this way and that he is desperately trying to feel differently.


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First...Agro Crag...Guts!!! Loved that show.

I envy the two-way nature of you situation. I understand it is still very trying, but I'm still driving on one-way streets over here. And sometimes I go the wrong way.

I say just keep being loving and patient. Great work so far!


Me: 34 W:33
T: 10 M: 6
S: 6 D: 5
BD: 5/14
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Originally Posted By: Joe1981
First...Agro Crag...Guts!!! Loved that show.

I envy the two-way nature of you situation. I understand it is still very trying, but I'm still driving on one-way streets over here. And sometimes I go the wrong way.

I say just keep being loving and patient. Great work so far!


I definitely feel like I'm doing most of the work, but I do feel very fortunate that he is still making an effort and that he wants our M to work.

It's funny -- in some ways I'm actually more convinced of his commitment to me and to our M than I was before we S.


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Hey, Elsa. Just catching up. Sounds like you guys are having some tough but good conversations. "Emotional support" is an interesting one. My H pulled those words out of the bag in the l last couple of months before he moved out. He felt that he was having to provide too much emotional support to me - which was interesting because at the time I didn't feel like he was meeting my emotional needs at all. In hindsight I think I was letting work stress spill over too much at home. In other words, my not being able to manage my own stress better probably led to a circumstance where he perceived he needed to give/was giving me a lot of emotional support. I'm trying to work on that.

Dig deep - why do you think your H feels so intimidated by the idea of providing emotional support?


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G, I missed you! Glad to see you back. I will have to check your thread.

I don't know that I can answer your question without engaging in some mind-reading. I know that H is holding onto a lot of anger and resentment from the past. I know that he sees me as the enemy. With that mindset, I can see why it's difficult for him to give me emotional support. It's giving comfort to the enemy.

I also think there's an element of him not feeling like what he gives will ever be enough -- but that's just speculation on my part. Pre-S, I felt that he wasn't giving me enough and he felt that I was too focused on what was missing vs. what he was doing right. I agree with that and I'm taking ownership of that issue moving forward. I think I've done a good job of showing him that I can be more patient and get by on a lot less while he works on his own healing.

But, do you want to hear some irony? What is my H so angry about? My previous neglect of his sexual and emotional needs! We have just about come full circle.

More positives to report -- we've been texting back and forth about a logistical issue throughout the day. For the first time in ages, he's peppering his texts with smiley faces and exclamation points. It's nice to see him be playful again.


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Ok, I need some advice.

Things have gone really well with my H over the past few days. We had great conversations on Friday and Sunday, we ML on Sunday afternoon, H bought me a small gift over the weekend (it was a snack food item, similar in the theme to the one I'd given him last week but geared toward my taste preferences), H was being more upbeat/friendly than usual in his otherwise routine text messages yesterday, and H told me yesterday that he confirmed our MC session for next week before I had the chance to ask him about it.

So, why did I wake up this morning with that feeling in the pit of my stomach that things are not quite right?

I think for two reasons.

1. Yesterday, H was supposed to confirm our date night for Friday but didn't. When he came to pick up D7 after work last night, he said that he would "be in touch" about it. (H prefers to be discreet around D7, which is fine.) Now, I was teaching a class last night until 10pm, which H knew, so I wasn't expecting a phone call, but I am surprised that he didn't send a text or email. So now, I'm disappointed that he didn't keep his promise to let me know AND worried that there's some issue with our date night that he didn't think could be resolved by text or email.

2. When things feel good, I start to question them. The last time I felt REALLY good about the M was the week before BD. What if he is lying to me again? Can I trust him? How can I trust him?

How do I deal with these negative thoughts in a way that doesn't hurt me or the piecing process that we've started?


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Good news: H confirmed our date for Friday.

Bad news: I'm still struggling with item #2. How can I begin to trust when recent history tells me not to?


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Congratulations on having a date planned!!

I don't know how much you and he have been talking in the last few weeks, but if you haven't spoken much, then I would go with the intention of just listening to what he has to say, and trying as much as possible to go with no expectations of what will happen.

Since I haven't gotten to the place you have WRT trust, I don't know if I have anything useful to say about that other than, your hackles are up now and I think you'll have super-sensitive radar about whether or not he's lying to you. Is it possible that the more important information is whether or not the two of you feel a connection at all?

Best to you, and have a great time!


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Thanks for weighing in, Maybell! I'm actually not too worried about whether or not we'll feel a connection -- to me, that's one of the few things we have going for us. (In fact, I think it's one of the things that I misread pre-BD. I really thought that he had fallen out of love and was trying to justify leaving by playing the blame game. Now, though, I think I see more clearly that it isn't a question of whether or not he loves me or is "in love" with me, but whether or not he can learn how to heal from past wounds.)

I think my question about trust is about the bigger picture -- can I trust that he is sincerely trying? Can I trust that he willing to do the things that I need him to do in order to restore that trust? Can I trust that he's not going to BD on me again out of the blue?

I know that complete trust is not possible at this stage. But it seems nearly impossible to have any right now.

In other news, PMA is strong for me today. I have GAL plans for tomorrow and Saturday and am just feeling really great about work and how I'm doing.


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Stop the presses -- my H just APOLOGIZED for something.

H took D7 to dinner tonight. While helping her get her things out of his car, I noticed what looked like a suitcase in the backseat. I asked if he was going on a trip, and he said no. I said pleasantly, "Oh, then what's it for?" He replied in an irritated tone, "A display case for work." At this point D7 was trying to show me something so I turned away from him for a moment. When D7 was out of earshot, I turned back and said, "I'm sorry my question bothered you. I wasn't trying to be nosy, just show an interest in your life." He said it was okay, said his goodbyes, and left.

Not 10 minutes later, I got a text saying he was sorry if he snapped at me and that it wasn't his intention.

I have been rather detached lately, and I think it's working.


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Thank goodness the above post wasn't deleted as part of the maintenance operation! It's still there in writing!


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Yes, I have to remember those moments!

I admit that I feel like I'm running out of steam. I sort of reverse-BDed on my H on Friday. I just cannot get past the idea that he thinks my needs are optional, and I don't know how I'll have any respect for him or for myself if I allow the relationship to continue under that principle.

If the board had been working, I would have posted here and you all would have (hopefully) talked me out of it.

At any rate, I said what needed to be said. I fully expected him to tell me that he couldn't do what I was asking and that would be that, from my end. Instead, he told me that he thinks there's been a bit of a semantic misunderstanding and admitted that that's because he actively discourages me from asking clarifying questions. (Although we didn't actually clarify the misunderstanding yet -- grr.) He held my hand during the conversation and, at my request, he came over after D7 went to bed and held me for a while and said some encouraging things.

However, there's still a lot left to be desired. He met me where I was emotionally on Friday, but what I really need is some kind of verbal commitment to the idea that that's what we should be doing for each other -- even if we can't do it consistently right now (or ever).

When I first told him how I was feeling, he asked me not to make any rash decisions and to wait until our MC session this coming Friday. I agreed to that. He also said that he doesn't want me to give up but he will respect my decision if I do. What I wanted to say but didn't: No, that's the wrong thing to say -- you're supposed to fight for me, you idiot! But honestly, I think sometimes that he WANTS me to pull the plug so that he doesn't have to be the "bad guy."

Ugh, I am so torn. He didn't do what I asked, but he did do something positive. He told me that he doesn't want me to feel like I have to follow through just because I gave him an "ultimatum" -- is that a sign that he is sincere when he says he's not ready to give up?

The next day at kid exchange he just acted like business as usual. We talked on the phone later that night and clarified some things (but not The Thing).

I am so tired of this. I want my M back, but I am so tired.


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I hear you, Elsa! I a going through the same thing, and it's torture. I'm afraid to ask the clarifying questions, but dying to know the answers. The trick is to shift your focus away from him, to just get on with your life for the time being and enjoy the moment (easier said than done, I know).

Even though it might be against DB principles, I hope that sharing your needs with him gave you some relief.


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Sorry to hear that you've had a rough few days, Elsa. I know it's tough and it is certainly tiring.

You say you want a verbal commitment from H. Based on what you have said about your H (and the similarities with my H) I'm not sure that you are going to get that. I'm also not sure that a verbal commitment would actually count for much in any case. Don't forget that you've got actions, real actions to base things on. Your H is willing to go to MC and I remember you've had some productive discussions following MC about how to make some adjustments.

Be careful not to expect too much from H at this early stage. It sounds like he's giving what he can at the moment and he's understanding his role is some of the confusing communication. Try to be patient and accept that for what it is (a lot of positives from where I am sitting).

How's your D7 doing?


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Darn you guys and your common sense. smile

G, I know you're right. He has told me, repeatedly, that he is giving me everything he has. I am always so frustrated when he says that, and I was going to complain some more about it here, but now that I've typed out the statement and am looking at it, perhaps I need to be more compassionate. If he is giving me everything he has, isn't that something, even if it's not enough for me right now? From his perspective, giving me everything he has probably seems huge. I can't believe I'd not thought of it that way before.

Of course, the other issue is trust, trust, trust. I don't know that I really believe him when he says that he is giving everything he has. I think that's where I get stuck. (I know, I know -- believe none of what he says and half of what he does . . . )

On a more positive note, I just remembered that he apologized again yesterday! I had to text him in the morning with a couple of question. It was a light, friendly text, but I could tell from his responses that he was frustrated. We ended up having to go back and forth on one of the issues, so I decided just to call him. H asked why I was calling and I said it was because I could tell he was frustrated and I thought it would be better to talk on the phone. H admitted that he was frustrated but said that he didn't really want to talk about it. I asked him if I had done anything unreasonable and he said no, that he was just frustrated by the interruption. I told him that I would let him be and we could talk it later. He said thank you and wished me a good day.

Later, at kid exchange, he pulled me aside and asked if I'd had an okay day. I said I had a great day and I hoped he did too. Then he said, "I'm sorry for this morning." I just said, "Thanks, I'm sorry too."

I have to remember this stuff when I'm feeling defeated.


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And he just apologized AGAIN for yesterday morning when he came to pick up D7. It was so out of the blue that I momentarily forgot that anything sour had happened between us yesterday and I had to ask him what he was apologizing for!

It really wasn't that big of a deal, but I'm intrigued that he's pulling a real 180.

Interesting observation: As part of his apology today, he said, "I don't want to be a jerk." Now, I just smiled and said thank you, but in my head I'm thinking, "Well, that's nice that you want to preserve your positive self-image, but what about me and my feelings and what you're trying to tell me about our R when you apologize . . . "

And then I remembered that he equates getting along with a normal R. He has never wanted to "just" be friendly and has said that he won't give up until he's so mad that he never wants to see me again. I don't share that sentiment at all (I plan to be friendly no matter what happens -- we share a child, after all), but it means that it is good that he wants to be best self around me.


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This is primarily a vent, but if anyone has any advice, please feel free to chime in.

We are going to MC tomorrow and this morning we had a brief check-in to talk about what we wanted to talk about with the MC. (Did you follow that?)

H said that he wants to discuss our "financial situation" and how the financial vulnerability he feels is keeping him from growing closer to me. I knew this was coming, because he'd brought it up a few times over the past few weeks and I'd deflected the conversation (because really, my sympathy for him on this issue only goes so far).

Let's recap, shall we?

1. He makes more than 3x as much money as I do.
2. His paycheck is now deposited into a bank account that my name isn't on.
3. We live in a high cost of living area and I cannot pay my necessary expenses without help from him.
4. The amount I am asking for is less than what my attorney said that I would be entitled to receive.
5. If he stopped giving me (enough) money, I wouldn't have the resources to pay my attorney to go to court.
6. I left a much higher paying job (and a much lower cost of living area) to move here for him 2 yrs ago. His salary has doubled since we moved. Mine has gone down by about a third.
7. He created the situation by choosing to move out.

His concern is that giving me a set amount of money each month will set a precedent for alimony in the event that we don't reconcile.

Now, in theory, we should have enough money between the two of us to pay all of our bills and then some. My suggestion was that we commingle our finances again in a joint bank account that is used for bill-paying, and then pay ourselves an allowance for spending money so that we still have privacy and control over our own discretionary expenses. I told him that our allowance could be in proportion to our individual incomes if he preferred. I mentioned this idea to him a few weeks ago and I'm assuming that since he's still hung up on the finances that he doesn't want to do it (or doesn't think that it's going to resolve the problem).

I am looking for another job but quite frankly I like the job(s) I have and a new job is incompatible with some of my goals if we do reconcile.


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Elsa, sorry if you addressed this previously, but have you consulted a L? There are formulas that vary by state for child support and alimony. In my state, alimony varies by number of years you've been married -I qualify for "permanent". I've also been told by both Ls I consulted that there's no need for me to change my job to a higher income if I don't want to. If you haven't already, get some advice on this, get a good handle on your assets, expenses, income, and what a court might order. It will make you feel better, and give you an idea of how to structure things now.

Don't be afraid or ashamed that H has to pay more than you do. I personally made choices that supported my H's career, not mine, and those choices also allowed me flexibility that made our family life better for our kids. As a result, he makes 4-5 times what I do, and if it comes time to split things legally, I'll happily accept my share of his income each and every month. I earned it.



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Yep, I've talked to an L and I have a (rough) idea of what I'd probably get.

I'm also an L myself (although I don't do family law) and I'm pretty sure that H is misunderstanding some of the advice he received from the L he consulted (to his detriment, in at least one significant way). However, I'm not about to correct him at this point!


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How you holding up, Elsa?


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Thanks for checking on me, G! I had a long post typed up a couple of days ago and then my computer gave me the blue screen of death, so I lost it.

A lot is happening -- some good, some bad -- but I don't feel very much movement in my sitch at all right now. I also don't think I've been very "good" at DBing over the last couple of weeks. But maybe, since we're trying to work on the M, it's okay to have more R talk, pursuit, etc?

I had pulled way back again in the week before our 2nd MC session -- LC related to our D7 and logistics only. This was the week that H kept apologizing for being rude to me one morning on the phone.

The night before MC, he watched D7 at my house while I went to a GAL activity. He was grumpy when he arrived but I decided not to say anything and see what happened when I got back. Unfortunately, when I came home he was asleep on the couch and I had to wake him up, which reignited (or exacerbated) his grumpiness. We had an awkward goodbye and then about 10 minutes later I texted him and said that I was feeling really defeated because I had given him space all week and it just seemed to make him more distant. I told him that I was so close to giving up and I wanted a reason to keep fighting.

He texted me back at 5am and said he was sorry that I was feeling defeated and asked if we could talk during the day before MC. I said yes and we set a time. He called me later that morning and basically said that he didn't have the words to reassure me but he doesn't want me to give up. I told him I felt like we were hanging by a thread and he said that he felt he was communicating otherwise, that he doesn't feel close to giving up right now. (I really feel like I'm getting mixed messages here.) We agreed that we wouldn't resolve everything in one phone call, that we're both still trying, and that we'd see each at MC that afternoon.

I'll come back and post about MC session itself in a little while.


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Onto the MC session itself (Friday afternoon):

We started by telling the MC what we each wanted to talk about. For H, it was the finances and the fact that he feels like I don't honor the agreements we make in/after counseling. I wanted to talk about a plan for spending more time together and how to recognize and/or celebrate the improvements we are making.

The MC asked what we wanted to start with, and I agreed to talk about the finances first.

So, H repeats what he'd told me before the session -- that he feels financially vulnerable to me because he's setting a precedent each month for spousal support in the event that we D. I explain the ways in which I feel financially vulnerable and how it spills over into other parts of the R (e.g., I'm afraid to speak my mind for fear of being cut off financially). I also brought up the fact that, in theory, neither one of us wants a D, so why are we spending so much of our energy as a couple discussing a hypothetical outcome that neither of us wants?

The MC asked my H if still wants to reconcile. H said, "Yes, that's my ultimate goal." The MC looked at me and said, "You share that too, right?" I said I did. The MC said, "So you aren't separated with the intent of getting divorced. You're married, but living separately. That's a big difference."

We ended up talking about why I work part-time. I mentioned that going back to work full-time before the S was incompatible with some of my other goals. The MC asked what those goals were, and I said, "I wanted to have more children." The MC then turned to my H and asked the dreaded question, "Do you want more children?"

Now, I have purposefully avoided this topic with my H. Since we separated, I have not asked him even one time whether or not he wants more children. (You may recall that he told me when he left that he felt like his only options were to give me another baby or leave me.) I wanted to make my decision about our M without that information -- to decide whether the M was something I wanted apart from the opportunity to have more children. As I'm still in the deciding stage, I've been very happy in my ignorance.

But, H answered the question anyway, and the answer was yes. So, that's good, in a way. But I'm going to have to be careful not to let that prospect cloud my judgment moving forward.

So, H mentions that he is disappointed that, before the S, I said I would look for another job but didn't. I interrupted him and said that he had said we could have another baby but didn't really mean that either at the time, and that rather than focus on things we said six months ago under entirely different circumstances I wished we could focus on where we are now.

H shot me A Look after I said this so I apologized. The MC stopped us and asked my H how he felt. H started crying and said he felt "beaten down." The MC told him to ask me if I meant to make him feel that way. I said no. The MC then led us through an exercise where H told me how he was interpreting the things I said or did. The MC encouraged him to listen to how I responded and to use those responses to re-interpret what I said or did in a way that wasn't so negative. Then we did the same thing in reverse with one of "my" issues.

So, the whole "I feel controlled" thing from last time was as much about my H recognizing when he's by filtering an interaction through an inaccurate narrative as it is about alerting me to when I'm hurting him.

We left the session and he gave me a little side hug -- which is normally not a big deal but D7 was with us at that point (she'd been doing her homework in the waiting room) and he's not shown me any affection in front of her since early July.

A few hours later I realized that he texted me right after the session and suggested that we go to dinner at a favorite restaurant across the street after our next session.

A little more happened over the weekend, but I need to get some work done. I'll come back and add more later.


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Ok, next chapter!

On Saturday morning I dropped D7 off at his house for kid exchange. He said that he was planning to buy a kitchen table and that idea just triggered a real hopelessness in me. I said to him, "We're never getting back together, are we?" (Remember when I said I've been a bad DBer lately?)

H said, "It doesn't have to be that way but if we keep having moments like this it will be." Then he got upset and started to stonewall me. I looked at him and said the code phrase that we had so painstakingly worked out together just two weeks earlier. It didn't even register with him. (So who is it that doesn't hold to agreements we make in/after counseling . . . )

We kind of smoothed things over and I left. I called him about a half an hour later and said I was sorry. He apologized also and asked why those moments keep happening. We had heart to heart in which we both admitted feeling hopeless with our situation at the moment. H insisted that he didn't want to feel that way. We agreed that we would talk more later that night.

On Saturday H called and we had another long phone call. H again reiterated that he wants to be married, but he doesn't know how to get from here to there and isn't feeling very optimistic at the moment. I listened and validated and he did the same, for the most part. (Which is a 180 for him, at least compared to the past 6 months or so.) I asked him if the conversation was hard for him and he said that it was but he understands that it is part of the process. I asked what the next step would be and he said lunch this week -- which we did on Wednesday.

He also came over on Tuesday night for ML. While we were cuddling afterward I asked him if he'd ever seen When Harry Met Sally -- thinking of the bit about how after sex the man is trying to figure out how to leave. He said he hadn't, but asked me if "we" owned it.

Other interactions this week have been mostly positive. I've noticed that he makes a point to address me during kid exchanges and ask me how I'm doing, whether I had a good day, etc. He is texting me more (about kid/logistic stuff, but still).

I have no confidence that his actions mean anything when he is so pessimistic with his words.


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Just popping in for a long-overdue update --

We had our 3rd session with the new MC yesterday. I'm liking this counselor more and more. He teaches couples how to have heart-to-heart conversations and most of the session is spent talking to each other rather than the MC.

The MC will interject when he feels like we aren't communicating well. For example, at one point during the session, H said that he didn't "want" to help me feel better. I responded honestly and said that made me want to get up and leave. The MC asked H if he meant to say he didn't "want" to help me. H said no, the problem is that he can't. We went back and forth on that for a few minutes until finally the MC took over for my H and said, "Elsa, the problem isn't that I don't want to or that I can't, it's that I'm in a quandary, because I don't know how to help you without hurting myself." H confirmed that's how he feels.

H and I continued on our own from there and I felt like we were having a brand new conversation. H said that he wants to give me another chance but he is afraid that if it doesn't work he won't have any more chances left. I told him that I don't think I'm ready to take his last chance because we still have work to do. I also said that this is delicate dance and we have to work together. H said that he felt like I was saying that he had to change first (???) and that the only way he knows to make things better is to take more time for healing. The MC interjected and said that I was saying some really positive things about working together -- which is helpful, because H will listen to whatever the MC says.

I mentioned feeling like we were back at "square one" when H talked about focusing on himself. The MC said that it was normal to make progress and then fall back to a "comfortable" place, but that over time the progress will build and it won't crumble away. I liked that the MC seemed to value connecting over retreating, and it was helpful for me to hear the MC say that falling backward is part of the process of moving forward.

Afterward we went to dinner and had a nice time. H shared some good news about his job (and made a point to say -- "I'm sharing this because I want you to be the first person I tell").

We're going to do a fall activity together with D7 tomorrow. It will be the first time we've done anything as a family since the day we told her about the S (so, 3 months). I know he's nervous but I'm just going to maintain a PMA and show him that we can have a better R.


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Hooray for progress! Even if it's 3 steps forward, 2 steps back. Keep after it.


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S: 6 D: 5
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Elsa, this is AWESOME news! Keep up the great work and remain patient. And your MC is right on the money with the comment about falling back while moving forward. If you expect it to be a continuous, gradual improvement with no setbacks, you will be severely disappointed when the inevitable setbacks occur. Learn from them and keep rolling smile


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Thanks for your cheerleading!

I have been lurking but for some reason haven't felt up to posting during the past few weeks. I think it's been a combination of busy-ness (work is picking up for me right now, so I have little free time) and feeling like I'm failing at DBing. But, I thought I'd pop in for an update.

We are definitely on a rollercoaster. My H continues to affirm that he wants the M to work, but he has been very pessimistic in his belief that it will. Things seemed to get better and I went on a limb and asked him to spend the night last weekend. Of course, he said no and we had an awful R talk that ended badly. The next day he said he was still trying but that he needed space, so I pulled back (again).

The bad R talk was last Friday night, so it's been more than a week now. I have seen some positives, including --

1. The day after the bad R talk I texted him and asked if we could talk for a few minutes. He said no, and I told him that I would respect his request. He sent me a "thank you" text, and thanked me again later in the day at kid exchange.

2. We did another family activity last Sunday. We were together for 3 or 4 hours and had a lovely time. Later in the evening I texted him again and asked if he would be comfortable talking for a few minutes because I was worried. (He had threatened during the bad R talk on Friday night to call his attorney "first thing Monday morning.") He said he would call me in the morning and that I didn't need to worry "WVP". WVP stands for Wedding Vow Promise and is something that we invented when we were engaged to signal when we are especially committed to something. We haven't used it in years, and I was touched that he remembered.

3. We had a MC session on Tuesday that went ok. I explained that the underlying issue for me in all of our conflict is H's level of commitment (or lack thereof) to me. H says in the session and again afterward that he is committed to me and he wants me to know it. H asked when I would be free later in the day for him to call and check on me, which he did. He said that he was still processing what we'd talked about in MC but that he wants to talk about how to demonstrate commitment (and teamwork, which he feels like is missing).

4. On Wednesday afternoon he called me out of the blue to say hello and how much he appreciated my patience. That night, he put D7 to bed at my house while I was teaching a class. When I got home, he was asleep on my couch in his pajamas. I wondered momentarily if this was his way of telling me that he would stay the night if I asked, but I decided not to say anything. Instead, I thanked him for being more attentive the past few days. He again thanked me for my patience and asked if we could do something this weekend.

5. Last night while D7 was at a Halloween party we had our date. Initially, we were going to do dinner and a movie, but the movie we wanted to see was smack in the middle of the party and we wouldn't have had time to eat dinner either before or afterward. H asked if I really wanted to see the movie and I said no, that I would prefer to eat dinner and do something else so that we can spend time together and talk. So, we went to dinner and then shopping at the mall together. I tried to wrap things up and he said, "Why don't we have dessert first?" We ended up spending about 3.5 hours together -- great conversation and no R talk. At the end he said, "I had a good time. I'm glad we didn't go to the movies." Yay! for no withdrawal/avoidance on our date.

I'm feeling like we've moved forward this week.


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Hi very pleased to hear your positive news.

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I feel like we've crossed a threshold this week and are really in piecing. As in, H is actively working on the marriage, not just saying that he wants it to work.

For the first time in a LONG time (even before the S), I told H I needed something and he wasn't defensive. He didn't tell me he was doing the best he could. He didn't say, "I'll do it, but I don't want to." He said, "Yes, I can commit to that."

The backstory: Friday night was "my" night with D7 and we decided to throw a Halloween party for some of her friends before trick or treating. I had discussed this with H a few weeks ago and he said that D7 asked him to stay at his house and hand out candy. I asked if he felt left out and he said no, so I decided not to invite him to the party. However, earlier this week I found out that D7 had invited him and he was planning to come -- which left me in a bit of a pickle.

On the one hand, I wanted him there. I want us to be a family and spending the holidays together is an important part of that, and I didn't want D7 to miss seeing H on Halloween if possible. However, I also know that one of my triggers is feeling ignored by H in social situations. I didn't want his presence to turn my GAL activity into a reminder of how much I've been hurt by him in the past. I didn't want to have to work hard to enjoy my own party.

So, I asked him if he could work on showing me that he is committed by making me feel like I was the most important (adult) person at the party. I was prepared to draw a boundary and ask that he stay home as we had originally discussed if he said he couldn't do that.

But, he said yes. Without any hesitation. And he followed through. It wasn't amazing and it wasn't 100% of what I want, but it was leaps and bounds beyond anything I've gotten from him in a long time, probably close to a year.

We had lunch yesterday and he is just sounding so much more positive. He picked up on the same refrain from the MC, that we'll stumble but if we keep working we will make progress. He is starting to come out of his shell and tell me what he needs from me, other than space. I'm going to come back and post later when I have a little bit more time, because I may need some help figuring out how to demonstrate 180s.


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sounds promising. congrats. but the journey isn't over yet. you will need to put in the work for the rest of your lives regardless of how well it may or may not turn out. remember baby steps.


M40 XW35
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Papers del 10/3/14
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I wish I could love you and make you believe it
'Cause that's all you ever wanted
From me

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Thanks, Bravo. I am definitely proceeding cautiously. One of my big hang-ups is trust -- trusting that the positives are real and not manufactured, trusting that they will continue even as we fall back into the status quo (separation). Whatever this experience is good for, it's at least teaching me never to take this R for granted again.


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Amen to that!


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Was just reading your sitch. I'm so happy for you that things look better for your R. It's great to see that DB can make a difference. Please keep (cautiously) fighting!


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Elsa,

Looks like DB and MC are doing good for you and your H. I hope that you keep on your path and not let the stumbles keep you from reconciliation.

Keep up with the doing the hard work, I'm rooting for you.


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Thank you both for stopping by!

Things are continuing to improve over here. We had an incredibly powerful MC session on Tuesday where the MC challenged my H to accept responsibility for withdrawing due to hurt instead of treating me with love and grace. He said that he accepts responsibility, but I don't know if the full weight of that has sunk in yet. In the meantime, he is continuing to be more available to me and to be more open about his needs too.

I admit that I am still incredibly anxious and very distrusting of my H's intentions, though. I mean, the week before BD (after he had already made his plans to move out) he told me that he WASN'T planning to leave and that he was never going to hurt me again the way he had before. So, I'm (understandably, I think) gun-shy.

I told the MC that I am trying to let my H's words work for him and not against him. For example, my H told me a few weeks ago that he is committed to me. I told the MC that I am trying to trust that and when H says or does something that seems inconsistent with commitment to me I remind myself of what he said. The MC very adamantly said, "No Elsa, you need to ask Mr. Elsa* for clarification. You have to have these conversations." I turned to H and asked him if I could do that and have it really be okay -- because my impression is that he views that as challenging him, telling him he's not trying hard enough, or trying to control him. H said yes (as long as I don't do it at 10:30pm, which we all had a good laugh about). We ended up testing it out last night when I was struggling to trust something he said, and his response was perfect. He even told me, "That's what we're supposed to do -- clarify." I think the problem is that I've heard this before from H, but in reality I don't think it's his nature and I don't know that he's willing to fully embrace a different way to be in a relationship.

I have a ton of thoughts. I'll come back and post more later.

*I'm pretty sure he's Kristoff, but it's possible that he might be Hans so I'm going to avoid giving him a name for now. smile


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I just had an interesting conversation with H. He's on the West Coast for a conference this week, and he called this afternoon to check in as he promised he would.

H was telling me about his day and his plans for tomorrow (sharing details about his life! what a positive sign) and he mentioned that he is staying with his cousin and he will check into the hotel tomorrow. Apparently, the conference doesn't start until Sunday so these first few days are just for "vacation." Only he didn't mention that before now, and when I asked him a few weeks ago if he would be seeing his cousin during his trip, he'd said, "I don't know. Probably."

I really did not want to get into R talk while he was gone. That was a 180 that I really wanted to commit to. However, H sensed a change in my tone and asked me what was wrong. We are supposed to be working on emotional honesty (i.e., no rug sweeping) so I answered honestly. In addition to feeling misled about his plans, I told him that knowing that he has time to go on a vacation when he complains that he is too busy at work to make time for working on our R makes me feel like I'm not a priority (and work is just an excuse).

H stayed calm and didn't get too defensive. He apologized for giving me the wrong impression about his plans and said that he feels like he is trying to show me that I'm a priority in other ways, but he understands where I'm coming from. He also said that he thinks he should be able to spend a few days with his cousin, and I told him that I definitely agreed.

Then he asked me if I would forgive him for hurting me. I told him that I didn't know that he needed to be forgiven because I didn't think he'd done anything "wrong" per se, just that I was filtering what he did and said through my own issues. H asked if I would forgive him anyway because he wants to make forgiveness a more prominent part of our R. He said that we've never tried asking for and giving forgiveness in the moment, and he thinks it will help.

So, I agreed to forgive him. Then I asked him to forgive me for disrupting the calm between us, and he said that he forgives me too.

H then went on to say that he feels like we have been doing really well lately and that's where we "need" to be, and he really hopes that I can see this as just a bump in the road. I told him that it feels very minor on my end, but since I don't know exactly how he feels there's always a little bit of anxiety there for me. H promised that he was okay and said that he felt it was a good sign that we were able to talk out an issue in the moment and not fall apart. (The whole exchange only lasted for about 10 minutes.)

So, a great exchange but I'd be lying if I said that I didn't feel apprehensive that he is just placating me again until he drops another bomb. How in the world am I supposed to get over that feeling?


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Elsa, so great to hear things moving in a positive direction for you and Mr Elsa. I think it is completely normal for you to be feeling apprehensive. Trust that go away with time as you both learn to interact differently and trust each other again. It sounds like you are both working hard to make this happen. Keep going!


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Thanks for the encouragement, G. We stumbled a bit last week and are still trying to find our footing, but we're both still working hard.

The stumbling block that we keep coming back to is this:

1. H does or says something GOOD that is contrary to something he said or did during the past year. (For example, H agrees to forgive me for some minor transgression.)

2. I accept and appreciate the change but then start to worry that I'm just being placated (because that's what H did right before he left).

3. I reach out for explicit confirmation or reaffirmation that what I'm seeing or hearing is real. H either plays along for a while OR immediately pushes back. Either way, it ends up blowing up in my face.

Now, when I explained this to H last night, he said, "Then why do you keep sabotaging us?" My response was honest -- (1) I don't know how to build trust without seeking the reaffirmation, and (2) I feel blamed by his perspective, because I don't think he's fully accepted his role in the interaction when he says that I'm the one doing the "sabotaging."

H has never apologized to me for lying before he left. I mean, he's said that he was sorry for hurting my feelings, but that he didn't know another way so he doesn't regret it and can't promise* that he won't do it again. I think I need him to accept wrongdoing in order to move forward. I mean, how do we re-build a marriage when one spouse thinks it's okay to lie about Big Stuff if he sees no other options.

I told H last night that I can't see us reconciling without that piece. H said that we could talk about it at MC on Thursday. In the meantime, do you think I am asking too much?

(*H has a really high standard for promises and won't make one at all unless he's absolutely certain he'll be able to keep it.)


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Hey, Elsa. Seems like (3) is a cheese less tunnel, no? Somehow I think you are going to have to find it within yourself to trust this process and not look to him to reaffirm. If reconciliation is your goal, then think hard about how you can let go of some of your expectations (like needing an apology) so as not to create an obstacle that your H can't climb over. Those things are under your control. Don't leave it to your H to figure out ways to get over his obstacles.

I wonder if there is any sense moving your thread over to piecing? There's not as much traffic there but there are a few people (vets included) who are a little further along than you and they might have experienced these feelings and figured out ways to deal with them.


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I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, I don't want reconciliation at all costs. I need my dignity far more than I need him, and I don't know that I can keep my dignity and stay with someone who doesn't accept responsibility for lying. I'm not saying that it's definitely a dealbreaker or that I'm about to give my H an ultimatum, but it's important enough that I'm not ready to write it off.

I've thought about posting in piecing but H and I are still in a pretty tenuous place and I don't know that we're going to stay in piecing, plus what you said about less traffic. Maybe I will add a "piecing" note to my next thread title?

ETA: In looking at your post, I think I conflated two issues. I *think* I can find a way not to seek confirmation and to find trust in other ways. I don't know that I can or should let go of my expectation viz a viz an apology.

Last edited by Elsa; 11/18/14 09:46 PM.

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Well, the MC came down on the side of honesty. We'll see if an apology ever materializes. At the moment, I'm keeping my expectations low to avoid disappointment.

Despite seeing some real progress, I've felt profoundly defeated recently. It's becoming clearer and clearer that our long term goals are compatible -- I'm ready to live that marriage NOW. What is the point of going through this terrible limbo period where we both adjust to interim (and incompatible) needs when the long-term (and compatible) needs are entirely different?

Meanwhile, H still refuses to spend the night with me. We had the perfect opportunity this weekend (D7 was at a sleepover) but he said that it would "violate a boundary" for him. I didn't challenge him on this (and he did thank me later for being "gracious" so my choice was worth it), but isn't a boundary supposed to protect him from hurt? What is he protecting himself from by not spending the night? If it's just some arbitrary line, it seems like he's putting his need to be "right" ahead of our relationship -- which is exactly what he has accused me of doing in the past.

He is coming over tonight so that we can talk about Thanksgiving plans. I wish we could spend the holiday together, and this weekend he took some of the steps I needed him to in order for me to be comfortable with that, but I don't think he's ready for me to be around his family yet (or him around mine). Right now, the thought of spending it with him is almost as bad as the thought of spending it without him. Can I just pretend that Thanksgiving doesn't exist this year?


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elsa,
i get the frustration, but, it's not your place to make determinations about his boundaries. you would certainly not appreciate him doing that. it might not make sense to you or me, but we don't have the right to tell someone else how to feel. he may feel pressured. i'm not saying that you are doing any of those things but what would he feel. empathize! and i get it, i do. but the don't forget that patience is required more now than at any time. you can do it! i believe in you!


M40 XW35
M11 T15
S9 D5
Bomb 6/3/14
Papers del 10/3/14
D final 12/5/14

I wish I could love you and make you believe it
'Cause that's all you ever wanted
From me

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Last year I spent Thanksgiving waiting for the hammer to fall. I cried a LOT, even though I was totally surrounded by family. This year I will be with friends or alone, but I have cool GAL plans and no tears on the horizon. If you'd told me last year that this is where I'd be this year, I would never have believed I could feel good about it, but I really, really do.

It's all in how you frame it.

Enjoy your holiday. smile


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Bravo, thanks for the 2x4 -- I needed to hear that. His feelings are his feelings and I shouldn't try to argue against them, if only in my head.

Maybell, I cried during T-giving last year too -- H picked a fight with me while I was making food, and I burst into tears and then had to face his family when it was obvious that I'd been crying. I actually don't think that we would have a repeat of that this year, because we are in a different place now and we know what's at stake -- but I still don't know if I'm ready to do it.

We had R talk last night (at his request) but we didn't talk about T-giving. It was not a great conversation -- I really felt like he just didn't want to be there, and he wasn't in a validating mood -- but it ended well enough. (H even tucked me into bed and held me for a little while before he left.) First thing this am, he sent me a text that thanked me for being gracious again. That would be the 2nd time in a row he's texted the morning after R talk. I know he is trying to show me that he's not in complete withdrawal. I can see that he is trying to breath some life back into this marriage.

He just came to pick up D7 for the night and asked if we could talk again tomorrow night. We are now spending an hour or more together at least every other day. I feel like that's a pace at which we can make some sustainable progress.


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R talks are nice, but what are you two doing to have fun? To feel closer rather than just jawing the thing to death?


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She believed she could, so she did.
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