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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: pilot
Continuing from the previous post, I wanted to say our texting about the schools was pleasant and upbeat. Yesterday she had been initiating texts all day, which ended abruptly when my 5 year old said we were going to meet a friend for dinner. This morning she sent me a text letting me know she got some documents I had sent UPS to her and she closed with a THANK YOU!!!!. I said you are welcome and she sent more texts afterwards which included winks and lols and different 'cute' emoticons. Even our text discussion about moving to her hometown included all of these things. The texting on her end came to an abrupt stop when I had replied I did not know where I would live up there, but I would search the internet for places for myself.

Now, it would be mind reading to speculate as there could have been a million reasons as to why she stopped at that point. But this is twice her texting has come to a sudden halt when the subject pointed to a life of me without her in it (a possible date and a home for myself). Two times could purely be coincidental. 3 or 4 times would make a pattern. However IF, and purely speculative for the sake of discussion, but IF it was a reaction for that very reason, how would that even be possible when she was the WAS?

You need to STOP saying this^^. Do you have amnesia? You put D papers in her face more than once & you did it first. You filled out parts of it too, and told her where "She had to fill it in". You kept telling her to "Confess all" OR get a divorce...(what kind of choice is that when we know you'd file if she did confess or have her file if she didn't....what??)

You admit you totally "reacted in emotion" but then seem to excuse it b/c after all, you were upset. Then you told her YOU wanted to wait and see before filing, presumed that = agreement, but when she filed "behind your back" and told you the next day, you continue to act as if HER actions were unfounded, out of the blue, and horribly sneaky. She reacted emotionally, like you. Stop with all the double standards.



I have to say I was much more comfortable while being NC and detached. Out of sight out of mind. These past few days has definitely thrown everything back into my mind.


And maybe SHE feels the same?


I use the phrase 'behind my back' because she specifically addressed me one afternoon, letting me know she had the papers filled out and was ready to file. She wanted to know what I thought we should do. I asked her if we could discuss this later this evening. She agreed. Even though she agreed, she went and filed before that evening. So whether you call it behind my back, or something else, it was not expected per a very civil and somewhat friendly conversation minutes before she got into the car to file.

As for the content, we had agreed we would discuss terms/custody and come up with the best agreement we could, and anything we did not agree on, fill in the spot where you could put things you did not agree on, and a judge would help figure it out. We were going to leave the lawyers out of it if possible. She went to a L, as did I for a consultation. The L she went to helped her fill out her petition. He did it as if he was representing her, and by that I mean he did it in an aggressive fashion. It just cemented that we would have a contested divorce because of the way it was written, and the way it portrayed me, and other content. I do not blame the L. That is what he is supposed to do. It just complicated things IF the intention was to keep things as amicable as possible.


I am not upset at the fact she filed, as we had previously discussed the benefits of filing before our S because we would be leaving the state. It was that she filed after asking to talk about it, but before we actually talked about it (8 hour span). And then not even telling me, but allowing me to tell her why I think it would now be best to wait and see if a S would make a difference. Just seemed underhanded.

Again, I am not perfect. I did throw it in her face under emotional duress. And I was pushing for it. And I get that maybe she did it thinking she had to take a defensive position in fear of something I might do. She did mention she thought I had gone to my home state the week prior to file and not tell her.


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
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Detachment is not indifference.

Here...a post originally by a DBer named Peanut.


II. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.

Our ego gets wounded, and then we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.


Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals. On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."


Hope that helps. Complimenting your wife costs you nothing emotionally or in any other way. Considering it would have been a reciprocal compliment anyhow, it appears like a cold response in return for a warm one from her.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Also,

You wrote:



She was pretty happy about the compliments during the first R. She would always say thank you or acknowledge my compliments in some way. So they worked in that regards.

So you chose to stop a behavior that was working??? Wow...


Now when I do not compliment her in return as part of my detach/DB I guess its kinda like having her ask a question and I do not answer. It almost becomes a gorilla in the room. Which is why I brought it up. I suppose I could try a small one or two next time, just to see how she responds. But I do not want to give the impression I am rushing back.

You worry she'd believe you are "rushing back"? Really? and if she thought that, it would mean, WHAT?? (You "lose"?)

it's a freaking sentence. You "suppose" you could "try a small one or two next time"...OMG, Why does it "cost" you so much to say a kind remark to your w? I think this is revealing and you need to dig a bit here.



The 'cost' I was afraid of paying was backsliding. Remember, the concept of DB was extremely new to me, maybe a month or so. And when people here say sometimes STFU is the best course of action, I chose STFU. I knew I was making progress, and I did not want to ruin it. I would rather take the tortoise approach and get to the finish line than the rabbit approach and miss my exit. Again, I am not perfect, and I will not do this right most of the time. I posted weeks ago about wanting to make sure she knew there was a road back, but I also wanted to make sure she knew the road was not as simple as we pick up where we were prior to all of this. The A and OM has to be discussed/disclosed to move forward. And while I do not think we are there yet, I do not want to get it wrong and miss the proper or best opportunity to ensure the discussion/disclosure happens prior to something physical taking place between us. And I was really concerned about that happening the other day.

As for my mom, yea, maybe I never forgave her completely. I have had a much better relationship with her than my brother, but that means little. She really screwed my dad over. I have heard her reasonings. I heard the bs from her OM at the time. I even told my W when this first started I saw us having the same relationship as my dad does with my mom. It is a flaw I have for sure. I will not deny or hide from it.

I get why my mom wrote what she did. I get it was done from the heart and with good intentions. I just wish she had not.


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Jun 2014
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: pilot
How do you 'properly' limit progress until OM/A is covered? As I stated before, I really do not think W is ready to work on M.


All ^^^guess work & mind reading on your end, which you do a lot of and it's part of how you got here. Remember? Why would your wife believe YOU wanted to work on the m?

Be honest here...if I were her, and I had hugged you often, reached out repeatedly, complimented you with no return comment b/c you cannot manage a single kind remark on my looks or appearance, including when I've made an effort to look good to/for you, I would think

"he's done. Maybe we can be decent co-parents" (what some folks mean by the word 'friends')...


We have had a lot of progress from where we were a couple of months ago, but for all I know, it is just towards a friendship and nothing more.

Maybe you could keep guessing and not knowing...b/c you think the "rules" are laws that are one size fits all (They are NOT!) and plus, not asking means you take no responsibility for a risk or result...right? See how self serving this can get? I know ---b/c I'm a great rationalizer. As a L, that's what I did professionally, i.e. rationalize for others choices.

And we do it very well when we are in our own marriages with our egos and pride and emotional investments...but it's a dangerous thing when we no longer recognize the difference between a well thought out HONEST approach, based on articulable goals, and a simple justification for doing what is easiest or most appealing to us, or a punitive response we label as "just" or "fair".

If that is the case, then I do not want a friendship while she is still in contact with OM. But the catch 22 is I cannot ask about OM.

Yes you can. There needs to be an R talk of some sort at some point. When there is, however that takes place or whenever (we'll get to that), THEN you have to say how you feel without first waiting to see if she takes the first risk.

Stop making this about who "caves" in first or who puts out the olive branch first. That's a scorecard habit and it's destructive and based on false pride (as opposed to healthy self respect) and not based on love. In my eyes, she has already reached out physically, more than once and you have withheld, knowingly, more than once. I'm mildly surprised she is still hanging in there.



If her intent is to maybe rebuild our M, it would seem she is trying to ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room which is OM. That also, cannot happen. But, I cannot ask about OM.


You're both ignoring it! And what about your role in things? Remember how long she put up with your "medicated self" and the campaign and the financial problems and the zero pay for all that work? Remember when you admitted she put a lot of deposits in the love bank, for months, and you didn't.... Remember?

Is it now ALL about the EA/PA she had or might have had? (I love that you have no proof an OM still exists at all, but are planning on conditions that need to be met by her, while not discussing any of this....more of the same old poor communications).


So how do you get past this? Wait until she brings it up? What if it is never brought up by her?


Gee, I don't know... maybe you constructively confront it? And maybe that requires a 3rd party who is pro marriage, to facilitate a healthy discussion.

She has to know that you ARE open to working your butt off to save this m b/c you know how good it once was and that's not a small thing...but it would take effort on both parts obviously.

She also has to know that you won't keep rehashing history and throwing the "A" (whatever it was) in her face or hang it over her head like the sword of Damacles.

I'm not sure you can do that b/c you keep bringing up the "she filed behind my back" issue and how it had "nasty" wording in it, WHILE ALSO agreeing that the lawyer was just doing his job.

You keep wanting to punish her for it, even while knowing that it's uncalled for, (mixing business and emotions), but I am more and more of the belief

that this goes back to your inability to forgive, which I think is part of the whole "shebang" here.

Meaning, if you could forgive and you knew it, you'd be a lot quicker to admit flaws in yourself (b/c you'd believe YOU could be forgiven, so it's not such a huge ordeal to admit making mistakes ). You would not be so fearful of communicating openly, b/c you'd know that bumps in the road were not fatal...

Pilot, you are not your father and she is not your mother.


Maybe there is something to that^^^ sentence you need to process??


It would stand to reason she would NOT want to discuss OM regardless of what her intentions were.

Wow, I don't agree at all. You are presuming negatively, again.

If it were me, (and about 22 years ago it almost was) I would think I'd address my "affair", WHY it happened and how we'd guard against finding ourselves there again, and I would think you'd want that too. (If you don't own your part of it, why wouldn't it happen again? That's another reason why I'd think you'd be very motivated to learn from this).

I'd be very open to doing what it takes to regain your trust. But I'd want to know that you are not going to make me climb Mt Everest for years, BEFORE you decide IF you'll do your part in the m, or before you give me a compliment (before I've "really earned it")...you can't mistreat me to 'get even" or make me "prove my love" by aborbing nasty treatment in retaliation --or watch you date or hint about dating...

BTW, why didn't you tell her "it's just a friend" when she asked who you were going with to dinner?

Pilot...I know why. But face that yourself.

In short...I think She needs as many guarantees as you do, maybe more.

How does the subject get broached when you are uncertain if her intentions are just a friendship or possible R?

Suggestions? Thoughts? Winning lotto numbers?



You talk, that's how. Yes that means taking a risk. But it's what healthy adults do, & it sure beats the guessing game.


You are right. She probably has no reason to believe I want to work at our M or R. Some of it was by design, and some of it just fell into place. I suppose I could take a risk and bring it up. I had kind of hoped and maybe somewhat expected she would bring it up.

That is why I am here asking the questions. So people like you who have been down this road can help point me in the right direction.

As always 25, I appreciate your input and insight. You are always welcome to chime in on my thread smile


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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Pilot,

Originally Posted By: pilot
I get why my mom wrote what she did. I get it was done from the heart and with good intentions. I just wish she had not.


Why not? Because you feel compelled to side with your Dad and display your loyalty to him? Or does the letter bring up uncomfortable truths under the surface about your M?

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PIlot

Hey I'm not trying to do a tit for tat thing here but there is a lot in your thread and much of it overlaps with other people's issues so maybe it's worth looking at this in depth.

In other words I'm not trying to pick apart everything you say but I will say there are positives in your situation I hope you won't over look.

I sense a lot of love on both sides but wounded egos, too. You both sound prideful and resentful, and neither of you talks openly enough.

I think you are understating how wounded she was and for how long. I really don't think you recall how you behaved while medicated (I had surgery in November and the pain meds were wonderfully effective, but I have very little recall of the holidays and that's a lot of weeks!)

Thank God I was confined to an 8 ft radius (broken leg/hip) so I can't have done too much damage. But don't skim over that so frequently, or so easily, b/c I think you tend to ignore how ignored she was and for how long. That's not to mention the whole campaign ordeal, for which you both earned nothing. I noticed you again mentioned her inability to earn much, but again, you minimize or skim over how much she invested in YOU. HER career did not benefit by you running, but yours probably did. So you do have "something to show for it", whereas she doesn't. And aren't you both living at parents homes right now?

Anyhow, let's check this out...

You wrote:

Yes, I had discussed my plan on filing Chapt 7 with W prior to our S. It is my understanding she is working. But that came from my dad who said she had put a place of employment under her FB status. I have never done anything to verify whether or not she is working. She is living at her parents so her bills would be minimal.

See how the communication has improved so much....(yes, I'm being snarky. But this is an issue YOU identified as a problem. Yet you are continuing with it as before). Still No direct talks that are "uncomfortable"...and whole a lot of mind reading and planning based on things that might not be real or ever happen. How needlessly painful and what a waste of time.

Continue this old negative behavior, at your peril.


Nasty language aside, the terms were ridiculous and very unreasonable.


Excuse me but YOU said that her lawyer "was just doing his job" to make you look bad and get her the most he could (zealous representation, etc). Sure, Your pride was wounded and your feelings were hurt, but if I understood you correctly, nothing she said was a lie. And you had gotten over it, so why keep bringing it up?

May I submit why I think you do harp on it so often? It goes back to the inability to forgive or let go of past hurts. It's what you learned from your parents and continue practicing. But Pilot, I think forgiveness is a learned skill and though it's a critical element of Christian belief, which you profess to have, it's not taught to us nearly enough. I also know of NO long term marriage that is happy, that did not contain chunks of forgiveness on both sides, usually one side more than the other.

The marriage vows often say "from this day forward", which I think is genius and mandatory.

you also wrote:

[/b]

I understand why it was written the way it was. You shoot for the stars and hope you hit the moon at the end of the day. However, because of this, IF/WHEN I have to file a reply, it will also have to be in a fashion where I go way out in my own favor. Ultimately I am pretty certain of where it will end up. But if I start from that point, I will only end up drifting more towards her petition in any negotiations. Paying all the bills under her name is one of the conditions. While not unreasonable, if I concede those now, I lose the ability to negotiate them in the future.

This^^^ is all part of legal strategizing which you keep wanting to punish her for. Either let it go, compartmentalize it (business versus emotion) or fall on your sword for it.

But there are too many mixed signals on this. Move on...


____


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 930
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Originally Posted By: Wonka
Pilot,

Originally Posted By: pilot
I get why my mom wrote what she did. I get it was done from the heart and with good intentions. I just wish she had not.


Why not? Because you feel compelled to side with your Dad and display your loyalty to him? Or does the letter bring up uncomfortable truths under the surface about your M?



One it was a letter based on less than all of the information available. Two, letters go against the non pursuing. And last, maybe some resentment at her trying to insert herself into something important in my life when she made a choice to be absent from much of it.


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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Pilot,

Oh boy..boy..it is clear that you still have tons of unresolved anger and resentment toward your mother. Better get working on the forgiveness process. From that point and on, maybe...just maybe...you can mend and restore your broken relationship with your mother. Why not be the bigger man here?

I would hope that your heart isn't made out of granite.

Here is the thing...

I have parents who were both WASes and engaged in affairs on both sides. Divorces, acrimonious times, and alll that. I look at them as humans who tried THEIR best at that time and their past actions didn't lessen my love for them at all. Yeah, they sure could have handled certain things differently. They know that I have complete unconditional love for them.

Why? Because I forgive them for their stupid actions.

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Originally Posted By: pilot
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Pilot,

Originally Posted By: pilot
I get why my mom wrote what she did. I get it was done from the heart and with good intentions. I just wish she had not.


Why not? Because you feel compelled to side with your Dad and display your loyalty to him? Or does the letter bring up uncomfortable truths under the surface about your M?



One it was a letter based on less than all of the information available. Two, letters go against the non pursuing.


Pilot, I am screwing my head in the ceiling at this moment. cry cry sick
Please stop saying it's against the RULES...OMG...

And the letter came from your mother, not you.
The "rules' would not apply anyhow, not to mention that they are guidelines and merely assembled one afternoon and used as generalities

with the proviso that you NEED to know your own situation well enough to know when NOT to apply something. Hence your claim about the confusion re: "not complimenting your wife'
even though it's her LL and

even though it was an identified problem between you two AND

even though you knew it was having positive results


you claim to believe you had to stop doing what worked, b/c it was "pursuit".

Pilot, I call BS on that. You're a lot smarter than this^^. At least be more honest with yourself if not us.



And last, maybe some resentment at her trying to insert herself into something important in my life when she made a choice to be absent from much of it.



Okay, So you are still punishing your mom. She is either literally unforgivable and or you are literally incapable of forgiving. So, what do you want to teach your kids about this?

(What about when they "fail" you?)

And YES there is a pattern here.

Do you see it?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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Pilot,

You may not realize how you're coming across to us here.

What I am seeing from you here is that situations are very Black & White to you as evidenced by your comments that this "falls under Sandi's rules" or "is contrary to DBing." How's that helping you develop and maintain healthy relationships?

Flexibility and acceptance, buddy....ok?

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