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#2472083 07/24/14 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sparky
Going dark is the chance to work on you and to allow the spouse that left you to go through the journey they need to go through. If you start butting into that when they have made it clear that they don't want to be with you, then you come off as someone who is not honoring their request. You are short-circuiting the journey they have to go through to work out what is going on inside themselves.

There was obviously something very wrong that made them decide they wanted out in the first place. Oftentimes, it is probably the case that they are depressed and they have lost faith that anything can ever change. That patterns are set and are not reversible. It's a sign of depression to feel this kind of hopelessness.

One thing they knew for sure was that they did not want you in the picture. When people are depressed and confused about their identity like many people who request separations are, they become cognitively disorganized and impulsive in their choices. And when you are coming at them trying to make them stay with you, it just feels bad and like there's a pressure there to stay where they were.

And they don't want to stay where they were. They are wanting big changes. And if you stay the same as you always have been, and are unwilling to allow them to go on the journey that they need, or you are setting agendas about how they need to be, you just look like a controlling wench or [censored]. You become a representation of what they were trying to get away from.

As long as you keep pressuring them, you don't stand a chance. You will remain the embodiment of those bad feelings they are having. You will be something to avoid. You will make it very easy for them to continue to project or blame you for the bad feelings that reside inside of them.

If they are alone with those bad feelings still lingering inside, and you are nowhere in the vicinity, then perhaps they will begin to see that the pain they were feeling was really about something unhealed inside of them rather than something about you. You need to cut that link between bad feelings and you.

If you want there to ever be a future between you and your spouse, I believe you have to let your spouse take the journey that is rightfully theirs, even if they way they are communicating that to you [censored]. Even if it hurts like nothing else you've ever felt. If you love them, you have to let them go through that.

And you can't keep looking over to see if they are done yet. It's suffocating. Instead, this is your chance to learn new things. Walk around in your feelings and see what is unhealed in you that makes it so easy for you to feel crazy about this crappy situation in which you find yourself.

You have the gift of time now, and the focusing energy of pain. Don't feel all of this pain without getting your money's worth. Surrender to what is really happening. Face it head on. Summer in the MLC area says that you should stay dark UNLESS your spouse initiates a contact.

For me, there have been two main contacts. First, he called me several weeks ago, and we ended up talking for over an hour. Then, he told me that he wanted to meet with me to tell me some "news." At first, I did not meet with him, because I was not ready to feel more pain. I knew the news wasn't going to be good. But last week, I finally decided to recontact him and tell him that I was ready to meet to hear his news.

His news was that he was seeing the woman I had at first feared he was seeing. But I met when I was good and ready, and it was actually a really productive and authentic contact. I was ready to be calm and not plead and hear his news. And I think that even though he is with another woman, this contact was a good one, even though it was about painful stuff.

When I allow my husband to be the initiator, then he has to know that he wanted to see me. And from being dark, I, Sparky, have actually become a bit mysterious to my husband - which is hilarious, becase I'm the least mysterious person you will ever meet. And he was intrigued. And I liked it. And I'm going to keep doing this because I thing that not only is it "working," but I'm using all this time to grow as I never thought I would.

The worst thing that ever happened to me has been the best thing that ever happened to me. And even though I still feel a lot of pain, I mean that sincerely.


Here is the link to my first thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...983#Post2462983

I found this post which I found helpful and hope that other newcomers will find helpful as well. Going on two months of DBing now and yes, it has gotten easier. The shock is starting to wear off but the pain--ever so real and inescapable--persists. I'm in a better place now than I was two months ago.


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Currently in San Diego and going on week 4. I've decided to extend my trip another two weeks. No, my H did not take the news well. The space I've created between us has been the best decision I've made thus far. I had no idea what to expect being this far away. Well...actually, I expected the worst. I'm glad I left though because I truly needed some space to think things through. Not being around him helped with the pulling back.

I was struggling with defining which behaviors lead to my cheeseless tunnels and which behaviors needed a 180. It turns out that being away has helped me "go dark" so to speak. This was completely unplanned and a happy accident at the same time. By being away, I learned to focus on my feelings and really feel through them. Each day I would reflect on the things he told me that was wrong in the M. It required an immense amount of humility and prayer to step outside myself and into his shoes but I did it. I discovered there were and still are many things that I need to change about myself. I'm focusing on these changes and little by little I'm gaining back my confidence and I'm not so reliant on my H reactions.

GAL has been a catalyst for going dark. If I didn't get out and do something then my mind would fixate on the pain. Of course being in a beautiful city with almost always perfect weather made the transition easier. At first, it sucked doing things without him but I pushed myself anyway. Slowly, my mind would shift from him to what I was doing and I was okay again. The more I did this, the easier it became to do more of it. Before I knew it, I was having a life. A real one. One without my H. It took the focus off my failing M and my H undesirable/unpleasant demeanor and onto taking care of myself.

We still have a joint account. So he gets to see all of my expenses while I'm here. I've gotten a couple of phone calls reprimanding me about my expenses. Mind you, this is the money he left for me as part of easing his own guilty conscience for taking 75% of what was in our joint and his direct deposit onto his newly opened account. No matter how unfair it felt to me at that time I did not lose my cool but reassured him until he calmed down. Then, I pulled back some more.

The more I pulled back the more he initiated contact. Even when it's just to yell at me about something as small as not answering my phone right away. Finally, the man who has been so cold and distant was starting to show some softness. Yeah, his yelling was not the response I would have liked but it did reveal a lot more about his current state of mind than maybe he wanted to. He let his guard down, gave in to his emotion and I got to witness it. It felt good to feel a little bit in control of things again without having to exert any pressure on him. I gave him enough rope to hang himself. How about that?

He became curious and friendly but unsettled. He began to probe...asking what was going on and why he feels like there's something I'm withholding from him. His insecurity was very transparent. Finally, I said in a calm tone that I was needing more time away to see if I can find a job here and a place to live. This confirmed his suspicion and his tone got softer and solemn as if I had just given him the worst news of his life.

I'm not sure if by doing that I had verbally dropped the rope. We continued to talk and it lasted a good 35 minutes. We finally discussed how to broach the topic with the children once they return from summer vacation. I told him that I would be there as a support for my kids. He got upset and voiced that he did not arrive at this place on his own. I wanted to argue back but didn't. He was telling the truth about that part but he still refuses to see that I was explicit about salvaging the M. And yes, it took him calling my divorce bluff for me to see that things needed changing.

We're still on differing opinions about how we got to where we are in the M and he still refuses to accept that I want to stay and work on our M. A couple of questions...

1.) I know not to bring up R talks unless he initiates but when he does it's not productive. He's still doing the finger-pointing and not really accepting his part in the problem. How do I handle this? I was thinking of saying "I will be glad to discuss this with you in a neutral environment where we can both feel safe and open to share our thoughts and feelings. But, it will not happen outside of the counseling office."

2.) When he starts to ask questions about what my plans are (moving on, S, and D) how much info is good enough and how much is too much? Is honesty the best policy while being dark?

3.) Can/should I maintain a cool interest while in the dark period?


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I found this post on another DBer's thread about WAW and friend-zoning their LBH. Most of what she says is really giving men a peek into a woman's mind and she's spot on. W want/need to respect their H as a leader in the home. If she demotes him then she has lost respect for him. Why would a H settle for anything less than what he already has a right to...by her choosing to marry him in the first place?

Anyway here's the the post.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
quick question though on the indeffrence.... ive never turned down her request to talk, should I shut it down, no more talking with her unless its about the kids...not be there for her emotionally until things change?


It depends on where you are on this journey. And also, everyone's stitch may vary just a bit. For example, if the couple are still living together, and the W starts talking at the dinner table or whenever the family are gathered together, I would be careful about cutting her off (as long as she's not being disrespectful and the subject matter is not about the R or inappropriate for the kids). This time with the children should be pleasant and gives you an opportunity to shine.

If living together, or not, and she begins whining, playing the victim, being disrespectful, b*tchy, demanding, bossy, etc., then you shut her down right then and there. If you don't know how to shut her down.......then you immediately leave her presence. But you do not tolerate her giving you a cr@p bath.

If not living together, and she calls to just talk about herself, or try's to manipulate you into doing something for her, end the conversation. (If it becomes a habit with her, You could even give a slight hint of sounding bored at her self centerness. ). After all, she gave you up, remember. You don't owe her. The only thing you have to discuss is about the kids, and if need be....you direct the conversation back to the subject of your children.

If she initiates the conversation, and as long as she is speaking politely and softly, and being civil, I think you should listen. (As long as it doesn't get to be all about her life and her problems too much, or not getting nosy about yours). If you see it is about to take a wrong turn and her emotions are getting ugly or it gets on the R, then change the subject or use the nosy neighbor method. If she makes a "request" to talk, be cautious. It usually means a R talk, or something serious. Just be on your toes till you can see what it's about. Use common sense with this.

It teaches her how she can talk to you and what you will not not tolerate. If she starts asking questions about you (especially if you are separated or she's brought up D)....she learns she is trespassing into your private territory. She doesn't get the answers she was after. It frustrates her how you can just smile, or give your little low chuckle and say goodbye or turn and leave her hanging.

She learns she gets no place with horsey behavior. She has to act like a lady before you give her the time of day. She can't dictate or boss you around. She can't even complain about you, b/c you don't linger around to listen to it. If she gets mad and throws a fit, she has to do it privately b/c you won't be her audience. She also learned she has to live with the circumstances of her choices and not go crying to you (of all people) and expect sympathy. Which really surprises her.

Yes, she gets frustrated, but what really gets her is how you just keep standing tall, and in control. She can't seem to ruffle your feathers regardless of her behavior, even when she starts spewing,, you call her out about how unattractive that behavior makes her look and then you leave her standing alone.

When she gets to the point she can talk nicely, respectfully, and politely, you seem patient and not in a hurry to end the conversation. Heck, you even validate some thongs she says! So, when she starts thinking of a possible reconciliation, she will approach you in the right manner/attitude. Funny how all this has changed her outlook of you as a man. She had doubted your strength. She wasn't attracted to you. She sure didn't respect you b/c she used to be able to speak anyway she wanted and you just took it like a beaten down dog. But no longer! And now she finds herself beginning to not only see you differently, but her own feelings seem to be changing.

Now this is all from the woman's POV, of course. Women have always used their mouth as a weapon. They expect men to be stronger. That's why they lose respect for the man they can beat down by the words they speak.

Does this answer your question?





Is there a male version of Sandi out there to chime in for the other team...seriously? What about when a WAH wants to friend zone their W. Does this quote apply? I mean there's definitely a difference in thought processes, right? Or, am I incorrect in this?

Can anyone bring Sandi in? I'd rather not hijack Oad's thread anymore than it already has. grin


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Okay, so we finally submitted all the documents needed for final loan approval. I forwarded him my documents so that he could attach his and send it all at once. I was hoping that before he sent the docs to the lender that he would CC me on it thus showing that he has nothing to hide but he didn't. No surprise there. frown

I think I may have blown it the other day when he asked why we couldn't talk about my plans. It confused me at first because we haven't set any boundaries. We went to counseling so he could vent and let his decision (it's not working out, he doesn't feel the same way for me, he no longer wants to be married...etc.) be officially known to the C. Then I packed my bags and left for my trip the next day. We haven't talked about the S papers or me signing them or D until the other day.

I told him I had an appt. and would be available to three way call to the insurance company for a homeowner's quote after my appt. He asked what the appt. was for but didn't respond to his text. Later that day he asked what the appt was for again so I told him that I just had to take care of something. The following day he called frustrated (probably from things piling up at work) and flat out said "I feel like there's something you're not telling me." and it's something big and I'm gonna be hit on the head with it with no warning." So I admitted that I was looking for a job here and possibly a place to live.

I can't remember how we got to the topic of D but we did. As I began to share a little bit of my tentative plans I realize I was discussing the future but without him in it and I was using phrases like "once the D is final this is what I will have to..." He remained quite but attentive and acquiescent. Even though the topics were not the ones I wanted to talk about, it felt good to get it out in the open. Perhaps this was my "opening the cage door" attempt and it worked...I hope. My DB coach says to show him a cooperative, non-controlling, compromising CMF. Since he's been on my back about signing the S papers, I opted for this route until I can speak w/a attorney about the S papers.

Oh...I got sidetracked. This is where I think I may have pushed him away. After I shared my plans he asked why we couldn't talk just talk about it. I wanted to scream "because you're not sharing anything about you and your plans j@ck@ss! So, why should I let you in on mine?!" They were just thoughts and that's where they stayed. The best thing I could muster was "I'm doing my best to honor your space and privacy and was hoping there would be reciprocity in that." He said "Oh, alright" in a "I guess, whatever attitude."

Yesterday he texted me to let me know that our dog is back safely in the shelter. I said "thank you" and he replied with "you're welcome." And then I tested the waters with the close-ended text "was work okay today?" to see if he would respond and maybe expound. He answered with "same as it has been."

Now that we have no excuse to remain on joint accounts, I've been thinking about moving my money into my individual account but I'm uncertain on how to best approach this. Should I just move it without telling him or should I give him a heads up before doing so? Before he opened up his own acct and transferred money in there and redirected his paycheck he did tell me that's what he was going to do. I don't plan to remove my name from the joint quite yet since there are still outstanding charges that need to clear. However, I would like to be able to spend my money without him monitoring me.

What's would be the best way to communicate this? I feel by calling him I'd be pestering him. We've communicated just about every other day this week on the phone. If I text then it may set him off and initiate a phone confrontation from him. By emailing, he may glance over it and not look at it again. He hasn't responded to any of the emails I've sent personal or business. He claims that things have been so busy at work that by the time he gets home he doesn't have the energy to siphon through his emails.

Thoughts anyone?


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Maybe an FYI email: FYI, I will be moving the money from the joint account into my individual account soon. I'll make sure to leave enough to cover the pending transactions, then I'll move the balance after they've cleared. I appreciate that we can communicate about these steps so no one is caught off guard.

I mean, he knows this is happening, so just do it. He may be upset but if he is that's good for two reasons. One, it means he is still emotionally engaged. And two, it gives you a chance to showcase your ability to validate and respond in a confident, detached, calm, sensitive, and compassionate tone despite his reaction.

Keep it going. Don't pursue but don't slam the door shut either!


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BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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Thanks Zues! I appreciate your response and insight. It's amazing how much clearer my head is after receiving insight from others on here.

Originally Posted By: Zues126
I appreciate that we can communicate about these steps so no one is caught off guard.


Great validating statement! I had not thought of it. eek One of my biggest pitfalls is validating and empathizing. I can get so caught up in doing what I have my mind set to that I don't consider how he may feel/respond to it. So one-tracked mind...it's a bad habit but I'm training.

Hope that you're sitch is going well or at least that you are doing well. Detaching without trying to slam the door is tricky but we can do it! Thanks to the help from our fellow DBers.


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Yeah I have moved out of square one alright and it's some scary stuff!

It's looking like some big changes coming up in August. We're closing on the new house, my 14 year old has decided to live with his biological father, and I'm considering on staying in CA.

I was wondering what the opinion is on making major life changing decisions. I think I read somewhere and (I don't know which book because I've read so much in the past two months) not to make any major decisions right now. However, from what I understand my actions are what H will be paying attention to and not my words so...

I fly back to VA the second week of August. I have a three week window to get my son packed and off to his dad in NH before school starts. And then, I can take my daughter and drive across the country back to CA. We can stay with family until I find a job and my own place to stay. My motivation for moving back? Well, it would be a move back to my home state and be closer to my bro. I won't mention all the small stuff because they're just the icing on the cake.

My only reason for staying in VA is so that my son can finish off high school in one school. I would stay just so he can continue on to high school with the rest of his friends. I wanted to afford him the opportunity to stay in one school instead of jumping from school to school (like I did due to the military) but he seems excited to be with his other family. So, I want to give him that chance.

Should I stay in VA and hold out for reconciliation or is there a possibility for reconciliation after I move away? It seems like the answer is right under my nose but I'm having a hard time with this one. Would this be perceived as running away or perhaps closing the door shut? I've shared with H my plans to find a job here and a place to stay. He has not expressed any opposing thoughts. As a matter of fact he makes it a point to ask each time we talk how the job search is going.

Is this something I should share with him to see what his opinions are? I mean it would be a 180--I think. He told me once that I just go out and do whatever I want and not consider him or his feelings. I'm not sure if now would be a good time to apply this. It feels as if I'd be asking for reassurance somehow and I know that's a no-no. Prior to leaving I was thinking of handing him the S papers signed. This is another 180 that my DB coach had suggested. Again, it feels as though I'd be adding another nail to the coffin.

I'd appreciate any insights from the vets.


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Okay, this is going to take forever to read through. I want you to understand why I said what I did about knowing the truth. It's not about catching him in an A, but to know if he is still lying to you. Has he been lying throughout the M? Has he continued in some sort of A's all this time?

Listen, I have very personal, up-close and life long experiences with chronic liars and physiological liars. I'm talking about living with each type and experiencing the pain their lies inflict. If he is either one, you need to know what you have on your hands. If he is a serial cheater, you still need to know. B/c honestly, I would tell anyone to get as far away from it as possible. I won't say they can't change, but they don't want to b/c it works for them. I have not seen it happen in the ones I know personally.

So I see you are getting the advice about not snooping, etc. Usually, I agree. But this is finding out who and what kind of man you have married! At this point (and I have not read all your threads yet) I just feel it is more involved than a resent or present affair. It's about knowing what is truth.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Truthfully, I have no idea who he is right now and I have been questioning all the other times I suspected something but decided not to act on it.

If he is having an A and has been throughout the M then he's a darn good liar. I tried to move on from the first lie about the girl he never disclosed. I thought it was odd that he chose to never talk about her...at all. And then there's the credit card thing. Oh and one time I saw a couple of hangers in the closet I didn't recognize and confronted him. I cant' remember his response but the issue was diffused. I didn't really want to get into a big blow out over stupid clothe hangers. I sure had moments when I started second guessing my own memory.

Things did get better after a while but I still had a hard time trusting him. Yeah, I'm sure my previous bad experiences didn't help with the trust thing. But, I let it go. I would mention the issue every now and again until eventually I stopped talking about it.

He did change his phone number and left his phone out in the open. His time away from home was accounted for. But, whose to say that there isn't a friend at work? He brought us to the office once for family day. I got to see his desk and pictures were there. He invited me to one of their quarterly lunch outings. It seemed harmless. My intuition tells me he's still withholding info but there's nothing I can do about that. I chose to stop snooping because it did drive me crazy. Do I want to find out if he's been lying the whole time? I do. But then a part of me is thinking "to what extent" and if I did confirm it and he decided to turn things around whose to say he won't revert back to his old self. Then what?

I'm not totally discrediting his character. He's a good guy. At least, part of what he shows me tells me he wants to be a good guy. I mean there were a lot of moments that were sincere. That's when our communication was good and so was the physical part. We spent a lot of time driving 4 hours to see his family. He became really involved with my children and things were smooth.

Come to think of it the only time we argued was when I was feeling insecure and suspicious. Our biggest issue, IMO, has been his reluctance or apprehension about starting a family together. I would bring up the topic and we agreed that we both wanted to have kids together. But then nothing would happen after that. So I'd bring it up again and of course again...we were in a holding pattern. I have a health issue that could only worsen with pregnancy. My doctor said it was not impossible but that sooner would be better. He knew this and was there at my appt. with me. Still, he didn't budge.

Finally, I grew tired of being put off. There was something crucial he wasn't telling me. At this point I was thinking about leaving but I resorted to seeing a MC. I did several sessions by myself and H eventually joined me. We went for about 6 weeks and things were getting better. So, i thought. Then we started to looking into a house. Planning for another child meant more space so I took this as his effort to show me that he was in on the baby thing. I was happy. We found a house. Signed a contract. Picked out our upgrades. Worked hard with the lenders to get the financing thing rolling. We got approved. Throughout all this I sensed something wasn't settling right with him. I would ask from time to time how he felt about it but he never shared how he felt. Only what he thought. So I took it as me being insecure again and didn't question it any further. I thought he was just anxious about how to deal with all the finances that come along with it.

Still, I grew increasingly worried to a point where I said "we don't have to go through with this. I'd rather stay in this school district for the kids instead of be happy in a beautiful house while my kids are miserable in their new school" and "I'll just have to get over it." He said okay. But then we found out getting out of the contract was gonna cost us. He left for his business trip and that's when he dropped the bomb on me. And here I am trying to figure out WTH?

Now that he knows I'm on to him; how do I catch him in a lie? Wouldn't this only justify his wanting out if I get caught or confront him with the evidence?


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I did not see where you had started this thread before I posted several long posts on the last one. Hope you will look back on your previous thread.

They are excellent liars! And a phschologial liar gets where he believes his own lies. A chronic/habitual liar knows they are lying, but it won't stop doing it. It is so maddening!!

Just find out who this guy really is. And, please.....don't take his word for it. Don't even let him know you are checking it out, b/c he will try to destroy evidence.




Last edited by sandi2; 07/28/14 03:31 PM.

It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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