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Below is a text conversation with W. I had just Facetime'd with the kids and she had been pointing the video camera at herself to talk to me. Afterwards, she had texted me about something and I had told her I was at the new Whataburger in a town near where I live. I told her I was eating a burger she would like cause it had unusual toppings. I sent her a picture of it. The rest is what followed

W- Looks good

M- Speaking of looking good, you looked really cute with your pig tails

W- Haha thank you

M- About the only way to describe someone and use the word pig in the sentence and get a thank you from it smile

W- Lol you are right


There ya go 25... a non pursuing compliment smile


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Apr 2006
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2 things....

First - Pilot, for you specifically...

I see the whole compliment issue for you as a BIG red flag. I really do.

I just want to mention that it IS withholding of you to measure so much. (Meaning in part, the whole "she has to do/say it first" habit you have).

If I recall correctly you also were not one to say "ILY" very much, whereas your wife and her family were much more verbally expressive. So for you to keep being quiet on those issues, is disturbing. It was a big need of hers that would "cost" you so little, for you to resist changing that is a red flag to me. Truly. It does seem, well, selfish. OF course I could be wrong, but the word "Stubborn" and the word "Selfish" CAN Overlap. And stubbornness usually means "resistance" to something, like how you resisted uttering "ILY's" more often or even just once a day, or an authentic specific compliment seemed to put you at a disadvantage b/c you fear it'll be seen as pursuing. I think it'll be a 180 for you so she can't argue that you never say a nice word to her...this is such an easy way to do a 180 on something noticeable, I don't get your hesitation.

YES yes I understand your claim that you don't want to be seen as pursuing. But you are being oddly rigid about a suggestion generically listed in some guidelines by Sandi. It's not a law or "Rule" that prohibits all forms of pursuit that we are discussing. You imply that for you to be viewed as pursuing is some mortal sin; it's NOT.

It's a trait your wife has (WOA being a LL, and for most women, being complimented is a bare minimum requirement).

I'm pretty independent and feel like I have decent self esteem. But I once stopped dating a guy b/c he so rarely complimented me.

I knew he found me attractive - He told someone else that about me, but not me. Why?

Maybe it meant a loss of power to him, Or maybe he didn't want to be seen as "pursuing" me too much...?? Maybe he feared I'd take him for granted if he complimented me (I actually think he believed that, though maybe not consciously).

For me, it seemed selfish for him to withhold words of kindness. There were times I did dress up for him, which he never seemed to notice and I tell you this b/c at the time, I shared with my friends what was going on and it was unanimous, they all thought I should give him the boot, and I did. They said it was "too big" a red flag and that "it means something else in some other area of the R"...(I had smart friends).

The real reason was that I worried if I kept dating him for long, it would mean hits to my ego. I'd be doubting myself in time, wondering if he was attracted to me, or someone else more, or if I wasnt deserving of a kind word in his eyes, or if I had NO personal traits he felt worth flattering,

I knew he WAS stingy with compliments --but I didn't stick around to learn why. "Too much of a red flag". In reality, we all feared his stinginess with kind words meant other things would also be lacking...

So, food for thought...and I don't mean to belabor this point, yet it's probably a lot more important to women and your wife, than you realize.

In conclusion, I'd like you to consider (and post here if you can - but you don't have to),

the role you played in the marital problems. I'm unclear about what you believe your role was.

What is it you believe you erred by doing/not doing?

What would you do differently if you had it all to do over again?

And If your wife did have an affair, EA or PA, WHY would she?

What would SHE SAY were her reasons/justifications?

Bear in mind that it is a rare woman who has an affair - and does not feel justified. Men are more likely to have affairs in which "more sex" or "variety" is the only motive, than married women.

In one "affair study", almost 90% of affair women surveyed, reported dissatisfaction INSIDE the marriage as a leading cause, whereas only about half the men did. That's significant, and it might be why more marriages fail after a wife has an affair, than when husbands do.

I used to think it meant that husbands were less forgiving than wives (and there might be truth to that), but now I wonder if it's b/c the wives having affairs, tend to care more for their OMs than cheating h's care for their OW's...

Pilot, you need to dig deep inside you for this....REALLY deep and really bravely, b/c honest self assessment, and genuine personal growth -

require both bravery and honesty...


What do YOU believe your biggest flaws are, as a husband, as a father and as a man?

Think long & hard about that.

More generically now, let's talk about

when a LBSer becomes or almost becomes, a WAS.

I had that nearly happen to me.

But lest we forget, we came here first as LBSers. WE came here and we all said to our hypothetical (or real) spouses,

that "Love is a choice!!" and it certainly is, at least partly that.

So We have to apply that same mantra to ourselves, too.

We've been demanding that our WASs' not leave us or our families, b/c "THEY are unhappy" --we implored them to stay and work on the marriage.

Remember?

But wait, now WE don't "feel like it"???

Anyone see a tiny streak of hypocrisy there? Cause I see a big streak of it.


Marriage vows CAN be very hard to keep.

When is it that vows are hardest to live by??

When WE DON'T FEEL LIKE keeping them! -- & Because we don't know how we feel about our spouses.


(Which is exactly what the WASs said to us in the past, when they left us).


So we either apply the same standard to ourselves that we've been insisting our spouses live by,

or we STFU and never ever complain about them leaving us b/c we are now, in essence, leaving them.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and there are HUGE streaks of revenge in this scenario anyhow. We may not know it consciously but there absolutely is a part of us that wants to "even things out".

Make sure to identify those double standards and to eliminate them. It's a long hard process but WE are responsible for that.

It's what we've expected from our WASs, and it's literally the least we can expect of ourselves.

It's time for us to put our money where our mouths are, to live by the words we imposed on others, to walk the walk, to model the desired behavior for our families.

Make sense?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Thank you again for the very detailed response. I will go through and reply with the best of my ability and as honestly as I can.


Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
2 things....

First - Pilot, for you specifically...

I see the whole compliment issue for you as a BIG red flag. I really do.

I just want to mention that it IS withholding of you to measure so much. (Meaning in part, the whole "she has to do/say it first" habit you have).

If I recall correctly you also were not one to say "ILY" very much, whereas your wife and her family were much more verbally expressive. So for you to keep being quiet on those issues, is disturbing. It was a big need of hers that would "cost" you so little, for you to resist changing that is a red flag to me. Truly.


You are correct that in our relationship, I never really said ILY very much. I am sure I did during the 'honeymoon' period, as we often joking debate over who really said it first. And that does go back to my upbringing. We just never said it much in my family, so it never seemed 'natural' or 'normal'. I always thought I had shown it in different ways, but if WOA is her LL, and I expressed it in another language, then yea, I get that it really did not matter or get through as much. Remember, I had 2 BDs...more or less. Back in September was the real BD. It was her father who told me that one of her complaints was the lack of ILYs. So I worked on it. At first, I said it too much, as her dad told me to back off them a bit. After that, I found a nice groove, and it began to feel natural, and nice to me. I found the right balance at that point during our first reconciliation. But more on that R later....

Quote:


It does seem, well, selfish. OF course I could be wrong, but the word "Stubborn" and the word "Selfish" CAN Overlap. And stubbornness usually means "resistance" to something, like how you resisted uttering "ILY's" more often or even just once a day, or an authentic specific compliment seemed to put you at a disadvantage b/c you fear it'll be seen as pursuing. I think it'll be a 180 for you so she can't argue that you never say a nice word to her...this is such an easy way to do a 180 on something noticeable, I don't get your hesitation.

YES yes I understand your claim that you don't want to be seen as pursuing. But you are being oddly rigid about a suggestion generically listed in some guidelines by Sandi. It's not a law or "Rule" that prohibits all forms of pursuit that we are discussing. You imply that for you to be viewed as pursuing is some mortal sin; it's NOT.


By stubborn I mean I get set in my ways and my patterns. When I go to a restaurant, I usually order the same things. I wear the same clothing styles over and over. I find a comfort zone and stick to it. I make a decision and stick to it. That is how I am stubborn. If you can extrapolate selfishness from that, well, it was never by design. I am by far the least selfish person I know of. A statement nearly everyone who knows me will attest to. I freely give up time, money, an anything I have to offer to others, especially friends and family. I would argue I give love as well, but as i have learned from 5LL, I may not have been giving the right love. Again, not by design or selfishness, but not knowing any better.

Quote:

In conclusion, I'd like you to consider (and post here if you can - but you don't have to),

the role you played in the marital problems. I'm unclear about what you believe your role was.

What is it you believe you erred by doing/not doing?

What would you do differently if you had it all to do over again?

And If your wife did have an affair, EA or PA, WHY would she?

What would SHE SAY were her reasons/justifications?


The main roles I see I played in the demise of our relationship would be as follows.

Lack of verbal affection. We have discussed this heavily. I should have said ILY continuously, and not let that slack off. I should have COMPLIMENTED her appearance and her efforts to look nice with WOA instead of in my own way.

As our financial situation began to decline, I took a position which turned out to be wrong, that we would be able to weather the storm. I did not anticipate the economic downturn in my industry (real estate) lasting as long as it did. Throw the BP spill on top and it kind of put the nail in my coffin so to speak. I know security, including financial, is important to a woman, especially a SAHM. In hindsight, I should have ventured into a new industry sooner while capital was still available.

I should have made more time for 'date nights', especially after we moved away from family and our typical 'babysitters'.

I should have addressed her concerns more directly instead of with my usual 'coping' manner of making a joke, etc. Example, when we were looking at new houses in our new town to buy, we were looking in the 400-600k range. In this town, you really could not buy much. The houses in the neighborhoods she wanted were 800-1mil. As we got frustrated at not finding what we wanted in our price range, I would joke 'well, if we did not have the airplane we could have the house you wanted.' (at this point she did not like the airplane, and we did not use it as much as before) That stemmed from the fact I was unable to sell the plane for tax reasons/consequences. Or of she would come to me and say she needed money for something, I would say 'me too'. It is not that I was being intentionally dismissive, it just was my way of masking my sometimes panic at the financial situation, and I did not want to get her nervous...something she would do. hindsight I was wrong in that approach.

When we met, I was on top of the world. I exuded confidence, success, and I was just all around fun to be around. I was a truly happy person. Now, start adding up an economic collapse in my industry, toppled off with a BP spill which if it had come 4 weeks later our current financial position would be vastly different (lost sale and partnership in a large beachfront hotel/resort/commercial complex. Throw in 2 unsuccessful and arduous Congressional campaigns, being mauled by a pitbull, and moving to a new town where I knew no one and had no close friends to hang out with, I was not my previous happy confident person. Life had taken a toll on me and every time I thought I was getting back on my feet, life was kicking me right back on my butt. In hindsight, not sure how I could do anything different as far as being truly 'happy' although i always wore a smile in public and at home the best I could.

Those are some of the larger bullet points.

As for why she would have an A? Well, it could be any one of a dozen reasons from her dissatisfaction in our M to a character flaw. From what her father told me, her EA with the OM began because he was telling her how pretty she was, he was happy and fun to be around, and things just grew from there. As I mentioned earlier, our original BD was in September. The next BD I count is the day I first caught her with OM. Shortly before our S began, she confessed she never gave me or our M a chance after the Sept. BD. So the first reconciliation really was not a true reconciliation. She probably moved into an A because in her mind she was moving on.






Quote:

More generically now, let's talk about

[b] when a LBSer becomes or almost becomes, a WAS.

I had that nearly happen to me.

But lest we forget, we came here first as LBSers. WE came here and we all said to our hypothetical (or real) spouses,

that "Love is a choice!!" and it certainly is, at least partly that.

So We have to apply that same mantra to ourselves, too.

We've been demanding that our WASs' not leave us or our families, b/c "THEY are unhappy" --we implored them to stay and work on the marriage.

Remember?

But wait, now WE don't "feel like it"???

Anyone see a tiny streak of hypocrisy there? Cause I see a big streak of it.



I do not see any hypocrisy in taking a step back, just as the WAS did, and re evaluating the M and who the person I am married to has become. Especially if I am working on changes in myself. I see the person she has become and it is not attractive to me. Maybe it is a front, maybe it is not real, maybe I am not seeing her as she really is. Which is why I am still around doing what I can to save my M. The point of DB is to work on yourself. During that time, if your spouse comes back around, you can at that point reevaluate your relationship and decide if it is still something you want to save. Remember, I am only 50% responsible for my marriage falling apart. I can theoretically fix everything on my side, and still have 50% broken. I am not saying I WILL become a WAS, I am just saying right now I do not have a burning desire to be with my W at this moment.
Quote:

So we either apply the same standard to ourselves that we've been insisting our spouses live by,

or we STFU and never ever complain about them leaving us b/c we are now, in essence, leaving them.


To apply the same standard would be to require them to in essence go through the same self realization process we go through during the DB process. Which we know is not possible since we do not control their actions.


I think I got to most of your questions. I hope I was able to convey my thoughts clearly and as accurately as possible via typing.

Thank you again for your time, patience, and understanding.


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
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Pilot,

This is a bit wordy but I'm tired and that also means I'm tired of editing.

it isn't a 2 x 4 so much as an attempt to empathize with your wife. To see if we can imagine a few things she MAY have felt along the way.

I hope it won't seem as if I'm belaboring the point. Plus some of these are smaller issues than others so don't assume I am giving them equal weight.

So first off, I don't fully buy your view about the LBSer NOT being a tad hypocritical to become a WAS, but I take your point.

I'm simply arguing two different things.

When an LBSer "becomes" a WAS, it CAN be simply b/c their eyes are open to how their marriage really was or what it had really become/dissolved into.

So it's fair to assume that sometimes what really happened is the -

LBSer is saying "Wow, I didn't know this before, but now I do. I see that our marriage sukked. WAS did me a favor by leaving....so I don't care if the WAS wants back in now. I've seen the light."

This^^^ can happen.
But not in your case. You insist you had a great marriage at one time and I believe you. What your wife thinks may be different, but I believe you when you say it was a very good marriage at some point.

But I don't think it's the same thing at all, to have been the LBSer and have repeatedly implored the WAS to "Work on the m!! Love is a choice!",

and THEN

reverse the situation & position of the parties, only to pretend those same demands not be made to you. I think that's an unfair double standard.

Also, revenge is often a piece of this equation even when we are not aware of it.

The LBSer is hurt and wounded, and feels deeply rejected. In time, like when the WAS sees that they made a mistake, a part of the reason some LBSers are hesitant to reconcile is b/c they want to make the WAS sweat!

Not just b/c they want to be sure of their goal --- but b/c they want the former WAS to "get a taste of their own medicine". That, I object to.

So please be mindful of that^^, b/c I think it's at least a part of this equation for you. Plus you were quick on the draw to get the old black book out, and to show her that you could get a date in a heartbeat and would...so retaliation has peaked its' head in your situation. At least in my opinion.

OMG I just remembered that you're the guy who already brought an old flame to a kids' birthday party, right? That was you, correct? She is NOT going to think you are pursuing her b/c of compliments. We already covered how Unlikely it is that she'll think this b/c you have a history of moving on fast, and you shoved the divorce papers in her face, filled them out, demanded the confessions ETC.

Pilot stop kidding yourself. You want to do nothing but wait and see AND get a full confession about things you can verify, and that's a lot to demand and it's not very realistic. I think you are setting yourselves up for failure but somehow you want her to take the blame.

Also what is with this "I take 50% responsibility for my share of the problems"???

It's RARE that each party owns the same amount. Sure it takes 2 to make a marriage work but it CAN take just one to spoil it. It's rare when it's just one person but it's not impossible. TIl you mentioned the man you think she was with, the whole situation in your marriage sounded as if the problems were 90-95% on your end, wouldn't you say?

I mean, you were the one with all the demands and she met them for so long...and you were the one not speaking in her love language but expecting her to somehow still feel satisfied...

Pilot, your changes during the campaign and the injury/recovery period ( i mean the changes that were not desirable), were things she put up with, and waited out, right?)
You don't seem able to do the same for her, so why is that?

Since You lump the campaigns and dog attack into one time frame, I'll assume they ran consecutively. So that means SHE put up with a lot for a LONG TIME...(longer than you have been at THIS martial challenge, right?)

Where is the woman you fell in love with?

I think She's still in there, under the pain and anger and deeply wounded pride. Some incidents you don't recall but If I were a gambling woman, I'd bet there were some intense feelings of rejection or melancholy in her, while you recovered from the dog attack. Now she has shame, too.

You don't recall how you behaved while you were medicated and or in pain --or you have really convenient amnesia---, (which I relate to! I had a major surgery last Thanksgiving. (8 months ago now, & I only just NOW feel like myself again).

But The holiday season is a BLUR to me. I have very little recall. A few months of my life are just "gone", you know?

So I wonder Pilot...I wonder if maybe she saw it this way:

She was a single parent then,for all intents and purposes. Her love tank was not filled b/c you don't "do" her LL. This single parenting took place for so long it was hard to imagine what life would be like when you returned to her, IF you did, b/c she now had a routine...

but after a long public, non paying arduous political campaign, during which she was a real trooper, but for which she was not "rewarded" in public or private and financially it was devastating and a bit of a surprise to her (given what her dad told you she had said)

and the whole lifestyle was always centered around YOU.

Either you the would be congressman or you were the injured patient or you were the breadwinner who needed to be steeled for rougher times ahead, but you cannot be leaned on for support b/c that's not how you roll...

Her fears were not allayed by you.

As you now realize, your jokes about money and the "me too" lines when she had to ask you for money, were in your eyes, defensible and fully explainable. I can see that you are a bit embarrassed about it. I get that.

Just so you know, those types of comments would have punched me in the stomach then. I think she needed reassuring at a deep level and not just about money.

If I were a stay at home mom, which is risky for women these days (B/C If there is a divorce we have removed ourselves from the workforce, and lessened our ability to support ourselves or our children)
and

If I needed reassurance from you, the breadwinner of the family, the man who was going to be wealthy b/c he knows money/real estate, the man with the plane,

if I needed just to hear that we were going to be alright,

and then instead I got the brush off, well...OUCH.

Pilot, I think she was pretty neglected for quite some time.

weren't OWs a bit of an issue for you early on in the marriage or right before, when there were texts? I mean weren't there some incidents that made your w feel really insecure?

But if there is ANY validity to that, and if you also neglected her-- after she had endured a long period of pouring support your way, and you seemed to pull away from her when you were sick or felt "out of it", or didn't want to share the financial stressors with her,
(out of pride or the desire to protect her from the truth -which does not protect her in the long run)...

you shut her out. I bet she was very lonely and insecure.

It makes a woman feel close to you when you are treating her like a partner, sharing burdens you feel, but you were not sharing them.
You were deceiving her to protect her image of you, (who doesn't like being admired?) Can you see where pride played a role in this?

That may be easy to rationalize now, but then still, it was just dishonest. And it was disparaging to her really. It means in your eyes, she was too much of a child to expect her to cope. That's a bit condescending, don't you think?

So I'd add to your list things like "should have opened my heart and the balance sheet to her more, so she could be my partner and on 'our team' and not fear that things were being hidden from her, or that I was pulling away from her, let alone with my trusty black book always near by...should have let myself be vulnerable, and flawed"...

Pilot, my gut says you are a handsome man whom she saw as a good catch. But then you made some choices that tripped you up. Rather than owning up to them and seeking support from her, you chose to "nobly" shut her out and thereby cause her to feel less secure inside the marriage, more neglected,

And you got injured and were "unavailable" at best, rude and demanding at worst. This took place over a period of several months to a few years, and she began to feel neglected AND insecure inside the marriage.

Knowing your dating history as she does,

would it be that much of a leap for her to think/fear you were going to cheat on her or leave her?

Just asking. This is plenty to chew on. Sorry for its length.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Posts: 930
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Thanks again for your time. You hit on some good points, and completely off the mark on one (I'll get to it). But as always, you have given me lots to think about and I cherish the time and wisdom you are sharing.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc


LBSer is saying "Wow, I didn't know this before, but now I do. I see that our marriage sukked. WAS did me a favor by leaving....so I don't care if the WAS wants back in now. I've seen the light."
Close. Not that it sucked. I really was happy with my marriage. But I have also learned that my love language (WOA...go figure) was not being met for years. She started off that way. I was the greatest person in the world to her. The smartest, the most attractive, I was just flat out awesome to her and she told everyone constantly. It made me feel good. Somewhere along the way, it slowed down, and then stopped. I chalked it up to the honeymoon period being over and just life getting in the way. I suppose she always thought my LL was physical, because she always made sure there was never more than a day or two that went by without me at least having sexual pleasure. While I was happy about that, WOA IS my LL. Physical was like next to last. (A close second to WOA is QT). I also place a high value on trust. Whether it is with my friends, family, business colleagues. Trust is extremely important to me. And while I get the she lost trust in me during the M, it is different from having an A. If she lost trust in me during the M it was because of lack of communication. If you do not know she is not happy, how can you work to correct that? Having an A, then lying about it, then continuing it is a different ballgame altogether. I am not saying I cannot move past it and rebuild it. If I REALLY thought I could not, I would not be here in the first place.

Quote:


Also, revenge is often a piece of this equation even when we are not aware of it.

The LBSer is hurt and wounded, and feels deeply rejected. In time, like when the WAS sees that they made a mistake, a part of the reason some LBSers are hesitant to reconcile is b/c they want to make the WAS sweat!


I get your point on this. You may be close. However, I would say I am not out to HURT her in the process of winning me back. I would not do that. I am not out to hurt her, and never have been. However, where I think you may be close is that yea, there is a part of me that thinks ok, you made your bed, now sleep in it. Not a big part of me, but I would be dishonest if said that thought has not crossed my mind. And that is different from hurting her in the PROCESS of getting me back. That is a path which means there is no path back.

Quote:
Plus you were quick on the draw to get the old black book out, and to show her that you could get a date in a heartbeat and would...so retaliation has peaked its' head in your situation. At least in my opinion.


Yea, I was quick to do it. Heck I was thinking about it on the drive back to my home state. It is not retaliation. As I spoke of in great detail early in my posting on the forum, it was a coping method of moving on when hurt in a relationship. I would jump to a 'safe' ex where I knew I could get the emotional attention I would be missing from the previous relationship. And honestly, when I was driving back to begin my S, I was giving it thought. I knew of 3 women I could jump right into a R with of varying degree. To date though, I have only engaged one in a friendship. Nothing physical. No talk about any relationship between the two of us. Am I dumb enough to think it is not on her mind? Of course not. No boundaries have been crossed, and nothing has transpired that I would not have been comfortable had my W been in the same room.
Quote:

OMG I just remembered that you're the guy who already brought an old flame to a kids' birthday party, right? That was you, correct? She is NOT going to think you are pursuing her b/c of compliments. We already covered how Unlikely it is that she'll think this b/c you have a history of moving on fast, and you shoved the divorce papers in her face, filled them out, demanded the confessions ETC.


Yea, that was me. Honestly it was not INTENDED as a slap in the face to my W. I contacted this person when I got back to my home state after our S began. Turns out she is caring for her niece who happens to be the same age as my 3 year old. My W and I had agreed to throw a quickly put together Bday party for both of the kids a week after we got back and she was going to get the kids. Since my 5 year old had lived and had friends in this area before we moved away 2 years prior, he had plenty of friends coming. There was only 1 other child, 2, who would be close to my 3 year old's age. So it was convenient. However, I will not lie and say the appearance of it did not give me a momentary smile. And do not say I am evil and hurtful. She is the one who absolutely stated she was done with the M and said there was no way we could work it out. So it was not like I was dragging OW in her face when she wanted to work on our M. Again...back to the 'you made your bed' scenario.

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Pilot stop kidding yourself. You want to do nothing but wait and see AND get a full confession about things you can verify, and that's a lot to demand and it's not very realistic. I think you are setting yourselves up for failure but somehow you want her to take the blame.


25, you may be completely right. I honestly do not know what I want. I am more paralyzed with fear than I am dead set moving in a direction. It is not so much a confession I am looking for, but a reason to jump back in with both feet. I suppose I could right now. But right now the water is muddy, and I do not know how deep the bottom is.

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Also what is with this "I take 50% responsibility for my share of the problems"???

It's RARE that each party owns the same amount. Sure it takes 2 to make a marriage work but it CAN take just one to spoil it. It's rare when it's just one person but it's not impossible. TIl you mentioned the man you think she was with, the whole situation in your marriage sounded as if the problems were 90-95% on your end, wouldn't you say?


That 50% is borrowed from the DB forum, and I believe book. Of course nothing is ever 50/50. However, I would argue strongly against the idea that it was 90-95% on me. There were many things I did not like. But I am the kind of person who does not dwell on the little things. I did not dwell on my LL not being spoken for years. I figured that is just how things were and I went along happy I had beautiful healthy kids, and beautiful wife. We never fought, and I thought that was what defined a great marriage.


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Pilot, your changes during the campaign and the injury/recovery period ( i mean the changes that were not desirable), were things she put up with, and waited out, right?)
You don't seem able to do the same for her, so why is that?

Since You lump the campaigns and dog attack into one time frame, I'll assume they ran consecutively. So that means SHE put up with a lot for a LONG TIME...(longer than you have been at THIS martial challenge, right?)


What do you mean I am not able to do the same? From how she explained her unhappiness to me, it seems pretty much on par with where I am. She said she was unhappy for a long time, and never considered it was me that was making her unhappy. Then one day, she said it was me. Why do I not get that same freedom of discovery?

The campaigns began in 2009 and ran through 2012. The dog attack happened several months after the last election in 2012. So I guess you can say they ran concurrent. I would argue your statement of her putting up with a lot in the sense that campaigning was an investment towards our family's financial future. As the breadwinner, any gain from those efforts benefit her equally. The family benefits. I can see how the time away can cause her stress. But not different than anyone else who has a H or W who works full time. The main difference was that for the first time, I did not set my own schedule and could not just take off whenever I wanted. My schedule was set by the campaign staff. The dog attack (I think you addressed it somewhere else, but I will answer here) was a mess. I felt, and basically was useless for the first couple of months. She had to drive me everywhere, including Drs and physical therapy, and I spent a lot of time at home on the couch or in bed. The medication really screwed with my mind, and so I get it that she may have felt the extra burden of having to shoulder all the extra responsibilities. I really have no idea how much/little this time affected her outlook on the marriage. You seem to place a high amount of value to this. However, if the tables were reversed, and let's say, she had an injury, or a sickness which incapacitated her for many months, and I was here on the board saying how the affects of my wife's injury/sickness made me not like her as much, I am pretty sure you would not even talk to me anymore, and probably sign off by calling me an ahole.


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Where is the woman you fell in love with?

I think She's still in there, under the pain and anger and deeply wounded pride.


Maybe. And that is why I am still here putting in the work.

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Now she has shame, too.


???
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But The holiday season is a BLUR to me. I have very little recall. A few months of my life are just "gone", you know?


I know exactly what you mean. I cannot for the life of me recall anything about my youngest son's first birthday, and I was there.




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and the whole lifestyle was always centered around YOU.


I see how you derive this, but the intent was always to give the family a better future. Minus the dog attack of course. Everything I have done, every thing I do is to ensure I am able to provide for my family in the best way, and give each member of my family the best opportunity to follow their own dreams and paths to happiness.

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As you now realize, your jokes about money and the "me too" lines when she had to ask you for money, were in your eyes, defensible and fully explainable. I can see that you are a bit embarrassed about it. I get that.

Just so you know, those types of comments would have punched me in the stomach then. I think she needed reassuring at a deep level and not just about money.

If I were a stay at home mom, which is risky for women these days (B/C If there is a divorce we have removed ourselves from the workforce, and lessened our ability to support ourselves or our children)
and

If I needed reassurance from you, the breadwinner of the family, the man who was going to be wealthy b/c he knows money/real estate, the man with the plane,

if I needed just to hear that we were going to be alright,

and then instead I got the brush off, well...OUCH.


I get that my approach was wrong. And that is why I listed it as one thing I would have done differently. No one is perfect, and this was a great example of where I was less than perfect.

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weren't OWs a bit of an issue for you early on in the marriage or right before, when there were texts? I mean weren't there some incidents that made your w feel really insecure?


NEVER. I never had any contact with any person of the opposite sex behind my W's back. The few times when I would get a text, or phone call, or in some way contacted by an ex, or woman who my wife did not know, or might have been uncomfortable had she known I was doing something in secret, I ALWAYS gave full disclosure. I would tell her "hey, XXX called me today. She asked me this, or wanted my advice on this, etc." I always was hyper sensitive to any kind of behavior which could remotely be construed as inappropriate. If I received a text, I always handed my phone to my W and let her read the entire conversation. If she was in the room when it came in, I always let her know. I always kept every contact brief. I honestly had zero desire in any other person, other than my W. She never asked for this level of disclosure. I offered it freely. And she never had any reason to suspect I would ever be unfaithful. Much as I never suspected it would happen on her end. Until after BD that is.

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It makes a woman feel close to you when you are treating her like a partner, sharing burdens you feel, but you were not sharing them.
You were deceiving her to protect her image of you, (who doesn't like being admired?) Can you see where pride played a role in this?


I get this. And I get where I was wrong. As I stated, I never thought the economic downturn, especially in my industry, would last as long, or be as severe as it was. I always kept the bills she had in her name paid, and her credit was and still is rock solid. I fell on the financial sword many times to keep her insulated. I always figured things would turn for the better sooner rather than later. It was not about protecting my pride. It was more about keeping her from worrying. As she tends to worry more about things than I would.


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Pilot, my gut says you are a handsome man whom she saw as a good catch. But then you made some choices that tripped you up. Rather than owning up to them and seeking support from her, you chose to "nobly" shut her out and thereby cause her to feel less secure inside the marriage, more neglected,


Humility aside, yea. I am by many standards a handsome guy. Throw in charm and charisma (haha, ok in person, not on a divorce forum) and she probably did think I was a good catch. I thought she was a great catch. But I get your point about how the events in our marriage could make her feel neglected.

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Knowing your dating history as she does,

would it be that much of a leap for her to think/fear you were going to cheat on her or leave her?


Seeing as how I have never cheated on anyone in my entire history of dating and marriage, I doubt she felt I would ever cheat on her. But also she knows many of my ex's would love another chance at a relationship with me, so I get that could make her feel threatened. I cannot control how she feels about that. All I can control is my own actions, and I never gave her any reason to suspect or even remotely believe I would leave her, or fool around on her.

Thank you again from the bottom of my heart 25. Our interactions give me much to think about, and reflect on. You help me see things which may be right in front of me, but blocked from my view or just need to be re examined from a different perspective.


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
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Pilot, as the wife of a very successful man, I'm just going to say that I would much rather he had been somewhat less successful and a lot more present in our marriage and family. All your arguments about your wife getting the benefit of your hard work overlook the fact that your ambition was being served at the expense of her sense of being cared for. I've read several time about how your LL was missing but where is your mention of hers?

I'm not saying this to be harsh, but when you excuse your hard work by saying you did it for her, you're kind of ignoring what she may have more truly valued in you.

I know this is tricky because there's a lot of male pride involved and men *need* to feel they are successful at providing for their families and when you get to a certain level of achievement it's kind of not ok to just stop there if you can go higher. But if you're going to do the work of being here you'd might as well hear that many wives would prefer you did just that. Sometimes providing for your family's future can become an end in itself and you lose track of why the family matters.

Last edited by Maybell; 07/24/14 12:13 PM. Reason: Typo

Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

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Pilot, I used to hate it when people would give me criticism, helpful or not. My sense of self was so fragile, I couldn't hear it, so I instinctively went into attack or defend mode. I had to prove I was right. There were no chinks in my armor.

What I lost in the process was valuable insights into how I was, how others saw me. Things I could work on and change, possible make my life better.

I can almost hear the wheels in your head turning when someone gives you advice that's counter to your version of you. You're not even taking it in cause you're preparing the answer in your head to show how wrong the poster is.

Again, drop the defensiveness. Cultivate listening with an open mind. Just because you may have flaws, doesn't make you a flawed individual.

Until you can listen and really hear (or read and really understand), you're just pi$$in' in the wind.

Last edited by labug; 07/24/14 03:01 PM.

Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Originally Posted By: Maybell
Pilot, as the wife of a very successful man, I'm just going to say that I would much rather he had been somewhat less successful and a lot more present in our marriage and family. All your arguments about your wife getting the benefit of your hard work overlook the fact that your ambition was being served at the expense of her sense of being cared for. I've read several time about how your LL was missing but where is your mention of hers?

I'm not saying this to be harsh, but when you excuse your hard work by saying you did it for her, you're kind of ignoring what she may have more truly valued in you.

I know this is tricky because there's a lot of male pride involved and men *need* to feel they are successful at providing for their families and when you get to a certain level of achievement it's kind of not ok to just stop there if you can go higher. But if you're going to do the work of being here you'd might as well hear that many wives would prefer you did just that. Sometimes providing for your family's future can become an end in itself and you lose track of why the family matters.


Thanks for the reply. I had mentioned on several occasions how I recognized her LL was missing. And I acknowledged it as a shortcoming on my end. I get what you are saying. We just had goals for our family, and I saw my job as finding a way for us to meet those goals. Ironically, it was when we moved, and I spent MORE time at home that the camel's back began to break. Her complaint was if the financial situation was getting worse, what was I doing at home. Of course, much of what I did could be done remotely, with the occasional travel for meetings.

I will reflect on what you have written as I do see your points.

Thanks again!


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 930
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Originally Posted By: labug
Pilot, I used to hate it when people would give me criticism, helpful or not. My sense of self was so fragile, I couldn't hear it, so I instinctively went into attack or defend mode. I had to prove I was right. There were no chinks in my armor.

What I lost in the process was valuable insights into how I was, how others saw me. Things I could work on and change, possible make my life better.

I can almost hear the wheels in your head turning when someone gives you advice that's counter to your version of you. You're not even taking it in cause you're preparing the answer in your head to show how wrong the poster is.

Again, drop the defensiveness. Cultivate listening with an open mind. Just because you may have flaws, doesn't make you a flawed individual.

Until you can listen and really hear (or read and really understand), you're just pi$$in' in the wind.


Hmm...How can I reply without being defensive? The catch 22 as any reply could be interpreted that way. smile

I do see what you are saying. And I am sorry if I come across as defensive. It is just how I process information. You (generically speaking, not you in particular) can tell me WHAT to do. I on the other hand, want to know WHY. You may have the correct answer and path towards a goal. It is just me to want to understand the why. Why does this work. Why 'this' direction and not 'that' direction. If feel if I have a better and stronger understanding of the WHAT to do, when I take that path I will be more informed should any contingencies arise. I guess it is a carry over from business.

I kind of think of this forum, and getting advice from the vets as reading the last chapter of a book to find out what happens. I just then want to go read the the rest of the chapters to find out how it happened.

Make sense? Trust me, I am soaking everything that is said in with a sponge. Just because I challenge something, or engage in a healthy back and forth, does not mean I am not taking what was said to heart, and even applying it to my daily life.

Thanks again for devoting your time and thoughts to my situation, and your efforts to help me improve myself.


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,428
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A way to reply without sounding defensive is to say something like,
"Oh, I hadn't thought about it that way. But I'm going to think about what you said because there may be some truth to it."

(btw, when someone's words 'sting', that usually means there is truth to it. I heard that on this forum).

One thing you might try is to re-read your posts before you submit them and just simply TAKE OUT anything that sounds like you are defending yourself or making excuses.

For ex: "It is just how I process information" --> that is an excuse or defense.

What if you experimented with simply taking out any of those kinds of phrases, and seeing how that sounds to you? Then do some thinking about what bothers you about that, if anything? That might be an interesting experiment.


Me 38 H 40
D 3
T 8 M 6
BD 10/2013

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