Every WAS fears that the marriage they left, in which they were very Unhappy, will return if they return.
IOW, your w fears that you will revert to your old self as soon as she gives OM up. consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
You have to give it time, & you have to be consistent, and you've done neither.
your comment is why I have repeatedly commented that the MC is on the same page as MWD. She tells me that I am 100% a different man then she met a year ago. However, all these changes have taken place mostly in the last couple of weeks. Now she says I need to continue changing shut my mouth and remain consistent . She also had told me that I need to be patient and give it time.
So look at the title of your thread and get back to YOU.
What are your 180s? What are your GAL?
my 180's include ; -staying Calm - not asking 100 judgmental questions -NOT PURSUING, ALLOWING HER SPACE ALLOWING HER TO COME TO ME
The rest are habits - keeping my home office neat and clean - helping more with cleaning the house - not allowing S16 to be disrespectful - staying clam on the outside even if I am a wreck on the inside
i fail somewhat in the GAL category because of work, and having to spend more time with S16 and helping him learn to drive etc. But I do go every morning M-F to the gym with my friends versus going with WW I am going to go on the weekends without her at least while OM is around. Going to spend more time on the weekend out of the house fishing hiking etc I have told my friends to let me know when they are going to concerts etc..because I want to go with them. Not rushing home because she's here. Doing more business travel then I have done in the past. Still trying to work on the GAL.
PLUS THE MC thinks I need to be home every night until OM leaves the country.
You cannot detach without GAL, and we hammer the GAL for one reason only....
it works.
This is where I get stuck. I thought that being around without " hanging around" keeps me in the " minds eye" .
see if this story helps illustrate the point some of us are making. It's a true story.
I grew up with a neighbor who was a retired Army Colonel. He had been a POW for several years, in Vietnam.
He and his wife had 5 kids. Years before they moved into our neighborhood, the Colonel had had an affair with some OW.
How did I, a young 17 y/o girl know that the Colonel had had an A?
Oh, I knew b/c everyone knew that b/c "Mrs Colonel" made sure we all knew, so we would not think he was such a great guy.
There were times I wanted to ask the Colonel about his POW experiences. But Mrs. C- would steer the topic away. I truly believed for years, that she was protecting him from a bad memory.
Then l learned that she simply didn't like him getting that type of attention. At the time we knew the family, the Colonel was kind, funny, handsome, strong, and really just a great guy. Yes, we DID admire him.
In contrast, She was a bitter woman, with a snide remark ready for her h at every turn. From how he grilled the meat to a reference letter he wrote for my h, she could NOT give that man a compliment to save her soul. She never praised him in front of her kids or us and she would undermine any compliment others would give him. In short, she lived to make him pay. I'm not exaggerating. She was NOT kind to him at all. I guess She never let him forget what SHE had endured.
Today, only 1 of their 5 kids is married and it's his 2nd or 3rd marriage. The others are all single. 2 never married, and the other 2 keep on getting married repeatedly.
The choice that Mrs C- made was the worst of all choices.
She could have divorced him. She could have gone to counseling and therapy and learned to forgive him. But instead she made the worst but most tempting choice; she stayed married AND stayed miserable.
She never let Colonel forget his sins.
She held it over his head like the sword of Damacles.
She threw it in his face (or threatened to) every time they fought.
She did NOT Forgive him and she did not even try to. Not in a serious humbling way.
Ironically, from where we sat, from what WE saw, HE was the victim and she was the wrongdoer....she was not a woman we sympathized with.
She should have let him go when she found out about the A; or as soon as she realized she could not forgive him; or she should have learned how to forgive.
She could have left her children a beautiful legacy. She COULD have taught and passed on to them, the concepts and practices of true forgiveness, real redemption, deep love and full commitment.
Instead, she passed onto them suspicions, distrust, cynicism, bitterness and big time grudge holding. She did not think he "deserved" forgiveness -- so she overlooked how many others were affected by her choice not to forgive.
I wish she had heard what I heard a few years back, which was "Holding onto anger, to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire,
----- ----- ----- to get smoke in their eyes."
Emma, please don't take offense. But does any of this resonate with you?
Ox, you?
Great true story.
Yes, of course. But I will tell you I do forgive my wife. I would never ever bring up this entire nightmare to her as long as I live once we reconciled.
What people got wrong on some of the other boards was they kept saying that because I was trying so hard to save my marriage my boys would see me as weak...
The opposite is true, my S21 told me I was a noble and good man for trying to keep the family together. myS16 feels his mother is in the middle of a nervousness breakdown, he needs to see I won't thro her out or divorce her. He has been through terrible anxiety issues, even his therapists say that any harsh moves against his mother might make him think I would do the same to him if his anxiety or depression ever returns.
I am full of forgiveness..
This thread has helped me let go of my Anger ( which a lot of was directed at myself)
W 53 H 51, S 16, S 21 33 years M 28 DD 3 Feb 11, 2014 S21 and His Fiancée move in with us 8/14 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...965#Post2477965
Your boys will chose to see you as weak or strong based upon HOW you try to save your m.
If they see a man who treats himself with respect, honors his own boundaries, and will fix himself , then you can attempt to save your marriage with honor and dignity and your boys can be proud.
If you make these passive aggressive attempts and be appear as a cuckold, then, they will lose respect
And one concept you truly don't understand is what a boundary is and how to enforce it.
I plan on reading the book Boundaries this weekend.
Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23
And forgiveness isn't " you stopped your A, we will never talk about it again"
You both need some major major changes if you don't want this fiasco happening again. It's not a let it be done and pretend like it never happened sort of situation .
NO ARGUMENT HERE. The MC said once we get to that point is when the work truly begins!
If you make these passive aggressive attempts and be appear as a cuckold, then, they will lose respect
This is where I get totaly exhausted. How can I live in the same house with her with my S16 and soon S21 and his Fiancee21 and not come across as a Jerk but at the same time not be a cuckold.
For example last night I stayed in the MB when she got home I waited for her to come upstairs we talked for a few minutes. When she brought up OM I said, Please stop I want to hear about what you thought of the movie
This is my true sticking point. She says she has seen incredible change in me but I don't want to blow it!!
I have three sessions left with Chuck I think I will call to schedule them. But in the meantime any thoughts are appreciated.
W 53 H 51, S 16, S 21 33 years M 28 DD 3 Feb 11, 2014 S21 and His Fiancée move in with us 8/14 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...965#Post2477965
Unfortunately you're in a tough spot, Ox, b/c your wife very likely doesn't take your stated boundaries seriously, based on your past behaviors and unwillingness to enforce boundaries. So when you say "I do not want to hear you talk about OM; we are still married," it goes in one ear and out the other and she comes back and tests you on this again and again and again.
All you can really do is enforce your boundary, and show 100% consistency in it. It's like with kids -- you can stick to your guns 19 out of 20 times, but if it's not 20 out of 20 you've pretty much blown it.
With my wife, I had a pretty good track record already of "saying what I mean and meaning what I say," so I really only had the lay the boundaries once or twice and she abided by them. With you, you have this "passive-aggressive" history with your wife, and some dysfunction there, so it's going to take a longer stretch of being consistent I think.
Unfortunately you're in a tough spot, Ox, b/c your wife very likely doesn't take your stated boundaries seriously, based on your past behaviors and unwillingness to enforce boundaries. So when you say "I do not want to hear you talk about OM; we are still married," it goes in one ear and out the other and she comes back and tests you on this again and again and again.
All you can really do is enforce your boundary, and show 100% consistency in it. It's like with kids -- you can stick to your guns 19 out of 20 times, but if it's not 20 out of 20 you've pretty much blown it.
With my wife, I had a pretty good track record already of "saying what I mean and meaning what I say," so I really only had the lay the boundaries once or twice and she abided by them. With you, you have this "passive-aggressive" history with your wife, and some dysfunction there, so it's going to take a longer stretch of being consistent I think.
Starsky
Thanks Starsky, I think your right, I am trying to do the best I can with boundaries.
Part of the Passive aggressive was when I would get mad at her and tell her I was kicking her out etc, knowing full well I could not.
I have really bit my tongue over and over the last week or so. Its just that I have to move from anxiety to calmness before I speak.
For example today I saw she did not deposit her expense check yet. I emailed her to remind her. I started getting anxious thinking she took the money for OM. She just got back to me that it should be at home and I should deposit it... Had this been two weeks ago I would be on the phone all nervous and accusatory..
Much earlier this morning mentioned I on another thread (SHO) that I have not said I love you to my wife in a while, as per DB. I also have not been saying it back when she says it to me.
I know the reasons behind this and I even mentioned how WW once said "I am so sick of those words" . OM says them so much it makes me sick. You say it , I can't take it anymore.
I heard her loud and clear.
Now this morning she kissed me on the mouth and said "good-bye, have a good day I will see you later, I Love You" It just came naturally "I love you too"
I think if I bit my tongue here it would look manipulative.
W 53 H 51, S 16, S 21 33 years M 28 DD 3 Feb 11, 2014 S21 and His Fiancée move in with us 8/14 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...965#Post2477965
see if this story helps illustrate the point some of us are making. It's a true story.
I grew up with a neighbor who was a retired Army Colonel. He had been a POW for several years, in Vietnam.
He and his wife had 5 kids. Years before they moved into our neighborhood, the Colonel had had an affair with some OW.
How did I, a young 17 y/o girl know that the Colonel had had an A?
Oh, I knew b/c everyone knew that b/c "Mrs Colonel" made sure we all knew, so we would not think he was such a great guy.
There were times I wanted to ask the Colonel about his POW experiences. But Mrs. C- would steer the topic away. I truly believed for years, that she was protecting him from a bad memory.
Then l learned that she simply didn't like him getting that type of attention. At the time we knew the family, the Colonel was kind, funny, handsome, strong, and really just a great guy. Yes, we DID admire him.
In contrast, She was a bitter woman, with a snide remark ready for her h at every turn. From how he grilled the meat to a reference letter he wrote for my h, she could NOT give that man a compliment to save her soul. She never praised him in front of her kids or us and she would undermine any compliment others would give him. In short, she lived to make him pay. I'm not exaggerating. She was NOT kind to him at all. I guess She never let him forget what SHE had endured.
Today, only 1 of their 5 kids is married and it's his 2nd or 3rd marriage. The others are all single. 2 never married, and the other 2 keep on getting married repeatedly.
The choice that Mrs C- made was the worst of all choices.
She could have divorced him. She could have gone to counseling and therapy and learned to forgive him. But instead she made the worst but most tempting choice; she stayed married AND stayed miserable.
She never let Colonel forget his sins.
She held it over his head like the sword of Damacles.
She threw it in his face (or threatened to) every time they fought.
She did NOT Forgive him and she did not even try to. Not in a serious humbling way.
Ironically, from where we sat, from what WE saw, HE was the victim and she was the wrongdoer....she was not a woman we sympathized with.
She should have let him go when she found out about the A; or as soon as she realized she could not forgive him; or she should have learned how to forgive.
She could have left her children a beautiful legacy. She COULD have taught and passed on to them, the concepts and practices of true forgiveness, real redemption, deep love and full commitment.
Instead, she passed onto them suspicions, distrust, cynicism, bitterness and big time grudge holding. She did not think he "deserved" forgiveness -- so she overlooked how many others were affected by her choice not to forgive.
I wish she had heard what I heard a few years back, which was "Holding onto anger, to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire,
----- ----- ----- to get smoke in their eyes."
Emma, please don't take offense. But does any of this resonate with you?
Ox, you?
Thanks for the story 25 but the thing is, you talk about this woman from your perspective as an outsider. You don't know what life was like for her inside that marriage for her. How do you know what she threw in his face every time they fought? Were you there? Did he tell you this? Did you ever talk to her about her life? I'd be interested to hear her perspective on what she endured with her "great guy" husband.
Sorry for not answering your question, I try to post while I am I between appointments and occasionally I miss a post. I try not to avoid anyone on purpose.
The truth is I think my wife at some point prior to 2011 had decided she was leaving when S16 graduated high school. I think it really was 50/50 partially to escape from his severe anxiety and depression. ( thank god that's in control) the other was to leave me.
It has begun to be clear as day that she was blaming me for her unhappiness. She had an opportunity when she was in high school to be on broadway. Her father cut that off, her mom had been a singer and had a few affairs and he blamed the " show-biz" life. She wanted to go to NYU for theater..no, Syracuse for communications..no...and so on.
She ended up in something she liked but always felt there was more.
Every problem in her life became my fault...I deserved some of it there was stuff I did I am ashamed of ( not infidelity).
She befriended our so called Tour Guide and I noticed he targeted her. He and his long time live in stayed with us for a week and he would knock my kids out of the way to get her attention.
She ate it up.
Then S18 had a girlfriend of a different religion, my wife and I did not agree how to handle it, believe me my approach was right. This OM attacked me sided with the wife and the fun began.
Anyhow, after she ran away she missed my S16 and S21, she wanted to move back home for an in home separation. Which we did. We eventually cancelled the divorce but she just can't let go of OM.
I had an interesting meeting with the MC tonight.
I believe that the changes my wife has seen are a combination of the forums and of my MC. A lot of what my MC tells me about behaviors and actions line up exactly with DB and this site.
She also told me to Stop renting space in my head to the OM .....where have we heard that before....DB maybe?
Anyway, now the only thing my WW is afraid of is that the second she dumps OM the old me returns...
I guess it will take time for her to realize the old me is dead...
Thanks for your post, Ox. I know this story because you've told it dozens of times, but it's all about your history. I asked what you thought her intentions are TODAY. But it doesn't matter because Db is you should not be focusing on her just on you.
