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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2465407&page=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2461450&page=1


Right now I'm waiting again. Waiting for her to try something, any action to show she either cares about her health or our marriage enough to take some responsibility, which you have to do no matter what the problem is.

In the meantime, she's perfectly happy not to change anything. That's the trick. I have to wait again until I can't wait anymore and my therapist says I should say something, so for now I just wait another 2 weeks to see my therapist and I'll take Tylenol PM on the weekends to make sure I get sleep even when I feel the most rejected (she'll stay up past 2 AM this weekend drinking with friends for the holiday but saying she's too tired for me is what hurts so I can't sleep but tylenol pm will help me sleep).

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I think the trickiest part for me is people telling me to get a life.

I have a life.

Then books or people say do nice things, randomly.

I already do that. Maybe if I wasn't already doing what it sounds like so many don't it would help, but then again maybe she wouldn't love me like she does if I didn't do those things, either.


The problem isn't simply "I'm not having any sex," but dealing with it. I hurt. I DO feel alone. THAT IS NORMAL----understand that part first before giving advice or judging my situation.

The solution I hear the most is "get a life." Do things, hobbies, whatever it is just to try to forget. I can't forget, though. I had a life. I HAVE a life. So that doesn't help me. It makes me feel more helpless----ignore my wife more to do more of my hobbies and be social with more people without her?

My problem is patience. I hurt. I hurt badly. Understand that first before saying "stop thinking, start exercising."

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Grey,

I hesitate to keep posting because we just keep going around and around.
But I feel your distress and so... it's like a siren call.

I feel like you keep missing the point with everyone here.

It's not about "getting a life" or "being OK with no sex"... it's more a mindset thing.
No one is suggesting you ignore the problem or live in a sexless marriage.

You have identified the problem as existing within your wife, who is perfectly happy, except that she suddenly doesn't want to have sex anymore at all... is that right?
(Or is it just a frequency thing?)


But if the above statement is true, the fact remains that you CANNOT CHANGE YOUR WIFE to be how you want or need her to be.

You can only change yourself. That is why we say "take the focus off fixing her" while also trying to see things from her perspective.

Talking with her is great if she'll talk openly with you about this---but jt must be framed in a way that doesn't pressure her, and it shouldn't be about you.

It should be more like: "Honey, you know I adore you and I need you to know you can talk to me about anything. Is there anything you want to talk about... because I'm feeling disconnected from you now... I worry that something might be bothering you and I want to help if I can".

Not those exact words, but you get what I mean.

If you get nowhere, she won't talk, well, then maybe give it a little more time.

Maybe she doesn't know herself. Maybe she does but doesn't want to hurt you or risk you leaving her. Maybe she's a Martian Goddess, darned if I know.

If more time goes by and she won't discuss it with you, and you can't live with it anymore, then you need to make decisions about the kind of relationship you need to have... and when you're ready, communicate that to her and see what happens at that point.

But I would advise patience at this point. Something has bound to come into the light.

Sometimes it's best to stop thinking about it so much and it becomes clearer.


Hang in there...

--GG


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



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Originally Posted By: GoatGal
Grey,


You can only change yourself. That is why we say "take the focus off fixing her" while also trying to see things from her perspective.


From her perspective, sex isn’t important. What’s the big deal about sex, she HAD so much with so many others it’s like she’s “over it.” I didn’t exactly save myself for marriage either, but I certainly reserved myself a good bit and took my vows very seriously when I wrote them.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

Talking with her is great if she'll talk openly with you about this---but it must be framed in a way that doesn't pressure her, and it shouldn't be about you.

It should be more like: "Honey, you know I adore you and I need you to know you can talk to me about anything. Is there anything you want to talk about... because I'm feeling disconnected from you now... I worry that something might be bothering you and I want to help if I can".

Not those exact words, but you get what I mean.


I pretty much have done exactly that. She only ever says nothing is wrong. To be honest, I think that makes sense. She knows I can handle criticism better than most because I’m an artist (I crave criticism in my creative life), but nothing is really wrong for her.

More to the point, it bothers her just that I asked. I don’t ask a lot, but it’s like once was too many. So I keep it in. I don’t ask.


Originally Posted By: GoatGal


If you get nowhere, she won't talk, well, then maybe give it a little more time.

Maybe she doesn't know herself. Maybe she does but doesn't want to hurt you or risk you leaving her. Maybe she's a Martian Goddess, darned if I know.


THIS IS THE PART I’M REALLY TRYING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF. I am being patient, I really am, but this HURT doesn’t just go away. Focusing on my life and my goals, hobbies, changing, new hobbies, exercising, it all helps….BUT AT SOME POINT I STILL HURT. It’s like I can be patient for months, but what difference would that make if I hurt? It still feels like lying----I literally can’t talk to my best friend about something very important to me. And it becomes resentment, I’m afraid, even if I’m aware of it and don’t want it to.


So…help. I’m sure other people have GAL’d or whatever, but they also HAVE to still feel these feelings of loneliness and abandonment from rejection. When they feel this way, what do THEY do to cope? I’d like to say if my wife was in counseling (either alone or with me) I could be much more patient, but she isn’t. She gave me a few names of counselors on her insurance to ask my therapist if she had any recommendations. She did, only my wife never did anything.

I don’t think she realizes how big of a problem it is for US, not just for me. But I also feel like IF SHE KNEW, SHE WOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I let her know, but I don’t think she understands that it’s real. She thinks it’s simply selfish. I don’t know what she thought about the guy she had sex with at a hockey game who treated her like garbage, but while I have all the patience I can muster, I am ANXIOUS going home now because I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO DO. I am HIDING this from the person I should be able to talk to. And the advice I get is wait a few more years from some people. It’s so hard, despite efforts to 100% stop thinking about it and become celibate.

I’m “hanging in there,” but every time I am in a meeting and all of a sudden I have an erection, or any time I can’t sleep well, or any time she kisses me the exact same way she kisses all her other male friends, I get anxious and afraid.

I appreciate your response despite me sounding like a broken record, but I come here to vent because I can’t do it at home. I go days being totally ok, then one day I FEEL ALONE and scared and anxious because I can’t make a random erection go away out of nowhere, for example

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"From her perspective, sex isn’t important."

Did she specifically say that? And if she did, why isn't it important to her?

"What’s the big deal about sex, she HAD so much with so many others it’s like she’s “over it.” I didn’t exactly save myself for marriage either, but I certainly reserved myself a good bit and took my vows very seriously when I wrote them. "

Again, did SHE say any of that? Sometimes it's hard to tell what she actually has told you and what you "assume".

"THIS IS THE PART I’M REALLY TRYING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF. I am being patient, I really am, but this HURT doesn’t just go away."

Yes it does. The problem is that all you do is focus on that "hurt". SHE is not the one hurting you. You're doing it to yourself. She's not physically harming you on purpose. But because YOU tie acceptance and self-worth together with sex, you hurt yourself.

"BUT AT SOME POINT I STILL HURT. It’s like I can be patient for months, but what difference would that make if I hurt? It still feels like lying----I literally can’t talk to my best friend about something very important to me. And it becomes resentment, I’m afraid, even if I’m aware of it and don’t want it to."

You're only hurting yourself. She's not "hurting" you. I don't think you grasp that despite your protestations of the contrary.

"So…help. I’m sure other people have GAL’d or whatever, but they also HAVE to still feel these feelings of loneliness and abandonment from rejection."

Sure, but they go away when you stop focussing on them. My W left me for 3 years (and of course no sex) and the hurt went away.

"When they feel this way, what do THEY do to cope? I’d like to say if my wife was in counseling (either alone or with me) I could be much more patient, but she isn’t."

If you're referring to the spouse that doesn't think sex is important, they don't "hurt" because they don't focus on sex. I don't think you're getting the point that not everyone is going to think or behave like you. The one who wants it least is the one who will get it the most.

"I don’t think she realizes how big of a problem it is for US, not just for me. "

That is not a fair assessment. It IS a big problem for YOU and not her. I don't know why you keep arguing that you don't have a problem with that. Have you ever asked her what her expectations are in the M? I think your communication skills in understand your W and explaining your needs in a compassionate way, need serious work.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Quote:
You're only hurting yourself. She's not "hurting" you. I don't think you grasp that despite your protestations of the contrary.



That's not fair.

I don't focus on the hurt.

I hurt.

Staying in my chair for a few extra minutes because I have an erection I can't explain when another group is trying to start their meeting doesn't make me less anxious, and it isn't a result of me not thinking about sex, which I'm not.

Maybe "hurt" is the wrong word for you then, but I do feel alone, I do feel tense, I do feel unwanted, call it what you want just to get to the root; I don't feel good and I can't wish it away. If you can, that's great, and I'd love advice on how you do it and maybe I can even be celibate AND enjoy it (I know it sounds sarcastic, but wow, if I didn't ever want sex again it would actually be a good thing, particularly since she can't have kids and neither of us want kids).

Saying not to hurt doesn't work-----------it's like telling someone to eat broccoli. Sure, it's good for them, but if they don't like it and it tastes terrible they're not going to want to do it just because they should. You can't make someone like food and NO it's not wrong to want sex, and in fact it's to the contrary.

But when you say it's not a problem for our marriage, that's where I draw the line. I'm not happy and you say "just forget about it because it's that simple." If I wasn't meeting a need for my wife, say not spending any time with her or not helping with the house or the bills or the dogs, that would be a problem and you'd call me a jerk. And I'd be a jerk for not for not doing those things, but for not doing them once I knew I should have been doing them.

So when you ask again if I've ever asked what her expectations are, I have to again remind how much I changed explicitly because of asking her what she wanted-----she wanted more time, she wanted a car, she wanted to move out of my studio, she wanted me to take care of the lawn on my own, she wanted me to let her sleep past noon on weekends, etc. I adapted to all of those things BECAUSE I talked to her about what her expectations were and what she wanted. Some of it was hard to swallow. But I did it. Because I love her, not because I expect sex out of her if that's what you think. If it helps, the sex didn't disappear until she kinda ran out of things to ask me to change to make her happy, and, again, now when I ask her she says there's nothing she wants me to change, she's happy and it makes things worse the more I ask----she TELLS me not to ask because she says she will tell me if there's something she needs, which I believe because I've seen it.

Why did your wife leave you? After 3 years, I'm moving on. Judge me if you think that makes me a bad person, but you just said people have to realize people are different and have different needs. I am the person who wouldn’t stay in a relationship with someone who left me in between the Olympics.

But then again, we're not talking about me telling my wife anymore about my needs. I already said that. What I need help with is dealing with the hurt of FEELING rejected--------even if that's not what she's meaning to do, which I frankly know she isn't meaning to do, I still FEEL that pain.

You stopped hurting because your wife left you for longer than I've known my wife. I don't think that's healthy for either one of us, and yes, I think there's a better solution for me to DEAL with this occasional but real and emotionally harmful pain than for her to leave me for x years.

For example, I'm not afraid of much at all. I like performing in front of an audience, live. I go on TV a lot. I'm social. I race cars. I travel with a backpack with no reservations. I conquer MY fears. But I've never dealt with anything like this and I can't simply "conquer" it by pretending I can simply stop thinking about it altogether and become celibate before I feel bad about it again.

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You know something? I felt similar to you for a long time. I felt like my needs were not being met. My husband said I was overreacting, too sensitive, everything was fine. He said he loved me and reminded me of all the things he did for me...and told me he didn't feel like I loved him enough. I felt I was being manipulated or that I was crazy. I felt so lonely and unloved. He refused to go to counseling together. He thought I just needed to go on my own. (Truth is, I did need to go on my own. ..but that is another layer to the story).

And then, one day, he left.

So, yeah, I know about having unmet needs and feeling hurt.

And you know what? If I had found this site earlier, people would have told me the same thing-- and maybe I would have reacted similarly to you.

But the reality is...the ONLY thing you have control over is yourself. You cannot change her. That doesn't mean she will never change.. and it doesn't mean that you have nothing to work on yourself.

Have you even read DR? One of the major points is that ONE person CAN change the dynamic of the relationship.

The problem you are having at work? Well, I don't know how common that is. But I will say that I have not been with someone for many months...and have found ways to release those needs.

You can either choose to be patient and work on yourself... or not.

Again.. what do you want us to tell you? If you really don't think she will ever change, then quit. If you want to work on your M, you have to figure out some of your stuff first. If I had done that, I might not be S today.

Can you have any patience?? No one is saying to live unhappily ever after! But folks do seem to be saying to take a breath, work on your listening and communication skills, and stop focusing on what you think is wrong so much! There are other issues in your M besides no sex. What role are you playing? Is it possible that your W is telling you everything is fine because she assumes you wouldn't really listen to her anyway? Can you focus on any of the good things about her (are there any?)

You may just find happiness and peace if you look inward.


Me 38 H 40
D 3
T 8 M 6
BD 10/2013

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I'll give you another example.

I'm not focusing on sex. Sex comes up. It shows up when friends are talking/joking about it, or when we're playing a game with a group of friends and a card comes up about sex, or when she's watching a movie about sex, or when there's a sex joke on TV, or even better, when a person on TV is upset their husband/wife doesn't have passionate ML with them. It's not me focusing on it, but it's inescapable, for BOTH of us by the way.

One of our good friends (he was in our wedding) somehow brought up he and his wife ML in the shrubs in front of the bushes at the Rio casino in Las Vegas. They seem to love telling that story (perhaps ironically they're struggling not to get a divorce but they still ML a lot). That led into the "most unique place you ever had sex" question. The friend's wife then said, "Oh, I know yours! When y'all did it on the inner tube going down the Nantahala River!"

My wife laughed, said, "no! That was with Paul!"

I'd heard of some of the guys she dated but I had never heard of Paul before.

Then she said the real answer was either in the stands at a hockey game or on a pontoon while her friends were riding rafts behind it. Fr the record, neither of those times were with me.

She went on to elaborate, laughing, and I just wanted to leave the room but instead I acted like nothing was wrong.

I didn't get mad or anything, but it hurt. I don't think I could have possibly stopped it from hurting. I wasn't "focusing on sex," and I didn't bring it up, but there it was like a smack in the face.

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Grey,

What MrBond said was right on the money.

Just a bit of perspective here...

In my situation alone, I have discovered my husband of now almost 23 years (together almost 30) cheated on me, betrayed me, treated me terribly, and finally filed for divorce for reasons he is still unable to articulate.

Prior to that, he didn't touch me for almost two years... and then decides to give the affection that should have been mine to some fool who believed his lies.

I now live alone on a farm, where I have to take care of all the animals and property myself. He shows up. Sometimes.
Sometimes not.
I have senior hospice dogs, part of an endeavor that he and I created together, but now I'm stuck here medicating and cleaning up after them at all hours.
He gets to spend his "down-time" at a friends apartment, his own room, rent-free. There is nobody waking him up in the middle of the night, no roosters waking him at 4 AM.

I have chronic pain from old injuries, yet there are no days off, no breaks... I am ALONE. ALL DAY. EVERY DAY. ALL NIGHT. EVERY NIGHT. (Unless I make specific plans to get out of here and that's an additional burden.)

He allowed us to create a lifestyle where I became completely financially dependent, and now he holds that power over my head.

I could be earning more--but my studio is now filled with his remodeling crap, and it's so hard to get away for more paying gigs and workshops when I have so many chores and there is no one to help me.
How can I get out to play/DJ more when I have to feed the animals in the evening, and get up at the crack of dawn?

I am TRAPPED HERE.

If I didn't have the Internet, I think I might lose it... really I would.
There is no one to talk to except the animals. It's really crazy.

Couple this with thoughts of what my H might be doing with his "free time" and what new plot he's hatching against me... well....

Your Question: How do we deal with the hurt and the pain?

WE ACCEPT IT.
We can't change it.
We learn the skills to cope with it, and over time, it does get better.

That's what we've all been trying to tell you.

Yes. It hurts. You'll read a lot of stories filled with anguish and pain here. Deep pain. For years.
For some the healing is elusive.

It's a process, and we learn to be better and stronger from it.

Do I wish I had a magic potion that would make my H get his head out of his arse and stop acting like an idiot?
You betcha! But there is no such thing.
I can't "make" him do that any more than you can change your wife.

The only people who can make those changes are themselves.
If they want to. If it's important enough.
Period.

The pain I am going through is making me stronger.
I'm like a sword being forged in the fire, I am becoming more resilient, sharper.
I am wiser. I have relationship skills that surpass anything I've ever had.
So in a way, I'm grateful.
I am BETTER than I was before this awful reality was forced upon me, I really believe that.
And others can see it too.

I am LEARNING things I thought I already knew... and I am HUMBLED.
I see myself differently.
I see my H differently.
I see my life and my marriage differently.

Grey,
This is what I hope for you.
That no matter the outcome of your predicament, that you will be a better man for it.

Your wife married you for a reason. Now you're faced with a difficult situation.
How well you handle it depends on the skills you are able to learn and put to use.

You will like yourself more if you come through this stronger and wiser.
And I think your wife will respect and love you even more if you are able to adapt and grow as a result of this trial.

--------------

People here would not be posting to you unless they were trying to help.
They have better things to do with their time.
I know I do.

Perhaps this bumpy phase in your life is signaling a time for quiet reflection, and stopping the thoughts that are sending you into this negative spiral.

Things could be A LOT WORSE.
Not that that's any comfort, but you've got to see the big picture here.

You're not dying.
Your marriage is not crumbling.
You are not in a SSM--yet---and you may never be!
But you've got to handle this delicately... and try and let go of the outcome, at least for a while.

We're still talking a few weeks here. I know it feels like forever, but it's really a blip.

Surely there are other ways to get your needs for physical affection met in some fashion while having an intimate connection with your wife, even if it's not the "ideal" encounter?


Maybe something simple like taking a bath together and/or massage? Something that puts the focus on a physical connection, without the pressure of the "Big O"?

(Sometimes that's the gateway to bigger and better things, anyway. Ask any woman. )

Without going overboard, just spend some time connecting with her tenderly, physically, affectionately, without the sexual overtones.

Not in bed.
Not naked.
Not when you're feeling hurt and needing comfort from her.

Think of it as giving comfort to her---with ABSOLUTELY NO EXPECTATIONS.

And that means, you can't come back here and say:
"It didn't work. She still didn't want to have sex with me!"

It is not to "get her" to "want to" have sex.
It's to get her to feel CLOSER to you PHYSICALLY and EMOTIONALLY.

It's to increase the tenderness, and create an environment of openness and safety for HER.

Again. Expectations that this will "work" on her will defeat the entire purpose.

And I know you do a lot of wonderful things for her that we wish our H's would do for us.
Perhaps you do too much?

What does your W like to do for you?

Have you read the Five Love Languages?
It helped me understand a lot about why my H didn't feel I appreciated him, and I didn't feel that he understood me either.

I'm not going out on too much of a limb when I say I think your top "Love Language" is PHYSICAL TOUCH! Hahaha!
(Mine too. Kind of a problem right now when the only "touch" I get is getting stuck in the ribs with a goat horn or jumped on by a dog in my sleep.)


smile


---GG




Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



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Originally Posted By: claire7

...the ONLY thing you have control over is yourself. You cannot change her. That doesn't mean she will never change.. and it doesn't mean that you have nothing to work on yourself.

Have you even read DR? One of the major points is that ONE person CAN change the dynamic of the relationship.

The problem you are having at work? Well, I don't know how common that is. But I will say that I have not been with someone for many months...and have found ways to release those needs.

You can either choose to be patient and work on yourself... or not.

Again.. what do you want us to tell you? If you really don't think she will ever change, then quit. If you want to work on your M, you have to figure out some of your stuff first. If I had done that, I might not be S today.

Can you have any patience?? No one is saying to live unhappily ever after! But folks do seem to be saying to take a breath, work on your listening and communication skills, and stop focusing on what you think is wrong so much! There are other issues in your M besides no sex. What role are you playing? Is it possible that your W is telling you everything is fine because she assumes you wouldn't really listen to her anyway? Can you focus on any of the good things about her (are there any?)

You may just find happiness and peace if you look inward.


Two things--------you’re right, I can only change me. I did change me to be a better husband because of the things my wife asked for.

And yes, I’ve read DB. I feel like I shot myself in the foot a bit------DB mainly talks about making deliberate change, but nearly all of the suggestions I was already doing. For example, “if your wife isn’t showing you enough affection, why not try leaving her a random romantic note or surprising her with flowers? You’ll be surprised how much your wife wants you now!” I kinda already do the things the book suggests BECAUSE I was already aware how much she liked them and they made her feel loved.

I choose to be patient. I do! I feel like I’m being attacked when people say I’m not patient and not working on myself--------I’m being as patient as I can and I’m doing better than I thought possible with patience… and I still have these feelings, however rare they are, that I’m afraid when they happen and can’t be stopped will turn into bad things for us down the road, such as resentment.

The thing is, everyone says they understand. Then the next thing they say is their partner left.

Originally Posted By: claire7
Is it possible that your W is telling you everything is fine because she assumes you wouldn't really listen to her anyway


Maybe. I doubt it, sincerely. I’m not trying to pass the buck, but I sincerely believe she believes I would listen. For the sake of the next question, please assume that part is true; I think it makes more sense if she doesn’t even know what isn’t fine. For example, if she wants me to make more money, she feels selfish saying that, so she doesn’t or maybe she doesn’t even recognize that’s what she truly wants from me now. I’d give her every penny so she didn’t have to work anymore, and I’ve told her that, too.
Or maybe she doesn’t know what she wants from me, but therapy could help. Only she’s not in therapy and hasn’t made any real steps towards any.

Maybe it’s her hormones, right? But her doctor isn’t going to help her with hormones to get her libido back if she doesn’t tell her doctor about it, right? After all, that’s only important to me, right? I’m the selfish one, right? Asking her to do anything to want something I need makes me a jerk because my need is sex-----any other need and everyone seems to agree, but sex is still a “selfish” issue rather than a love and marriage issue.

Quote:
You may just find happiness and peace if you look inward.


I was happy and at peace before I met my wife. I’m looking inward and I’m afraid of the answer now to finding peace because I’m not like people who can go years without peace. Life is simply too short. I have a friend, his kid died last weekend, 23 years old, single-car crash, wasn’t drinking. If I stay like this for 2 years and then die that way, I’d consider that time a waste. It probably just sounds like I’m not being patient at all, but again, the real question is how to deal with that patience without pretending I can just force myself to want to be celibate and quickly.

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