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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Pilot

I'll have to read your whole thread to better advise, but can you update me on what your w has SAID she wants from you, if anything,

or are there a lot of positive interactions, without specific comments made?

I do see more value in the actual interactions than comments made, meaning actions speak louder than words.

I'll try to find your whole thread, but see if you can give the answer to the above question.


Our interactions have been very positive. It started a few weeks ago with her initiating 'long' hugs, progressed into her sending frequent texts (non essential/kid related) and phone calls. Our only immediate 'obstacles' or potential conflict points are money for bills and where the kids will be living in 3 weeks to go to school. She has not stated anything along the lines of our M or our relationship, nor has she said she wants anything from me in terms of behavior/changes which could affect a future relationship. The only communication if you will in regards to our D is basically non communication. She filed for D 60 days ago, but never served me. She has not made mention of our D since she filed. She has 60 days give or take from now to serve me or it disappears.

Her demeanor during her 2 day trip here was even more friendly/close than any prior. She gave what COULD be interpreted as openings for progression. I emphasis COULD because there is no way of knowing. By openings I mean she was supposed to come down for 1 night, but after she was here she said she can stay an extra night. She had made plans to stay at a friends, but made a comment she would be willing to stay with me. Her frequent hugs that she never seems to want to let go of, and the tight squeezes during the hugs. Her enthusiastic acceptance when I asked her to dinner the night she was here, her making plans for us the day she was leaving (early breakfast, beach outing) when she could have easily just left. She was very heavy on the compliments, and acknowledging/thanking me for things we did, as well as stating how she was having/had a good time.

It is all positive, but at the same time, could be meaningless in regards to working on M or any kind of R other than just friendship. It could even be just a ploy to play my emotions to get what she wants (financial support, kids living with her, etc). That would be a worse case, but anything is possible.


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Jun 2014
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pilot Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
If that is the case, then I do not want a friendship while she is still in contact with OM. But the catch 22 is I cannot ask about OM


Why not?



sandi I was under the impression the LBS is not supposed to bring up the OP.


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
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Originally Posted By: Tarheel
Pilot, I share that same question. Not all WAS are going to come back to the LBS saying 'I'll do whatever it takes.' Those are the 'lucky' ones. I imagine some come back with the mind set of 'Let's be friendly and see if there's a future for us.' In this case, I would see no reason for WAS to want to remove OP from their life (just yet) or even address their status. I guess it would be up to each LBS to decide if that's something they're willing to accept or not??

At least that's what I struggle with.


From what I have read, a R or M cannot be worked on while there is OP in the picture. I can see how she might want to test the waters to see if there is even a road home. But I am not interested in being an alternative. In my situation, IF, and big IF, she was telling the truth about who OM was in the first place, odds are extremely good she has not seen him since May, and likely will not again for some time. He is supposed to be headed back to his home country. But I will not accept any contact, including email/FB/texting if I was to return. Too easy for an EA to pop back into the picture.

Last edited by pilot; 07/18/14 07:53 PM.

Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 930
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pilot Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: oad
I would ask her....I would say that things are good for you right now and that you are doing very well, but you refuse to continue down this path as long as the O/M is in the picture...set your boundary.


Good point. But that makes the assumption I know what path she is walking down. At this point, I KNOW nothing. I can assume a lot, but am certain of nothing.


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
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Originally Posted By: pilot
Continuing from the previous post, I wanted to say our texting about the schools was pleasant and upbeat. Yesterday she had been initiating texts all day, which ended abruptly when my 5 year old said we were going to meet a friend for dinner. This morning she sent me a text letting me know she got some documents I had sent UPS to her and she closed with a THANK YOU!!!!. I said you are welcome and she sent more texts afterwards which included winks and lols and different 'cute' emoticons. Even our text discussion about moving to her hometown included all of these things. The texting on her end came to an abrupt stop when I had replied I did not know where I would live up there, but I would search the internet for places for myself.

Now, it would be mind reading to speculate as there could have been a million reasons as to why she stopped at that point. But this is twice her texting has come to a sudden halt when the subject pointed to a life of me without her in it (a possible date and a home for myself). Two times could purely be coincidental. 3 or 4 times would make a pattern. However IF, and purely speculative for the sake of discussion, but IF it was a reaction for that very reason, how would that even be possible when she was the WAS?

You need to STOP saying this^^. Do you have amnesia? You put D papers in her face more than once & you did it first. You filled out parts of it too, and told her where "She had to fill it in". You kept telling her to "Confess all" OR get a divorce...(what kind of choice is that when we know you'd file if she did confess or have her file if she didn't....what??)

You admit you totally "reacted in emotion" but then seem to excuse it b/c after all, you were upset. Then you told her YOU wanted to wait and see before filing, presumed that = agreement, but when she filed "behind your back" and told you the next day, you continue to act as if HER actions were unfounded, out of the blue, and horribly sneaky. She reacted emotionally, like you. Stop with all the double standards.



I have to say I was much more comfortable while being NC and detached. Out of sight out of mind. These past few days has definitely thrown everything back into my mind.


And maybe SHE feels the same?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Here are some things you've written lately I want to explore.

You wrote:


One of my W's complaints with me was my lack of verbalizing affection/recognition. For example, I used to never say I love you that much. I worked on that during the first reconciliation. One of the things that drove her to her A according to what her dad said she told him was that I never would say how pretty she was etc.

Fast forward to the present. The past few meetings in person she has complimented me on my appearance. And while she looked nice, I never returned the compliments...per DB as I interpreted. Am I correct?

No you are not correct. The "rules" are NOT Rules! They are guidelines Sandi assembled based on MWD's writings. They are not meant to counter the180s you need to do or to counter the needs of your w.

She TOLD YOU that she needed WOA and you know it's one of her LL and that you have NOT fulfilled it...I cannot believe you actually think it's a "rule" to do what your wife does NOT feel loved by. I think you wanted to punish her some more or just do what's easiest for you. If you notice, except for a few financial things (and those are hotly debated by you) you take the easiest emotional path for yourself at every turn. You don't put yourself out there at all. You want to "minimize your risk" while maxing out hers.


I know it keeps within the Sandis rules,


They are NOT "Sandi's rules", they are just some general bullet points she gathered based on the books teachings. They even say "if this does not apply to your situation don't apply it" and in yours ---WOA are something that was missing in your m (and in your childhood), which your wife needs (and most women, I daresay).


but at the same time, it would be a 180 of importance. As of now, I do not plan on starting complimenting. Unless one of the many who are smarter than I chime in and tell me I am missing something.


I don't know that I'm smarter but I do know your approach of withholding compliments and words of affirmation is you choosing to NOT speak in your wife's love language and to continue in the same old destructive patterns she found so unrewarding and which you once admitted was a flaw you wanted to work on.

Stop getting amnesia.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
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Also,

You wrote:



She was pretty happy about the compliments during the first R. She would always say thank you or acknowledge my compliments in some way. So they worked in that regards.

So you chose to stop a behavior that was working??? Wow...


Now when I do not compliment her in return as part of my detach/DB I guess its kinda like having her ask a question and I do not answer. It almost becomes a gorilla in the room. Which is why I brought it up. I suppose I could try a small one or two next time, just to see how she responds. But I do not want to give the impression I am rushing back.

You worry she'd believe you are "rushing back"? Really? and if she thought that, it would mean, WHAT?? (You "lose"?)

it's a freaking sentence. You "suppose" you could "try a small one or two next time"...OMG, Why does it "cost" you so much to say a kind remark to your w? I think this is revealing and you need to dig a bit here.


Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 07/18/14 08:30 PM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
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You also wrote this about your R with your mom, (who had written you and your w a letter about working on the M, in part based on HER experience as a WAW with regrets)...


As for the relationship with my mom, I guess a part of me wishes I had a good relationship with my mom. It is not from her lack of trying, that is for sure. But I also remember how she left my dad, how she treated him, how she basically walked from me and my brother to pursue what she thought was greener grass with her OM. And when that grass turned out to be astro turf, she tried to come running back. My brother barely speaks to her period. I just found it annoying she would send that letter. I understand she had good intentions, but she really has less than 10% of the info as to what has gone on in my M.


I want to make an observation here. Seems to me that you have zero frame of reference for forgiveness in your family history.

You refuse to forgive your mom for leaving your dad, despite her MANY overtures to you and your brother (and father). They "still rarely speak."

Also, if I read it correctly, you never asked her for any type of explanation or to find out why she did what she did, nor did you want to hear if or why she regrets it.

Her letter to you and your w was borne out of hard learned lessons she had the humility to share with you and your w. I think you totally missed that. Yet It's huge.

But you were mad at her for writing a note to you two. Gosh, no offense Pilot b/c I know you want to take the high road, but IMO, that was very small of you. You are missing the big picture here.

In the grand scheme of things, your inability to forgive is probably part of why you don't address conflicts openly. You fear that "too much damage" will happen if problems are actually looked at.

Maybe that is b/c You never saw conflict resolution, you never saw forgiveness and you don't seem able to envision what redemption looks like (b/c you won't allow your mother to redeem herself, even as just a parent).

So how would you know how to do any of those? That applies to yourself, to your mom and to your wife.



What kind of legacy do you want to leave your children? Bear in mind the legacy your parents left you with...


Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 07/18/14 08:37 PM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 930
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pilot Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Here are some things you've written lately I want to explore.

You wrote:


One of my W's complaints with me was my lack of verbalizing affection/recognition. For example, I used to never say I love you that much. I worked on that during the first reconciliation. One of the things that drove her to her A according to what her dad said she told him was that I never would say how pretty she was etc.

Fast forward to the present. The past few meetings in person she has complimented me on my appearance. And while she looked nice, I never returned the compliments...per DB as I interpreted. Am I correct?

No you are not correct. The "rules" are NOT Rules! They are guidelines Sandi assembled based on MWD's writings. They are not meant to counter the180s you need to do or to counter the needs of your w.

She TOLD YOU that she needed WOA and you know it's one of her LL and that you have NOT fulfilled it...I cannot believe you actually think it's a "rule" to do what your wife does NOT feel loved by. I think you wanted to punish her some more or just do what's easiest for you. If you notice, except for a few financial things (and those are hotly debated by you) you take the easiest emotional path for yourself at every turn. You don't put yourself out there at all. You want to "minimize your risk" while maxing out hers.


I know it keeps within the Sandis rules,


They are NOT "Sandi's rules", they are just some general bullet points she gathered based on the books teachings. They even say "if this does not apply to your situation don't apply it" and in yours ---WOA are something that was missing in your m (and in your childhood), which your wife needs (and most women, I daresay).


but at the same time, it would be a 180 of importance. As of now, I do not plan on starting complimenting. Unless one of the many who are smarter than I chime in and tell me I am missing something.


I don't know that I'm smarter but I do know your approach of withholding compliments and words of affirmation is you choosing to NOT speak in your wife's love language and to continue in the same old destructive patterns she found so unrewarding and which you once admitted was a flaw you wanted to work on.

Stop getting amnesia.


Believe me I struggled internally with this. Every ounce of me WANTED to return compliments, and even offer them freely. I am keenly aware of them 'working' and being something she wanted. However, it was my understanding (right or wrong) that I was to give the impression of detachment and moving on. So my actions were to basically show indifference. Yea she looked really nice when I would see her. And yes I could have very easily given a genuine reply of "thanks, you look very nice yourself'. I just did not think that was keeping in line with what was outlined in DB. Kind of like not saying "i love you". If was was wrong, i was wrong. It was not done out of apathy, but out of a conscious and controlled effort to maintain what I had understood as the best path to rebuild my marriage...as counterintuitive as it was.

And it may very well be WOA are her love language. But am I supposed to show love while she is in the middle of an A? That is a serious question btw. I thought the intent was to show her what life without me was going to be like.

I honestly have no clue as to the right path. I am guessing the best I can based on what I read, and do my best to get insight when possible. Sometimes replies to questions posted do not come in time to deal with an upcoming situation and I have to revert to the safest choice.


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
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Originally Posted By: pilot
How do you 'properly' limit progress until OM/A is covered? As I stated before, I really do not think W is ready to work on M.


All ^^^guess work & mind reading on your end, which you do a lot of and it's part of how you got here. Remember? Why would your wife believe YOU wanted to work on the m?

Be honest here...if I were her, and I had hugged you often, reached out repeatedly, complimented you with no return comment b/c you cannot manage a single kind remark on my looks or appearance, including when I've made an effort to look good to/for you, I would think

"he's done. Maybe we can be decent co-parents" (what some folks mean by the word 'friends')...


We have had a lot of progress from where we were a couple of months ago, but for all I know, it is just towards a friendship and nothing more.

Maybe you could keep guessing and not knowing...b/c you think the "rules" are laws that are one size fits all (They are NOT!) and plus, not asking means you take no responsibility for a risk or result...right? See how self serving this can get? I know ---b/c I'm a great rationalizer. As a L, that's what I did professionally, i.e. rationalize for others choices.

And we do it very well when we are in our own marriages with our egos and pride and emotional investments...but it's a dangerous thing when we no longer recognize the difference between a well thought out HONEST approach, based on articulable goals, and a simple justification for doing what is easiest or most appealing to us, or a punitive response we label as "just" or "fair".

If that is the case, then I do not want a friendship while she is still in contact with OM. But the catch 22 is I cannot ask about OM.

Yes you can. There needs to be an R talk of some sort at some point. When there is, however that takes place or whenever (we'll get to that), THEN you have to say how you feel without first waiting to see if she takes the first risk.

Stop making this about who "caves" in first or who puts out the olive branch first. That's a scorecard habit and it's destructive and based on false pride (as opposed to healthy self respect) and not based on love. In my eyes, she has already reached out physically, more than once and you have withheld, knowingly, more than once. I'm mildly surprised she is still hanging in there.



If her intent is to maybe rebuild our M, it would seem she is trying to ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room which is OM. That also, cannot happen. But, I cannot ask about OM.


You're both ignoring it! And what about your role in things? Remember how long she put up with your "medicated self" and the campaign and the financial problems and the zero pay for all that work? Remember when you admitted she put a lot of deposits in the love bank, for months, and you didn't.... Remember?

Is it now ALL about the EA/PA she had or might have had? (I love that you have no proof an OM still exists at all, but are planning on conditions that need to be met by her, while not discussing any of this....more of the same old poor communications).


So how do you get past this? Wait until she brings it up? What if it is never brought up by her?


Gee, I don't know... maybe you constructively confront it? And maybe that requires a 3rd party who is pro marriage, to facilitate a healthy discussion.

She has to know that you ARE open to working your butt off to save this m b/c you know how good it once was and that's not a small thing...but it would take effort on both parts obviously.

She also has to know that you won't keep rehashing history and throwing the "A" (whatever it was) in her face or hang it over her head like the sword of Damacles.

I'm not sure you can do that b/c you keep bringing up the "she filed behind my back" issue and how it had "nasty" wording in it, WHILE ALSO agreeing that the lawyer was just doing his job.

You keep wanting to punish her for it, even while knowing that it's uncalled for, (mixing business and emotions), but I am more and more of the belief

that this goes back to your inability to forgive, which I think is part of the whole "shebang" here.

Meaning, if you could forgive and you knew it, you'd be a lot quicker to admit flaws in yourself (b/c you'd believe YOU could be forgiven, so it's not such a huge ordeal to admit making mistakes ). You would not be so fearful of communicating openly, b/c you'd know that bumps in the road were not fatal...

Pilot, you are not your father and she is not your mother.


Maybe there is something to that^^^ sentence you need to process??


It would stand to reason she would NOT want to discuss OM regardless of what her intentions were.

Wow, I don't agree at all. You are presuming negatively, again.

If it were me, (and about 22 years ago it almost was) I would think I'd address my "affair", WHY it happened and how we'd guard against finding ourselves there again, and I would think you'd want that too. (If you don't own your part of it, why wouldn't it happen again? That's another reason why I'd think you'd be very motivated to learn from this).

I'd be very open to doing what it takes to regain your trust. But I'd want to know that you are not going to make me climb Mt Everest for years, BEFORE you decide IF you'll do your part in the m, or before you give me a compliment (before I've "really earned it")...you can't mistreat me to 'get even" or make me "prove my love" by aborbing nasty treatment in retaliation --or watch you date or hint about dating...

BTW, why didn't you tell her "it's just a friend" when she asked who you were going with to dinner?

Pilot...I know why. But face that yourself.

In short...I think She needs as many guarantees as you do, maybe more.

How does the subject get broached when you are uncertain if her intentions are just a friendship or possible R?

Suggestions? Thoughts? Winning lotto numbers?



You talk, that's how. Yes that means taking a risk. But it's what healthy adults do, & it sure beats the guessing game.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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