Hurt and Confused 2

[oad]

Not sure how to link to my old thread but here is a copy and paste:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2465361&page=1

Update:

Last night I had the game plan set up..and screwed it up..lol
she texted me when she landed that she was waiting on her luggage and was coming home. I didn't answer it and 10 minutes later she called wondering if I got the text. She never has done that.

So when she came home she looked excited to see me, so I couldn't leave, I guess I fell for her test. We hung out in the back and talked, she seems oddly friendly, gave me a big hug when she came in. So nothing about divorce or relationship was mentioned just casual we talked for about and hour and I got up and said its getting late and I have to go..she then mentioned what "WE" are doing for the 4th....its been a very long time that she mentions us doing something as a family...ill take it as another small step forward. Im just scared she is trying to friend zone my ass. I guess I shouldn't read into it. Today she has called and texted me numerous times about house stuff...I can see that being indifferent is kind of paying off a bit...but I guess im concerned about her intentions of being so friendly...any thought?

[Thornton]

Who knows what the hell goes through these WAS's minds. Tomorrow, she might be livid for some reason.

My best advice is to stay detached and try not to read too much into her behaviour. If she is softening up, it will become evident with more time.

[pilot]

Take it for what it is and accept the positive steps forward. Do not be too afraid of the friend zone. At this point you are not even in friend zone, so friend zone is a step forward. Plus friend zone could be a stepping stone back to M. Just keep the positive momentum and see where it ends up.

[sandi2]

Hey, saw your message to come by. You referred to a question you had. Is it regarding the friends only thing?

Here's where I stand on being friends with a WAW. First of all, if another man is in the picture don't even think about reducing yourself to being just her friend! As I told you before, anyone can be her friend, but only one man gets to be her H. And if she's discussing a D......but already saying she wants to keep you around as a friend, I have to ask why. You are not good enough to be her H, so why would hang around being a friend? Buy her a dog and save your dignity!

If I remember, it was your W who said that being friends was how it all began for the two of you? But then ended it with some kind of flippant response. Something like, "never can tell" or "just have to see" or something similar. That's not good enough, or shouldn't be enough for you. She says she doesn't want to be your W any longer and already throwing around the friend card! Why would you want a friend like that? You don't, and that's why the WAW and LBH look at it with different viewpoints. Which, I'll get to in a moment.

In situations where there is no other man, but she is a WAW and the two of you are living under separate roofs, I still do not recommend the friends only arrangement. If and only if and when she agrees to work toward reconciling the MR should you enter into a special friendship relationship with her. This period is comparable to premarriage dating. You are getting to know each other again and establishing some new ground rules during this time. It is also during this time the couple should attend a highly recommended MC to lean how to enter into piecing and avoid pitfalls that could derail them again.

I know that MWD used a letter to illustrate a possible upside of the LBH being a BFF to his WAW, but I have NEVER seen it happen on the boards or in life. So FWIW, this is only my POV. I see many WAW's (especially those in affairs) assume the LBH will be thrilled at the chance to keep them as a "friend" with the understanding, of course, that nothing more will ever come from it. The problem here is she is reducing his importance and his role in her life. She demoted him! She doesn't want him as a lover. She doesn't want to live with him. But she'll use him as a friends only? And I say "use" for a reason. It becomes a trap for the H. He thinks he'll be her friend and her feelings for him will ignite and things will eventually lead to back to a MR. But she doesn't think like this. She calls him when she needs someone to listen to her problems. She expects him to run errands and fix the plumbing or electricity, help move her heavy furniture, or whatever she asks of him. In other words, he is her personal handy man or gay guy. If he ever hesitates or declines anything she wants, she wails, gets miffed, and claims she thought he was her friend!! All she does is take advantage of his feelings for her. Some women even want to discuss OM with her friend only H.

So that is why I call it the friends traps. Nearly every WAW will say they want to be friends, but will hold it over his head if he ever objects to anything!! He wants more from the R and she abuses the conditions of the so-called friendship. So he is trapped. If he doesn't comply to her ground rules then she complaines he's not acting like a friend (while she continues to go on her merry way with no interest in resuming a M with him).

He fears she will see him being a jerk by refusing to be friends. (If only he knew she hardly ever has the mindset he thinks she will.). Yes, she will be utterly shocked that you would refuse the privilege of being her BFF. She will want to punish you for that little insult. Doesn't seem to dawn on her how you should be the one highly insulted to have your W consider you among one of her many friends, after she jilted you as her H.

[Maybell]

Sandi, thanks, I needed to hear that today.

[bashy]

Heh Sandi. Just read this post and it looks like it was addressed to me lol. If you can, have a look at my recent posts on 'Have I any hope...' if you have the time.

I feel in recent weeks my WAW has been using me as the person you describe above... someone to take all her stuff to when 'stuck' on a problem. Only contacts when she needs something.

It has angered me but I have not shown her this. I have went dark properly but have a feeling she has OM (although no proof even though she said she has met a guy for a few dates).

ANyway, any help would be great. I appreciate it.

[bashy]

Oh, and apologies oad for hijacking your post!!!

[Old Dog]

Sandi, what's a BFF?

And if you could take a look at my thread (Old Dog seeks New Trick), I'd appreciate it.

[GoatGal]

Sandi, this "Friend Zone" assessment was helpful to me too.

Thanks!

---GG

[sandi2]

Case in point, look at what Pilot said. (And not picking on him, but showing how men see the option of being her friend.)

Take it for what it is and accept the positive steps forward. Do not be too afraid of the friend zone. At this point you are not even in friend zone, so friend zone is a step forward. Plus friend zone could be a stepping stone back to M. Just keep the positive momentum and see where it ends up.

What men need to realize is the high importance of having your W to respect you as a man and as her husband! I mean, if she doesn't want you for her H in her intimate and private life.......how do see being demoted to just a friend as a step forward? Do not mistakenly believe that being her "friend" is better than not being in the friend zone at all. She does not see it with the mind you see it. You have ulterior motives to get the MR back, to restore her feelings, etc. That's the furthest thing from her mind and intentions.

Think about it. You were her leader, protector and partner.....and she no longer found it attractive enough to stay in a R with you. But now you are so greatful to accept what crumbs she offers as a friend? You think she will see you more attractive then? Why and how could she when she so obviously thought you failed as a H?I granted you she lost respect was why she lost the attraction. So, you might as well be her gay guy friend?

You have it in the back of your mind that it will be a stepping stone back to the M. The trap, as I explained in previous post, becomes terribly painful and frustrating as you see her contented with the friend zone and you feel very "used". What is really happening is emotional blackmail.

Guys, she won't respect you even like she respects her other real friends. Know why? B/c you SETTLED to be a freakin friend instead of holding out for the position of H! In the back of her mind, she respects you more for not settling for her crumbs. If she didn't respect you in the most important position of her life, do you really think she will respect you in a lesser role? And if you could not change her mind to be your W while you were in the higher position, what makes you think you can change her mind to be your W when you are in a demoted position? It is a point of respect and attraction. If she doesn't have it for you in M, I doubt seriously she'll have it for you in the friends zone.

Again, I'm not picking on what Pilot said, and I know you all are newcomers and learning. I'm not trying to fight about it......but do admit to being strongly opinionated over the subject. I just want you to see how a WAW thinks so differently from you.

[sandi2]

Sandi, what's a BFF?

Best Friends Forever.

(Which to a WAS, means about the same as "for better or for worse" in the vows they took. )

[bashy]

Wow Sandi... great post. I'm can going to copy this to my phone and re-read every day. I have definitely been trying to be her friend in recent times but it seems she has simply being using that to get things she wants because I won't say no... because I want her back and if she's being friendly with me when asking a favour I get all excited and jump right in and say 'yes' hoping that she will remember this down the line and wake up one day and go... "he's been there for me so I think I'll take him back".

[oad]

sandi2...that is the same thing my friend is telling me, he is a little more colorfull...he says "Dude take your balls from her and put them back on", you are right sandy, I need to continue on my path for me not her!! Ever since you gave me the advice of indifference, I have noticed she contacts me more and is more friendly, I should not have hung out with her last night. I should just move forward with my life without her in it...fake it till I make it. I think what would the 22 year old me say if we ran into eachother today? he would think im a wussy!!! In the end being indifferent helps regardless of if she returns or not. Its for me!!! got lots of plans for the weekend and im doing them, boating, soccer, the keys...Daddy is gonna have fun for once!!! thank you sandy I hope you continue to be a presence on my thread, it really helps me and im very appreciative!!!

bashy its all good...I hijacked a thread to get sandi back

[sandi2]

Oh gosh! Thanks ya'll.

[oad]

by the way to prove sandi2's point ....wife just texted asking if I changed the air filter of the house....lol

[bashy]

Heh oad. Much appreciated. We're all here for each other and when I read threads like this it lifts my spirits and gives me a little fire in the belly. Enjoy your weekend my friend. I have friends coming to mine for a BBQ and to watch the World Cup.

Sandi...thank you again!!!!

[sandi2]

sandi2...that is the same thing my friend is telling me, he is a little more colorfull...he says "Dude take your balls from her and put them back on

Guys seem to able to say that to "dudes", and remain friends.

Ever since you gave me the advice of indifference, I have noticed she contacts me more and is more friendly,

It works better than anything I know. If you act cold or angry.....it turns her away. If you peruse it turns her away. But not giving a care one way or the other.......draws her in. Crazy, huh? But it's her nature, and she can't help it. She wants to affect you somehow!

I think what would the 22 year old me say if we ran into eachother today? he would think im a wussy!!! I

[oad]

quick question though on the indeffrence.... ive never turned down her request to talk, should I shut it down, no more talking with her unless its about the kids...not be there for her emotionally until things change?

[bashy]

Good question oad. Adding to that sandi, and this may sound like a silly question, but what's the difference between being cold and indifference? How do I/we 'do' that?

[oad]

bashy go to my old thread sandy explains it...let me see if I can pull it out for you..

[oad]

here it is:

"If you act coldly, it tells her she affects your emotions. It is a reaction to something she's done. But indifference is not caring one way or the other. (Of course we know you really do, but it's what she thinks that matters.).

Try to pretend she is an elderly nosie woman who lives next door. This neighbor is a neusence in your life. When she starts asking questions about your life, you just smile and try to tolerate her, but you don't answer all her snoopy questions. You don't flirt with her or expect her to hang out with you. You don't try to slip in a hug here and there, nor find an excuse to contact her. You don't act rude, get angry, or sulk if she visits other neighbors or stops showing any interest in you. It's fine! It doesn't matter. You don't care what she does! When you get in from work and see her in her yard next door, you just smile & wave and keep on walking. If she stops you to chat, you limit it and politely excuse yourself. See what I mean?"

[bashy]

Excellent oad. So any interactions with her I keep short and to the point but polite. Show no interest in her life by asking questions?

[oad]

that's what im doing...if she talks you listen, but don't initiate a thing. when she left town this week I didn't say a thing, normally I would say have a safe trip...then how was it? did you have fun....not this time, I can see it was getting to her, so she finally just started giving the info up.

[bashy]

Ok my friend. I am meeting my WAW later to collect D and will be polite, happy but countinue not to ask questions or ask how she's doing etc. Unless any vets out there think this is wrong...

[oad]

remember she is the nosey neighbor, be pollite say hi and bye and good luck bashy, fill me in on how it goes.

[Old Dog]

Thanks for pulling that out oad. That's helping me too.

I'm a weekend husband but without intimacy.

[pilot]

Ok my friend. I am meeting my WAW later to collect D and will be polite, happy but countinue not to ask questions or ask how she's doing etc. Unless any vets out there think this is wrong...

perfect!

[oad]

I think we all have an equal plan, lets get to work!!!

[sandi2]

quick question though on the indeffrence.... ive never turned down her request to talk, should I shut it down, no more talking with her unless its about the kids...not be there for her emotionally until things change?

It depends on where you are on this journey. And also, everyone's stitch may vary just a bit. For example, if the couple are still living together, and the W starts talking at the dinner table or whenever the family are gathered together, I would be careful about cutting her off (as long as she's not being disrespectful and the subject matter is not about the R or inappropriate for the kids). This time with the children should be pleasant and gives you an opportunity to shine.

If living together, or not, and she begins whining, playing the victim, being disrespectful, b*tchy, demanding, bossy, etc., then you shut her down right then and there. If you don't know how to shut her down.......then you immediately leave her presence. But you do not tolerate her giving you a cr@p bath.

If not living together, and she calls to just talk about herself, or try's to manipulate you into doing something for her, end the conversation. (If it becomes a habit with her, You could even give a slight hint of sounding bored at her self centerness. ). After all, she gave you up, remember. You don't owe her. The only thing you have to discuss is about the kids, and if need be....you direct the conversation back to the subject of your children.

If she initiates the conversation, and as long as she is speaking politely and softly, and being civil, I think you should listen. (As long as it doesn't get to be all about her life and her problems too much, or not getting nosy about yours). If you see it is about to take a wrong turn and her emotions are getting ugly or it gets on the R, then change the subject or use the nosy neighbor method. If she makes a "request" to talk, be cautious. It usually means a R talk, or something serious. Just be on your toes till you can see what it's about. Use common sense with this.

It teaches her how she can talk to you and what you will not not tolerate. If she starts asking questions about you (especially if you are separated or she's brought up D)....she learns she is trespassing into your private territory. She doesn't get the answers she was after. It frustrates her how you can just smile, or give your little low chuckle and say goodbye or turn and leave her hanging.

She learns she gets no place with horsey behavior. She has to act like a lady before you give her the time of day. She can't dictate or boss you around. She can't even complain about you, b/c you don't linger around to listen to it. If she gets mad and throws a fit, she has to do it privately b/c you won't be her audience. She also learned she has to live with the circumstances of her choices and not go crying to you (of all people) and expect sympathy. Which really surprises her.

Yes, she gets frustrated, but what really gets her is how you just keep standing tall, and in control. She can't seem to ruffle your feathers regardless of her behavior, even when she starts spewing,, you call her out about how unattractive that behavior makes her look and then you leave her standing alone.

When she gets to the point she can talk nicely, respectfully, and politely, you seem patient and not in a hurry to end the conversation. Heck, you even validate some thongs she says! So, when she starts thinking of a possible reconciliation, she will approach you in the right manner/attitude. Funny how all this has changed her outlook of you as a man. She had doubted your strength. She wasn't attracted to you. She sure didn't respect you b/c she used to be able to speak anyway she wanted and you just took it like a beaten down dog. But no longer! And now she finds herself beginning to not only see you differently, but her own feelings seem to be changing.

Now this is all from the woman's POV, of course. Women have always used their mouth as a weapon. They expect men to be stronger. That's why they lose respect for the man they can beat down by the words they speak.

Does this answer your question?

[T-boned]

Sorry Oad, but I gotta hijack Sandi for a second here. I just got done reading all the posts on Oads new thread about the role of being a friend. I just want to know if that applies to the women too. My STBX H said after the BD that we'd be better as friends. I said something like, 'you've got to be kidding!' At the time I gave him an example of how ridiculous that would be and how I sure didn't see that as a possibility. Maybe when I'm 80! Basically told him in no uncertain terms that's not an option.

So, does the same hold true for the women of a WAH? I would think so. I, too, feel like it's emotional blackmail. And they just want to feel better about what they have done to you.

THANK YOU SANDI!!!!!!! Ditto on all the kudos you've been getting here. AND THANK YOU OAD for letting me step in here.

P.S. BTW Oad, I think you are doing GREAT!!!

[oad]

T-boned

No problem at all, we are all in this together. Gonna post an update.

[oad]

Update:

Well on the fourth of july I went to see the soccer match at a resteraunt and during the day WAW kept texting that the cable box is broken and how does she fix it...etc etc. I got angry and shut my phone off. Well the next morning I had 2 missed calls from her and 2 texts:

W- Are you going to come over and do fireworks with the girls?

W- let me know either way...the girls are asking.

So in the morning she calls and asked what happened that I didn't answer her texts. I told her my phone died and it was in the car. so she said to come over and say bye to the girls.

I went over on Saturday and she looked very sad and trying to be friendly, I was indifferent to her and very confident and in a good mood. When I said bye to the girls she was sitting at the table in like a daze. I went up to her and kissed her cheek and told her to drive safe. As I was walking out the door I could have sworn I heard her mumble I love you....I just left like if nothing happened. well its Monday and there has been no contact whatsoever from me to her or her to me. People told me that on facebook she posted pictures of them on vacation and a fish my youngest daughter caught. Makes me so freaking mad that all of cyber space knows my daughter caught a fish but her own father has to find out from a third party. Man it pisses me off!!!

[pilot]

You should not be pissed off. You can ask your W to let you speak to your kids through skype or talking. I doubt your W will deny you access to talk to your kids. It is up to you to keep up with them.

[Thornton]

Reel it in, Oad.

WHats your goal here? Are your actions bringing you closer or further away from your goal?

[CS000]

Oad,

I agree with the others. You shouldn't get angry or let it get to you. Just let it go as getting so angry and upset isn't going to get you closer to your goal. Act as if and work on yourself.

[topgunmb]

Oad,

I can somewhat understand what you're feeling. I don't know for sure, but I think W blocked me from FB awhile back (she says she didn't) so that the only thing I can see are when she posts profile picture updates. FB has been known to be screwy sometimes, but who knows. Anyway, there are times when I have family members and friends ask me about pictures that she posts of her and the kids. At first, it sucked because it always felt like a blind side. Why couldn't she share that stuff with me? After awhile, I kind of stopped caring and decided to take the high road. I would send her pictures of the kids every now and then when we were out doing stuff together. I would get the response "They look like they're having a good time." Eventually, she started sending me pictures of the kids when they were off doing things while I was at work.

Maybe the same will work for you? Extend the olive branch by sending pictures of the kids (don't include yourself) and maybe she'll start to think to do the same with you? Maybe some of the vets can comment on that.

[sandi2]

Oh come on! FB is nothing but a facade of what people want their life to look like, but it is stupid to let it affect your feelings.

She is experiencing feelings she doesn't like. She is trying to make others believe she is happy with her decisions by posting these "happy" pictures. But you saw the real side when she was sitting at her table in a sad daze.

My advice is to NOT reach out to her at this point of the stitch. No offense to anyone, but extending the olive branch is seen as pursuing in the eyes of the WAS. A WAW must experience this loss of having her H and the family life she had when they were together. How will that happen if you are Johnny on the spot extending an olive branch, soothing her emotions, and being the better person. These sayings all sound sweet, but This not the time. It will simply set your stitch back.

Get your big boy pants on and stop acting like a silly teenage girl over this FB business!

[oad]

Sandi2 yes that's what im doing, taking my balls back..lol like my friend says . You are right about the facebook thing, I shouldn't let it get to me. So far sandi2 you have been dead on, throughout my sitch everytime ive been indeferent she pulls in and would always get me to come back, then guess what...she closes up again and im left hurt. I need to protect myself at this point and hold on to my guns...if and when she is ready to work on the R, she will tell me, until then...bombs over Baghdad.

[sandi2]

everytime ive been indeferent she pulls in and would always get me to come back, then guess what...she closes up again and im left hurt.

Here's the thing....guys misinterpret what the woman's doing. They think it's a good sign when she pulls in, but she is temp checking to see if she can still affect him. When she sees you respond, she has her answer and looses interest. You have to play a lot harder to get...and for a lot longer.

Don't take her to mean a thing, b/c it is only a test.

[pilot]

Hijack alert*****

Sorry oad for hijacking but I would live to get sandis input on my last couple of posting. Sandi if you get a free moment I am potentially in the middle of one of those spots right now. Any input from you would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[bashy]

Hijack alert no 2.... apologies all. Sandi, if you could look at my thread and advise I'd appreciate it.

[pilot]

Hijack alert*****

Sorry oad for hijacking but I would live to get sandis input on my last couple of posting. Sandi if you get a free moment I am potentially in the middle of one of those spots right now. Any input from you would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[oad]

Well My W dad called today. He said that everyone misses me at the beach house, including wife. That he talked to her and she said that I still haven't changed and I will never change. That she will be happier divorcing me. Well he said that he doesn't buy it for a minute that she is happier this way. He mentioned how every morning when he goes fishing he is sad im not there with him. I love my inlaws, they are good people. Wish WAW would just stop and see whats going on. FIL says he prays every day her heart will soften. Me, im still on my road to make me a better person and father, still 100% indifferent!!!!

[asat82]

Good for you oad. Keep strong and keep working on yourself, and resist the temptation to get reeled back in prematurely. I am going through the same thing right now, and am finally learning that these requests to come back for tonight, or anything similar is just testing me, even if it feels like she is softening. She will let you know if her feelings actually do change and she will hopefully try to win you back at that point. Stay strong brother!

[oad]

Well I just deactivated my facebook account...im going dark in cyber world, except here of course..lol

[pilot]

I blocked my W but kept fb just because of all the years of photos of the kids. I am not very active on fb anyways

[T384]

Well I just deactivated my facebook account...im going dark in cyber world, except here of course..lol

I deactivated mine for awhile as well. there are many different opinions on blocking your spouse etc. I personally did my H was always screen shotting posts of me being out or tagged at places. Id rather him wonder what the boys and I are doing

I know it is hard to hear what your FIL is telling you but remember it is her dad. My sitch has gotten very complicated in the beginning because of my MIL being very involved (her choice). Her and H are now not talking and haven't talked since when he first left.

I would just validate what he's saying but don't fuel his fire. If he is feeling that way I'm sure he would run and tell W (I'm sure he would have good intentions). You want to be mysterious and as the advice I get make your spouse think you've had an awakening. You don't want her thinkig you're pining over her still.

And yes as a woman I'm sure she misses you. I'm sure she thinks of all the times you have. Gone together and now your absence weighs on her heart.

[oad]

Now her cousin texted me, he says the same that everyone misses me and my humor and all the crazy stuff I would do every year there, it feels good knowing her family cares for me a lot. He also mentioned something weird, he said "Dude you have to win her back" ...."I know you can do it"..."stay close to your FIL, he has good advice on that for you" then he writes "You need to change some things, lets talk in person when I get back"....I wonder what that meant? also he told me my inlaws are very sad about the whole thing and that my W hasent even told them we are divorcing, he heard it from inlaws. W hasent even mentioned me to her cousin..wierd.

[oad]

Need some advice....sandi2 if you are out there!!! . Anyways my W and daughters come back tomorrow from the week trip to the beach. I have been staying at my house for the week, should I be here when they return? If I stay my W will expect that I will help unload the car etc...etc...then she will probably tell me how much fun it was....then I will leave (probably looking in her eyes like a tamed dog leaving the house). Or should I not be here and let her call and say she is home and go by and pick up the girls for a while and drop them back off at the house to limit my contact. Any thoughts?

[zew]

I don't think it's that big a deal either way, but I would go with the second option. That way your time with the kids will not be hampered by the unloading. It also lets your W come home to an empty house.

[bashy]

I agree with Zew. Get time with those kids!

[oad]

thanks guys!!!I agree..think ill do some spear fishing in the morning.

[bashy]

Hi oad. Could u look at my thread. Any advice would great. Thanks my friend

[sandi2]

I think you need to be gone........and stay out late enough that she has had time to unload and the kids have had time to rest or unwind from the trip. ( I don't know how far they had to go.) Depending on time she gets in as how late you return to the house. You may even consider going home really late, but whatever you want. Just remember, , whatever her mood, it doesn't sway you from enjoying yourself with the kids (if they are still up when you get in.)

About the in-laws..........I'm sure they mean well. However, if her dad is taking up for you and trying to get her to listen to reason, he could be hurting the cause. It varies, and depending on his personality and relationship with his daughter. It would be best all the way around if the relatives would just stay out of it. But all you can do is not say anything to him about what you are doing (acting indifferent, DBing, etc.) or what you want to see happen or how you feel. B/c he very likely could relay that information to her, not meaning anything but to help, but you can see how that would mess things up for you.

So, you kind of have to play the "neighbor" role with relatives until this is all settled. If her cousin wants to meet with you, and you want to hear what it is he thinks you need to work on......then meet him for coffee somewhere and let him talk. But don't reveal anything to him, either. Just tell him you'll take into consideration what he said. And, being in a public place, you could excuse yourself if needed.

It's hard when the relatives are close. And you may have to tell them that you love them for their concern, and appreciate the prayers and encouragement, but that you may have to step back a bit until this is all over. Just assure them that your feelings for them have not changed, but that it's not really fair to them, her, or you to get them involved in this painful decision you and the W have to make. I think that would be a safe way to state it, but you may know a more tactful way to express it. Of course, some folks don't get the hint very well and keep involving themselves anyway. But that's about all you can do from your end.

[sandi2]

Oh, and to clarify about you being gone when she gets home.......it is not to punish her. It is not to look like a jerk. Nothing attractive in a punitive jerk. It is for space and you GAL. (So make that time count).

As I said previously, depending on time she gets home, but if it falls just right, and she texts you to let you know they are home........you may even stop and get carry out food for their dinner. You be the judge if it feels right at the time. But if she seems to have a piss attitude, then I say stay out till she calms down. Don't offer yourself up for a sacrifice.

Be mysterious about your GAL, if she asks questions of your whereabouts when she was unloading the car. But appear very pleased with yourself. Not giddy, just pleased.

It's a careful balance in some of these things. I don't want anyone (especially a newcomer) to misunderstand the reasoning behind my advice. I forget to to state it sometimes.

[oad]

I think I know the reasons behind your advice....you were once there. Its how you thought at the time, and why I appreciate soooo much your insight. Its almost like a chance to see what she is thinking, without you sandi2 I would have never guessed and made things much worse.

[oad]

oh and also, my FIL, stopped talking to her a month ago, he said there is no more he can say or do, if she wants to jump into this decision then let her do it. He told her that he feels she is making a huge mistake. He only hears tidbits from what W tells her mom. He wants to help me "Win her back".

[oad]

well I wasn't home when W returned. I ended up showing up at night, she offered a beer and I said no thank you, she asked my plans for sunday and I said not sure but I have plans...then she asked who is coming with me and I responded a lot of people. Yesterday she wanted to go to our daughters cheerleading practice

here is where I fudged up all the ground I gained...I told her lets all of us go together then have dinner...she said she was going to go earlier and hang out with the other moms(friends of ours). so she said for me to meet her there later...so I told her if she was going to do her thing with the other moms I would just do my thing and meet up at night at the house. So later on she asked if I wanted to eat there with the girls, I went we had some beers and she really didn't talk much so I just did my thing with the girls and left...today is dead quiet, I felt like she began to ignore me later in the night...I feel I may have stayed to long and she realized she still has me there...time to detach and continue being indeferent...man this is hard to do sometimes...urghhhhhh

[oad]

I also found out that people are starting to think that she is exaggerating how bad the marriage was. They are starting to tell me that they don't believe what she is saying on how horrible the marriage was for her...why do these WAW rewrite the marriage and turn you into their enemy and blame it all on you???

[rayzzz]

I hate that MLC script too oad. Again from reading those threads cadet put up it seems they just have to justify why they get to go through a metamorphosis...and stoning the one they once loved gives them free justification. AT least the people in your circle are not buying it. Better not to stew in this frustration (dude i was there most of last week!)..I keep moving onto forgiveness for WAW doing painful things to me, reminding myself that i still love her and then detach away with a back up GAL. Ok we're here for you man so just vent here and keep your head high...it ain't over yet pal.

[oad]

thanks rayzzz im here for ya as well brother...if they only knew the network of support we have here..lol

[oad]

Man this is hard....ran into WAW and she seems like she is super happy dressed all fufu...she acts like she is better then me, I acted indifferent but man I was ragging inside...after all I did while she was studying and going to school for her masters, to then turn around and say I did nothing to help her and that I was just another mouth to feed...urghhhhhh when she used to tell me how happy and gratefull she was for how I helped during that time and that now it was my turn to get my career going, it didn't work out and she bails...I wonder had it worked out where she would be right now??? money grubbing ungratefull biatch!!!

there I vented...time to go work out

[oad]

well work out was good...let out some demons...now im just a little mad..lol

[pilot]

You cannot think of it as 'where would she be right now without you' I know its easy to adopt that line of thinking. Maybe she would have married a billionaire. Maybe she would have married a movie producer and be super famous. Where would YOU be had you not met her? Maybe you would have married a crack whore. So that line of thinking is not productive

Think about how you felt when you saw her looking happy and all fufu. Now do that for yourself. She will think the same thing. She wont say it, but she will not be able to help it because you were once the apple of her eye, and in some ways, deep down, still are.

Be the fufu guy she loved once!

[oad]

well after like 2 days of nothing WAW called, we talked for 3 minutes. Mostly kids but there was some talk about her job. She sounded relaxed and so did I. I don't see anything changing until I land a fulltime job. Im getting out of the film buissness because it is very unreliable. One of her complaints was there was no stability with me. This job that I applied for is a new career for a big electric company (FPL). It pays very well and will allow stability back in my life. I can get my own apartment and start building my new life with my girls. I can see the disappointment in her face every time she asks how the job hunt is going. I haven't mentioned anything to her about FPL. Im waiting on human resources to call me for a time slot to take a test and get hired. Also during the week her cousin asked how things are going and she said better, that im being nice to her???? but she is still going through the divorce and still made cheap comments about me through out the vacation. Which shows me she is still angry and still emmotionaly in this.(good sign I think). First priority..land that job!!!! wish me luck and send positive mojo my way my DB friends!!!

[oad]

so july 27th is our 13th wedding anniversary, should I go dark for the day?

[Old Dog]

No answers from oad I'm afraid.

I'll have to check back in to see the answers here as the 28th July is the 21st anniversary of our getting together and also the 8th of our wedding.

We'll be holiday and I'm already dark.

Old Dog xx

[oad]

now im confused...it seems she is being nicer and she is starting to show signs of how she was a few months ago before she filed and was confused. She texted me this morning asking if I brought the girls clothes back on wensday??? I told her yes its in the hamper...she said ok...??? she also called in morning and I did not answer...yesterday she called if I was taking the girls this weekend, I told her that we already discussed until I get my place I just get them Monday and Tuesdays. she was very nice and soft spoken...she said it was ok she just wanted to know if she can take the girls Saturday to her cousins bbq...then I told her sunday I was taking the girls on a boat with the cousins...she ended up hinting she wanted to go..so I told her come if you want, she said yes she wants to...I told her then the 4 of us will go together. weird..im confused a little because she is still working on the divorce. still seems floaty and still acts like she is mrs fufu...dressing all posh. any thoughts?? sandi2 or anyone?

[Old Dog]

Sounds like she wants to be friends, but what do I know? I'm sitting downstairs on my own again after W scuttled off upstairs again.

[oad]

what happened odsnt?

[oad]

oh and I forgot to mention when I was saying bye to my daughter I turned around and she was looking at us smiling.

[Old Dog]

Ah, the first bit was directed at what you said about your W being nicer.

The second bit was mine. It's been happening for months, I'm sitting downstairs while she's upstairs reading a book or on facebook or whatever, I don't know. It feels lonely in my house.

[oad]

I hear ya...im at my dads house...at least now im going to have some dinner and beers with old friends..but I just feel like there is one thing missing

[25yearsmlc]

Well My W dad called today. He said that everyone misses me at the beach house, including wife. That he talked to her and she said that I still haven't changed and I will never change. That she will be happier divorcing me.


The thing I'm still missing after reading your thread (well I've gotten this far at least) is what it is YOU are working on in yourself. She has said a few times that you are selfish, and you have vaguely alluded to "issues" you have. But I don't know a single trait you are working on. What are they?

I keep reading that SHE does not believe you are changing, then you mentioned that "it's hard to show her" your changes when you are not together, but what are they? And while all this talk about distance and pursuit is well and good,

What about the underlying problems in the marriage? I don't buy that this is all her problem. If it is, then you're pretty powerless.


Well he said that he doesn't buy it for a minute that she is happier this way. He mentioned how every morning when he goes fishing he is sad im not there with him. I love my inlaws, they are good people. Wish WAW would just stop and see whats going on. FIL says he prays every day her heart will soften. Me, im still on my road to make me a better person and father, still 100% indifferent!!!!

Here is a piece on detachment b/c I'm not one of those who thinks it's the same as indifference. More like "hey I'm busy meeting interesting people, doing fun things and going to fascinating places so, maybe I'll catch you later...bye"

But if I were working on myself as well, & wanted to show change, I'd be sure to OWN what I needed to own. Remember the 180s? What are you doing to replace & contrasts her negative images of you (justifications for leaving the m) with positive behaviors? You know, like if you are habitually late and that bothered her, now you are Mr. Punctual. Any examples of that? (Yes I realize they'll be deeper than that, but I was going for clarity).

I don't think your wife, or any WAS, will return to a marriage they left, unless they believe,

that the marriage can be better/different than before.

How are you showing her that???

Anyway,here is the piece on Detachment: (originally posted by Peanut...)

II. Detachment

"Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.

Our ego gets wounded and then we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals. We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals. On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."


Hope this helps.

[25yearsmlc]

so july 27th is our 13th wedding anniversary, should I go dark for the day?

Depends on whether anything weird happens between now and then but I think when there are children involved, AND you want a reconciliation, something like a picture of the kids you have, and a note with maybe some flowers (but not red roses) that says "It's still worth remembering"
and or "I will always be grateful for what our marriage produced"

and or "we did SOMETHING right"...along those lines.

Then sign your name only (no ILY) and be done. Expect nothing from her and I mean that; expect nothing. Not b/c she doesn't care; she clearly does.

She's concerned that you are NOT changing as she needed and wanted (hence all the momentary from her family to that effect).

I notice the family is not saying they don't believe her complaints, just that they simply think she's exaggerating. That means to me that there IS some validity to her complaints. Instead of getting mad at the comments, try to figure out the truth pieces in there. Consider yourself to be on a reconnaissance mission and gathering intel...okay? There are clues you need.

So, back to YOUR personal work, what is it? Are you getting counseling for it? I mean, how are you getting the tools to make the changes you want to make?

I get the feeling a lot of these alleged changes are superficial (definitely vague)

and her fear is likely that if she returns, you'll revert to the ways she finds unacceptable. That is the biggest fear most WAWs seem to have. You know she didn't feel you pulled your weight with the finances and as unfair and out of date as it may seem, most women do want their h's to be protectors and providers...sorry, (don't tell my feminist friends I said that... )

I read a study that said the 2 things most spouses want in their mates:

Husbands said "attraction" And the anthropologists said that's b/c men are visual and value the looks of their partner in a competitive trophy way,

AND they value 2) peace in the home.
(Seems like no nagging to me, but I'm not an anthropologist)

WIVES said the 2 traits they most valued in a mate were: 1) security (meaning physical and financial security...)

and 2) fidelity, which is self explanatory.

But in a way that's really a form of emotional security if you think about it.

What do you think?

[25yearsmlc]

oh and I forgot to mention when I was saying bye to my daughter I turned around and she was looking at us smiling.

No mother is unmoved by the loving interactions of her children, with their father. Being the best dad you can be now, more than ever, is crucial for your kids and for your m.

I think it's an emotional turn on for most of us. Many women actually stay married purely b/c the man is a good father and or provider. The more you can do on that front, the better and it IS right for your kids anyhow.

I think that was nice for you and her to see.

[oad]

25 years thanks for answering, I appreciate it. The changes im making in me is putting my selfish need of a career that just didn't work out. Im an actor and producer, and although I had some success I know that I made my wife feel like the provider for longer than I should have. Yes I did things wrong in my marriage, but she held things in and would encourage me to continue while deep inside she hated it. I know have a golden opportunity at a new career making great money and completely stable, I know I still have a lot of growing up to do, im focused now on getting that job and an apartment and providing stability for my children and for myself. I spent a long time in self pitty and not truly seeing my actions which caused this. Im really hurting inside and its hard to figure out what to do, but I know if I just focuse on me and what I need to change in my life that everything will follow. I was a great provider for our family for 10 years, its when we decided that I should quit my job to pursue the acting career is when [censored] went south. Im very thank full you took the time to give me your advice...I hope you remain on my thread for more. its a tough road im on and I can imagine my W is on a toughfer one.

[oad]

well I went out on a boat with my daughters today and had a great day, came home and W was with her divorced friend at her pool all day...when wife showed up about 1 hour late she came in the house all nice(a difference from yesterday when she was all attitude towards me and crying how she cant afford the house anymore and wants to get her own place, all I said to her was I know this is difficult for you and we will get through this.)

anyways she was all nice and joined me for a smoke outside, started cheap talking about her day and what she did and was very adamant about proving she was at the pool by showing me the texts between her and her friend after she left??? anyways I was very tired and really not in the mood to hear her yap away all about her and her day so I excused myself and went home. Man im getting sick and tired of all this crap!!!!

[25yearsmlc]

Let me get this straight...

And btw, you MAY want to consider is advice I got from my DB coach.

The DB coach said if there is inappropriate talk with your spouse, (like of an OM/OW) then you get off the phone, end the conversation.

But when a WAS opens up about their life, you "LISTEN LIKE A LOVER".

Now, ^^that SORT of goes against things I think I've read elsewhere, but this was crystal clear from my DB coach, and not some "rules" we gathered into bullet points. This was serious advice.

I think it CAN make sense, depending on our situations.

In your case, You SAY you admit the issues that are YOURS, that you have been selfish and self centered in the past.

So your w opened up to you about HER life and HER days' events. She did not ask you about yours.

Since HER day bored you, and or wasn't about you, enough, you are now

"Sick of that crap".

Hate to point this out, but do you See any old behavior here?^^^^


If I were you, I would start seizing & making the most of these opportunities to show her the new you

(the you who IS interested in HER day to day life, even the minute details, b/c that is what close, loving spouses DO)

Use those opportunities to SHOW her the new you!

[Maybell]

25yrs, I don't want to hijack here, but I need advice on my thread when you get a moment... Thanks!

[oad]

25yrs...the reason I am sick of this is because I keep getting different advices, I do suspect there is someone else or she is searching for someone else. She at first wanted to keep the house cause she loves it, now she wants out because she cant afford it and because she wants to leave because of the memories here, she says I can keep everything or she will throw it all away, she is erasing our entire marriage,, she seems like she feels guilty and wants to divorce me as quickly as possible (her words) but that she just wants us to be friends...in other words from what people have told me shi is cake eating...ive been there emotionally for her but I have been told to not always be available. She is a completely different women now, she has become this materialistic status chick. She never was like that, buying sexy g strings(which she used to tell me she hates wearing) loosing weight, dressing like a diva and going to the gym a lot. Completley ignoring that we had a relationship for the last 15 years...the only time she seems interested in me is when I completely ignore her. When im there for her she treats me like a second class citizen. For example our air broke so I came by to fix it, she was at her brothers house, I called to tell her it will be a couple of hours more and when she hung up she threw the phone down and said "shut the f up already and fix the air" it really bothered her brother so he told me about it.

[oad]

sooo W wants to move in with her parents because she cant afford the house, wants to get her stuff and either I take the rest or she will throw it all away, seems like she wants to erase the last 15 years. She wants to rent the house out because its too big for her and she is scared at night...her mom bends over backwards to help her.

On a good note I have my entrance exam on Friday for FPL, full time career job. hope I land it!!!

[25yearsmlc]

good luck on the job!!

What do YOU want vis a vis the house? What's best for the kids, given the situation?

(When I say "given the situation", I mean to avoid carping about the WAS's actions. We KNOW you don't like what is going on but there's no point in rehashing that, right? Not that you were, but I'm just heading it off at the pass. You'd be surprised how many people begin with "I WANT my spouse to change back!" and there's no point in going there. We get it).

What matters is what you CAN do, & what you WANT to do, given the situation.


So, what is that?

[oad]

25 years what I can do is keep taking care of myself and being a better person and father. I know what my fault was in this marriage, and now if I get this job I can move out of my dads to my own place where the girls will have there own room and give them the stability that they need to continue to grow. I have no control over my wife, she is the one that will either see the stability that she so desired (which we had for 10 years)in me and soften her heart or she wont. time will tell, whenever I have the girls I don't call her for favors, I have the girls. But when she has the girls she is always asking me or her mom to help out with the girls. I almost feel like she sees me as a nanny.

[25yearsmlc]

sooo W wants to move in with her parents because she cant afford the house, wants to get her stuff and either I take the rest or she will throw it all away, seems like she wants to erase the last 15 years.

Instead of reading into WHY she is doing this^^, be glad she's not taking it all for herself. That may seem like small comfort, but it really is a common thing we see around here. And you have to stop seeing every act in as negative a light as possible. This^^ is a good example of you seeing an action many would see as at least slightly positive, and you turning it into something worse.

I know you are hurt deeply. But you can make things worse, and that's what ^^this does. So, just a gentle reminder to try not to worsen things.

She wants to rent the house out because its too big for her and she is scared at night...her mom bends over backwards to help her.

Not sure if you resent her mother helping her, and or if you are mocking her fears, but this ^^ commentary confuses me. I don't get why you're mad about it.

I guess you're just upset that she wants to leave the house, but if she cannot afford it, then this makes financial sense, right?

On a good note I have my entrance exam on Friday for FPL, full time career job. hope I land it!!!

I hope the exams went well and that you find work that is fulfilling. That will help you in many ways. The better we feel about ourselves, the better DBing we do and the better DBing we do, the better we feel about ourselves and then,

the better partners we become. Yes it's all connected.

Good luck.

[oad]

25yrs...you are right, I do tend to see the negative only. She is not fighting over costudy of the kids, she wants to split everything all good things. I am hurt just like she must be and I have to remember to focus on me and how I can be a better person. Yes this job would be huge if I get it...or shall I say when I get it

[25yearsmlc]

25 years what I can do is keep taking care of myself and being a better person and father. I know what my fault was in this marriage, and now if I get this job I can move out of my dads to my own place where the girls will have there own room and give them the stability that they need to continue to grow. I have no control over my wife, she is the one that will either see the stability that she so desired (which we had for 10 years)in me and soften her heart or she wont. time will tell, whenever I have the girls I don't call her for favors, I have the girls. But when she has the girls she is always asking me or her mom to help out with the girls. I almost feel like she sees me as a nanny.

Wow, Negativity again, and so soon?

I'd be glad she involves you (see? I don't see it your way at all). Sure, she asks her mom for help and she asks YOU for help which btw, is a great sign.

yes it is. It means she's not too proud to ask for help AND it means she's not afraid to ask YOU for help and it may mean she notices that being without you around

is harder.....so yeah, these are mostly all positive.

You want to fight about them? Tell her she can't call you anymore.

She probably won't. So, is that really what you want? Think it all out.


In fact, When you complain, even just to yourself, ask yourself what things would be like if the implications of your complaints came true.

Meaning, when you think to yourself "Hey she thinks I'm a nanny" -

go ahead and finish the thought----- "so I won't allow that. I'll NEVER help her with the kids again". I mean, that is the implication of your complaint, right?

So now what?

She probably won't ever call you for help again, right? Okay, then what?

She'd resent you, or at least not think much good about it. Okay then what?

The girls MIGHT suffer, or they might not. Okay then what?

Your wife might find someone else to ask for help and okay, then what?

So think out what you are whining about when you get negative - so you can slap some sense into your head, and be GLAD she's calling YOU.

Make sense?

[oad]

yes it makes sense...boy 25 im glad you are around with that 2x4 that I constantly need, I need to stop feeling sorry for myself and get to work on me and DBing. I do help her out, I complain about it here, but that's still complaining and by complaining I stay stuck in this limbo. I see your point 25...thank you

[25yearsmlc]

Sandi2 yes that's what im doing, taking my balls back..lol like my friend says . You are right about the facebook thing, I shouldn't let it get to me. So far sandi2 you have been dead on, throughout my sitch everytime ive been indeferent she pulls in and would always get me to come back, then guess what...she closes up again and im left hurt. I need to protect myself at this point and hold on to my guns...if and when she is ready to work on the R, she will tell me, until then...bombs over Baghdad.

I have no problem with what Sandi has said. I DO have a problem with how you interpret it often.

Oad, you swing back and forth into being an angry punitive "indifferent" 'jerk' at times.

That's the only issue I've frequently had with her (sand's) advice.

It's not the advice, but the frequency with which it is misconstrued that bothers me. This tends to happen especially to men, b/c maybe you see things more 'black and white' than we do.

The choices are NOT "Friend = weak/doormat" VERSUS "strong/confident/cold jerk".

Look at how she words it and make sure you are not 1) misconstruing sand's words or ignoring her caveats' ,

and 2) that you are not misconstruing your wife's words/actions, b/c you tend to view them with way too much suspicion, even when they are positive,

and then

3) you react negatively, or you get mad at her, until a bunch of us tell you that you are out of line.

Back off, give her time to see the changes you SAY you are making

(and which I pray/hope are really being made...)


You know, if WE here are not sure about your changes, how sure can your w be?

what are those changes? Can you name 2 specific behavioral 180s?

And your GAL? How is that going?

[25yearsmlc]

25yrs...you are right, I do tend to see the negative only. She is not fighting over costudy of the kids, she wants to split everything all good things. I am hurt just like she must be and I have to remember to focus on me and how I can be a better person. Yes this job would be huge if I get it...or shall I say when I get it

I know you are hurt. But complaining about her wanting to be fair is a little...wacky.

Just admit you are hurt that she wants out. That's understandable but be honest about why you are upset. Otherwise you sound a little nutty (no offense, okay?)

Can't complain about her wanting to split things evenly, or for her to pay CS, or that she wants to share the kids evenly, or that she wants to talk to you.

Also, fwiw, (sandi chime in here if you like) my DB coach gave me some advice about when my h and I were sep.

H would call me and tell me about his days. NO OW were in the picture that either of us knew of or whatever.

So there was not any wildly inappropriate discussion topic.
But he DID complain to me about his life at times, even though these were choices HE made on his own and which I opposed. It sounded a lot like whining to me and as if I was his bff for him to cry on my shoulder...

(I never once threw in his face the fact that I had predicted these bad events, and opposed his choices. Yes It crossed my mind briefly a time or two. I was so hurt! But I'm not always a fool. I knew STFU was the most loving thing to do.)

Anyhow, my DB coach told me at those times (when h was opening up & I was tempted to just end the conversation and show him what it's like to NOT have me)
But she said
to "LISTEN LIKE A LOVER"

and that was not easy. But i did it and it soothed him a bit. I noticed a marked difference in how he spoke to me the next time he called. A tiny bit more relaxed though still guarded. (I'm sure he expected me to bite his head off b/c I had before).

So I listened to him a lot more actively. Also, she said to "applaud loudly for the 1% positives h does"

and I did that too. Also VERY hard.

That was harder b/c of all the things I WANTED from him, which he was not doing. I felt as if he was getting a free pass.

But I did as she said and eventually he began doing more of those things I was applauding.

So in short, what my DB coach said, worked. it helped. THAT'S what matters, not us being "right".


Did my h "deserve" it? Probably not. There's surely an argument that he didn't.

But was that the goal? Meting out justice as I saw fit??? Or was improving our relationship the goal?

I decided it was the latter, and that's the road I took. I believe that 100% of what my DB coach suggested, worked.

I'm serious. I know we can't expect that, and I know that everyone will NOT have that same experience.

But she sure guessed my h's behavior better than I did. She was a Godsend.

She never once suggested exposure, shaming, guilting, or confronting h.

Just active listening, vigorous applause for the positives, and pretty much consistently loving him, while keeping my self respect. It rarely conflicted.

Food for thought.

[oad]

Here is where im confused, sandi mentioned to be indifferent for now, not always be available...so since I was always available she would eventually get cold again, then I would pull back and she would then open up to me, it really confused me. 25 I know I sound like a whinner to you but infront of my wife I show no signs of it, when I would leave I would excuse myself and wish her a good night. on a positive note we haven't faught in a while. I know that a friend from work wants to rent her townhome to my W, yes it will save her money and im for renting out the house, IT HURTS LIKE HELL but ill do it. Another thing when she mentioned it to me I think I forgot to say that my response was calmly saying "I know this is hard on you but together we will get throug h it." I then told her godnight and left. I just feel hopless sometimes because she filed and is moving out on her own, I feel sometimes like maybe she really is done with the marriage. I know im being negative but im sure back when you where in my shoes you must have felt the same, how long did your sitch last? did you ever get divorced?

[oad]

also she wants us to get together Saturday to start splitting everything, should I be there or tell her to get her stuff and ill get mine while she is at work?

[Paz2014]

Whoa, this is a tough one Oad.

I suppose one might consider what their goal is prior to making a decision. So...what's your goal here? I see a possible 180 or an "as if" coming into play. How would she expect you to behave? Or rather, how would you normally behave?

Yeah, it $ucks that she's being cooperative to get only what she wants and not to give you what you want but there is cooperation. So, this may be an opportune time for you to show her what a stand up guy you really are. It'll be hard to remove or put aside your emotions for the mean time but this meeting may just be calling for it. Unless there's valid reason for you not to be there (like if this would be a 180) then show up and be friendly. Act as if this step is getting you closer to your goal. Her moving out and being on her and discovering what life will be like without you + the girls under one roof could be the catalyst that will drive her back into your arms.

I've learned that for some people they absolutely have to go through the path of not least but most resistance in order to figure out what they truly want. Let it play out and check the post from Starsky on going dark (if you haven't already) on my second thread. It gives great insight on why LBS need to pull back and give WAS their freedom.

Good luck!

[oad]

ok so me and my WAW split our bank accounts 3 months ago, I opened up my own. Normally we would order checks and they would last us about a year. I opened my own account and got checks under my name with my dads address. I just noticed that she reordered checks and changed the color and scheme of the checks but left both our names on it? Its her bank account now, why would she order new checks and keep my name on it, knowing that she will have them well after the divorce is finalized?? any thoughts??

[25yearsmlc]

Don't read into the new checks thing. IF Anything, it's slightly positive and I'd leave it at that. She may fear hurting your feelings OR she may not be ready to make it so official.

Drop it for now b/c whatever it means, IF anything, could change tomorrow anyhow.

Here is where im confused, sandi mentioned to be indifferent for now, not always be available...so since I was always available she would eventually get cold again, then I would pull back and she would then open up to me, it really confused me.

Be clear about what worked and what did not. If not clear, just stay as detached as possible, which I happen to NOT believe = indifference. But I'll post about that in a bit.

25 I know I sound like a whinner to you but infront of my wife I show no signs of it, when I would leave I would excuse myself and wish her a good night. on a positive note we haven't faught in a while. I know that a friend from work wants to rent her townhome to my W, yes it will save her money and im for renting out the house, IT HURTS LIKE HELL but ill do it. Another thing when she mentioned it to me I think I forgot to say that my response was calmly saying "I know this is hard on you but together we will get throug h it." I then told her godnight and left.

Sounds reasonable. Good job.

I just feel hopless sometimes because she filed and is moving out on her own, I feel sometimes like maybe she really is done with the marriage. I know im being negative but im sure back when you where in my shoes you must have felt the same, how long did your sitch last? did you ever get divorced?

Can you read my signature block below? The highlights are right there...


We were at this, pretty much separated for 2 years. We saw each other during that time, and he'd sometimes spend weekends here, but he also lived in Alaska for a year, alone.

In 2006 I gave our marriage a "10% chance of success" to my sisters.

So yes, I have felt pretty hopeless before. Also, 1/3 of divorces filed in this state are never completed. People do reconcile. And something like 15% of divorced couples end up remarrying their former spouses, so that happens too.

I began to accept that the m was likely over but that I would be happy anyhow...and THAT belief was new for me. THAT helped me GAL and that helped me Detach, and move on. And yet I was upbeat and warm to h. I think it was mostly sincere (eventually I KNOW it was sincere on my end) b/c I came to realize that h would be losing more than me. And even though I did not delight in that "victory" (there are no winners) I did feel sorry for him.

My mistakes were not the type of thing you leave a wife for, and h was, in reality, being a jerk to do what he did. I needed to do a lot of forgiveness work and in time, I did it. And it freed me. I became calmer, more content inside, and more optimistic about MY future and my children's. I no longer wracked my brain trying to understand H or convince him or change him, etc. I let him go...I released him to his "mission".

And perhaps that got my h's attention. I don't know for sure.

I DO know that when the kids and I were overseas in Italy, on a great trip I planned, and h was not, it irked him that he could not reach us. And that we were there, having a great time. And he wasn't...

I promise you my goal was NOT to get a reaction from h, at all. I had zero expectations or even thoughts of him. I simply needed to do something for ME and my kids. It was so stimulating there, nothing reminded me of h, although at times I wished he was there for HIS sake, and we all thoroughly enjoyed our time there. We "proved" something but I can't explain exactly what that was, but it mattered.

Best money I ever begged & borrowed...and spent. It opened my eyes to the reality that I COULD be happy without him there, and so could the kids. We were still a family, and like other military families, sometimes a parent is missing and yet, happiness still happens.

Also we went to Retrovaille and that's an excellent marriage retreat. It's For marriages in crisis. I know it could be hard to get her there ("to help with the kids and for us to better co-parent"???) but if you can, do so. It won't hurt and it just might do a wonderful thing for you.

We got a lot out of it. Years ago we also attended a personal growth workshop called "Essential Experience" In Philadelphia. (aka "EE") and that was profoundly life changing. And you can go without your w and yes, she will notice a change in you. Other DBers have gone so you can ask them, (PowerOfNow, AutumnLeaves, StubbornDyke, and more).

**(I've been to other workshops and they are not all alike. But if you can't get to Philly for EE, (please try!) then maybe see if a "Lifespring" weekend is around you somewhere. I can't vouch for them personally, but I've heard from other EE folks that it's a decent program.)**

ANYWAY

having a blast with your remaining family/friends, being happy on your own, well that ^^ gives the WAS something to miss, which I suggest you do.

[oad]

25 yrs, you have been quite the eye opener!!! the reason I posted about checks is that her mom and dad keep telling me that for now its over...focus on you and in 6 months or a year when you both have separate lives you can ask her on a date, little hints I get like her wanting to keep our names on both cars and mortgage, and her telling me that for right now this is what she wants..so I should see this as positive little things. Focus on me and my girls and move forward with my career and goals. I feel ive been in a coma for the last 6 months and now its time to wake up, drop the emotional rope for now and LIVE LIVE LIVE..im off to take my test and pass it!!! first step in the new me!!! also I will go on Saturday to split everything up, will be positive and upbeat (as hard as it may be..man up!!). She would expect me to not go, so a little 180 is in order for me.

[sandi2]

Here is where im confused, sandi mentioned to be indifferent for now, not always be available...so since I was always available she would eventually get cold again, then I would pull back and she would then open up to me, it really confused me.

Are you saying the advice confuses you or your W's actions confuse you? B/c I think you were told (but not positive) to expect this. She will not show consistent behavior with you b/c she is going through her own stuff that confuses her.

For the record, 25yrs and I have always been pretty much on the same page. There is definitely a different approach or viewpoint in the style we address the poster. Mainly, 25yrs is much more compassionate toward the WAW than I am. She gives the WAW the benefit of doubt, where I give .......none. And I am hard on wayward wives b/c I was one and I know how closed her heart is toward her LBH..........especially if there is a third party somewhere. JMHo, I believe a "wayward" wife is..........worse (?) than other WAW's. Maybe "worse" is not a good choice of words, but I hope you'll understand what I'm trying to say here. She is more complicated. She makes it harder for the LBH.

And speaking of not good choices of words, when I used the "indifference" explanation, I was trying to paint a picture of what she should see in you....at this time. But not in a cold, punitive, selfish, jerk style. And i said that when I posted it. Nice, polite, but not chummy best friends. B/c I do believe a wayward needs to experience some degree of loss due to her decisions. This is my opinion (and I believe MWD made a similar statement in DR). Everybody may not agree. I may appear to project my own personal experience into it. I try to draw from my experience and help the unsuspecting LBH.

I respect 25yrs very much! And as I said, we agree on most things, but she gives a lot of positive credit to the WAW, and I see the bad part of the WAW. I am a lot harder on the WAW's and my advice is usually more harsh. I do believe the LBH has to find a balance in everything. We can't tell every move to make. We can't explain every little detail. But I do see a lot of LBH'S misinterpret advice, and that's understandable. I am not backing away from what I posted, but I sure didn't mean to cause confusion for you. Different people on the board is going to have different viewpoints. We all draw it from what we read, study, experience, observe, etc. Maybe 25yrs is correct in men being so black & white in their thinking. I have seen this in other male newcomers. And I know I am bad at assuming people know what I mean, but they don't always.

What I have advised, is to do within a span of time (hopefully, until she comes out of the waywardness). Understand that once she begins to come out of the waywardness, and you see her warming in her attitude, you would adjust your approach (not the respect issue, etc. but giving less the indifferent/uninterested response). IMHO the WAW has such little respect for the LBH and so turned off to him, that he has to pull completely back till she believes she's lost him. Again, everyone may not agree, it is my opinion. But guys, obviously in order to reconcile you would need to adjust your response at some point. Not compromise your values, or anything like that. Certainly not go back to how it was before the bomb!

I can get back to this later b/c I have a sick mother that demands my attention. I hope I have not confused you more! I was trying to tell you how to respond with your WW at this time. What I believed she should see in you. Why is that so confusing??

[oad]

Sandi its not confusing, I appreciate your advice because it comes from my wifes point of view...even though there is no evidence as of yet for O/M. Like I told 25 years, whenever she is warm and I warm back she then pulls away...I see it that she is not ready if ever to warm up and continue. I hope you are not offended by my confusion. im still following your advice with a little bit of 25 years. I think there is a time for your advice and a time for 25's. Im trying to find a middle ground. What I do know for sure is that in the past your advice was dead on...many blessings and prayers that your mom recovers!!! and thank you for your help during this time, im sure its hard to when your mom is ill.

[Mat]

Hi - I think for what it's worth, the advice you're getting is pretty consistent. Each person brings different nuances.

Something that helped me, is to journal for myself pretending that I am another person giving me advice (if that makes any sense). It's really a great way to synthesize what others are advising, in your own words, and uncover and resolve apparent contradictions.

I was really f"£$ confused for a while, and that helped me gain a bit of clarity. My odds of reconciling are still abysmal, but at least I feel like I'm doing the right thing!

[sandi2]

When I say the WW is worse, I mean it's like a different component is added. The WAW who is not in rebellion and trying to go through her second childhood, is tired and has given up on the M and is ready to end it. MWD's article on the WAW is excellent. That WAW is fed up and has lost all hope in her H and M. But I don't see the same sense of rebelliousness that is in a wayward wife. A wayward W can remind you of a teenager rebelling in her attitude, selfishness, dress, behavior, and actions. And there is no getting through to her.

If that describes your W, then you probably have a WW. If not, then you have the WAW Michele describes in her article. When I found myself in this state, it wasn't like I woke up one day and decided I would turn into a WW. It was a gradual process to a point, and then I went crazy and didn't even know who I was anymore. B/c the foundation of decades of disappointment and unfulfilled emotional needs was already there. We had faced crises after crises, and I went into a depression where I felt abandoned by my H. So I was vulnerable for an EA. I was vulnerable for most anything. When I entered that realm of compromising my standards or morals, I quickly lost a sense of reality. I took risks that were crazy, but at the time, I did not care. And as long as my H pursued, my resentment grew into detesting him. He disgusted me! Is that plain enough?

What confuses you, even though it's been discussed, is how a WW pulls in toward you if you back off and are not making her the center of your attention, but then if you respond all warm and fuzzy......she quickly turns cold & disinterested. I understand how that works b/c I was that woman! At this time, she does not want you, but when she sees you back off then she wants to check to make sure she stills has your love/feelings for her. So when you respond with obvious "warmth" that she knows you are still "there" for her, she pulls away b/c she doesn't want you. She just wanted to assure herself you were still there.

I have tried to tell LBH'S that they don't give enough time to that period of emotional withdrawal and treating her like an elderly nosey neighbor. Remember me saying that men mistake her being nice or friendly as a positive sign? If he gets of melty-man on her, she loses interest. Her intent was not to get you back into the MR. That is why I believe she has to be free to work on her issues while thinking she may have given up the man she really loved. She has to decide she wants him back. When she does, she will start being consistent in pursuing him, and becoming more like her old self. That is when the LBH will begin to slowly give her more attention and time.

If you stay away from her and truly work on yourself, she is going to see the difference. But if you aren't working to establish new behaviors, then you'll return to the old M. And as 25yrs said, that's the last thing your W ever wants to happen!

Everyone's stitch is different. There is no one size fits all with these solutions. If you look at my signature line, it says what I can summarize and do what works........not what you feel should work, but what you see works in your particular stitch.

You have to be consistent. You can't try one thing today to see her response, then try something different tomorrow to see how she reacts. You have to be steady and evaluate. If it's clearly getting worse, then you stop doing it. But most guys don't give it enough time b/c they are too impatient and want results yesterday.

Use common sense. For example, if you get a call saying there is an emergency, don't tell yourself, "Well I can't show her concern b/c I am being indifferent!" That's what I mean about being balanced. Make sense?

[Paz2014]

Hi Sandi,

This is some powerful stuff about women you're letting out here. No complaints. Just saying...

Do you have any insights for us women about WAH? Please visit my thread and spread your fairy magic.

Oad, I apologize for the hijack. I suppose it lies upon you to determine which (WAW or WW) your W is. Like Sandi says if she's a WW she will be in complete rebellion. And, our friendliness are tests of your will power to resist caving in. Are your W changes this drastic? IMO, I would rather deal with a WAW with possible OM than a WW with possible OM. While the line may appear ambiguous to you and perhaps other LBH about the mindset between a WAW and WW, they are succinctly different. I think that WW are driven more by anger than just hurt. They've moved past all the the hurt and pain and have progressed into a another level--rage. JMHO. I've been there too.

Do you value yourself enough (if your W is a WW) to put your foot down and give some tough love? Even if it means losing her. Or, are you hiding behind a false sense of strength that she can topple you down by testing you with one night of passionate sex? It's dark and twisted but women are capable of such things. It's not because we enjoy it but because we feel we've been pushed that far and because we aren't in our right minds in this state.

[Bob1967]

Don't mean to hijack thread but I could use some advise. You people seem really smart. Could some of you visit my thread? Are there other techniques to changing your wifes behavior? My wife is emotionally abusive to me. Here is the short story: I left her last year and she begged me back. I went back home and endured another year of abused. I've moved out again. I'm at wits end. I don't engage her just endure the abuse. I think we are headed for divorce.

[sandi2]

IMO, if the WAW has OM (emotionally, physically, imagined, or on the prowl looking) it classifies her as a wayward......in most cases. I suppose there could be rare circumstances, IDK. B/c she either has such a degree of hostility/resentment that it quickly turns to rebellion at the point the OP came on the scene.....or the rebellious spirit was already in her heart before he showed up.

Depending on the individual stitch, the WAW could be in a state of vulnerability for an A. Not making excuses for her, just saying it can lay the foundation for bad decisions. And I will say that I can see where not every single case is necessarily born out of deep rebellion, but I believe it doesn't tend to happen when she is happy and has her EN fullfilled in her MR. However, I quickly add that I certainly have not read about every case in the world. I know of one stitch personally, where the WAW was a very sweet and mind person. She had been M for decades to a cold man who would not give her physcial love or emotional support. As far as I know, none of her EN were met by him in many years. She fell in love with a M man and they all divorced and the two of them M. Knowing her personally, I felt for her, and I could not see an outward show of a wild rebellious change in her lifestyle, attitude, etc. It didn't appear as openly obvious as with some WAW's. But she was scr@wing with a married man who had a family!! It destroyed two families. Was she considered a wayward wife? I did not see what went on behind closed doors with her H. All I knew was what she said about him, which was not good. Listening to her, one would think she deserved happiness. She deserved love. Doesn't everyone? But why that way? Was she wayward?

The resentment and self justification drives some WAW's to head toward a life without responsibilities and full of entitlement. Finding OP is part of acting out the rebellion. It may start with an EA, or may start with irrational behavior (crazy lifestyle) that leads to OP. A wayward doesn't have to have OP, but usually there is one to show up sooner or later.

The OP makes things more complicated b/c she is so emotionally confused. But the root of the problem is whatever led to her rebellious spirit.

Sorry, hope I'm not repeating myself. Just want to reply to your post. Thanks for your kind words, and I will try to catch up on your thread.

[T384]

Sandi - thanks for your wise words as always. They are always helpful in seeing both sides

[oad]

Sandi the confusing part to me is that I don't know if there is OM..she is always at home or at work, she really doesn't do rebellious things like a teen, just the im turning 40 thing..oh and divorcing me lol. today her dad wanted me to go to his work to talk, he tells me that he hates what is happening and that he KNOWS I was a good husband who sometimes was selfish but enough for divorce, he says he is sad that he is loosing a son. He also told me that he knows I love my W. He says that right now she only sees the bad and that she is putting up a front. Case in point, today when I went to the house to get my stuff she was acting like she was sooo happy, when I left I forgot something and came home and saw her on the phone crying. Then I noticed that she threw away all of our wedding albums and pictures of us...what the hell...I cant believe she would throw that away as if nothing. I just feel like I may need to move on and except it is over.

[oad]

well today would have been our 13th anniversary, today im sad but im also gratefull for the 2 beautiful girls that my marriage produced. I am a very proud dad and I will hold my chin up!!!!

[sandi2]

She may not be acting out in some wild lifestyle (go to bars without you, staying out all night, etc.). And that's good.

She obviously is having a very difficult time turning 40. Some have a harder time than others.

Case in point, today when I went to the house to get my stuff she was acting like she was sooo happy, when I left I forgot something and came home and saw her on the phone crying. Then I noticed that she threw away all of our wedding albums and pictures of us...what the hell...I cant believe she would throw that away as if nothing

So you don't recognize this person, right? She could easily be caught up in an EA and you not know it. It may be MLC, IDK. It is something going on with her. So many WAW'S think they will find happiness by getting rid of the H. It takes time and hard knocks for them to discover that wasn't the answer.

Btw, get out of the house and find something to do today.

[oad]

sandi im going to my friends pool party, he is turning 40...go figure...but all my old friends will be there and they know its my anniversary today, so they told me to come on over and we are going to have fun, everytime I think of W I imeddietly turn my thoughts to my 2 little angels...like ice cube says "today was a good day!!!"

Hope your mom is doing better sandi...my thoughts and prayers for you!!