Sex was great, then we married part 3

[Grey]

Original threads

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2465407&page=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2461450&page=1


Right now I'm waiting again. Waiting for her to try something, any action to show she either cares about her health or our marriage enough to take some responsibility, which you have to do no matter what the problem is.

In the meantime, she's perfectly happy not to change anything. That's the trick. I have to wait again until I can't wait anymore and my therapist says I should say something, so for now I just wait another 2 weeks to see my therapist and I'll take Tylenol PM on the weekends to make sure I get sleep even when I feel the most rejected (she'll stay up past 2 AM this weekend drinking with friends for the holiday but saying she's too tired for me is what hurts so I can't sleep but tylenol pm will help me sleep).

[Grey]

I think the trickiest part for me is people telling me to get a life.

I have a life.

Then books or people say do nice things, randomly.

I already do that. Maybe if I wasn't already doing what it sounds like so many don't it would help, but then again maybe she wouldn't love me like she does if I didn't do those things, either.


The problem isn't simply "I'm not having any sex," but dealing with it. I hurt. I DO feel alone. THAT IS NORMAL----understand that part first before giving advice or judging my situation.

The solution I hear the most is "get a life." Do things, hobbies, whatever it is just to try to forget. I can't forget, though. I had a life. I HAVE a life. So that doesn't help me. It makes me feel more helpless----ignore my wife more to do more of my hobbies and be social with more people without her?

My problem is patience. I hurt. I hurt badly. Understand that first before saying "stop thinking, start exercising."

[GoatGal]

Grey,

I hesitate to keep posting because we just keep going around and around.
But I feel your distress and so... it's like a siren call.

I feel like you keep missing the point with everyone here.

It's not about "getting a life" or "being OK with no sex"... it's more a mindset thing.
No one is suggesting you ignore the problem or live in a sexless marriage.

You have identified the problem as existing within your wife, who is perfectly happy, except that she suddenly doesn't want to have sex anymore at all... is that right?
(Or is it just a frequency thing?)


But if the above statement is true, the fact remains that you CANNOT CHANGE YOUR WIFE to be how you want or need her to be.

You can only change yourself. That is why we say "take the focus off fixing her" while also trying to see things from her perspective.

Talking with her is great if she'll talk openly with you about this---but jt must be framed in a way that doesn't pressure her, and it shouldn't be about you.

It should be more like: "Honey, you know I adore you and I need you to know you can talk to me about anything. Is there anything you want to talk about... because I'm feeling disconnected from you now... I worry that something might be bothering you and I want to help if I can".

Not those exact words, but you get what I mean.

If you get nowhere, she won't talk, well, then maybe give it a little more time.

Maybe she doesn't know herself. Maybe she does but doesn't want to hurt you or risk you leaving her. Maybe she's a Martian Goddess, darned if I know.

If more time goes by and she won't discuss it with you, and you can't live with it anymore, then you need to make decisions about the kind of relationship you need to have... and when you're ready, communicate that to her and see what happens at that point.

But I would advise patience at this point. Something has bound to come into the light.

Sometimes it's best to stop thinking about it so much and it becomes clearer.


Hang in there...

--GG

[Grey]

Grey,


You can only change yourself. That is why we say "take the focus off fixing her" while also trying to see things from her perspective.

From her perspective, sex isn’t important. What’s the big deal about sex, she HAD so much with so many others it’s like she’s “over it.” I didn’t exactly save myself for marriage either, but I certainly reserved myself a good bit and took my vows very seriously when I wrote them.

Talking with her is great if she'll talk openly with you about this---but it must be framed in a way that doesn't pressure her, and it shouldn't be about you.

It should be more like: "Honey, you know I adore you and I need you to know you can talk to me about anything. Is there anything you want to talk about... because I'm feeling disconnected from you now... I worry that something might be bothering you and I want to help if I can".

Not those exact words, but you get what I mean.

I pretty much have done exactly that. She only ever says nothing is wrong. To be honest, I think that makes sense. She knows I can handle criticism better than most because I’m an artist (I crave criticism in my creative life), but nothing is really wrong for her.

More to the point, it bothers her just that I asked. I don’t ask a lot, but it’s like once was too many. So I keep it in. I don’t ask.

If you get nowhere, she won't talk, well, then maybe give it a little more time.

Maybe she doesn't know herself. Maybe she does but doesn't want to hurt you or risk you leaving her. Maybe she's a Martian Goddess, darned if I know.

THIS IS THE PART I’M REALLY TRYING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF. I am being patient, I really am, but this HURT doesn’t just go away. Focusing on my life and my goals, hobbies, changing, new hobbies, exercising, it all helps….BUT AT SOME POINT I STILL HURT. It’s like I can be patient for months, but what difference would that make if I hurt? It still feels like lying----I literally can’t talk to my best friend about something very important to me. And it becomes resentment, I’m afraid, even if I’m aware of it and don’t want it to.


So…help. I’m sure other people have GAL’d or whatever, but they also HAVE to still feel these feelings of loneliness and abandonment from rejection. When they feel this way, what do THEY do to cope? I’d like to say if my wife was in counseling (either alone or with me) I could be much more patient, but she isn’t. She gave me a few names of counselors on her insurance to ask my therapist if she had any recommendations. She did, only my wife never did anything.

I don’t think she realizes how big of a problem it is for US, not just for me. But I also feel like IF SHE KNEW, SHE WOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I let her know, but I don’t think she understands that it’s real. She thinks it’s simply selfish. I don’t know what she thought about the guy she had sex with at a hockey game who treated her like garbage, but while I have all the patience I can muster, I am ANXIOUS going home now because I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO DO. I am HIDING this from the person I should be able to talk to. And the advice I get is wait a few more years from some people. It’s so hard, despite efforts to 100% stop thinking about it and become celibate.

I’m “hanging in there,” but every time I am in a meeting and all of a sudden I have an erection, or any time I can’t sleep well, or any time she kisses me the exact same way she kisses all her other male friends, I get anxious and afraid.

I appreciate your response despite me sounding like a broken record, but I come here to vent because I can’t do it at home. I go days being totally ok, then one day I FEEL ALONE and scared and anxious because I can’t make a random erection go away out of nowhere, for example

[MrBond]

"From her perspective, sex isn’t important."

Did she specifically say that? And if she did, why isn't it important to her?

"What’s the big deal about sex, she HAD so much with so many others it’s like she’s “over it.” I didn’t exactly save myself for marriage either, but I certainly reserved myself a good bit and took my vows very seriously when I wrote them. "

Again, did SHE say any of that? Sometimes it's hard to tell what she actually has told you and what you "assume".

"THIS IS THE PART I’M REALLY TRYING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF. I am being patient, I really am, but this HURT doesn’t just go away."

Yes it does. The problem is that all you do is focus on that "hurt". SHE is not the one hurting you. You're doing it to yourself. She's not physically harming you on purpose. But because YOU tie acceptance and self-worth together with sex, you hurt yourself.

"BUT AT SOME POINT I STILL HURT. It’s like I can be patient for months, but what difference would that make if I hurt? It still feels like lying----I literally can’t talk to my best friend about something very important to me. And it becomes resentment, I’m afraid, even if I’m aware of it and don’t want it to."

You're only hurting yourself. She's not "hurting" you. I don't think you grasp that despite your protestations of the contrary.

"So…help. I’m sure other people have GAL’d or whatever, but they also HAVE to still feel these feelings of loneliness and abandonment from rejection."

Sure, but they go away when you stop focussing on them. My W left me for 3 years (and of course no sex) and the hurt went away.

"When they feel this way, what do THEY do to cope? I’d like to say if my wife was in counseling (either alone or with me) I could be much more patient, but she isn’t."

If you're referring to the spouse that doesn't think sex is important, they don't "hurt" because they don't focus on sex. I don't think you're getting the point that not everyone is going to think or behave like you. The one who wants it least is the one who will get it the most.

"I don’t think she realizes how big of a problem it is for US, not just for me. "

That is not a fair assessment. It IS a big problem for YOU and not her. I don't know why you keep arguing that you don't have a problem with that. Have you ever asked her what her expectations are in the M? I think your communication skills in understand your W and explaining your needs in a compassionate way, need serious work.

[Grey]

You're only hurting yourself. She's not "hurting" you. I don't think you grasp that despite your protestations of the contrary.

That's not fair.

I don't focus on the hurt.

I hurt.

Staying in my chair for a few extra minutes because I have an erection I can't explain when another group is trying to start their meeting doesn't make me less anxious, and it isn't a result of me not thinking about sex, which I'm not.

Maybe "hurt" is the wrong word for you then, but I do feel alone, I do feel tense, I do feel unwanted, call it what you want just to get to the root; I don't feel good and I can't wish it away. If you can, that's great, and I'd love advice on how you do it and maybe I can even be celibate AND enjoy it (I know it sounds sarcastic, but wow, if I didn't ever want sex again it would actually be a good thing, particularly since she can't have kids and neither of us want kids).

Saying not to hurt doesn't work-----------it's like telling someone to eat broccoli. Sure, it's good for them, but if they don't like it and it tastes terrible they're not going to want to do it just because they should. You can't make someone like food and NO it's not wrong to want sex, and in fact it's to the contrary.

But when you say it's not a problem for our marriage, that's where I draw the line. I'm not happy and you say "just forget about it because it's that simple." If I wasn't meeting a need for my wife, say not spending any time with her or not helping with the house or the bills or the dogs, that would be a problem and you'd call me a jerk. And I'd be a jerk for not for not doing those things, but for not doing them once I knew I should have been doing them.

So when you ask again if I've ever asked what her expectations are, I have to again remind how much I changed explicitly because of asking her what she wanted-----she wanted more time, she wanted a car, she wanted to move out of my studio, she wanted me to take care of the lawn on my own, she wanted me to let her sleep past noon on weekends, etc. I adapted to all of those things BECAUSE I talked to her about what her expectations were and what she wanted. Some of it was hard to swallow. But I did it. Because I love her, not because I expect sex out of her if that's what you think. If it helps, the sex didn't disappear until she kinda ran out of things to ask me to change to make her happy, and, again, now when I ask her she says there's nothing she wants me to change, she's happy and it makes things worse the more I ask----she TELLS me not to ask because she says she will tell me if there's something she needs, which I believe because I've seen it.

Why did your wife leave you? After 3 years, I'm moving on. Judge me if you think that makes me a bad person, but you just said people have to realize people are different and have different needs. I am the person who wouldn’t stay in a relationship with someone who left me in between the Olympics.

But then again, we're not talking about me telling my wife anymore about my needs. I already said that. What I need help with is dealing with the hurt of FEELING rejected--------even if that's not what she's meaning to do, which I frankly know she isn't meaning to do, I still FEEL that pain.

You stopped hurting because your wife left you for longer than I've known my wife. I don't think that's healthy for either one of us, and yes, I think there's a better solution for me to DEAL with this occasional but real and emotionally harmful pain than for her to leave me for x years.

For example, I'm not afraid of much at all. I like performing in front of an audience, live. I go on TV a lot. I'm social. I race cars. I travel with a backpack with no reservations. I conquer MY fears. But I've never dealt with anything like this and I can't simply "conquer" it by pretending I can simply stop thinking about it altogether and become celibate before I feel bad about it again.

[claire7]

You know something? I felt similar to you for a long time. I felt like my needs were not being met. My husband said I was overreacting, too sensitive, everything was fine. He said he loved me and reminded me of all the things he did for me...and told me he didn't feel like I loved him enough. I felt I was being manipulated or that I was crazy. I felt so lonely and unloved. He refused to go to counseling together. He thought I just needed to go on my own. (Truth is, I did need to go on my own. ..but that is another layer to the story).

And then, one day, he left.

So, yeah, I know about having unmet needs and feeling hurt.

And you know what? If I had found this site earlier, people would have told me the same thing-- and maybe I would have reacted similarly to you.

But the reality is...the ONLY thing you have control over is yourself. You cannot change her. That doesn't mean she will never change.. and it doesn't mean that you have nothing to work on yourself.

Have you even read DR? One of the major points is that ONE person CAN change the dynamic of the relationship.

The problem you are having at work? Well, I don't know how common that is. But I will say that I have not been with someone for many months...and have found ways to release those needs.

You can either choose to be patient and work on yourself... or not.

Again.. what do you want us to tell you? If you really don't think she will ever change, then quit. If you want to work on your M, you have to figure out some of your stuff first. If I had done that, I might not be S today.

Can you have any patience?? No one is saying to live unhappily ever after! But folks do seem to be saying to take a breath, work on your listening and communication skills, and stop focusing on what you think is wrong so much! There are other issues in your M besides no sex. What role are you playing? Is it possible that your W is telling you everything is fine because she assumes you wouldn't really listen to her anyway? Can you focus on any of the good things about her (are there any?)

You may just find happiness and peace if you look inward.

[Grey]

I'll give you another example.

I'm not focusing on sex. Sex comes up. It shows up when friends are talking/joking about it, or when we're playing a game with a group of friends and a card comes up about sex, or when she's watching a movie about sex, or when there's a sex joke on TV, or even better, when a person on TV is upset their husband/wife doesn't have passionate ML with them. It's not me focusing on it, but it's inescapable, for BOTH of us by the way.

One of our good friends (he was in our wedding) somehow brought up he and his wife ML in the shrubs in front of the bushes at the Rio casino in Las Vegas. They seem to love telling that story (perhaps ironically they're struggling not to get a divorce but they still ML a lot). That led into the "most unique place you ever had sex" question. The friend's wife then said, "Oh, I know yours! When y'all did it on the inner tube going down the Nantahala River!"

My wife laughed, said, "no! That was with Paul!"

I'd heard of some of the guys she dated but I had never heard of Paul before.

Then she said the real answer was either in the stands at a hockey game or on a pontoon while her friends were riding rafts behind it. Fr the record, neither of those times were with me.

She went on to elaborate, laughing, and I just wanted to leave the room but instead I acted like nothing was wrong.

I didn't get mad or anything, but it hurt. I don't think I could have possibly stopped it from hurting. I wasn't "focusing on sex," and I didn't bring it up, but there it was like a smack in the face.

[GoatGal]

Grey,

What MrBond said was right on the money.

Just a bit of perspective here...

In my situation alone, I have discovered my husband of now almost 23 years (together almost 30) cheated on me, betrayed me, treated me terribly, and finally filed for divorce for reasons he is still unable to articulate.

Prior to that, he didn't touch me for almost two years... and then decides to give the affection that should have been mine to some fool who believed his lies.

I now live alone on a farm, where I have to take care of all the animals and property myself. He shows up. Sometimes.
Sometimes not.
I have senior hospice dogs, part of an endeavor that he and I created together, but now I'm stuck here medicating and cleaning up after them at all hours.
He gets to spend his "down-time" at a friends apartment, his own room, rent-free. There is nobody waking him up in the middle of the night, no roosters waking him at 4 AM.

I have chronic pain from old injuries, yet there are no days off, no breaks... I am ALONE. ALL DAY. EVERY DAY. ALL NIGHT. EVERY NIGHT. (Unless I make specific plans to get out of here and that's an additional burden.)

He allowed us to create a lifestyle where I became completely financially dependent, and now he holds that power over my head.

I could be earning more--but my studio is now filled with his remodeling crap, and it's so hard to get away for more paying gigs and workshops when I have so many chores and there is no one to help me.
How can I get out to play/DJ more when I have to feed the animals in the evening, and get up at the crack of dawn?

I am TRAPPED HERE.

If I didn't have the Internet, I think I might lose it... really I would.
There is no one to talk to except the animals. It's really crazy.

Couple this with thoughts of what my H might be doing with his "free time" and what new plot he's hatching against me... well....

Your Question: How do we deal with the hurt and the pain?

WE ACCEPT IT.
We can't change it.
We learn the skills to cope with it, and over time, it does get better.

That's what we've all been trying to tell you.

Yes. It hurts. You'll read a lot of stories filled with anguish and pain here. Deep pain. For years.
For some the healing is elusive.

It's a process, and we learn to be better and stronger from it.

Do I wish I had a magic potion that would make my H get his head out of his arse and stop acting like an idiot?
You betcha! But there is no such thing.
I can't "make" him do that any more than you can change your wife.

The only people who can make those changes are themselves.
If they want to. If it's important enough.
Period.

The pain I am going through is making me stronger.
I'm like a sword being forged in the fire, I am becoming more resilient, sharper.
I am wiser. I have relationship skills that surpass anything I've ever had.
So in a way, I'm grateful.
I am BETTER than I was before this awful reality was forced upon me, I really believe that.
And others can see it too.

I am LEARNING things I thought I already knew... and I am HUMBLED.
I see myself differently.
I see my H differently.
I see my life and my marriage differently.

Grey,
This is what I hope for you.
That no matter the outcome of your predicament, that you will be a better man for it.

Your wife married you for a reason. Now you're faced with a difficult situation.
How well you handle it depends on the skills you are able to learn and put to use.

You will like yourself more if you come through this stronger and wiser.
And I think your wife will respect and love you even more if you are able to adapt and grow as a result of this trial.

--------------

People here would not be posting to you unless they were trying to help.
They have better things to do with their time.
I know I do.

Perhaps this bumpy phase in your life is signaling a time for quiet reflection, and stopping the thoughts that are sending you into this negative spiral.

Things could be A LOT WORSE.
Not that that's any comfort, but you've got to see the big picture here.

You're not dying.
Your marriage is not crumbling.
You are not in a SSM--yet---and you may never be!
But you've got to handle this delicately... and try and let go of the outcome, at least for a while.

We're still talking a few weeks here. I know it feels like forever, but it's really a blip.

Surely there are other ways to get your needs for physical affection met in some fashion while having an intimate connection with your wife, even if it's not the "ideal" encounter?


Maybe something simple like taking a bath together and/or massage? Something that puts the focus on a physical connection, without the pressure of the "Big O"?

(Sometimes that's the gateway to bigger and better things, anyway. Ask any woman. )

Without going overboard, just spend some time connecting with her tenderly, physically, affectionately, without the sexual overtones.

Not in bed.
Not naked.
Not when you're feeling hurt and needing comfort from her.

Think of it as giving comfort to her---with ABSOLUTELY NO EXPECTATIONS.

And that means, you can't come back here and say:
"It didn't work. She still didn't want to have sex with me!"

It is not to "get her" to "want to" have sex.
It's to get her to feel CLOSER to you PHYSICALLY and EMOTIONALLY.

It's to increase the tenderness, and create an environment of openness and safety for HER.

Again. Expectations that this will "work" on her will defeat the entire purpose.

And I know you do a lot of wonderful things for her that we wish our H's would do for us.
Perhaps you do too much?

What does your W like to do for you?

Have you read the Five Love Languages?
It helped me understand a lot about why my H didn't feel I appreciated him, and I didn't feel that he understood me either.

I'm not going out on too much of a limb when I say I think your top "Love Language" is PHYSICAL TOUCH! Hahaha!
(Mine too. Kind of a problem right now when the only "touch" I get is getting stuck in the ribs with a goat horn or jumped on by a dog in my sleep.)





---GG

[Grey]

...the ONLY thing you have control over is yourself. You cannot change her. That doesn't mean she will never change.. and it doesn't mean that you have nothing to work on yourself.

Have you even read DR? One of the major points is that ONE person CAN change the dynamic of the relationship.

The problem you are having at work? Well, I don't know how common that is. But I will say that I have not been with someone for many months...and have found ways to release those needs.

You can either choose to be patient and work on yourself... or not.

Again.. what do you want us to tell you? If you really don't think she will ever change, then quit. If you want to work on your M, you have to figure out some of your stuff first. If I had done that, I might not be S today.

Can you have any patience?? No one is saying to live unhappily ever after! But folks do seem to be saying to take a breath, work on your listening and communication skills, and stop focusing on what you think is wrong so much! There are other issues in your M besides no sex. What role are you playing? Is it possible that your W is telling you everything is fine because she assumes you wouldn't really listen to her anyway? Can you focus on any of the good things about her (are there any?)

You may just find happiness and peace if you look inward.

Two things--------you’re right, I can only change me. I did change me to be a better husband because of the things my wife asked for.

And yes, I’ve read DB. I feel like I shot myself in the foot a bit------DB mainly talks about making deliberate change, but nearly all of the suggestions I was already doing. For example, “if your wife isn’t showing you enough affection, why not try leaving her a random romantic note or surprising her with flowers? You’ll be surprised how much your wife wants you now!” I kinda already do the things the book suggests BECAUSE I was already aware how much she liked them and they made her feel loved.

I choose to be patient. I do! I feel like I’m being attacked when people say I’m not patient and not working on myself--------I’m being as patient as I can and I’m doing better than I thought possible with patience… and I still have these feelings, however rare they are, that I’m afraid when they happen and can’t be stopped will turn into bad things for us down the road, such as resentment.

The thing is, everyone says they understand. Then the next thing they say is their partner left.

Is it possible that your W is telling you everything is fine because she assumes you wouldn't really listen to her anyway

Maybe. I doubt it, sincerely. I’m not trying to pass the buck, but I sincerely believe she believes I would listen. For the sake of the next question, please assume that part is true; I think it makes more sense if she doesn’t even know what isn’t fine. For example, if she wants me to make more money, she feels selfish saying that, so she doesn’t or maybe she doesn’t even recognize that’s what she truly wants from me now. I’d give her every penny so she didn’t have to work anymore, and I’ve told her that, too.
Or maybe she doesn’t know what she wants from me, but therapy could help. Only she’s not in therapy and hasn’t made any real steps towards any.

Maybe it’s her hormones, right? But her doctor isn’t going to help her with hormones to get her libido back if she doesn’t tell her doctor about it, right? After all, that’s only important to me, right? I’m the selfish one, right? Asking her to do anything to want something I need makes me a jerk because my need is sex-----any other need and everyone seems to agree, but sex is still a “selfish” issue rather than a love and marriage issue.

You may just find happiness and peace if you look inward.

I was happy and at peace before I met my wife. I’m looking inward and I’m afraid of the answer now to finding peace because I’m not like people who can go years without peace. Life is simply too short. I have a friend, his kid died last weekend, 23 years old, single-car crash, wasn’t drinking. If I stay like this for 2 years and then die that way, I’d consider that time a waste. It probably just sounds like I’m not being patient at all, but again, the real question is how to deal with that patience without pretending I can just force myself to want to be celibate and quickly.

[GoatGal]

And Grey--PLEASE---some guys jump in here to help because I just can't go there--- some of the things you alluded to about your physical....um.. "discomfort" with your situation, lead me to believe you may have ethical/moral/religious? objections to dealing with "things" in a more practical way.

(If you know what I mean.)

I guess I don't understand about that.
Is it because now you're married and you think that is something reserved for your W?

Just wondering...

--GG

[Grey]

Your marriage is not crumbling.
You are not in a SSM--yet---and you may never be!

Yes, my marriage is in danger. Absolutely. Every marriage is, it sounds like, at one point or another.

And I am in a SSM by definition, which you can read here for free.

I couldn't do what you're doing. Life is to short to stay unhappy for so many years simply because someone married someone else. Sometimes divorce actually is better. I'm not the one to tell you that, but I wouldn't do what you're doing, it sounds too damaging for too long in your life, and with no real solution in sight. I understand you're getting stronger, but maybe you'd be even moreso after divorce? Nobody should be trapped by anyone for so long.

[GoatGal]

PS: Claire is right ^^^

One thing that jumps out again is that it really pushes your buttons when your W jokes about all the encounters she had before you, and since you're feeling neglected, this would bother anybody.

At the very least, you could tell her that hearing about her previous lovers upsets you and you wish she would refrain from discussing them around you.

Not to criticize her, just to state a boundary of yours.

I don't think any of us would like to have our spouse's previous sexual adventures paraded in front of our faces, especially if we weren't getting any of that.

[Grey]

And Grey--PLEASE---some guys jump in here to help because I just can't go there--- some of the things you alluded to about your physical....um.. "discomfort" with your situation, lead me to believe you may have ethical/moral/religious? objections to dealing with "things" in a more practical way.

(If you know what I mean.)

I guess I don't understand about that.
Is it because now you're married and you think that is something reserved for your W?

Just wondering...

--GG

If you're talking about masturbation, yes, I do that. Pretty much every guy does, including happily married guys with great sex lives.


But one thing I never had before was random erections or wet dreams. It's embarassing, even dangerous when it comes to work.

But it also doesn't address the "need." It's not an itch to scratch, it's a physical connection that I promised never to share with anyone else. It's the ultimate expression of love. I could go on but DB explains a lot of that and I have always believed that part is true.

[GoatGal]

Grey,

Right now your marriage is only in danger because it sounds like you're thinking about why you might have to end it.

You can't go on averages and ratios, no matter what the books say.

If you don't have sex for three months because something occurs (illness, argument, whatever), but then have it three times a week for the rest of the year, it's not a SSM.

You're looking at the glass as half full.

Think of all the wonderful things you DO have!

---GG

[MrBond]

"You stopped hurting because your wife left you for longer than I've known my wife."

Um no. I stopped hurting because I realized that it wasn't about me. It was about her. The internal struggles she had were hers to deal with.

And let's re-iterate again. You DO NOT have a SSM. You have a M where your W has a health issue and is trying to deal with it. You keep insisting that you're not all about sex, but that's all you talk about.

No one said you had to permanently live like this, but you seem to make alot of assumptions of what people are telling you. Haven't you noticed that for some reason, the majority of posters to you are in agreement, yet you are the only one who insists on arguing back? Maybe you're the one who's not "getting it".

You hurt because you get validation through sex. We all get it. We all understand. But for some reason you repeat this again and again as if you think we don't. It doesn't matter how loud or long your repeat this, we understand. Now it's up to you on what to do from this point on. You've had both wonderful perspectives from women AND men and argue with all of them.

If you really want help with this, then try seeing from our POV. If you only want to hear the sound of your own voice, then a diary would be better. WE are trying to help you. We've taken time and effort to help you which you don't seem to want despite constantly asking.

[Grey]

"You stopped hurting because your wife left you for longer than I've known my wife."

Um no. I stopped hurting because I realized that it wasn't about me. It was about her. The internal struggles she had were hers to deal with.

And let's re-iterate again. You DO NOT have a SSM. You have a M where your W has a health issue and is trying to deal with it. You keep insisting that you're not all about sex, but that's all you talk about.

No one said you had to permanently live like this, but you seem to make alot of assumptions of what people are telling you. Haven't you noticed that for some reason, the majority of posters to you are in agreement, yet you are the only one who insists on arguing back? Maybe you're the one who's not "getting it".

You hurt because you get validation through sex. We all get it. We all understand. But for some reason you repeat this again and again as if you think we don't. It doesn't matter how loud or long your repeat this, we understand. Now it's up to you on what to do from this point on. You've had both wonderful perspectives from women AND men and argue with all of them.

If you really want help with this, then try seeing from our POV. If you only want to hear the sound of your own voice, then a diary would be better. WE are trying to help you. We've taken time and effort to help you which you don't seem to want despite constantly asking.

You are misinterpreting a lot, and leaving out some of the most important parts, particularly therapy.

I have listened. And I've followed a lot of advice.

But I'm following more advice now instead from Michele's books and my own therapist. The things you say in disagreement about me simply aren't true in the first place so I don't know why I continue to try to change your mind.

As for my wife ever talking about past relationships and past sexual experiences, that part doesn't really bother me in and of itself----it's the combination othem getting it and her giving ultimatums about what she did with them and would never do again, all while our physical relationship is gone.

I don't know what you expect me to talk about here then. I didn't come here to talk about how good my life is, and it is good. Does that not make sense?

I also didn't realize there was a time frame on a SSM. Michele certainly didn't mention that, and I'm also sure any SSM that lasted for years and years started at some point in the first few months.

I don't think this last part will get through, but it's inherently the most important part. My wife and I are good. I'm struggling, yes. I can't turn it off, and expecting it to last for months or years wouldn't help anybody change how they feel about it in the present. But we're talking more, working more closely together on things, and I've changed a lot, in particular with the dogs, and she likes it.I AM being patient, even when I occasionally feel rejected.

So for now, I'm focusing on my therapy. I'm getting better sleep thanks to these new habits, and that helps a lot, despite one of the puppies being sick and waking us up twice this week in the middle of the night. So when I say it's not all doom and gloom just because 3 years IS too long for me to have no progress, also know that it doesn't look like it's going to be that way either because of the changes I've made and because of my wife at least getting the opportunity from me to know what's bugging me so much from time to time.

[GoatGal]

Grey,

It's funny that you didn't pick up on it, but in one of my last posts to you, there was an empathy test.

How do you think you did?

I know you don't know me, but we have been writing back and forth for weeks now.
Not a peep from you about how tough things are for me, it's just right back to you. I almost feel like you didn't read it because it wasn't about YOU.

And, off the top of my head, I can't recall you ever thanking anyone here for offering their time to help you.
The responses from you have pretty much been that we don't know what we're talking about it, while you justify why you have the right to see the situation the way you do and choose to feel so hurt by it.
It is extremely ego-centric.

The fact is, your situation is a relatively mild one in the big picture and there are so many positives, yet you don't see them or don't value them.

There is definitely a disconnect here.

As some vets have said, the way you come across here is indicative of your style of communication off this forum.


So probably you communicate in much the same way with your wife.

It's not a style that's going to do you a lot of good long term.

Just food for thought. No need to defend yourself. It is what it is.

Did you ever say why you've been in therapy? What are the issues that led you there? Just curious.

--GG

PS: What you focus on INCREASES, what you ignore, DIMINISHES.

[Grey]

I've thanked a bunch of people, many separate times, including in individual posts.


You asked why I'm in therapy; I'm in therapy because I like it, frankly. It was great for me after med school, then I moved out of state. I doubt I'll ever stop therapy---it's a fantastic tool. I've said it before and I'll say it again, not everybody needs therapy, but every one of us can benefit from it.

I don't mean to make it sound like I don't care about you or anyone else just because I don't ask a lot of questions. But this is my first experience with forums. I think the most frustrating part is I'm not coming across right and the format isn't exactly the most effective way of communicating, let alone giving life-changing advice.

But to say I don't value the positives is inaccurate. It's grossly inaccurate, actually. I'm not offended, I just really don't think this forum (or any forum, for that matter, albeit I'm inexperienced) is effective. For one, it's broken up; you can't read everything about the situation even in one thread. Second, people forget things, or maybe don't read them, maybe misinterpret them outright, or maybe I don't write them accurately enough. Still, me forgetting the positives in reality seems to be less accurate than others forgetting the positives I've written about, particularly therapy and changes as a direct result of talking with my wife.

I'll say it again---------I appreciate your help. I sincerely do. But no matter how good I do, nobody here will ever really know. I don't see a lot of success stories, and yet I feel like I'm having more success than most, and I'm grateful I found these books and some advice and therapy relatively quickly.

For what it's worth, I can't imagine what I would have been like since finding this forum if I hadn't found it. Hearing much worse stories DOES help put things into perspective (even if it doesn't completely eliminate my own problems immediately), and venting here is a good outlet----just TALKING about it is theraputic. I wish it had more to do with people directly trained by Michele and her research, but I learned the hard way.

[GoatGal]

My point is, you always have a "reason" why you respond the way you do.

It comes across as a lot of self-defense of your initial position and not a lot of movement away from that.


It's your call whether you want to make some changes in yourself, for yourself, or keep beating your head against the wall.

[labug]

I just really don't think this forum (or any forum, for that matter, albeit I'm inexperienced) is effective.

It isn't effective for you.

Others have a different experience.

If you're looking for a 100% no fail fix, you won't find that anywhere.

Do you know the answer you want?

[Grey]

My point is, you always have a "reason" why you respond the way you do.

It comes across as a lot of self-defense of your initial position and not a lot of movement away from that.


It's your call whether you want to make some changes in yourself, for yourself, or keep beating your head against the wall.

Same problem though, right?

Like saying I haven't thanked anyone (I have), saying I need to work on myself (I am, with examples), and contradicting other things I've said. It's hard to argue. Things get lost in translation, maybe.

[Grey]

K, I didn't mean completely ineffective, but still, I thought it would be more like getting advice on how to follow the research methods from Michele's years of experience and book-writing.

I'm spending the weekend of the holiday in town with my wife. Neither one of us can wait. I promise not to bring up sex or focus on me in any way. We're going to have fun.

[stumps]

If your wife suffered an accident or debilitating illness that precluded her ability to have sex or engage in sexual activity even if she wanted to, would you stay with her?

[MrBond]

"You are misinterpreting a lot, and leaving out some of the most important parts, particularly therapy."

What EXACTLY did I misinterpret? I didn't even mention therapy. I just noticed you like to argue alot.

"I have listened. And I've followed a lot of advice."

Again, I didn't say you didn't listen. I said you argue alot. You are the one who doesn't seem to be capable of understanding what another person is telling you.

"But I'm following more advice now instead from Michele's books and my own therapist. The things you say in disagreement about me simply aren't true in the first place so I don't know why I continue to try to change your mind."

I didn't say anything about your character or whatever assumptions you have made about what you think I think. I (and others) have just mentioned that you tend to argue back alot.

"As for my wife ever talking about past relationships and past sexual experiences, that part doesn't really bother me in and of itself"

I never even brought that up.

"I don't know what you expect me to talk about here then. I didn't come here to talk about how good my life is, and it is good. Does that not make sense?"

You don't understand. Try to listen. The good in your life is intertwined with the bad. The positive interactions that you have with your W is important to bring up because whatever you did to bring out that positive response may be increased to bring up more positive interactions leading to sex. If all you do is gripe about what she doesn't do for you, you're missing the point of Michele's teachings. Think and talk about what she DOES do for you.

"I also didn't realize there was a time frame on a SSM. Michele certainly didn't mention that, and I'm also sure any SSM that lasted for years and years started at some point in the first few months."

Didn't you say that the last time you had sex with your W was about a month ago? That's not an SSM. And again, you're missing the point. You are the one who constantly brings up the fact that you feel invalidated, unloved, etc. from your W because she doesn't want to have sex with you right now. And I bring up the "right now" because you don't seem to be getting that. "Right now" your W is going through a health issue. That's HER problem which you have to allow her to get through in the way she wants to. You can encourage her to get her, but you can't tie a leash around her and force her to get treatment. That's what everyone is trying to get across to you. But you're too stubborn to see that. You come across as a little boy who can't get an ice cream cone even though you're offered everything else. You just want THAT ice cream cone and nothing else is good enough for you. And btw, yes is is how you come across. You keep saying how your W satisfies your other needs, your M is good, etc. But you only concentrate on that ice cream cone and if you can't have it right now you're going to bail.

We ALL get the fact that aside from the sex, your M is good. But YOU are the one who puts so much emphasis on sex that you see it as a deal breaker for you. Give it some time and patience. If you don't learn how to validate the opinions of people on these boards, you're not going to be able to validate your W's thoughts and feelings which is what she needs right now.

I don't think this last part will get through, but it's inherently the most important part. My wife and I are good."

[Grey]

If your wife suffered an accident or debilitating illness that precluded her ability to have sex or engage in sexual activity even if she wanted to, would you stay with her?

Yep.

That's not what this is about, but yes, still.

[Grey]

And what's this health issue, anyway? You've convinced yourself she's dying or something?

Yes, she's had cancer 5 years ago, and she has diabetes. I don't get it. It all sounds like excuses but they're so misplaced I can't really get upset at that. Like, it was more than a month before the first time I posted here, and that was May, for example.

Let's just not argue anymore. I can't imagine what you're going through and I won't have to find out because of what I know now. If nothing else, that's good advice I'm following from you and you can take it to heart.

My wife has definitely noticed the changes in me (exercise, dogs, training, playing more music, therapy, meditation, etc.) and they've been consistent, which I think is the most important part any time anyone makes changes. I'm looking forward to this weekend, and we're going to spend a lot of time together. I can't wait.

[MrBond]

"My wife has definitely noticed the changes in me (exercise, dogs, training, playing more music, therapy, meditation, etc.) and they've been consistent, which I think is the most important part any time anyone makes changes."

While those changes are great, they aren't the crux of your problem. The problem lies within your W and the struggle she's going through. You can change all you want, but it doesn't get down to the root of the why your W isn't "into it" right now. Give her time.

[stumps]

If your wife suffered an accident or debilitating illness that precluded her ability to have sex or engage in sexual activity even if she wanted to, would you stay with her?

Yep.

That's not what this is about, but yes, still.

It might not be what this is about... but I think your situation would be well-served if that's how you conceptualized it.

[Grey]

If your wife suffered an accident or debilitating illness that precluded her ability to have sex or engage in sexual activity even if she wanted to, would you stay with her?

Yep.

That's not what this is about, but yes, still.

It might not be what this is about... but I think your situation would be well-served if that's how you conceptualized it.

It still sounds strange. After all, my wife doesn’t have that problem.

And if she had a problem, wouldn’t it only make sense for me to help her fix it?

For example, if she broke her leg, I’d take her to physical therapy, right? Or if she couldn’t walk, I’d push her wheelchair any time I could. But if she has a problem with low libido, hands off? I understand what you’re trying to say, I still only want us both to be happy.

[GoatGal]

Ow-Vey! Grey!!!

All this above ^^^^^^.

This is what we mean about missing the point.

I'd write more but I'd be repeating myself.

I think it's like leading a horse to water.

You're only going to drink when you're really, really thirsty.

Your Pal,
---GG

[Grey]

Ow-Vey! Grey!!!

All this above ^^^^^^.

This is what we mean about missing the point.

I'd write more but I'd be repeating myself.

I think it's like leading a horse to water.

You're only going to drink when you're really, really thirsty.

Your Pal,
---GG

Not sure which part.

It's funny, nobody thought to ask. But yes, we had a great weekend. I'm working on me, not asking about sex, I don't know what anyone else wants from me now---it's like no matter what I'm doing it wrong, so I'm going to continue to stick with therapy instead. I don't get it?

[GoatGal]

Grey,

It's the "IF" part.
IF she was physically unable to have the type of sexual relationship you desire, would you stay with her?

You answered "yes". Good answer!

What if it's not a "physical inability"? What if it's just her?
What then?

Again, you're still focused on "helping" her "fix it".
1. You can't fix this for another person.
2. The solution is to change your thinking and perceptions about the problem.
This seems to be where you're getting stuck.

As for "fixing it"...
Who is that for, exactly?

Is she happy with the way things are?

If she is, why should she "fix" anything?

Just food for thought.

--GG

[Grey]

Grey,

It's the "IF" part.
IF she was physically unable to have the type of sexual relationship you desire, would you stay with her?

You answered "yes". Good answer!

What if it's not a "physical inability"? What if it's just her?
What then?

Again, you're still focused on "helping" her "fix it".
1. You can't fix this for another person.
2. The solution is to change your thinking and perceptions about the problem.
This seems to be where you're getting stuck.

As for "fixing it"...
Who is that for, exactly?

Is she happy with the way things are?

If she is, why should she "fix" anything?

Just food for thought.

--GG

I don’t think I’m stuck, even if I was before. I can’t seem to convince anyone of that, so I’m not going to argue about that anymore AND I’m going to continue therapy.

I’m not focused on helping her fix it----I just wouldn’t leave her stranded with ANY health problem. I don’t get it. Don’t put it that way. It’s like I can’t be seen as anything other than a sex maniac and can’t have an honest conversation about it.

For example, if she has migraines, would I be ok with her taking prescription medicine if it took away the pain?

But if she has low libido and a pill can help that, now I’m a jerk for encouraging it? For the record, I haven’t encouraged any pills for her libido, but the point is she’s my PARTNER----no matter what problem she has I’ll help her face it.

And yes, she’s happy with the way things are.

But isn’t the fundamental point of all of Michele’s books I’ve read that spouses have different needs and it’s up to both sides to compromise or face consequences?

So you’re exactly right----why should she “fix” anything for herself? She shouldn’t.

Why should she “fix” anything for her husband? Because of love. It’s the same way I’ve “fixed” things for her, things I was happy not doing, right? I don’t understand the difference except that I changed. Now I’m adapting better to her not “fixing” me not being as happy as she is with our life together (despite both of us, including me, being happy with it), but the shoe is only on one foot, right?

Again, say for example I went blind. I can’t drive. She was happy not driving me everywhere, right? I could get someone else to drive me everywhere, couldn’t I? Why would I want my wife to drive me anywhere, and why might she want to drive me anywhere? I say love. You’re saying I need to love a sexless marriage, or wait until everyone agrees it’s officially sexless, then love it?

Still, I don’t bring it up, I don’t talk to her about it, I don’t pressure her, I don’t take it personally when she’s tired, I meditate, I do all my other stuff including therapy, I work on the art show for September and I have a great time with my wife, including the entire 4th of July weekend. Tonight we’re having guests for dinner and I’m cooking-----lobster, clams and scallops----and I don’t expect (nor did I ever) anything for it.

[MrBond]

I notice you didn't have a counter-point to my previous posts.

"And if she had a problem, wouldn’t it only make sense for me to help her fix it?"

This sums it all up. This is not how people work. It's not your job to help her "fix" what's wrong with her if she doesn't want it or if she doesn't think she's "broken" in the first place.

"But isn’t the fundamental point of all of Michele’s books I’ve read that spouses have different needs and it’s up to both sides to compromise or face consequences? "

No that is not the fundamental point of her books. And besides, I thought you only read SSM. What you're describing is an adult-child relationship.

"Why should she “fix” anything for her husband? Because of love."

Yet what if there was something she said you needed fixing, but you didn't see there's anything wrong? That's the whole point.

"You’re saying I need to love a sexless marriage, or wait until everyone agrees it’s officially sexless, then love it? "

You still don't get it. NO one said you had to do that. We've all been telling you that right now, your W is sick and just needs some patience from you. Period.

You keep insisting that your M is not about the sex, yet you constantly bring it up. Again, I don't see why you're arguing the point because everyone is basically saying the same thing.

[GoatGal]

My Dear Grey,

Here's the deal.

I feel like we're are all on one side of a thick plexiglass wall, yelling and waving our arms trying to communicate with you, but none of it is getting through to your side.

I don't know why that is, but I think almost everyone here would agree with me.

Maybe share these exchanges with your therapist, if you haven't already.
Maybe he/she can shed some light on it for you.

Glad you had a nice weekend on the 4th, it was good to see you get away from this board a bit.

Meanwhile, dinner sounds great! Lobster, clams, AND scallops?

What time do we eat?

--GG

[Grey]

None of it is getting through?

I don't get it. Really? Nobody is hearing the good things I've done, plus nobody thinks sex is important ENOUGH to take seriously.

Bond, you focus too much on the words and not enough on what they mean. I said "fix" and that's another no-no word for you it sounds like. I'm sorry. I never know when that's going to happen, but I do try to avoid it when I can.

Then you said my wife is sick? Again? She has diabetes, not cholera.

If you don't want to help with my problem, don't get mad at me following advice from the creator of the site we're writing on when it comes to talking about people's needs. I haven't mentioned anything about wanting it, you're inferring it but all I've been talking about is essentially how to talk about it here instead, and that's a separate problem. Yes, I bring up sex as the problem BECAUSE that's the problem--------my wife isn't blind, or dying, or unable to walk or any other hypothetical situation I've been asked about whether or not I would care for her.

Instead, my wife does have problems AND I help her deal with them. It's like you missed the part where I didn't bring up sex or worry about it the entire weekend we enjoyed together too, know what I mean?

GG, you go out to FEEL wanted, even if you don't think you do anything that crosses any boundaries yet. And that's good! I don't feel that though, and itsn't that what I've repeated is the trick? Like, if my wife couldn't have sex with me being different from her not WANTING to, which wasn't the question but that's the difference isn't it? You weren't having sex with those guys who helped make your weekend fun and exciting, right? I'm with you on that one---I think I'd much rather be wanted but without sex than have unwanted sex.

[claire7]

Grey, I think a little bit of humility might go a long way. If I was your wife I would probably stop trying to communicate my needs to you because I haven't once heard you say,"hmmm, I didn't realize I was coming across that way. I don't see it the same way/that wasn't my intention, but I will try to understand your perspective."

You remind me of my H. I would tell him I felt some need wasn't being met-- and instead of understanding I was met with defensiveness: "how can you say that; look at all the things I do to show you I love you; you are too sensitive; it pisses me off when you tell me that because I am trying so hard." It really made me question my version of reality and wonder if I was crazy or being manipulated.

Why are you working so hard to prove yourself to us? You are probably the most defensive poster I have seen on here. No one is out to get you yet you think that is the case.

Bottom line-- (and a question I have asked you at least twice with no answer): if you are not here to work on yourself, what are you hoping to get out of this? You are all you can control. Do you want permission to leave? You have mine-- I have no vested interest in saving your M or not. But if you want to be married to your W, feedback on YOU is what we can give you. It has helped me a lot. More than anything. I'm sorry you are not having the same kind of experience.

Good luck to you.

[Grey]

I'm working so hard to prove myself to you because the advice you gave is the advice I took. It's not that I care so much as I don't think we can actually have a conversation about it when we're not on the same page about understanding the facts regarding what's going on.

" if you are not here to work on yourself, what are you hoping to get out of this?"


See?

It's like the literal LIST of things I've mentioned I've changed haven't happened, including, of all things, therapy.

You're projecting onto me. Maybe I'm terrible at communicating. I WISH you could talk to my wife. I could tell you a billion times I haven't brought up sex or pressured her or anything at all having to do with sex in so long, but it doesn't matter-----you still think I don't listen to my wife. That part really bugs me.

It's not that it bugs me because I'm "not working on myself" or it's only me I can control, but because it's so inaccurate. I feel like we're really not on the same page with who I am or how I treat my wife but BECAUSE I have to explain and defend it nobody hears me? It's just so strange. Everyone seems to think they know my wife better than I do and know me better than I'm willing to admit, but saying my wife is sick and I don't listen to her or ask about her needs, it's just, I dunno? How did we get to this point at all? It's not that I didn't write it, but is it all being deduced from the way I'm talking here instead?

It's not that I think anyone is out to get my explicitly--------I think people aren't REALLY listening. They don't believe me. They think I'm twisting it, or in many cases simply not reading or forgettting what I've written.


For example, you say I haven't changed because of what people say here. For one, I have (really? not once?), but the problem for me is it's not a two-way street. Have you tried to understand that I might actually be doing things right and listening and said the same thing about ","hmmm, I didn't realize I was coming across that way. I don't see it the same way/that wasn't my intention, but I will try to understand your perspective."?

I don't MEAN to be defensive, and just for the record again I'll say THANK YOU for talking, I do appreciate it, but it's like I wish I could start from square one because the information isn't getting across. I think people want me to write about everything else I do JUST so they'll be able to listen to the other parts. If I don't write about what I did this weekend people can't believe I didn't think about sex or had a good time with my wife, nevermind if she'd say the same thing (she would).

My wife DOES feel comfortable communicating her needs to me! I promise! Don't take my word for it though-----but if you assume it's true or if you can believe that's exactly what she would say (I've given specific examples here plenty), but why not me? I don't get the argument that I don't listen to my wife's needs but she SHOULDN'T listen to mine because they're mine and they're selfish rather than potentially mutually beneficial, regardless of me shutting up about it. Her needs ARE selfish sometimes, but I feel like here I'm being told I first don't meet them AND I'm selfish for having a need of my own (again, regardless of not bringing it up, not having it met, and still being good to my wife).

I don't think people believe we're truly happy.

That's so crazy to me. We're VERY happy, especially her.

If I had a dollar for every person that said or commented on us being their favorite couple I'd buy Michele a plane to meet every married couple on the eastern seaboard. That doesn't mean we can't be happier, or that one day I wouldn't like to have a sex life again. I dunno. Maybe I shot myself in the foot and gave everyone the wrong idea about us. It's too bad you can't talk to my wife. You'd love her. And she's happy.

[GoatGal]

Grey,

You're getting really wound up again...slow down a little, OK?


You say you're very happy.
She's happy. You're happy.
So what is the problem?

You're reacting in a very odd way... that is not a criticism, just an observation.
It concerns me.

Just a few points I'd like to make.

1. You are one person saying all of us don't understand what you're saying.
OK. Maybe that's true. What is it that you think we're missing here? And if you read back, do you see that in fact, we really DID miss this?


2. Most of us have tried to advise, explain, listen, reflect, redirect, and, in general, tried to help you. For no personal gain. That doesn't seem to be appreciated, at least not clearly by your words.

3. Most of your responses have been focused on defending your position, rather than trying to change your perspective. It's like you already have all the answers.

4. So far--(and yes, it's possible that I might have missed it)--I have not heard you say:

"Gee, that's interesting. Let me try that."

"I never thought about it that way."

"I'll try that and get back to you."


5. Basically what I'm saying is: YOU HAVE NOT BEEN VALIDATING US in our efforts to help you.

6. You have been talking over us, getting louder and louder to get your point across. You keep saying you're right to think/feel/do this or that.
Maybe you are.
But how is it working for you?

7. You are very self-focused, and I might add, hyper-focused on this issue.
If your marriage is great, you're both happy, and technically, you do NOT (yet) have a SSM, why all the discussion?

8. Mostly when we make a suggestion or comment, you spend a lot of energy explaining why we are wrong. It feels like you are trivializing our input.

The fact is--you came here for support and insight. And we've been trying to give that to you.

Yet it's like beating our heads against the wall.


No doubt you feel the same.

The question is: HOW CAN WE CHANGE THAT?

Do you have a suggestion how we can communicate better?

I, for one, would be willing to try that.


And I'm going out on a limb here, but I have to revert back to the Asperger's discussion.
I really hear that now, more than ever.
Take it or leave it.

It explains a LOT of why we keep getting our signals crossed.

-----------

Now before you go firing off some response defending yourself, maybe take the time to really think through and respond to what I stated above, point by point.

There is no need to defend yourself. I am not criticism or blaming you, just asking for some explanations.



That would be a start.

---GG

[Maybell]

Grey I haven't commented on your sitch because I have no idea what you're asking for. I have been following it.

I feel like you're on your third thread of saying "I REALLY need a lot more sex and here's why."

I have not been able to identify any other conversation of substance in three threads of loooong posts. No other train of thought except "we're REALLY happy but I need a LOT more sex."

Yet you are heavy on a forum called DIVORCE busting.

So yes, all we know of you is what you write here.

If my marriage were as happy as you claim yours is I would never even have heard of divorce busting.

So what are you hoping people will give you? Love Potion No. Nine doesn't exist or we'd all be fighting over it. What would it look like to you to see this problem solved?

[MrBond]

"None of it is getting through?

I don't get it. Really? Nobody is hearing the good things I've done, plus nobody thinks sex is important ENOUGH to take seriously."

Sigh. Calm down. EVERYONE is hearing about the good things you've done. You go out of your way to make a point of it. Those are great. AND no one said that your sex issue shouldn't be taken seriously.

But what you don't seem to get is that it doesn't seem like you have a sex problem. Your W is going through something and you put most of your effort on the sex even though the rest of your relationship seems to be going great.

"Bond, you focus too much on the words and not enough on what they mean."

Go back and repeat that to yourself. I and others ALL know what you mean. I don't know why you insist that we don't.

"I said "fix" and that's another no-no word for you it sounds like. I'm sorry. I never know when that's going to happen, but I do try to avoid it when I can. "

I didn't say "fix" was a no-no word. But if you've learned anything about how people and especially women work, it's that they don't want to be "fixed". Just validated and heard.

Being a "fixer" is usually a male trait. We see a problem, we try to offer solutions and fix it. That's now how women work. Your W would probably say the same thing as well as the women here.

"Then you said my wife is sick? Again? She has diabetes, not cholera."

YOU were the one who said she had cancer and other health related issues that were a result of medications she was taking. You seem to be minimizing the fact that it seems to be a big thing for her. You don't think it's a big deal, so don't think that it should be a big deal for her.

"If you don't want to help with my problem, don't get mad at me following advice from the creator of the site we're writing on when it comes to talking about people's needs."

That's funny. You know I've been helping people on this site for a very long time in line with what Michele's principles are. I don't think a newb like you should be preaching to the choir.

"Instead, my wife does have problems AND I help her deal with them. It's like you missed the part where I didn't bring up sex or worry about it the entire weekend we enjoyed together too, know what I mean? "

No I didn't miss that. But see, you're expecting to be applauded and praised for not bringing up sex to her for one weekend. It seems like you're "expecting" your W to give you something back in exchange for what you did for her. You don't have anything to prove to us, just prove it to yourself and your W.

Have you noticed how many women have been trying to help you and give you their perspective? That's gold. They are your W and are giving you valuable insight. Yet you insist that they are not seeing your POV. They don't need to. They are seeing things through your W's POV and right now, that's all that matters.

You've got two ears and one mouth so you can listen more than you talk. Try it out for a change.

[Grey]

I want you to do me a favor. Go back and re-read my posts. I feel like a lot was missed. You're projecting onto me is what it feels like, especially when the Aspergers part comes up or you say I'm like your husband, who from what I've read really doesn't sound like me at all and really sounds mean to be honest.

When people say things that ARE wrong though, I say so. Like my wife is sick, comparing her diabetes to a terminal illness.

Maybe it's not really possible to get people to understand US in a forum setting, and maybe it's just my fault anyway for not being able to write enough to make people understand the situation better. It's like people can't understand how a couple can be perfectly happy only one of them just wants to have sex once in a while.

And again with the part about not being in a sex-starved marriage.

I'm not sure how bad our marriage has to be before anyone will agree it's sex-starved, or how long it has to be, or how selfish I sound just for talking about it.

You're asking me to say things I've already said, too. Things I've tried, habbits I've told you I changed. I don't get it. I'll say thanks again, I'm just not sure how many times before you believe it? I've said sincerely thanks. A lot.


So what are you saying to do? Sit down and shut up until my marriage "is" sex-starved? I don't get it. Just be happy with having a marriage that isn't completely broken is what I hear the most here. Maybe my problem seems simple and selfish to everyone BECAUSE their problems are so severe by comparison?


Again, I think it would be a different story if I started over and nobody missed anything. If you can actually picture the things I've changed in your head maybe we could start over, such as therapy and better sleep and not bringing sex up with my wife no matter what. I know she'd be very upset if I were texting and flirting with other women---I'm not judging you for doing that, but it's like that's not the kind of advice I can get here----it's more like I'm doing good and just stay happy and get over sex.

But then that sounds like I'm focusing on sex....so we're back to square one. I'm not sure what to say. It's like having a Ferrari, everything's in perfect shape but the license plate light is out. That's it. The engine is fine. Tires are in good shape. Most people would never notice the issue. But I don't know what else to talk about----the headlights and air conditioning? See what I'm saying? "Be patient." I am! I promise. How long? 6 months, THEN I can officially call it sex-starved and we can talk? See what I mean? It's just tricky, that's all. It's HARD. I MISS it, even if I don't think about it much anymore and don't bring it up with my wife and don't talk to her about it and sincerely do stay busy doing other things and she's happy but just lost her physical love for me.

I guess what I'm really saying is I'm afraid. I'm afraid of month six and what happens when we reach it.

[Grey]

Bond, I do hear the women and appreciate their advice. It's tricky though because they all definitely have sexual appetites from what I've read.

[Grey]

And when I mentioned "fixing" I didn't mean trying to fix her life or problems, I mean and tried to explain that I would be there to help with her problems in any possible way I could, always. I'm not sure what problems were assumed, but from the introduction of the idea all I could think was medical problems----problems out of our control but problems that I could help and that people help their loved ones with, not total loss of libido or finding a new job problems, know what I mean?

[Grey]

Taking the Asperger's test at my therapist's office for example--------that's something I never would have thought of or known to do. I don't have it apparently, or may be borderline, but I did it because you advised me to, know what I mean? That's not the only thing I have thought about, changed, or brought to my therapist explicitly because of information and advice I was graciously given here, but for now, I'm just being patient. It feels like idling in a car waiting for it to stop raining, despite being happy with my W and my M. Waiting [censored], and I don't know how long to wait before asking again about what to do next, that's all. I love your stories and I really do appreciate you talking with me.

[claire7]

Grey,
I can see how you might think I was projecting my issue onto you. I will have to look at my responses to other posters more closely.

I'm sorry my input hasn't been more helpful to you. Best of luck.

[MrBond]

"Bond, I do hear the women and appreciate their advice. It's tricky though because they all definitely have sexual appetites from what I've read."

And you'd be wrong. Not all of them have sexual appetites. In fact, many didn't even think sex was a priority until their spouse left. That's why it's important to UNDERSTAND YOUR SPOUSE on both sides. And even though you say that you appreciate their advice, debate them to the point of sounding as if you're saying that you're right and their wrong. Even though they have the best ins to how your W is probably feeling.

"And when I mentioned "fixing" I didn't mean trying to fix her life or problems, I mean and tried to explain that I would be there to help with her problems in any possible way I could, always. I'm not sure what problems were assumed, but from the introduction of the idea all I could think was medical problems----problems out of our control but problems that I could help and that people help their loved ones with, not total loss of libido or finding a new job problems, know what I mean?"

Sigh. Of course we know what you mean. Why do you keep insisting we don't? YOU were the one who said that there is nothing wrong with trying to "fix" her. But again, that's HER CHOICE. If she feels like she needs your help, she'll ask you. But you constantly get antsy and say that she should be getting help from you or family or professionals, etc. AGAIN, that's NOT your call. That's hers.

[GoatGal]

OK.

Let's call it a "Sex Starved Marriage".

Now what?
-------------------------

Grey,
If you pay no attention to anything else I've said, please pay attention to this:

I agree, participating in therapy is an excellent way to gain insight into ourselves and our actions. It was never really clear to me why you were there, but it's none of my business.

In any case, I do hope you follow up with your therapist about these conversations, because lack of sexual frequency is not the only problem on the table.

If conversations with your W are in any way similar to the ones you've had here, you have much bigger issues to cope with.
There is something you're dealing with that is making this especially difficult for you--whatever that may be.
You're probably not even aware of it.

I'm saying that as kindly as I can and I do not mean to upset you at all. I am saying this from a place of compassion. I hope that comes across.

And if you read back, I have never been condescending or dismissive of you.

Perhaps you missed some of my attempts at humor, but I've only ever tried to help you from my heart.

I hope you can see that because it's the truth.

But I'm all in.

Best of luck to you,

--GG

[Grey]

I'm going to read one of Michele's books again tonight after therapy and taking my W out to dinner, then maybe we can start all over. I don't mean to be defensive, I think we need to start over at square one. Thank you for your help! I'm excited.

[Grey]

I read a lot of posts about another user yesterday but I can't remember his name and therefore can't find the posts. He talked about being co-dependent. If you know who he is or can link to that thread, it would be greatly appreciated! I wanted to look at the book he mentioned.

My W likes to be in control of ALL her relationships---her friends, work, events, and me. I know that now. I think that's why the smallest nothings become acts of hostility for her, like when anyone tries to have their own life or their own boundaries.

I'm not criticising except to say I can only work on me, I know that. I just don't think she'll ever work on her. I'm not happy when she is controlling to the point where she gets upset if every person doesn't read her mind, so to speak. I see it more with her other friends and the people she manages at work, but it also happens to me. It just makes it harder to be in love with her sometimes.

For example, working on me, getting a life, exercising----I was walking the dogs last night an hour early when she drives home---she had been out drinking with a friend, nearly hit us when she didn't stop to turn right at a stop sign. She doesn't WANT me to get a life----I have one, mind you (hobbies, friends, events, etc.) but the more I want to do it's like the more she harbors resentment for me not being available all the time. That part is very tricky.

I'm happier with me, that's for sure! I'm less happy with her now, though. I can't change her, I understand that. My therapist suggested I lend my wife one of the books I've been reading, but I am afraid my wife would first take offense to it and second never really read it, or if she did, it would be to try seeing what I'm doing wrong. It may be inaccurate, but I'm still afraid to do it. My wife thinks I have depression. My therapist swears I don't. I am better about not being anxious around my wife now, but it seems she thinks the problems are all me.

I'm not saying I'm not without fault. I wasn't the best I could be and I made mistakes but I'm never going to pretend they were her fault alone again. And I'm working on me, and loving it! I just don't know where the marriage going to go. It seems like it's getting worse the more I like being me again and having more of my own life. I keep a happy face on (which is easy to do since I'm happy and sleeping better, etc) and I DO enjoy being around her, I just never know when she's going to be upset with me and really how to react to it-----I feel like it's wrong to get walked all over, but I don't want to argue with her about things either. When she's upset, I try to listen and understand her point of view rather than fix it or explain anything. I'm better at that now, but it's like she almost deliberately gets upset at irrational things, like talking to my twin brother on the phone for the first time in weeks while waiting for her to show up at the bar----when she did, I got off the phone, didn't argue, listened, but it doesn't make me feel better or love her more, know what I mean? I WANTED to say, "I just needed to talk to my brother, is that bad?"

So the whole night she got drunk and then went to bed without saying goodnight. When I asked, she said she wasn't angry. I left it alone, but OUCH, it still hurts, and I don't love being around anyone like that, know what I mean?

Tonight we're supposed to go out with her friends again and there's going to be a lot of drinking. On one hand, my stomach is killing me. On the other hand, if I don't go I'm a bad guy, right? So I'll go and I'll have as much fun as I can, I just feel like sometimes I'm faking it and she's always in charge. I don't want to get drunk tonight. I'd love to be SOBER with her for once on a Friday night and watch a movie, just once, just us. I'm apprehensive about tonight. She has another friend coming into town and they're going to get drunk which is when my W is the most mean and forgetful. She gets the most upset when I don't get drunk with her.

I'm talking about her a lot again----I do that here, don't know why, but mostly I think about me, talk more with my friends, and work on getting better. My therapist says she is very proud of me, which makes me feel great! She's helping me build us a plan to do an art show with the new local Maserati dealership. I love visiting my therapist and I enjoy talking to my wife about it, and she likes listening, too. That was two days ago, then yesterday it felt like a 180 on her part. I'm not sure what to think, really. It makes me want to do MORE things on my own, to GAL more, but the tricky part is that's what bothers her the most and I don't know what the balance needs to be for me GAL'ing versus being there for her and being her party buddy, know what I mean?

[GoatGal]

Hmmmmm.....


This is an interesting development.

I need to digest.

---GGG

[sandi2]

How much of the time is your W drunk, trying to get drunk, or planning to get drunk?

Do you ever see her get through a 24 hr period without a drink?

[Zues126]

Pasting a quick study on co-dependency. Don't want to paste the link so here you go:


Robert was trying to control Karen with his anger and withdrawal. When she wasn't attentive enough to him, such as not wanting to listen to him complain about work, or when she didn't feel like making love with him, he would invariably get angry and sullen. He hoped that by punishing her, she would give him what he wanted - what he felt that he needed in order to be okay.

Karen was trying to control Robert with her caretaking. She would listen to him go on and on complaining about work, way past the point of boredom. She would give in to him and make love when she was not turned on, in the hope that he would love her and not be angry with her or leave her for another woman. But Karen had reached a place of deep resentment. She was almost ready to leave rather than go on losing herself in the relationship. When she finally decided to be honest with Robert, he was more than willing to come into counseling with her.

They both believed "I am responsible for making you happy and you are responsible for making me happy. This is why we are together - to make each other happy. Why else be together? When you are not happy, it is my fault, and when I am not happy, it is your fault."

It had never occurred to Robert or Karen that they were each responsible for their own happiness. It had never occurred to them that they were together to share their love rather than to get love. It was a totally new concept to them that they each had a child inside them - their inner child, their feeling self - and that they were each responsible for their own inner child. Each of them had been handing their inner child over to the other person, essentially saying, "Here. This child, my feeling self, is your responsibility."


The problem with this is that, just as an actual child would feel abandoned if you kept trying to give him or her to someone else to care for, your inner child feels abandoned the moment you make another person responsible for your feelings. Then you think that your abandonment feelings are coming from the other person not loving you, when they are really coming from YOU not loving you!

[GoatGal]

Grey,

I was re-reading DBing again last night. ( Now dog-eared and highlighted to the max)

I thought of you when I hit page 100.
Maybe you should re-read that section again and see if it resonates with you.

As for the alcohol use, I was thinking along the lines of sandi2 ^^^^ too.

What's up with that, you think?


---GGG

[Zues126]

The above description is exactly what transpired in my M. I totally understand the need for sex. That was all me. What I didn't realize was that I had a void that she could never fill. It was because I didn't love myself or think I was worthy of love that I needed her to prove me wrong in the specific ways I thought I needed. It didn't end up well and my destroyed family is the result.

The book is codependent no more. It's eye opening.

Now, in my R, there truly WERE some issues with her understaning of y needs. However I didn't give a fair chance for her to hear those needs and make changes on her own because I NEEDED what I needed so badly I tried controlling behavior as opposed to giving her chance to decide who she wanted to be. So I'm not 100% convinced I can live with her most recent level of sexual giving if she wanted me back, but I know two things: 1) I have tons of room to grow healthier on my end which may allow me to accept less, and 2) she will be most likely to meet my needs if I'm not such a D-bag.

Bottom line I love her and our relationship enough to do the work I need to achieve those goals. I only hope I have the chance to try. You do. Please use it.

Thanks, Zues.

[MrBond]

Why do you feel like you need to get "drunk"? She doesn't control that. If you don't want to drink, then don't. Simple as that.

[MrBond]

Still around?