Dealing with WAW Part 3

[Oxford1]

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful reply sandi. Sorry to hear you lost your long reply, but thank you for taking the time to rewrite one.

I think I got the initial part of what not to do once we separated. It is the part where she begins to move in my direction a little is where I get confused/frozen. For the sake of not doing something wrong, I usually do nothing at all. I am very grateful you came in to offer your opinion/viewpoint on what is going on. It is reassuring that you seem to agree that my evening went well. If I could do one thing over, it would probably be how I introduced a negative to chill things off. I think I could have found a better way to cool things without putting a negative into an otherwise good evening. Live and learn...

I will take your advice and get a hotel room. Even if she offered to let me stay with her, then the whole 'is it the bed or is it the couch' question pops up, and quite frankly, the couch would seem kinda awkward at her parents. So best to avoid that altogether. SInce I will be flying into her town in my plane, and being a small town with no car rental companies, I will be at her mercy of having to be driven everywhere.

We have not really spoken/text much since the day she left. I have not initiated anything other than asking to facetime with the kids. I do agree given the past times we have been together, she will probably be just as friendly as before. I will listen to advice from you, labug, 25, and others and take a little more risk by offering compliments, etc. I really hate the timing of the school issue being right now as it is a dark cloud hanging over us at the moment. Of course I will not bring up any R or M talk. But I believe it was 25 who pointed out that perhaps she is just as afraid of taking that first step towards even seeing of a R is possible. So without me taking that step, I probably need to at least do what I can to show the door is open. How? I do not have a clue just yet. Other than keep up the PMA, the 180s, and just being f'ing awesome around her

Any thoughts, input, advice, or criticism in the meantime is always welcome!!!

Thanks again to all who chime in!

I was told something very interesting by my MC and I realized today that I do what you do. My WW is in my home but still has a relationship with OM. She claims its just friends but moved back out of our bedroom to get her head straight. She wants no physical closeness with any man right now.

So this is what my MC said and why WW in my case may have changed her sleeping arrangements.

She said to think of fishing with live bait. You toss the bait out into the water and the fish starts to nibble. you sense the nibble and try to set the hook to soon or reel in the line to soon. If you set the hook to soon it usually comes flying out of the water and becomes a tangled mess. If you reel to soon you just end up with no fish and no bait.

In either case you have to re-bait the hook and cast it back out.

However if you leave the bait out there and wait patiently for the fish to engulf the hook and you set it at that point, you more then likely will have Fish for dinner.

I thought this was a pretty good metaphor for what we are going through and doing.

[Oxford1]

hey pilot, what country is the OM from? Just asking.My WW OM is from out of the Country too.

[pilot]

He is from the former Soviet block. One of those.

[25yearsmlc]

25,

You said this in a prior post to me.

Is it now ALL about the EA/PA she had or might have had? (I love that you have no proof an OM still exists at all, but are planning on conditions that need to be met by her, while not discussing any of this....more of the same old poor communications).

I think you may have my situation confused. There is proof OM exists.

No, I recall your situation and the facts about the parking lot.

But You have been unclear about what you think actually happened and you have given her some odd options in terms of "confessing" versus a divorce.


You are not sure it was a PA or an EA and you are not sure if you could get past it based on what you think your conditions would be, for your wife. But she is not here trying to save the marriage; she's not sure she wants to...


And I think that's a problem. YOU are supposedly working on saving the marriage but you have several contingencies on HER end, that you want fulfilled,

whereas I think your time ought to be spent just working on you and staying in your own sandbox. Pilot you really do have your own "stuff" to deal with.


I even caught them together in a parking lot. She would go to his house after she got off work around 10PM and stay there till after midnight. This went on for a couple of months that I was aware of. The EA was there. The PA I have no proof of, and have always referred to it as unconfirmed. Her position is nothing physical ever happened. Maybe maybe not.


To me, your next sentence sounds like a sentence from a prosecuting attorney, not a spouse who wants to own his role in the marital crisis, and or lovingly restore his marriage. You sure that is what you want? I sense a desire to make her pay...as for all these details you say you want, be careful what you wish for.

I can't think of anyone glad to know all the details. Not one.


The circumstantial evidence points to a PA, but at this point, short of her acknowledging one, I will never have any evidence of a PA during the previous months.

Anyways, I am re reading all of your replies and finding new nuggets of knowledge and insight I missed the first time around. Just clarifying above...

Thanks again for everything...and for your patience with my stubborn self.

You're welcome. Hey Pilot, seriously,

If I were you, I'd read up and ask your pastor a LOT re forgiveness. It's NOT something the other person must ask for.

You are not forgiving as a favor to THEM,

it's NOT about them or for them at all

(they do not even have to know if you forgive them!)

but it is a favor to yourself.

Scripturally, I thought we were supposed to forgive 7 x 70 times... With those numbers, I'm sure each party did NOT have to FIRST ask us to do so.

It's so much easier to forgive when asked; it's much more of a challenge to forgive to free yourselves and NOT hold onto the anger.

Holding onto pain to punish someone else, (which is what you really are doing if you say you won't forgive until/unless someone asks you to),

is like lighting yourself on fire, --

--

to get smoke in their eyes...

Forgiveness frees YOU to love others and yourself more,

it frees up space in your heart and mind for things OTHER than a grudge and resentment.

[Maybell]

Thanks, 25, I needed to hear that today.

[claire7]

^^^^Me too, 25. (And if I may hijack for a sec: I'd love for you to stop by my thread if you have a minute. Thanks)

[pilot]

Thanks again 25!

I would not call them contingencies, but boundaries. All I am looking for is something to rebuild a foundation of trust. Of course I do not know if there was a PA or not. EA absolutely. PA she denies. Based on her actions it would be a huge leap of faith to believe a PA never happened. Quite honestly, I am assuming the worse case scenario. I do not dwell on the details of what I think may have happened because it really does not do me any good.

On the forgiveness side, maybe I chose to forget and move on, and skip the forgiveness part. I will reflect more on it.

You have a gift for seeing past the words people type and seeing the person behind the typing. I hope you keep using that gift here with me. 2x4s and all

[pilot]

Ok, so I did something new. I initiated a text. Useless one and all. We both like Zak Brown, and one song in particular (about fried chicken...not a love song...haha). So I sent her a fb link to the song because it was on the radio. No words, just a link.
She replied 'good one'.

Again, a useless text and benign answer. Only significance is that was a completely unsolicited text on my part. First in nearly 8 weeks that was not kid related.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks again 25!

I would not call them contingencies, but boundaries.

Boundaries are not for other people. Boundaries are limits on US. WE won't do X or Y and WE won't put up with X, and WE WILL commit to Y, etc.


It's not about other people at all. Dictating what others can or cannot do-- is us making demands of them, trying to control them. Which is not a boundary.

A boundary might be me saying "I only listen to someone calmly talking to me" so when someone yells at me, I leave the area.

Putting a demand on them is me telling them they cannot yell at me; they MUST speak calmly to me. See the difference? It's a small one in my hypothetical, but they an get bigger in importance, and it's not all semantics.

All I am looking for is something to rebuild a foundation of trust.

That's no small thing. I suggest you let some good time together happen, time in which you both learn to RELAX around each other without expectations, just happen.

Pilot, please Stop with the expectations and just BE together without the stress of your insecurities which at this point, hinder your progress.


Of course I do not know if there was a PA or not. EA absolutely. PA she denies.


Then drop it. Seriously. Why do you keep going in circles about this??

If she confesses to a PA ---you will NOT trust her more;

if she denies it, you will NOT trust her more.

She's in a lose lose situation with your demands and endless questions.

So How are your 180s and GAL going? What are some 180s again? Yes I've asked before b/c I think that is where your focus needs to be.



Based on her actions it would be a huge leap of faith to believe a PA never happened. Quite honestly, I am assuming the worse case scenario. I do not dwell on the details of what I think may have happened because it really does not do me any good.


It does not do you any good but you DO dwell on it. you keep bringing it up.

If I were her, I fear that this would make me think

"He's obsessing again and won't let go of this. No point in me trying; he's like a dog with a bone and he won't bury it and won't let it go and he'll throw it in my face when we fight or when he feels insecure, he'll hold it over my head forever....what's the point of me trying to 'earn his trust' back, when HE mistreated ME and now just focusses in on the possible PA?? WHY AM I DOING THIS WORK??"

And then I think there is a better than 50% chance I would then rationalize what I'd done (pointing to your inability to forgive or even just move on, as more proof that it's hopeless to try and work on things) and I would likely then end things. I tell you this b/c it's my opinion that the obsessing is hurtful to your cause, not merely unhelpful.

Do you get what I'm saying?


On the forgiveness side, maybe I chose to forget and move on, and skip the forgiveness part. I will reflect more on it.

???This^^ makes no sense to me. You think forgiveness is condoning, but it's not. If you did not think something was hurtful, there'd be nothing to forgive. If you did not think you had been wronged, there'd be no difficulty forgiving.

It's hard to do when you are hurt BECAUSE YOU ARE HURT; waiting for it not to hurt before you can forgive-- is not going to happen. Anyone can "forgive" something that isn't painful; I mean, what's to forgive?

You seem to be worried that she'll take advantage of you if you forgive, or that somehow you are "losing" on something in a forgiveness choice.

Pilot, You don't lose or give away anything by forgiving, you GAIN. You gain freedom from your anger, you gain feeling lighter since you are no longer weighed down by worry or fear or pain that you let fester. You are gaining security and love b/c someone in your life will feel that they have been accepted with their flaws, they have been forgiven and now they are free to fully love b/c they CAN take that chance, now knowing you won't throw it in their face forever...they are free to love you more fully and you are free to risk your heart again too.

Otherwise you'll never be happy with her, and she won't be happy with you. If you cannot or won't forgive, end things now for HER sake, and yours. But I'd still say a major life lesson for you is to learn forgiveness. At this rate you'll never have a good R with your mom, and I don't know what type of legacy you'll leave your kids.

Pilot, this concept of forgiveness is crucial and you are definitely not construing it the same way I do. I think your concept is common one, but a sorely mistaken one.

More on that later, b/c it's VERY important.

You have a gift for seeing past the words people type and seeing the person behind the typing. I hope you keep using that gift here with me. 2x4s and all

Well thank you for the kind words. I guess I am now testing your claim to want the 2 x 4's....

[CS000]

Sorry to hijack but 25 MLC cab you please stop by my thread? Thanks