confrontation methods?

[pbetra]

Hi everyone,

hope that you are progressing well on all your journeys whatever they are.

I have been busy reading Cadet's homework assignments as advised. Recently, I find myself tearful quite frequently. My PMA has been weakening a bit recently.

I would like my h to experience the world 'out there'. As long as he is with me, he takes a lot for granted and continues with his masked hatred . The other day his response was a grunt before he quickly corrected it into a false deceitful smile & pleasing tone. His poker face & acting skills are amazing. He is unaware of the fact that I have heard the nasty, crude obscenities directed toward me when in washroom - before he comes out with a pleasant almost zen like demeanor.

He is here because he has no choice. $$ I think this makes it worse. He hates to need me. He can also rationalize this - For years I was homemaker so he probably thinks he is entitled anyway, hence the blatent using.

It's a jeckyll hyde (can't remem sp.) thing - often the pleasant look as soon as I appear. I entered a room unaware that he was there. He did not hear me at first. The expression on his face was intense until he heard me - changing in a sec. & with all 'the pleasantries' because he needs a small loan until one of his small checks come in.

It is clear why he is here.
1 - He doesn't have enough to support himself independently and
2 - he hasn't been lucky finding that 'fine young 25 yr old thing' he's looking for. I know a date feel through sometime ago.
It's funny, now, I actually WANT him to experience his true reality re others.

My good nature, natural patience & sense of understanding has been very much taken for granted. I was able to look past a lot! (I realize now that this is due to my own issues which I am trying to identify and work on. What I deem 'normal' isn't always normal - & how to differentiate between the two, that fine line (!) is a skill I have to develop). Point is he's been trying to pick up OW at these bars and hasn't been able to start a relationship. I realize that I indirectly enable all because he isn't out there long enough - here is always a buffer when things don't work out. He needs COLD hard reality - he is not as easy to be with as he assumes!! I am practically like a buddha - he told his friends before that "im so cool, not heated like so many women". I have had so much 'drama' in my life that I chose my battles carefully & disregard much, not seeing them as worth the additional stress. This can be taken advantage of/taken for granted sometimes.

Getting back though - this is so hard. I have been trying for my child, who is not doing well at all (more info. link below, mlc rut) I have no problem trying to support someone emotionally, mentally, financially etc .. being there FOREVER IF they are sincere with me. Even a sincere 'smart ass', I could 'put up' with a little if they liked me LOL, but you got to like/love me ... I am not prepared to do this for someone who projects all the casualites of their life unto me and hates me for it and is lucky enough to get a buffer through me, when things are not working out for them. I am just being used while he tries to get his way worked out.

I am trying to work n an exit strat. Am crying as I look at my child sleeping beside me as I type. This i s awful
Have been reading Cadet's and haven't come across confrontation appproaches (boy it took me long to get to the point!! ) Confrontation was part of a response I came across, the other was 'sitting' it out w/mlcer (not advised) and i cannot recall the third. I do have it saved with all other info. to collate when my homework is complete, but did not think i would need it before then!! (If i locate it, will post).

For those who did confront your mlcer -
- how did you approach?
- what did you do?
- what did you bring up?

- & curious, how did they react?


re: link mentioned above, mlc rut
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2462460&page=1

Thx. for any info., & sincerely wish you all well with your journeys.

[Cadet]

First of all try to stick to one thread until you get to 100 posts, it will be less confusing in the future and easier to follow along with what you have been told and the details of your sich.

As far as confrontation, the only thing you can do is to have a boundary and enforce your boundary.
You can try to confront however it is also very likely that they wont listen or try follow anything that you say.
The ultimate boundary is divorce.

You can only control YOU, you cant make him do anything, you can change the way you react to what he does and hope that he changes.

However remember - NO EXPECTATIONS.

Hope that helps.

[pbetra]

Thanks Cadet for all the info.

sorry about the 'double post'. I thought that confrontation may have been a separate theme (?) & should not be 'buried' under multiple posts, in the event that someone needed that specific information (as I felt I did). will not in future ...

I have no intention of making h do anything, I have no hope re: him ... absolutely no expectations re our relationship. H needs to do what he needs to do - unfortunatley luck/$ isn't on his side, & impacting on me as 'the build up' continues. I have read many of your posts & others as I continue to do my homework. I know h won't listen. He has controlling mother, anything I do will be perceived as such. I am trying to control ME which is why I am at this junction.

You have made me think about the kind of boundaries I have to make.
Right now I want him away somehow - he makes me sick. I put a lot into the last few months. I am deeply hurt - now I feel the need for SPACE from him. I am becoming more anxious and depression is setting in. Can't think straight w/ him, feel freer when he steps out.

I will take a break -
> I will try to meditate.
> I will think about distance vs going dark
and maybe after the two ...
> I may come up with a boundry or two that can actually work in my sitch.

Thanks again for getting back as always. p

[juliegayle]

Pbetra

Just wanted to offer some support. I know it can be very difficult living in the same space with a spouse who is mean, angry and clearly doesn't want to be there. I am actually happy on the nights my h sees OW because I know I will have some peace.

Things are more civil now but up until about a month ago I felt how you described. I did start meditating and it helped. Also really working on detaching and not taking anything he said or did personally. It is hard but jeep working on it.

What boundaries I have set are for me. For example he can not talk to me in a disrespectful way. I cannot make him do that but I can walk away and not listen when he starts. The other is I will not engage if he has been drinking.

Good luck. Keep reading and posting hete. It will help keep you sane.

[ForeverYoung]

In my opinion there is no "confrontation" unless you are ready to start the D process. Why? Because like Cadet says, he won't listen. So, anytime you do confront, without any serious follow up consequences, you lose a little bit of power and credibility.

Better to accept what is, (remind yourself it won't always be that way) and take steps to make it work for you. Remember, a true MLC usually takes YEARS to play out. Having said that, I believe most will come out better people in the end, and will realize who was there for them while they were off and running.

The real question is will you still care or be there when this happens. Your choice, and you don't have to decide today.

[pbetra]

Pbetra

Just wanted to offer some support. I know it can be very difficult living in the same space with a spouse who is mean, angry and clearly doesn't want to be there. I am actually happy on the nights my h sees OW because I know I will have some peace.

Thanks juliegayle for your post. Today must be a low day for me
I didn't get much sleep well last night either. My part time carer did not show up (again). I need meds & food and a long list of things to do. Have to collect child at camp after ... laundry or my God.

I suppose the lack of sleep & the 'brave front' where my actions do not match my hurt feelings for so long is a bit much right now. And you know the rule "never let them see you cry" ...

You are right re: sharing space, I can relate to your feeling peace when your H is not there. I would love for him to find someone! He really needs it - the staring at young women, commenting as though I am not even there Your reminder re: detach shows me I need more work in that area. I think GAL will help if I can manage to shorten my to do list here at home some more (?!) OR maybe more sleep !!!LOL

I will also apply your boundaries to my sitch esp. >> can not talk to me in a disrespectful way. << This is typically abusive & condescending as though I am a child. Thx again, it was good to read of your sitch & where you are at the moment. Very encouraging
p.

[pbetra]

Better to accept what is, (remind yourself it won't always be that way) and take steps to make it work for you. Remember, a true MLC usually takes YEARS to play out. Having said that, I believe most will come out better people in the end, and will realize who was there for them while they were off and running.

The real question is will you still care or be there when this happens. Your choice, and you don't have to decide today.

ForeverYoung, hi,
I understand what you mean
re: >> anytime you do confront, without any serious follow up consequences, you lose a little bit of power and credibility <<

I think that part of the frustration for me (apart from immediate reply above to juliegayle) is that I began to doubt if he could change?!! And if any of this was worth it. I also have to manage my many responsibilities for which I feel stretched. With MLC, I no longer have help in other areas. I do EVERYTHING with very little time for myself.

I remembered hearing that some people are more phychologically minded than others. I think that those mlcers are more likely to make it through the tunnel (not that others can't - it probably helps) H's thinking is very 'b&w' & he's not overly sensitive (people like him are the reason coaching companies make LOTS of $$ with Sensitivity 101 sessions/courses. I'm not kidding!!). H has always been against any type of therapy (said something like "strangers shouldn't be exposed to other people's business"). This was the response years ago when I felt that a professional outside of 'our emotional sphere' could be objective to give us both direction, in the interest of building the relationship. Profanity followed my suggestion.

I am glad that I came here though. My fatigue must be affecting my peception & with that doubt creeps in. It hasn't been a year after all - & your post info. quoted above will benefit my kid anyway, since I must not act/think in haste. thanks again, p.

ps: found the post that started me thinking about confrontation - will include below 'fyi'

[pbetra]

please see related post / threads for complete information on subject if desired

Reference to Confrontation - & Consequences

Re: All Sermons on ONE thread-Lessons and ALL. This is concerning CYCLES /
(http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96158&page=1)

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------
IS THE ONLY "SOLID" OPTION IN A OW-CYCLE AN ULTIMATUM -
or ARE THERE OTHER OPTIONS LBS HAS TO PREVENT WAS/'caker' "FROM GETTING AWAY WITH"(NO CONSEQUENCES) THIS BEHAVIOR ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
There are several possibilities the LBS can use, and the only three options are:

1. Ultimatum, which in the case of MLC won't work unless the MLC'er is READY to give OW up, and is attempting to CAKE-EAT.

2. Going dark without saying a word, but the WAS won't "get it" so a confrontation IN THE CASE OF OW is usually necessary BEFORE going dark.

3. Just tolerating the situation, and going on endlessly for years, allowing the cycle to continue - had to throw that one in-it is the LEAST desireable option, but one that is usually chosen because fear dictates the actions of the LBS.

I, quite honestly, don't see any OTHER ways of handling this type of situation WITHOUT a confrontation of some sort - the LBS has to come to the point of deciding what he/she will and won't tolerate and take action-and that course of action is UP to the individual who is on the receiving end of this.

Again, when you take a course of action, you LET GO of what the consequences may be (spouse goes on and leaves, etc). But understand we are human and there is so much even WE will tolerate before something must be done, and each of our tolerance levels are different-what is totally UNacceptable to one person may be totally Acceptable to another-each one of us are different-those differences must be taken into account

Also found:
MCL resources links # 5 & 6 > Great one liners - I & 2
The technique of distancing:

It really is very complex and there is not only ONE way to do it. A lot of people confuse "distancing" with "going dark". They are not the same. When you are detached you are naturally distancing. If you are needy you are pursuing.
Going dark is about NOT contacting them at all. Not talking to them at all. Avoiding them.
Distancing is being pleasant but busy, Too full of your own life to "notice" what your H is doing or not doing.

[pbetra]

Confrontating the issues

My apologies for starting this thread (as mentioned before) - I will return to my initial post, 'mlc rut', from today, as that is my primary 'journal entry'. I realize now that I should never have started here - & am sorry about the 'double posting' or confusion.

To reiterate, my reasoning was simple:
have all information pertaining to this SPECIFIC theme contained in ONE place & not buried within the pages of a growing post. This was due to my confusion (& growing DESPERATION !!! re: 'confrontation' w/ MLCer. Also, my (ignorant) assumption that there were specific steps to be taken, when MLCer has to be confronted - during the many 'delicate stages' of their unfortunate experience.

The (common) Issue:
> MLCer doesn't listen to LBS as you know (has zoned them out)
> MLCer views LBS as enemy - doesn't trust, is rewriting history, doesn't like us
> LBS advised to give MLCer 'space'
> LBS to be patient
(w/me - no longer have frequent sex - what little connection was left through sex is diminhing fast, as all other MLC symptoms & ailments continue 2 persist)

What we have to work with:
The LBS issues above + reality of MLC, 'our working material', below:
> misplaced anger & blame
> lacks rational,
> unstable condition, many unknowns
> is in flux, 'erractic, chaotic chemistry/brain' ...

My concern was:
> How does LBS confront MLCer to COMMUNICATE much needed boundaries?
(given the working material while dealing w/the issues)

My ignorance & assumption re possible approaches:
> there MUST BE something 'special' (!!) for confronting MLCer re boundaries,
> there MUST be equivalent methods for this, the way that there are solutions like > going dark, > PMA > holding back / patience > PMA, > 180 > LRT ...
there must be equivalent behaviours & methods for LBS to act on, when confronting someone who has emotionally separated the LBS, all while the LBS is trying (!!) to execute those very boundaries.
Exactly how many eggs to walk on ... or NOT? Or continue walking on ALL eggs while implementing strategy A, C but not F or W?

What I found out:
> the solution isn't as involved as I assumed re actionable steps to take! b/cause ...
> there are not any specific solutions!! there are no identifible boundary-making solutions with so much irrational thinking and behaviour.
> Each sitch is unique to each LBS anyway
Continue w/ GAL

What I read & found useful for my particular sitch (maybe yours?!):
1 - Advice on DB-ing when sep spouse lives at home (re posted by Cadet)
- http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...710#Post1779710

2 - 'Struggling with Boundaries' (a result of proximity in my sitch)
- http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2468118&page=1

Should I find any other related threads or techniques that work without scaring MLCer more, I will make reference to them
See u at mlc rut in not too distant future (if u visit)
p.

---------------
update since writing -
matt165 gave me an idea of how to deal w/sitch today, in 'Struggling with Boundaries'

[AJM]

Helpful information to be sure.

Curious, if you know that the solution isn't as involved regarding actionable steps, do you recommend being yourself and letting the chips fall where they fall? Or do you recommend something else?

From my experience, I would recommend a little different - Work on detaching from the outcome and the rest will follow. You'll have more confidence, you won't be surprised by or hurt by the outcome, and you won't be worried about what you say or do not say. Instead, you'll be authentically yourself.

That's not to say there aren't some things to learn. For example, arguing with a MLCr is akin to arguing with a teenager. May as well nail Jell-O to a tree. If you can. So if you know that, then calmly (see note on being detached and expectations) disarm the arguments. Try not to, but don't be afraid to, start arguments or attack a MLCr. Unless you've first mastered the art of nailing Jell-O to a tree. Then it may be safe to try.

You might also want to link MLC for dummies in your thread. It's a good, light-hearted bit of information worth noting when looking for a way to deal with boundaries.

Finally, you may also want to mention that boundaries are for you. Pick them carefully as you'll be tested. But once you pick one, mean it. I mean, mean it like you're the person they modeled Band of Brothers after and you're defending the hill. Be willing to die on that hill for your boundary, else don't set it.

As you work your way through this, you'll figure out exactly what you can and cannot live with. Chances are it won't be the things you thought going into it. I know for me, the cheating wasn't the biggest issue. That surprised me at first, but you really never know how you'll react until faced with something.

Life. Always an adventure!

AJ