WAH & MLC? - EA/PA - Please Help

[MrBond]

"He told me I could fix all of this if I wanted to. Not sure what he means, but I did tell him I wasn't going to beg. "

I think it's fairly obvious. He believes that there are things that you could do to make the M work better and improve it.

From all of your posts, all you do is seem to focus on the A and I sense alot of pride coming from you. Put that aside. What things did YOU do to contribute to the downfall of the M? What did he say to you that needed to change?

Now to be very clear, I'm not saying that what you did gave him reason to have an A. But it seems as if you didn't explain what M issues you had. Be honest and post them here. Take a good hard look at yourself. Only then can we give you some solutions.

[Train]

Sam, you out there?

How are things?

[Sam3]

Mr. Bond, Thank you for stopping by.

Train- I stayed up until 2 am reading your previous threads. Wow!

I appreciate all of you successful DB's stopping by my thread.

I am working on putting my thoughts down of the marriage problems & a little more background of our history. It should help give everyone a clearer picture.

I have been working on it from desktop throughout the day.
(3 little kids - keep me busy!) It's going to be long - but I will finish it up as soon as I can get the kids settled for the night.

Thanks so much all of you!

[MrBond]

"I am working on putting my thoughts down of the marriage problems & a little more background of our history. It should help give everyone a clearer picture. "

Just be sure to be brutally honest with how things were. I know it's easy to paint ourselves as being the saints in the M, especially when there's an A, but the more honest you can be, the better we can help.

[Sam3]

Response to 25yearsmlc:

It's a recipe for marital failure, even if you know "some" couples who can do it. It's much harder, so why do that to a marriage and kids?
He had an opportunity for job experience in new position and was supposed to only be there 2 years. Now, 2&1/2 years later. He's been promoted. Is making very good money. Says he can't make that here where we live. Not ready to come home. Doesn't want me & children to move & for our children to grow up in that area. During BD he told me he feels like his life is there now.


5/10/2014 my H tells me he's not happy, he's confused.

Did you explore what that^ meant to him? If so, what did you learn?
What would YOU SAY were the problems in the marriage BEFORE he said this?

And now, is there anything else or new to add?

This was said during BD and the day after. He told me he was lonely. Not happy with our marriage. I did not explore the confusion part.

He tells me he took care of the situation with OW

Did you ask him what he meant by that?

He told me "The situation has been handled" He said called her & told her that his wife thinks there was something going on with them. Ad he would not be talking to her anymore. I did not ask him to do this. I just stated that my boundaries were that there would be no communication with her from our family home while he was spending time with our children. He told me he was only coming home to see them. I did say that if he crossed my boundary we would go to an every other weekend schedule.

agreed he will see kids every other weekend. Either they will go away for the weekend or I will. So we are not staying together & kids can still be at home.

I felt like I stated a boundary and after I knew that he lied to me about it so he could continue to communicate from our home. I felt like I needed to stand firm. I told him I knew he lied to me about the communication ending in our home and we were going to agree to a schedule. My H can never give a definite answer as to when he will be home - sometimes he says Thursday night, sometimes Fri around lunch, sometimes Friday night.
I felt like this was cake eating. He would come home on the weekends and I'm still here cooking dinner & doing baths & primarily taking care of kids. He lays on the couch looking at his phone constantly.

And, my 5 old year old told me a couple of days ago that daddy has 2 phones now. One he uses for texting and the other one is the one we call you on & he takes pictures with. Guess there is no point in asking about his burner phone?

[b]I told him I understood he was on his own journey & that I was letting him go.


What did you mean by that? What do you think HE thought you meant?and you did this to achieve what? I mean, what was YOUR GOAL? Dig deep.
I told him this after we signed our schedule for the kids. My goal was to let him know that I was detaching from him. In MC office the week before he said to C that he "wished I would just let him go." He told me he felt like I was pressuring him to work on the marriage. I wanted him to know that I understood he needed to figure things out for himself & no amount of convincing I was doing was going to make him stay.


I know from the bank account that he is out partying. Big partying.
He's running around like he's 21 years old, hanging out & partying with lots of people.

Are you doing anything to protect yourself or your kids, financially? Have you seen a L? You know you can and NOT do anything with the information? It is empowering to know your rights. You need "do" nothing with that info, not even tell him.
I have had a consultation with a lawyer. He is using tons of marital assets on his partying with & without OW. He is spending an average of $1100 week on bars & food.
He does not know that I went to see a lawyer.

on 7/13. He told me I could fix all of this if I wanted to. Not sure what he means,

WELL THAT ^^ IS DAMN IMPORTANT TO FIGURE OUT. It's key.

I'd have pursued that topic like a dog with a bone. You need to know what he means. What is it he wants from you -- b/c it sure sounds as if he thinks you know.

Do you? Do not gloss over this. It's called a CLUE and he has some unmet needs he is telling you about.

It's crucial you know it and analyze it and work on it! He's giving you valuable "intel" so if you were a spy on a "recon mission" -- this would be the secret you need to know.
And work on...

He was being kind of a smart a$$ and saying "maybe if you gave me a little more a$$, we wouldn't have these problems" "so do you want to go have sex & start working on fixing this?" He also said that he thought after he BD "that I should have come to him & told him no that I loved him and wasn't going to let him do this." The weekend after BD I told him I was willing to do whatever it took to get things back on track. and that I loved him very much. I texted him a few days later & told him that I should have been a better wife and I specifically listed out things that I knew that I did not do. ( I will address those things at the end)


but I did tell him I wasn't going to beg.

Wow, that is a knee-jerk prideful response. Why did you think he wanted you to "beg"?

What is going on that you are not telling us? What was your family life like growing up? Do you have divorce or adultery in your background?

Why didn't you simply open up your heart to him, to find out what HE is missing in the m, and to own your role in this - and to figure out if there is any room for mutual work to do, to restore your m?

What would you have "Risked" by asking that??
In saying I wasn't going to beg him, I felt like that's what he wanted me to do. He wanted to host a memorial day party at our house 2 days after BD. And I said "how am I supposed to fake my way through a bar-b-q?" And he said to me "well you said you would do anything to keep our marriage."
I feel like my H tries to manipulate me & others to get what he wants when he wants it.
My family was a mess. My mom is currently Separated from her 4th H. My father left when I was 2 yo. I never had a close relationship with my dad. He only came to see me 2-3 times per year. Much of that is probably b/c of my mom. She felt like he was hanging around bad people (and they were) - she wanted him to take me as little as possible.
Her 2nd H was physically abusive to her. I witnessed it. They were married from when I was 6-16.

I did try to open up my heart to him at that time, He told me "too little, too late."
I told him that I would continue to love him. And he said, "if I change my mind in 6 months and you are not around then it's my bad." I feel like he knows that he gets a free pass to go out and play and we will all be here waiting for him when he returns.

He asked why some family members that he has talked to told him I did not want a divorce -

b/c he's HOPING you don't! Can you give him a crumb?

Or are you so mad and certain that this is a deal breaker?

If it is, then let him go NOW and drop all this. Seriously, the worst choice YOU can make is to stay married AND stay miserable.

Don't stay to punish him b/c your children and you will pay the price...

I was trying to stay strong. This is a 180 for me. Maybe not the right way to handle. I feel taken advantage of and that he knows I will always be here. I didn't want him to feel like he always has me as Plan B. I will do whatever it takes to keep my family together. In our relationship my H has always controlled everything.

My childhood was awful. H childhood was too. Both of his parents died by the time he was 6 yo. He has no brothers or sisters. He lived with grandmother until he was 12 and then an aunt & uncle from 12-18.


I told him that it was not my preference for my children.


Do you think that sounds like a woman who wants to own her role in this, and to fight for her man and her marriage? (I don't.)

Do you sense some "deeply felt regret" and a "passionate desire" for things to work out?
No, I don't either. I think It's about as robotic as an answer can be.

Why did you choose that tone? Was it to punish him? To "teach him a lesson" (same thing)? What is going on in your head/heart? I sense too much pride and self righteousness for him to get past.
The thing is, if an adulterer fears that this will be thrown in their face every time you two fight or held over his head like the sword of Damacles, why should he work to "earn your trust" back when in reality, you won't give it to him anyhow?

Why climb Mt Everest if you're going to withhold affection and real commitment from him anyhow?

I HAVE seen couples recover from affairs and I mean really recover. It IS possible but it takes a humble heart on BOTH parties, not just the wayward spouse.


I do believe that couples can recover. And you are correct because in my previous thread I wrote about how he said he "was not going to live the rest of his life with me thinking he is a liar, and having this brought up forever." Previously I did tell him that I absolutely did not want a divorce.
I probably did sound robotic. I thought it would be good for him to see me detached from the situation - like an outsider just talking to him about how his wife feels.


Such as? What does "Finding myself" mean? Have you some flaws you are working to ameliorate and or some anger you need to release?


I lost myself in my kids. I had 3 babies in 5&1/2 years. They became my life. Especially since he has been gone. I lost myself. I Forgot who I was or what I even liked to do because I'm so busy keeping everybody fed, bathed, & alive. I'm working on GAL. I have been spending time with friends. I am going away this weekend to the beach by myself. I'm going to go back to bible study when school starts. I still take kids to church. And I would like to volunteer at the Ronald Mcdonald house at the hospital where my baby was as soon as older kids start back to school/preschool. It's close to my heart. I didn't stay at the Ronald Mcdonald house because I wanted to see my other kids each morning before school but it was available to me. I know how scary it is to have a NICU baby and I would like to pay it forward in some way.


I sense a LOT of resentment. What can you do to release that anger and resentment and to work on forgiveness?

Do you believe forgiveness is a gift you give yourself, or some "get out of jail free" card for him? Do you see the value to YOU, of letting go?

What do you think it means in marriage vows when it says to go "from this day forward"? Do you think it MIGHT mean to let go of the past?

BINGO!! Resentment. That is my biggest issue in the marriage. I don't know how to release the resentment. I do believe forgiveness is for me. But, I do also feel like its a get out jail free card for him.

In our marriage there have been things that have happened that I don't feel were fully dealt with. I never got a true sense of remorse from him. I got "I'm Sorry" and its only if he's caught in a lie. Then I swept it under the rug so our perfect life could keep trucking along. Little things have happened & been said throughout the marriage that have chipped away at me. So it becomes hard to want to go run up an kiss someone or initiate sex with them.

Examples - He had a habit of porn & hanging out at strip clubs which led us to our MC 4 years ago. He lied to me about it all the time. I found out a year ago through a friends wife that her H & my H had been at a strip club. Her H hired one of the girls for additional services. My H straight up lied to me until he knew that his friends W had already called me. Then I got "I'm Sorry, it wont happen again." It wasn't brought up again because my son was having a birthday party the next day. I was really great at rug sweeping.

When I was pregnant with Baby #2. He told me one night that if I wouldn't F him, he would find someone who would.

When we went to MC 4 years ago it was mainly because my H drinking was out of control. I got calls from police. People would call me to get him b/c he was passed out. He wrecked a boat. And he was very verbally abusive.
We dealt with those issues in MC. He says he has made a 180 with all of these things. Which he has.
And he says I am still the same b!tch I was 4 years ago.

When I saw all the secret folder apps on his phone - the only thing I can think of is porn stuff. And I know from bank records that he was at strip club this past Saturday night. Then he calls the next day & says "I want us to maybe spend some time together."
What? I'm so confused. I feel like so much less of a person. I have had 3 babies. I breastfed 3 children. I do not look like a 21 year old stripper. I know that I am attractive and not overweight but, still.

Two weekends ago when I last saw him, he kept talking about having sex. I did tell him that I wasn't having sex with him. He swears he hasn't been "screwing" anyone. Anyway, we ended up having sex. I think I'm pretty good at separating my emotions from it. First time we had sex since middle of May. But afterwards he says "what happened to your boobs?" I told him I stopped breastfeeding. He says " well you are going to have to get your boobs fixed." Thanks, Buddy!!!


Another huge resentment, I have no access to money. He gives me an allowance check to by groceries, target, clothes for kids. He pays the bills. His paycheck is direct deposited to his personal bank account and he writes me a check from that. I did not even know how much he makes until I started looking through bank statements & last years tax return. I know this is my own fault. But he also does not want me to see where he spends his money or as he says give him a hard time about what he spends.
And as my attorney stated he is giving me and his children about 8% of his income. He gives me & kids less money per week than what he is spending on food.

I feel like he doesn't see me as an equal partner. And that he always wants a little leverage over me.

Resentment - I am single parenting our kids and busting my a$$ all week to take care of the kids by myself. He goes out to dinner every night, he plays golf, he goes to concerts, goes on fishing trips, goes on hunting trips. He does whatever the heck he wants to do. I never get a break. On the weekends he will grill something or cook sometimes but I still am primary caregiver of children.

In the meantime I have seen several pictures of him with about 3-4 different women/girls.


Sounds as if there is no specific "special" Ow then, correct? Just the free single life HE can argue you released him to do, since you "let him go", correct?

No, there was a special one. The one he was texting 10-15 times a day from our house on the weekends. This is same one he took on vacation with him. The one he goes out to eat with several times per week just the two of them. The same one that he said he handled the situation.
The other girls are probably more of party girls. They are partying together in the pictures. they are at bars, on boats & drunk. He told me in counseling he has 3 or 4 girls chasing after him, wanting to get together with him.

Because he BD said he was doing his own thing & could not say he could be committed to relationship.

Understood. To me that means you can't really hold him accountable for it - but then, HE has to deal with the fallout of others seeing him in that position, and maybe he can use more discretion in who puts pictures of him and where. For HIS sake, and the kids, and yours. And of course for the chance of a recon, it'd be a lot easier if you did not have to see that.
I can't hold him accountable for anything he is doing? Really? Because he told me he wanted to be alone & figure out what he wanted to do. And then I find out & hear all this other stuff. I mean if you really think I can't hold him accountable - but how do I not acknowledge all the additional damage he has done to our marriage?



He tells me again that I could fix this,

AND THAT MEANS WHAT?? Dig and tell us what he's talking about. Don't you want to know? he is telling you what love language of his was not filled, what need was unmet. Sure he used a lousy way of showing that but you must own some of this b/c guess what/

No WAS comes back to a marriage they left......unless...

they believe that the marriage --- can be better/different than before.

What are YOU doing to show him that?

He definitely has a love language that's not being filled. I'm very disappointed to say even after MC 4 years ago. I did not know about 5LL until I came here. He needs affection. He's dying for it. Affection is not one of my LL.
He wants me to initiate sex. He says sex isn't spontaneous anymore. He says I don't hold his hand. When he tries to kiss me, I turn my head and let him kiss my cheek. I know that sounds horrible. I hate that we have such an ugly past. But, I don't know how to get over it. Because I am a rug sweeper.
He also feels like I am too dependent on him to make decisions. I tend to be VERY indecisive even about mundane things.

IF you'll never forgive him then leave him now and end it all.
But don't pretend he's not possibly sending out an SOS to the universe. I think he is. He's NOT saying "I LOVE OW", he's saying he wants YOU but you need to fix something you are not mentioning. Has he been in a sex starved marriage or what?

He says you can fix this anytime. What does he mean? Is there a prideful Mexican stand off going on between you two? Who is more stubborn, you or him?

Why do I think pride is the big factor here?

Pride is probably a big factor. I don't know how to let that go and still have some sense of self respect because I also feel he has no respect for me.
I'm thinking he means fixing it by giving/showing him affection. Just going based on the few things he has told me.
We haven't had an in depth talk about our relationship and what went wrong.
He did tell me Monday night that he is ready to talk about things soon.
Sex starved? Maybe. I was 9 months preg in February. Had a c section. Baby stayed in the hospital for 29 days. I stayed at the hospital 18 hours a day. We brought baby home needing a ton of additional care & I had literally no time or energy to be affectionate. dealing with a newborn & 2 other small children all week by myself. I was literally - touched out. Not trying to make excuses but after what I went thru with baby, sex was the last thing on my mind.


I was mentally preparing to file for D - after school starts for kids b/c I am beginning to question what Im standing for.
I think pride is factoring so much here that it'll be hard to get to the truth and heart of the matter with it in the way. Put the wounded ego away and think about what is best for your kids without making your pain and anger into "righteous causes, b/c I have been there and done that and it helps no one. So don't bother with the "my kids must see FAIRNESS" b/c that means "I want to punish my h and claim to be RIGHT while I break up my family or refuse to put my pride aside.

There is an important line between healthy self respect and a wounded ego. But sometimes it is hard to see where that line is.

All truths.

Last night he calls for kids, after he is done talking to the oldest he asks to talk to me. He asks about baby. Then he says how are you doing? He never asks me anything about me. We dont talk about ourselves or what we are doing.

then this ^^ was new and positive.


He says he has been thinking about us & wanted to see if I would like to go away with him for a couple of days. Then pick the kids up and spend time together as a family.

HUGE POSITIVE!!


I didnt know how to respond so I just said "let me think about it."

I GUESS you were surprised so I hope you called him back and accepted....yes?

I didn't know what to say. When he called Monday night. He didn't bring it up. So I texted him after kids were in bed and asked if I could give him a call. I told him I would like to talk about things and asked him when he was thinking of wanting to do this so we could make arrangements for the kids. He said he was still just thinking about it. He said he misses me but he is so scared that in a year we will end up right back where we are now. I told I did not want that either. I said "Okay, no problem." I don't want to be too pushy.


To acknowledge opening my heart to him, I did that.
My text was on June 2. This is my Pre DB days. So I feel like he does know where I stand in the marriage. Even though my actions have since shown that I have pulled away.

"I could have been a better wife. I understand that I took our relationship for granted, I should have told you how much I appreciate you, how proud I am of you, told you how much I still am in love with you & that I love everything about you. I should have made more time for us. I should have been showing you how much you mean to me.
I accept responsibility for my actions - I think I have been so wrapped up in the kids that I forgot to be a wife as well as a mother. I got busy & preoccupied and stopped making our relationship a priority. I understand now how you must not feel important to me. I know that I hurt you. I am sorry for that. I am going to work on being the best person I can be. And getting the ability & self confidence to show more love & affection.
I value our marriage and our family. I believe there is hope for our marriage."

When I found DB I thought this is pursuing and he specifically said in counseling he wished I would let him go. So I thought I needed to pull back hard.


Our MC feels my H has narcissitic characteristics making it hard for him to express empathy, the manipulation, and that he's just a little better, smarter etc. than everyone else. Not saying that he has that personality disorder but he definitely has some of the traits.

I want to be firm with him. Because I never have been. I want him to know that I am not the same person he left.

Pre BD
He has told me I am like living with a man. No cudddles, no affection.
I know that he sees me as a b!tch. I probably am/was. I NOW see I was filled with resentment over things I could not control. The resentments and my actions were all non verbal. I'm pretty passive in talking and he is super controlling. But I pretty much never answered my phone when he called. I never texted him during the day to tell him the kids or I missed him. I thought that doing this would show him I was strong and we were doing fine without him. But then last night I realized if I was gone working, I would want to know that they missed me.

I was watching Brene Brown on Oprah's lifeclass last night and she was talking about vulnerability and it hit me. I think I never wanted to be vulnerable. I know I have abandonement issues from my father. And the one thing I feared the most actually happened. I was abandoned. But maybe because of my own doing.

I'm digging deep here guys.


He comes here tomorrow to spend the weekend with the kids. I will see him for a very little amount of time to give him the rundown of taking care of baby for the weekend. I will see him again Sunday night when I get back. He may drive back that night or stay in spare room and leave around 4:30 am Monday like he did when things were "normal".

I don't know how to act around him. I went dark as soon as I found DB minus a few conversations we have had. Until July 13. But since he went back to work on July 14 it's been pretty dim except for the reaching out he did last Sunday and conversation we had Monday.

I appreciate Starsky's firm stance & Train's exposure of the affair. I know the affair isn't the main issue. We have a few main issues. It's just what hurts the most right now.

So there it is, all the ugly truths. My marriage. It's sad that when I write it all out - it looks like one big mess. When I look at this whole picture of these two people, that are me & my H. I wonder what the heck happened to us. We started dating when I was 19 & he was 23. 17 years later - Who did we become? How did we get here?

Thank You Everyone. I am not rebuttaling anything you are saying. Just trying to explain my thought process in some of the things I have said or done in my stitch.
I truly appreciate your opinions and your time.
Thanks!

[Tarheel]

Sam, I haven't read your previous thread, so I apologize if you've already answered this, but what about H makes you want to be with him? Just my 2 cents- From a couple of his comments, it sounds from the outside like he treats you as an object. Know that you deserve better than that.

[Train]

A friendly neighborhood disclaimer: Sam, not everyone agrees on approaches around here - and, from what I've read, A's in particular REALLY put people in different camps sometimes on how to DB. Yes, my approach was more firm - I listened to (and agreed with) Starsky probably 95% of the time in my own sitch ... and I agree with him at least 95% of the time still. But some of the things I did - such as exposing my H's affair - does not align with every, single DB principle.

But what I did *worked* to re-attract my H. It also *worked* in that not only do I have my own self-respect in tact, but my H is *treating* me respectfully.

No approach is guaranteed, obviously. I WILL say your sitch sounds a whole lot like mine pre-BD. I'll also say that you (and/or we) can psychoanalyze you(rself) all day long - and maybe you DO have unresolved abandonment issues - but from what I just read, you are a smart, articulate, level-headed, attractive woman who is independent and patient enough to raise your kids on potatoes while your H lives life high-on-the-hog.

I'll also say that the whole "independent, I-don't-want-to-appear-weak-and-vulnerable" thing can make us pretty crappy wives.

There's a balance in there somewhere, Sam. I think it should be high on your priority list to find it.

Let me see if I can think "out loud" here, using primarily my own sitch as an example.

Just like you, I realized, during the separation with my H, that I had lost myself BIG TIME during the course of our M. I had let myself go. And - if I'm being honest - I had become somewhat of a martyr: "I CAN'T go out with friends! I have nothing to wear! I've gained too much weight to wear my pre-pregnancy clothes, and I spend all the money we budgeted for clothes on the kids!!! Waaah! Waaah! Poor pitiful me!" (Okay, maybe I wasn't THAT dramatic, but looking back, that has to be EXACTLY what I sounded like.)

Truthfully, even DURING our M I realized that I had let myself go. But it was always the same excuses: I homeschool S8 and stay home with D3. I'm dealing with two teenagers primarily on my own. I don't have time for me. Did I mention I don't have anything to wear?

And you wanna know something? I just assumed my H was going to stick around, Sam. That's how my parents' M was: they weren't wildly passionate, they hardly ever held hands, they never really had to WORK on their M. They just.showed.up. They were loyal. Period. And I assumed - even though my H had cheated on me once before, early on in our M - that being together 8 more years meant we had everything down pat: maybe we weren't HAPPY, but we would "just show up" until the kids were grown, then we could enjoy life ... and each other ... a little more.

Hogwash.

Who was Sam in the beginning of your relationship? Tell us about who you were that attracted your H to you in the first place. Just from reading your posts, I already feel like I may know ... and that she may be a little lost right now in dirty diapers and juice boxes.

Again, you'll get varying opinions about this for sure, and we can psycho-babble all day long about what came first - the chicken or the egg - when we talk about how *incredibly* disrespectful your H has been toward you. But the simple fact is: Wow. He's been incredibly disrespectful toward you. And you deserve MUCH better than that.

To ask a wife and the mother of your children: "What happened to your boobs?" And to follow that up with: "You need to do something about that"??!?

Um, no. Just no.

I'll be honest: I wouldn't want to sleep with a man who said that to me, either! Gee whiz!

You will likely be surprised to find, though, Sam, that when you learn to like and respect *yourself* again, your H may just follow suit. And if he *doesn't* follow suit? YOU CAN CHOOSE whether you want to continue in your M or not. That knife cuts both ways.

This was my approach, as you probably already know from reading my sitch: Yes, I exposed the A, hoping it would end it quicker once the secrecy and risk were gone. I set firm boundaries with my H. I told him I would not discuss our relationship, or anything reconciliation-related, until/unless he broke things off with OW and agreed to a complete, full transparency plan. He laughed at me and repeatedly swore he was never coming back home. But that was okay; I stuck to my boundaries, realizing I'm a prize, I will be *no one's* "Plan B," and, yes, I was willing to lose my M if he did not end his A. I was not going to be in an open marriage. Period. At the same time, I wrestled with who *I* had become as a woman and a wife. I realized it would be hard to re-attract my H if I continued letting myself go and being a nagging "Old Mother Hubbard" who basically completely shut my H out, even - I'm ashamed to admit - of our bed. I mean, what man would WANT to live with that???

So I started working on ME. Slowly, I started feeling better about myself; I even bought myself a new outfit - complete with jewelry - at least every two weeks. I started wearing a little make-up and throwing in earrings every day. (This was to help me feel better and also proved to be important because my H would find reasons to just drop by the house unannounced ... until I also set a boundary with THAT.) I started meeting up with friends, shooting guns, reading a little more and even planning things to do with the kids on my own ... which was a pretty big deal because we were always cooped up in the house. Toward my H? I became more calm. I wouldn't engage with him. I'd ignore texts that were meant to fuel a fire and would only answer texts that asked a question, presented an emergency or required a response due to something with the kids. But if he was having a "calm" day and would text me something about his work (usually a complaint), I would respond kindly, "Wow. That must have been difficult to hear, especially considering how hard you're working. And just for what it's worth, by the way, I really do appreciate you working so hard and continuing to provide for our family during this difficult time for us all. That really means a lot."

All that to say: I put down firm boundaries that protected my family and my heart. But I also worked simultaneously on being a better me ... not only for myself but for the person I would find myself in a relationship with down the road. And I hoped that would be my H.

I started feeling a lot better about myself; people even commented that I looked years younger. That was mainly because I started feeling good and confident. I reached a place where I knew I would be okay with or without my H or my M. And, no, I didn't coddle him, and I didn't allow him to treat me like a doormat ... which would have done NOTHING positive for my PMA or self-esteem while he was with OW. And ANY self-esteem we can hang onto during these difficult times is worth hanging onto, do you agree?

And what's cool, Sam, is that H noticed the changes - big time. At the risk of sharing TMI, when he came home, he told me one of the things he'd really like for me to do is send him - ahem - pictures from time to time. At first, my initial reaction (only in my mind) was "old Train": "Ew. How immature! That's what high-schoolers do! What if I accidentally send it to the wrong person? Can't you just wait until you get home and see the real deal?"

And then it hit me: Eureka! That's what high-schoolers do! That's what H and I would have done (if we'd had nifty, high-tech cell phones when we were dating). And - punch in the gut - that's what he and OW were doing.

I should note, too, Sam, that when I let go of my own inhibitions a little, I felt sexier and more attractive ... and the other girls out there in the world - even OW - really didn't matter so much anymore.

You're right: The A is a symptom of much bigger problems in the M. But *until As are over*, I do not think you can start working on those other problems. It just doesn't work. Affairs cause people to think and behave *completely differently* than who they'd otherwise be, and there's a physical reason for that involving the brain and chemicals and all that jazz.

Also, you have to get *yourself* in an okay place, mentally. You have to find your self-confidence again. Pursuing a man who's treating you like dirt - even if that man is your H - will NOT help you get to that "okay place," IMO. And until you feel confident in your own skin again, you're going to have a very difficult time showing your H - through your actions - that you're a "newer, better" Sam.

I, like Tarheel, have some really serious concerns about the way your H speaks to and treats you. But I've watched my H go from acting like a disrespectful, spoiled-rotten brat to treating me with respect. But it all started with ME showing MYSELF respect first.

I know I've been all over the place here and have typed a lot about my own sitch, but hopefully it's coherent enough to follow along ... and glean something from.

I hope you have a glorious time on your solo vacation; that will give you some peace and quiet to really think about where you are, where you want to be and how you want to get there. My beach trip with my kids in April was a game-changer for me AND my M. A little distance, time and space has a tendency to help with clarity and resolve.

Hang in there!

[Starsky309]

I know I've been all over the place here and have typed a lot about my own sitch, but hopefully it's coherent enough to follow along ... and glean something from.

"To follow along" ?? Jeezus, it's going into my personal archives -- that is GREAT STUFF, Train! As good of an example of -- and a description of -- the "dual track" approach as I've ever seen!





Starsky

[Starsky309]

Again, you'll get varying opinions about this for sure, and we can psycho-babble all day long about what came first - the chicken or the egg - when we talk about how *incredibly* disrespectful your H has been toward you. But the simple fact is: Wow. He's been incredibly disrespectful toward you. And you deserve MUCH better than that.

To ask a wife and the mother of your children: "What happened to your boobs?" And to follow that up with: "You need to do something about that"??!?

Um, no. Just no.

MLC, FOO issues, PTSD, other . . . I don't care: "Crap behavior is crap behavior."





Starsky

[Train]

Learned from the best, Starsky.

Thanks, bro.