Am I on the right track?

[wmwb123]

My wife moved out a month ago. I have only spoken to her in person two times since then, and both times I begged and pleaded (I hadn't had a chance to read anything at that point). It has since come to my attention that she’s having an affair. She denied it, but I have proof. She seems very guilt ridden because she absolutely refuses to talk to me and will not respond to text messages. I started my 180 of not pursuing her or initiating contact in any way a week ago after confronting her. Am I doing the right thing? Isn’t this exactly what she wants? It does seem to be better for my sanity, though, because it irritates me to no end when she ignores my text messages. How do I affect anything when she won’t have any contact with me whatsoever? And is this guilt she’s apparently experiencing a good thing?

[Dad+2]

My W moving out was the best thing for my sanity and health. In my own sitch, I assume (though I desperately wanted to) assume there is no guilt. Don't try to mind read, it will only drive you nuts. The idea of doing a 180 is as much of not more for you than for them. Once I was more consistent with my 180 (still not completely consistent as I still back slide), my PMA started to return and I started seeing what was really going on. I'm still reading the DB book and looking for help where ever I can find it. This may be what she wants but in my case it the 180 did cause a reaction. Only time will tell what the outcome will be.

HTH,

[wmwb123]

Does moving in with the AP speed up the reality check? If they're with their AP 24/7 (they work together), does that give them more of a chance to realize that the grass is not greener?

[Cristy]

The best advice I can give you is to call a Divorce Busting Coach today. Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and get things moving in a more positive direction. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004.

Cristy Harland
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[wmwb123]

I'm already in coaching. I am just looking for any information I can find. I keep trying to find hope in my situation. Is moving out pretty much a death knell? Or do those affairs tend to end in 6 months also?

[Cristy]

That sounds like a really good question for your DB coach. Do you have a session scheduled soon?


Cristy Harland
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[wmwb123]

Yes. She said that the outlook was bleak as we do not have any contact. People with kids have more chances to interact. My spouse has moved to another city an hour away. With no reason to see each other (other than the fact that I miss her), it's going to be hard.

[twinmom]

Every relationship is different. I know how hard it is right now for you, trust me I went through he@@ and am pretty much still there even though my H and OW are no longer together and he lives on my couch........

Honestly my best advice to you is try not to think about the affair 24/7. I personally know that is easier said than done. Make yourself as busy as possible and keep your mind busy at all times.

[Dad+2]

With time and the right frame of mind, thoughts of the affair seem not to come as often and not last as long. I still have to tell myself that it's out of my control and not something I have to worry about. I was finally honest with myself and realized that this affair could last longer than my hatred of it. Shoot, if my W ever gets off her butt and files, she may even marry the jerk. It is beyond my control. Statistically, Affairs do not last. After reading this forum, it looks like many can last a very long time. Knowing this, I'm moving on with my life the best I can. I'd suggest others to do the same. If the spouse does decide to come along for the ride, then decide what course of action to take.

[theoden]

nmwb123,

Sorry to see you here.

It hurts like hell, and you (like all of us) have racing thoughts and can't get yout spouse or their affair partner, or the whole bloody mess out of our mind. To tell you to try not to think about it is probably not too helpful: no one is THAT zen. ;-)

The reason people recommend "get a life" activity is to help you save yourself. Any activity that demands your full attention and helps you find flow (losing yourself in the activity) frees your mind from fixations on the affair. Sailing, martial arts, rock-climbing, painting, etc are all things that might help you regain balance AND give your mind a break. You can't really worry about your marriage when you are reaching for the next hand-hold as you scale the climbing wall or ducking someone's left hook in your kick-boxing class. Get in shape, give your mind some rest. Running on a treadmill won't help, it allows your mind to drift and you'll have racing thoughts. Pick something that really engages you.

On the positive side, you don't have kids. Sorry if that's cold-comfort right now, but this would be significantly worse if your kids had to go through this. You really have only ONE person to worry about protecting: YOU.

I'm not going to tell you to fix yourself or become a better person you so your wife can see the positive changes. That makes the next 6-24 mos of your life a miserable hell of walking on egg-shells and worrying if she's noticing your changes. Generally speaking, it doesn't really work. She knows your doing it to win her back so she's really suspicious and most people backslide from those changes. Lots of DB "champs" that mentored me THOUGHT they saved their marriages by becoming superman for 12 mos, 18 mos even 2 yrs. Eventually they slipped back into more usual behavior, and guess what? Yup. Their spouses ended up leaving them and cheating on them again. They are both divorced now. They used to have success stories posted on the DB boards.

Yes in THEORY if you, through some herculean effort, are able to change yourself significantly, and maintain those positive changes FOREVER, you might have a chance at attracting your wife back and keeping her. Michelle Weiner Davis says it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. In my opinion, you might have a better shot of making it through the Navy Seals training class. Heck...I believed it at first, and I SWORE I could change. Guess what? Didn't happen for me. I got exhausted. I forgot to grow a spine in the process and I didn't lay down healthy boundaries. In the end, the fact my wife didn't think her affair was wrong (even though she was open to reconciling)took the wind out of my sails. I couldn't stay married to someone who thought adultery was a viable, morally acceptable option.

For your marriage to be saved, you BOTH need to want to save it. DB-ing only gets their attention, but it doesn't really make them want to change themselves, or even experience remorse for cheating on you. That would take serious marriage counseling.

Here's my advice.

1. Don't pursue her. the more energy you put into the relationship NOW, the more she's going to pull back. If you give her space, she MIGHT be curious. Or then she might not. No guarantees here.

2. See a Lawyer and protect yourself/your assets. Know your options. Take steps to move on with your life. You can always stop the train, but getting it started means you are serious about caring for yourself. Right now you are acting like you are a footnote in your wife's story. Start acting like you are the main character in your own play. ;-)

3. If you have evidence of her affair you have to decide if you want to use it. You can wait a period of time and see how it plays out. Confronting her is only good if you give her an ultimatum. It's me or him. Decide now. Even Michelle Weiner Davis talks about ultimatums. They usually are only effective after the the Last Resort Technique and after going dark. In my opinion, your wife may have already decided. Ultimatums are, to some degree, a sign of strength - they show resolve and backbone, which is attractive. Unfortunately you only get to use them once and they don't always work out.

4. Give yourself a time-line. 3, 6 ,9 mos. Decide how long YOU are willing to leave the door open before you file for divorce. And stick to it. If it doesn't work out, at least you walk out with your dignity. Otherwise you'll be dragged in kicking and screaming through a divorce where you have lost all your power.

5. My personal experience though the whole process is this: the WORSE things I imagined would happen DID happen. And several years after the fact, I'm OK. I wasn't destroyed. The worst case scenario isn't going to destroy you. If I had that perspective then, perhaps I wouldn't have been so frozen in fear. What's the WORST thing that can happen? You lose your wife. And THEN what? Can your life still experience joy and meaning? Yes. Do we rise, phoenix-like, from the ashes? Yes. It's really hard to see that, but really, had I lost my fear, I might have been a bit more creative and, perhaps would have been able to f*ck with the OM in my situation, who happened to have been my best-friend.

6. Put on you inner Samurai. Suit up. Lock and Load. It's YOUR life.

Peace,

Theoden

[rayzzz]

wow. Take in all that Theoden has said: GAL and detach----expecting NOTHING from her (no texts, phone call, smile)will save your life. Yes it is counter intuitive! Keep memorizing and living out Sandi's37 rules but remember: you are still early into the game. I am still early into the game (4 months since DBing)
Too early to lose hope and throw the dB book away. It ain't over till it's over and even without dB I know of several people in my life who made it through a hellish separation and are still together. It can happen just keep the "road home smoothed and paved" a dB saying for don't backslide and lose all those hard earned changes. People who have reverted back to their old ways,
YES that happens
But if you are working on yourself and those changes are for YOU and make you happier and everyone in your world happier, not just your WAW you will stay changed. And then everyone wins.
Don't try to get comfort from this with family and friends: you get pity or "just move on" come here for support often. Fight with us who want our M back.
I am with you man. Work on what you need to change. Be the man only a fool would leave!

[Starsky309]

nmwb123,

Sorry to see you here.

It hurts like hell, and you (like all of us) have racing thoughts and can't get yout spouse or their affair partner, or the whole bloody mess out of our mind. To tell you to try not to think about it is probably not too helpful: no one is THAT zen. ;-)

The reason people recommend "get a life" activity is to help you save yourself. Any activity that demands your full attention and helps you find flow (losing yourself in the activity) frees your mind from fixations on the affair. Sailing, martial arts, rock-climbing, painting, etc are all things that might help you regain balance AND give your mind a break. You can't really worry about your marriage when you are reaching for the next hand-hold as you scale the climbing wall or ducking someone's left hook in your kick-boxing class. Get in shape, give your mind some rest. Running on a treadmill won't help, it allows your mind to drift and you'll have racing thoughts. Pick something that really engages you.

On the positive side, you don't have kids. Sorry if that's cold-comfort right now, but this would be significantly worse if your kids had to go through this. You really have only ONE person to worry about protecting: YOU.

I'm not going to tell you to fix yourself or become a better person you so your wife can see the positive changes. That makes the next 6-24 mos of your life a miserable hell of walking on egg-shells and worrying if she's noticing your changes. Generally speaking, it doesn't really work. She knows your doing it to win her back so she's really suspicious and most people backslide from those changes. Lots of DB "champs" that mentored me THOUGHT they saved their marriages by becoming superman for 12 mos, 18 mos even 2 yrs. Eventually they slipped back into more usual behavior, and guess what? Yup. Their spouses ended up leaving them and cheating on them again. They are both divorced now. They used to have success stories posted on the DB boards.

Yes in THEORY if you, through some herculean effort, are able to change yourself significantly, and maintain those positive changes FOREVER, you might have a chance at attracting your wife back and keeping her. Michelle Weiner Davis says it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. In my opinion, you might have a better shot of making it through the Navy Seals training class. Heck...I believed it at first, and I SWORE I could change. Guess what? Didn't happen for me. I got exhausted. I forgot to grow a spine in the process and I didn't lay down healthy boundaries. In the end, the fact my wife didn't think her affair was wrong (even though she was open to reconciling)took the wind out of my sails. I couldn't stay married to someone who thought adultery was a viable, morally acceptable option.

For your marriage to be saved, you BOTH need to want to save it. DB-ing only gets their attention, but it doesn't really make them want to change themselves, or even experience remorse for cheating on you. That would take serious marriage counseling.

Here's my advice.

1. Don't pursue her. the more energy you put into the relationship NOW, the more she's going to pull back. If you give her space, she MIGHT be curious. Or then she might not. No guarantees here.

2. See a Lawyer and protect yourself/your assets. Know your options. Take steps to move on with your life. You can always stop the train, but getting it started means you are serious about caring for yourself. Right now you are acting like you are a footnote in your wife's story. Start acting like you are the main character in your own play. ;-)

3. If you have evidence of her affair you have to decide if you want to use it. You can wait a period of time and see how it plays out. Confronting her is only good if you give her an ultimatum. It's me or him. Decide now. Even Michelle Weiner Davis talks about ultimatums. They usually are only effective after the the Last Resort Technique and after going dark. In my opinion, your wife may have already decided. Ultimatums are, to some degree, a sign of strength - they show resolve and backbone, which is attractive. Unfortunately you only get to use them once and they don't always work out.

4. Give yourself a time-line. 3, 6 ,9 mos. Decide how long YOU are willing to leave the door open before you file for divorce. And stick to it. If it doesn't work out, at least you walk out with your dignity. Otherwise you'll be dragged in kicking and screaming through a divorce where you have lost all your power.

5. My personal experience though the whole process is this: the WORSE things I imagined would happen DID happen. And several years after the fact, I'm OK. I wasn't destroyed. The worst case scenario isn't going to destroy you. If I had that perspective then, perhaps I wouldn't have been so frozen in fear. What's the WORST thing that can happen? You lose your wife. And THEN what? Can your life still experience joy and meaning? Yes. Do we rise, phoenix-like, from the ashes? Yes. It's really hard to see that, but really, had I lost my fear, I might have been a bit more creative and, perhaps would have been able to f*ck with the OM in my situation, who happened to have been my best-friend.

6. Put on you inner Samurai. Suit up. Lock and Load. It's YOUR life.

Peace,

Theoden

Awesome, awesome post, Oden. Some real wisdom in there.


Starsky

[wmwb123]

Well, she filed. Do I drag out the proceedings to see if the affair will end, or do I just give her the divorce she wants?

[wmwb123]

Any advice? Do I throw in the towel or hold out hope? We've had pretty much zero contact for the past three months since she left. There's been a little, but nothing that would allow her to see me in a positive light. Obviously she's not going to see a new me at the divorce proceedings. So do I just give her the divorce without a fight or do I try to drag it out a bit to see if the affair will end within the six month time frame?

[wmwb123]

Starsky, if you're reading this, did your W ever file for divorce? You exposed the affair, right? And she came back after three months?

[wmwb123]

My WW's affair has hit the three-month mark at this point, by the way.

[Starsky309]

nmwb123,

It's hard to give advice when we've heard nothing from you since mid-July, nor did you even respond to the TON of advice you got from Theoden (and others) above.

Can you fill in the nearly 2-month gap with some sort of update, other than "well, she filed." ???


Starsky

[wmwb123]

Hi Starsky,

I came back to see if I could get help after she filed.

My efforts at reestablishing contact were not working, so in mid-July I did a targeted exposure of the affair (close friends and her family). She called me furious (first time she'd called me in two months). I told her I wanted to help her, because the affair was going to hurt her physically, emotionally and spiritually. She said she understood why I did it but that it was not helpful. She then reiterated that she wanted a divorce. I told her she would have to do that herself. Three weeks later, she filed.

What else would you like to know? There's really nothing else to update, because she refused to answer my calls or texts. She hasn't communicated with me since she filed. Some people are encouraging me to write her a letter, but I said everything I wanted to say to her when she called. She's still in the fog, so none of it registered. Writing a letter will fall on deaf ears (blind eyes?), too, I'm afraid.

[Tarheel]

My efforts at reestablishing contact were not working, so in mid-July I did a targeted exposure of the affair (close friends and her family). She called me furious (first time she'd called me in two months). I told her I wanted to help her, because the affair was going to hurt her physically, emotionally and spiritually. She said she understood why I did it but that it was not helpful. She then reiterated that she wanted a divorce. I told her she would have to do that herself. Three weeks later, she filed.

What did you expect her reaction to be?? Telling her all the ways her A is going to hurt her comes across as nothing but controlling. You would have been better served by stating your boundary (I will not live in an open marriage) as opposed to outing her, but what's done is done.

Are you still in coaching?

[wmwb123]

What did you expect her reaction to be?? Telling her all the ways her A is going to hurt her comes across as nothing but controlling. You would have been better served by stating your boundary (I will not live in an open marriage) as opposed to outing her, but what's done is done.

Are you still in coaching?

Yes, I know I shouldn't have gone into all that. But I figured it was probably the last chance I'd get to talk to her, so I wanted her to know that I cared about her. Controlling or not, I can't just sit by while the person I love more than anything in the world engages in self-destructive behavior.

I am not in coaching anymore, because I don't see what else there is to do. Nothing worked. I stuck with things for two weeks at a time trying to reach her, but she didn't respond to anything. She's deep in fog territory. I had hoped that her parents would be able to talk some sense into her. Her father told her to talk things over with me, but she refused.

[Nitty]

Nitty, what do you mean by "H agrees to a form of MC?" I would like for my WW to go to a marriage saving seminar as a last resort. How did you get your WH to agree to MC? Was it regular MC or a last-resort seminar? I've heard horror stories about MC, so I'm not too optimistic about that route, especially since my WW has already told me she doesn't want to go to MC.

First, nmwb123, don't insist that your WW go to MC. I did that and it backfired on me. I did my research and found an excellent MC, H said he liked him, but the truth was that H was not ready and (unknown to me) was not willing to be totally honest at that point about the extent of his A. After a few sessions he left me and said he would never, EVER go to MC. He has maintained that opinion ever since.

Everybody's sitch is different, only you know what's best, but if I had to do it over again I wouldn't have insisted on anything. In the beginning I bought him books, sent him links to articles, did all sorts of stuff. All I can say is back off from that. You can't do MC if there is an ongoing A. It just will not work.

Now we are currently in D mediation, instigated by H. Our mediator is not an atty but a C who does D mediation as well as business and family negotiation. His specialty is described here: http://www.goodtherapy.org/conflict-resolution-therapy.html

When we started I asked H to consider the conflict resolution as an alternative to MC but H refused, said he was "done" and "through" and we only needed the D mediation services. Note that I suggested it and he said no. He is still opposing pretty much anything I suggest.

But when the mediator proposed communication skill-building to be done concurrently with mediation, stressing that it would help us streamline the process of D as well as help us in other family Rs, H agreed to participate.

It is not MC. But it can help us keep from fighting during D mediation so that's why I called it "a form of MC". He seems to have moved from being "done" to being "in reconciliation" in his head, somehow. I don't know how it happened. Who can fathom these MLCers?

Tomorrow he may reject it, just as he rejected traditional MC. Maybe he'll reject it next session. Or perhaps he'll stick with it and decide he wants traditional MC, too. Who knows?

I am trying to have No Expectatons and constantly remind myself that these MLCers dance forward and back, forward and back. Just because he's dancing forward right now, in my direction, doesn't mean anything. He has done this before and will probably dance back again.

What helped me the most has been reading hundreds and hundreds of the threads here, seeing what worked for people and what hasn't, again stressing that everyone's sitch is different. I hired a DB coach, too, who helped me through a rough spot.

There are no guarantees, but it isn't over yet. Be cooperative in D in that you do what you are supposed to do and protect your rights, but don't do anything else. If she wants this D let her do all the grunt work for it. In my case, my H paid for mediation, but after three sessions still has not completed his paperwork. You can bet your sweet bippy I will not do it for him.

Time is on your side. It is, as Cadet says, "a gift". Use it wisely, not to pursue her but to better yourself.

[wmwb123]

Wow, thanks Nitty. I appreciate your detailed response. That's very helpful.

I was just looking through your signature, and I thought things had improved for you. I thought you were on the path toward reconciliation. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm sorry you're still suffering.

My WW pretty much cut off all contact as soon as she left. I did not know about the affair until after she was gone, so I didn't get a chance to make any ultimatums. She was already gone, and she was already talking about divorce before I even recovered from the initial shock.

I never had a chance to really communicate with her and find out what I had done wrong. She would usually just say it was because she was selfish that she had to leave. Now I know what she was talking about.

I'm guessing she feels guilty, and that's why she won't talk to me via phone, text or in person.

Are there any stories of people getting through to their wayward spouses in the midst of divorce proceedings? Should I drag them out or just let her have the D?

[wmwb123]

Woohoo! Now I can post without time lags!

[wmwb123]

What did you expect her reaction to be??

Honestly, I thought once her parents knew she would snap out of it. My wife is a conservative Christian, and she knows that what she's doing is wrong. I did not think she would dig her heels in. I thought letting her parents and a couple of good Christian friends know would bring her back into reality.

[wmwb123]

nmwb123,

Sorry to see you here.

It hurts like hell, and you (like all of us) have racing thoughts and can't get yout spouse or their affair partner, or the whole bloody mess out of our mind. To tell you to try not to think about it is probably not too helpful: no one is THAT zen. ;-)

The reason people recommend "get a life" activity is to help you save yourself. Any activity that demands your full attention and helps you find flow (losing yourself in the activity) frees your mind from fixations on the affair. Sailing, martial arts, rock-climbing, painting, etc are all things that might help you regain balance AND give your mind a break. You can't really worry about your marriage when you are reaching for the next hand-hold as you scale the climbing wall or ducking someone's left hook in your kick-boxing class. Get in shape, give your mind some rest. Running on a treadmill won't help, it allows your mind to drift and you'll have racing thoughts. Pick something that really engages you.

On the positive side, you don't have kids. Sorry if that's cold-comfort right now, but this would be significantly worse if your kids had to go through this. You really have only ONE person to worry about protecting: YOU.

I'm not going to tell you to fix yourself or become a better person you so your wife can see the positive changes. That makes the next 6-24 mos of your life a miserable hell of walking on egg-shells and worrying if she's noticing your changes. Generally speaking, it doesn't really work. She knows your doing it to win her back so she's really suspicious and most people backslide from those changes. Lots of DB "champs" that mentored me THOUGHT they saved their marriages by becoming superman for 12 mos, 18 mos even 2 yrs. Eventually they slipped back into more usual behavior, and guess what? Yup. Their spouses ended up leaving them and cheating on them again. They are both divorced now. They used to have success stories posted on the DB boards.

Yes in THEORY if you, through some herculean effort, are able to change yourself significantly, and maintain those positive changes FOREVER, you might have a chance at attracting your wife back and keeping her. Michelle Weiner Davis says it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. In my opinion, you might have a better shot of making it through the Navy Seals training class. Heck...I believed it at first, and I SWORE I could change. Guess what? Didn't happen for me. I got exhausted. I forgot to grow a spine in the process and I didn't lay down healthy boundaries. In the end, the fact my wife didn't think her affair was wrong (even though she was open to reconciling)took the wind out of my sails. I couldn't stay married to someone who thought adultery was a viable, morally acceptable option.

For your marriage to be saved, you BOTH need to want to save it. DB-ing only gets their attention, but it doesn't really make them want to change themselves, or even experience remorse for cheating on you. That would take serious marriage counseling.

Here's my advice.

1. Don't pursue her. the more energy you put into the relationship NOW, the more she's going to pull back. If you give her space, she MIGHT be curious. Or then she might not. No guarantees here.

2. See a Lawyer and protect yourself/your assets. Know your options. Take steps to move on with your life. You can always stop the train, but getting it started means you are serious about caring for yourself. Right now you are acting like you are a footnote in your wife's story. Start acting like you are the main character in your own play. ;-)

3. If you have evidence of her affair you have to decide if you want to use it. You can wait a period of time and see how it plays out. Confronting her is only good if you give her an ultimatum. It's me or him. Decide now. Even Michelle Weiner Davis talks about ultimatums. They usually are only effective after the the Last Resort Technique and after going dark. In my opinion, your wife may have already decided. Ultimatums are, to some degree, a sign of strength - they show resolve and backbone, which is attractive. Unfortunately you only get to use them once and they don't always work out.

4. Give yourself a time-line. 3, 6 ,9 mos. Decide how long YOU are willing to leave the door open before you file for divorce. And stick to it. If it doesn't work out, at least you walk out with your dignity. Otherwise you'll be dragged in kicking and screaming through a divorce where you have lost all your power.

5. My personal experience though the whole process is this: the WORSE things I imagined would happen DID happen. And several years after the fact, I'm OK. I wasn't destroyed. The worst case scenario isn't going to destroy you. If I had that perspective then, perhaps I wouldn't have been so frozen in fear. What's the WORST thing that can happen? You lose your wife. And THEN what? Can your life still experience joy and meaning? Yes. Do we rise, phoenix-like, from the ashes? Yes. It's really hard to see that, but really, had I lost my fear, I might have been a bit more creative and, perhaps would have been able to f*ck with the OM in my situation, who happened to have been my best-friend.

6. Put on you inner Samurai. Suit up. Lock and Load. It's YOUR life.

Peace,

Theoden

Thank you, Theoden. I did not see this post until recently. I have been MIA for a while as you can see.

[wmwb123]

wow. Take in all that Theoden has said: GAL and detach----expecting NOTHING from her (no texts, phone call, smile)will save your life. Yes it is counter intuitive! Keep memorizing and living out Sandi's37 rules but remember: you are still early into the game. I am still early into the game (4 months since DBing)
Too early to lose hope and throw the dB book away. It ain't over till it's over and even without dB I know of several people in my life who made it through a hellish separation and are still together. It can happen just keep the "road home smoothed and paved" a dB saying for don't backslide and lose all those hard earned changes. People who have reverted back to their old ways,
YES that happens
But if you are working on yourself and those changes are for YOU and make you happier and everyone in your world happier, not just your WAW you will stay changed. And then everyone wins.
Don't try to get comfort from this with family and friends: you get pity or "just move on" come here for support often. Fight with us who want our M back.
I am with you man. Work on what you need to change. Be the man only a fool would leave!

Thank you, rayzzz. Yours was another I missed until the other day. Sorry.

It is early in the game for me, but unfortunately, my wife has filed for divorce. Now I'm looking for advice on how to proceed. I guess it was doomed from the start, and I never had a chance, anyway.

I have good Christian friends, and they are supporting me in my fight for my marriage.

[wmwb123]

My thoughts are this: My wife's affair has been going on for three months now (PA, the EA started six months ago). If most affairs end within six months, and I want to save my marriage, then I should at least try to drag the divorce proceedings out so that we do not end up divorced before those six months are up. Once she is no longer with the AP, maybe she will be more open to communication.

[wmwb123]

Unfortunately, I had to pay a retainer today. I'll have to file an official response. Every step closer to divorce pushes me back into despair. I do not want to divorce. If anybody here prays, please pray that my wife will come to her senses before the divorce is finalized. She's been gone for 3 months now, so I'm hoping and praying desperately that it's just a matter of another few months before her affair ends.

[wmwb123]

I have an appointment to talk with my attorney again tomorrow. She's going to go over my options with me again.

Does anybody have any advice? Do I dispute the "irreconcilable differences" and leave it at that to show her once again that I love her? Should I counter file for adultery to show her I'm standing up for myself? What's my best option here to work towards reconciliation?

[Wet]

Hi nmwb123, the best advice I can give is go to the meeting prepared. Bring tax returns, bank statements, a list of your important/valuable assets/investments, the deed to any properties you own, etc.

And most importantly, come with a list of your questions. This should be a good conversation between the two of you. Also, make sure that you understand if you are being billed for this meeting - attorneys need to be clear about their billing method (flat fee, hourly, or some combination). Good luck.

[wmwb123]

Thanks, Wet. I've actually already done the initial consultation. Tomorrow's a phone call meeting to decide on how I'm going to respond to the petition. Make the WW come up with grounds, agree to irreconcilable differences or counter file on grounds of adultery.

[SamIAm]

Hi nmwb -

Yes, you will have to file a response to the petition, but have you thought about speaking with your attorney about working with you to come up with a plan to stall the D proceeding otherwise? I would hope they could help you come up with a plan to do what you legally have to but do things that would maybe delay things and that wouldn't come across as retaliatory.

If you're like me, I just never want to give up hope. I've heard of couples who even got back together after an A and divorce. I, too, am trying my best to wait out my spouse'a A. I will add you to my prayer list and would ask that you add me to yours.

[wmwb123]

SamIAm, thank you. I'll add you to my prayer list, too.

[Georgiabelle]

Nmw,

I'm sorry you find yourself here. Your w knows you love her so I don't think disputing irreconcilable differences is the way to go. I would suggest not dragging your feet as it can make you seen obstinate and disrespectful of you wife's wishes.

Around 20% of divorced coupled remarry. Maybe you want to R and then maybe you decide you don't. For now, take care of yourself

[wmwb123]

Divorce, it would seem to me, would make reconciliation that much less likely, wouldn't it? The affair has not reached the six month mark yet, so I hate to just let the D go through before that. Add to that the fact that I do not believe there are irreconcilable differences. I'd have to lie to agree to that.

[Georgiabelle]

Only you can decide what is best for you. I don't say this to quell hope, however I feel it necessary to toss this out for thought. Statistically, most affairs last 6 months-24 months. Only 5% lead to marriage. I know a few of those 5%. While I'm certainly not advocating divorce (I think it's way too easy), banking on a affair ending within x time puts you in a very precarious place. You need to love your life and not check off dates on a calendar. Think about it.

Focus on your well being. Let your W walk her journey.

[wmwb123]

I know that it's not a sure thing, but I would at least like to see if the affair will end within the six month time frame.

[wmwb123]

The divorce could go through in two months, but the six month mark is three months away. I just would like to postpone it until then so I can say I did everything in my power. I know it's not my responsibility, because she's the one in the affair, but I still love her.

[Tarheel]

I know that it's not a sure thing, but I would at least like to see if the affair will end within the six month time frame.

I'd also like to know who's going to win the Super Bowl this year- I'd be a millionaire!

Just because your W has filed for D, doesn't mean your story is over. For one, start focusing on yourself- try new and exciting things, take up a new hobby, reconnect with old friends...

And two, become the spouse only a fool would leave. That's your best chance of reconnecting with your W, if that's what you wish to do. Maybe she sees the new and improved NMWB and decides to call it all off. And if not, refer to Georgiabelle's post that 20% of couples remarry- I know of one from my childhood.

[wmwb123]

Thanks, Tarheel. The only problem is that she's living with the AP in another city. We never see each other. How is she going to see the "new me" at the divorce proceedings? She shut down her FB account the day I exposed the affair, presumably because she's hiding from anyone who would disapprove of what she's doing. So there's no way that she will even hear about what I'm doing.

I've read of affairs ending during divorce proceedings and then the WH waking up to reality. I hope that WW's do the same. The one story I read was almost exactly six months to the day of the beginning of the affair. I know that statistics mean nothing, but 65% ending within six months is pretty good odds. Then there's the thing about love chemicals peaking at six months and then tapering off from there.

I just really want to see if my WW will wake up once that time period has passed. If not, then so be it. I believe God hates divorce (as he says in Malachi), but I know I have no control over my WW's thoughts and actions. She will have to repent, because I can't do it for her. I care deeply about her and want her to repent and return to God.

[bdub]

nmwb123 many vets on this board have actually said that W living with OM is actually a GOOD thing and that OM's true colors will come crashing through faster than average. In other words,if they are together all the time they will get tired of each others sh!t faster.

[wmwb123]

nmwb123 many vets on this board have actually said that W living with OM is actually a GOOD thing and that OM's true colors will come crashing through faster than average. In other words,if they are together all the time they will get tired of each others sh!t faster.

Exactly! That's why I want to drag out the divorce a bit. They've been living together for a little over 3 months now. They should be starting to see each other's quirks by now, right? I'm praying that those quirks will annoy them to no end.

[bdub]

Your L should have several clever ways to drag it out. In my sitch we are doing a dissolution so I have to come up with my own tactics. My W's A just ended so I want at least 6 months of "trial separation", i guess, so that we can say we gave it a fair effort.
I stopped helping W with the dissolution process, and it, along with moving, has almost come to a complete standstill. If she doesnt move out for a few months, and the dissolution takes 6 months, that really gives me a lot of time.

[wmwb123]

Starsky, I remember reading somewhere that you said your wife "came back." Did she move out? Did you kick her out? During the time that she was gone, were you still in pretty regular contact?

[Starsky309]

No, she never moved out. She did move out of the marital bed and bedroom, but never out of our house.

[wmwb123]

I see. Is it more hopeless when they move out?

[Starsky309]

No, not necessarily. They're not as able to see your changes on a day-to-day basis, but on the other hand it usually helps you DETACH and remain more upbeat and positive by not having them around, sucking the life out of you every day sometimes. At least that's what people say.

[Starsky309]

I honestly would have preferred that my wife move out during our sitch, and I suggested several times that she go live with her parents during her affair. She refused.

[wmwb123]

I wish my wife would move back with her parents instead of her AP. She seems to have decided she wants to live a life of debauchery. It certainly smells like a MLC.

[MrBond]

nmwb123, I haven't seen your story in your posts. It seems as if much of your focus has been on your W's A.

Where is your story about your past marital issues? Have you even read DB or DR?

[wmwb123]

MrBond, first thank you for replying.

Yep, I've read DB. It was one of the first books I read three months ago.

As for the issues, I didn't know we had any. There were issues with infertility, and that caused my wife considerable stress 13 years ago. I was not as supportive as I should have been during that time. Again, however, that was 13 years ago, and if I could do it over, I would. I was happy with our marriage, and I thought she was, too. I have always considered her my best friend, and she used to say the same about me.

I know that I failed to meet her emotional needs being preoccupied with my phone instead of conversation, but that was a mutual thing. Obviously, if she would give me another chance, I'd hang on her every word. I actually hate my phone now, and I don't even play with it anymore. If she would tell me what she felt was wrong, I'd be more than willing to change.

My focus is on the A, because I know there will be no progress made as long as it continues. In fact, I don't think she will have any contact with me until she ends it. We're not in NC by my choice. I hope that the divorce process will hasten the demise of the A.

[MrBond]

Still avoiding the issue. There must have been some other issues. List them here. Go back to complaints your W had and stop pointing the finger back at her with the "well she did it too" type comments.

One of the fundamental rules of DB is to find out what behaviors were negative to your spouse and how you can change them.

And actually, comments like - "I was not as supportive as I should have been during that time. Again, however, that was 13 years ago,"
don't help.

The past has a way of coming back out to the present if they weren't dealt with in a healthy way before. Rug sweeping problems don't make them go away. Plus just because YOU don't have an issue with it any more doesn't mean that your W doesn't.

[wmwb123]

What can I do about not being supportive 13 years ago besides apologizing for it, which I did? We cried about it together. I thought it was ancient history, but maybe you're right, and it is not, but what can I do about that? I could apologize again, but she won't hear me out right now.

If there were other issues, I honestly was not aware of them. I asked her to tell me what I had done wrong, and her only response was that I always got what I wanted. That simply was not true, so I objected, and she admitted that it was not true. I don't have much to go on. We were holding hands and laughing together just days before she left.

Look, I'm not hiding anything. If I knew what I did wrong, if there were a "list" of things to write here, I would. I would love to get support and input on how to go about making changes. I am not holding back. I really and truly have no idea what her complaints would be.

I mean, I could list what I perceive to be my own shortcomings. In fact, here they are:

-Short temper
-Procrastination
-Out of shape (but losing 25 pounds has made me look in shape)

I'm practicing with the short temper by maintaining my cool while driving. I haven't blown my horn in months.

As for procrastination, I'm doing things as I notice them rather than putting them off.

And as for getting in shape, I go to the gym three days a week now.

[wmwb123]

Should I write her a letter and apologize for my lack of support during her infertility treatment? I'm not opposed to that. I readily admit that I was wrong, and I admitted as much at the time when she came to me about it.

[wmwb123]

I had better clarify that list so we don't get sidetracked. My short temper manifests while I'm driving (mild road rage, I guess). I'm generally a laid back guy. I don't really lose my temper in interpersonal relations. I did not have a short temper with my wife. I did not yell at her or have angry outbursts. She didn't really ever make me angry anyway.

[MrBond]

"I don't really lose my temper in interpersonal relations."

What do you mean you don't "REALLY"? Either you do or you don't.

"I did not have a short temper with my wife. I did not yell at her or have angry outbursts. She didn't really ever make me angry anyway."

Just to clarify... anger is a choice. Another person doesn't make you feel angry. That's something you do to yourself.

"I really and truly have no idea what her complaints would be."

So the two of you NEVER argued? You never heard her complain about something but then blew her off because you didn't think it was important? You never heard her make a negative comment and then you when you asked her what she said, she would reply with 'nothing'.

It hardly seems likely that the only conflict you had was 13 years ago.

Much of your comment is from YOUR POV. About how YOU didn't have any problems with the M. There's ALWAYS something.

[wmwb123]

We did not argue, no. And I think that may have been a problem. I guess that we both kept things inside. I didn't tell her things that bothered me, and she didn't tell me things that bothered her. We haven't argued in years. She told me she always tried to make me happy and made sacrifices. If I had known that I would have told her to stop. I didn't want her to sacrifice her own happiness for mine. I guess we are both conflict avoiders.

And no, I don't lose my temper around people. I've never yelled at anyone outside my family. And I don't yell at my family often. I keep my cool because I'm laid back. It's just my personality. Unless you get me behind the wheel of a car, and everything seems to get on my nerves. I've been intentionally working on that lately. I know that me losing my temper while driving bothered my wife. I don't think that was what led her to check out of the marriage, though.

[MrBond]

"I didn't tell her things that bothered me,"

Like what?

"and she didn't tell me things that bothered her."

Like what?

"We haven't argued in years."

I really call BS on this. EVERY couple has conflict. If you didn't, you wouldn't be in this predicament now.

So she never spoke under her breath or complained to you about anything in over 13 years?

Look, to be honest, if you don't give us things to discuss, we can't help you. You can't hope that her A will just fizzle out and that she'll go back to you, unless you give her something that she wants to go back to. And that includes a new you.

No one will be able to help you because evidently everything was perfect. I mean, why do you think you're even here?

[wmwb123]

I think I'm here because I failed to meet her emotional needs. We had stopped talking and fallen into routine the past few years. It was boring. I like boring, but she doesn't. I am disgusted with myself for not engaging with her in conversation. She needed someone to converse with, but I was satisfied with just being together.

I don't know what to tell you about the arguing. We just didn't. I thought it was because we got along so well. But apparently she was holding things in. I don't know what bothered her, but what bothered me was her nagging when she'd get home from work. When she'd have a hard day at work, she would literally look for things to complain about, and she would go from one thing to the next like a machine gun. I usually just ignored it. It wasn't bad enough for me to lose feelings for her.

To be specific, the last time she did that it was because I left a bowl in the sink with water in it after eating ice cream rather than clean it immediately. I was on my way to the kitchen to clean it when she saw it and complained. Two seconds later she noticed something else that was out of place (I don't remember now, but it was something I saw as trivial). But you don't check out of a marriage because your husband didn't put his bowl in the dishwasher, do you?

[wmwb123]

I had thought about complaining to her about her nagging when she'd get home. I didn't think it was fair when we both work. But it didn't bother me enough to say anything. She didn't do it often, so when she did, I just ignored it.

[twinmom]

Make a list of what she "nagged" you about. THAT was her way of complaining/fighting with you.

[wmwb123]

The nagging would be about housekeeping issues. Clothes on the floor, dishes not clean, etc. I'm not a slob, though. Usually if her complaint was about my shirt being on the floor, she'd have pants on the floor somewhere else. But again, even if she considered my failings at tidiness worse than her own, is that reason enough to leave? These were not constant complaints. She only nagged when she'd have a rough day at work. And these things did not develop into arguments.

[wmwb123]

And I'm happy to be tidier. In fact, I'm making the bed daily now. But how can she see that when she's not here?

[wmwb123]

When she left and before I knew there was an A, I begged her for another chance. I asked her why she was leaving, and she said it was because I always got what I wanted. She claimed that she always went along with whatever I wanted to do and that she had killed her own desires to do it. She said now she wants to be independent and live life her way. That is all I have to go on. We honestly did not argue. I can't even remember when we last argued.

[MrBond]

The nagging would be about housekeeping issues. Clothes on the floor, dishes not clean, etc. I'm not a slob, though."

Again, I asked for a no excuses list. If she complained about the housekeeping, then she had an issue with it. PERIOD.

"Usually if her complaint was about my shirt being on the floor, she'd have pants on the floor somewhere else."

More of the... "well she said I did this, but SHE did THIS!". If you keep doing this, and trying to show that things were "fair" between you, you won't get your W back.

"But again, even if she considered my failings at tidiness worse than her own, is that reason enough to leave?"

Yes. I'm beginning to see what she had an issue with. You said that she told you that you always got your way. I can see that. You seem to argue your point to show that you're right or that the things you did weren't that bad because the other person did the same.

What you see as trying to be "fair", I can see it as just score keeping. If I can pick up on that after a few posts, I can imagine how frustrated she would get after dealing with it for over 13 years.

I can almost hear your reply to this, saying I'm wrong, etc.

[wmwb123]

And that right there is why I'm here. I think you're on to something, Bond. I can't argue with that, because that is a trait of mine. So what do I do to remedy it? I guess it may be too late for my current wife, since she's filed for divorce, but it is something I should address.

[twinmom]

Here is something I did while H was with OW to "let go" of things.

I would write down the hurtful thing (or in your case the "nag") and put it in a jar, when I could forgive/let go (ie not care who was "right") then I would throw the paper away.

[wmwb123]

Well, that's the thing. It bothered me, but not all that much. There's not really that much to forgive in that sense. I only need to forgive her for the A, and I will if she will come home. I will make it a point to discuss my feelings, though, and not avoid arguments like we've done in the past. I am ready and willing to do what it takes to make a better marriage. MrBond is right about my always having to be right. I can work on that, too. I know we can work this out if she'll just give us a chance.

[MrBond]

"I only need to forgive her for the A, and I will if she will come home. "

This shows you're not willing to change. You're still score keeping. You will only forgive her IF she comes home. Forgiveness is something you give with no strings attached. Either you forgive or you don't.

"MrBond is right about my always having to be right. I can work on that, too."

You're still wanting to be "right". And either you WILL work on it or WON'T. There is no "can".

[wmwb123]

Alright. I WILL work on it. And by "if" I mean that how can she know that I forgive her unless she comes back? I have forgiven her already, but she's still shutting me out of her life. And I can pretty much guarantee you she's not going to be receptive to an e-mail saying I forgive her at this point.

[Georgiabelle]

NMW,

I'm sorry you are struggling. You've received stellar advice. Forgiveness is for YOU. It's not to *win * someone back. Stop focusing on "what if w......? how can w....?", etc. The only person you control is you. Either work on you or don't. This isn't a gimmick. Sorry if that's harsh although it appears you are looking for an answer when there is none.

[wmwb123]

Yeah, I know. I keep looking for answers that don't exist. I am working on me, though. I'm stronger now than I was three months ago. I also have a better outlook.

[MrBond]

By changing your thinking even though she's not there.

Right now you're still keeping score in your mind. Start changing that habit.

[bdub]

When she left and before I knew there was an A, I begged her for another chance. I asked her why she was leaving, and she said it was because I always got what I wanted. She claimed that she always went along with whatever I wanted to do and that she had killed her own desires to do it. She said now she wants to be independent and live life her way. That is all I have to go on. We honestly did not argue. I can't even remember when we last argued.

This is HUGE. I got the same reasoning when my W dropped the bomb on me. I explored this a little and it became very evident in my sitch that W felt her opinion didnt matter and we just always did what I wanted to do and that was it. It made her feel like she was in a father / daughter type relationship. In fact, I recall a few times she even said " stop treating me like you are my dad". I thought it was ridiculous at the time. Looking back, I screwed up big time. Take some time to explore this issue. If this is actually your case also, you can start working on it and start letting go of the control. Early on in our R, my W said " score points, make a decision". I took that and ran with it for 15 years thinking I was racking up the points. I never looked back and she never tried to stop me.

[wmwb123]

Well, in that same conversation, I told her that if that was how she felt that I would leave all decisions up to her from now on. I told her I trusted her judgment. And I do. I thought all our decisions were mutual, but maybe she felt that they weren't. I didn't see it that way, but if she did, I'm not going to dispute it. I don't know how I can show her anything different while she lives with her AP and has filed for divorce, though.

[Starsky309]

Well, in that same conversation, I told her that if that was how she felt that I would leave all decisions up to her from now on.

Appeasement and supplication. Not attractive.

[wmwb123]

Well, in that same conversation, I told her that if that was how she felt that I would leave all decisions up to her from now on.

Appeasement and supplication. Not attractive.

Now you tell me. Just kidding. At the time I did not realize there was an A, so I was begging and pleading. Did I mention I was so distraught I actually vomited in front of her? Yeah, I was not attractive those first few weeks.

[wmwb123]

By changing your thinking even though she's not there.

Right now you're still keeping score in your mind. Start changing that habit.

Thanks. I will do that.

[Starsky309]

Did I mention I was so distraught I actually vomited in front of her? Yeah, I was not attractive those first few weeks.

Always a great look.


Sorry. Thought maybe you could use a laugh today.

[wmwb123]

Yeah, I could use a laugh. This whole situation is awful. I think I messed up pretty bad at first. She left me on May 29, and I begged an pleaded until June 9. I discovered the affair shortly after that. I really haven't handled any part of this process well. Her last message to me was on August 9, and I haven't communicated with her at all since then. I got the D papers at the end of August. She told me I was a "good and faithful husband," so I hope she meant it and that she'll start to remember good things about me now that she's got all the space she wants.

[wmwb123]

Bond and Starsky, you guys have been here for a long time. You've helped hundreds if not thousands of people. Am I dead in the water? Is there still hope this marriage could be salvaged?

[Starsky309]

Yeah, I could use a laugh. This whole situation is awful. I think I messed up pretty bad at first. She left me on May 29, and I begged an pleaded until June 9. I discovered the affair shortly after that. I really haven't handled any part of this process well. Her last message to me was on August 9, and I haven't communicated with her at all since then. I got the D papers at the end of August. She told me I was a "good and faithful husband," so I hope she meant it and that she'll start to remember good things about me now that she's got all the space she wants.

Don't be too hard on yourself, brother. This is not only INCREDIBLY difficult, but it's the type of thing that hardly ANYONE ever sees coming. Hardest damned thing I've ever done in my life, to date.

[Starsky309]

Bond and Starsky, you guys have been here for a long time. You've helped hundreds if not thousands of people. Am I dead in the water? Is there still hope this marriage could be salvaged?

There's always hope. You have a lot of shared history together.

Are you familiar with The Stockdale Paradox?

[wmwb123]

We have a whole lot of shared history together. 17 years. And I keep telling people that tell me to move on that yes, she's hurt me more than any other person on the planet, but up until now she's also made me happier than any other person on the planet. I do love her with all my heart. Despite what she says, I know that she loved me at one time, too.

No, I'm not familiar with The Stockdale Paradox. What is that? (I'll be googling it until your reply...)

[Starsky309]

STOCKDALE PARADOX:

"You must retain faith that you can prevail to greatness in the end, while retaining the discipline to confront the brutal facts of your current reality."

Admiral James Stockdale was shot down in Viet Nam and imprisoned in the "Hanoi Hilton" for almost eight years. He was also its highest-ranking officer. He writes about his experience in his book, In Love and War. How did he survive while others did not? "Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties." He adds, however, what distinguishes his position from simple "optimism" - and formulates what has become known as the Stockdale Paradox: "and confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."

This is the critical difference which guards against the endless disappointment that optimism’s carrots' evasiveness create - until, maybe, the reward in the end. On the other hand, an ability to continue making realistic assessments of one's current life situation measures and apportions one’s energies and reserves to better face each challenge as it comes, thus positioning one with a stronger chance to prevail.

[wmwb123]

Thank you for that. Yes, I'm like the optimistic prisoners that died. I went into a pretty deep depression when my WW's affair reached the one-month mark. Then again at two months. I've been doing a little better since then and did not really panic at the three-month mark.

[Starsky309]

The two best mindsets I've seen for successful DBing when there's an affair involved, are The Stockdale Paradox . . . and the "You're already dead" scene from Band of Brothers.

Both very powerful if you can wrap your brain around their concepts.


Starsky

[MrBond]

What Starsky said. There's always a chance. It's not an easy or quick process. You will need patience like never before.

[wmwb123]

What Starsky said. There's always a chance. It's not an easy or quick process. You will need patience like never before.

Interesting that you say that. I printed the word "PATIENCE" on a piece of paper and stuck it on my refrigerator a couple of months ago.

[Drew]

And I would add that I recommmend that you stop thinking about this with a certain timetable in mind. There is no timetable. You seem to put a lot of stock in the "most affairs burn out in six months" so "all I have to do is get to six months...."

Throw away the calendar and work on you.

[wmwb123]

And I would add that I recommmend that you stop thinking about this with a certain timetable in mind. There is no timetable. You seem to put a lot of stock in the "most affairs burn out in six months" so "all I have to do is get to six months...."

Throw away the calendar and work on you.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. The MSNBC survey indicated that 65% of affairs end within six months. I've read elsewhere that upwards of 80% end within a year. The reason I'm hoping for the six month figure is that I think our divorce will be over before the year mark since we do not have children.

I've followed two affairs on another forum that ended almost six months to the day, and I've seen at least one on here that was six months. I know that statistics mean nothing. I don't think I just have to get to six months. I just think that all I have is six months. Who knows, though? Maybe the D process will be stalled or maybe my WW will have second thoughts. Working on me is all I can do. I have no control over her thoughts or actions.

[MrBond]

Let me clarify something. Patience doesn't mean that you just sit around and wait for something to happen. You do what you can to better yourself while the WAS is gone. It seems like you're just waiting around for something to happen.

[Georgiabelle]

^^^^^^^

Yes. And even if the A ends, it doesn't mean she will be hauling booty back to you. You still think there is a magic *bullet* to bring her back. Work on you FOR you. Maybe she notices.

[wmwb123]

No, I don't think there's a magic bullet. I just know that she's not going to even consider coming back to me unless and until she ends her affair.

I've started a new thread here