I am the prize

[Matt165]

Hi daring,
Sorry to hear about your son and his sitch. Just remember, he is hurting because of H's MLC as well as you. My D19 has been staying at her boyfriends apartment since coming back from her trip last week. I talked to her and told her that I didn't think she should be living with him and that's pretty much what she has been doing. What she said really hit me..hard! She said "But it's so NORMAL here, not like at home and with mom acting so nuts!".

I realized that the kids are taking this harder than I thought. Even at 19, she just can't understand why her mom is doing what she is. She talks to me about it a lot and about how "crazy" her mom is acting and how she doesn't want to stay at her place but feels like she would be hurting her mother if she doesn't (she hasn't yet stayed there but has been there 2 times). She says that when she tells my W she was staying with me her mom gets upset and looks "sad".

If your son is just out of major depression, H really shouldn't be talking to him the way you described. He needs guidance yes, but having had to deal with major depression in my W, it's easy to say the wrong things. He's trying to deal with the changes at home and in his father just like you are. I realized that while my W was still living at home, I was spending so much energy on my M and my W while mom was just acting out and denying, it had to affect the kids just as much as me and my W. Of course you have to make sure S16 isn't being disrespectful and breaking the rules or just plain ignoring you but at the same time I'm sure he is angry and confused and add on the depression and he must be hurting. It's so normal for 16 year olds to 'split" the parents. My D did it like a champ. But after she got a little older she stopped (part of me thinks she blames herself somewhat for W's leaving as how to deal with her was the biggest thing that we used to fight about).

I guess all I'm saying is just remember that with your M still "up in the air" I'm sure S16 is also feeling the home and family as "unstable" right now and that's a lot to deal with, even at 16.

[daring]

Thanks Matt for the support. That was a really rough day and I agree- these kids take it much harder than we realize even when we are doing everything we can to keep it from impacting their day today.

I'm sorry to hear your daughter is having a hard time as well. I understand where she is coming from- when my parents were separated and eventually divorced my mom would say disparaging things about my dad and get angry if I spent time with him. Even after I was married and had my first child I would hide the fact that I visited him from her. She found some pictures one day and let me have it. I finally had to put my foot down but it took me years. So hard when your parents put you in the middle like that. If your W is manipulating your kids- it will unfortunately come back to bite her. I always had a better relationship with my dad than mom because he understood that their issues should not prevent me from a relationship.

As far as my home- things are better. I'm emotionally exhausted from the week's events, but I think I did get through to H some and I'm impressed at his receptivity ( he used to be receptive but I hadn't seen that in a long time due to all his anger). He made an effort to spend time with S16 the next day and let the events if previous day go. He apologized for going off on him but still ate the expectation boundaries. He also is took both older sons to a work dinner with him the next night. I'm really glad to see that H is peeking through with some remnants of old self. But I also realize it's still a long road.

Have an awesome GNO planned to a concert tonight and one of my friends couldn't go last minute so I invited S16 and he said yes! I was surprised- and thrilled. We are going to have a great time!

[daring]

Well I had a bit of a backslide tonight, hopefully not too much damage done.

I had a really long day- have a Doc on vacation so I saw double the usual patients and did a surgery and finally left at 830 pm. I had known it would be a long day so H had planned to have kids ahead of time.

Earlier today he texted me asking if it was ok if he had some people over tonight to swim and grill. They are all from his work that he's about to leave, and I know almost all of them. I said ok as I don't want to be a %it@h and I also want him to want to be at our house.

Well, on the drive home I was feeling exhausted and bummed that I didn't have anyone to go home to for just snuggling after such a long day.

I got to house and he was wrapping up putting away good and getting everyone home.
He noticed I was down and I said I was just tired but he could see through it. Kept asking and I said no big deal if I wasn't so overtired I wouldn't be over sensitive. He seemed hurt that I wouldn't tell him- kept asking if he did something and I said no. Finally I just told him- it's hard that he wants to leave our home because he doesn't want to spend time with me but he wants to spend time with other people at my house ( I didn't include this part but of course it's my house and not his rental- we built an awesome pool and outdoor grill area a few years back just for having low key get together a like this). I know- bad DBing but it was either tell the truth or him be more upset because I wouldn't talk to him.
He said I know it's hard and I hate seeing you hurt. Then said he wasn't trying he to exclude me, it was winding down even before I got home.

Then talked about his upcoming interview with a company in CA- said it would be interesting- I said how so? Then he says he's tired and going to head home, we can talk tomorrow. I said are you trying to tell me you are moving to CA? He said no I like my kids, and believe it or not I like seeing you too.

Then said he was really tired. He had all the kids at his house last night and said he woke up at three and couldn't go back to sleep. I said why? He said I don't know, can't sleep with the kids but can't sleep well alone either.

Again something is slightly different- I see very subtle movement towards me but still needing the safety of being able to run back.

In any case- maybe sharing my feelings wasn't terrible DBing- I'm very strong and independent so showing that I want him in my life may help as long as most of the time I'm just doing my own thing.

[daring]

It's a mixed bag today.....
Good that H called wanting to talk and share with me when things were going really terribly at work today ( hate for him that the feeling of low self worth is clearly creeping in), but then he was distant tonight after his IC.

He always seems to pull back significantly on days he has IC. I'm not sure if he's having to face wounds and difficult topics so he " runs" from me emotionally, or if she specifically directs him to back away. There are some things he's told me about their sessions that seem very helpful, but others that clearly don't value marriage to the same degree I do, and also that push him to handle the kids in a way that is not necessarily the best ( I happen to know his counselor doesn't have kids so I am very wary of her take on things).

I get quite stirred up when he goes to therapy b/c I know it helps in some ways as it makes him think and face some of his issues, but on the flip side his previous counselors pushed him to ask for a divorce as they saw he was " unhappy". In his foggy MLC state I worry that he will listen to things that aren't what he needs to do.

So what this all tells me is I am getting too sucked back into all of this. I can't control what happens and I'm tired of roller coasters so time to get back to detaching and working on me. I was doing so well for awhile.....

[ForeverYoung]

Hi Daring, my darling.

He noticed I was down and I said I was just tired but he could see through it. Kept asking and I said no big deal if I wasn't so overtired I wouldn't be over sensitive. He seemed hurt that I wouldn't tell him- kept asking if he did something and I said no. Finally I just told him- it's hard that he wants to leave our home because he doesn't want to spend time with me but he wants to spend time with other people at my house ( I didn't include this part but of course it's my house and not his rental- we built an awesome pool and outdoor grill area a few years back just for having low key get together a like this). I know- bad DBing but it was either tell the truth or him be more upset because I wouldn't talk to him.

^^^ How did this effect his behavior or words in the following days?

In any case- maybe sharing my feelings wasn't terrible DBing-

I agree. Every case is a little different and your H is still somewhat present. I believe it is possible to build on that in a constructive manner, as long as you are NOT being needy or pursuing. You can be good friends, and even someone he likes to open up to. <<<This would be ideal right now, and seems like something you have an opportunity to achieve.

Now that you’ve told him what you did about his behavior hurting you, allow him to SEE that you really do have a fulfilling and meaningful life outside of your M. I know you’re still working on this and that’s ok! We should never stop growing/improving.

What’s a meaningful and fulfilling life for you? Continue to work on that. Make it real and H will see it… Maybe even want to be part of it someday.

Remember, for the M to work, H is going to have to catch up to YOU. He’s spinning and searching, and you’re the lighthouse on the rock.

I'm very strong and independent so showing that I want him in my life may help as long as most of the time I'm just doing my own thing.

Right!

Oh, and I know how difficult it can be when your spouse is not interested in snuggling, so... (((hugs)))

[daring]

FY!!!! ((((Hugs)))) to you too.

So how did my sharing impact his behavior? It's hard to say as he also has terrible things going on at work and is really down.
Two changes that are apparent- the night I mentioned being upset he was compassionate and didn't seem like he needed to " run" because he couldn't handle my hurt on top of his. Also made a point to say he likes seeing me.
Second is that when he is hurt or down- he's reaching out to me. He texted, and called and some of them he would say " just to say hi" but I could tell he needed to talk and I made sure I listened and supported. It's been awhile since he's come to me to talk when he's really upset about those things.

He was still a bit distant in person but I just let him have his space and go do things he needed to ( dinner with friends last night etc).
He flew out to LA today to interview for that new position. They want him to move- which he is not willing to do ( yay!!) but said it was a nice ego boost to see himself valued. When I said the right doors will open soon- he said he's just going to open them himself.
I love that! And I said I was happy for him that he was seeing his abilities in a positive light. And to let me know how I can help.

You are so right that he is going to have to catch up to ME, and has even said watching me shows him how far he has to go. I will be the lighthouse.

And in the meantime I'm going to a 4 day scrapbooking weekend with the girls next week, and then a cruise with my mom, daughter and close friend in a few weeks. I can have happy and fulfilling without him- but sure would love to have it with him

And I see glimpses that he would like that too.....

By the way FY you need to start a new thread to keep us updated on you!

[daring]

So here's where I'm at tonight and I need some thoughts on it....

For the most part things are positive. H met up with his friend who he started the initial company with and is at current awful place with. They talked about starting something up again on their own and H is really excited ( texted me at midnight last night on way home- good things- wanted to share with me).

Today he came over and we had some intimacy time that was great. Part of our SSM history were my issues, but he also got into a juvenile way of seeing sex and women and that impacted us significantly. I see him being more loving and connected which is really great. After we spent time just snuggling ( I had so been needing that- yay!) during that he just out of the blue says- I'm sorry I'm so crazy. I said it's ok, glad your job is becoming something you're excited about- that will be good for you.

Rest of day was back and forth us splitting up with various kids to get errands done. This weekend when I'm at girls time and younger kids are going to the beach with friends- H is going to take s16 for a fun weekend of ATVing so he was getting that all ready. All in all quite good.

So here's the part I'm having mixed feelings about and might need a mild smack upside the head. H's lease is up beginning of Oct. He has realized he made a poor choice renting a huge house and was considering a smaller house to rent. Then today he was talking about how he might not have much of an income for awhile as he starts up the business, and will probably need to look at something smaller, and needs to figure out health insurance etc. I told him he's still on my insurance ( since he filed for D but hasn't moved forward I haven't pulled him off my health plan and as long as we are married I don't mind carrying that. He has health issues that can't go without meds). I also said I would help him find an apt if he wanted.
What I was hoping he might say is he wants to move back. Part of me is not sure the timing is correct though as he just in the last few weeks seems to be emerging from the tunnel bit by bit. I don't think he's ready to commit and may not ever be- though I'm hopeful. I get the sense sometimes that he wants to prove to himself he can make it on his own ( hasn't asked me for any money) but other times it seems he makes the comments about " being broke for awhile until business takes off" and " having no income" likes he's leaving an opening for me to make an offer.
So what I thought I would do is bring up a middle ground- since our oldest will be back at college then I was going to offer for him to stay in S19 room ( maybe even rent it if he feels he needs to contribute) until he gets the business up and running and can get his own place. That way I'm not assuming he will just stay forever and it gives him an option and an out.
I feel like at one point I sent him back in the tunnel a bit from pressure even when I didn't realize I was placing it, so I'm treading lightly. But in this case I really do just want to help him. With a little hope but no expectations that he might eventually decide he likes home the best.

Input ( and smacks) appreciated....

[ForeverYoung]

Daring, you and H are interacting quite a bit and getting along well. I don’t see any problem with offering him son’s room as a temporary cost saving option. You just have to do it right.

No pressure.
No sign of expectations.
Decide ahead of time what rules/boundaries you think would be best to have in place.

If it were me, I’d mention the idea casually, after HE brings up the housing issue. I’d also include something like “If you think you’d be interested then let me know and we can discuss it further”. This way he knows you expect to have a say in how it would work out, and aren’t desperate for him to return.

I hope others offer you some advice regarding this issue.

[daring]

Thanks FY- I ended up bringing it up much like you suggested.
He was talking about all the things he needs to work on for new business and I said- " hey by the way, if you need it you can stay in S19's room for a bit until you get on your feet"". He said thanks he may have to stay with someone, either me or friends. I said just let me know. And then we went on to other topics at hand for upcoming kids activities.
He's pretty stressed lately with all the potential changes and figuring out finances- seems to be back in withdrawal a bit. I'm hoping that the lack of choice on having to stay somewhere- which might be at our home- doesn't set him back. But as my DBing has taught me, I can't control that
I'll just keep living and helping him where and when I can. I know he sees that I am a constant in the midst of his spinning- the lighthouse on the rock is shining brightly!!

[daring]

Had a wonderful few days at girls weekend scrapbooking and drinking wine
Even scrap booked last year's big vacation with pics of H and I and family and didn't feel down. ( that vacation was 2 months prior to BD and our first trip to Europe. I had quite a bit of resentment about it for awhile thinking why would he go on such a big trip and then walk out- MLC alien ship calling of course).
I found myself even feeling joyful as I spent the few days hanging with friends and documenting family memories.

So I have no idea why on earth I did what I did when I got home but I think I went bonkers for a little while.
After hanging by the pool and cooking food for week and swinging by to see the horse, I sat and read through old emails between H and I over the last few years. I did this once before right after BD and this time my perspective is much clearer as I read them and understand where he was emotionally, but it certainly put me in a more somber mood. Not sad or painful like it used to, so I guess that's good.
I have so many other things I could have been doing though, so I'm not sure what prompted that.
Have only two older kids in house, H dropped off S16 early evening and went to his home and crashed after a full day of ATVing, little two went to beach with friends so maybe the quiet did make me go wacky.

In any case, I have a little bit better understanding of the timing and I think the triggers for H's MLC. Still see him bouncing around but it seems for the most part replay is leaving our lives and he visits Earth with his mind intact much more than he used to.
Now to get myself out of this weird slump and back to my great PMA.....