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#2471291 07/22/14 03:34 PM
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claire7 Offline OP
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I'm up to Part 4. Wow.
Old thread here: Is DB Worth It? Part 3

Rough night.

I spent part of the morning re-reading DR, especially LRT. A couple of things really struck me that I would love to get some insight about.

1) Patience. Patience. Patience. I've been S for 9 months, but made all the wrong moves for the first 3-4 months. I've only been DBing since Mid-February, I would say. MWD cautions us to be very very very patient and that changes will be harder to see if you are separated, so it will take longer.

2) She lists a number of phrases that seem to be yellow-flags that there might be an OP. Despite being a pretty good DBer since Feb, despite my WAH noticing and complimenting me on changes he's seen and how I've handled things, I've heard nearly all of the phrases and have seen very little in the way of things moving in a positive direction. (They haven't really gotten worse, and there have been tiny flickers of positive stuff, but nothing close to the realm of reconciliation).

I had not really entertained the possibility that he was having an PA, although I do suspect that he's had (has) EA over the years-- he has always had very close female friends from work, there have been a few that seemed to be "too close" for my (insecure, highly anxious) comfort. And he always responded to me very negatively and defensively whenever I expressed concern about it. (it was my problem that I was insecure and overly sensitive). He also got defensive when I would try joking about his "Work wife", which only heightened my suspicions at the time.

Ugh, I'm getting nauseous remembering that part of our relationship.

But now I'm trying to control my mind from racing. Thinking about the speed of which he moved out, his complete refusal to entertain any possibility of working on our M, the few times I've seen him recently without his ring, especially when he didn't think I would see him.

Ugh. Starting to work myself into a state which is NOT healthy, I know.

I guess I just wanted to get some perspective. (Vets, are you around? I'd love some feedback!)

Do I just carry on as if I have not had any of these thoughts? Even though MWD says the phrases he's said to me are warning signs of infidelity? I keep wondering why he's shut the door on our M so tightly... but maybe this is the reason?

Do I reach out to him-- not to plead or cajole or even try to persuade... but just to tell him some of the insight I've gotten about myself and our R over the last several months, that there is much I would do differently if I had the chance to again (maybe even specifics? or specific things I *am* doing differently now?), and that, there is no pressure, but perhaps at some point we could talk about where we think our M may be heading at this point?

Ugh. I know how ridiculous this sounds, but I think I just wanted some 2x4's. Smack away, please!


Me 38 H 40
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BD 10/2013

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Claire, I had often wondered *where* your H went if there wasn't an OP, so I don't think you're being unreasonable. And I'm so sorry your mind is going down that road -- I know what it does to your entire body, it is not a good thing.

The thing is, if he has gone down that road, there really isn't anything you can do about it except keep on keeping on. It's going to have to play itself out. If you confront him about it, you may get some version of "yeah, I am, but it's not relevant to why we're separated." That won't help anything but it will make you seem clingy and needy again (in his twisted mind) and will set you back from your hard won changes. So approaching him about the marriage at all won't do you any good, especially considering that you're really even battling him right now to get him to pull his weight on the parenting.

I think there will come a day when you'll have a chance to clear the air with him. But in the meantime, I guess you & I need to recommit to our patience. Even flickers of positivity that aren't remotely close to reconciliation are better than what it could be, so let's vent here and keep moving forward for ourselves, and let these goofy guys walk into their 2x4's in due course.


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claire7 Offline OP
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Thanks, Maybell. I needed that.

You're right. I'm emotional this week. Intellectually I totally get it. Emotionally, I'm a wreck right now.

The only way it would work for me going forward is if he were to come back to me of his own volition. And I think I'm freaking out because I'm realizing that is probably not going to happen. I'm reading about other people's recent happier outcomes, and feeling selfish and envious.

I was cleaning out some old papers the other day and came across old birthday cards, Valentine's Day Cards, all the "I love you so much"s, the "I will always love you"... feels like such a lie. Like he suddenly realized that he just doesn't like who I am as a person, even if I am not depressed or anxious anymore. How do I forgive that? He knew me for two years before we got M, he knew my personality and still married me. And now it feels like, oops. Sorry, my bad. I need someone more outgoing and fun. So, we're done. Marriage vows? No one really pays attention to those, right?

Ugh.

My heart still doesn't feel ready to let go. Why am I still not detached? It's been so long already. Maybe next week I will feel stronger.


Me 38 H 40
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You are right to be a wreck and you need to live with that for as long as you need to because stuffing it will hurt you a lot.

The only way it would have worked either way was for him to have come back on his own. You've done everything you can, now you have to acknowledge that there are two separate time streams, yours and his. They flow differently.

I am SO WITH YOU on feeling selfish and envious about other people's successes. A ton. Even with my own small "success" of hearing that OW is out, it just makes me that much more impatient. It's not a place I'm proud of but it is natural. You have been really gracious, much more gracious than me, in what you let onto the boards. Same with finding all the old "I love you" messages -- he was saying "I love you" every day until the day he moved out! Then nothing. That doesn't make it a lie.

If he were in front of you right now, would you say "I love you" to him? And if you did... how would you feel about yourself half an hour after he was out of your sight? Why should we think that our H's don't have similar feelings? It can be true that we love them AND that the cost of being that kind of vulnerable to them is too high. The difference may be, not that they don't love us, but that we are self-aware enough to live with that kind of internal conflict.

(I suspect Cadet is going to come beat that assertion up with a 2x4, so let me just spout knowing that a vet will likely disagree)

Letting go and detaching are two different things to me. Detaching is about letting him live in his sluggish little time stream while I live in my white waters, and not trying to cross the streams (see what I did there?? ;)) Letting go is something more permanent. So what do you need to be happier in your stream, and not tempted by the scenery in his?


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
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Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

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Claire -

As always your sitch and words always resonate with me deeply. I'm sorry for your pain and your post I could feel the pain in your words. It brought out a lot of emotions of how I feel. I can't bear to look at pictures of us or things like that because it hurts to feel things we did and that were said by him are potentially not real.

Let me ask you a question, if your H was having an A, what would that change for you? Would you do something or would you have done things differently? And if you did confront him - if he said yes- what would it change?

I'm not trying to be mean just playing devils advocate. I think finding out about A is both good and bad. I felt 'better' that he didn't just up and leave because of real issues between us (not that we didn't have issues). But then I felt worse that he would want to be with someone else other than me. It's a terrible feeling. Everything about what we are all going through is terrible

You are one of the women I really look up to. You are so strong and give such great advice. You really are doing this. It's okay to be emotional, but have your time and pick yourself back up and know that you are doing great. We are all rooting for you!


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Check, check, and check on the worries about the flags and key phrases mentioned in the book! I was trying to dig around for a post I thought someone had left me related to this but couldn't find it... it went along the lines of: Even if there wasn't an actual OP, there may be the idea of an OP, or a fantasy of an OP, or a totally one-sided crush on an OP that gets mixed in to all of this. I don't know how much I believe in the gender bias but I've also seen/read either here or on a related site that often when men walk away there's someone waiting in the wings or the idea of someone else (whereas women often are just fed up and don't have any interest in anyone else - again, these are huge generalizations!) I can tell you that when I was BD'd, I couldn't understand why, and asked H several times if there was someone else and he was adament that there wasn't. Probably should have figured his sudden lockdown and password changes to his phone and email accounts meant something, guess I didn't want to think it meant anything. About a month later I pushed and asked "maybe there's just someone you've been talking to a lot, instead of me?" and THEN the truth finally came out that he had this friend at work that he sort of liked more than a friend, and that he had wondered about a future with her, and that he figured she wouldn't leave her H but it opened his mind to the possibility that there may be others out there like her that were "more compatible" with him than me. So, not exactly an OW but there were lines crossed, especially since I had never heard mention of this person until then and they had been working together for 6+ months - completely secret. I heard all those yellow flag phrases, too ("I just love you like a family member or sister, it's all about me and doesn't have anything to do with you..") but thought they couldn't be true because surely my H would have told me the truth when directly asked (hmm...)

I periodically get worked up when I see or discover something that I think is a clue that he's in some sort of PA. I try to let it go because generally it's not definitive and it could mean many things, and probably the simplest explanation is the likely one. I don't think you have to ignore your thoughts/concerns, but perhaps acknowledge that now is not the time and place to address them. If things change in the future, trust is rebuilding, and you are still concerned about them at that point, THEN there will be an appropriate opportunity to address it. This type of stuff really only matters if there are attempts to get back together.

I'm sure I didn't help things because I was (also) insecure and anxious about certain people that he'd get close to... which would result in him being more closed-off and less forthcoming because he didn't want me to flip out on him... which made me MORE anxious because he wouldn't volunteer information.. which made him even MORE closed-off and defensive because he felt like I was 20-questioning him... and so on and so forth. If anything does come up about feelings for someone else or EA's, I found some helpful advice in a book I read: you want to acknowledge the sharing and that you're happy he did so, even if the news might be upsetting ("I'm really glad you could tell me that. I can't say it doesn't hurt but I appreciate that you were able to tell me about it. How can we..? etc." rather than "OMG I can't believe you did that! See, that's why I can't trust you! etc.") I came to realize that I could have been less jealous, but also I should have trusted some of my misgivings/"untrustworthy" feelings because there was some reality behind them.

It is hard when I see people who are starting to R after only a couple of months (and I don't begrudge you, posters out there, not at all!) and here we are 6, 9+ months later with no more answers than we had at the beginning... but a lot of missed events and milestones and hurt.


Me:30 H:29, no kids
T:12, M:4 (when D was final)
12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore"
6/14: Separated (I move)
1/15: H filed for D
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claire7 Offline OP
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Yep yep yeppity yep.

It's all chicken and egg, right? We are not so attractive when we are insecure and jealous, which makes other W seem even more attractive in comparison (especially single ones who are outgoing and sexy), and maybe if we were more confident, they would not have these inappropriate friendships with other W in the first place, because they would be more attracted to us.

My H definitely used the "I feel like I can't tell you anything because I know you're going to get upset". He was often right (I would get upset), but withholding certainly didn't help.

Why oh why did people buy me wine glasses (I have sooooo many wine glasses) and towels and blenders when I got married? I wish I had gotten me DR, or 5LL, or Gottman's book, or SOMETHING useful. Nobody wants to think about the hard parts when you are first getting married. But maybe if we had some training, the divorce rate wouldn't be so high.

It's like when you have a baby. Nobody tells you how f'ing hard it's going to be, how you may literally lose your mind from sleep deprivation and PPD. No, they buy you little bibs and useless gadgets.

My M was already fragile when I had a baby. We had no training, no skills, and no good models to work off of. And then when the baby came along, I fell off the deep end and so did my M.

Sigh.

On the bright side- I'm ready to commit to a 180--getting my body back. I had some physical issues after my D3 was born that made exercise difficult, but had a good workout today and taking it one step at a time. I can do this!


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Claire - I just wanted to say that I've been reading through all your old threads and your situation has really resonated with me - the anxiety, the months of making wrong moves at the beginning, the H. who isn't willing to work on things, and a lot of your feelings and concerns about things like mindreading and how your H. was perceiving you early on. I really appreciate being able to read your story and learn from it.

Like you, there's a lot I can understand intellectually right now, but I struggle with the emotions an awful lot. I've also recently wondered if my H. will ever be able to work on things and run across old emails from just weeks before BD that are sweet and funny and talk about his love for me. It's brutally hard to deal with and I'm sorry that you're in this place, but I admire your strength and honesty about what you're dealing with.


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Originally Posted By: claire7
I'm up to Part 4. Wow.
Old thread here: Is DB Worth It? Part 3

Rough night.

I spent part of the morning re-reading DR, especially LRT. A couple of things really struck me that I would love to get some insight about.

1) Patience. Patience. Patience. I've been S for 9 months, but made all the wrong moves for the first 3-4 months. I've only been DBing since Mid-February, I would say. MWD cautions us to be very very very patient and that changes will be harder to see if you are separated, so it will take longer.


I see her/your point but would also add that while apart, in some ways it's easier to make the changes and then when we do interact, it's easier to notice the changes b/c we are not around every single day. Make sense?


2) She lists a number of phrases that seem to be yellow-flags that there might be an OP. Despite being a pretty good DBer since Feb, despite my WAH noticing and complimenting me on changes he's seen and how I've handled things, I've heard nearly all of the phrases and have seen very little in the way of things moving in a positive direction. (They haven't really gotten worse, and there have been tiny flickers of positive stuff, but nothing close to the realm of reconciliation).


if no move towards divorce was made, and he's SAID he noticed your improvements, I'd consider that positive, and "stable" - and ripe for you to show some more movement/change.


I had not really entertained the possibility that he was having an PA, although I do suspect that he's had (has) EA over the years-- he has always had very close female friends from work, there have been a few that seemed to be "too close" for my (insecure, highly anxious) comfort. And he always responded to me very negatively and defensively whenever I expressed concern about it. (it was my problem that I was insecure and overly sensitive).


Just to be clear, regardless of whether he's had or is having an affair, would you agree that you HAVE been too insecure and anxious in general and about that issue specifically?

I mean, don't you sort of have a diagnosed problem with that? And are you getting treatment for it? And how is THAT trait of yours now?

It always makes things worse, and sometimes it even creates the very problem you fear, it actually can cause it to happen.

Indeed, You can be your own worst enemy.


He also got defensive when I would try joking about his "Work wife", which only heightened my suspicions at the time.


Claire, I think I would have STFU about it then.

I tend NOT to do things that trigger defensive reactions in my h. IT's called "un- productive" or "destructive" to the m. Avoid those choices.


Ugh, I'm getting nauseous remembering that part of our relationship.



Because you are embarrassed or what? What is the nausea telling you?


now I'm trying to control my mind from racing.

Please DO control it. It helps NO ONE. It hurts YOU, and sometimes others.


Thinking about the speed of which he moved out, his complete refusal to entertain any possibility of working on our M, the few times I've seen him recently without his ring, especially when he didn't think I would see him.

Ugh. Starting to work myself into a state which is NOT healthy, I know.

I guess I just wanted to get some perspective. (Vets, are you around? I'd love some feedback!)

Feedback - on what?

You want us to get a crystal ball out, and tell you if the man we have not met, ever, is OR was having an affair?

Let me ask you this, what difference does it make if he's having a PA?

I mean, is it a deal breaker?

IF it is a deal breaker, then snoop away and move along with whatever you find out.

Snoop and file if there is an affair but know that if there is not, then of course you'll keep looking b/c you won't "really" believe there is no affair...and around the circle she goes....where you stop, nobody knows.

Seriously, If it's NOT a deal breaker, then STFU, drop it, and work on you.

Stop the obsessing. It REALLY does hurt you and your cause and your child.


Do I just carry on as if I have not had any of these thoughts?


NO - you act as if you do NOT have those thoughts - b/c you are a confident woman who knows her worth.
Besides, HE is not responsible for YOUR thoughts!

Since You know what he is like when you share your suspicions with him---why would you do that again? What test is this? You think somehow you'll "know" the truth?

It'll trigger anger in him, or worse, weird distrustful emotions -

AND he won't tell you his real feelings about things again, b/c you over react, remember?

What good can possibly come from you sharing your THOUGHTS of him cheating?



Even though MWD says the phrases he's said to me are warning signs of infidelity? I keep wondering why he's shut the door on our M so tightly... but maybe this is the reason?


What "Signs" are you referring to that she has said in her books?

Maybe your insecurities and jealousies and constant suspicions are warning signs of the reason he left and does not want to look back? **** What difference does it make WHY he shut the door, IF he really has shut the door anyhow? **


Do I reach out to him-- not to plead or cajole or even try to persuade... but just to tell him some of the insight I've gotten about myself and our R over the last several months, that there is much I would do differently if I had the chance to again (maybe even specifics? or specific things I *am* doing differently now?),

No...b/c it would be to achieve what, if not a reconciliation? Of course this is pursuit.

If it were "just something [you] learned", you could mail him a letter of explanation, but we both know you would attach expectations/hopes with that.

And the whole "I'm DIFFERENT NOW, and confident and desirable and a good catch, and I have had an awakening" are all things he'll SEE when he runs into you as you exchange your child.

HE WILL SEE THAT a lot more if you don't point it out, which is what you are asking permission for. [b]The one way to make sure he does NOT notice your changes - is for you to point them out.



and that, there is no pressure, but perhaps at some point we could talk about where we think our M may be heading at this point?[/b]


Do not ask him any questions about the m. You know this Claire. YOU KNOW THIS.

All you can say IF you get the chance *(meaning IF HE asks you) and IF it does not come off as pursuing, like if he asks you about an event from the past that hurt him, you could THEN say something like

"Sorry that hurt you, if I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently".

That shows you see the need for change in YOU, and that you get it.

But telling him ALSO about your suspicions pretty much contradicts the "new" different you. Don't go there. IF there is OW, the truth will be revealed in time.

You want to know if you can pursue him now, right? Well, I'd need a lot more info about how open he is to that.

I'm not all caught up on your thread but from THIS one, you're saying he's closed to working on the m, so I would do the opposite of what he expects.

That will undermine his negative images of you, which he uses to justify leaving you. The way to do that is to do 180s, the opposite of the old snoopy you.

What would that look like?


Ugh. I know how ridiculous this sounds, but I think I just wanted some 2x4's. Smack away, please!




It sounds as if you think you are responsible for a lot of the problems you have,

and yet you want to repeat some of the same behavior that might have gotten you here in the first place.

Am I missing something?

Like I said, if he had an affair, what would you do differently now, if anything?

B/C if you'd still want to work on yourself, then DO that.

IF not, if you'd turn this all around and blame him in full, and mean it, I guess that has some appeal...


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Embrace the Change
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Here are 2 pieces on detachment you might find useful.


I. Detachment

"Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Detachment is Not indifference.

But Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.

Our ego gets wounded, and then we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals. We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."

--Peanut, a fellow DBer.

And for another perspective on Detachment, there is this:


II. What is detachment?

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow W/H the freedom to be herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or FIX W/H from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.


* Giving W "the space" to be herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with W.

* Willingness to accept that I cannot change or control W.

* Developing and maintaining of a safe, emotional distance from W, to whom I have previously given a lot of power to affect my emotional outlook on life.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and W, with whom I have become overly enmeshed or dependent in order that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.


* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see W falter and fail and not be led by guilt, to feel responsible for her failure or faltering.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective and recognizing that there is a need to back away from the uncontrollable and unchangeable realities of life.

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to experience greater emotional devastation from having hung on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to practice tough love and not give in when they come to me to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow W to be who she "really is" rather than who I "want her to be."

* Ability to avoid being hurt, abused, taken advantage of by W/h who in the past has been overly dependent or enmeshed with me.

xxxxxxxxxxxx unknown pieces I found around this site.


Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 07/23/14 05:26 AM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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