1 step forward, 1000 steps back - part 2

[mdu]

Prior thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2467445&page=10

Thanks so much again to everyone following along and contributing!

[mdu]

Up early this morning and already worrying about the plan for tonight's discussion.

I know folks have said that it's his mess, he needs to clean it up but shouldn't this ideally be a mutual problem solving discussion?

For instance, one thing I keep thinking is if we just had more time that could make quite a difference. More time to reconnect and rebuild our relationship, more time to work on ourselves, more time to get H home. Basically more time to get our relationship on more solid footing to face this. H could buy us some time by working at home, doing some travel (I could go with him), taking some vacation time.

Is this something I should offer up? I know obviously let H speak first and I would only offer up if it seems like he's genuinely trying to solve and wants my point of view.

What really kills me is the timing of this. Given we are in such a fragile state I just can't imagine it being any worse. I feel like it's so brazen of this woman to do this, I don't know what she knows about what's going on with H and I but obviously she has zero concerns about the potential of facing me or my kids for that matter. It's actually feels a little scary, like I wonder if she's fully expecting to come up here and win H back and if she doesn't, what will she do next? I definitely feel like no matter what I will need to show up at the office at some point to 'mark my territory'. This will be so hard for me, I have very purposely not wanted to ever see this woman because I did not want to deal with a clear imagine of the two of them. She's always been a vague blob in my mind and I really wanted to keep it that way. This is really forcing me to face up to things I was hoping to avoid, maybe ultimately that's a good thing.

One random thought. In terms of keeping it together tonight, I think one thing I'm realizing is I need to focus on myself first and foremost. Just do and say the right things, regardless of what H is doing or saying. That is what I should do no matter what, whether interacting with H or anyone else for that matter. I'm going to keep it to a phone call so I don't have to worry about things like body language, just tone and my words. Also, so I can take some notes and post here for feedback.

[mdu]

I also keep coming back to that I need H home. I need to feel like we r a team to face this together & that he's solidly with me. As long as we're separated I don't feel that way. I know people disagree with this but my gut keeps saying the only way through this is as a team & separated is not a team

[mdu]

Ok, back on plan. I am just realizing that even though I have a million thoughts around what I want/need I don't need to put anything out there TONIGHT. That I should use the time to JUST LISTEN, NO MATTER WHAT H HAS TO SAY. It doesn't mean I don't get a chance to state my needs and/or boundaries. I need to know where his head is at, I need more information to make the best decision here and that's how I need to approach tonight. And I know from my history if I put something out there in reaction to what H has to say it will NOT go well. This is about ME and ultimately showing to myself that I CAN do this. I can be emotionally strong no matter what comes my way. That is the person I WANT to be. Give me strength to be it.

[mdu]

P.S. My plan for today is to NOT obsess over this. Do whatever I can to distract myself. Stop procrastinating at work. Go for a walk at lunch. Do something fun with the kids tonight. Stop obsessing over how unfair, how unjust, what a victim I am. I don't know if this is healthy thinking or not but I was telling a friend that I feel like OW is attempting to make a really aggressive play for H. She was like "Well then it's on!" I must admit, that thought really kind of motivates me. This woman will not take away my H and break up my family, she does not know who she's messing with!! Maybe this is not the best way to motivate myself but if it works and helps me have the motivation to keep my emotions in check, maybe that's ok?

I'm going to stay away from the boards today and just check in at lunch and this evening in case anyone has any final words or wisdom/encouragement before I talk to H tonight. We will speak at around 9pm.

Thanks again to everyone for your support. Seriously don't know what I'd do without you all. Especially yesterday when the IC I saw completely sucked. I'm not giving up (yet, although that experience does not at all help this IC skeptic), I got a referral from a friend and left a VM to make an appointment with someone else. Wish me luck that she can fit me in relatively soon.

[Wonka]

MDU,

I am glad you are taking a break from the boards for a while today. You've been given the necessary tools from posters yesterday...it is all right there for your perusal and review.

I know folks have said that it's his mess, he needs to clean it up but shouldn't this ideally be a mutual problem solving discussion?


What you say seems to make sense. However, it is important for H to do the heavy work here and clean up his own mess. You don't want to swoop in and contribute. Otherwise how would he learn that his choices has consequences? Like a boy breaking a window by hitting a baseball in the neighborhood. His parents will say, buddy...you made a mistake and you need to apologize and pay for the damage. Same with your H.

For instance, one thing I keep thinking is if we just had more time that could make quite a difference. More time to reconnect and rebuild our relationship, more time to work on ourselves, more time to get H home. Basically more time to get our relationship on more solid footing to face this. H could buy us some time by working at home, doing some travel (I could go with him), taking some vacation time.

Engaging in 'what ifs' isn't doing you or H any good. This is the reality right now. Life will throw curve balls your way without any warning. The OW move is one of them. You're trying to take back control by wanting to have H home to relieve your own anxiety and fears. Not good.

Maybe H might be able to work from home. You just don't know what is possible at the company. It is up to the company's president/CEO. There are some things that we cannot control when it comes to the workplace issues.

In terms of keeping it together tonight, I think one thing I'm realizing is I need to focus on myself first and foremost. Just do and say the right things, regardless of what H is doing or saying. That is what I should do no matter what, whether interacting with H or anyone else for that matter.

Don't make it all about you. It is about the M. That's where the focus needs to be. You're a team in the M.

I also keep coming back to that I need H home.

That need is feeding into that anxiety. It is not a good way for H to come home. You want to see that H wants to come home because 1) he wants to 2) you both feel ready. Not out of need, but out of a desire to do so.

MDU, you are strong, smart and independent. You don't need anyone to boost your self-esteem. It is all on you.

This is about ME and ultimately showing to myself that I CAN do this. I can be emotionally strong no matter what comes my way. That is the person I WANT to be. Give me strength to be it.

Yes, you can DO this! If you hear something painful or difficult, just take a deep breathe and say, "H, this is very hard to hear. I need time to digest this information."

My plan for today is to NOT obsess over this. Do whatever I can to distract myself. Stop procrastinating at work. Go for a walk at lunch. Do something fun with the kids tonight. Stop obsessing over how unfair, how unjust, what a victim I am.

That sounds like a good plan! You got this!

Before you meet with H, just review this list:

-Put on a nice outfit
-Smile when you greet H
-Be sure to break the heavy discussion with light, fun comments and jokes as appropriate
-Be sure to focus on working together as a team--"how can we face this together? what are your thoughts/ideas?"
-Allow H to come up with some solutions
-Be sure to have the spotlight on YOU two not on the OW
-Calm, cool, and collected


Sending you positive vibes tonight!

[Starsky309]

mdu,

I would make your plan for tonite to have NOTHING to do with the content of the conversation, and CERTAINLY not on any outcomes or decisions coming from it.

My counsel to you would be to make a goal for yourself that is centered ENTIRELY on how you react to what is said -- how you come across.

"I will be calm, I will thank him for his honesty, I will validate and I will listen." THAT would be my mantra.

If you could pull that off??? No . . . change that . . . WHEN you pull that off . . . you will have taken a HUGE step.

The decisions aren't going anywhere anyway, right?

You need to be able to learn this skill anyway (how to react to disturbing news without attacking or flipping out); the fact that it will likely ALSO make you more attractive to your husband . . . and make him feel safer about re-committing 100% to the marriage . . . is a bonus.


Starsky

[Train]

I'm entirely in agreement here.

mdu, you had that epiphany on your own without anyone even chiming in:

Tonight is a night to listen. Work on your reactions. You can and WILL blow your OWN mind tonight with how you handle this. I'm creating that for you.

The decisions will be made later with the information you receive tonight. And if a discussion comes up about a solution, think: WE ARE A TEAM. Don't deny your H the dignity of his own struggle. (That's a nicer way of saying "let him clean up his own mess.)

And I'm in total agreement with Wonka that you want your H home because he wants to be there ... and you're both ready. A dear Buddhist friend reminds me: "Nothing urgent is important. And nothing important is urgent."

Remember: you and your H are a TEAM. You're wearing the jersey. You're the one.

Thinking of you often and much today.

[mdu]

Thanks everyone. Can't say how much I appreciate all the support and guidance. I'm a very goal oriented person so this statement alone really helped, Starsky: "My counsel to you would be to make a goal for yourself that is centered ENTIRELY on how you react to what is said -- how you come across."

I can't quite explain it but I can feel in my bones when I'm truly on the right path. I think it happens when I feel like I'm being the person *I* truly want to be (forget about H). And a good listener who can keep their emotions in check in a crisis is part of the type of person I want to be.

So far my morning has gone well. Did some easy work that did well to distract me. Had a couple of meetings. Had to run to S's camp because I forgot to pack his lunch (Doh'!). Feeling good that despite this mess I am able to pull myself out of it and feel better, even if for just a few hours. Going to do my best to keep it going this afternoon and evening. The afternoon is going to be a bit tougher because I don't have any meetings but I think I will make one with my boss to talk about something fun/interesting like my career path! He's always up to chat. Also would like to get out for a little walk. Will probably do some more 'easy' work like clean out my desk and email. Good distractions and don't require too much focus. I'm planning to do at least 1 thing that I have been procrastinating on, that always makes me feel a lot better. Hoping that my cleaning lady made it to the house today so when I get home the house looks good which will lift my spirits a bit (she's always rescheduling --- I need to dump her!).

Ok, signing off for the afternoon. Will check in once more this evening but for the most part, I think I'm good.

[mdu]

Gah, so didn't quite make it to this evening. My PMA is slipping a bit. Seriously, not busy enough at work! Was really good until about 2pm, though. Going to make myself find something to do now, I need to find some flow!

[Devaste]

mdu,

Glad to hear you are doing so much better. You sound calm cool and collected. I like your plan. Smart woman! Goal setting I like it! Even better focused on you! Keep your strength and battle going. I hope I can get to the point where you are. Good luck, and thanks for your encouragement always.


Dev

[mdu]

Thanks Dev. I really appreciate the support.

Unfortunately my PMA is really declining. I am just so, so sad. So sad that H and I are in this place. It feels like I need to brace myself for anything --- including H saying he doesn't really know what he wants or even, it's over. I know some will post and tell me to be positive but I feel like that actually gets me into trouble because I expect that things will work out and then keep getting blindsided that H is really not 100% there. My heart literally hurts thinking about the A and where we might be headed. It's just awful.

Right now, I feel like I can still be strong for the call and keep my goals in mind: focus first and foremost on controlling my reactions and presenting myself well, listen and validate.

I'm going to try hard to turn my negativity around. I know that in a lot of ways I should be thankful and many would be happy to be where I am now. At least it seems I am being given a *chance*, even if H is still somewhat on the fence that's better than certain he wants to leave me. And even if he's thinking of her obviously he's not so sure about her either, otherwise he wouldn't have spent all this time with me and talking to me about all of this. If I can stick to my goals tonight I think I can really earn points for team MDU. I want a win so badly, for myself and for all of us here working so hard!

[Starsky309]

Right now, I feel like I can still be strong for the call and keep my goals in mind: focus first and foremost solely on controlling my reactions and presenting myself well, listen and validate.

There. ^^^ Fixed it for you.

[mdu]

Dang your good. Thank you! Really, the clarity around what I need to do is enormously helpful!! I am seriously going to write that down in big red letters and keep it in front of me the whole conversation.

[Starsky309]

I'll say a prayer for you, mdu. You got this. NO DECISIONS need to be made tonite, other than your OWN decision that you will no longer fly off the handle and be emotionally reactive.

This will be huge for you, when you do it. Everything else can WAIT.


Starsky

[Wonka]

MDU,

I am with you in spirit tonight! You got this, baby!

[mdu]

Thanks!

About 90 minutes to go and my heart beat is already starting to pick up pace.

A couple of things to remind myself: feelings come and GO (I just need to reread my own posts to remind myself of that, just look at how much my feelings have gone up and down just TODAY, lol!); feelings can't KILL you!

Think of me tonight surrounded by sticky notes with all these little mantras written on them, lol!

[Ss06]

Go out and get that win, mdu!! I don't know you but I'm pulling for you! Listen, listen, listen!! You got this!!

[Train]

Thinking of you, mdu!!

[mdu]

So the conversation happened. I would say it went pretty well in terms of me controlling myself. Had one weak moment but then quickly got back on track. Unfortunately I think it went quite badly in terms of H and his interest in doing what I need to feel safe but I’m interested to hear others perspective. I took notes as best I could, interested in feedback!! Did I totally, totally screw up? It was a really tough conversation because he did NOT want to talk and had kind of a defensive tone. I asked a lot of questions, I don’t know if that was the right thing but if I hadn’t, there would have been NO conversation. Ugh, I really don’t know what to do now. I know everyone says that I don’t need to make any decisions right now but I’m really anxious because she’s coming MONDAY and H and I are more disconnected now than EVER. This latest development has really put a strain on us. Interestingly, H did not bring up the transparency plan at all. Which I coincidentally gave him the other day. And he has not let me know about meeting with an individual counselor, something he said he would do. All does not bode well IMO. But he’s such a bad communicator that it’s truly like pulling teeth so I don’t how to factor that into all of this. I’m kind of feeling like I need to just go totally dark (or as dark as you can with kids).

*Started out with lots of silence. Each apparently waiting for the other to say something.
*Chatted about kids a little to break the silence.
*Another LONG silence
*Me: So do we have anything to talk about tonight? I’m wondering what you’re thinking and feeling about things.
*H: I don’t know. I’ll go and get my work done and that’s that
*Me: Have you come up with any ideas or solutions to help me feel safe in the marriage?
*H: I don’t know what to do. I could work from home sometimes but that’s not really feasible. Do you have ideas?
*Me: No, not really. How do you think you will feel seeing her?
*H: Awkward
*Me: Do you think it will stir up other feelings for you?
*H: I can’t answer that until it happens
*Me: What will you do if she tries to come into your office and talk to you?
*H: I will tell her not to. I can shut the door
*Me: How close will her desk be to yours?
*H: About 20-25 feet away.
*Me: So there’s really no avoiding her?
*H: No
*Me: What will you do if you’re both there late?
*H: In her role she works certain hours and leaves by a certain time. I will be sure to leave when my friend D does so I’m never in the position of being alone there with her.
*Me: Where exactly did she move to? Why did she move?
*H: She moved to be close to her sister in X city.
*Me: Do you find it surprising that she would put you both in this position?
*H: I don’t know, it’s a much closer commute to where she has moved to. I can’t imagine her passing it up.
*M: How do you think she'll act around you?
*H: I don't know, we're at work so she'll make it about work
*More long silences so finally I decided to sum things up:
*Me: So can you just sum up again the things you are thinking in terms of helping me feel safe in the marriage.
*H: I can make sure I am not alone in the office with her. I won’t talk to her unless it’s work related, there will be meetings with her that I won’t be able to avoid.
*M: What about social events at work, like going out to lunch? What if everyone goes to lunch and she gets invited?
*H: Well I will have to go sometimes otherwise it will look weird if I don’t go every time she is invited.
*M: (here is where I lost it a little): So you would go to lunch with her? But H! that is how the A started!
*H: (annoyed sigh)
*M: Ok, thanks for your honesty and thanks for answering all my questions. Do you have any other thoughts or ideas?
*H: No
*M: Ok, thanks, have a good night, good-bye.

[mdu]

It's seriously taking ALL of my willpower to not call him back & ask him if we're trying to reconcile or not...because it sure does not seem like it. But he is also seriously the most defensive human I have ever known so maybe that colored the whole conversation. The whole thing was just seriously off. Ugh! Hope someone can chime in with feedback relatively soon. Feeling so frustrated & disappointed

[mdu]

So, I'm going to fess up. I did call him and totally, totally screwed up. Yup, I failed the big test. I can't even bring myself to detail it, I am so ashamed. I didn't yell at him but I did put a ton of pressure on him about reconciling and moving back home. Yup, let my anxiety rule me once again. Let's just say at least now it's TOTALLY clear to me that we are not at all piecing, not even close. And yes, my actions have pushed us even farther away from that now. I just suck. I really feel like I need to go dark, for my own protection, because I really cannot take this back and forth with him. And can't even begin to imagine how I'm going to deal with her being in his office next week other than to completely disengage from him. I can't ML one day and then the next wonder if he's hanging all day with her at work (and possibly more). I just can't do this, I'm not strong enough.

[JCred]

I would like to ask you this...

Let's say someone with "healthy self esteem" is in this situation.....(and I say this because your self esteem seems to be low right now.) Making these types of decisions in that condition causes people to do things they would never do when they have the right kind of self esteem.


I believe they would say... "What in the hell am I doing here even considering this?? It's one thing to forgive an affair, but even THINKING about it being ok to have a man and a woman who have had a RECENT affair working 25 feet from each other 8 hours a day and thinking it is ME that should be learning how to cope with it is total nonsense, I not only can't do that to myself, but I WON'T do it. End of story"

Now.. Let's say you try to make this work... Let's say that it doesn't and you end up divorced. Let's say he ends up with her... Let's say that 5 years down the road and you are healthy emotionally, self esteem back, and really happy...

I believe you would look back and say the same thing the above person did.. "What in the hell was I thinking, I can't believe I even thought so low of myself that I let that happen. THAT will never happen again to me. I don't need that in my life."

I am saying this because I just want YOU to make sure what your heart is truly telling you and that you aren't just going along with what some of the others are saying. Maybe your emotions are all over the place for good reason. It's almost like asking for pain.

Maybe.. And I do say maybe.. If you are reconciled and doing great 5 years down the line and suddenly your husband and the OW end up with a chance to work in the same office again... then MAYBE you would be ok with it... But NOW????

In other words.. There really is NOTHING wrong with you saying you can't and won't do it. Just strong and firm. No anger. Just resolve. I don't think you would look back and be sorry down the road.. Maybe now you would go back and forth.. But NOT down the road. Down the road when your self esteem comes back... I believe you will say you were GLAD you were strong...

It's great that you are wanting to make changes and I believe you do. Asking you to make changes and asking you to do this is two very different things.

Starsky.. With what you have gone through.. What do you think you would do if this same situation came upon you now? Taking mdu out of it. With what you know now, what would you do or say?

[Devaste]

mdu,

You've got this. Don't be so hard on yourself. Mistakes happen. Step back, calm down and process. What your dealing with is incredibly scary, and your anxiety is normal. Process for a bit and work on a technique to keep yourself focused. A cue you can use maybe. Keep your head up high. This isn't supposed to be easy or everyone would do it . Your doing great!

Dev

[mdu]

Thx Dev.

Unfortunately I am in really bad shape. H really gave me very little hope that he is willing/able to partner with me and help me feel safe in the marriage. It all started off so badly with him just being totally silent, it was clear he did not really give serious thought to me and how this is impacting me. While people may read through our exchange and feel that he gave some decent answers I can't emphasize enough the negative tone throughout. In the end he was quite mean and cold, just like he was during the A. It feels like her coming up here is kicking it all up again for him and we're back to the beginning. And the thought that I then 'misbehaved' AGAIN and likely pushed him even closer to her is just more than I can bare. I feel just awful about myself and that my kids are the only thing keeping me even remotely going at the moment. I am so devastated (again!). I seriously am not sure how I will get through the day and I totally can't even imagine facing next week when she will be in the office with him, I am in so much pain right now. I am really hoping I can find a way to start to pull out of this pain.

[Starsky309]

mdu,
Mistakes happen.

Yes, they do. But mdu you CAN'T keep making the SAME mistake, over and over again. Your anxiety is playing right into your husband's "See how she is?? This'll never work" fears (which are legitimate, I might add).

This "I just can't help myself" thing, I'm calling b.s. on. You had all the support in the world here yesterday and you still couldn't wait until the morning (or even later last nite) to get some feedback.

I'll save my comments for your HUSBAND for later. Right now, the goal was for YOU to remain calm and not go off on him.

I would ordinarily not be in favor of going dark (or even dim) at the stage you guys were at, but your inability to control your emotions and not let him "get" to you is causing further damage each time it happens, so yeah -- I think you need to do a hard-core Harley "Plan B" here, with an intermediary and everything (more on that later). Your husband may or not respond to that, but I think it gives you your best chance.

Sorry, but I calls 'em as I sees 'em, and coddling you isn't going to help your marriage.


Starsky

[Wonka]

MDU,

Whew. Today is a new day. Yup, we all make mistakes during our weak moments. Brush it off and pick yourself up.

I would suggest that you change up your approach. Making it all about the OW is causing friction. You must change the focus to "US"...MDU and Mr. MDU.

For now, you do need to step back to get your equilibrium back. Take a few days away from your sitch and GAL big time over the weekend to take your mind off the convos with H.

Like Starsky, I don't think it is advisable for you to go dark at this point because of the precarious position you two are in.

In reading the phone convo last night, it came across as an interrogation to me. Not good. From this point and on, you are going have to set aside all questions, your anxieties & insecurities and focus on being light and breezy in each interaction with H.

You want to present yourself in a positive light that presents a stark contrast to the OW.

No more calls to H when you're feeling anxious and insecure for no good comes out of it for it leaves not so positive memories in H's mind. At some point, he's going to throw up his arms in the air and just walk away.

Take a long, hard look at your reactions and FIGURE out a way to get a grip on them. They alone are causing you difficulties. Yes, we all know that you are in a difficult situation with the OW moving into H's company facility ...doesn't mean you have to MAKE IT MORE difficult on top of it with your trigger-fast angry reactions.

At this point, I view it as a minor dust-up. However, I am concerned about your ongoing trigger-fast negative reactions for it will take a serious toll on H and on your M.

For now, you would want to just focus on GALing all weekend with friends, kids, and activities.

[Starsky309]

To be clear, I AM advising that she go dark. Ideally, she would do that right after a more POSITIVE interaction with her husband, but I think the most important thing right now is to limit further damage by emotional outbursts.

mdu's husband is not presenting as a man who is "willing to do whatever it takes," or even necessarily as someone who is committed to reconciling. I would have preferred mdu to stop that interrogation (and I too felt like it was an interrogation) VERY early, and say something like "So here we are, and now with a new wrench. What can we do here, what are your thoughts, H?" -- and bounced it RIGHT back to him, where it belongs.

I think the power equilibrium is all outta whack here, and mdu's GOTTA find a way to get it back.

My opinion only. I have the utmost of respect for Wonka, and when your husband is ready there is no one I would rather have calling the day-to-day advice shots. I just don't think he's ready, mdu.

I'm also wrong sometimes.


Starsky

[mdu]

Thanks Starsky and Wonka.

[Wonka]

I'm also wrong sometimes.

Me too. We sometimes get it wrong here in DBland. Humans are an odd bunch...

[mdu]

FWIW, and I imagine you guys don't trust my judgment very much right now, GAL and positive, light interactions seem to be what re-attract H the most thus far. Although I said I should go dark I am also feeling very concerned that his last memory of me before going dark AND seeing OW is a bad one.

[Wonka]

MDU,

Going dark for now is FOR you. We are concerned that you have not yet reined back your trigger-fast angry responses to H. Until you decide to do so, I'd suggest that you pull back a bit.

Going forward, your interactions will need to be light and breezy with ZERO talk about OW. Can you do this? That is the million-dollar question right there.

[Starsky309]

FWIW, and I imagine you guys don't trust my judgment very much right now, GAL and positive, light interactions seem to be what re-attract H the most thus far. Although I said I should go dark I am also feeling very concerned that his last memory of me before going dark AND seeing OW is a bad one.

Then re-commit to doing your 100% best "Plan A" (and Wonka and Train can help you do that, as already demonstrated) for some set period of time (I would advise no longer than 30-60 days), drop all "OW" confrontations and interrogations of your husband, and only give YOURSELF (not your H!!!) that internal deadline. And THEN go hard-core "Plan B"/pitch-dark after the 60 days if he's still as un-transparent and lost and non-committal as he is now.

I guess it's just different philosophies, mdu. I personally don't believe in trying to "re-attract" a wayward, while they are still in active contact with their affair partner. I believe you do present the best YOU that you can, by GALing and making the self-improvements that you know are needed, but I personally would never waver in my "End all contact with OW/OM and come back and work on the marriage with me, and I think you'll find me ready and willing to discuss and work on all issues, including my own" stance.

That's just me.


Starsky

[Wonka]

Starsky,


We are in general agreement in the approach methods.

but I personally would never waver in my "End all contact with OW/OM and come back and work on the marriage with me, and I think you'll find me ready and willing to discuss and work on all issues, including my own" stance.

How? The OW will be, as MDU says, 20 to 25-feet from H in their small office.

The fact of the matter is that MDU needs to work with that reality in front of them. I am of the opinion that by bringing up OW and getting angry is not helping them at all.

For this to work, MDU must shift the focus from the OW away to her and the M. Make it about "team" Mr. and Mrs. MDU.

Of course, having the OW moving in the facility will stir up some memories and feelings for H which is why he is feeling so conflicted because he has made moves and strides in disengaging from the OW as evidenced by dates with MDU and whatnot. I can bet the Kent Farm that he's probably thinking to himself..."Oh chit! Now this??!! I just don't need OW around here."

This is a new wrinkle for H and MDU. Next week will be a real test for H as well in how he handles it.

[mdu]

"Going forward, your interactions will need to be light and breezy with ZERO talk about OW. Can you do this? That is the million-dollar question right there."

Yup, I agree, it's the million dollar question. I don't even trust myself and am honestly not sure. Perhaps, with tons and tons of support. But as Starsky pointed out, I wasn't able to do it last night and had tons of support. Maybe an A is something I just can't personally handle.

[Wonka]

Then I'd recommend that you research around for an IC that specializes in infidelity and is solution-based therapy. You do need help working through your anger and finding ways to reach at the forgiveness stage.

[mdu]

Ok, thanks, I do have an appointment with another IC next Thursday.

Forgiveness seems so premature to me at this point. I surprised to hear that. I'm not disagreeing, just surprised.

[mdu]

Starsky, to your point about the power equilibrium being off. I feel and have thought a lot about that too. I feel like H is trying to gain some power here (and obviously I'm letting him). I think the truth is he has felt very powerless in our M for many years. If I'm really honest with myself, I controlled quite a lot of things. If I think about it, my emotional outbursts have been a form of control. He's not tolerating it anymore, which in a way is good. But it's almost like he's swinging the pendulum too far the other way. I really think that's why he does not want to give in completely, he sees my requests as more demands/control over him and doesn't want that anymore. And obviously I'm letting him have the upper hand right now, I suppose out of my own fear and guilt.

[Starsky309]

Starsky,


We are in general agreement in the approach methods.

but I personally would never waver in my "End all contact with OW/OM and come back and work on the marriage with me, and I think you'll find me ready and willing to discuss and work on all issues, including my own" stance.

How? The OW will be, as MDU says, 20 to 25-feet from H in their small office.

Then her husband should get a new job, or ask to be transferred to another location. But this needs to be HIS idea (for how he's intending to "clean up his mess,") not yet-another demand from mdu, on that we agree.


Starsky

[Train]

mdu,

I have to be honest. I was on here last night, reading your posts. I have written responses no fewer than half-a-dozen times ... from the first synopsis of your conversation last night ... and have deleted all of them before hitting "submit."

Wonka and Starsky have covered each and every point I've made in those responses, and they've done it eloquently.

I have an opinion, of course. And my opinion is based on what worked for me. But did I question it? Yes. My H, too, seemed to respond best when I was light and flirty. No doubt about it. But it got the point, mdu, when his responses kind of became, well, irrelevant. Why? Because even though he was responding well, he wasn't committing. He was, in actuality, CAKE-EATING. Getting the best of both worlds: her AND me. And I was still left alone, taking care of the kids, wondering whether H was with OW. And to be honest? I've discovered since he's been home that he WAS with her, all while responding to my niceties.

Going dark was the best thing I ever did for me AND my M. I call it a "modified going dark," because with children, going dark isn't really feasible. When H was around to pick up/drop off the kids, I used those moments to give him glimpses of the new-and-improved Train. He saw me dressed, ready to go out. And he started getting really curious. (It's okay, after all, for THEM to move on. But for US, too? Ha. Not so fast!) I did not initiate conversation with him unless it had something to do with the kids.

I think Wonka, Starsky and I are in agreement on one thing: Right now, you need to go as dark as possible. This isn't to get a reaction out of your H. It's to give YOU a chance to recover.

mdu, you simply cannot continue to allow your anxieties and insecurities to trample the progress you've made.

I agree with Starsky: I don't think your H is ready; I read that ALL OVER the conversation you two had last night. I'm not trying to kick you while you're down, mdu, but we MUST identify a pattern so you can address it. You said yourself your H was not in the mood to talk last night. And you pushed through anyway with a million questions he didn't want to answer.

I'll throw him a bone: he answered them. And he answered them, suggesting that he was planning to minimize contact with OW as much as possible in the workplace. We also MUST consider the predicament he's in: he was drawing closer to you, enjoying this new mdu, when - surprise! - OW is in touch and says she's moving her work desk 20' from him. Think about how precarious of a situation that is; I wouldn't want to answer questions about it, either! He probably doesn't have the first clue how he'll handle it; this is all new for him, too. Remember: the WASs have feelings, too. They're scared and full of fear and confusion ... and A LOT of guilt.

But, I agree with Starsky, and this is the point I made in every response I've written and deleted: I don't think your H is ready. He hasn't yet figured out the wreck he's made of your M.

And, mdu, I don't think you're ready, either.

Until or unless you can really get control over your anxiety and outbursts when you're out of control, your M is just not going to work.

And this is the reason that rushing things and trying to get your H home right now is absolutely 100% futile.

I disagreed with the Plan B approach when it was pitched to me. It was just too hardcore for me. And I felt it was SUCH a huge move that it would have to be executed with perfect precision, and I knew that setting up a mediator to handle our children just was not okay with me.

But I also didn't subscribe to a "Plan A" approach after H trampled on my feelings and my heart so much while I made myself available to him.

There is absolutely no reason to "woo" your H back to you if he cannot commit - through words AND ACTIONS - to your M. To put yourself out there like that demonstrates little to no self-respect, in my opinion.

I know we've suggested the more firm stance before, and you've rejected it. I tried to stand beside you on that, because it seemed to work at the time. But here we are. Slightly new twist with the OW moving into town. We need to regroup. And backing off your H is the best first step to do that. I know OW coming in on Monday is going to weigh heavily on you this weekend. It's also weighing heavily on your H. TRY to GAL and stay busy. And away from your phone.

If you need to vent, we'll be here over the weekend. Use us instead of your H. That's why we are here.

[Wonka]

Starsky,

It is not that simple in today's tepid economy. Also I have seen right here when WASes have A's with their work colleagues and ended them while still working in that same workplace thereby restoring their marriages.

Ideally, we would prefer that MDU's H take concrete steps to move way from the OW. Even if that does happen, it will be a while to seek a job that is comparable to his job and pay scale. That process just doesn't happen overnight.

Even if this isn't an option, people have SUCCESSFULLY ended their affairs with their work colleagues and continue working together.

We just need to work with what is in front of us in MDU's sitch.

[Train]

I feel like H is trying to gain some power here (and obviously I'm letting him). I think the truth is he has felt very powerless in our M for many years. If I'm really honest with myself, I controlled quite a lot of things. If I think about it, my emotional outbursts have been a form of control. He's not tolerating it anymore, which in a way is good. But it's almost like he's swinging the pendulum too far the other way. I really think that's why he does not want to give in completely, he sees my requests as more demands/control over him and doesn't want that anymore. And obviously I'm letting him have the upper hand right now, I suppose out of my own fear and guilt.

This, to ME, is the greatest revelation you've had so far, mdu. I think you are DEAD ON here, and - as you know - I've personally felt this way for a while re: your situation.

[Wonka]

MDU,

I wanted to circle back to you about the IC. Here is what I want to leave with you as you think about what you want out of IC.

We are encouraging you here to review your own attitudes, beliefs, actions and feelings to root out all old resentments and fear.

[Starsky309]

Starsky, to your point about the power equilibrium being off. I feel and have thought a lot about that too. I feel like H is trying to gain some power here (and obviously I'm letting him). I think the truth is he has felt very powerless in our M for many years. If I'm really honest with myself, I controlled quite a lot of things. If I think about it, my emotional outbursts have been a form of control. He's not tolerating it anymore, which in a way is good. But it's almost like he's swinging the pendulum too far the other way. I really think that's why he does not want to give in completely, he sees my requests as more demands/control over him and doesn't want that anymore. And obviously I'm letting him have the upper hand right now, I suppose out of my own fear and guilt.

I'm talking about power, not control.

I've never seen a successful reconciliation yet where the power dynamic wasn't such that the formerly-wayward spouse believed that it was up to them to "earn their way back." They may or not EVER express true remorse verbally (many don't, sadly, and some of us need to hear that), but their ACTIONS are such that they are remorseful, and the POWER DYNAMIC is such that they are acting like it is UP TO THEM to clean up the mess.

Sometimes the betrayed spouse already had the upper-hand, power-wise, in the marriage and sometimes they didn't and had to learn it thru DBing and affair-busting, but they got that upper hand and maintained it during the early part of reconciling.

I believe the healthiest marriages are a "50/50" power dynamic, don't get me wrong. Maybe 55/45 or 60/40 in one direction or another, but anything more than that is unhealthy.

HOWEVER . . . after the damage of an affair. . . I do believe that TEMPORARILY, the betrayed spouse needs to assume more power, if they are to be able to articulate what they need to their formerly wayward spouse and if they are to be able to enforce their boundaries, etc. As my wife and I pieced, the relationship power returned to its 50/50 equilibrium slowly between 6 months and 2 years, but there was no mistaking during that time -- that while I forgave her EMOTIONALLY and SPIRITUALLY, there were still things I needed and we were very clear with each other on that.

I'm just not seeing that from you and your husband. Wonka's belief may be different, or it may even be just a "not yet you don't" (see it), but I hope that explains where I'm coming from with my advice.

Starsky

[Starsky309]

I feel like H is trying to gain some power here (and obviously I'm letting him). I think the truth is he has felt very powerless in our M for many years. If I'm really honest with myself, I controlled quite a lot of things. If I think about it, my emotional outbursts have been a form of control. He's not tolerating it anymore, which in a way is good. But it's almost like he's swinging the pendulum too far the other way. I really think that's why he does not want to give in completely, he sees my requests as more demands/control over him and doesn't want that anymore. And obviously I'm letting him have the upper hand right now, I suppose out of my own fear and guilt.

This, to ME, is the greatest revelation you've had so far, mdu. I think you are DEAD ON here, and - as you know - I've personally felt this way for a while re: your situation.

Yeah, I agree -- that's good stuff. Taking my previous post into account (if you even agree with it -- if you don't, that's okay too), you're going to have to find SOME way, mdu, to both allow your H to have a "voice" thru this process while still not relinquishing too much relationship power to him at this raw stage.

Challenging, but it can be done.

[Train]

Ok, I'm just gonna throw this out there:

To me? An approach in mdu's situation is kind of simple.

The days when your PMA was the highest, mdu, was when you were focused on yourself and re-discovering yourself in this "new normal." You were limiting contact with your H and letting him, for the most part, initiate contact unless/until something came up with the kids (which - and here's the good news - is often in your case).

Your outlook seemed sooo much better, and you were better able to communicate with your H. Things were progressing. I happen to believe your H was responding positively to this new-and-improved mdu who wasn't trying to control, who wasn't lashing out and who was starting to take care of herself and have some confidence that she would be fine NO MATTER WHAT.

Can you - one day at a time - take steps to get back there, mdu? Again, a good place to start is taking a break this weekend to recover from last night's blow-out.

There will be plenty of opportunities for you to put your fear and anxieties aside in front of your H; fake it 'til you make it. Again.

Your H, IMO, needs to see two things in order for you guys to reach the optimum "power dynamic" Starsky is talking about in your relationship:

1. The mdu who lets him lead and gives him a little say; the mdu who gives him uninterrupted time to work this out on his own. (This gives HIM power.)
2. The mdu who appears to LOVINGLY but FIRMLY be prepared to move on without him. (This gives YOU power.)

It's honestly the simplest, most straight-forward formula to use. It's also, FWIW, the one I used.

No pursuit, no pressure, no talks about your relationship, no mentioning OW. I'll repeat: NO MENTIONING OW. She's a NOBODY. NOTHING. In your mind, mdu, she does not EXIST. That's how it has to be. Or at least who YOU have to be in front of your H.

When you give the appearance that you're willing to move on with or without H, what does that look like?

To me, it looks like a few weeks ago when you were dressing nicely, wearing new fragrances, reading books, running, gardening, meeting with friends. That's ATTRACTIVE to your H. He was responding to that. You can use the times when you see your H to be flirty and light and breezy, as Wonka would say. We know your H responds to this. So DO IT, absolutely. But don't pursue. Don't initiate. Be that flirty, fun girl when he sees you!

But you just carry on with your life and about your business, acting as if OW is not a concern to you.

That's my .05 (adjusted for inflation) on how to get the pendulum back to the middle.

The fact, as we know it, is that OW is starting work in H's building Monday. I agree it'd be best if your H would take concrete steps to eliminate contact with OW. But *even IF he was ready to commit to that* it's not going to happen overnight, as Wonka says. Even if he finds a new job, we are looking at the simple fact that H and OW will be working together, in the same office, come Monday.

So let's work with what we've got. I, for one, believe OW being in the office - at this point - is kind of irrelevant. I think the aforementioned plan, considering H has cooled off a little and is distancing (either bc of OW ... or because of mdu's outbursts ... or a combination of BOTH), is the only way to go from here.

But that's just me.

[mdu]

"you're going to have to find SOME way, mdu, to both allow your H to have a "voice" thru this process while still not relinquishing too much relationship power to him at this raw stage."

I agree. But really don't know how to do this tactically. It actually makes me think that maybe I should have been more collaborative last night? Communicate in some way "Hey, let's work this out together" rather than "I'm going to interrogate you and you BETTER give me the right answers!" That wasn't at all my intent going into it but somehow that's the way I think it may have came off.

I called H this morning and told him that I was sorry for being pushy last night and I know that's not helpful. His tone really warmed to that and he said 'thank you'. I hope that was the right thing to do, I was motivated because he has said that when I apologize it helps.

And I'll leave it at that, certainly for the rest of the day. I'm headed out to a concert a couple of hours away with some friends in a couple hours. Tomorrow am H and I will have to see each other to exchange kids, I'll keep it light for sure.

Next week is on my mind a lot, of course. I keep thinking I'm 100% screwed. His feelings are going to get all kicked up and I will have no chance. I truly do not know what to do. When he was/is consumed with her he won't LET me in, even if I'm doing all the right things. He doesn't do two well, which is probably good because it's a clear sign where his head is at. But with this latest challenge I think may work against me.

[Starsky309]

It actually makes me think that maybe I should have been more collaborative last night? Communicate in some way "Hey, let's work this out together" rather than "I'm going to interrogate you and you BETTER give me the right answers!" That wasn't at all my intent going into it . . .

Yes, that was EXACTLY what you were advised here, just yesterday afternoon (I wanna say it was by Wonka -- I'd have to look). This really shouldn't have caught you by surprise, mdu.

Look, I know I'm being hard on you, but you simply can't afford to keep making the same mistakes, over and over -- especially when it comes to what is probably your husband's #1 core issue (your emotional reactivity). You've GOT to start applying the advice more consistently. Doing it AWKWARDLY is to be expected (as it won't be natural to you); not DOING IT AT ALL simply isn't an option.


Starsky

[mdu]

Thanks, Train.

I think you're really on track (no pun intended ;)) with your proposed plan. Knowing my H and yes, what we've observed that works. I'd put my money on your for sure!

Having said that, the one thing I'm hesitating on is how the heck I'm going to suddenly pull off "OW is nothing to me" when clearly, he knows darn well from our convo last night she is VERY much on my mind and an issue to me. I mean won't that seem so incredibly disingenuous? I mean how do I now back off from having already declared absolutely no contact with OW? kwim?

Is it the old "I've had an awakening! And suddenly I haven't a care in the world and OW doesn't remotely cross my mind." How do I pull this off?

[mdu]

I'm ok with you being hard on me. I appreciate it.

[mdu]

In the moment the thought crossed my mind that I should be more collaborative. But then I thought 'his mess, he cleans it up' and felt I shouldn't offer any ideas.

I guess how could I be collaborative yet not cleaning up his mess for him, kwim?

(Dang, I really feel like a emotional retard!).

[Train]

My opinion? You just stop talking about her in front of him or to him.

I mean, what's the alternative? You keep mentioning her just to make it look more "genuine"?

As for your boundary, is it not that you will not work on your M as long as OW is in the picture? A boundary isn't: "You can't speak to OW!" That is control. A boundary is: "You can't have her AND me" or "I will not be in an open marriage with a third party." So you can still be breezy with your H as long as you're taking care of you and not letting him have you both. As long as you are emotionally/physically unavailable until he makes a firm commitment, then you're still well within the lines of your boundary with the plan pitched above.

Nothing different than where you were a few weeks ago.

Your H won't believe the changes at first. You have to be consistent. That's your big job.

[Train]

You asking for his ideas is not cleaning up his mess.

You listening to his ideas is not cleaning up his mess.

Being a team member is not cleaning up his mess.

[Starsky309]

My opinion? You just stop talking about her in front of him or to him.

I mean, what's the alternative? You keep mentioning her just to make it look more "genuine"?

As for your boundary, is it not that you will not work on your M as long as OW is in the picture? A boundary isn't: "You can't speak to OW!" That is control. A boundary is: "You can't have her AND me" or "I will not be in an open marriage with a third party." So you can still be breezy with your H as long as you're taking care of you and not letting him have you both. As long as you are emotionally/physically unavailable until he makes a firm commitment, then you're still well within the lines of your boundary with the plan pitched above.

I believe mdu said her boundary was "I cannot feel safe in the marriage so long as you are still in contact with OW." ?

WHATEVER it is, she needs to decide what it is because I've NEVER been clear on just what her core non-negotiable dealbreakers were, and I can guarandamntee you her husband isn't, either!


Starsky

[Train]

Hmmmm. Yeah, mdu. That might be a great exercise for you to tackle - developing that concrete list and posting here, especially considering the new developments.

That list will really help define and place boundaries around YOU and your actions toward H from now forward.

Have fun at the concert today!!!

[mdu]

"I believe mdu said her boundary was "I cannot feel safe in the marriage so long as you are still in contact with OW." ?"

That is correct. And I've put that out there to him. But that was before I found out she was going to be moving and working in his office. Then we got into the whole...can I realistically expect him to quit his job? mess (both on here as well as with him).

[Wonka]

MDU,

Have fun at the concert and remember to be light & breezy with H over the weekend.

[Train]

I don't think saying, "I cannot feel safe until ..." is a boundary. I'd call that a statement. And it's a weak one at that. It doesn't put clearly-defined boundaries around anything.

No wonder there's a little confusion about how to respond/communicate now that OW is moving too close to home!

Starsky, you're my go-to guy for boundary-setting. Seems we may have hit a snag here. "Modifying" a boundary is surely right up there with re-stating a boundary when it comes to weakening boundaries.

So would mdu be "safe" in re-examining that boundary and tweaking it a bit, considering the recent development in the work environment? How could she do that to keep the lines of communication with her H open but also to make clear that she won't indulge in an emotional/physical relationship with him as long as he's "in contact" with OW ... when "contact," as of Monday, is a done-deal???

I'm confused FOR her right now.

[Barrybran]

Being in a different time zones means a LOT of catching up. I have a couple of thoughts:

Boundaries - mdu says she can't feel safe while H is in contact with OW but they will be working in the same office from next week. The question that stands out for me is are you (mdu) prepared to NOT have a relationship with your H while he and OW are working together OR is there something that your husband can do/not do/say/not say/whatever that will help you feel more comfortable with the situation so you may have a chance to reconcile despite his work situation?

Medium - mdu has an obvious problem with outbursts and successfully drew her husband back in by keeping things light and positive. I'm wondering if the vets feel there may be an opportunity to, for the short term, use written communication for the heavier stuff (read, STFU, think, respond; less chance of outbursts) while keeping phone/in-person interactions for the lighter stuff where she can be light, flirty and sexy and leave H with a positive impression? I feel it will give mdu a chance to learn to deal with negative information more productively without risking H seeing her emotions. Of course, long term, those skills would be transferred to phone/in-person interactions.

Also, I may have missed it but I can't recall seeing it anywhere, please please please don't go to H's work. Despite the recent setbacks you have come a long way and you know your triggers.

[mdu]

No, I can not say that I'm definitively ready to not have a relationship with H while he is working with her. However I may very quickly get there on Monday or someday next week when the reality sets in. What is most troubling to me is H's low commitment to the M. If I felt his commitment were high I could see myself being more flexible with how we deal with the work sitch. I am very scared & uncertain how to get his commitment up. I will see him briefly this am to get the kids, curious to see how he acts.

[mdu]

I am thinking through two possible paths to follow in the near term and curious for feedback:

option #1). Essentially Train's plan. Say nothing about OW, keep things light and easy. Spend fun, flirty time with H in an effort to reattract him. Given this will likely be very tough for me to STFU about OW, especially since she will be in the office with him starting next week, I will try this for one week and reassess. For support to help keep me on track I have both a DBing and an IC appointment next week and, of course, I will post here constantly

option #2). Lay a boundary with H regarding OW now being in the office. Tell him that it's too difficult and painful for me and I can't spend time alone with him or together with the kids until he's willing to discuss how we can make this situation more comfortable for me with a marriage counselor. (I'm thinking we probably really need a marriage counselor to help us navigate through any further discussion about OW).

option #3). Combo. Do option #1 for as long as I can stand it then move to option #2.

Thoughts?

[Maybell]

MDU, I'm wondering a few things here.

1. He moved out quite recently. May 1st. But he's already spending a lot of time with you, planning dates, having fun, etc. I can't remember where I read the post, but it semis to me a while back that Sandi wrote about her experience as a WAW, that she initially came back out of a sense of duty, and that it took her quite a long time to feel 100% committed to the M. She was even a little resentful for a while. You seem to have an unusually bold squirrel, but... He's still a squirrel.

2. Your panic about OW is totally reasonable and understandable. If my H's co-worker OW so much as showed up in town for a conference, let alone moved into H's office, I'm not sure I'd be able to keep my s#!t together either. But as you can't do anything about it, it seems like you're going to have to find another way to cope.

3. You have one failed reconciliation after a brief separation under your belt. You haven't been separated that long and you've spent a lot of it reconnecting with H, which I know probably puts you into a very distracting tizzy. How much time have you really spent thinking about what YOU want from a relationship? I realize you're working on your anger issues and everything. But have you thought about what values and needs of yours weren't being met in the M? Because this isn't all about your anger and your H's A. Your anger came from someplace. Do you feel like you understand that piece?

4. If your financial needs are being met and your family is relatively stable for the moment, and you and your H are getting reacquainted, then what is the purpose in rushing that process? If taking your time and getting to a place where you both are mutually enthusiastic about being together increases the probability of not finding yourself in this place again, then why would you want to shortchange that?

I totally understand wanting to be through this stretch of the forest and seeing your family reunited. BELIEVE me, I do. But you are sounding a little controlling in wanting to force all this commitment and transparency on him and it seems to me that even the boldest squirrel would run off if you kept hurling the nuts at him like this. He has been tremendously generous (it sounds from here) in describing ways that he will distance himself from her. You can't keep him lassoed to your side, nor should you want to. That would be no fun, and would deprive you of the thrill of his company when it is given freely.

I'm rooting for you, MDU, and I appreciate your good advice to me for my lunch date yesterday.

[mdu]

Thanks Maybell. Appreciate the input.

"How much time have you really spent thinking about what YOU want from a relationship? I realize you're working on your anger issues and everything. But have you thought about what values and needs of yours weren't being met in the M? Because this isn't all about your anger and your H's A. Your anger came from someplace. Do you feel like you understand that piece?"

I agree, I need to give this more thought. I think IC which I start later this week will help.

"But you are sounding a little controlling in wanting to force all this commitment and transparency on him and it seems to me that even the boldest squirrel would run off if you kept hurling the nuts at him like this. "

Here's where things get really confusing with him. He asked, multiple times, for my transparency plan. He's been wanting clarity from me. But then it seems I give it and things sorta backfire. Or maybe what I need to accept is just because he wants to see it right now doesn't mean he's ready to adhere to it, kwim?

[Maybell]

Yes, I think that second thing about the transparency sounds reasonable.

It may also have been a test to see just how demanding you were going to be.

But I wasn't talking quite so much about the transparency plan as about your previous post asking how you could boost his commitment to the M. I think the answer is, you can't. He has to get there on his own. I see it in your sitch, in Train's, in Thornton's, Ben's, and even in mine, incomplete as it is.

But he is clearly moving in that direction, so I suggest you let him move there at his own pace and stop talking about the marriage as though reconciliation had already happened, rather than being a place you're moving towards.

Does that sound reasonable?

[mdu]

Yes, that's sounds reasonable. So, so tough but perfectly reasonable.

H is already backing way off. It's freaking me out, of course, but I'm trying to keep it together. We had done a few things together with the kids and had a fantastic time and he just sent me a text he does not want to do that anymore because he's afraid it confuses them. I'm not saying that I disagree with him, it's just another painful signal that we're further away than I'd hoped. Also, I can't help but fear that he's backing away because of OW and the newfound potential for that relationship now that she will be so close. I keep thinking "he's going to see what happens with her next week and see if there's still potential for them"

[Maybell]

I'm sorry that's where you're at but I don't think it's totally bleak.

Also, thinking all this about his motives related to OW is not constructive. It's entirely possible that he wants to return to the family but doesn't trust himself around her. There are about a million other possibilities that could explain the messages he's sending. This is why mind-reading is so destructive.

I want to repeat how new your sitch is. It's only four months since BD! You still have a lot of roller coaster ride left. I've just passed the one year mark since BD, eighteen months since the beginning of my H's affair which only just ended apparently a couple of weeks ago. And he's only seen her in person four times.

Your H is going to go through this. It is going to stink. Do not make my mistake and try to keep him too close. Give him enough slack to find out what this would really be like. As long as no one is pursuing a divorce and your children and home are stable you have the gift of time. If those things change it will be clearer what your course of action should be. For now, your course of action is to loosen the rope and take care of yourself.

Labug told me recently that when her H went haywire she just removed him from her personal equation and let him "go on walkabout." That sounds like a good path for you, too. I have heard a lot about your anxieties but much less what kind of person you are, and who you want to be. This is an outstanding time to search that out. Your sitch is NEW. I didn't realize how new till today. Your story sounds really familiar. Don't make the mistakes I did. This could be really good for you.

[Starsky309]

4. If your financial needs are being met and your family is relatively stable for the moment, and you and your H are getting reacquainted, then what is the purpose in rushing that process? If taking your time and getting to a place where you both are mutually enthusiastic about being together increases the probability of not finding yourself in this place again, then why would you want to shortchange that?

.

I don't see MDU "rushing the process" so much as I see her trying to PROTECT and NURTURE the process, and rightfully so. She has every right to be concerned about new, daily, close-quarters contact between her husband and the OW at this early stage in their reconciliation. Even purely PHYSIOLOGICALLY, it's a problem, as the contact is going to cause her husband's brain endorphins to start juicing again.

This is one area I do NOT see this as just " ol' mdu, being all emotional." There is a ton of excellent infidelity research and experience that makes it very wise to be so strongly against allowing the pyromaniac to be working daily amongst the matches and the kerosene.


Starsky

[Maybell]

I don't see her as just being overly emotional. I just think she can't control this. She's done what she can and needs to relinquish the idea she can control -- watch and see what choices her H makes. They are certainly in a treacherous place. He did the damage while OW was away, so proximity isn't the only factor in play.

But I defer, Starsky, I'm in the forest and you can see the trees.

[Wonka]

MDU,

Remember "act as if"...act like you and H are reconciling.

I think your transparency plan made a lot of sense BEFORE you received the news that the OW was moving to the office. Then it will have to be modified to suit the reality on the ground: minimize contact at the office. I mean, it is unavoidable that there will be work meetings or work groups.

Of course, it will stir up feelings in H and he is correct in that he's not sure how he'll react to having OW in the office. Let him process this news and it will take time for this to settle down.

For this reason, I would give H some room to figure this out himself and allow him to come up with solutions. Again, as I said before, you don't want to have H on a too short leash...that is a very fast way to build up resentment in him because he'll perceive it as control and he'll bolt.

option #1). Essentially Train's plan. Say nothing about OW, keep things light and easy. Spend fun, flirty time with H in an effort to reattract him. Given this will likely be very tough for me to STFU about OW, especially since she will be in the office with him starting next week, I will try this for one week and reassess. For support to help keep me on track I have both a DBing and an IC appointment next week and, of course, I will post here constantly

This is a good plan and it has been working all along.

It is very CRITICAL that you maintain control of your emotions otherwise it'll all come flooding out of your mouth inappropriately and it'll set you back. [Notice that I did not say suppress or deny your emotions for they are there.] You want H to feel COMFORTABLE around you knowing that you'll not go off on him at every event, phone call, or other encounter. That's a big, total turn-off in even good marriages.

No more interrogations! Tattoo that in your brain, MDU.

I am encouraged that you're seeking another IC next week and I do sincerely hope she/he is a solutions-based therapist who can assist you in understanding and managing your anger.

Hang in there! This shall pass soon.

[Wonka]

We do encourage you to cultivate forgiveness, compassion and good will toward H in your interactions with him.

[mdu]

I'm with all of you that I just need to back off and let this play out. It seems there's nothing more I can do. Ultimatums do not work with H and I'm 1000% sure would create a ton of resentment (as if he doesn't have enough towards me already) so I don't think I can realistically threaten D if he does not change jobs. Not to mention, I'm just not at that place yet where I'd follow through.

I saw H this morning when he dropped off the kids and I think I was able to maintain a convincing friendly detachment. He seemed to linger a bit and chatted some. So at least I feel good that what was likely our last interaction before he sees OW at work on Monday was a positive one. I think for now I will not contact him again until he reaches out to me. Just back way up and let him figure this out and hopefully even make him wonder a tad where MY head might be at.

I also agree it's a good time for me to regroup and reground myself. I have noticed that whenever H starts moving toward me I get so fixated on him that I start slipping on GAL. I need to get back on it and get back on rediscovering me. I definitely keep losing myself in the relationship, probably have been for years, need to fix that.

[Train]

Smart girl.

Now stick to that plan.

[mdu]

My sister in law just updated her facebook cover photo to a big family picture including me, H and our kids. My stepson's fiancé just sent me a picture of her wedding invitations (wedding is in earl October). Two more very painful reminders of our very broken family. Unfortunately not only was I convinced we were firmly on the reconciliation path I think a lot of others did too. I really think we were until this latest development with OW moving. I keep thinking what horrible, horrible timing but maybe it's for the best. I'd rather things completely implode now than 6mos-1 year from now when he could be home and things would be even worse for the kids if he left again.

I have not reached out to H since yesterday morning and really have zero desire to. It continues to amaze me what a mess he has created with this OW. I updated a couple of friends on this latest development and they, of course, think I should just leave him. I'm not at that point yet but am feeling a tiny bit of ambivalence creeping into me.

I just don't see how things can work out under the current circumstance. It took H months for his feelings for OW to die down enough for him to start to have room to start feeling for me again. Now they're going to get all kicked up again and there won't be a way for them to get away from each other so they can die, so they'll keep getting kicked up. The only hope I think I have is if somehow her presence turns him off. That maybe having her right in his office will kill the fantasy, especially if she starts applying any kind of pressure. Even though she may have eliminated the distance barrier to their relationship the fact that they work for the same company is still a barrier for anything long term. While she doesn't report in to him because he is so high level their relationship would likely still be considered unethical. I imagine one of them would have to leave the company if they were seriously interested in trying to pursue a long term future.

I actually feel sort of bad for H. As I write all of this I can imagine the stress and anxiety he must feel over her coming. Of course, he also maybe terribly excited about it, thinking that she's doing it for him and feeling extremely flattered. But my gut says he's probably overwhelmed and freaked and not in a good way. Either way, it just becomes clearer and clearer that backing off and giving him space is the way to go. Ideally, if I talk to him, I would be so detached I could empathize with how stressful this must be for him. I think that would be a good stretch goal for me, lol!

Interestingly, at the moment, I feel pretty calm about the whole thing. 'Let it Be' is now my theme song :-)

[mdu]

More journaling...

I know I should probably let go of expectations but I can't help but imagine how this might play out. One thing about H is he's very expressive, not verbally but in his demeanor. When I'm re-attracting him it's very easy to tell. When he's pulling away it's very easy to tell too. It's a very attractive characteristic when he's into you but very painful when he's rejecting. I keep imagining that OW likely has not seen this side of him. If he decides that he is truly going to try to push her out she maybe quite shocked and hurt by his demeanor towards her. I'm sure she thinks she really knows him inside and out but I can guarantee she so does not. On the other hand, if he has a warm demeanor towards her no doubt that will fan the flames for both of them.

I really think he would like to do the right thing and reject her but I'm not confident he is able. Obviously, he let himself do the wrong thing by getting involved in the first place. But now it's out in the open (his parents and older son know he had an A) and I really think he does not want to continue to demonstrate such a destructive, hurtful choice, especially to his older son who is getting married soon.

These next few weeks are going to be so telling. I could see things coming to a head quickly, i.e., if he is rejecting towards her and she gets upset and/or tries to put pressure on him I think that could really turn him off. On the other hand, if he continues to pull away from me that will be very telling as well. I think if he wants to be with her he will likely move to divorce rather quickly so he can try to save some moral ground with his family and especially older son. Of course another possibility is she may not be interested in him at all any more, although it's a little hard to imagine that her motives for coming here have zero to do with him.

There are so many possibilities, I know I shouldn't speculate, it will just make me bananas. Hopefully dumping it all here will enable me to let it go somewhat. We will have to see each other next Saturday for a kid exchange, I think that's good so I have a chance to get a vibe from him in person.

[mdu]

Already feeling like the day is a struggle to get through. Not feeling anxious, sad more than anything. Sad that things are in such a horrible, horrible place. And extremely disappointed in myself for my contributions. I know I need to forgive myself and just try to do right going forward.

H may seriously pick this OW over me. It's a very real threat. It makes me feel like such a loser.

My mantra right now is "No pressure, no pressure, no pressure." I cannot put ANY pressure on H. I am 1000% confident that will push him right into OW's arms. I have a sense that was attractive about her/their relationship --- that it was super easy, fun and she didn't pressure him for more in any way. But more importantly, if I pressure him he *might* pick me but I would always wonder if he truly wanted me or just caved.

I flip flop all around. I feel so badly about myself but then I get angry at him for what he did. Then I get calm and realize that despite all my flaws he has many too and he really does not deserve any of my thoughts or attention right now. He needs to figure this out and do some earning back into the M.

I think the right place for my mindset to be is somewhere meddling this all. Acknowledge that I have done wrong, work like heck to change that. But also strong in my resolve that H needs to fix this mess to my satisfaction and I shouldn't settle for less just to have him back. He needs to recognize his contributions and do the same work I am trying to do.

Today, I must fight any thoughts about H or OW and just focus on myself and my kids. So off I go, not letting myself get back on the BB and ruminate about this until late afternoon (~ 6 hours). Little goals ;-)

[mdu]

Tough, tough afternoon. It's amazing how much my mood goes up and down in just one day. Is that normal?

H has pulled way, way back. Hasn't texted me all day and nothing yesterday either. I'm not contacting him. Feeling very much like the ball is in his court. I keep thinking that he is going to test things out with OW this week. Yuck, makes me so sick, sad and heartbroken. I know I shouldn't speculate but how can I not? Also keep feeling like this situation is quite hopeless. If we saw each other I feel like I would have a fighting chance. I know he's still attracted to me and as long as I keep things light I know he enjoys our interactions. But we actually don't have much opportunity for this anymore, the kids don't have any more activities right now which brought us together a lot previously but not now.

I just can't get over how dramatically things have turned for the worse. I can't believe that OW has actually moved and will be working in his office. It's unbelievable how far things have gone. I'm just so utterly shocked. It seems so brazen of her no matter how you look at it.

I keep thinking about him saying that he doesn't think we should hang out with the kids because he's afraid it will confuse them. Two weeks ago we spent a full day (his birthday) all together and it was a non-issue. Now suddenly it's an issue...hmm

[Barrybran]

Mdu, I understand that you're confused, frustrated and hurt. You've come so far and you're back to square one. Reading these last few posts I feel as though you've forgotten the DB principles and what brought you to that good place. I feel as though you're dwelling on the negative and mindreading like crazy instead of getting back on the PMA horse and giving yourself a fighting chance.

You screwed up, plain and simple. There's no hiding it. You know it, your H knows it, we know it. It's not the end of your story. You KNOW what you did to attract your husband so you KNOW what you need to do to re-attract him. Sure, it will be more difficult; OW is permanently in the picture and your H will trust you even less after these recent outbursts. You can do it though.

As the others have said, OW is nothing to you. You're allowed to have feelings and you're wise enough to know how to control your thoughts and actions. You have a deep understanding by now that focusing on yourself brings positivity to your world.

Let's get back on that horse. Think of all the things that make you worthy to be with. Also, understand how your husband feels when you react the way you do. Control what you can control and let go of what you can not. You know this stuff. You know your husband. You've got this, mdu.

[mdu]

Barrybran, thank you so much for you post. I can't begin to tell you how helpful the feedback is and how very much I appreciate you and each and every person here who continues to read my story and try to help me along.

Here's one thing that I keep stumbling on when reflecting upon the latest outburst with H. The thing is, the conversation went badly from the getgo because he was not remotely interested in dealing with this latest challenge. He was DEAD silent on the phone and then when I tried to put it back on him by asking if he had any thoughts around how to help me feel safe he basically gave me nothing, just: well, I'll go to work and that's that. I was totally unprepared for ZERO solutions from him. I was so anticipating this conversation and to get nothing from him when we had been connecting so much, it was really a big letdown. Then I started the questioning because I thought somehow that would draw things out. As I said, he's a horrible communicator. I thought I just need to somehow get it out of him. But that didn't go well either.

I guess my point is that I was really, really trying to do the right things. But somehow it still all went wrong. I'm not trying to make excuses but I just don't know how to deal with him, seriously. In some ways I'm a little baffled how I would handle the situation differently. I guess my only option would have been to get off the phone as soon as he had no solutions to offer? I honestly don't know and it worries me. I honestly don't have this level of challenge around communication with anyone else in my life.

[Oxford1]

Barrybran, thank you so much for you post. I can't begin to tell you how helpful the feedback is and how very much I appreciate you and each and every person here who continues to read my story and try to help me along.

Here's one thing that I keep stumbling on when reflecting upon the latest outburst with H. The thing is, the conversation went badly from the getgo because he was not remotely interested in dealing with this latest challenge. He was DEAD silent on the phone and then when I tried to put it back on him by asking if he had any thoughts around how to help me feel safe he basically gave me nothing, just: well, I'll go to work and that's that. I was totally unprepared for ZERO solutions from him. I was so anticipating this conversation and to get nothing from him when we had been connecting so much, it was really a big letdown. Then I started the questioning because I thought somehow that would draw things out. As I said, he's a horrible communicator. I thought I just need to somehow get it out of him. But that didn't go well either.

I guess my point is that I was really, really trying to do the right things. But somehow it still all went wrong. I'm not trying to make excuses but I just don't know how to deal with him, seriously. In some ways I'm a little baffled how I would handle the situation differently. I guess my only option would have been to get off the phone as soon as he had no solutions to offer? I honestly don't know and it worries me. I honestly don't have this level of challenge around communication with anyone else in my life.

mdu,
Sorry to see that you are almost back to square one. I am glad you admitted you slipped backwards with the way you have been communicating with your H. I too do that with my WW.
I sat down and figured out when I do it..
1) when I get mixed messages from supporters on what to do (not from DB Forum, its been great)
2)when I start to feel connected to my WW again and she does something to push me back
3)when OM is in town and she is hanging with him (As a friend...

What I realized today is that sometimes our mouths take the negativity off of the OP and put it right on us.
For example today my ww was rushing me when we were at the gym (yes we live together), I said don't rush me for "him", she said I just don't want there to be an altercation with him (oh great she and he have altercations)
So I like an IDEEOOT said "Boy he has you on a really short leash doesn't he? She responded (here is where her frustration with him became focused on me) Oh yeah not as short as the one you had on me for 30 years...

Get my point. Sometimes its best not to say anything and let them wallow in their own mud!

Good Luck
Ox

[Barrybran]

I was totally unprepared for ZERO solutions from him. I was so anticipating this conversation and to get nothing from him when we had been connecting so much, it was really a big letdown.

^This is an expectation and you know the power of those by now.

Then I started the questioning because I thought somehow that would draw things out. As I said, he's a horrible communicator. I thought I just need to somehow get it out of him. But that didn't go well either.

Your situation is a little different because your husband has responded to a little coaxing. You went beyond "a little coaxing" though, didn't you? Have you read the squirrel analogy? Your outbursts are like trying to grab the squirrel as it goes to eat.

I guess my only option would have been to get off the phone as soon as he had no solutions to offer?

Exactly! A short, pointless conversation is better than one where you fly off the handle at him. It's a lot easier to move forward from neutral territory than it is to do so from negative territory. If you feel yourself losing control, get out of that situation pronto. You can always go back to it later.

[mdu]

Thanks again, very helpful stuff.

[Train]

Also keep in mind, mdu, that while your attitudes/behaviors/positive changes may do some things to re-attract your H, *he* is the one who cheated and, therefore, he is the who should be pursuing YOU ... and WILL pursue you ... when he's ready.

No matter how bad of a communicator he is, he is a grown man who won you over once before. He knows how to do it again.

Stay strong. And stay focused on mdu and your changes.

[Wonka]

MDU,

What would really help is to try and stop your stinkin' thinkin'. It isn't doing anyone any favors at all. Especially you. The OW isn't worth rent-free in your head space at all!
PPPssssswaw! Not even worth it.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Same with restoring your M. It will be filled with fits and starts. I am not at all surprised at your H's reaction and of course he isn't going all into solution-mode when he is JUST processing the fact that the OW is moving to his office.

If it were me, I'd be shocked too if my own OW had moved to my office. Believe me, I've had my own XOW.

This is a very new wrinkle and it will take some time for you two work through this separately and together. Demanding answers and solutions RIGHT NOW isn't helping the situation at all. As anyone who's reconciled successfully knows, it is filled with fits and starts.

Hey, want a discount on Wonka's Bobcat of patience?! I've got loads of 'em myself.

[mdu]

Thx! U guys r the best. Truly don't know how I would survive without this BB.

[mdu]

I don't know about all of this. H has pulled way back. He almost always texts me 'good morning, have a good day', not today. As I mentioned, he didn't text me at all Saturday or Sunday, except one text Sunday night regarding a kid logistic item.

I'm not sure how much more of this I can take. He's obviously not fully committed to me and how am I supposed to take OW in the office with him right now? It's insane.

I looked back at my posts over the last 2 months and H has been saying that he wants to reconcile pretty much from the getgo. But it's the same pattern over and over where whenever it comes down to brass tacks he balks.

At a minimum I feel he should be reaching out to me --- in some way comforting me that he's still with ME even with OW in such close proximity. I am frankly appalled that he's just leaving me to deal with this on my own --- yet says he wants to reconcile? Just doesn't add up at all. Why does he keep saying that he wants to reconcile but then won't show it? Is this normal? Doesn't seem normal at all. Seems like someone who doesn't really know what he wants and keeps stringing me along as his 'Plan B'.

[catperson]

He will not reach out to you as long as OW is in the picture. Any reaching out he does do will be fake and only to get a certain response from you that makes HIM feel good.

So why go there? As long as he has her, he doesn't 'get' you.

[unbidden]

When I read your last message, I notice one major thing. It's all about you -- what you feel or want your H to do and your complaints about what he is doing to you or not doing. I know this is very hard and I know that the situation is very unfair. But, if you really want to get anywhere in your sitch right now, I believe that you have to drop this attitude for awhile. Think about what constructive steps you can take towards making the interactions between you and your H ones that he remembers sweetly and will want to reconnect with. Right now, I think that your actions are driving him further away. Draw him closer now. Be a W only a fool would leave. . .

[mdu]

Thx unbidden. I appreciate ur offering there counterbalance point of view

[unbidden]

I get it, he should be making you feel more secure and working harder on the marriage. He should be. But right now he isn't. So the best thing to do, IMO, is to deal with that reality and draw him back in.

[Maybell]

MDU, I'm sorry this is happening. I really, really am.

I know Starsky gave me a hard time about my observations to you before. But I think I had sound reasons for making them.

Did you ever see your H going through withdrawal from the OW? If not, he wasn't there yet. He may have wanted to be, but he wasn't. Starsky was right that there is a physiological response to OW. Your H may want to control it but he hasn't yet gone through withdrawal. I doubt it would have mattered even if she moved back. Eventually he would have found a reason to interact with her and you'd be where you are now. I don't *know* this to be true but I believe it. H and I would be cooking along in MC making progress, and just the knowledge of an impending trip would make him draw way back. Physically, on the MC's couch, so much that the MC would comment on it.

Some things have their own timeline. We must endure in the face of uncertainty. (See me smacking myself with a 2x4 as I say this to you). This is a great time to quit worrying about his commitment to you and for you to revisit who you want to be -- not only in interpersonal relationships, but in your goals and your future as well. I think you'll be much happier if you can liberate yourself from the urgency of reconciling and take the gift of time as a gift that can be used for you as well as for him.

I don't want to sound unsympathetic because I'm truly not. But you sound like you're in the place I was eight months ago and I know what I wish I had done differently. I'm just trying to share my hindsight with you. But I hope your experience is MUCH better than mine.

Hugs to you!

[mdu]

Thx Maybell. I really, really appreciate your posting (as well as unbidden). I really need to hear this counter point of view so I can make wise decisions at this very precarious time.

There is a good chance that H went through withdrawals initially. As a matter of fact, that may be a big reason why our initial reconciliation went sour. He was surly and moody and not at all ready to connect with me. I thought he was still involved with OW but he has consistently denied it and said that he was trying to get over her; so it's entirely possible that it was withdrawals. I so couldn't take the uncertainty and how he was acting that I asked him to leave and our MC at the time agreed. That was how we separated most recently. I sometimes look back and wonder if that was the right thing, if I'd just been better able to detach and tolerate his moods if he'd still be in the house now. Unfortunately I don't think I was up to the task.

So, I am very cognizant of not making any rash decisions. I do fear that he may simply need some time to sort this out and I'm moving too quickly (again).

But it's awful, truly. My stomach has been in knots all day.

Also, when I read all my prior posts I realized that the #1 thing that pulled him back to me was MY reaching out to HIM. I know everyone says he should pursue but he really, really warmed and things really started to turn after we separated and I started calling him just to chat. Then he started asking me to lunch, then I asked him to dinner and he was literally over the moon.

So if I really want to try to draw him back in, I wonder if I should pursue again. It seems so WRONG under the current circumstance, yet it's what worked previously. And I actually happen to have a big development at work I could share.

[Train]

I have to disagree that if there's no "withdrawal period" then the spouse isn't ready. My H never went through a withdrawal. He said he got sick of how clingy and needy OW was *while he was still seeing her*. Kicking her to the curb, he recounts, was a relief.

Perhaps if the A is *mostly emotional* then there's a "withdrawal period." But not necessarily when it's mostly a PA.

My point is: not all As look alike.

mdu, I'm happy to see you thinking here ... as opposed to out loud in front of your H. This is a safe place on which you can bounce your deepest insecurities and fears ... and hopes and desires. That's why we are here.

I'm also glad to see you paying attention to the patterns in your sitch.

I'm sure today is super difficult. But know you're doing the right thing by giving your H space to sort this out.

And here's the thing: you get to choose which path YOU will take. When your H is in touch again, you can choose to be light and breezy. Or, you can choose to say: "Hmmm. A lot has changed recently. I'm not sure HOW I feel about that anymore..."

[Wonka]

MDU,

So if I really want to try to draw him back in, I wonder if I should pursue again. It seems so WRONG under the current circumstance, yet it's what worked previously. And I actually happen to have a big development at work I could share.

We have said no contact because it is FOR YOUR OWN protection because you were not able to control your mouth and emotions. If you are able to talk with H on the phone tonight and commiserate with him on handling his emotions with the OW in the office today, fine.

If you can't STFU and listen, then I'd suggest that you wait 24-72 hours until you are ABLE to support H.

Make sense?

[Train]

Just read your other post.

No. No. No. Please sit back, mdu. Please sit back and give him space for a day or 10.

This OW-at-work thing is sooooo new. Your H was drawn back to your subtle pursuit when OW was presumably not working 20 feet from him. This throws a wrench in everything right this very minute.

I would strongly suggest that you absolutely do not contact him today. It would be wayyyyyy too obvious to him. That feels like pressure. Stay the course!

[Wonka]

And here's the thing: you get to choose which path YOU will take. When your H is in touch again, you can choose to be light and breezy. Or, you can choose to say: "Hmmm. A lot has changed recently. I'm not sure HOW I feel about that anymore..."

I would suggest that you, MDU, be the contrast and show H the inner strength that is hidden deep inside that muck of fear & insecurity.

At this point, I would not even bring up those feelings to H. You want H to feel comfortable confiding in YOU and not shut down. At this critical juncture, H needs to feel that he has YOU in his corner...not the opposite corner fighting him like Muhammad Ali.

Yeah, I'm with Train on pulling back for a few days and allow H space to process seeing the OW at the office today.

[mdu]

"If you can't STFU and listen, then I'd suggest that you wait 24-72 hours until you are ABLE to support H."

I agree. Although I'm pretty certain that H would not bring up OW if I were to call him, other than maybe to state the facts (i.e., she's in the office right now). I just don't think he would. I think the way he would honestly share his feelings is if he and I were spending time in a casual environment and he felt relaxed and safe enough with me that it came up spontaneously. Otherwise, while he might answer direct questions if I ask, it wouldn't really be a heartfelt sharing/supporting kind of conversation, kwim?

[Maybell]

Whatever you end up doing I wish you peace and success in your path. I'll be following your thread.

All will be well, and will be well, and all manner of things will be well.

[unbidden]

Yes, this is hard and unsettling for sure. We are with you and support you.

[mdu]

Thx everyone. Have a DB coaching appointment tomorrow. Will be very curious what her perspective is.

[unbidden]

I used Chuck. He was a great coach, heard great things about many of the others too. Good idea