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#2470658 07/19/14 09:10 PM
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I'm very new here. I have been reading threads like crazy and admire so much of the work people do on themselves and their marriages. I am lost though. I am lost and so severely desperate that I'm drowning. I've read DB and DR as well as The Sex Starved Marriage. I have spoken to Laurie, my DB couch, who is amazing and thoroughly helpful. But here I am lost. Desperate. Scared.

My husband of 12 years wants to leave. He has 10,000 reasons to leave and I understand every single one of them. I have not been a good wife at all. A year ago I made promises to make changes that I never followed through with completely and now he's done. Completely DONE. He has lost all hope. We've talked about changes I've made and intend to make but he doesn't trust me or trust my motivation. He sees divorce as the only answer to him regaining his self respect. I don't want to be the person who made him lose his self respect. I don't want to be the woman who made him hate himself. He says he feels dead inside, that this past year was the end for him and he has no more to give. He can't even wait around to witness the changes I've said I've made because he doesn't have it in him to wait. I understand all of this. I know how horrible I've been and I'm working on significant, meaningful, powerful and permanent changes. I want to like myself, too. He deserves a loving, non-emasculating wife. I want to be that for him. I love him and he says he loves me but I've broken him and wounded him so badly that my promises of change are only that to him - promises. A divorce provides happiness right away, he says, whereas staying even though I'm making changes means he still has to wait around to see the changes and he doesn't have that in him. He says he has to trust his instincts and his instincts say he needs to do what's best for him which is not being in our marriage.

I'm devastated. I've done this. I've caused this. I've brought this pain on myself and I've caused him so much daily pain an apology would never help heal the wounds. I don't say that to gain pity or sympathy, I say it because I need to come to terms with the truth.

He's still living in the house but in a different room. He says it kills him to be here because he's so unhappy. He's mentally checked out completely. We have one 6 (almost 7) year old daughter with SEVERE behavior problems that we can never seem to get under complete control despite massive efforts to the contrary. He seems to think that she'll be "fine" eventually; that he's not worried about her at all. I am petrified for her and will be the primary person dealing with the blowback of whatever this potential divorce could do to her. She has enough to contend with already.

DB talks about backing off, not chasing, pleading, GAL, etc. I tried all that for three weeks and he told me it seemed like I didn't care, was indifferent to everything going on. So, I did a 180. He's a man who needs reassurance (who doesn't, really?) so we started to talk more about us, what I want, what he wants - I find myself trying to convince him to stay. That my perspective and awareness are different - permanently and that he can expect bigger and better things. That I can't guarantee his happiness but that I can guarantee there will be reasons to be happy together in a strong, loving marriage. We've talked multiple times about it and he seems hellbent on leaving. I want us to be a family. I want to be his support and his strength. I want to give him hope. I want to be his home and for him to be my home. I KNOW I can do all these things but he doesn't believe me. I can't force him to believe me but if I have the hope that he does not, how can this work? I can make changes until I'm blue in the face but he doesn't care. I've wounded him that badly. What have I done?

My appointment with Laurie was last Tuesday and we came up with somethings I can do (to shut up and stop criticizing, to stop emasculating, to stop taking over when he parents our daughter, etc) and to look for small signs that he's softening (laughing with me more, maybe talking about the future). It turns out him laughing with me more was just reassuring him that we'd be great divorced because we'd be good friends, and the future he was talking about never included me but him as a divorced bachelor having fun with his daughter on his custody days. Backfire.

Where do I go from here? I feel pressed for time and impatient because once he leaves, that's it. We'll have to tell our daughter and while it breaks every child's heart to hear of their parents getting a divorce my daughter has many issues and this will destroy her. DESTROY her. Her heart will crash into a thousand pieces and I'm not sure I can handle that.

I'm lost and Im desperate and I could use some help and encouragement. I'm trying to follow the rules in DB and DR but my husband is throwing me for a loop. He needs to see my changes and my commitment to further change himself but how? How? How?

How do I instill hope in someone else when I have so much of it? I know that shouldn't even be my goal but it is. Because I was so detached in our marriage before I feel like detaching isn't the answer. How do I do this?

I apologize for the lack of reasonable order in my post. I'm trying to type this while managing my daughter have an epic meltdown. One of many more to come I'm sure.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Can you tell us more about what issues he has with you?

What has he said that he dislikes?

What are some of the promised changes that you have already not followed through on?

What problems do you see in yourself right now?

We need some more information in general to see what it is that youre working with here. Try to fill in the blanks here with a little more detailed history and try to be as thorough as possible.

The main thing that I see here so far is that you are wanting to talk about your changes. Dont talk about them. Do them. Let him see you changing and dont bring it up at all. Dont ask if he has noticed. Dont try to point it out. Let him see them on his own. And be consistent in whatever they are. You need to make them a permanent thing and not something that is to win him back. He has no reason to trust that you will make the changes and for them to stick based on what youve already told us.

Thats really all the advice I can offer based on the information that you have given. Keep posting here often and we can dig deeper into some of these issues.


M:33
W:30
T:10 M:2
B/D: 5/27/14
S: 5/28/14
Wife moved back in 7/18/14
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Oh the issues are big and deep. Where shall I begin? We've had an unhealthy marriage for so long I can't really pinpoint the exact issues except to say that I've treated him like a child forever, emasculated him, distrusted his ability to handle pretty much anything without my criticism or correction, been disrespectful, and emotionally beaten him down to where he has nothing left. Nothing. And to make matters worse, I spoke badly about him (every single thing about him) to other people via text and he found them. I did this while he was going through treatment for thyroid cancer last year. Yes. I did that. He's so hurt by my backstabbing and complaining about him that he can't get those words out of his head. Understandably.

He has said that he dislikes everything about our relationship. That he can't trust me, questions my principles, morals and thinks my promises are empty. He wants to feel appreciated (which I never did), loved (which I never did), emotionally connected with (which I didn't try hard enough to do in a way that would work), like a MAN (which I beat down and to be able to have self respect (which I took from him). These are all things he deserves unquestioningly just simply because he is human. I have truly been a monster. Last year when I made promises I promised to be more loving and to be more affectionate and to have sex more. It lasted a month, maybe. It isn't that my promises were empty but I was looking for HIM to change and meet me half way. HE needed more from me to make changes and I see that now. If I'd read DB last year things would be different but I didn't and they aren't. I know now my path. I know what to do if things get rocky. I know now how he feels when I reject him sexually. I know now how he feels when I emasculate him, even inadvertently. I know now how much I've done to him and how much I've stepped on him. I now have a path, goals, a process, a plan. Last year I had none of those things, I was just flying by the seat of my pants hoping he'd see changes in me and when he didn't, I just said, "Oh well, there's only so much I can do alone in this". Now I know differently.

I know what you mean by not talking about my changes but I'm at a loss with this one because he doesn't want to see my changes. He's happy I'm making changes so the divorce will be easier. That's not what I want. I'm making these changes for ME so I can be a better person to HIM and for our relationship. I know the road will be hard and jagged and super rocky but I am willing to walk it because WE are worth it. If I don't ask if he's noticed he'll go a year or two without seeing them and I'm not exaggerating. My changes don't make him want to stay so how are they going to make him want to stay if I don't bring them up? I agree, I need to make them permanent and lasting - my #1 goal above all else. Nothing matters to me more.

He works ridiculous hours so if he moves out, I will quite literally not see him unless it is to exchange our daughter. A "hi, how'd things go?" or a "she has karate on Friday at 5 pm" isn't going to be enough for him to see ANYTHING let alone permanent changes I'm making. And let's say he does recognize changes, he will just say, "that's great" and move on. He won't relate it back to himself or our relationship.

I'm just so upset about all this and the ache I feel in my heart of regret, sorrow, loss, desperation, fear, anger, frustration. You're right, Ben, he has no reason to trust that I will make the changes and for them to stick. Except that I now have a path. I didn't have that last year. I can now own my role in all of this like an adult as opposed to the petulant child I've been all these years ("I did that because of YOU..."). Why should he trust me other than because I want him to? I don't have the answer to that. I wish I did. Because this time I mean it. What a sorry excuse for a reason. I know that. But I don't have endless months for this because once he's gone, he'll witness NO changes. Once he's gone that's it.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
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He works ridiculous hours so if he moves out, I will quite literally not see him unless it is to exchange our daughter. A "hi, how'd things go?" or a "she has karate on Friday at 5 pm" isn't going to be enough for him to see ANYTHING let alone permanent changes I'm making. And let's say he does recognize changes, he will just say, "that's great" and move on. He won't relate it back to himself or our relationship.


Not true at all. In my situation, my W and I separated, and I had zero contact with her other than a single daily text from whichever one of us did not have the kids asking to facetime with the kids. We would then see eachother briefly every 10 days or so to swap kids. But I used the time to myself to do some 180s, and when I did have contact with her, I made sure every second counted. 6-7 weeks into this and she is contacting me and being very friendly and affectionate. This from a person who was completely checked out in May and was having an A.

It is important though you do not underestimate the amount of time and patience you will need to save your M, if it can be saved. It took years to break your H, it will take a long time to pick up the pieces and put him back together.


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Apr 2006
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A running theme in your description, though it's still really vague (a few specifics would help a lot, instead of just saying you were a "monster"), is one of negativity.

And you are doing it now to yourself with a hopelessness throughout. We cannot help you if all you do is argue about why our suggestions won't work. Okay so open your mind up to the possibility that we MIGHT be able to help you IF you allow yourself to be helped. That will mean you change the way you think and behave. So that means you don't keep coming up with reasons for NOT changing or following our advice.

Give this/us a chance.


Originally Posted By: ss06
Oh the issues are big and deep. Where shall I begin? We've had an unhealthy marriage for so long I can't really pinpoint the exact issues except to say that I've treated him like a child forever, emasculated him, distrusted his ability to handle pretty much anything without my criticism or correction, been disrespectful, and emotionally beaten him down to where he has nothing left. Nothing. And to make matters worse, I spoke badly about him (every single thing about him) to other people via text and he found them. I did this while he was going through treatment for thyroid cancer last year. Yes. I did that. He's so hurt by my backstabbing and complaining about him that he can't get those words out of his head. Understandably.

Sounds pretty bad. So, why do you think you did all this? And what were thinking at the time, or did you not ever examine your behaviors?
What was your childhood and parents marriage like?


He has said that he dislikes everything about our relationship.

Sounds as if you do too...



That he can't trust me, questions my principles, morals and thinks my promises are empty. He wants to feel appreciated (which I never did), loved (which I never did), emotionally connected with (which I didn't try hard enough to do in a way that would work), like a MAN (which I beat down and to be able to have self respect (which I took from him). These are all things he deserves unquestioningly just simply because he is human. I have truly been a monster.

If you are even half right, then you have a long road ahead of you and you really MUST NOT trust only your views on this. When your coach or we suggest something, try NOT to come up with a reason for why it won't work in "your case" b/c as unique as we all are, there ARE patterns in these situations. You need to accept that we might offer you something.

Stop wallowing in hopelessness. You have a child who is going to be watching you and this is NOT a trait you want to pass onto her.


Last year when I made promises I promised to be more loving and to be more affectionate and to have sex more. It lasted a month, maybe. It isn't that my promises were empty but I was looking for HIM to change and meet me half way. HE needed more from me to make changes and I see that now.

Usually the LBSer comes here thinking they have to take the first step.

I tell them this: "Yes, And you have to take the 2nd step, and the third, and the next 3054 steps - b/c THEY ARE NOT HERE TRYING TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE; You are..."

and that is the truth.



If I'd read DB last year things would be different but I didn't and they aren't. I know now my path. I know what to do if things get rocky.

Such as? Can you list 2-3 things you would DO/SAY differently if you had the chance?



I know now how he feels when I reject him sexually. I know now how he feels when I emasculate him, even inadvertently. I know now how much I've done to him and how much I've stepped on him. I now have a path, goals, a process, a plan.

Sounds great. So why not begin? Why so hopeless?

Last year I had none of those things, I was just flying by the seat of my pants hoping he'd see changes in me and when he didn't, I just said, "Oh well, there's only so much I can do alone in this". Now I know differently.

You must drop the scorecard (whereby you measured what HE had done to keep things 'even' with you.) You cannot pick that scorecard back up again either. Ever.

The problem with scorecards is that they "keep a record of wrongs", which is detrimental to happy marriages. AND the other thing is that our spouses have their own scorecards and on theirs, we are NOT ahead.

Our vows often say "from this day forward" and I think those are genius words! That is how you have to take this, from this day forward. Drop the past and be here now. Drop the list of grievances that are used to berate and negate.

Don't borrow trouble from tomorrow either. That's stinking thinking and it's negative and wasteful and downright harmful...and miserable to be around.


I know what you mean by not talking about my changes but I'm at a loss with this one because he doesn't want to see my changes. He's happy I'm making changes so the divorce will be easier.

NOT making the changes will make the divorce easier, on him, b/c it'll serve as a reminder to him of why he's leaving you. Talking about the changes never helps and you will have to trust us on that.

Talk is cheap AND it tends to mean that your "changes" are merely tactics to get him back; not sincere genuine authentic changes you make for YOU so you can become the woman you were meant to become.

These are changes anyone would make if they had a come to Jesus moment like you have had. No need to tell him. Telling him undermines the very claims you are making about the changes being for you.


That's not what I want. I'm making these changes for ME so I can be a better person to HIM and for our relationship.

Then make them. I don't understand what you mean by "not what I want". You don't want the divorce to be easy on him?

Then BE the changed woman he's wanted for so long. Let him SEE & BELIEVE that you have finally become the woman he wanted/needed. That will make anyone second guess their choice to leave, especially when there are kids.

TALKING about it will not help you - and it may well hurt your cause.


I know the road will be hard and jagged and super rocky but I am willing to walk it because WE are worth it. If I don't ask if he's noticed he'll go a year or two without seeing them and I'm not exaggerating.

Stop the negative projections. IF you DO ask him if he noticed, what then? You think he will THEN notice what he had not before?

You think he'll slap his forehead and say "You are right! FINALLY I can come home!"??

I think it's much MUCH more likely he'll say "Oh, she's doing her tactical superficial GAME again...I'm not buying it again".

If you really did the DB work we do here, it will show and saying nothing about it - would help you convince him FAR MORE than talking ever will.

You already talked about your changes before, so why repeat failed behaviors?


My changes don't make him want to stay so how are they going to make him want to stay if I don't bring them up?


OMG it's the opposite! If the changes don't make him want to stay ---then pointing them out will make him want to run.

And How would you know if the changes won't "make him stay"? I Know one thing, NOTHING you do will MAKE him do/feel anything. Those are his choices. All you can do is change YOU. Stop trying to control who/what you cannot control, like HIM or his reactions. Let go of that this minute. It's an illusion anyhow, but it's a dangerous illusion.

Okay so You think a month of "change" is enough? It's not. You need a month of contrasting new behaviors, to undermine every year of past negatives.

So that means if you have always been a "monster" in the marriage the whole 12 years, it will take a YEAR of new changes to get him to buy into the changes being real or lasting.

You have NOT done that, so how can you so certainly negatively predict how you'll fail (unless you get to do this your way)? Your way is the OPPOSITE of what we are telling you -but You seem to think your failed way is mandatory. I just think it's another same old thing, and I don't get that. Stop resisting a program you have not tried b/c you have NOT Done real DB work yet. Not that I know of.


I agree, I need to make them permanent and lasting - my #1 goal above all else. Nothing matters to me more.

He works ridiculous hours so if he moves out, I will quite literally not see him unless it is to exchange our daughter. A "hi, how'd things go?" or a "she has karate on Friday at 5 pm" isn't going to be enough for him to see ANYTHING let alone permanent changes I'm making.

NOT TRUE. We have done it so WE know. Short interchanges can be lengthened and will be, IN TIME< if he learns he can relax around you and not flee. If you don't pressure him with more arguments about how you have changed and he can stay now and blah blah blah then maybe he'll take a breath and feel safe enough to have coffee with you. But not if you're going to harangue him.

So how to be noticed for a change in 3 minutes? You can look great and be happy which will shock him enough as it is. You can give him 1-2 authentic compliments when you see him, which will be noticed. You can text him a thank you and send him a cute picture of your d or something positive she said or did, when he's not around. THOse things alone will be noticed. Plus your d will speak about the fun things you have been doing and how nice you are and playful and artsy, etc.

You can thank him for awakening in you the real you. The "Unafraid to be wrong" you, the optimistic you, the spiritual you, the beautiful healthier you. And you can tell him the truth -- which is that you are grateful he woke you up, that he has done you a favor by getting you to shake off these negative chains you have been wearing too long. You can be happy and loving and lovable and when those things are happening, they will radiate and yes they will be seen.

Pointing them out is so unnecessary as to almost negate them. Certainly in this scenario pointing the changes out is so self serving that is exactly how they'll look and since the changes are for YOU and NOT to get him back, telling him makes zero sense. Do you get that?



And let's say he does recognize changes, he will just say, "that's great" and move on. He won't relate it back to himself or our relationship.

Man, you need to change the negative tape in your brain's cassette recorder. Too much mind reading and ALL negative.

You have it set up so no matter what you do, he'll never come home. So give up.

Oh you don't want to give up? Then don't come up with reasons NOT to try this program, before you even begin. I thought you had a plan. Is it to keep saying "no this won't work for ME b/c MY situation is the only one in the world like this"...?? That mindset does not help you.

If he sees changes in the mother of his only child, at some point he's going to wonder if "NOW" things could work out. That is at least a possibility and it's the only way I can imagine it happening.



I'm just so upset about all this and the ache I feel in my heart of regret, sorrow, loss, desperation, fear, anger, frustration. You're right, Ben, he has no reason to trust that I will make the changes and for them to stick. Except that I now have a path. I didn't have that last year.


You keep saying "now I have a path" but it sounds as if your path is to TELL HIM IN WORDS - and we are telling you that won't work.

What is this "new path" and are you on it now?



I can now own my role in all of this like an adult as opposed to the petulant child I've been all these years ("I did that because of YOU..."). Why should he trust me other than because I want him to? I don't have the answer to that. I wish I did.


Because this time I mean it. What a sorry excuse for a reason. I know that. But I don't have endless months for this because once he's gone, he'll witness NO changes. Once he's gone that's it.


Obviously the sooner you make the changes the better. But even after you are apart, you'll surely continue to grow. Do not revert to the old you, and tell yourself you may as well "b/c after all he didn't come home." Besides, I have 2 family members who divorced and remarried their former spouses so yes, it happens.

You will never be glad to have been a monster. Change now.

"Consistent change + sufficient time = change he can believe in."


^^^ That is the 'math' of it.

You will never regret handling yourself with dignity and strength and honor. You need to start that. Don't lose your temper at all. Not in front of him.

If you know the negatives and images he has of you which justify his leaving, then you also know how to contrast and contradict and undermine those images.


To show him that his data about you is no longer valid.

Contrast the images he has of you that are bad, with new positives.
If you used to dress too casually, then begin to Dress up. You berated him, now you will sincerely compliment him, do NOT berate him or anyone for anything that isn't life threatening. Life is too short.

* Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives he does.

* Lose the scorecard and never bring up past grievances. Let them go.

* Live FROM this day forward" which is what you'd have to do, to stay married.

* No past grievances get thrown out in a fight or piled on, or hung over our spouse's head.

* Let the inner feeling of contentment, liking ourselves, trusting that our future is bright no matter what others do, radiate from within.

No long term marriage stays together and happy without a CHUNK of forgiveness from at least one party. Learn to forgive and practice it on yourself.

As for your d, stop assuming/projecting the worst.
That can be a self fulfilling prophecy.

And if the marriage was as terrible as you say it was, then it's not something she needs in her life either.

She should not learn to treat a man like crap and have no respect for him, to backstab him even while he's ill, to emasculate him while he faces cancer.

That's what you say you did/do, so how can you argue that her NOT seeing that will "destroy" her? What she's dealing with now could destroy her too. Sounds as if she has a terrible model for marriage and perhaps it hurts her interactions socially if this is what she has witnessed all her life.

Your h may find a kind loving woman for himself, and your d seeing him in a healthy relationship is probably what he's thinking/hoping would be good for her and for him.

Your goal is to show him he can have that healthy r with YOU, so start treating him with respect and admiration and tenderness

-- and yes you can do that without overly pursuing him.

What do you think?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Were YOU ever happy in the marriage? Was he? IF so, What was your marriage like when you were happy?

Why do you believe you changed, or were you always this way? What would your h SAY if HE were here talking to us, and can you give us some specific examples?

Like what were you mad about when he had cancer, and what reaction did you get from the people you "badmouthed" him to?

Did any of them tell you it was inappropriate, or was it "funny" to you or them?

I'm trying to wrap my brain around this situation. Do you want to be married to him? If so, why?

Why did you sabotage the marriage, assuming you love him?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,077
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Ss06 Offline OP
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Holy Moly, 25! You have given me so many nuggets and so many 2x4s that I've had to write them down so I can refer back to them FOREVER!

I should state that this specific post was written at a particularly negative point. I am sure there will be many more but I was definitely fighting against the stream thinking my situation was unique and couldn't be solved the usual way. I was fighting DB'n out of fear that it wouldn't work before I'd even given it a chance, before I'd done the work. Something rather indicative of how i approached my marriage, I think. Fight the discomfort because it's uncomfortable. Didn't work in the marriage, won't work in repairing the marriage, if that's possible so I'm dropping that technique.

A lot happened since my last post in this thread, mostly that I'm doing the LRT and GAL, looking DEEP within myself for the start of what will be a very long reparative journey of ME for ME. I must say, 25, you have really asked some hard and important questions.

Was I happy in the marriage? No, not for a lot of it. We always had good times but I hated that nothing was ever resolved despite our constant arguing or talking about things. I would state a need and he'd tell me how I shouldn't want or need that. He'd state a need and I would tell him how impossible he is for wanting that. Same issues all the time which turned into both of us becoming completely disconnected and emotionally unattached. My frustration turned to resentment which turned to anger which turned to disrespect and obstinance which caused me to bash him to others thinking I was "venting". If I'm being honest with myself, I think I wanted someone to say to me, "he's such an a$$, you deserve so much better" and in some cases, I heard that but in the end, I'm the A$$ because I sat around waiting for changes and kept score every single day.

He was (and always will be) MIA a lot because of his career. Sometimes I felt like I played second fiddle to his career and other times I actually did play second fiddle. He works in the film industry and even when he wasn't working on a film at the moment he was working 7 days a week, 15-18 hour days. When he IS on a film he works 7 days a week and 20 hour days (not exaggerating at all here) for the duration of his allotted time before the deadline (6 weeks, 3 months, 9 months, a few were a year even). I remember sobbing out of happiness because he said he'd take HALF a Saturday off to hang out with me. HALF. I felt lonely and abandoned and neglected but I had a life. I hung out with friends, had a solid yoga practice, worked long hours myself, even bought opera tickets with a girlfriend one year. Once we had our daughter things changed. He felt a lot of pressure to provide and he's never been a slacker (one of the many things I love about him). Our daughter was a handful since birth and still does not sleep through the night. He started to "escape" to work. He'd still be at work at 2 am while I was STILL trying to get our baby to sleep. I suffered from postpartum depression and he was MIA. I felt lost and alone. In a typical year he'll take 2-3 movies. A busy year is 4 movies. The year my daughter was born he took 7 movies. SEVEN. I am sure I was no fun to be around and our daughter was always crying and upset so I'm not sure I completely blame him for disappearing but I needed support desperately. That's when I started to emotionally withdraw. I saw it as self preservation but I was jealous of him having a life outside of our woefully unhappy daughter. I felt like he was saying, "you handle depressed you and our cranky daughter, I'll make money, see ya". I remember asking him to be more present, more available so we could be a family. He started to come home at our daughter's bedtime to read her a story then would hand her back to me, get back in the car and go back to work. That's it, he honestly thought that was a stellar contribution to the family, afterall, he was making the money. I was depressed (though medicated), exhausted, unequipped to handle motherhood alone and frustrated by his absence. It was around this time that I stopped caring about his feelings, I think. I didn't care if he was tired, I hadn't had more than 4 hours consecutive sleep in 5+ years. I didn't care that he was anxious about his career, I was dragging our daughter to behavior specialists, signing up for occupational therapy, social group, testing, etc. I didn't care if he didn't like how I told him to do something. I felt like I deserved more so I was going to teach him that by treating him like crap because I felt like he was treating me like crap. Super mature, right? And so the score keeping began with a vengeance. I used my resentment (because in my eyes my score was always higher, of course) to let him know he was just escaping and not helping me which turned into belittling, condescension, emasculation and sh!t talking.

Why did I sabotage the marriage? I think because I thought it would eventually motivate change in HIM. yeah, I realize how sick that is now. I need to do more soul searching in this area because i know there is more to it, something deeper to it but I need to think about it some more. Such a great question.

I can't find it now but at some point I think you asked about my childhood and my parents marriage. Good God, both subjects are ripe with reasons why I am where I am. I am the middle child of three, only girl. My parents are brilliant chemists both with advanced degrees but my mother was horribly abusive and my father let it happen. At 16 I was removed from the home and placed in foster care. My mother charged with abuse and my father charged with neglect, they packed up and left the state leaving me behind. I worked hard, got a full athletic scholarship to a Div 1 school and that was that. I met H while in school. I was so full of anger at the world when we met. We were just kids really. He was 18 I was 19.

My parents marriage was always rocky and I mean ROCKY. Always arguing, my father worked in different states but we were always moving which my mom resented. They didn't seem to like each other much and rarely got along. They are still married (44 years). They are now Retrovialle coaches believe it or not. They were close to divorce countless times but somehow have made it work.

I'm going to submit this and come back to other questions...


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Originally Posted By: ss06
Holy Moly, 25! You have given me so many nuggets and so many 2x4s that I've had to write them down so I can refer back to them FOREVER!

I should state that this specific post was written at a particularly negative point. I am sure there will be many more but I was definitely fighting against the stream thinking my situation was unique and couldn't be solved the usual way. I was fighting DB'n out of fear that it wouldn't work before I'd even given it a chance, before I'd done the work.

Agreed. Glad you see this^^.



Something rather indicative of how i approached my marriage, I think. Fight the discomfort because it's uncomfortable. Didn't work in the marriage, won't work in repairing the marriage, if that's possible so I'm dropping that technique.

Drop it - and don't pick it up again. You will be tempted to. Don't. cool

A lot happened since my last post in this thread, mostly that I'm doing the LRT and GAL, looking DEEP within myself for the start of what will be a very long reparative journey of ME for ME. I must say, 25, you have really asked some hard and important questions.

Was I happy in the marriage? No, not for a lot of it. We always had good times but I hated that nothing was ever resolved despite our constant arguing or talking about things.

Conflict resolution is more important than the number of conflicts. Life throws more curve balls at some couples than others. But you need those resolution skills.

your parents have learned them and God Bless them! We attended Retrovaille and found it very useful. An individual personal growth workshop we attended years ago, which is in alignment with Retrovaille and DBing and is profoundly life changing, is called "Essential Experience" (aka "EE") and is based in Philadelphia. If you want accelerated therapy, (like 2 years of GOOD therapy in one long weekend), you ought to look into it.

It's "efficient' b/c in weekly T sessions, with a GOOD therapist (never mind the kind who just listen and hope you figure out your issues AND glean tools from the universe), even then you may make a break thru but then have to pick up the kids or go back to work.

It can be fragmented. That's why weekend retreats or workshops work better for ME and MY h. Not everyone is that way, but we are. Please consider EE b/c a lot of your issues are not directly related to the marriage, per se.

Plus if you go by yourself, you won't be as inhibited as you would be with your h, and if he sees the changes in you that I would expect, he may well attend himself. I know my h did, based on what he SAW in me, not on what I said. Although I did tell him "that was an amazing experience" and he could see that I was visibly happier and calmer than I had EVER been in my life.

(I had issues with my MIL, which I did not know til I was at EE. That's another reason It was good he did not go with me).

Make sense?



I would state a need and he'd tell me how I shouldn't want or need that. He'd state a need and I would tell him how impossible he is for wanting that. Same issues all the time which turned into both of us becoming completely disconnected and emotionally unattached.

My frustration turned to resentment which turned to anger which turned to disrespect and obstinance which caused me to bash him to others thinking I was "venting". If I'm being honest with myself, I think I wanted someone to say to me, "he's such an a$$, you deserve so much better" and in some cases, I heard that but in the end, I'm the A$$ because I sat around waiting for changes and kept score every single day.

We had 2 MC's tell my h he was being "Selfish" and not acting like a "family man". While that SEEMS vindicating for me, it also left me powerless b/c if I'm perfect already and he's the jerk, what do I do with THAT?

Much better to realize I too have my issues and I too have some work I CAN DO so I'm not powerless. That's why the best news you can get from a good MC, is that YOU have some work to do.


He was (and always will be) MIA a lot because of his career. Sometimes I felt like I played second fiddle to his career and other times I actually did play second fiddle.

Me too. My h is an MD. So, what are you going to do about that? I can't compete with a heart surgery patient, so I won't. I accept that my h does work which really does take him away. That's that. I'm NOT divorcing him for it. So that means I won't complain about it either.

For years I "welcomed" him home with my arms crossed literally and figuratively b/c he was "neglecting" me/family. Sometimes he took work/cases on he did NOT need to. So maybe he was selfish some times.

But was my approach helping me? NO. Why didn't I give him a real welcome home so he'd MISS being here? That would have been smarter. But I wanted to be "right" more than I wanted to be happy and I did not want to "reward" him for his transgressions....brilliant, eh? Yeah not so much...

Lesson learned and hopefully, PASSED ON, yes?



He works in the film industry and even when he wasn't working on a film at the moment he was working 7 days a week, 15-18 hour days. When he IS on a film he works 7 days a week and 20 hour days (not exaggerating at all here) for the duration of his allotted time before the deadline (6 weeks, 3 months, 9 months, a few were a year even). I remember sobbing out of happiness because he said he'd take HALF a Saturday off to hang out with me. HALF.

Ever think that 1) it really was a gift to you, however small?

2) that if you gave him a home/daughter/wife who REALLY ENJOYED his presence, he might want to be there more?


I felt lonely and abandoned and neglected but I had a life. I hung out with friends, had a solid yoga practice, worked long hours myself, even bought opera tickets with a girlfriend one year.

You GAL< and that helps. Do it again. Seriously.


Once we had our daughter things changed. He felt a lot of pressure to provide and he's never been a slacker (one of the many things I love about him). Our daughter was a handful since birth and still does not sleep through the night. He started to "escape" to work.

Not so incomprehensible, is it? I know you needed more but so did he. And anyhow this is where you are NOW so "from this day forward" is how you must approach this, yes?


He'd still be at work at 2 am while I was STILL trying to get our baby to sleep. I suffered from postpartum depression and he was MIA. I felt lost and alone. In a typical year he'll take 2-3 movies. A busy year is 4 movies. The year my daughter was born he took 7 movies. SEVEN. I am sure I was no fun to be around and our daughter was always crying and upset so I'm not sure I completely blame him for disappearing but I needed support desperately. That's when I started to emotionally withdraw. I saw it as self preservation but I was jealous of him having a life outside of our woefully unhappy daughter. I felt like he was saying, "you handle depressed you and our cranky daughter, I'll make money, see ya".


I get this^^. No need to rehash so much and I know you are simply answering my questions. I get that.

I'm just telling you NOW that we don't have to keep doing that - so you can get unstuck, and not keep going in circles of anger/resentment, okay?



I remember asking him to be more present, more available so we could be a family. He started to come home at our daughter's bedtime to read her a story then would hand her back to me, get back in the car and go back to work.


Like I said, "applaud loudly for the 1%" of positives. It's HARD to do, but it helps. I know it.


That's it, he honestly thought that was a stellar contribution to the family, afterall, he was making the money. I was depressed (though medicated), exhausted, unequipped to handle motherhood alone and frustrated by his absence. It was around this time that I stopped caring about his feelings, I think.

or earlier but like I said, no need to keep rehashing b/c it usually (not always but mostly) keeps us in circles and cycles of anger. It does NOT help to vent unless you notice quickly that you feel better, not worse.


I didn't care if he was tired, I hadn't had more than 4 hours consecutive sleep in 5+ years. I didn't care that he was anxious about his career, I was dragging our daughter to behavior specialists, signing up for occupational therapy, social group, testing, etc. I didn't care if he didn't like how I told him to do something.

Your anger was your priority and now it's not. So, moving on....OH but I hope you do get your d some help. You don't need your h for that, it helps but he's not mandatory to you getting HER some sleep help.


I felt like I deserved more so I was going to teach him that by treating him like crap because I felt like he was treating me like crap. Super mature, right? And so the score keeping began with a vengeance. I used my resentment (because in my eyes my score was always higher, of course) to let him know he was just escaping and not helping me which turned into belittling, condescension, emasculation and sh!t talking.


Yep I get it. Many of us put showing our anger ahead of helping our m.

.


Why did I sabotage the marriage? I think because I thought it would eventually motivate change in HIM. yeah, I realize how sick that is now.


It's wacky thinking but very common. Good insights here.



I need to do more soul searching in this area because i know there is more to it, something deeper to it but I need to think about it some more. Such a great question.

I can't find it now but at some point I think you asked about my childhood and my parents marriage. Good God, both subjects are ripe with reasons why I am where I am. I am the middle child of three, only girl. My parents are brilliant chemists both with advanced degrees but my mother was horribly abusive and my father let it happen. At 16 I was removed from the home and placed in foster care. My mother charged with abuse and my father charged with neglect, they packed up and left the state leaving me behind. I worked hard, got a full athletic scholarship to a Div 1 school and that was that. I met H while in school. I was so full of anger at the world when we met. We were just kids really. He was 18 I was 19.

My parents marriage was always rocky and I mean ROCKY. Always arguing, my father worked in different states but we were always moving which my mom resented. They didn't seem to like each other much and rarely got along. They are still married (44 years). They are now Retrovialle coaches believe it or not. They were close to divorce countless times but somehow have made it work.

I'm going to submit this and come back to other questions...



Talk to your parents!! What a resource you have! And do check out EE, seriously. I've been to many workshops (Landmark, EST, among otehrws including some here in LA where I also live.)

By far EE is the most profound and intellectual and deep and life changing. I have heard that Lifespring is also good but I have no direct experience with them.

I think YOU would get a lot out of EE and it's the best way to make sure you follow thru in the changes you want to make.

But I'll stop now so you don't think I'm selling you something (I'm not!, I promise) besides a lot of DBers have gone to EE and they can tell you how it helped them.

Good luck and keep at this.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
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Just stating some progress on my part because this is hard... H is home from work today looking at places to move into. when he told me he was meeting with the real estate agent I didn't cringe or feel that stabbing pain in my chest wanting to do everything in my power to stop him. I just said, "Ok, hope it goes well". It feels like such a mixed signal. Ugh!

ALSO, he said in passing this morning that he would pick up D from camp and take her to karate. I haven't reminded him or nagged him about her not having her stuff (her karate belt is in my car) and I noticed her karate stuff is still in a bag by the front door. This is very BIG for me. To let it go and trust that he can do these things without my criticism or nagging. AND, I haven't checked the GPS app on my phone to see if he's on his way to pick up D or if he forgot. See? Baby steps. He said he had it and I'm letting him have it. This is no small feat for me so I'm putting out my fist for some bumps! Come on! Give a girl an accolade!!!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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That's awesome!! Congrats!!

I remember how it felt (strange, but also....liberating?) when I stopped worrying so much about how much TV my D was watching with my H, or what she was eating, or whether he had packed her bag the way I would. They were not life or death things. It felt scary, but also good to let go.


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BD 10/2013

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clap clap clap grin laugh

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE!!

cool

there? Oh, and just so you know, this will NOT mean a mixed signal has been sent. If you become calm and kind and gentle, he will NOT suddenly say "Gee I guess she doesn't care. If only she'd nag or criticize me THEN I'd know she cares"..

see how wacky that is? That's old stinking thinking. Don't do that anymore.

Be a woman only a fool would leave. Start now.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Just had a quick chat with H. He asked me if I had a good day. Our daughter is having trouble behaving in pretty much every situation so we chatted about that a bit. I asked him if he had a good day besides that. He basically said the following:

well, yes and no. i mean, we've talked about this before and I shouldn't be complaining to you but I know what i have to do (move out) but it's a downgrade to do that (meaning the places he's looking at aren't all that great). It's scary, you know? (this is where I validated and listened a lot!) It's scary to leave and it's scary to stay but I know what i have to do, it's just hard. I shouldn't be complaining to you about this. I just have no projects at work, I mean, I have stuff on the horizon but nothing I'm working on right now to dive my head into so I'm not thinking about this so much so it's hard.

I said: well, maybe that's a good thing right now. it gives you the ability to look at places which you wouldn't be able to do if you were snowed under with work. I know it's hard though. It's not an easy situation to be in.

Him: yeah. well, I appreciate you realizing that. It's really not easy. Alright, I don't want to bring you down, you seem chipper and happy and I don't want to bring you down so I'm going to go return some emails and then go to bed early. Goodnight.


Ok! So, help me out here. He said it was " hard to leave and hard to stay" which is totally true, I'm sure it's not easy to leave an unhappy relationship. It's a big step and a difficult one to take for happiness. Just the fact that he said it was also hard to stay makes me think he's considered that. That's a BIG change from just a week ago where he said he doesn't want to stay and can't imagine considering it. Woo hoo! It's not a huge win but I'll take anything right now. I didn't plead or beg or talk about the future or point out my changes or intended changes... I just listened, validated and was friendly, respectful, honorable and open. Wow! It wasn't terribly hard but I had to be very conscious of not showing a sad face or disappointed face. And the chat didn't deflate me like I thought it might midway through. I'm still here and I'm STILL STANDING (which is what my screen name stands for, btw).

He said he wanted to talk to a MC about how to talk to our daughter about the separation. He says he knows what he wants to say but he wants us to be on the same page. I know he wants to say "everything will be fine" and I think that's a lie to tell to a 6 year old but maybe I'm being dramatic. I'm not sure, I haven't thought about it much. Too busy with LRT.


Please give me your thoughts and/or feedback. Keep doing what I'm doing? Whatcha got for me?!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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You did WELL, and I'm impressed.

I'm pretty sure he noticed. But you know what? Even if HE didn't, YOU Did

-- and another thing --

at a minimum you did NOT add to the pile of "oops" and "oh crap, I just hurt him again".

And that's^^ something!!

Keep it up, you will grow and become a better woman b/c of all this

and that is no small thing.

((( )))


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
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X marries OW 5/2016

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Really cool!!! Keep that up!!!


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What great advice 25yrsmlc listed above. That will help for sure.


Me43/WAW43..M 4y..S1 11/S2 4..Bomb2/2014..Dfile 5/2014..Settlement signed 8/20/14..D final 8/29/14
I moved out 10/10/14..WAW got D she wanted. I wanted R. No waiting,just no boundaries in her way.
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Today I'm feeling pretty good. I had a session with my coach this morning and we spent some good time looking at the positives, taking a step back and looking at how far I've come in just a week with my recommitment to LRT, the realization that I've really done a good job of identifying a lot of the things I need to work on and starting on them already. I'm proud of myself. The hard work is just beginning, I know. Digging deeper and repairing myself. I feel guilt which is unproductive but I need to take it in for what it is. I'm amazed at how empowering all this work on myself is and how it's helping me not to dwell on what he did to me in the marriage and instead focus on what I can change, what I did to fail him, how I let myself go there for so long, why I was so resistant to real, substantive change for so long and how I let it ruin our marriage. I'm working on that. All of that.

I am SO grateful for this gift of time right now. I marvel at what an amazing opportunity I've been given by H to do this soul searching, this DEEP inventory of myself and to be able to do it with the long term hope of sharing my changes with him really humbles me. Granted, he gave me this gift by wanting to D but unfortunately it took that for me to really listen, really look and really work on me. I'll have to live with that forever but today I'm doing well thanks to so many of you who have cheered me on, knocked me over with 2x4s and picked me back up with your encouragement and personal stories and insights. Today i'm walking the walk and talking the talk and I'm proud of me.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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OMG, H texted me asking me about my day! I feel like a school girl but that's big! Really big!!! OMG!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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So confused, could use some insight here.

LRT seems to be doing it's magic and I'm closely for looking for positive signs. One week ago he was hardly speaking to me and VERY cautious. He went out, did his own thing, avoided me. Now I've noticed he seeks me out to talk to me, tell me something funny in his day, texts me to see how my day is, asks if I needed anything at the store, even invited me along today to the farm he was taking d to. I declined saying I appreciated the invitation but had made other plans. He said no problem and went on his way. I went out and took care of me (mani/pedi!!!) and came home to a quiet house to read. When they came home he came up to chat with me, tell me how their day went. Then later I took a chance and asked if he had plans for dinner and suggested we go for sushi, if he was up for it. He immediately said, sounds great, let me look up a good place. He took my daughter and I out, laughed, made jokes, was very take charge but not over bearing and we had a GREAT time. The only reference to everything going on was "I really need to exercise. With everything going on I'm ballooning". I just said, "well, you seem to really like those long hikes in the mountains" to which he said, "yeah but it's just so freaking HOT lately". I just listened, said nothing further. Now we are home all sitting on the couch together, even the dog, watching Jumanji.

These are all positive, right? He was just out looking at places to move into the other day. I'm confused. No talk of the future or anything. How do I proceed? Just keep on doing what I'm doing? Help!!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Yes-- all positive!!

Just keep on doing what you're doing! Exactly! Don't bring up R talk, don't have any expectations. Just keep up the great work!

smile


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T 8 M 6
BD 10/2013

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Such great news! I agree with Claire, keep doing what your doing. If it works don't change it!


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T: 19 M:12
S:11
D:9
BD: 5/4/14
Proof of OW 8/13/14-love note from her
8/19 admits OW
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Dude, I think I am deep, deep, deep in the friend zone. frown


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
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Separation: 8/11/14

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As 25years has said to me, several times, "stop that stinkin' thinkin'!"

Reread your recent post noticing all the positives. Friend zone is not where you want to be in the long term, but a) it is a step towards that, and b) certainly better than the "enemy" or "ignore" zone, right?

Stay focused on YOU and the positives.

Your post about how DB has helped you really resonated with me. Everyone here told me when I first got here that DB was for me. And you know what? It has changed my life.

Focusing on what I CAN control, and committing to becoming a better person for ME and my D, has been an amazing benefit to come out of this. That's huge.

Hang in there!


Me 38 H 40
D 3
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Keep going ss. I have faith in u!!!

Also, hijack alert. Claire.... could u look at my thread :-)


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
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Thanks Claire, bashy. I appreciate the encouragement. Stinking thinking gets me no where. It's clear I'm afraid. Afraid my efforts are going unnoticed and/or being misinterpreted which is an old way of thinking of mine. I used to stop making progress on change because I thought "well he doesn't notice anyway or appreciate how hard this is so who cares?!" but 1) that clearly didn't work, 2) credit for the work only happens in school, this is life and sometimes the RESULTS from the hard work is all you're measured on, I need to put on my big girl panties, 3) *I* am noticing the work and the results and that really matters, 4) he is probably totally noticing but not trusting that they're real and meaningful and substantive and permanent. Whew. No more expecting credit for the work. The work is for ME. ::sigh:: Onward.

I took d out yesterday with friends and we had an insanely good time. H got some alone time to be lazy and that's something he never used to get. Not being resentful while he's chilling on the couch and I'm dealing with a spastic 6 year old is new for me. I was completely in the moment, enjoyed every second and felt no jealousy, resentment or frustration. This is good. I'm not keeping score. Gotta make that habitual!

H and I also spoke this morning on how to advocate for our daughter's education as a team. She's going into second grade but is bored out of her mind. I've been supplementing at home with more advanced work but I'm no teacher. I'm doing the best I can but h and I feel the school could do more. She was recently tested at reading WAY above her grade level and we want the school to better support her with that. This is something I would normally fight alone but h asked me to make an appointment with the principal on a day that he could also attend. I expressed my thoughts and fears (her being bored, that leading to class disruption and behavior problems, the severe lack of challenge, not more work but deeper work for her, etc) and he agrees wholeheartedly. He suggested he take the lead (which I always did) and will allow him to do because he and I are on the same page!! This is HUGE for us and I want to show him that I trust his words and methods by letting him take the lead. What a great feeling! Here's hoping it's a productive conversation and the principal doesn't stalemate us.

Last night h told me he thinks he found an apartment. Hearing that didn't feel good but it didn't send me into a tailspin like it did last week or the week before. Small victories, right? He said it's very local and expensive but that it allows for shorter term leases like 3 or 6 months. I'm taking that as a good sign, that he's not looking for 1 year leases on a condo. Is that me in denial? Maybe he's looking for shorter leases because he's planning to still go through with the d? Ugh. Overthinking. It's hard to not analyze all of this and wonder if the positive signs I'm looking for are actually there or am I making them appear because I'm looking so hard for them. Oy. If I wasn't crazy before, DBing has gotten me there, but I'm still grateful.

One day at a time. ::sigh::


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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I could really use some feedback here.

It think I'm doing a fair job of following Sandi's rules and being a woman anyone would be a fool to leave. H and I have gotten along wonderfully lately and that feels great. I guess I just keep doing what I'm doing?

He'll be moving out soon. Today we talked about what furniture he plans to take with him and where he'll find a bed for d. He did say he was preferring to rent this one place that already had a washer/dryer and fridge because he'd hate to spend big money on appliances if he could be back after 3-6 months. We talked about what we'd tell d, too, and maybe I paid too much attention but what he wants to say now is completely different than what he wanted to say 1-2 weeks ago.

I'm scared because I've made some changes and I know he notices but doesn't trust them or their longevity, I get that, but I feel like it's not going to get much better, you know? My outward behavior is significantly different and I've noticed his has changed significantly too. He is MUCH less negative (though I wouldn't say he's positive), he's listening more, respectful, and hilarious (he's always been hilarious though). I guess it comes down to my changes radiating so he can see that they're real and not lip service and in the mean time I'll dig deeper, do more 180s, GAL and try super hard to be more patient through this separation transition.

Am I on the right track here? I need some reassurance. I'm not needy with h but apparently I'm needy with your feedback. Gah!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Right now if he is acting that way towards you, then keep going with what you are doing. Im telling you from experience that my W was saying things along the same lines, making plans for the future that didnt include me. The best thing you can do is put on your happy face, even offer some minor suggestions on things that he is doing. Its good that he is leaving the door open, the 3-6 months comment. Dont overreact to that though, just brush it off. You are calm and cool and youre planning on living without him right now.

He notices your changes Im sure. Dont worry about that feeling that it isnt going to get any better. The more you stay consistent with the changes, the more he will be able to trust them. Just continue on with them. If he is making some noticeable changes also then it is possible that those are driven by your changes that he sees. You know the answer to all of this, but I think you just wanted some reassurances. Youre doing it right, keep going!


M:33
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All i can say is that I've been at it for 9 months. My H still (usually) wears his ring, at least in front of me, we are still married on Fb, all our finances are still joint.

Not one word about a possible reconciliation, but moving pretty slowly towards D. I will take that as a positive.

It is a marathon, not a sprint. Maybe an iron man marathon, in some cases!


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Originally Posted By: ss06
I could really use some feedback here.

It think I'm doing a fair job of following Sandi's rules and being a woman anyone would be a fool to leave. H and I have gotten along wonderfully lately and that feels great. I guess I just keep doing what I'm doing?


The alternative is to do what, go back to what we know does NOT work?

Think about the implication of your question. Either you want to quit now b/c it's too hard, or---what I fear you are asking is--

"when can I ask/push him to come home? When can I make him do what I want him to do?"

And the answer to that is "YOU don't".

You let him come to you when HE trusts that your changes are real, and permanent AND when he feels he can retrieve his feelings for you....

you have ALMOST no control over that...I say "almost" b/c we do know ways you can wreck your chances...don't we?

So the short answer is you do not push for more -- and you keep doing what is working,

which is being kind and NOT criticizing him and being in the moment too, not maneuvering to get your way or trying to control the outcome, not forcing him to parent the way you parent, or to order what you'd order,

and letting him be a father, not an accessory to the mother.

So, You Stay the course. Make sense?



He'll be moving out soon. Today we talked about what furniture he plans to take with him and where he'll find a bed for d. He did say he was preferring to rent this one place that already had a washer/dryer and fridge because he'd hate to spend big money on appliances if he could be back after 3-6 months. We talked about what we'd tell d, too, and maybe I paid too much attention but what he wants to say now is completely different than what he wanted to say 1-2 weeks ago.

I'm scared because I've made some changes and I know he notices but doesn't trust them or their longevity, I get that, but I feel like it's not going to get much better, you know? My outward behavior is significantly different and I've noticed his has changed significantly too.

And so, you think with TIME it won't make any difference? You think a week or two of decent behavior is enough to know what he'll want? I do not agree.
Remember the 'math' of it? Do the math...

consistent change + sufficient time = change HE can believe in....


Keep on with the changes. In TIME you'll see if his heart softens but it will take TIME. A general "rule" (which means it'[s a ball park IDEA of time) is that about a month of new contrasting behavior is needed, to counter every year of mistreatment you had.

So if you were married for 10 years and treated him poorly the whole time, that means you don't even bother looking for a softened manner in him, for 10 months...a month for every year, of behavior that you want to "un-do".

This means you must be as patient as you have ever been, and THEN, you must multiply your patience by 1064 times...and then maybe you'll be patient enough.

Okay? I hope things keep solidifying and improving. IT's not a linear process, so remember that too.


He is MUCH less negative (though I wouldn't say he's positive), he's listening more, respectful, and hilarious (he's always been hilarious though).

Wow, this is great...but notice, notice....You begin well with the observations but then, Note the negative caveats above^^...

you can just say "he's less negative" or "he's more positive"

rather than Though I wouldn't say he[s positive"...do you see that? And he's hilarious does not need to be followed by a comment that says "though he was already hilarious"....See, you are lessening/negating the praise even as you give it.


So, just be MINDFUL of that little stuff -b/c it adds up to big stuff.

The term "mindfulness" is very in vogue lately. I think it's a great word.

To me, Being "mindful" helps us live life with more clarity and intention

, not just falling over factors, ('in love'), or into a new life or job or home or relationship, but to live on an intentional course we lay out for ourselves and follow.

That's how we need to live. Now you are more mindful of being in the moment, feeling some JOY- and that's huge.

You could really pull this off if you can stay the course.


I guess it comes down to my changes radiating so he can see that they're real and not lip service

Yes absolutely AND also b/c you are showing him, you are modeling for him, some

"TO DO" beliefs, some GOOD positive attitudes and behaviors...and he may be starting to trust that you are really changing.

But it'[s SO EARLY right now that I would not trust HIM - Changing his mind on anything at this point.

If he said "Oh, you have changed w and now I'm fine and will stay"---

I would NOT trust ^^that!
I would know he just caved in from fear, and would leave home again, soon...as soon as the next conflict comes. And you will have conflict...

He cannot change back that fast, and mean it.

So don't rush him b/c of your fears, or you will do that at your own peril.

Get yourself some conflict resolution skills and new tools for communication ASAP. And

Let HIM take his time, let him have the space and distance to SEE who you are becoming and what he'll be missing...

so you can both be sure of what you are doing. D

o not rush this or he'll bolt, and then it'll be a lot more likely to be over.



and in the mean time I'll dig deeper, do more 180s, GAL and try super hard to be more patient through this separation transition.

Are you seeing a good solution based Therapist? You need to, and you need some conflict resolution skills. Those are big items but without them, no marriage will last, let alone with your history.

You need new positive role models for you to handle so when you next feel stress you do not revert to your old ways IT's one thing to know what NOT to do, but in times of crisis it's so easy to revert, you must get replacement models for what TO DO in crisis or stress. What do healthy happy people do when they are furious?

Things like that are key for you to get while you are calm and relatively happy.

Am I on the right track here? I need some reassurance. I'm not needy with h but apparently I'm needy with your feedback. Gah!


You are on the right track and surely you know it. grin


But stay the course. Your option would be, what, to ruin things by demanding more? You wanted to say "hey, I changed for a whole week.So forget the past 5 years and STAY NOW!!"

I mean, is that what you'd propose? I thought not...so stay the course and get those tools while you have this gift of time.

And detach. BTW, How are your GAL?

We hammer them b/c they work and you need to focus on something and someone OTHER than your h and marriage.

Later on I'll post some GAL that helped me and they were NOT easy but they sure paid off.

make sense?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
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DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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In the time between Clair and you posted, 25, I went and did some serious thinking. Patience. Patience is a big weak spot with me. You knew that long before I did, huh? Well, I'm figuring that out. I'm good at one day at a time as long as I don't have to do it for too long. Lol. Big realization. The fact is, I could use patience in every aspect of my life right now and long into perpetuity. I'm waiting to hear about 8 jobs I've submitted my resume on, bring on the patience. My daughter, bring on the patience. This separation, bring on patience. Myself, patience. Other relationships, patience. I need it and this is the opportunity to learn how to get it.

Detaching is tough. I have a habit of going cold upon detachment. I need to learn to lovingly detach. Any advice in that department? I'm GAL but admittedly it's not enough. I made a list tonight of things to look into (calligraphy classes, to teach a photography class and photo editing class, cooking classes, book club, maybe a mommy and me book club,). Most of my friends are mothers so getting out is hard for them. I get to yoga about twice a week but I need to take more evening classes instead of h seeing me sit on the couch on my iPad while I'm on divorcebusting.com (he doesn't see the screen but still). I'm going to visit my BFF in SF next week. She just had her first baby and I'm photographing the baby and family so that week away will be some good GAL. What else? I'm sitting at home and reading too much. I'd LOVE to hear your suggestions for GAL. I need all the help in that department I can get.

Patience. Detaching with love. That's what I'm working on. As always 25, I appreciate you dropping by. You help keep me calm and on my path. I need to learn how to do that myself. Again, patience.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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hi ss06, I've just read your thread, and though I don't have much to add, I see a lot of similarities of myself in you, and I'm learning too that one of my biggest lessons in this journey is patience, I'm terrible at it, but getting better each day, and stopping the negative self talk, if I let that nasty negative voice take over, it throws me for a loop.

you're doing great and we're all here for you, big hugs, and also 25mlc is awesome!! smile

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SS,

your GAL list is a great start. I think without GAL, detachment is nearly impossible.

For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter.
I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL).

We also knew no one when we moved there, and since I had no job upon arrival, GAL was really the catalyst for making friends.

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & getting out of your comfort zone, & you'll be well on your way to living a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your h.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team for two summers (my older D was on it).

I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people.
I got cast, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)

I loved riding.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

I edited a hunting book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me.

Plus, I'd just had our last child & I needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of their LONG winters.

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for ME to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club, after 15 years of active duty & ignoring them.
(I only wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group (ended up having something I wrote, produced).

Took a class in Conversational French

Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.
Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

Hope that helps.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Here are 2 pieces on DETACHMENT

The first one is a piece on Detaching, from long ago...I think a DBer named Peanut posted this originally...


I. Detachment


Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.

Our ego gets wounded when we are not detached enough -- and then we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

We cannot control the actions of another.

We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal and it is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want, so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."


Here is another piece on Detachment which MAY clear it up some for you...


2). What is detachment?


Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S (spouse) the freedom to be himself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix my S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be himself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Willingness to accept that I cannot change or control or "fix" S. Admitting that it is not my job, duty or even loving, to try and change/control or "fix" my S.

* Developing and maintaining of a safe, emotional distance from S, to whom I have previously given a lot of power to affect my emotional outlook on life.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, with whom I have become overly enmeshed or dependent, in order that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not be led by guilt to feel responsible for S's failure or faltering. Allow S to experience & learn from failure, without my judgement or comment.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective, recognizing that there Can be a need to back away from the uncontrollable and unchangeable realities of life.

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to experience greater emotional devastation from involvement with S.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions, even if their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he "really is" rather than who I "want him to be."

* Ability to avoid being hurt, abused, taken advantage of by S who in the past has been overly dependent or enmeshed with me.

xxxxxxxxxxxx


Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 07/29/14 08:43 PM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Wow. You are an incredible resource and wealth of information! Thank you for all of this information. Detaching is more about protecting me, it seems. Man, I'll need to practice this a lot. Many DB techniques are starting to feel natural to me but detaching is HARD! Broken down in pieces like it is above REALLY helps with the nuance of it. I can't wait to get started.

I am full of excuses regarding GAL. I don't want to spend the money. Babysitting is difficult to coordinate. My friends are all busy. I just applied for a ton of jobs and if I sign up for a class I won't have time for it once the job starts.... Blah, blah, blah. I'm a master of resistance, huh? Sheesh.

Ok. Enough inertia.

P.s. I think I'm going to need to pick some peoples' brains about cake eating and boundary setting. H is planning to move out and we plan to keep the visitation schedule with d rather flexible BUT he seems to be under the impression that he can just come and go as he pleases despite the separation and him having his own place. I would like to make the separation more firm so he can't just drop by and get some tv time or print something off the printer anytime he pleases. It's not his home anymore. Is this a battle that sounds reasonable to pick? If so, I'm going to need to tread very carefully because I'm expecting the "but it's my house, too! If I need something I'm going to get it." Confrontation. Yikes!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
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Originally Posted By: ss06
Wow. You are an incredible resource and wealth of information! Thank you for all of this information. Detaching is more about protecting me, it seems. Man, I'll need to practice this a lot. Many DB techniques are starting to feel natural to me but detaching is HARD! Broken down in pieces like it is above REALLY helps with the nuance of it. I can't wait to get started.

I am full of excuses regarding GAL. I don't want to spend the money. Babysitting is difficult to coordinate. My friends are all busy. I just applied for a ton of jobs and if I sign up for a class I won't have time for it once the job starts.... Blah, blah, blah. I'm a master of resistance, huh? Sheesh.

Ok. Enough inertia.



Your resistance to change is a big part of the reason you are here. Don't forget that.

The more you alter that trait, the sooner the other changes will happen, without as much of a big deal being made about them. Change will be something you will learn to be comfortable with, in time. Starting with smaller things might help you when you get to the big internal changes coming.

Make sense?



P.s. I think I'm going to need to pick some peoples' brains about cake eating and boundary setting. H is planning to move out and we plan to keep the visitation schedule with d rather flexible BUT he seems to be under the impression that he can just come and go as he pleases despite the separation and him having his own place.

Make sure you know the line between healthy self respect/boundary setting, and you being punitive or "teaching him a lesson" b/c it's NOT your job to teach your h a lesson. Life does that.

It's not your job to "Show him the consequences of his choices", life does that.
Boundaries are about limits on YOU, not about controlling him.

This is a key concept to understand or all your "boundary" setting will come off as more rule making and "decrees" from you, trying to control HIM/HIS behavior instead of your own. Your tone sounds, at times, as if you want to punish him for leaving you and you want to make it harder on him. That's not a consistent vibe in your post but I fear it'll sound like it to him AND parts of it sound that way to ME.

A boundary might be you saying "I won't be spoken to like that" and then when someone is overtly disrespectful to you, YOU LEAVE the room. VERSUS telling them they "must use a whispered respectful tone with you", which is about you controlling THEM and Not about what YOU will do.

It may seem like semantics, and my example is a small one but can you sees the difference?

B/C if you make it about what YOU will tolerate/not tolerate, that's one thing. The focus is on YOUR changes and YOUR reaction, NOT about telling him what to do or feel.


I would like to make the separation more firm so he can't just drop by and get some tv time or print something off the printer anytime he pleases. It's not his home anymore.

Be clear about your motivation here^^^....you want to Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth, right? Then don't make it harder for him to come home than it already will be, for him.

You essentially admit you checked out of the marriage years ago and have been "a monster" to him for quite some time. IF you are not sure where you stand on something, do NOT fall on your sword for it and make darn sure you choose your battles wisely.

IF I were in your shoes, I'd err on the more flexible side of things. I'd suggest he can come by when he wants to see your d WITH some notice, & "for now" -that's all you'll need.

That will leave the idea that "later on" if a Div does happen, he'll need to plan more in advance b/c spontaneous events do get lost in those situations.

You can create a little mystery about your "plans for then" but be careful of denying him access to your D, b/c that can get used against you in court. IF it's not happening, then that's great. But I'd bet his L will ask him if you make it harder to see her, than it has to be....so be ready for that question too.

Is this a battle that sounds reasonable to pick? If so, I'm going to need to tread very carefully because I'm expecting the "but it's my house, too! If I need something I'm going to get it." Confrontation. Yikes!


I don't know that it's a wise battle to pick. At most, at this point, I would probably just ask for some notice. Remember, you're trying to keep the road home, paved and smooth. And as i said, saying 'it's not his home anymore" does not sound like something you want to solidify in his mind and heart, is it?

The more you challenge his choices, the more you force him to defend them. And by making him "pay" for leaving, you force him to see the upside of leaving too, like not being told anything, by you...

And when you tell him he has to give notice (24 hours notice to see his D might come off as too formal and harsh AT THIS POINT b/c it's what landlords have to do to see their tenant's house...do you want that type of relationship with your h??)

Anyhow, if you do set some limit, it must be done with an absolutely KIND expression on your face, an almost sedated tone in your speech, and not as if you expect a fight.

I say these thingss^^^ b/c I suspect your tone is frequently annoyed or furious sounding, to him. IF so, you have to almost over compensate now. And please do check into that workshop Essential Experience in Philadelphia. (Don't confuse it with others that have similar names). I think you'd get major tools for changing your life with great specific techniques for change within, AND you'll feel a lot better about YOU and forgiveness...

Even if you cannot go now (the sooner the better, seriously), learn about it so you can someday attend, it's truly powerful and profound and concrete.

Hang in there.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
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Once again, 25, thank you.

I am really looking at my resistance habits. Why is it more comfortable to me than the change itself? I'm dedicated to change and actually enjoy the process of self examination and discovery though it feels difficult to get into the grove and to see through the muddy waters. I need more clarity. I'm looking into meditating nightly so I can perhaps clear away the mud and look at myself more clearly.

Secondarily, the old me would definitely have "poked the bear" with punitive requirements and attempt to teach him a lesson but that doesn't get me anywhere, so I'm not doing that anymore. AND, it would never be over our daughter, I wouldn't ever keep him from her or her from him. One of the things I'm working on is showing him that I trust him without question with regard to decisions he has to make about her without me present. There are thousands of ways for me to show that but I have zero intention of teaching him a lesson by withholding his daughter from him. Not cool and doesn't help anyone. Not even on my radar. He's a great father, when I give him a freaking chance to be one. It's good practice for me to get out of the way. When I was asking about being more firm regarding the separation I meant more small things like he's looking for a belt or needs toilet paper and somehow I'm supposed to bend over backwards to make it available to him. Otherwise I fully intend to be reasonable, grounded, understanding and cooperative in every way possible simply because we both deserve that.

Your suspicion about my tone, 25, is accurate as far as how it USED to be. I was often shrill and shrewy and I have 180'd that with great results. Frankly, I was getting sick of hearing my own voice like that. I do not raise my voice, I speak calmly and positively, with ZERO inflection of frustration, anxiety, anger, sadness, annoyance. I know this will just take constant practice for it to become habit. I am also phrasing things MUCH better, taking time to practice in my head so there is no accusation or misinterpretation of accusation. It's going over quite well.

I made ONE mistake yesterday when H said it was SIL's birthday I noticed he popped open Facebook to send her wishes. I said, "She'd probably appreciate at least a text rather than a public FB message" and the second it came out of my mouth I regretted it. So, I apologized, immediately said how he wishes to extend his birthday wishes to his SIL is completely up to him and I will commence shutting up now. He laughed and I left the room to think about how quickly those words came out without a filter that I'm so carefully trying to create right now. I concluded that I need to STOP and breathe before I say ANYTHING. I need to be more mindful and ask myself if I am improving on the silence. Lesson learned but I think ONE mistake in almost 2 weeks is pretty good. I'm proud that I recognized it immediately and owned it immediately. More practice is needed on this though. Much more.

I have checked out Essential Experience workshop in PA but the website is very vague. Can you be more specific on what I could pick up there? Living in CA it's quite a ways to travel and since I know very little about it, I'd like to know more before considering it. I'm all for learning more about myself and am open to various ways of doing so but I'm pretty sure H would tell me I'm becoming cultish if I fly across the country for something I know little about. You know? Also, 25, could you recommend any books you think would be helpful for me? I never, ever want to go back to the person I was a month ago and I'm liking the changes I'm making. I can always use more enlightenment in this area, though. Always.

On a separate note, I need to talk to H about something very serious to me and I want to get opinions to ensure that it's not accusatory, implying I don't trust him, or condescending in ANY way.

Brief backstory: He offered to take D to camp this morning. I'm 99% sure he took his own car which, at the moment does not have a car seat. If he drove our daughter to camp without a car seat I'm very upset. She's not even close to being at a height or weight to being permitted to sit in just the back seat for even the short drive to school. Chances are good he probably thought, "oh, just this one time, real quick, no biggie" but it's a big deal to me. Here's my plan:

First I want to give him the 1% benefit of the doubt and ask if he maybe took MY car to drop her off in which case, nothing else needs to be said because she would have been in a car seat. If he says No, then here's what I want to say:

I noticed the car seat from your car is still in the garage. Did D not sit in a car seat on the way to camp this morning?

If he says, no she didn't, I was in a rush, blah, blah, blah... I will say,

Oh, I see. I understand being in a rush and feeling frantic when dropping d off in the morning. It is really important to me that she be safe in the car at all times so is there anything I can do to make sure the car seat gets installed into your car again?

How's that? Thoughts??


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
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Separation: 8/11/14

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I've rethought addressing h about the car seat. It was a one time thing, he doesn't need me to tell him a car seat is required. He knows that. I'm STFU.


M: 37 H: 36
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D: 7
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Originally Posted By: ss06
Once again, 25, thank you.

I am really looking at my resistance habits. Why is it more comfortable to me than the change itself?

well, speaking for myself, I wanted to be "right" a lot. It seemed important to me back then, and subconsciously maybe even more imporatn than being happy, though I never thought of it that way. Maybe I equated the two...

but I learned that what I had done, even when I thought "it's RIGHT" and "don't reward his bad behavior" (by being kind and warm and loving when he comes home, after "selfishly" volunteering for an extra case),

it took getting HERE, to realize that my approach had been consistently FAILING for years...so how smart was I??

I mean, "right or wrong" --- if what you do isn't helping, then you are "wrong" for continuing in a fruitless manner!

And you know, in the end, for the most part I was wrong a lot more in the first place, than I realized...for a long time. So I relate to where you are. And encourage you to keep on your path.


I'm dedicated to change and actually enjoy the process of self examination and discovery though it feels difficult to get into the grove and to see through the muddy waters. I need more clarity. I'm looking into meditating nightly so I can perhaps clear away the mud and look at myself more clearly.


That^^ is precisely why I suggested the workshop "EE". It gave me clarity and helps me live my life with intention. (More on that later)



Secondarily, the old me would definitely have "poked the bear" with punitive requirements and attempt to teach him a lesson but that doesn't get me anywhere, so I'm not doing that anymore.


WHAT GOOD NEWS!! Isn't it a tad embarrassing to realize that "teaching him a lesson" is something MANY friends still do and encourage us to do --- and that WE did for so long, as adults? And to our husbands?

Don't go back to that...for anything.


AND, it would never be over our daughter, I wouldn't ever keep him from her or her from him. One of the things I'm working on is showing him that I trust him without question with regard to decisions he has to make about her without me present.

Glad you see & Undertand the importance of this^^^^. Unless you TRULY fear for her life, say nothing to him about how to raise her. I mean it. And btw, saying "a jelly bean gives her a tummy ache" is NOT fearing for her life...so don't even go there.

I once handed over our infant son to h when s was VERY fussy & VERY cranky, and I had to study for the bar exam. H was in medical school (yes, our son was "premature" by a few years...)

As I went upstairs, the baby suddenly STOPPED fussing - and I was scared that h had snapped or something (no he never had but the baby was new and we were new parents and who knows what I was thinking???) So I came storming down the stairs to intervene.

When I rounded the corner I saw h twirling the seat our son was in, with his foot, while reading his textbook.

Son was laughing and cooing and LOVING it!! For sure, it's not something I, as his mom, would ever have done. And so what??

On a related note, I wanted to intercede when h was trying to soothe our colicky infant son, b/c it was taking too long (in MY head).

H didn't yet know about "rocking" son, versus "swaying" or bouncing with him, etc but the words of my older sister came to me then, thank God,

and they were "the father has to get to know his child without you around or he'll never learn to soothe or comfort the baby in his way, b/c YOU will do that or he'll have to do it your way - instead of discovering his own" and she was right.

H learned how-- within a few minutes of me STFU and backing off.


Lesson learned but keep reminding yourself that if it is not TRULY and LITERALLY Life threatening, there is NO NEED for you to intervene.

Seriously, your Intervening has not helped your d the way you once thought, b/c you are in the midst of a possible divorce about how you speak to your h---- so, backing off is what is best for HER, (and you, and him)...



There are thousands of ways for me to show that but I have zero intention of teaching him a lesson by withholding his daughter from him. Not cool and doesn't help anyone. Not even on my radar. He's a great father, when I give him a freaking chance to be one. It's good practice for me to get out of the way.

Good insights.^^^



When I was asking about being more firm regarding the separation I meant more small things like he's looking for a belt or needs toilet paper and somehow I'm supposed to bend over backwards to make it available to him.


are you SURE you are expected to "bend over backwards" for him, or is that how YOU are interpreting his searches? Don't mind read negatively.

ASK him what he wants or needs from you at those times...and do it "sedately", if you KWIM.


Otherwise I fully intend to be reasonable, grounded, understanding and cooperative in every way possible simply because we both deserve that.

Your suspicion about my tone, 25, is accurate as far as how it USED to be. I was often shrill and shrewy and I have 180'd that with great results. Frankly, I was getting sick of hearing my own voice like that. I do not raise my voice, I speak calmly and positively, with ZERO inflection of frustration, anxiety, anger, sadness, annoyance. I know this will just take constant practice for it to become habit. I am also phrasing things MUCH better, taking time to practice in my head so there is no accusation or misinterpretation of accusation. It's going over quite well.

Excellent.



I made ONE mistake yesterday when H said it was SIL's birthday I noticed he popped open Facebook to send her wishes. I said, "She'd probably appreciate at least a text rather than a public FB message" and the second it came out of my mouth I regretted it. So, I apologized, immediately said how he wishes to extend his birthday wishes to his SIL is completely up to him and I will commence shutting up now. He laughed and I left the room to think about how quickly those words came out without a filter that I'm so carefully trying to create right now.

I'm glad he laughed! Good for both of you. I Hope you will laugh at yourself in a healthy way (= don't take yourself too seriously and SHOW him the new HAPPIER you!!)

Oh, and SIDE NOTE: I would think the SIL would PREFER the public notice of her birthday, as opposed to a private message hiding it from others...

I only say this to point out how WE both assume we are "Right---about the original thing" ---but there is room for disagreement, so we need to back off that much more...b/c thinking we are "right about IT", and realizing we really aren't so right so often,
means we're even goofier for stubbornly clinging to our stance!!


I concluded that I need to STOP and breathe before I say ANYTHING. I need to be more mindful and ask myself if I am improving on the silence. Lesson learned but I think ONE mistake in almost 2 weeks is pretty good. I'm proud that I recognized it immediately and owned it immediately. More practice is needed on this though. Much more.


SO Well done!!. And he seems to have noticed ---which will confuse him and he will DOUBT your changes will last b/c he FEARS they won't last. That's what all WAS's fear...

That he will be hurt again by you. So again, give this TIME...and then a whole lot more and on, do NOT point out your changes. Then they'll look like "tactics" meant just to get him back and not true genuine changes you chose to make b/c you want to become a woman only a fool would leave......


I have checked out Essential Experience workshop in PA but the website is very vague. Can you be more specific on what I could pick up there?
\\


Sure. (AND You can call them & ask, too)

To me It's clarifying and gets you to dig VERY deep. It's "experiential" --which means not a lot of lectures. So you are in exercises designed to help you discover your issues and obstacles, and then how to manage or work thru them.

For ME, that's key, b/c as a lawyer, I can "edit" or "rehearse" my answers without even knowing I"m doing it. So this helped me see my real self in a safe supportive environment. (No one forces you to disclose either, btw).

And no, there are no "cult" aspects. I live in southern California and know exactly what you mean by that, so I promise you, no worshiping of a 'guru" goes on. And though I found it spiritual, it's not religious.

PowerOfNow, StubbornDyke, AutumnLeaves, LuckyLuke, and some other DBers have also gone so you can ask them if you like. -- I think PowerofMow went last Feb, and Luke went in the summer (?) so check their posts then if you can, or contact them. --

Also the people there can house you if you prefer, (and if you add up the hours of help you get,-->50+, it's actually quite a bargain ---. ) so that lowers costs too.

Maybe we can meet on the alternate universe and touch base about it there...(fb)


Living in CA it's quite a ways to travel and since I know very little about it, I'd like to know more before considering it. I'm all for learning more about myself and am open to various ways of doing so but I'm pretty sure H would tell me I'm becoming cultish if I fly across the country for something I know little about. You know?

I hear you, but so you know, I did it years ago and have gone back since then to do "team" and help other participants. I even flew back in there, from Alaska, to help. And my bf's went from there too, so obviously I think it's worth it.

I'm still impressed that she went based solely on my suggesting it, which is no small amount of trust.

When I got home from doing it the first time, h picked me up at the airport & he later told me he "SAW the difference" in me.

A few months later, HE chose to go himself and that is a small miracle I never expected. He told me when he returned home, that it was "the best gift [he] ever received"...

A year later, we went together as team helpers and it was like a free refresher course (which also adds to the value, btw) and man, we thought our marriage was good before...once we did EE together, we hit a new deeper level than I had thought was possible.



Also, 25, could you recommend any books you think would be helpful for me? I never, ever want to go back to the person I was a month ago and I'm liking the changes I'm making. I can always use more enlightenment in this area, though. Always.

Have you finished reading Div Remedy and or Div Busting? IF so, also read the Five Love Languages. It's not a hard read but it's a good reminder NOT to toss away love b/c it's not wrapped the way we wanted it to be wrapped. Marianne Willliamson writes too new agey for some, but I like her writings about forgiveness, a lot. Same with anger and our learning to handle it. And "The Gift of Change" was good too. '

I will ponder that some more, but meanwhile...

--- watch those videos on TED Talks, by Amy Cuddy and Shawn Achor. One is on "Faking it til you Become it' (Amy's) and "Positive Psychology" by Shawn. They are entertaining in their explanations but they have great DATA too, that supports their thesis, so listen up and think about it. Their videos are about 20 min each and you'll get a lot out of them and maybe their books as well.



On a separate note, I need to talk to H about something very serious to me and I want to get opinions to ensure that it's not accusatory, implying I don't trust him, or condescending in ANY way.

I will get back to this (below) later on b/c I am going out the door atm.

Hang in there.


Brief backstory: He offered to take D to camp this morning. I'm 99% sure he took his own car which, at the moment does not have a car seat. If he drove our daughter to camp without a car seat I'm very upset. She's not even close to being at a height or weight to being permitted to sit in just the back seat for even the short drive to school. Chances are good he probably thought, "oh, just this one time, real quick, no biggie" but it's a big deal to me. Here's my plan:

First I want to give him the 1% benefit of the doubt and ask if he maybe took MY car to drop her off in which case, nothing else needs to be said because she would have been in a car seat. If he says No, then here's what I want to say:

I noticed the car seat from your car is still in the garage. Did D not sit in a car seat on the way to camp this morning?

If he says, no she didn't, I was in a rush, blah, blah, blah... I will say,

Oh, I see. I understand being in a rush and feeling frantic when dropping d off in the morning. It is really important to me that she be safe in the car at all times so is there anything I can do to make sure the car seat gets installed into your car again?

How's that? Thoughts??

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 07/31/14 05:05 AM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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ss, this may not be popular opinion in terms of DBing, but I think your daughter's safety is worth bringing up and trumps your H's feelings. I wouldn't want to give the impression that that was okay going forward, and I think there are ways to handle it that don't have to lead to accusations or issues.

What about something like, "I understand being in a rush and not having time to deal with her seat in the moment. Is there a time in the near future that we could install the seat in your car so that you don't have to worry about it anymore and things will be a bit easier in the morning?" That way there's no insinuation that you care about her safety and he doesn't and you're working together at a time that's convenient to fix the problem. Plus, it's framed in a way that's of benefit to him without you directly stepping in to fix the problem.


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Originally Posted By: ss06
I've rethought addressing h about the car seat. It was a one time thing, he doesn't need me to tell him a car seat is required. He knows that. I'm STFU.



I agree you ought to be quiet about this.

Another possibility IF you cannot get off this subject and if you start obsessing (which is something you need to work on I suspect --and that IS important, more important than the car seat once....)

but if so, then buy his car one.

But she's 7, right? So, how long does she need one legally? Don't forget that you might not even be "right" about this issue, let alone the need for you to tell him.

But he has told you that you do not trust him enough with his own d, right?

So try doing that...trusting him. Okay?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Originally Posted By: Meghan
ss, this may not be popular opinion in terms of DBing, but I think your daughter's safety is worth bringing up and trumps your H's feelings. I wouldn't want to give the impression that that was okay going forward, and I think there are ways to handle it that don't have to lead to accusations or issues.

WHO SAID HE DOES NOT HAVE A CAR SEAT? Not her.

Assumptions have gotten her in trouble before. They're negative...Hence the advice.

Plus, their d is 7 y/o, not 2...in many states she is not to be in a car seat at this age anyhow, depending on her size/weight.





What about something like, "I understand being in a rush and not having time to deal with her seat in the moment. Is there a time in the near future that we could install the seat in your car so that you don't have to worry about it anymore and things will be a bit easier in the morning?" That way there's no insinuation that you care about her safety and he doesn't


Oh BUT there is an insinuation AND You are ASSUMING a lot.

You are ASSUMING:

1) there is no car seat in his car; AND OR

2) that he won't get one; AND OR

3) that HE is worried about this, which we have no evidence of.

So it's feigned concern for "his worrying", in her thinly veiled way of controlling him, which he'll see thru in seconds.

You know, SHE can buy another car seat --- if all the fears and assumptions come true. OR if she cannot help but try to control him some more, which I hope isn't true. There is an opportunity here for a 180...

I think ONE short drive without a car seat (assuming all the worst fears about needing one AND not having one, come true) is NOT worth bringing up, given the givens here.

Divorce isn't good for their d either...So YES it's a chance I would take and yes, I'm a loving mother.

This is not a cross country trip, there is no evidence of him being a bad or careless driver , and even if all your assumptions are accurate about car seats and him lacking one, a lot of parents will not put their older kids in a car seat for a host of reasons, anyhow.

That's my .02


and you're working together at a time that's convenient to fix the problem. Plus, it's framed in a way that's of benefit to him without you directly stepping in to fix the problem.


Respectfully I disagree. I think she IS stepping in to fix the "problem" which may not even exist...

but I don't want to belabor the point. At worst, it's simply something he has not yet thought of and she could next time, ask right away if he needs "the car seat" but since she did not, this is an opportunity for her to step back and NOT act, for once.

But seriously, I really don't want to belabor this. There are bigger fish to fry and more serious issues to contend with. If this were a daily drive, it'd be different. (And that's still assuming negative things we do not know, which I can't stand to do here, AND SO...moving on....)

cool


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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So, the car seat thing...

Car seats of some kind ARE required for children up to 85 lbs and 4'9" tall in my state. My daughter is 52 lbs and 4' tall so she NEEDS a car seat.

I never said a word to him BUT he took her to karate today and when I got home told me that he put the car seat back in his car. He told me about the other morning where he didn't have the car seat and then said, "I just didn't want you to think I was making a habit out of carting our kid around with no consideration for her safety." I said, "oh, ok. Thanks for installing the seat back in your car." D.o.n.e. See? Resolved itself and I'm glad I STFU. Trust him. My new motto.

25, I want to go through your response line by line with my notebook because you always give me so much to think about and a perspective I hadn't considered before. Thank you though. I will call EE and look further into that. I can do introspection but I struggle with really digging deep. I'm sure I'd get a lot out if it.

On a separate note, h found an apartment. This makes me sad BUT my DB coach suggested I look for the small glimmering signs of positivity so I'm choosing to look at these:

1). He picked an apartment over the condo and house he was looking at BECAUSE he CAN break the lease if need be on the apt but he can't on the house or condo. I choose to see this as a sign that I'm confusing him because he's seeing promise in me but truly it's way too soon for him to trust my changes and I'm realistic about that. Just the idea that he's considering the length of the lease speaks volumes to me.

2). He said he did NOT pick the house or condo because he'd "have to buy all new appliances and that'd be awful if there's any possibility of my coming home after a few months". Ding, ding, ding!!

I'm not being delusional, right? These are real positives, right? Sure, he's moving out and I'd rather he stay but realistically he's working on himself, I'm working on myself and space to do that never hurt anyone, right? PMA!

On Monday I'm going to SF to visit my BFF who just gave birth to her first baby. I'm photographing the baby and family and playing "auntie" for 6 full days!! H gains access to his new rental apt on Tuesday while I'm gone so he said he'd move some stuff in while d is at camp during the day. We agreed NOT to talk to d until my return. I'm really anxious and sad about that. I really wished we could have avoided having to tell her (because in my wish, h wouldn't be moving out) but she's pretty astute so we really need to talk with her. Any advice in this area. I'm physically ill just thinking about it. frown

I talk to my DB coach on Saturday. This talk with d is consuming my thoughts but I'm trying to focus on enjoying myself while visiting my bestie.

I did something today that I've never done before. H said he'd pick d up from camp, feed her dinner and take her to karate. Normally I stick around to mentally double check and make sure he's where he needs to be on time and that he hasn't forgotten anything, etc. today, I packed up and read in the bookstore for FOUR hours, found a cafe and at dinner alone then hit Sprinkles cupcakes and brought some home. I have never just disappeared like that but in keeping with my 180, I knew h could handle anything that came his way so I let it go. I also GAL!! Two birds, one stone! Hurray for me!!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
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Originally Posted By: Ss06
So, the car seat thing...

Car seats of some kind ARE required for children up to 85 lbs and 4'9" tall in my state. My daughter is 52 lbs and 4' tall so she NEEDS a car seat.

I never said a word to him BUT he took her to karate today and when I got home told me that he put the car seat back in his car. He told me about the other morning where he didn't have the car seat and then said, "I just didn't want you to think I was making a habit out of carting our kid around with no consideration for her safety." I said, "oh, ok. Thanks for installing the seat back in your car." D.o.n.e. See? Resolved itself and I'm glad I STFU. Trust him. My new motto.


YAY!!!



25, I want to go through your response line by line with my notebook because you always give me so much to think about and a perspective I hadn't considered before. Thank you though. I will call EE and look further into that. I can do introspection but I struggle with really digging deep. I'm sure I'd get a lot out if it.

Introspection is great, but the "experiential" aspects of EE and the continuity one gets from working straight thru a weekend, instead of weekly sessions that can make our progress so fragmented, is a real advantage of weekend workshops
.

On a separate note, h found an apartment. This makes me sad BUT my DB coach suggested I look for the small glimmering signs of positivity so I'm choosing to look at these:

1). He picked an apartment over the condo and house he was looking at BECAUSE he CAN break the lease if need be on the apt but he can't on the house or condo. I choose to see this as a sign that I'm confusing him because he's seeing promise in me but truly it's way too soon for him to trust my changes and I'm realistic about that. Just the idea that he's considering the length of the lease speaks volumes to me.

2). He said he did NOT pick the house or condo because he'd "have to buy all new appliances and that'd be awful if there's any possibility of my coming home after a few months". Ding, ding, ding!!

I'm not being delusional, right? These are real positives, right? Sure, he's moving out and I'd rather he stay but realistically he's working on himself, I'm working on myself and space to do that never hurt anyone, right? PMA!


You are not being delusional. I see his comments as positives, absolutely. And if he changed his mind to come home this fast, I would not trust that he really believes he has worked on himself or that you have worked on you enough.

The chance of you reverting to old behaviors is, imo, LESS if you two take a break. I think he believes that too. As long as you see him once a week, it'll be easier (not harder) for him to notice your changes b/c you will NOT have ANY negative images to support his departure.

You will be contrasting his negative images with positive data he'll get from the interactions you two have, which will be easier for you to manage, by not having to be the new improve perfect you, 24/7 right away. Solidify your changes so when you two are together, you don't backslide. I think it's easier to make AND to notice changes in our spouses when we are not together ever minute.

Maybe it's just my PMA talking but it worked for me, and I think you have no choice now anyhow, so CHOOSE a PMA b/c it cannot hurt and it may be the positive difference you need.


On Monday I'm going to SF to visit my BFF who just gave birth to her first baby. I'm photographing the baby and family and playing "auntie" for 6 full days!! H gains access to his new rental apt on Tuesday while I'm gone so he said he'd move some stuff in while d is at camp during the day. We agreed NOT to talk to d until my return. I'm really anxious and sad about that. I really wished we could have avoided having to tell her (because in my wish, h wouldn't be moving out) but she's pretty astute so we really need to talk with her. Any advice in this area. I'm physically ill just thinking about it. frown


The advice we got from a family therapist was to stress to her what would NOT change in HER life, despite you two living apart. First off, she's not moving, right? And since you are NOT discussing divorce at this time, you do not tell her you are. You say you are "taking a break to work on getting along better" (Which is also true). "No one is talking about a divorce now".

And tell her if she's staying in the same school, neighborhood, church, that those things are STILL the same. Maybe the only difference is that "Daddy has an apartment now", but you are "Still a family". Be clear about when her dad will for sure see her (and then add times if it allows but make darn sure he IS available when dates are given in advance).

And don't fall apart. A lot of how she feels will mirror how YOU act. My attitude would be "concerned, but cautiously optimistic".

You are concerned b/c you know you Do have a lot of things to work on and you take it seriously, you are cautious for those reasons too. But you are also optimistic, b/c you feel you have already made some inroads and had some valuable insights, AND you Do have the desire to change.

If your h isn't closed minded to it, if he remains open to the chance that you two can repair your r, then it's a really important opportunity to become a close, happily m couple. Without this crisis and this change and all this effort, that probably would never have happened...

I talk to my DB coach on Saturday. This talk with d is consuming my thoughts but I'm trying to focus on enjoying myself while visiting my bestie.

I did something today that I've never done before. H said he'd pick d up from camp, feed her dinner and take her to karate. Normally I stick around to mentally double check and make sure he's where he needs to be on time and that he hasn't forgotten anything, etc. today, I packed up and read in the bookstore for FOUR hours, found a cafe and at dinner alone then hit Sprinkles cupcakes and brought some home. I have never just disappeared like that but in keeping with my 180, I knew h could handle anything that came his way so I let it go. I also GAL!! Two birds, one stone! Hurray for me!!


That is impressive!!! You know I wonder what your "pay off" was before when you micro managed everything. Hmm, needing to feel crucial? I doubt it was intentionally disrespectful to your h, but idk, was it intentional?

I think it was more about you wanting to feel vitally important AND OR b/c you have a strong need to be in control of things.

Did you say your childhood was chaotic? I tend to find more women who are controlling, come from homes where they had no control over what happened to them growing up...

no excuse, just a question about why, in the first place. IF you can identify what the pay off was or why the "need" for such mega management, you might find it easier to drop it off at the "Goodwill" b/c it's not serving you well anymore.

Food for thought. All in all, WELL DONE. You are not spending time defending your self and you are identifying things you must work on, pretty fast. You might turn this thing around.

And even if, by some chance, you don't, you're still so much better off not taking on the chores of the world. YOU will be happier after this ordeal, no matter what.

You will be a better woman for all this. No small thing.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
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That is impressive!!! You know I wonder what your "pay off" was before when you micro managed everything. Hmm, needing to feel crucial? I doubt it was intentionally disrespectful to your h, but idk, was it intentional?

I think it was more about you wanting to feel vitally important AND OR b/c you have a strong need to be in control of things.

[color:#6600CC]In response to this ^^^ above, I think my constant intervening with H when it came to things with our daughter began when she was VERY little. He was very flustered and forgetful when it came to her. He'd want to take her to the park at 12/13 months to play but he'd forget the diaper bag or a snack or a hat and then he'd come home sooner than he wanted saying it wasn't any fun because he was stressed out the whole time so I started trying to anticipate and "make things easier" by giving him everything he needed (diaper bag, snacks, drinks, sun screen, extra hats, outfit changes, etc) so it would be fun for them both which would allow me to relax at home and have a break which I desperately needed. If he was stressed and unprepared, then when he came home with her I'd have a lot to deal with (his stress, frustration, her tantrum, over tiredness, hunger, etc. He'd hand her to me screaming and he'd go off for a "break" after he just spent 1 hour alone with her. I felt abandoned and left to clean up the mess of his lack of planning/preparation so I took on the role of "preparer" so things would be easier for us both. It has just become habitual now. So if I say, "Would you be able to take d to piano on Tuesday" and he agrees to, he has NO IDEA that she needs to bring her book and her homework. D is almost 7 so some of the responsibility can fall on her but sometimes she'll grab her book but not the homework or she'll grab her karate uniform but not her belt... so I make sure it's all there so it's easier for everyone. It's HARD to let it go.

Part of the difficulty is that he doesn't really care that much if it's all there. HE doesn't care if she doesn't have her piano homework when he takes her because next week I'll take her and she'll have it then so to him the problem is solved. That thinking frustrates me. He will admit he's forgetful and suffers from severe ADHD. It has been a point of contention since d was born that lack of planning on his part becomes an emergency on my part.

I'm making a conscious effort to minimize the size of that issue for my own sake by letting as much go as I possibly can and I'm doing a pretty good job but the reality is, he fumbles the ball A LOT. He has done a great job the last two weeks and there will be setbacks. I can be less critical and I WILL because criticizing him doesn't solve the problem and only hurts our relationship - I've learned that. But how do I address my frustration with how much I need to help him help me? Asking him to take d to karate means just that to him. To take her. To me it includes packing water for her, making sure her uniform, belt and flip flops are all in a bag to she can change after camp, if it's the late class I'll pack a snack, bring something for myself to read during the class. You know! You're a mom, 25... this is mom 101 stuff. It's just not important to him.


Did you say your childhood was chaotic? I tend to find more women who are controlling, come from homes where they had no control over what happened to them growing up...

My brothers and I were horribly abused by my mother when we were kids and my father did nothing about it. Later my mother was charged with abuse and my father charged with neglect. I was removed from the home by DCS and placed in foster care. My parents picked up and fled the state so as not to have to reimburse the state for my care. They left me in CA at age 16 and moved back to Atlanta with my younger brother (my older brother was in college in PA). Does that explain things a little? No excuses, for sure. The micromanaging isn't serving me just as you say below, but I need his HELP and I feel that his half efforts make things harder on ME. Does that make sense?


no excuse, just a question about why, in the first place. IF you can identify what the pay off was or why the "need" for such mega management, you might find it easier to drop it off at the "Goodwill" b/c it's not serving you well anymore.

Food for thought. All in all, WELL DONE. You are not spending time defending your self and you are identifying things you must work on, pretty fast. You might turn this thing around.

And even if, by some chance, you don't, you're still so much better off not taking on the chores of the world. YOU will be happier after this ordeal, no matter what.

You will be a better woman for all this. No small thing.[/color] [/quote]

On a separate note, H is seeming very distant since yesterday. I'm trying to tell myself that everyone has their ups and downs and there's a lot going on right now, lots to think about and consider so on one hand, I understand. On the other hand it makes me nervous. Maybe my efforts toward change aren't going to be enough. Maybe he's depressed. Only time will tell and I'm committed to having patience but interpreting his quietness is hard. I asked him about it yesterday evening and he said he's just thinking a lot, which I get. I can only hope a tiny bit of hope is blooming in him and is quietness makes me doubt that's happening.

When I come back from SF next Saturday we are telling our daughter and he's officially moving into his apartment that night. That's going to be a rough night. Maybe that's what he's thinking about. If so, that'd make me quiet and pensive, too.

::sigh:: this process is HARD on the heart (and there's no OP in our mix so I know it could be MUCH harder). I just hope I'm strong enough for all of it.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Feeling really sad tonight. H went into work this morning, has been gone all day. At 6:15 he said he was having a scotch with a friend and would head home after that. Three hours later he's not home. No call to say goodnight to d. I texted to see if he was ok. He said he's fine but he got to talking and sipping and he's not sober enough to drive yet.

Ok, I'm glad he's not driving. That's good. But I'm leaving tomorrow morning for 6 days, he's been gone all day. It's just hitting me that it's pretty obvious he doesn't care much. That makes me sad.

The part that actually hurts the most is that my daughter doesn't even ask where he is anymore. He's always at work and rarely home to even tuck her into bed. I know he loves her but gosh, he's just not there for her. His taking her to karate or even to camp is a very new thing, only since BD. He is home maybe once every three weeks for dinner.

Do I even matter to him? I know he loves our d but he doesn't really seem to want to be involved with her.

He seems to just want to pursue his career. He's always at work, always "having a drink with the guys at the studio", working late.

It hurts. I'm sad.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Please drop by and lend some butt kicking words. I could really use some guidance and support. I'm starting to lose hope. I'm not feeling as buoyant as I was and it's frightening.

H drove me to the airport yesterday for my trip to SF to visit my bff. usually he just drops me off at skycap and that's that. This time he parked, walked me in, made sure I was situated and it seemed a little weird but I was appreciative and thanked him for helping me out with my bag and waiting with me to get it checked. The hug when he left was SUPER awkward. That hurts because I was in desperate need of a good hug but it was like hugging some dude I met yesterday.

He called me at D's bedtime so I could say goodnight. I asked about her day and all that. Somehow the subject of Zyrtec came up, she said something about how daddy gave her some. I had given her some that morning and it's a 24 hour med so she shouldn't have had more. H got on the phone and I told him she'd had some that morning, how much did he give her. He said 5 mL. I had given her 10 mL that morning and was worried because that's way too much. He got mad at D for not telling him (she's 6). I said, "Please call Poison Control". He got mad and said, "Oh, she's FINE!". I reacted and said, "Either you call or I'll call". He said, "ok" and hung up. He texted me a bit later saying poison control said she'd be fine. I thanked him for calling. This morning I texted him an apology saying, "I apologize for snapping at you yesterday. I was very worried and scared. I appreciate you calling poison control and taking care of that. What a good lesson for us both about communicating more about medicine. I could have done a much better job about that."

His response: "Indeed a good lesson, we'll both have to practice that one more."

I feel like I've lost my footing and I'm in a flat spin falling out of the sky. I feel like he absolutely HATES me. I don't think he's noticing my changes and even if he does, I know he doesn't believe their lasting. Why should he after I snapped at him like I did. I feel like I'm only as good as my last mistake.

I am really trying to get out of this mental hole I'm in. Visiting my friend and her new baby is helping me keep my mind off things but at the same time it's a startling reminder of how NOT helpful and supportive H was when our D was born.

My heart hurts and aches. I can't eat again and I'm not sleeping. I feel like anything I do just solidifies his belief that we're no good together. I know i need to do more but I feel like I'm floundering. I feel resentful of him and our situation. Yes, I know I had a HUGE part in putting us here and this time is necessary to get to a better place but I need to work through my resentment. It's not helping me but ignoring it isn't helping me either. I'm hurt, angry and very, very sad.

I need some 2x4s and support. How can I redirect my feelings to be more productive? I know i'm grasping because our separation is imminent and that makes me uncomfortable. I just want to scream and throw things and let him know that I HURT TOO but so much of our relationship was about my feelings and not his, at least that's how he feels and I need to honor that. Where do I put all this resentment and frustration?

I want us to work out down the road but right now I'm sitting at a huge road block. I have no idea how to navigate it. I'm feeling stuck. What next?


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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without having read more at the moment, let me post to you about detachment.


II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.

Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals. We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that I alone am responsible for how I act. I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."


And another piece on Detachment:


What is detachment? Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational, (or from what I perceive to be that way).

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S.

* Developing and maintaining a safe, emotional distance from S, to whom I have previously given too much power to affect my emotional outlook on life.

* Establishing emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us are better able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I can see S falter and or fail, and not be led by guilt to feel responsible for it.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing or controlling.

* Placement of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective; letting go of trying to control the uncontrollable, and or unchangeable realities of life.

* Ability to maintain self control & exercise emotional self-protection so as not to be more hurt by having a relationship run its' course, or from having hung on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for, accept personal responsibility for their own actions, even when when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who S "really is" rather than who I "want S to be."

* Ability to avoid being hurt, abused, taken advantage of by S, who in the past has been overly dependent or enmeshed with me.

Detachment is NOT "not caring what happens" it is NOT indifference, it is NOT coldness. Detachment is a form of freedom, including the freedom that belongs to others, freedom to soar to new heights or fall to new depths.

Detachment allows us to fail without affecting others, and allows others to fail without affecting US.


Hope this helps some...now, back to your thread...


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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I printed this out, 25, because I really struggle with detaching. I can't mentally figure out how to detach and still love. And are you supposed to remain detached while piecing and back together? Is that the healthy way to keep from becoming I meshed and codependent? Are you detached, 25, now that your marriage is on so,I'd ground? I can't wrap my head around that. I know it's what works in this stage I'm in so that I'm not looking too deeply at what is said or not said and focus on changes I need to make. That makes sense. In the next stage though, am I to remain detached? HOW do YOU do it, 25? I mean, it makes sense and sounds healthy and strong on paper but it's hard to execute for sure.

I totally can see how detaching can help me not react. I need that and KNOW it will help me. I just don't see how detaching works long term. I need to process this deeper... Or maybe just stop because I tend to overthink.

I still don't see how detaching works long term. Man, it's hard.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Hey, Ss, I've been following your sitch. I'm sorry you are where you are.

It's too soon to think about detachment in piecing, but if you read and understand the piece 25years posted, you'll see that it has less to do with being loving and more to do with preserving your own individuality and respecting the other person's individuality.

I have actually been practicing some detachment with my kids and it's made me a much better parent. If they act up I take it less personally so I can correct them more effectively. I see them more clearly, appreciate and enjoy them more, notice them more fully. It's very freeing and we're enjoying one another much more.

It is true that it's not easy. It occurs in layers and there is struggle at each level. But it helps, a lot.

Like yours, my H complained a lot about how emotional I got. But it was a push-pull process -- the more neglected I felt the louder I complained. So take responsibility for the changes you can make, absolutely, but detach also, so that you're making them to be more whole within yourself, and not to win him back.

Work at it and welcome the separation as something that will make detaching possible -- I couldn't do it while H was living with me, and if it's got to happen then you'd best make good use of it.


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D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

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Maybell, thank you for stopping by! I'm following your sitch, too. I appreciate your wisdom and strength in all you're facing.

I totally know it's way too soon to think about piecing, I was only asking that because I was wondering if marriage, long term was supposed to be an exercise in detachment. How is that possible? Like you, I see it giving me patience with my daughter and even with myself. It makes good sense, I'm just curious about how it translates long term into a healthy, working, strong marriage. Stepping back enough to allow the other to simply be who they are is fine, I can do that but I'm really struggling to know where the line is between detaching healthily and turning off emotionally from caring. It's almost like I want to see it in action so I can execute and emulate it. You know? Wouldn't that be great? A YouTube video of a detached marriage relationship. Yeah, that'd really help me right now.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Hi Ss06, just checking in on your story, thanks for visiting mine!

As far as your H moving out, I think it might be a positive. And it sounds from what he said that he is not thinking of it as absolutely a permanent move so that is great! Lucky you!

The space will give you time to think, to work on yourself and to get some calmness.

It sounds to me like you have very good reasons to micromanage, but I think that you should definitely work on that tendency. First of all it stresses you out to always anticipate what may happen and be totally prepared. (it's part of being a mom of course) And also it effects the people you micromanage. They become passive. And stressed. So it doesn't work in your favor at all. But I know this is a super difficult thing to change. Baby steps and small wins. Like your Sprinkles cupcake story. You have to let it go sometimes and just trust that it will work out. Maybe not the way YOU would have preferred but people have to make their own mistakes and suffer the consequences in order to learn for next time. I'm not so much a micromanager myself but I have close friends and family members who are and I see the effects. I too can also fall into this pattern sometimes, and I am working on not doing it! It's HARD but usually the payoff is good for peace within yourself and more freedom and independence for others.

Enjoy SF and keep us updated! Hugs, LisaB


Me: 34 H: 30
M: 4 years
BD: 6/15/14
He moved out 6/30/14
OW1: EA then PA after BD
Now he's dating multiple OWs
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Lisa, I'm really glad you stopped by. Thank you.

My poor BFF, I just talked her ear off and cried for hours about my feelings and pain and everything.

I talked to d early tonight because h said he was going out and I needed to speak to her early because she'd be with a babysitter tonight. She and I talked then he got on the phone. I asked where he was going (stupid!) and he said he'd bought Hollywood Bowl tix and was taking a violinist friend (female, young, beautiful) because the feature tonight is a solo violinist. Awesome. Then he talked about how he'd set up his new place, moved the furniture we discussed into his apartment, hired movers, all that. It made me sad but I was trying to stay detached. He seemed so happy. A new apartment, a cool concert tonight with a pretty girl. I can't help but think he's super excited to start his bachelor life. It hurts.

We tell our daughter on Saturday, after I return. I am not looking forward to that. My heart just aches tonight, I feel like I could cry for weeks.

Talking about this with my BFF made me start to wonder if h is going through a MLC. He bought a $100K car in December. Soon after the bomb drop I did some snooping (I found DB later that day) and found profiles at Ashley Madison and some fetish sites, an insane amount of porn, some craigslist singles things, an anonymous email account started in 2009 (!!!!!) where he emailed girls on Craigslist for sex, even got a couple girls' rates for "sensual massage"and "bfe" but when I approached him about it then he said he'd never met up with anyone. I said it certainly wasn't for lack of trying but left it alone. He said he had various email accounts mostly for spam and junk emails. He changed the password on his laptop the day I approached him. Suspicious much?

I've been looking through our credit card bills and his expenses are astronomical. $200+ dinners, $41 coffee shop visits, $160 bar tabs... These looks like dates to me. And they are frequent. On. Nights he's "working late". He even bought $64.00 worth of gasoline at Chevron buy he drives a100% electric car. Did he buy someone a tank of gas? He's spent $1,000 in cigars over two months. To my knowledge he smokes a cigar on occasion with buddies for fun. On occasion. $1,000 in cigars isn't for someone having an occasional cigar. His email showed he was tracking down special boots for a coworker on eBay because hers were stollen from her suitcase during a trip. 20 email exchanges to track down these boots for this woman. He has the app Tinder, two burner phone apps and two burner texting apps. He says there is no other woman.

What am I to think?

It hurts. So badly I want to crawl into a hole. So badly I want him to hurt like I do right now. I've not been a good wife, I recognize this but this stuff? Tinder? Hookers on craigslist? And he says he can't trust me? How do I set this stuff aside and act as if? How do I act happy and pave the road home smoothly with this chit in the way?

Not to take away from the obvious work I need to do on myself during this separation. There's so much and I'm really looking forward to getting down and dirty with it. I'm pissed at myself though for feeling guilty for spending $75 on IC (high copay) when he has dropped thousands entertaining his friends or possibly other women. I'm an idiot.

How do I turn THIS around? It feels insurmountable, even if I am trying to detach.

Last edited by Ss06; 08/08/14 06:31 AM.

M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Ss06! oh no! This information is terrible. I can imagine exactly how you are feeling, I have been through almost the same exact experience before with an ex. Even down to the craigslist thing and the burner phones! Wow. And yes, it was an MLC type thing for him.

Maybe this story will make you feel better? Even though I knew all this info, like you do, I still was willing to work on the R. He was not sure, but mostly said he wanted "a break". I felt a break was a break up and I resisted and insisted over and over again that we work on the R. Finally he wasn't willing to pretend to work on the R anymore and demanded a break.

I moved out and started to feel better pretty quickly. I saw that I had been suffering so much with him and I was relieved not to suffer any more. I didn't contact him at all. At first it was so hard but as I said after about 3 weeks I started to feel better. That was exactly when he first contacted me telling me he made a mistake and was now working on himself.

In the end, he wanted to get back together and I did not. I moved on. For years he still begged me to reconsider, went to therapy several times a week, promised me everything and anything. But I just lost my interest. I felt better without him and his bad behaviors.

I tell you this long story hoping that in some way it might help you. Maybe this separation will give you some peace. Try to GAL and not contact him as much as possible. Give him that space he says he wants. Maybe he will realize that he doesn't want all these other things, he wants you.

And when he comes around then you can see if he is willing to eliminate all the above terrible behaviors.

I wish you luck! Big hugs, Lisa


Me: 34 H: 30
M: 4 years
BD: 6/15/14
He moved out 6/30/14
OW1: EA then PA after BD
Now he's dating multiple OWs
I'm over it and moving on.
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Lisa, I really need to hear your words this morning. Thank you.

I'm stuck in that place between resentment and giving up and I hate it. How do i recover from this pain AND WANT to work on things with someone who is never wrong, extremely insecure, desperate to feel powerful and dominant and attempting to anticipate my needs and tell me how I REALLY feel (he says the only reason I don't want a divorce is that I'm afraid of change. Thanks for putting words in my mouth and really not listening to a word I've said).

And related to your story, Lisa, if during this time away from one another I realize I'm better off without him, he'd never fight for me. He'd never fight for us. That's not mind reading. That's just him.

I need to really find more consistent ways to GAL. I don't have enough friends and I'm afraid to spend money. I'm afraid my GAL will mean I'm around less for my daughter and that scares me.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Ss, do you deserve to be with someone who wouldn't fight for you?

Live for yourself for the time being. Let tomorrow take care of itself.


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D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

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Ss

My sitch is simalar to yours, especially with that thought the WAS would not fight for you .... thing is, he is in a fog at the moment, his idea of what life will be like is not really what reality has in store. All you can do is take this gift of time (I still smh at that ... but I am learning its true) and work on you, regardless of what he does, who he does it with ... these are things out of your control, become the best Ss you can be, someone only a fool would leave. I realize this does not take the sting out, does not remove the hurt, In my case I hit rock bottom and realized the family I once had was destroyed by selfishness .... that selfishness I have now learned has an origin (In my case its MLC), one that I either wait patiently through while improving myself in hopes to save all that I care about, or I press and make things miserable for myself in the end not getting what I really want anyways. I can not control any of this but my perspective, I will be better after all this regardless if I end up alone or we R.
Focus on you, if you, we are all scared, once you start GAL you will start building some confidence again, you need this... and you will need this long after this storm dies off. Try thinking big picture rather than the day to day pain.
just my .02 but I hope things get better for you.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



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Hi Ss06, I feel for you. The only thing I can say is that right now maybe you should let go of the idea of working on things. Not that you shouldn't or won't think about it, but it sounds like HE needs to be the one to wake up and realize he needs to work.

Try to focus on yourself as much as you can. It may sound crazy but you will probably start to feel better once he moves out. That way you don't have him constantly upsetting you and can better focus on the present moment.

My advice is try to detach as much as possible and focus on you. Not easy, but it sounds like he doesn't deserve your attention right now. Let him go find out if his life is better without you. If it is, not much you can do about that, as much as it s#cks! But the more space you give him, the better. No need to be mean or angry, just detach, protect yourself.

Sending you good thoughts!
Hugs, Lisa


Me: 34 H: 30
M: 4 years
BD: 6/15/14
He moved out 6/30/14
OW1: EA then PA after BD
Now he's dating multiple OWs
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Oh and maybe read Train's thread if you haven't already!


Me: 34 H: 30
M: 4 years
BD: 6/15/14
He moved out 6/30/14
OW1: EA then PA after BD
Now he's dating multiple OWs
I'm over it and moving on.
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Maybell, Caliguy and Lisa, thank you so much for your support and encouragement. I'm starting to feel more buoyant. I hate that ONE phone call put me into a spiral of pain and tears that I'm only now coming out of. Jeez.

I got a text from h today asking if, after they pick me up from the airport tomorrow afternoon, I'd like to go to the county fair with he and d. Since an old friend is visiting on Sunday, he suggested we wait to tell d on Monday about our separation (his word was "adjustment"). I'm not thrilled at putting off telling her BUT I am really excited at the prospect of NOT doing it as soon I return to town. That's a huge relief and feels almost like the universe has heard my pleas regarding the timing of telling her. WHEW. ANNNND, h wants ME to come to the fair. He could have taken d that morning, just the two of them, right? Instead, he asked if I wanted to come.

Good sign?


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Hi Ss06, seems like a good sign to me. He sounds a lot like my previous ex. He wants to be "free" but he is not sure he wants to be free forever. So he still is doing these little things to hold on, while planning to walk out "tomorrow".

My advice is to do your very best to let him go, open the cage and let him be free! Only then will he be able to feel if he wants to return and make the changes he needs to make to have a relationship with you. And take that time for yourself to really think about what kind of M you want! All that stuff you described above is pretty disturbing to me, maybe just because I lived through some of the same stuff and it was really difficult.

How to let him go when it will simply devastate you to do so? Act as if you are ok with it (at least around him, you can be a wreck when you are alone). Tell him you understand this is how it has to be. Don't contact him. Don't show weakness if you can help it. Act like you are fine and are moving on. This is easier said than done of course.

I wish you good luck and strength and I'll be watching your story!
Hugs, Lisa B


Me: 34 H: 30
M: 4 years
BD: 6/15/14
He moved out 6/30/14
OW1: EA then PA after BD
Now he's dating multiple OWs
I'm over it and moving on.
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Tonight was a terrible and very hard night. H is sleeping in his new apartment and we tell our daughter tomorrow evening what is going on.

H brought up R tonight and he is no closer to having hope than he was a month ago. He's so bitter and angry. He says he forgives me but can't forget but I can tell he has not forgiven. He says the changes I'm making should have been made a year ago when he needed them because he's done now. He says if it were up to him he'd just be filing for divorce because he just wants to move on with his life. He's only getting separated for me and our d.

He says he can't believe my changes because he can't believe anything about me. He doesn't believe they are lasting, which I told him I totally understood, it's only been 5 weeks but he said he doesn't think he'll ever believe them. He says he doesn't even believe me when I tell him I love him and don't want a divorce because I want HIM, he is big into mind reading and speculating and says I don't want a divorce because I don't like change and I don't want our daughter to come from a broken home. He doesn't think I really want HIM. He doesn't believe me when I tell him I do.

I tried to come from a place of dignity and respect for the whole 2 hour conversation. To listen and validate. To hear his pain and really come from a place of understanding. He was so negative (which he calls "pragmatic") and I could tell he just wanted to vent for two hours about all the things I did to him and how he's his own hero for growing a pair and getting out. I still listened, validated and let the sharper points just wash over me while still hearing them. No crazy reactions which is a huge 180 for me.

I told him I was totally in favor of the separation, even though it hurts, and I'm eager to really do some meaningful soul searching because I'm proud of the changes I'm seeing in myself and the person I'm becoming. He said that if the changes I make stick that he's proud of me too and it will surely help me have a healthy relationship with someone else down the line. Ouch.

Somehow the convo turns into him complaining about how horrible I was to him and I end up trying to profess big change. Finally, i just stood up, grabbed the basket of folded clothes and walked out. He later came upstairs to tell me he was leaving and asked me not to just walk away from our conversations. To say that I need to end the convo now or something because he said it's too reminiscent of how things used to be. Touché. I told him that I can definitely do that in the future.

What an ugly night. He's not receptive at all to my changes and I can't blame him. 5 weeks isn't enough but he even admitting to not being open to seeing them. I feel like someone not in the middle of all this could see all this more clearly and see the inconsistencies in his plight. I know he's hurting and can't see past that. I fear it's too late.

I'm trying really hard not to let myself spiral into a sad spell that I can't get out of for days.

I asked him what he wanted to get out of the separation. He said he wanted to do some work on himself and "see if I miss you at all". He said he'd need to see a 98% change in me and know 100% that it's authentic and trust that it's real before even considering coming back. He's dead inside and is done.

I'm not busting this divorce well at all.

He just texted this:
I'm truly sorry about earlier. Even if I sometimes find it frustrating, I understand you're trying to be healthy and positive, and I came off the rails a bit. I apologize.

To which I responded:
I appreciate you apology and the effort it took to tell me you need me to not walk away like that. Thanks for your patience tonight. I'm sorry our talks always seem to be a formula of you venting (understandably) and me promising change you can't believe in. That's not working well so I'll change that.

My heart hurts. I need to do more maybe by doing less? I hate that he hates me so much.

Last edited by Ss06; 08/11/14 05:59 AM.

M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Aw, Ss06. I'm so sorry it's come to this. The day we told our D was the hardest day in this whole process so far. I'm wishing you peace and strength today.

Try to not to be so down on yourself. I know you're trying to accept responsibility for your own issues (and that's great!), but I find it hard to believe that your H is entirely blameless. My H and I have a little bit of the same dynamic -- he holds onto to past hurts forever, whereas I'm a "forgive and forget" type of person. Moreover, I'm quick to apologize and accept blame, while he is more stubborn and will generally feel justified in his behavior, even if he apologizes for the hurt feelings. The result is that, as a couple, we tend to remember many times where I hurt him, but fewer times where he hurt me. But it's a biased perspective. You're not solely to blame, and even if you were, I don't know that it would help to act that way around your H.

Here are the good things that I see --

1. He's not asking for a D. Don't worry about the reasons why. He may say that he is done, but he is leaving the door open, at least a little bit.

2. He has noticed the changes you've made over the past 5 weeks. That's awesome! Don't worry if he doesn't believe them yet. What's that saying that someone else here always posts? Change + sufficient time = change he can believe in. So true!

3. He reached out and apologized after your argument. He acknowledges that he needs to work on himself. He acknowledges that he may miss you. Watch for these little signs and adjust your behavior accordingly. It's what I'm doing with my H, who said similar things when he left.


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T: 13 M: 11
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Hi Ss, I am with Elsa, don't give up hope!

I feel for you, and I admire that you are trying to make changes and be a better person and wife. The consistency is the thing, so just keep going.

Also you know what the vets always say on here, don't believe anything you hear. He hasn't filed for D and whatever reasons he is giving don't matter so much. Just keep on moving forward, focus on yourself, keep those changes going.

Your best friend right now is time and space. Give him as much space as you can. Just let him be alone to process his feelings and how it is to be away from you and your d. The more space and time you give him, the better. Continue to work on yourself and try to be positive and strong when you see or speak to him, which I am sure you will because of your d.

By the way, it sounds to be like you handled his venting really well. You should pat yourself on the back for that one! Good job!

Good luck and come back here to let us know how it goes today. We are here for you!
Hugs, Lisa


Me: 34 H: 30
M: 4 years
BD: 6/15/14
He moved out 6/30/14
OW1: EA then PA after BD
Now he's dating multiple OWs
I'm over it and moving on.
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Elsa and Lisa, I needed to hear your supportive and kind words so badly today. Thank you!! I see others (including you two) making solid strides and can't wait to encourage and celebrate their successes but I have trouble seeing my own. Thanks for pointing them out to me because I really struggle to see them.

I'm so grateful for the help I've received and hope to continue to receive through this process. It's a strange comfort to know others are in a similar situations as I am, even though I wish none of us were here.

I am working on attracting what I want and need right now and asking the universe to care for me during this time. It's crazy the things I'm seeing, hearing and paying attention to now that I'm officially on the "separated" path.

Went to yoga today and out of no where our typically quiet teacher read a quote, "pain is inevitable, suffering is optional". I really needed to hear that. Then I was running errands and knocked over a book at a store, it fell open to a chapter on loss and that same quote was at the very top. It also advised to get rest, take care of myself and to grieve but to relish in my new chapter that I alone get to write. It spoke of becoming the person you've always wanted to be and how there is always pain during that process. I just felt it was the universe looking out for me. As hard as all of this is and all the pain I feel just by inhaling sometimes, I have a choice not to suffer.

We told d today and she took it better than expected. She was upset but no tears. She was interested that daddy now has a different place to live and asked about divorce. I took 25's advice and told her all the things that would stay the same... Which is almost everything. She expressed that she was angry and stood tapping her foot with her arms crossed saying we should work this stuff out because she wants us together. Today in her bath she made a "potion". A love potion so h and I would get back together. It broke my heart a little but hey, maybe it'll work.

And so it begins. Officially separated.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Hi Ss06,

I'm new to the boards, but I just wanted to say I totally empathize with the whole "you should have made these changes a year ago" and with H being done now and not believing that you want him. I've been experiencing something so similar and just separated from my H about a month ago. Not gonna lie, the separation is so difficult, and I wish I had words of advice, but I just wanted to say, I feel ya.

Jacket


Me: 35, H: 37, no kids
Together since 2002, Married since 2007
IDKIILY: 2/2013
MC: 5/2013-6/2014
H stated he was REALLY done: 4/2014
I moved out 7/6/14
H filed end of 8/2014 but still hasn't served me
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I'm sorry, jacket. The "too little too late" sentiment is a hard one to hear. Hang in there.m I'll check out your sitch. Thanks for stopping by.

I hate how up and down I am from day to day. Today I am feeling down and mildly hopeless but I didn't sleep well and sleep has a big impact on a person's outlook.

Inside I feel solid, like my changes are really bolstering me up and I'm seeing glimmers of the real me. It feels good. Then I remember my situation and things feel gray and dark again. And his lack of hope and believe has me questioning my hope and belief in myself.

I've applied for so many jobs but there's one I really want. The application period ended last Friday and they said to expect to hear around 2-3 weeks after that if I got an interview. I'm trying to attract this job through the universe. I need it and want it.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Ok, I was just thinking about a convo h and I had the other night and I was talking about my own realizations about myself, changes I'm making for me, how good it feels to get to know myself, etc. He said something about (gah, I wish I could remember his words) how I'd expect him to make efforts and changes before I fully changed and I was taken back by that.

A year ago when he wanted to leave I got him to stay by promising changes BUT they were conditional on his changes. He agreed but once I noticed he stopped caring I stopped trying so hard. My behavior was reactive to his and I always said "I do this because you..."

I know better now that his behavior is not a dictator of my behavior. I can choose every second of every day how I'm going to react to his behavior. I control me. No one else.

Since we are officially separated, I want to write down a few plans /180s just to commemorate them as part of my path. I'd love anyone's feedback.

1. Continue to be kind and open with him but no more R talks for a while. We're in a pattern of him venting and rewriting our history to me and I defend our history. Not good. I want to gently change the subject or JUST LISTEN.

2. Make my GAL a little more apparent to him somehow. Not sure how.

3. Be more mysterious. How?

4. Have a PMA more. I need to do stuff with friends!!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Ss06, I'm just now seeing your update. Our Ds sound so much alike! My D cried initially (wailed, actually) but rebounded quickly. She was also excited about H's new place (which hurt me, but was good for her) and asked about divorce almost immediately (as well as a bunch of other questions that I hadn't -- but should have, knowing her! -- anticipated). I hope she continues to feel safe and loved.

I love that the universe is sending you signs -- keep listening! Good luck with your job search!


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If tonight is any indication of what this separation will be like, then it's going to be very odd and I need your help, here because this sounds a little like cake eating to me.

H texted me earlier today to say he was planning on coming by to work (his studio is in the garage but has a separate entrance) and charge his car (it's electric and needs a 220 plug which is in the garage.

This was no prob for me. I figured I'd feed d after karate, we'd play a game pout her to bed. He'd just do his thing. Wrong.

He came in, had a grocery bag and said, "I brought orange juice because I noticed you were out. Oh and I got guacamole and salsa because I haven't eaten. Do you mind if I dig into your tortilla chips?"

He got himself a bowl, made himself a salsa, guacamole bowl with cheese from the fridge and dug in while d and I were playing Jenga. Ooookay. I put d to bed and he's in the studio doing his thing. I start to make myself dinner, tidy up a bit and I see the spoon he scooped his guacamole and salsa with sitting in the sink. No big deal, it's just a spoon but aren't we separated?!?!

He just came inside and asked me about D's day, if anything came up with her knowing about the separation and was she ok. I told him nothing has changed for her yet. It's been one day!

I think he fails to realize that she's used to him not being home. He certainly was not home for meals let alone for her bedtime most nights. He seems confused that she and I are not crumbling because of his absence.

THEN, he wanted to talk about his plans for having d over at his apartment and would take her to karate and that he got a bed set up for her. Then he said, just tell me if you don't want to talk about this. It was all stuff we'd already discussed yesterday, nothing new, so I said I just wanted to eat and fold the laundry right now. He immediately got up and said, ok, I'll text you then.

He went to the studio.

What the heck is going on?

Is this cake eating? Do I need to set boundaries or just let it play out?

If you're separated, do you just walk in, bring on and ask to eat tortilla chips? I'm confused!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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haha Ss06, I don't really have good advice for you except I have experienced similar things with my H. When he moved out he didn't clean up or put away his stuff, he just left his dirty clothes on the floor next to the bed like he would come back later to pick them up. I was flabbergasted that he expected me to pick up after him when he just dumped me?

I think the fact that your H came over is because he is not ready to dive into his new life yet. He wants to know you are still there and feel that comfort of home.

I don't have any advice but wish you good luck and strength!
Hugs, Lisa B


Me: 34 H: 30
M: 4 years
BD: 6/15/14
He moved out 6/30/14
OW1: EA then PA after BD
Now he's dating multiple OWs
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Your H's confusing behaviors remind me of my H's. I'm no expert, but I'd say let things play out. I'm wondering, if you try to set firm boundaries over this will he maybe feel controlled or emasculated? Was that one of the things he complained about before? As long as what he's doing isn't upsetting you or making you uncomfortable or somewhat untrue to yourself, then maybe it's ok to just see where things go. He's being confusing, sure, I totally give you that! Not sure what his love language is but if he likes words of affirmation, you could make a big deal about how thoughtful it was he noticed you're out of OJ and brought some over.

Good for you for handling the confusing situation so well! Good luck with day 2!


Me: 35, H: 37, no kids
Together since 2002, Married since 2007
IDKIILY: 2/2013
MC: 5/2013-6/2014
H stated he was REALLY done: 4/2014
I moved out 7/6/14
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[quote=Ss06]

I see the spoon he scooped his guacamole and salsa with sitting in the sink. No big deal, it's just a spoon but aren't we separated?!?!

[quote]

SS06, this is frustrating for sure, but I know my H will be just like that. I once worked with a guy, "J", who would stir his coffee every day with a plastic spoon and then put the spoon into the sink in the staff lounge. I watched him do this every day for a couple weeks, and then finally said, "J, just whom do you think is going to clean up your spoon for you? Throw it away for heaven's sake!" He stared at me in shock. It had never occurred to him to clean up after himself.



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It sounds like cake eating to me. Boundaries Boundaries Boundaries. We all forget to set them, but they are very important.


Me: 35
Her: 33
D : 16
S : 9
Together: 14 years
Married: 12
She left 4/14/2014
Separated: 5/25/2014
OM Confirmed 7/2014
She filed 8/7/2014
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Divorce final 2/12/2015
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It sounds like cake eating to me. Boundaries Boundaries Boundaries. We all forget to set them, but they are very important.


Me: 35
Her: 33
D : 16
S : 9
Together: 14 years
Married: 12
She left 4/14/2014
Separated: 5/25/2014
OM Confirmed 7/2014
She filed 8/7/2014
I Filed 10/21/2014
Divorce final 2/12/2015
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SS, I don't know WHAT it is. My H stored his TV box in our basement, left all his fall clothes and several shoes, diplomas hung on the walls of his home office, and lets himself in to borrow the drill and use my Command adhesives when he feels the need. He left some of his toiletries on the bathroom counter, too!

He also asked me to take delivery of the sofa he bought for the apartment. (!!) I told him THEN that if we were going to be separated then we had to be separate. That was just too big a request to accommodate. I did help assemble the stupid thing because I really needed him to take the kids the following weekend and I was afraid he wouldn't if he didn't have the apartment set up. That actually ended up being a productive activity.

My MC/IC was astounded that he does't have space set up for the kids (the boys sleep in his bed when they stay, my D on a futon in his home office, and he sleeps on the couch), nor does he have ANY toys at his house for them except the Skylanders that go to the xBox. (D doesn't play with those). IC thinks he hasn't got his head around this being a permanent situation. I'm just letting it go. It's not like I want it to be more permanent.

It may or may not be cake-eating, but I think whether or not it is depends on you and how you respond to it. If you're just letting it wash over you and not being emotionally invested in what he's doing then maybe it isn't, and if it gets your hopes up and keeps you from detaching then maybe it should stop.


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D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

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It may or may not be cake-eating, but I think whether or not it is depends on you and how you respond to it. If you're just letting it wash over you and not being emotionally invested in what he's doing then maybe it isn't, and if it gets your hopes up and keeps you from detaching then maybe it should stop.

I agree with this completely. I would always use those types of situations as opportunities to show H my changes ... and that my life was moving on, too. However, I *did* set boundaries on him just dropping by every day if the purpose of him stopping by was hurting our kids and/or me. (For instance, after a couple weeks of him stopping by daily at lunch to move more things out, I told him it was important that he wrapped that up ... and preferably either when the kids and I weren't home, or when he'd given me notice so that the kids and I could leave the house.)


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I am so glad I read your responses early this morning because as d and I were getting into the car to take her to camp, h showed up "to get his sunglasses". I decided to stay detached (that's hard when you see each other all the time) and was cheerful, friendly AND, taking your suggestion jacket, thanked him for the orange juice and his thoughtfulness. He seemed appreciative of my gratitude.

Originally Posted By: Jacket
I'm wondering, if you try to set firm boundaries over this will he maybe feel controlled or emasculated? Was that one of the things he complained about before? As long as what he's doing isn't upsetting you or making you uncomfortable or somewhat untrue to yourself, then maybe it's ok to just see where things go. He's being confusing, sure, I totally give you that! Not sure what his love language is but if he likes words of affirmation, you could make a big deal about how thoughtful it was he noticed you're out of OJ and brought some over.


You're right!! I DO NOT want to emasculate him or make him feel unwanted or unloved. I'm finding that shutting up is my best method of not emasculating him. I'm trying to give him the chance to grow into his manliness. What man doesn't want to feel like a hero? So, I am trying to find his hero moments and chose to see his bringing us oj as a hero moment. What a truly kind gesture.

The rest of the stuff is awkward but not painful, I don't think. Time will tell.

I can tell he is struggling. He didn't look good this morning, like he didn't sleep. I don't want to pursue and I don't really want to be his personal therapist where he vents how hard all this is on him. What is my role here? Any thoughts on that?

Thank you ladies for chiming in with your stories about your Hs and their moving out techniques. It made me smile no came just in time for me to rethink my actions.

Big Mac, it IS cake eating but given the belittling and condescension and emasculating I dished out in our marriage, I need to tread carefully with boundaries. I won't let him walk all over me but tortilla chips and spoons certainly isn't allowing him to walk all over me.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
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The S is really hitting the fan. D got in trouble at school today. She told a little boy she wanted to kill her mom, kill her dad and because he had freckles, him, too. She was sent to the office. The principal talked with her and d said she's upset because her dad is living in an apartment and her parents are trying to work it out but what if they don't.

I brought her home and we drew pictures if our feelings. She drew a picture of herself crying and angry. She wrote "worry, mad, sad" on the pic. I drew a picture of a her as a baby with a force field around her protecting her from a bad thunder storm. It said "protect". She then drew a picture of me as a baby with her protecting me and a picture of h as a baby with her protecting him. We talked "girl to girl". She said she just wanted a normal life.

It was so hard to have this chat with her. She asked why h and I couldn't just work it out. How she just wants us all together. How angry she is.

We talked about ways to get the anger out. She went outside and threw big rocks into the grass for about 20 minutes. She kept saying that she lived our house and wanted our family all back in it.

I let h know but it's hard not to hate him a little right now. I'm dealing with this with our daughter while he's off at the Hollywood a Bowl enjoying wine and dinner and an awesome concert. I guess it's the universe telling me I'm the one more equipped right now to handle her anger BUT he created this mess.

I just want to call him and say, "ok, I get that you're upset, I won't be that person anymore. We can do this and make this work!! Come home, stop all this!!" But it doesn't work like that. frown


M: 37 H: 36
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D: 7
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Separation: 8/11/14

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It is hard to not hate the WAS at times. I found early on that it was easier, short-term, but it made everything worse and didn't actually stop me from loving her. So I guess my advice is just: stay strong, be awesome.

Good luck.


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Ss, I hear you. That's really the hardest part, isn't it?

Great job handling your baby's pain. You are an awesome mom.


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Ss, what a wonderful strategy for helping her develop skills and resilience. You are modeling for her with your own strength, resilience and capacity for change.


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VENT AHEAD:

I don't want this. I hate this pain and I hate seeing it on my daughters face. He wants "to think of himself for once" and the carnage that leaves behind he doesn't even have to see because he's at a damn concert (second on in one week).

I'm looking at therapy for d so she can be better assisted in handling this process but who is going to take her? Who will make sure she gets there? Plus, our insurance [censored] so it'll mostly be out of pocket (another reason I want that job!!). So while I have d I get to help pick up he pieces of his mess and take her to therapy to help her come to terms with this trauma and he gets to be Disneyland dad and have "sleepovers" at his place. Of COURSE he's in favor of divorce. His life rocks now.

I just want this all to go away, for D's sake. She has enough to contend with with having ADHD, ODD, sensory issues (mild), potential low grade Asperger's and her IQ is higher than mine so SHE GETS IT ALL!!!

I effing hate this [censored]!!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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His life rocks now
Don't count on it, sweetie.

I know how unfair and hopeless things feel. But he's living in his own personal hell, even though it doesn't look like it from your end. Let him live and suffer there. He's a big boy.

And I know you will tire of hearing it - if you haven't already - but it's the best advice out there: keep focusing on you. Keep focusing on being the best person and mom you can be. Please stay as distracted as possible and do the things that make you feel accomplished, like taking amazing care of your D. Please trust me when I say this will work. It will take time. But it will work. And one day soon, you won't care what your H is doing. Or, you'll start caring less.

One of my favorite quotes, just for you tonight, Ss:

“I beg you to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don’t search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.” (Rainer Maria Rilke)

Hugs.


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Train,

I so needed that quote tonight, too. Thank you.


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Absolutely, claire! I hope it helps. I pull it out often. smile


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Train, that quote went immediately into my journal so I can refer to it often. Thank you. Your wisdom is so helpful on my situation and I appreciate it so much.

I'm on the world famous Separation Diet and have lost a bit of weight. I've also noticed though that my brain is super cloudy. Like I can't process things very quickly, speak as eloquently as I used to or understand things with any depth. Take Train's quote for example. I had to read it three times and write it down for it to register. What is happening to my brain?

Do I need to take supplements? I feel like I'm not at the top of my game but I really need to be. Without offending other blondes, I feel like a bimbo. Is it the food? Am I still in shock? what is going on with me?


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Hi Ss06, it is the stress and the shock and the not eating that is putting you in a fog. Don't worry about it, just try to eat wholesome things when you can get them down. I went for a lot of eggs and avocado and salmon and chocolate when I could manage to eat. It helped. Nice fatty food for your brain. smile

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. Maybe it is inappropriate but I kind of loved what your d said, that she wanted to kill the parents and the kid too because he had freckles. I can relate, through this horrible and stressful process sometimes I just want to kill everyone too, especially happy couples I see kissing and hugging. I hate them! smile Sounds like you are handling it really well, and I'm going to take your advice and go throw some rocks! Keep being awesome!

And also yes your H is not having a fabulous time even if it seems he is. He is or will be suffering very soon.

You are doing great. Be strong! Good luck!
Hugs, LisaB


Me: 34 H: 30
M: 4 years
BD: 6/15/14
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Ss,

It's stress, sweetie. I lost 20 pounds in 3 months just because I could not eat. I also could not stay focused on much. Everything seemed so "fuzzy."

Have patience with yourself.

My dad died suddenly, at age 50, in a tragic accident in 2006. I suffered through THAT better than I suffered through my family being destroyed by an affair. This is some serious business. Many people show symptoms of PTSD. Because being abandoned, for ANY reason, IS traumatic and stressful, no doubt about it.

Take care of you, and have patience with you.

You have support here, and we've alllllll been in the same place.

Have a bubble bath and a glass of wine. Read a book that takes you away from all this mess. Watch a funny movie. Or a sad one. And cry, cry, cry until your eyes are swollen shut.

You're finding Ss every, single day, even though you don't feel like it. You'll get your groove back. I promise.


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Thank you Lisa and Train. I really appreciate you chiming in on my thread. Train, I'm sorry to hear about your dad. (((()))))

You're right, train, this is some serious stuff. Anyone else have a panic attack every time they hear the words "hey, we need to talk"??? Oh I freaking hate those words now.

Tonight is D6's first night at "her dad's house". I had plans to GAL but my friend is sick and can't go for drinks so I'm in a big house all alone. I texted my bestie and she suggested almost EXACTLY what you suggested, Train. I'm taking the hint and I'm going to give myself a facial, eat something tasty, pour a glass of wine, read, do a little online shopping for D6's birthday next week and perhaps shed a few tears.

I wish I knew if I'm chipping away at H's heart at all. I think that's one of the hardest parts here (aside from the impact on my daughter). I'm making these changes for me, absolutely, but there's no denying the catalyst was him wanting to leave. This makes him angry and resentful. He doesn't understand why I didn't change before he wanted a divorce. I tried. I really did. I felt like my behavior was hinged on his and he wasn't willing to change so I only changed a little. Looking back on that I find it so juvenile and petty. I feel like my whole life is in his hands because of a juvenile and petty decision I made and that I'll be punished for it (so will my daughter) for the rest of my life. If only he knew what giving me just a tiny chance would do, how different EVERYTHING would be.

It's hard not to ask "what more does he want from me" and remember that he's going through his own stuff. I can work on me, that's great but I feel so powerless. It takes TWO people to decide to get married but it only takes ONE to end a marriage and that doesn't seem right. Guess I'm keeping on with Maybell's Mad Day.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Today is a very strange day because I have no responsibilities with regard to D6. It's disarming, I'll admit. I hate this separation and I hate not having my daughter all the time.

I'm frustrated today with the fact that my H seriously is not a problem solver and therefore wants out without thinking about ways to solve this issue we have and have had for years. We've had problems in the past and I've often been the one to suggestion options (MC, books, retreats, vacations, dates, etc) and he'd shoot them down. I would ask him for his input or solutions. He'd say, "I don't know. I just don't know." Had I known about DB I would have known I could have brought about change single handedly but I didn't so here I sit left behind and him not looking at any solutions.

I feel like the changes I want to make would benefit both of us and bring us closer. I feel like the changes he wants to make drives us further apart. Him doing work on himself really means that he wants to not be wishy-washy like his dad so it'll make him dig his heels in more on this divorce. I think he believes "making it work" means strong arming himself into not wanting what he wants and swallowing resentment. I wish I or someone could tell him that with the right tools, lots of practice, proper understanding of ourselves and a desire to have a beginner's mind, be open, be vulnerable and have hope can bring on a miracle.

I want to experience this miracle with him. I want to look across the table and smile knowing we're in it together. We haven't had that feeling EVER. We've not been partners; it was a continuous complaint from both of us but it's apparent we both have different ideas how to be the other's partner in the way they need. Just THAT, just knowing THAT fact is HUGE for our marriage.

I know so much of this is mindreading. I don't know what he's thinking other than he wants a divorce. Does he miss me? Is his heart opening at all?

On a separate note, what am I supposed to say when he asks how I am???? When we exchange our daughter he often asks, "how are you" and he looks right at me so it's not a question that I can respond with an errant "fine". That's his way of saying, "how are you doing with this separation?" I respond usually with, "I'm ok." in an upbeat tone. I ask him the same question and he does the same with sort of a look of surprise on his face like he never thought this would be as easy as it's turning out to be (yes, mindreading, I know).

I know. I can hear all of you saying, "Ss, detach. GAL. Take care of you."

I was supposed to go out for drinks last night wiht a friend but she had a cold and canceled so I sat at home. Today I went to yoga and meditated. We're supposed to go out tonight if my friend is feeling up for it but I doubt she is. What can I do alone on a Friday night?

On another separate note, I'm really seeing signs from the universe that it's looking out for me. Little things but little things matter a lot.

I am also on day FOUR of giving up my starbucks habit. I'm so proud of myself. I don't think I've EVER gone this long. I'm saving 310 calories and $4.95 every day. I gave up soda about 12 years ago and that was hard but giving this up is making me feel like I have a little control. This is big for me and if H ever finds out he'll be absolutely SHOCKED.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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I'll weigh in on the practical questions of how to respond to "How are you?" and what to do on a Friday night.

I'd have several responses prepared and ready - and they can all be more variations of "I'm OK".
- I'm having a great morning
- Really well - I'm loving this weather
- I'm ...(consult thesaurus for synonyms of good)

As for Friday nights-

Well of course there is always the old standby of going to movie. I hadn't been to the movie theater in 5 years for a non-kid movie until last week, and I have to say I was surprised at hoe much I enjoyed it.

Plan a reasonably sized home improvement project.

Find some sort of exercise class that you've never done before.

Take up star gazing (I think the Perseid meteor shower might still be out).

Find a youtube video on how to prepare some type of meal you've never made before, then cook it for yourself and enjoy.

Locate some sort of online resource for things to do in your area so next time you are prepared with ideas

Hang in there! Pulling for you!


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Oh - I forgot - Listen to female empowerment music while performing home beauty treatments - that's always a good one!


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Hi Ss! Raliced has great tips!

I was also going to say a movie is a good thing to do. It's perfect to do alone as you don't talk during a movie and you can go see a happy one and laugh and get distracted or a sad cathartic one and cry your eyes out!

My H also loves to ask all meaningfully "how are you?" F that!

I always say GREAT! and then launch into some reason I am doing fan f-ing tastic. Like "Great! I just accomplished ..." or "Great! I just went for a run!" or "Great! What a nice sunny day today, right?" Often he would be super confused by this answer. Also most times I would not ask him "how are you?" back. Why? Do I really care? No. But if I did he would often say "oh I'm ok...." all sad.

Hope you have an incredible Friday night doing whatever you want! And congrats on quitting the Starbucks!
Hugs, Lisa


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BD: 6/15/14
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raliced,

I love your responses to "how are you". Thank you.

Your Friday night suggestions are great, too. Going to a movie alone is something I've never done but I'm not sure I'm ready to do that yet. I feel silly cooking for just myself but I think I might do just that. I have a delicious bottle of wine a friend brought over and a facial doesn't seem like a bad idea, either. I shaving my legs GAL?

I just solidified plans for D6's 7th birthday which is next Saturday. The three of us are going to Disneyland for two full days, hotel, character breakfast, the whole shebang... It'll be a blast and a great opportunity to just BE my changes. To show MYSELF these changes. If H sees them, great. If not, I will and that's meaningful.

Just got back from a coffee date (I had lemonade!) with a friend. She was talking about her troubles with her husband and of course I did too. She completely understands and it was great to chat with someone who gets it (other than all of you).

How do you all tell your friends that you're separated or having serious marriage trouble? I'm curious about how that goes down. Most of my friends are also friends with H so it's a bit awkward. I'd love to hear how it's all going with you in this department.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Ss, I told close friends and need-to-know people. Otherwise, I try to avoid it. H & I still have each other as spouses on Facebook. He has told very, very few people. I've told more but that's because of the kids. One friend I told early on because we were working on a project together and I cracked in the middle of it. People are still finding out, which is sometimes awkward.

Shaving your legs is GAL if you make a project out of it!

And I've started cooking for myself so I have leftovers to eat. Otherwise I found myself eating Hot Pockets and stuff, and considering I've developed high blood pressure since BD, I'd really prefer to treat myself as worth the effort. Can't afford to stroke out while my H is out of the country considering our nearest relatives are 600 miles away. But I only drink when I'm with friends. Some habits we DON'T need to take up, and a bottle of wine tastes best shared anyway.

And Lisa, yes, thanks, I'm GREAT no matter what! Will definitely use that. smile


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Hi Ss- I wanted to thank you for stopping by my thread and swing by to give you some support.

In reading through your initial posts I read something that's probably true for many of us a definitely my H and I- we were all waiting for the other one to bake some changes and meet us halfway before we did the work needed.
I so wish I hadn't been so stubborn before. But I also know I had to forgive myself and I hope you've worked on that too as carrying around shoulda/coulda/would doesn't help.

Sounds like over time you really have had some great positives to focus on. Keep looking for those! As far as GAL- I found working out to be extremely therapeutic. Helps too that the physique change doesn't go unnoticed smile
I saw your D6 ( almost 7, right?) does karate. That would be a great one for you to join her in. My kids do that too and I keep considering it but haven't yet.

Hope you continue to have positive steps and find some opportunities for GAL that are fulfilling. Enjoy your trip for D's birthday and rock his socks off with your new you!


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BD1 dec 2012 not sure going to work
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I just noticed a typo that was probably aFreudian slip in reference to MLC. " bake some changes" instead of " make some changes". Haha!!
I think my subconscious typed that just to be funny smile


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S 19,16, 8 D 13
BD1 dec 2012 not sure going to work
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Filed oct 2013, D Feb 2015
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Ss, I told my close friends within a few days of BD. Prior to that, no one except my mom knew that we were having problems because we had always agreed that we wouldn't take our problems outside of the marriage. However, since the S I've been pretty candid with my friends about what's going on, as I've needed their help to process what's happening. Of course, my friends also know that my goal is reconciliation, so everything that
I tell them is received in that context.

We tended to have friends as a couple too, but the friends were usually mostly "mine" or "his." I think it was pretty clear to each of us who we could count on and who the other person would be seeking out for support during this time. I will say that I did "take over" one of "his" friends post-S, but I warned him at BD that that was going to happen because she's in a similar situation with her H and we would have more in common moving forward. H didn't object and the friend has even commented that he is distancing himself from her.


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Another strange day today. D came home after two days "at her dad's" (I hate typing that out it sounds horrible). I missed her so much it hurt. H said he needed to gather a few of his things and walked around the house gathering things like the juicer, other things but I have no idea what they are. He's here charging his car but in the studio.

I took D to go look at bikes (her #1 request for her 7th birthday this coming Saturday). I took her and ended up buying one. I texted H to let him and know and he told me he'd have preferred to be there. I felt terrible. It totally looked like I did that on purpose but I didn't. He was cool about it later on but I should have considered that. I'm just confused about how much family time we're spending together. He "drops" our D off and hangs out in the kitchen for 30 minutes while D and I catch up, says he wants to check out the sprinklers (which he NEVER did while we were living together), hangs around, notices I've moved furniture around to replace stuff he took to his place. I'm trying to detach but be kind but I kind of want to say, "dude, why are you here?" I don't know. Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong and now I fear I messed up big time by not inviting him to help pick out a bike with D.

Next week we go to Disneyland to celebrate D's birthday (instead of a big party). Two full days, over night in a hotel, standing in lines, heat, sun... with H. I need to work on my detaching without being cold. He loves to chit chat about everything and anything but I have a hard time seeing past the big pink elephant in the room. Advice here? It's like I'm still his wife, and he wants that, but we live apart. I find it weird and uncomfortable.

I removed wedding photos from the walls and went to hang other photos up but I needed a hammer from the garage. I think he took it because I couldn't find it but I did find a silver frame that I had engraved and gave to him for our first wedding anniversary with a photo of the two of us exchanging vows. It used to sit on his desk in the studio. I found it under a bunch of crap in the garage. That hurt.

Last edited by Ss06; 08/16/14 11:04 PM.

M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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The best thing you can do is remember that way more of this has to do with him than with you. If you go visit bashy's thread from 1-2 weeks ago there's a big discussion about doing a family outing under these circumstances. 25yearsmlc has a big post about it that is a must-read.

The impulse that prompted you to take down your wedding pictures is the same one that prompted him to put your pic in the garage. Try really hard not to take it personally. If this were easy for him he wouldn't be finding so many excuses to come home.

WRT the bike... Don't beat yourself up. There's no rule book for this time. Just do the best you can and learn from what didn't work.

Hang in there!


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

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I've been thinking about this for a while and not sure what to do and it just occurred to me that I can pose it to all of you!

I haven't had a DB couch session in two weeks. She and I talked about having one about a week after H&I officially separate for a week. Well, it's time to make that appointment. I think if I asked H to talk with a DB couch he'd do it but only really to submit his case because he thinks anyone would totally say "dude, you need to divorce her". Is that a bad idea? Is it better for the coaching to be just for me? Ugh, one week into separation and I'm already antsy. I need this JOB!!!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Just my .02. I wouldn't feel bad about the bike. Personally, I think that smacks a little of cake eating. These are exactly the type of family moments that you don't really get to do if you're divorced.

As to the hanging around for 30 minutes. I can see where that would be awkward - I would chalk it up to being a nice thing for your daughter. I wish my H would let the kids see us together for a few minutes, instead of the hot potato drop off.


2 Ds: 7 and 4
BD and Sep: 7/14
Divorce Final 2/16
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raliced, I never considered the hot potato drop off. Thanks for that perspective. I needed that smack to the head in your ever-so-gentle way. smile

That's my point about the bike thing. If we're divorced, he'd buy her a bike for his house and I'd buy her a bike for my house, right? I don't actually know but he wouldn't be there. This is what I mean by his wanting to play family. He genuinely thinks we'll have Thanksgiving and other holidays as a family into perpetuity.

I talked to my BFF about this. Her parents were divorced when she was 12 and while it was very amicable she said it's silly to think that holidays and birthdays won't be split. Of course they will be; that's the nature of divorce and why the children suffer so much. Why is our divorce going to be so different from everyone else's and pretend to be a big happy family except live separately??!! He seems to forget that if our marriage was dysfunctional, divorce isn't going to be some HUGE expression of health! What is he thinking?!\

I apologized to him about not including him but looking back I was careful to state that I didn't just buy the bike as a back stab and that I was sorry if it came off that way so I think I did pretty good.

Last edited by Ss06; 08/17/14 12:02 AM.

M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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And we just had another record setting drop off. I don't go out to the car to meet him to force him to at least walk them in the house. He walked D6 in, hugged her goodbye and turned to leave I believe that might be a record - under 15 seconds!


2 Ds: 7 and 4
BD and Sep: 7/14
Divorce Final 2/16
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Jeez, raliced. 15 seconds. that's amazing!

So here's another perspective on the bike sitch...

Should i stay positive about anything H wants to do as a family because that's paving the road home smoothly, right? Or am I allowing him to family while we're also playing divorce?

Enjoy your kids!!!

Last edited by Ss06; 08/17/14 12:30 AM.

M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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I do think its positive that he wants to do things as a family- it means on some level he values the family. There are plenty of situation where the WAS tries to escape from the whole family. That being said - I think there is a limit to how much of that he should get to enjoy - but of course you have to balance that with your daughters needs. If she is enjoying spending time with him alone - that should be enough. If she needs you all to spend time together that is something else.


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that's the rub I guess. she seems fine to just hang with one of us at a time. Huh. I don't know.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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I agree with raliced. It is a good thing that he values family time, and spending time together as a family gives you an opportunity to continue to show him how committed you are to changing how you interact with him. You can show him how great things could be in the future, if he's willing to give the R another try.

You can always change your mind in the future if you find it's not working and/or he's cake-eating.


Me: 33 Him: 35
T: 13 M: 11
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Ss, your separation is only a couple of days old so for the time being I would monitor what's going on, keep reporting here for third-party perspective, and record how you feel. When it's time for you to lay boundaries you will know.

In the meantime, work on detaching and discovering what you want your life to be like and start moving toward that.

WRT your daughter being ok with things at the moment... Is she getting more of his attention now than she did before? It sounds like it. That would explain why she's ok at the moment.


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D12, S8, S7
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Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

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Maybell, thanks for your perspective!

I know, I'm freaking out and acting like I've been separated for years but it has been a week. A WEEK. Oy. I need to settle down and seriously detach. It's a HUGE struggle for me. I need to act as if on that one I think. Fake it till I make it because the real thing isn't working.

D is DEFINITELY getting more of H's attention than she did before. He was more of an "in the room" dad before. And if she did something he didn't like while he was on his laptop and in the same room with her, he'd bark at her and then resume his laptop viewing. He used to be super grumpy and snappy with her and now he's Mr. Letsgotothepark or Mr. Outforicecream. I'm glad he's focusing on her because his relationship is starting to get better with her and for that I'm glad HOWEVER, why could he not be THIS dad before BD? He's very concerned about how she's handling all this separation stuff and I think that is great. I hate that THIS is what is making him tune in as a father. I know he feels guilty but that's not why he's more attentive and involved. Maybe the pain he felt about our marriage prevented him from interacting healthily with her? I'm not willing to accept that blame though. I feel like the quality of his fathering is entirely up to him, good marriage or not. Am I wrong?


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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You're not wrong in thinking his parenting is up to him no matter what.

But you're mind reading in thinking he couldn't be a better dad because he was with you.

He chose to leave because it was time to make changes. Whether or not he needed to make those changes entirely because of your behavior or only partially, they most likely were a catalyst for other changes that he needed to make. So he's making them.

Whatever his reasons, the healthiest thing you can do is appreciate that he IS present for your daughter because this will make it all easier for her, however things turn out.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

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You're right. I am VERY grateful that he is present for our daughter. For her sake. For his sake. Just because. It's a GREAT thing and analyzing it any further is moot. He was an incredible father and is now even better because he's PRESENT and what a great gift!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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I don't think I would involve your H in the DB coaching just yet, but that's just my opinion. I'd continue monitoring results and ask your coach for his/her opinion about involving your H during the following session.

That's great that your H is more involved with your D now! I know that it stinks that he's doing so under these circumstances, but it's nice to see him making positive changes as well. Is there a way you can let him know that you see these changes and how happy they make you, without talking about your R or bringing up touchy subjects?


Me: 35, H: 37, no kids
Together since 2002, Married since 2007
IDKIILY: 2/2013
MC: 5/2013-6/2014
H stated he was REALLY done: 4/2014
I moved out 7/6/14
H filed end of 8/2014 but still hasn't served me
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Ss06, I only have one small tip for you. Everyone else on your thread is giving you such good support. This community is wonderful.

So get over to YouTube for a few minutes and look up "I am woman" by Helen Reddy.


M: 57 / EW: 52
T: 21, M: 8
S: 18, S: 15
Bomb: 1 Jun 14
EA Aug 2014 I think
PA Feb 2015 possibly sooner
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Hi Ss, just checking in and saying hi. I hope you are doing GREAT today! smile

Just to respond to one of your questions a few posts back, one thing that has been really hard for me is telling people (acquaintances) about the situation between H and I. And also continually getting surprised and sad messages and calls from people who he told like his family and friends. I hate it. I am even avoiding some people because I don't want to have to tell the whole story over and over. Of course my close friends and family know but there are tons of others who don't know yet. I dread seeing them and having to answer questions. If I don't tell then they eventually hear through the grapevine and get upset that I didn't share. Ugh.

Big hugs, Lisa B

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Originally Posted By: Old Dog
Ss06, I only have one small tip for you. Everyone else on your thread is giving you such good support. This community is wonderful.

So get over to YouTube for a few minutes and look up "I am woman" by Helen Reddy.





Done! And it helped. Thank you Old Dog. I forget that I'm not weak because I'm the LBS. I appreciate the reminder. ((()))


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

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Hi, Lisa, yes I am having a GREAT day because I got to kiss my D's cheeks last night AND this morning and that's my favorite thing to do in the whole wild world! It's a beautiful day!

I think saying "we're separated" to others just makes it more real, which is good because denial doesn't help, but it's hard. I'm going out with a few ladies for one of their birthdays tonight. My d has been friends with their kids since they were all 2. They each at separate times have slammed on divorce and what a horrible thing it is for the children and a break of commitment, etc. so I know there'll be judgement. I think because it's someone's birthday I'll hold off. It's not about me tonight. There's just really no "right time". I know you know. This blows... BUT as my post above states... I am strong, I am invincible!!!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
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I feel your pain about having to say "we are separated" when people accidentally loop you into a conversation together,

One thing that has helped me to hurt less while answering is to have a standard response.

Mine is -

We are separated. We have been best friends for 14 years, and I hope to be friends for the next 14.

I know it hurts, it will hurt for a while. But every day it hurts just a little less. There is hope.


Me: 35
Her: 33
D : 16
S : 9
Together: 14 years
Married: 12
She left 4/14/2014
Separated: 5/25/2014
OM Confirmed 7/2014
She filed 8/7/2014
I Filed 10/21/2014
Divorce final 2/12/2015
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Hi Ss, glad you are doing GREAT! Keep it up! smile

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