She says she's conflicted (part 2)

[Oxford1]

Ok, so the question I am now pondering.

How am I supposed to work on my marriage while OM is still in communication with WAW? The part where I am conflicted is, how do I try and get her to not be in this relationship without being controlling?

For example this past weekend there where two instances where she lowered a boundary that she had in place but then I tried to push it a little further and she got very upset.

[Starsky309]

Ok, so the question I am now pondering.

How am I supposed to work on my marriage while OM is still in communication with WAW? The part where I am conflicted is, how do I try and get her to not be in this relationship without being controlling?

You can't, and you don't. You've been told that 100 times here, I'm not sure why it's still unclear to you, Ox.


Starsky

[Oxford1]

I know I can't work on the M, while OM is in the picture.

But I have had other advice to gently push him out.
then other advice to ignore it do the 180 etc..

Every time I do the 180, I get a comment from her to the effect that I am ignoring her on purpose Nd she knows what I am to.

[MrBond]

"But I have had other advice to gently push him out.
then other advice to ignore it do the 180 etc.."

Are you referring to the other websites again or on this one?

[RedHawk98]

Personally Ox, I would only take advice from people who have actually saved their marriages. Or those who are warning you against the same mistakes that lead to their divorce.

Seems like a no-brainer. I made the same mistake of soaking up any advice that seemed vauguely relevant to my situation.You'll just come across as a mess

[RedHawk98]

Personally Ox, I would only take advice from people who have actually saved their marriages. Or those who are warning you against the same mistakes that lead to their divorce.

Seems like a no-brainer. I made the same mistake of soaking up any advice that seemed vauguely relevant to my situation.You'll just come across as a mess

[Oxford1]

"But I have had other advice to gently push him out.
then other advice to ignore it do the 180 etc.."

Are you referring to the other websites again or on this one?

No the MC

[Oxford1]

You don't have the power to push him out. And if you " pushed" him out, that isn't your W willingly letting him go in order to work on the M.

Where ever you are getting the advice on how to work on the M when OM is in the picture ( because the believe here is that it is not possible. And I believe it truly is not possible) perhaps you should ask that question to whomever or where ever you got the advice. Because 99.9% of the people here will tell you to work on yourself and that you cannot work on an m with OP in the picture.

Have you read DR?!

Read DB.

I have worked so hard this weekend on really applying the principles in DB. I try really hard to keep my mouth shut.

I have started to GAL. I think I am just a little gun shy...Went out with some friends. I was talking to the sister of one of their wives shes only 25 now shes texting and calling me all day...This is not what I need right now...she could be my daughter!

Can you believe I feel guilty every-time she calls me...I keep trying to be dad like...

[Maybell]

You need to not respond to any of that. It's easy enough to ignore all but every fifth call, then every tenth, then every twentieth if it takes that long for her to realize you're not interested. You don't have to engage. Don't even bother to be dad-like. Just be remote.

[Oxford1]

You need to not respond to any of that. It's easy enough to ignore all but every fifth call, then every tenth, then every twentieth if it takes that long for her to realize you're not interested. You don't have to engage. Don't even bother to be dad-like. Just be remote.

Oh I agree...
I ain't no Sugar Daddy... :

[Oxford1]

So my WAW is getting Paranoid.

Certain comments at work from women and an advance by a male colleague.

She is now all wrapped around the fact that people are suspicious of her affair.

SHE WEARS OUR WEDDING RING as a way to show she's with me...she also lies to OM about this...

She expects pity from me...

[MrBond]

LET IT GO.

How about posting something positive for a change? Or posting something that doesn't center around your W?

[Oxford1]

LET IT GO.

How about posting something positive for a change? Or posting something that doesn't center around your W?

Ok, so I a, dry proud of S16 he aced all his NYS Reagents exams and finals. 4.2 GPA for tenth grade.

And I have really started to work on myself..but it's mentally exhausting...

[Oxford1]

I have really been focused on speaking less words. On improving who I am...on staying calm..

[figgeroni]

how did a young woman get your phone number?

GALing isn't about going out and partying so it shouldn't be that mentally exhausting

It's about getting to know you
find your likes
being a better person

You should love spending time with yourself

because if you don't want to spend time with yourself....why would anyone else

[Oxford1]

So Wife had a hair appointment that ended at 2;30 then IC with our MC at 5, me at 6:15.

I just got home and shes not home yet. I gave her my umbrella at the MC office. So I know when she left.

MC told me she is telling POSOM that their relationship has to stay the way it ended in Israel. Strictly Platonic. Just as friends for now. That if he comes they will only meet for lunch or go to a movie. Public places only.

She will not tell me though when he is coming.

So I get home at 7:40 its thiunder and lightning, shes not home.

She did not go back to work after haircut. Why I am so focused on those hours ?

Now I cant reach her she texts me shes ok and she will be home soon. Could it be there is now OM#2. MC says no...she is leaning back towards me..

So why do I get all anxious shes not home yet.

I was looking forward to her being home for a nice three day weekend.

I texted her and asked if he was here..She texted back:

I WILL BE HOME SHORTLY! NO HE IS NOT HERE!

Meanwhile now its an hour later there is a huge storm coming and she is still not home...

I know you tell me to not focus on her. But she is my wife, I still love her,
But I do not understand the head games...

[catperson]

Ox, can you make her change her brain, her mind? No? Then stop focusing on what she does. Focus on you. She will do what she wants to do, as always. YOUR job is to work on your temper, your mouth, your tendency to put your foot in your mouth. If you spent half as much time thinking about that stuff, practicing, planning your words, as you do obsessing about what she's doing and about putting OM down, you'd have her won over by now.

[RedHawk98]

Hey Ox, I'm just here to speak of how good that feeling of DETACH feels finally.
As soon as it happens for you, everything gets a lot easier!!

You're less stressed out and less likely to do damage.
Doesn't mean you love them less. It just means that you stop feeling the need to understand her strange ways and wanting to control this frankly uncontrollable situation.

It all came for me in a snap. I've had 10 days now of feeling as happy and carefree as I was in my early 20s.

Once you stop craving things, they tend to happen.
Strange little law of life.

[MrBond]

"But I do not understand the head games..."

She's NOT playing head games. YOU are.

So she's not home. Big deal. Let it go. You're doing this all to yourself.

[dawgy]

Hey Ox , Im relatively new here and Ive been reading your sitch and we have alot in common Bro .I do the same thing > She is supposed to be home but doesnt show > So you wait 30 mins ( which seems like days ) and she still not home so you text her .BAM!!! huge mistake > Everytime I do that it goes bad for me . Not only does she still not come home on purpose then when she does she is pissed that IM trying to control her > Im starting get onto this DBing stuff > Its all starting to make sense . She doesnt want to be controlled , who would . What she is doing when shes not with you is beyond your CONTROL . So if you cant control it , let it go . I know its hard man and I feel for you bigtime but its true , you cant control her , just like she cant control you . A good relationship should never be controlling anyway .My wife has been having an affair for 7 months know , 4 of which Ive known about . Talk about hard to deal with . I dont know how I am doing it , it must be the detachment

[Oxford1]

Hey Ox , Im relatively new here and Ive been reading your sitch and we have alot in common Bro .I do the same thing > She is supposed to be home but doesnt show > So you wait 30 mins ( which seems like days ) and she still not home so you text her .BAM!!! huge mistake > Everytime I do that it goes bad for me . Not only does she still not come home on purpose then when she does she is pissed that IM trying to control her > Im starting get onto this DBing stuff > Its all starting to make sense . She doesnt want to be controlled , who would . What she is doing when shes not with you is beyond your CONTROL . So if you cant control it , let it go . I know its hard man and I feel for you bigtime but its true , you cant control her , just like she cant control you . A good relationship should never be controlling anyway .My wife has been having an affair for 7 months know , 4 of which Ive known about . Talk about hard to deal with . I dont know how I am doing it , it must be the detachment

Thanks and I agree. Its just that I feel like she has always felt like I have no business knowing anything but the minute I get up I am drilled on every little item.

[Oxford1]

"But I do not understand the head games..."

She's NOT playing head games. YOU are.

So she's not home. Big deal. Let it go. You're doing this all to yourself.

Update


I have to stop assuming he is here. Apparently if he comes it will be in late August before the holidays. She plans on spending the Holy days with the family..

She walked in and after I handed her a cup of hot tea she told me what happened.

First when she called OM, he told her about all the Cr@p in Israel right now. He has a Birthright Tour of over 30 kids and they cant go to the old city of Jerusalem because of the riot. She reiterated to me thats why she could never live there its to FVKeed up.

Anyway she told AP that she and he had to just be very good friends at this point. That she would not stay with him, that he has to rent a car and she will only meet him for a few hours for lunch or go for a walk in a public place. No true alone time.

She told the MC and me, that she is devastated that she allowed her relationship to get in the way of her morals. Yes, she though we were divorcing, yes she thought she was done with me but she should never have gone to bed with him it was wrong.

That when she was in Israel the last time she moved into the other room was to not get him sick, but the truth was its not that she was not feeling well, she moved into the guest room because she was uncomfortable.

He went ballistic according to her..her words were "I got stuck longer than expected after I opened up my feelings to OM"

She told me that it was like an hour of dealing with him about her plans. Which included not staying with him in his hotel. Only meeting him publicly etc..just like two friends..Only walks in public areas. You see she does not feel comfortable showing affection in public. What I don't get is way she allows him to get all up in her face and controlling but if I just inhale wrong I am accused of these tactics.

Where I needed to rubber band myself (I am thinking of an electric dog collar) but the rubber band helped, was I said "oh and I am the controlling one?"

Her response was...Don't go there! (Still defending this louse)

Anyway this morning she said she had some paperwork. I politely said, just do us a favor and don't start working on the weekends so you can cut out of work to see OM...She did not like that...got all huffy that it has nothing to do with him

I told her the way I always caught her was the excessive weekend paperwork, before he showed up.

She said she would tell me and she is still trying to convince him not to come...but that my comment was controlling not his insistence on coming anyway!!

Then she kissed me good morning and I said to her you still avoid my lips like I have the plague but when you see him its going to be tongue time..She actually laughed at this and said you know I don't show affection in public so don't worry!!

This is what I don't get...the lack of real affection..she will hug me if she thinks that's what I want..but no real affection..

Then I did say so when are you going to box up those brass rings and ship them back to him..she gave me the look. Still not ready I assume to end this immature commitment they made!

The marriage Counselor believes as long as she does follow her commitments of only friendly meetings I should be OK with this. Especially since she said that she planned on following this as long as we are married. The MC believes that the longer she does this and the more time she spends with OM on her turf in the US the more it will drive a wedge between them. she has started to complain to the Good Dr about OM and she complains about stuff that if he was her husband (ME) the MC would recommend divorce

So my goal is to just shut up and not talk about anything to do with the OM or the relationship. Especially tomorrow when she and I have a 5 hour drive together!

[Oxford1]

Really good friends with her unstable OM. You are actually ok with this?

IMHO, why does she need to be close friend and have friendly meeting with him?

You are ok with that?

No not at all read what I am attaching and see what happened today.

I am also trying to see what is pushing a boundary and what is setting one.

I try to set boundaries and it always results in me looking like the bad guy.

For example today the wife went in her home office to work.
Before I took my shower she said she wanted to get her work phone to check email.

When I looked she also took her " special phone".

So I went in her office and nicely said, " can you not use that for on the weekend, I thought you said these three days were for us" she starts in with I knew you would check...I can do whatever I want I am a free woman etc...you can't control me...

I said fine then tomorrow when we go to see our S21 leave it home...her comments were " wash rinse repeat " of the above.

I told her forget it just forget it. You can call your son and say your going by yourself"

She asked me to leave the room.

While I was in the next room cleaning the fish tanks I admit it was passive aggressive but I made comments...kind of in the realm of ...oh no I did not call him he thinks I am dead..or oh I need to talk to my American mistress it's been ten minutes...

She came out of her office angry as hell ..I looked her in the eye and said...

Here's my boundary ...you will not take that cell phone with you tomorrow...of course she goes off again...
She says you are wrong I am not in a Fog...I am not a drug addict ...I told you it's just that he gets worried and he's a sweet guy and I can't hurt him!"

So here was my comment:

" your idiot has you on such a short leash..yes he's 6500 miles away, but you are in the most controlled intrusive relationship....
You are on the shortest leash in the world!"

Her next comment was " oh that's a new one I have not heard"

Within 5 minutes of her walking away, she's back in the room being all sweet and nice to me and agreeing to leave her phone home tomorrow.

So I am wondering did I push to hard...I mean how do I set a boundary or ask her to respect me without somehow it involving the OM?

[Oxford1]

I'm sorry, but your MC is very sketchy to me. I cannot imagine one saying a close friend ship with an affair partner while working on an existing marriage is a good idea. I just can't.

She feels that the wife still has strong feelings and that she is afraid to let him completely go.

I think my wife is a little spoiled brat and is off her rocker.

I think she does not want me to have another wife and believes that no one but her deserves OM.

Truth is she does not see that no one else wants OM that is why he has not been married since 1995.

Funny thing is my wife says his 17 year girlfriend had all sorts of issues and that's why she stuck around him....ah duh...anyone who sticks around this guy has emotional problems..

[catperson]

Ox, the boundary thing is the ONLY thing you have control over. And it is NOT controlling. Well, it is controlling YOU. "Wife, if you contact OM in this house today, I'm going to stay with Joe for the night. You can take Son to his piano practice by yourself." Or "Wife, if you bring your special phone with you to see Older Son this weekend, I'm going to rent a separate room to stay in and see him on my own time and rent a car to get home because I don't want to spend my weekend with a woman who blatantly cheats in front of me."

That's a boundary (don't contact OM) followed by what the consequence will be (loss of you for the day). It's then HER CHOICE if she wants to contact him so badly that she'll risk facing your consequence. That's not you controlling her at all - it is you protecting YOURSELF.

Do you see the difference?

[MrBond]

"Anyway this morning she said she had some paperwork. I politely said, just do us a favor and don't start working on the weekends so you can cut out of work to see OM...She did not like that...got all huffy that it has nothing to do with him"

Controlling.

"I told her the way I always caught her was the excessive weekend paperwork, before he showed up."

Controlling.

"Then she kissed me good morning and I said to her you still avoid my lips like I have the plague but when you see him its going to be tongue time..She actually laughed at this and said you know I don't show affection in public so don't worry!!"

Passive aggressive.

"Then I did say so when are you going to box up those brass rings and ship them back to him..she gave me the look. Still not ready I assume to end this immature commitment they made!"

Controlling. You're the one acting immature. A real man understands his self-worth and wouldn't care what she did.

"Here's my boundary ...you will not take that cell phone with you tomorrow...of course she goes off again...
She says you are wrong I am not in a Fog...I am not a drug addict ...I told you it's just that he gets worried and he's a sweet guy and I can't hurt him!""

Controlling. Demanding that she not take her cell phone with her is NOT a boundary. It's you trying to establish control.

You really haven't learned much have you? Why do you think you're in the same situation?

"I think my wife is a little spoiled brat and is off her rocker."

That's evident it's how you think about her. You keep treating her like a child. Are you her father or her husband?

[figgeroni]

you are acting like a spoiled brat.

she kissed you and you whined around because it wasn't how you wanted?
you demand that she do certain things?
you accuse her of cheating after she told you she isn't?
you make snide comments about someone she cares about?

my aren't you being a prize!!!!

you really need to focus on yourself and not your wife and definitely not the OM

[Oxford1]

you are acting like a spoiled brat.

she kissed you and you whined around because it wasn't how you wanted?
you demand that she do certain things?
you accuse her of cheating after she told you she isn't?
you make snide comments about someone she cares about?
This I get, because when the Affair was only emotional she said my digs about him and her relationship frustrated her.

my aren't you being a prize!!!!

This is where I get confused. Am I supposed to look away. am I supposed to allow her to continue her relationship right under my nose?

I am hearing from some to demand she stops her affair:

Really good friends with her unstable OM. You are actually ok with this?

IMHO, why does she need to be close friend and have friendly meeting with him?

You are ok with that?

And also:

I'm sorry, but your MC is very sketchy to me. I cannot imagine one saying a close friend ship with an affair partner while working on an existing marriage is a good idea. I just can't.

I feel like I am getting so many mixed messages here. Do I try to end her affair or what? Not being angry truly asking for some feedback..

you really need to focus on yourself and not your wife and definitely not the OM

[Oxford1]

I agree, I need to not treat her like a child.

I know she is getting that from OM, he tells her to not call me her husband. He demands that she says the house I live in etc...

He even told her to call his car her car and that she HAS to call his apartment their apartment or he would ignore her!!!!!

I can not believe she puts up with this.


My concern is, how is asking her to not text him and call him right under my nose when we are visiting our son being controlling.

Would any man allow his wife to text her "boyfriend" right in front of him...

I have learned a lot from this site. I avoid any relationship talk, I have learned to ignore her temper etc. Except when it gets out of control, but I am not responding with anger.

The only thing is today she came home and was biting at me constant biting, the woman I had been married to was back..I even said, I can tell your viewing us as married because your admitting when I upset you...

She said that was true and she appreciated that I was not getting angry back at her.

Then about an hour later she went all manic about something I was supposed to do for her without checking whether I had done it or not..

I did say to her...Look I know you spoke on the phone today, just because someone else is getting you worked up don't take it out on me. I don't deserve this.

She got into something about her affair. I said I don't really hold that against you its just that even your affair is my fault.

She said look it did not get physical until I asked you for a divorce (my words from weeks ago), I said I know that and now that your home I don't even think about that anymore..

It calmed her down...

[Oxford1]

No , you are misunderstanding me completely.

I am not telling you to demand that she stop her affair . I am telling you to put up a personal boundary. To say you will not be a third party in a marriage. That leaves her with a choice. It's not demanding her to do something.

Unless you are with being a third part in the marriage. But it is evident you aren't and you are very resentful and focused way too much on OM.

So , I have explained this before. You decide what you will tolerate. Then she decides if she is willing to respect that. If not, you go about your business and leave out OM.

Thanks!! I was totally misunderstanding you.

I guess I am missing the fine line between selfish demands and boundaries.

I really avoided the OM until she was all hyper sensitive tonight. I know he is driving her nuts. The thing is she so much defends him and does not want to hurt him.

she even once said a long time ago that even though he yells at her and never stops talking she rather deal with that then me..

Once I heard her yell at him..in 25 plus years of marriage my husband never spoke to me the way you do and I am not going to put up with it.

But guess what that was almost a year ago!!

[MrBond]

"I know she is getting that from OM, he tells her to not call me her husband. He demands that she says the house I live in etc...

He even told her to call his car her car and that she HAS to call his apartment their apartment or he would ignore her!!!!!

I can not believe she puts up with this."

You talk to her the same way.

"My concern is, how is asking her to not text him and call him right under my nose when we are visiting our son being controlling."

That's not what you said she was doing earlier. In fact, I don't recall you "asking" her to not do anything. You demanded that she not take her cell phone. That was the controlling part.

[Oxford1]

"I know she is getting that from OM, he tells her to not call me her husband. He demands that she says the house I live in etc...

He even told her to call his car her car and that she HAS to call his apartment their apartment or he would ignore her!!!!!

I can not believe she puts up with this."

You talk to her the same way.
now that's what I don't get. If the affair was all about the way I treat her, why did she pick someone that even the MC and her old IC said was 100x worse then me? The collaborative divorce coach said it was that she wanted to be romanced, that she could fix him, felt bad for him and fantasizes about the life he was offering. He also said I can't forget that she has come back to me in some regard.
So Mr. Bond I was told I need to be more of an Alpha man, how does this fit into all of what this site and DB has said. It seems that an Alpha is more demanding etc.

"My concern is, how is asking her to not text him and call him right under my nose when we are visiting our son being controlling."

That's not what you said she was doing earlier. In fact, I don't recall you "asking" her to not do anything. You demanded that she not take her cell phone. That was the controlling part.

Ok I get it. Asking versus demanding.

[MrBond]

"now that's what I don't get. If the affair was all about the way I treat her, why did she pick someone that even the MC and her old IC said was 100x worse then me?"

In YOUR eyes he's 100x's worse than you. Not to her. It's what he DOES give her in a positive way is you should be concentrating on.

"The collaborative divorce coach said it was that she wanted to be romanced, that she could fix him, felt bad for him and fantasizes about the life he was offering."

That's correct.

"He also said I can't forget that she has come back to me in some regard. "

That's also correct.

"So Mr. Bond I was told I need to be more of an Alpha man, how does this fit into all of what this site and DB has said. It seems that an Alpha is more demanding etc."

Who told you that? First of all, your definition of an "alpha" is being a d*ck to a woman. That's not what it is at all. An "alpha" leads through strength of character. Not through how loud they are.

[figgeroni]

the only person you can control is yourself

You can not make her end her affair
you can not make her not text him or call him or fantasize about a life with him


you can only control yourself
make yourself a better person

[Oxford1]

"now that's what I don't get. If the affair was all about the way I treat her, why did she pick someone that even the MC and her old IC said was 100x worse then me?"

In YOUR eyes he's 100x's worse than you. Not to her. It's what he DOES give her in a positive way is you should be concentrating on.

"The collaborative divorce coach said it was that she wanted to be romanced, that she could fix him, felt bad for him and fantasizes about the life he was offering."

That's correct.

"He also said I can't forget that she has come back to me in some regard. "

That's also correct.

"So Mr. Bond I was told I need to be more of an Alpha man, how does this fit into all of what this site and DB has said. It seems that an Alpha is more demanding etc."

Who told you that? First of all, your definition of an "alpha" is being a d*ck to a woman. That's not what it is at all. An "alpha" leads through strength of character. Not through how loud they are.

This is an understatement and I agree with it.
That's what I am trying to focus on.

She will tell me OM is a sweet guy but then tell me how they are similar and fight more then she and I ever did...again her excuse is it's because they are so much alike..he's her father, her brother and her lover..( she has not used this in over a month)

What I am trying to do is stay calm and not let her anger me. I also avoid conversations with her about OM. It only comes up when she puts all the blame on me for her affair.

[Oxford1]

the only person you can control is yourself

You can not make her end her affair
you can not make her not text him or call him or fantasize about a life with him


you can only control yourself
make yourself a better person

This is what the MC has been working with me on in individual sessions.

[Cadet]

Ox I know that you cant see this but the affair sounds like it may die of its own weight, just let go and let her flounder on her own.

I think you are actually starting to make some progress, but dont backslide, you can't fix her or change her, she must do that on her own.

You dont want her back unless she makes the changes to herself.

This wife, the way she is right now, is NOT what you want.

You want her new and improved version.

She will not change over night, give her the space to improve herself.

OK?

[MrBond]

"What I am trying to do is stay calm and not let her anger me. I also avoid conversations with her about OM. It only comes up when she puts all the blame on me for her affair."

The anger is something that you do to yourself. Think of it this way. If she were a stranger and came up to you off the street and started yelling hatred at you, you'd just look at her like she were crazy and then walk away laughing. Think of her as that stranger. You attach meaning to her words which causes you to get angry.

Let it go.

[Oxford1]

Ox I know that you cant see this but the affair sounds like it may die of its own weight, just let go and let her flounder on her own.

I think you are actually starting to make some progress, but dont backslide, you can't fix her or change her, she must do that on her own.

You dont want her back unless she makes the changes to herself.

This wife, the way she is right now, is NOT what you want.

You want her new and improved version.

She will not change over night, give her the space to improve herself.

OK?

Thanks Cadet. That's what I am trying to do right now. Our MC agrees with you.

I have been reading and trying to just fix my issues. I just have to bite my tongue and I am getting better at it.

For example today she called me from work while we were on the phone she said a patient was calling her and she had better get it or they would keep calling...I knew " who" the "patient" was.

I so much wanted to say..I did not know you dealt with mental patients ...

But I did not say it...I kept my mouth shut and ignored it...

[Starsky309]

You dont want her back unless she makes the changes to herself.

This wife, the way she is right now, is NOT what you want.

You want her new and improved version.

She will not change over night, give her the space to improve herself.

OK?

This. ^^^^

[Oxford1]

You dont want her back unless she makes the changes to herself.

This wife, the way she is right now, is NOT what you want.

You want her new and improved version.

She will not change over night, give her the space to improve herself.

OK?

This. ^^^^

Your so right Starsky. What led to our problems were issues that she needs to face as well as I need to face mine.

I am happy to say she is in
therapy.

[Oxford1]

"What I am trying to do is stay calm and not let her anger me. I also avoid conversations with her about OM. It only comes up when she puts all the blame on me for her affair."

The anger is something that you do to yourself. Think of it this way. If she were a stranger and came up to you off the street and started yelling hatred at you, you'd just look at her like she were crazy and then walk away laughing. Think of her as that stranger. You attach meaning to her words which causes you to get angry.

Let it go.

You know I let this really sink in. In my career I have irate clients etc scream at me or act completely irrational and unprofessional, I have never let this get to me, that's why I am successful in my career.

If I would apply some of these principles to my wife things WOULD BE and COULD BE much better...

[mdu]

YES, Oxford. I think the same thing about applying things I am successful at work to my home life. For instance, I realized that I give a TON more thought & consideration to a challenging conversation with a colleague than with my H. Hmm...priorities a little backward, maybe?

I totally agree thinking about and applying other areas of your life where you're successful to you M is a very useful exercise!

[Oxford1]

So here is where I am at.

The OM is coming back to the USA, She tried to get him to not come. He demanded yes demanded that he is coming and she should see him. The plan is to meet him in public open areas together and not drive in the same car etc. These plans were made through the MC and relayed to me. The only thing that upset me was she is going to see him on the weekends too. she says only for a few hours and it will be in the middle of the day.

I do't want to come off controlling or be a Deek Head. I am not happy at all with this. She has committed that there will be no tome alone and wont even know where he is staying. I want to trust her but a little birdie keeps telling me not to.

She also says that this is when she is going to tell him that she has no plans of traveling to see him nor of having him come back here. That she has reapetedly told him that as long as my S16 lives at home she will not do anything again that can hurt him.

So I asked if this is still because she has a 2 year plan. She said no, she really wants to stay married. She feels we have rebuilt ourselves and our marriage. she is just not ready to give up the OM. She feels a connection there is something about him his soul (even the MC believes she is one of those woman who falls for her priest, reverend , rabbi, whatever). My only mistake was pointing out to her that all people in affairs have this "Soulmate" concept.

SO I am writing this little confessional because I am angry and glad at the same time. The MC says if I stay calm and allow this and the WW is true to her word then this could all lead to a demise in the affair.

I am just frustrated that she seems afraid to hurt him, afraid to tell him that he should leave after a few days. I asked her is it that you dont want to or your afraid.

She said, she feels bad for him, he has given up a lot of friends to be with her. When he is not working with a tour group he has nothing to do but sit around his apartment...WHY IS THIS HER Concern?

I confronted her that she seems less willing to hurt him than me...She said that I am wrong all of this is hurting her.

So on one hand she says she has fallen back in love with me, but on the other she feels that even asking her to break contact with OM is controlling...

UGH

[Starsky309]

SEE ya, bubbye.


Starsky

[Oxford1]

SEE ya, bubbye.


Starsky

What do you mean?
Are you telling me to throw her out?

[Starsky309]

Yes. And the MC who's actually advising you to condone this arrangement.

And I'm saying goodbye myself, because I obviously can't help you and it's unkind to keep beating you up about it.

Good luck, Ox. I truly hope you see the error of all of this someday soon, and get your dignity back. As for this woman of yours, if it were me -- I wouldn't want her. She is not a woman of quality.

My opinions.


Starsky

[Oxford1]

Yes. And the MC who's actually advising you to condone this arrangement.

And I'm saying goodbye myself, because I obviously can't help you and it's unkind to keep beating you up about it.

Good luck, Ox. I truly hope you see the error of all of this someday soon, and get your dignity back. As for this woman of yours, if it were me -- I wouldn't want her. She is not a woman of quality.

My opinions.


Starsky

What can't you help?
I have learned to be less controlling

I thought part if the DB strategy was not to throw her out or move out of the home.
Also to not try and force her to do anything.

[zew]

Ox - it's crazy.

If she doesn't want to see him, then her actions would be not to see him. You don't go see someone to say that you don't want to see them. You just don't see them.

This suggests that she is still totally under his control.

If, from a distance, she can't resist going to see him, then how will her will power be when they are together?

And that the MC is complicit in these arrangements, well, you want to find a new MC, pronto.

And the stuff about not wanting to hurt S - I think you nailed it. She does have a two year plan.

[Cadet]

We are telling you to LET HER GO.

Stop worrying about her and the OM and worry about YOU!

If she picks the OM their is nothing you can do about it.

She probably is not going to pick you cause she has you wrapped around her pinky.

Until you let her go she has no pressure on her to let go of the OM.

And even after she lets the OM go she will still be VERY BROKEN.

Is that what you want a BROKEN wife?

OX does she fear losing YOU?
WHY not?

[Oxford1]

We are telling you to LET HER GO.

Stop worrying about her and the OM and worry about YOU!

If she picks the OM their is nothing you can do about it.

She probably is not going to pick you cause she has you wrapped around her pinky.

Until you let her go she has no pressure on her to let go of the OM.

And even after she lets the OM go she will still be VERY BROKEN.

Is that what you want a BROKEN wife?

OX does she fear losing YOU?
WHY not?

She does fear loosing me. Yesterday I emailed her and said I found two beautiful apartments we can go look at them on Saturday so she can pick one.

She went nuts emailed me back in all caps.
I know some of it was manipulative.

We had a long talk last night she is insisting she is inly seeing him a couple of times a week for lunch and on the weekends only out in public. She shad she told him nothing physical he want nuts in her that she needs to understand he's not for the flesh.

He just feels he wants to be alone with her to talk with her in private.

I told her that the minute a man says he is not for the flesh it's the opposite.

She tells me if anything physical happens she would kill herself because she has promised the sons that she is being plutonic with me and I'm right now.

The crazy thing is she tells
Me she booked a fly fishing trip for me and her for the weekend if my birthday!
Talk about a cake eater.

She's is for a surprise . When OM shows up a week from today and he goes to see him
When she comes home all her stuff will be In the basement apartment.

She keeps insisting we have made great progress and I have to let this play out ! I told her what so in two years you can leave and hurt me again!

[Oxford1]

Ox - it's crazy.

If she doesn't want to see him, then her actions would be not to see him. You don't go see someone to say that you don't want to see them. You just don't see them.

This suggests that she is still totally under his control.

If, from a distance, she can't resist going to see him, then how will her will power be when they are together?

And that the MC is complicit in these arrangements, well, you want to find a new MC, pronto.

And the stuff about not wanting to hurt S - I think you nailed it. She does have a two year plan.

The MC said based on stuff WAW tells her the Ww is more curious as to why she fell for OM. She is going to tell OM that she will not travel or have him come back here. They have to keep it long distance. She also does not want to move to the Mid East.
I don't think she's lying to the MC.
She plays the game of not wanting to hurt OM this is the only time I find myself getting a little angry

[sandi2]

I thought part if the DB strategy was not to throw her out or move out of the home.

I don't recall it being in the book, but maybe it is. As I remember, it was advice given on the board which has been passed down over time.

I was a WAW in an A, so speaking from that perspective, I would have more respect for my H to either leave or tell me to leave.....rather than hanging around to watch it rubbed in his face. IMO, it is demeaning for a man to take that defeated, pitiful stance of waiting & watching and listening to her discuss the details of her A.......while hoping this will be the day she chooses him. And for two more yrs?

Even if the A ends, would she be attracted to her LBH? She won't if she doesn't respect him as a man. Unlike other crises in life where a woman needs assurance and security of her H's love and all that's included as being his spouse, in an open A, you have to deal with it differently. A WW does not appreciate the long suffering H who tries to show her how forgiving, patient, loving, willing, and/or faithful he is to her. She doesn't care! The only things that really gets her attention are the consequences for her actions, her H not being available to her, her inability to affect his indifference, and him GAL & being happy without her.

I think your MC's advice conflicts with what you get here. Seems it would be less confusing if you discontinued the MC. You could always get a DB coach, if you needed extra counseling.

[Oxford1]

I thought part if the DB strategy was not to throw her out or move out of the home.

I don't recall it being in the book, but maybe it is. As I remember, it was advice given on the board which has been passed down over time.

I was a WAW in an A, so speaking from that perspective, I would have more respect for my H to either leave or tell me to leave.....rather than hanging around to watch it rubbed in his face. IMO, it is demeaning for a man to take that defeated, pitiful stance of waiting & watching and listening to her discuss the details of her A.......while hoping this will be the day she chooses him. And for two more yrs?

Even if the A ends, would she be attracted to her LBH? She won't if she doesn't respect him as a man. Unlike other crises in life where a woman needs assurance and security of her H's love and all that's included as being his spouse, in an open A, you have to deal with it differently. A WW does not appreciate the long suffering H who tries to show her how forgiving, patient, loving, willing, and/or faithful he is to her. She doesn't care! The only things that really gets her attention are the consequences for her actions, her H not being available to her, her inability to affect his indifference, and him GAL & being happy without her.

I think your MC's advice conflicts with what you get here. Seems it would be less confusing if you discontinued the MC. You could always get a DB coach, if you needed extra counseling.

Thanks Sandi

My issue is I get verbally agressive instead of staying calm.
My WAW and me set some boundarys for her visits with OM.
The thing is it turned into me attacking OM and her having him here at all.

This is my one issue. I know the OM attacked her and has been yelling at her etc.

It is pushing her away from him.

Then I get on her too. This is where I need coaching..on keeping my mouth shut.

[MrBond]

"My issue is I get verbally agressive instead of staying calm.
Then I get on her too. This is where I need coaching..on keeping my mouth shut."

So what are you doing to get that fixed? I don't see that you've gone to counseling for yourself to get your control issues under control.

[Oxford1]

"My issue is I get verbally agressive instead of staying calm.
Then I get on her too. This is where I need coaching..on keeping my mouth shut."

So what are you doing to get that fixed? I don't see that you've gone to counseling for yourself to get your control issues under control.

Actually my IC and The MC have started working on this with me.

What I don't understand right now is that my WAW runs not and cold with me constantly lately.

I can not figure out my next move when it comes to her actions.

For example last night she pushes me away from cuddling with her and starts an argument ( I did not respond) then this morning she's all cuddled.

Before I left for work we had a discussion...she asked what I would do if she decided that OM was her man...not me...after she tells me that she still has questions about her relationship with OM.

I feel like I am being manipulated...that she does not want to let me go, but can't see a future with out OM.

[25yearsmlc]

"My issue is I get verbally agressive instead of staying calm.
Then I get on her too. This is where I need coaching..on keeping my mouth shut."

So what are you doing to get that fixed? I don't see that you've gone to counseling for yourself to get your control issues under control.

Actually my IC and The MC have started working on this with me.


Keep at it-- b/c it's a big thing for you, and no doubt it's something your w worries about you reverting to... Do not gloss over this trait b/c it's a big problem for you and it is something your w has clearly noticed.

What I don't understand right now is that my WAW runs not and cold with me constantly lately.

I can not figure out my next move when it comes to her actions.



That^^ is b/c you are reacting to her or what you think she will do. This DB process is about You doing what is best for YOU to do, to become your best self. NOT to "get her back" or to anticipate HER next move but to proactively change your life.

There is a difference between you doing your personal work b/c you want to become the best man you can become, and strategizing your next "move" to get her back...that's just tactical, not true inner change.

Do you get what I'm saying?


For example last night she pushes me away from cuddling with her and starts an argument ( I did not respond) then this morning she's all cuddled.

Before I left for work we had a discussion...she asked what I would do if she decided that OM was her man...not me...after she tells me that she still has questions about her relationship with OM.

why are you having these ^^ types of discussions? They are hypothetical AND all R talk and that is a bad combination. Detach. No expectations. Seriously, those get you in trouble.

I feel like I am being manipulated...that she does not want to let me go, but can't see a future with out OM.

[Oxford1]

Something I keep focusing on is a comment my WAW said this morning.

" there may be nights I want to be alone and may sleep in the guest room"

I keep thinking this will be because of one of these reasons:

A) needs time alone to think
B) feels that since she's not alone with OM it's only fair to do this at home
C) feels like she's cheating on OM

And the one I keep playing with in my mind is

D)has gone to bed with OM

And that is what I keep biting my tongue over! ( the sex one)

[Cadet]

I keep thinking this will be because of one of these reasons:

A) needs time alone to think
B) feels that since she's not alone with OM it's only fair to do this at home
C) feels like she's cheating on OM

And the one I keep playing with in my mind is

D)has gone to bed with OM

or NONE OF THE ABOVE

This is total mind reading and wasting your valuable time,
focusing way too much on her and OM.

WHY?

What do you think you are accomplishing?

[KenF]

"I thought part if the DB strategy was not to throw her out or move out of the home."

if i remember correctly, this was a legal issue - if you move out you could be giving up legal ownership of the house. if you throw her out it could be used against you as if you're abusive.

[Oxford1]

I keep thinking this will be because of one of these reasons:

A) needs time alone to think
B) feels that since she's not alone with OM it's only fair to do this at home
C) feels like she's cheating on OM

And the one I keep playing with in my mind is

D)has gone to bed with OM

or NONE OF THE ABOVE

This is total mind reading and wasting your valuable time,
focusing way too much on her and OM.

WHY?

What do you think you are accomplishing?

You are right Cadet. I guess I still can't believe that my WAW would fall for someone that even her therapists, my therapist and the Marriage counselor believe is such a looser.

When I compare who I am to him it's shocking.

[figgeroni]

instead of writing a script that you think she is following and attributing an agenda to her....

How about just validating...
like...
I understand wanting alone time
and then
walking away and really not thinking any more about it...


This is HER
not you

it doesn't matter why she wants to sleep alone
she wants to

that is a valid thing

give it validity and stop assigning motives

[Oxford1]

"I thought part if the DB strategy was not to throw her out or move out of the home."

if i remember correctly, this was a legal issue - if you move out you could be giving up legal ownership of the house. if you throw her out it could be used against you as if you're abusive.

We are joint owners on the mortgage according to her lawyer and mine neither of us can force the other out.

I do have a restraint order that prevents OM from coming within 500 feet of our house. I said he was a danger to s16.

[MrBond]

"I said he was a danger to s16."

How so?

Personally, I don't know how much the IC is good at helping you control your anger and control issues. You still have them show up here alot.

[Oxford1]

"I said he was a danger to s16."

How so?

Personally, I don't know how much the IC is good at helping you control your anger and control issues. You still have them show up here alot.

He told my wife that my S21 was a punk because he wrote a letter to the OM.

When WAW told OM that she would not leave until S16 was out of high school he told my wife that she should leave my S16 or he would talk to my son and convince him he was a better man then me.

Would you let a guy like this near your kids?

[Oxford1]

"I said he was a danger to s16."

How so?

Personally, I don't know how much the IC is good at helping you control your anger and control issues. You still have them show up here alot.

I don't think I am that controlling. How should I act while my wife is with this OM?

Also anger, I am not as angry as I am sad.

It's kind of like a good friend of mine

He was pinned under a beam at the twin towers on 911. He is now a retired NYC police officer.

He was at his psychiatrist lately a woman of Non-Israeli Mid Eastern Descent.

She said to him you seem very angry especially at people who look like me...

His answer:

DO YOU THINK?

[MrBond]

"Would you let a guy like this near your kids?"

No but it doesn't prove that he was a danger to them. You were, again, thinking that he was trying to influence them the way he did with your W and was trying to exert control. If he was an @$$, your kids should be smart enough to figure that out. It's not like your kids are that young.

[25yearsmlc]

"I said he was a danger to s16."

How so?

Personally, I don't know how much the IC is good at helping you control your anger and control issues. You still have them show up here alot.

He told my wife that my S21 was a punk because he wrote a letter to the OM.

When WAW told OM that she would not leave until S16 was out of high school he told my wife that she should leave my S16 or he would talk to my son and convince him he was a better man then me.

Would you let a guy like this near your kids?

You missed the point of Bond's post to you. We are asking about your control and anger issues and how you are managing them.

B/C you don't seem to be. And your answer was another attack on OM.

Frankly, I think convincing your son that he's a better man than you, makes more sense to me than a restraining order. Seems to me he wants his reality to be seen as the truth, and to him, it is.

I don't see him as a danger to your son, although I can imagine he irritates the heck out of you.

But I see this as more about control issues of yours.

So, what are you doing, specifically, to handle yourself better and to gain better control over yourself, which means in part, letting go of trying to control others?

[Oxford1]

I have decided to not argue with the wife anymore.

I am not trying to influence her decisions anymore.

Also trying to focus on me.

I do realize via the MC that when I set a boundary and don't follow through it's a lie or at worst it's control.

If I set a boundary I have to stick to it.

I am also really trying to not ask controlling questions or make demands.

[25yearsmlc]

I have decided to not argue with the wife anymore.


I sure hope you stick to this^^. Arguing with someone about their emotions, does not work. It's not persuasive, although leading by example CAN be.

Still no guarantees. But when you think you are getting somewhere with an argument, it usually means the other person is temporarily caving in, to end the discussion. It's a temporary result of them feeling bullied, and the damage done by the argument itself is often more 'Expensive" than the point being argued is worth. Make sense?

In other words, It's not a productive use of your time, and it hurts your cause.


I am not trying to influence her decisions anymore.
\

Good. It comes off as pressure from you, big time. Which backfires on you.

And Besides you can't really influence someone else with words. All you can influence is how they perceive you, which you "influence" w/your behavior and actions. And even then, it may not succeed and at those times, you have to let go. Furthermore, it takes up enormous amounts of energy to try and influence someone else and that energy ought to be spent on changing yourself.

Also trying to focus on me.

That ^^ is Absolutely the best course of action. So when you get the urge to criticize your wife or OM, or to attack them, or to manipulate an outcome or maneuver an event, or "announce to others", or plan out something involving others, STOP and get the mirror out and work on the only person you can & should work on, YOU.

Get back to YOU.

I do realize via the MC that when I set a boundary and don't follow through it's a lie or at worst it's control.


Setting a boundary - on others - is ALWAYS about control. An actual "boundary" like we mean, is something you impose on yourself, not on others.

If you were to say, "MY boundary is that YOU must speak to me in a calm whisper and polite manner" that is NOT a "boundary".

That's just you making a demand, dictating to someone how they must speak to you. it's you trying to control how they speak to you.

A healthy way to express what I think you'd mean in that^^ scenario, would be something like "I need to be spoken to with courtesy, and I will do likewise". and then when someone raises their voice or behaves inappropriately, you may warn them once (or not) but then YOU leave.

You don't tell them to leave or to change; you just announce what YOU will do, and then you do it. See the difference?


If I set a boundary I have to stick to it.


Yes In the event of an actual boundary being crossed, you must follow thru...but make sure it's an actual boundary on you, and not a demand of others.

***AND NOTE*****you can change your mind, as long as you have a real reason to change it (like you are calmer now, & you reflected on it some more, or you got added information to change your opinion on something.

Or maybe you were simply wrong to have set that boundary in the first place...that's okay to admit. It may even be a great 180 for you)--

but if you are simply handing out ultimatums and then backing down b/c you don't want to enforce them, OR B/C you fear following thru, then you will be undermining your own goals.

& It probably means you are issuing too many ultimatums and calling them boundaries, which are just control vehicles you MUST stop using...

Don't issue an ultimatum to get a reaction, or to punish or "teach a lesson to" or to "show her the consequences of her choices" (it's not a spouse's job to do that)

and don't set a boundary if you are not SURE you are alright with following thru with the promised result.

(That is probably why MWD is so hesitant to suggest ultimatums & so careful about defining boundaries). Many of us issue ultimatums only to realize later that we did NOT want the result we created.

So, if you want to keep your word as valuable as it can be, don't waste it on ultimatums you are not prepared to fulfill.

Make sense?

I am also really trying to not ask controlling questions or make demands.

Great! Maybe you can rephrase your questions to know in advance how they'll sound b/c maybe you don't always know when you are being controlling, versus just curious or interested.

**(Sometimes it's not enough to know what "not to do", in times of stress or crisis. We have to replace bad behaviors with new, positive ones. You may need some new role models for help with this, b/c it's very easy to revert to old known ways, even bad habits, in times of crisis and painful stress. That is why these resources and new tools are so crucial to get--asap)**

MY DB coach said "Avoid any question that starts with 'How could you do/say that'?'

b/c it is really meant to put the other person on the defensive, so avoid those.

Same goes for questions with "WHY did you say/do 'X'?"

Again, the way those questions are phrased does tend to make the person hearing them, want to defend themselves. That's not productive for our cause. We want our spouse to problem solve WITH us, like we are on the same team.

So the blame game has to end. Same goes for the scorecards...lose those or lose the marriage. See, the ironic thing about scorecards is that the partner has their own!

I had a big one. My narrative was I had "Put h thru medical school, and gone to law school myself, carried & had our children and worked full time and for every night h was on call, I was a single parent..."

but in my h's eyes, , he "worked his butt off to earn a good enough salary and pay the bills and enable w to be a sham mom later on, and worked long hours and etc etc..."

so to HIM, he was ahead on the scorecard and I was behind. Never mind our arguments, those are just " facts" we saw differently.

Another example and then I'm done for now.

We were traveling in the Pacific NW recently and I was driving. There was a big car accident I had to maneuver around, and watch for traffic as well as some wildlife on the road. A lot of people were making sudden stops. The seat I was in was uncomfortable, and the steering wheel was a bit high for me, so my back was getting very sore.

On the other hand, my h and kids saw beautiful scenery and wildlife, and reclined to get a better view of the mountain tops. They were taking stunning photos of the gorgeous vistas all around us.

We were on the same drive, but our experiences were very different.

Do you see how neither of us was "right" or "wrong", but that we simply saw the same things, quite differently? We saw the same things but with different points of view.

Food for thought.

[Oxford1]

Thanks for this post it is very very enlightening to me.

This morning my sister in law texted a cell phone we just keep as a back up. The wife was demanding that it was my phone her comment was who's that your new girlfriend. I told her it was not my phone and I have no girlfriend.

Funny she is having an affair but I am being checked up on.

Anyhow it was her sister asking how she and the boys were. I told my wife that I get offended that her sister acts as if I am out of the picture already. My wife got very defensive and accused me of starting. When I told her I was hurt she said that I should ignore her sister.

Then the WAW got all up in my face about the fact that everyone knows about her affair even her cousins..that her sister is upset that someone told her cousins via email. It was not me so I don't get this.
She said to me if you want us to get back together you should never have told a soul.

I said it's interesting how people in an affair don't want anyone to know...( would this be a controlling conversation?)

In addition I was thinking about how everyone she visited or stayed with with OM knows she is married as a matter of fact he has lost a lot of friends over the fact that he is with a married woman ( I think they all know he has done this before),
So how come that's alright?

I also have been on my best behavior and tried to avoid anything about this weekend etc.

I just can not believe that she thinks her behavior is acceptable for my s16.

[Oxford1]

I was sent this link by a friend.

It fits my situation like a glove!

Would it make sense to leave this for my wife to find?

The Next Guy

[Oxford1]

I am in such a weird place.

I keep feeling that OM is playing me as maybe is the WW. That they really want me and expect me to go nutso and kick her out and file.
(Legally I can not kick her out)

As much as people claim that by not doing this I am enabling her affair, I feel that by doing it I am going to end up divorced.


It's just that what reassurances do I have that they won't run off to a no-tell motel?

Can I say something like :

If you end up in bed with him you need to call me and tell me to file for divorce we are done?

[Drew]

Would it make sense to leave this for my wife to find?

NOOOO!!!!

Can I say something like :

If you end up in bed with him you need to call me and tell me to file for divorce we are done?

Didn't you listen to anything 25 said to you? Do you think that's setting a healthy boundary or a controlling ultimatum?

[KenF]

you cant tell her to do or not do anything. you cannot teach them anything. you cannot persuade or get her to realize anything.


when i was going through my D, my x and i had a sit down and discussed what was going on. it was not DBing, it got ugly at times, but some parts went well.

during the conversation, as she was saying she wasnt sure what she wanted, i gently (and i made very sure as i said it without any anger or force) to just let me know what she was decides and not to spring it on me.

the very next day, i overheard her telling her mother that i was demanding that she tell me everything she was doing.


so. the point of the story is the WAS will hear things differently than you say them. and in my case, will twist things to their advantage.

[MrBond]

I thought you were working on your control and anger issues.

I guess not.

[claire7]

Vets, you give such amazing advice. Some of us really do listen! (and miss you on our threads! hint. hint.)

Oxford, I have to be honest, it's frustrating to read (and re-read, and re-read) how the vets give you advice, which you misunderstand or ignore, rinse and repeat. For months. They have spent a lot of time on your threads and given you amazing feedback.

Have you tried meditation or yoga or biofeedback or medication to control your emotions and spiraling thoughts? Can you set a goal of using the wonderful advice you've been given here for just *one* day?

In your next post, can you tell the people following your thread about one thing you tried (doesn't matter how well it worked) based on advice you got here?

Good luck.

[figgeroni]

why in the high holy universe would you tell her that it hurts your feelings for HER SISTER to act like you are out of the picture?

Why the heck do other people know

What is your purpose because it feels like you are just trying to manipulate her into staying....

she has to WANT to stay and honestly, that OM is looking better and better to me

as for having him be a threat to your kids...
are you serious?
he isn't threatening them...he is saying he is going to try and convince him that he is better than you...

How is that threatening unless he IS better than you?


you need to drop her out of the picture and just work on you

[Oxford1]

I thought you were working on your control and anger issues.

I guess not.

I am working on them. I have not opened my mouth or made any demands.

I was asking a question. I was told to not do those things I asked about so I did not.

Part of working on issues is to ask others for advice.

[Oxford1]

Vets, you give such amazing advice. Some of us really do listen! (and miss you on our threads! hint. hint.)

Oxford, I have to be honest, it's frustrating to read (and re-read, and re-read) how the vets give you advice, which you misunderstand or ignore, rinse and repeat. For months. They have spent a lot of time on your threads and given you amazing feedback.

Have you tried meditation or yoga or biofeedback or medication to control your emotions and spiraling thoughts? Can you set a goal of using the wonderful advice you've been given here for just *one* day?

In your next post, can you tell the people following your thread about one thing you tried (doesn't matter how well it worked) based on advice you got here?

Good luck.

I have not said a controlling or angry word to her tonight. I got home much later than her. I was very nice but followed the advice on the 180. I did not start any conversations , but when she did I participated.

Tonight was one of the better nights for me. No digs etc..

I do have a biofeedback device and I have started to use it.

The this with her sister was dumb, I was acting out of Anxiety

[Oxford1]

why in the high holy universe would you tell her that it hurts your feelings for HER SISTER to act like you are out of the picture?

Why the heck do other people know

What is your purpose because it feels like you are just trying to manipulate her into staying....

she has to WANT to stay and honestly, that OM is looking better and better to me

as for having him be a threat to your kids...
are you serious?
he isn't threatening them...he is saying he is going to try and convince him that he is better than you...

How is that threatening unless he IS better than you?


you need to drop her out of the picture and just work on you

Oh great, the OM a person who demands that she calls him her fiance, demands that she not call me her husband, demands that she not say her house, demands that she sya our apartment, yells and screams at her for spending time with her son.

The RO was on an attorneys recommendation so that OM did not come to my home. It was not a controlling act at all. It was legal advice.

[25yearsmlc]

I was sent this link by a friend.

It fits my situation like a glove!

Would it make sense to leave this for my wife to find?


To do what? Oh...

You mean to show her zero growth and change on YOUR part? Sure...go ahead...

[url=http://www.shrink4men.com/2013/02/06/the-next-guy-did-your-ex-girlfriend-or-ex-wife-downgrade/][/url]

[25yearsmlc]

OX

I don't think you get what we are telling you. You keep making this about a win lose thing and how bad OM is, and you continue to compare and compete.

Don't. Just work on you. We are not lying to you when we say we see issues in you that need work, and they are not small issues.

You have some serious personal work to do and if you had done it before, maybe you would not be here. \

Just The fight with your wife about HER SISTER calling on a different phone, is an example of what we mean.

That took some negative spiraling to arrive at a place where you saw yourself as a victim in the first place (b/c the sister called a back up phone, you decided it must mean she had cut you out of her life and NOT that she simply did not want to talk with you? That's the thing Ox, why not ask yourself why her sister might want to avoid talking to you and then change how YOU interact with them?)

and then you thought telling your wife that her sister hurt you, was somehow your wife's responsibility (why not tell the sister how you felt?) AND how did you decide the sister was "wrong" anyhow?

Ox, Did you take in what I wrote to you in my last post? You say it gave you something to think about but the next posts from you are the same old thing.

Your anger at your wife for her sister's call, was SO totally out of line for you, and your wife was correct to say you were starting a fight. She even pointed it out to you,--- but you kept at it without a thought that maybe you should stop your mouth...

So give our advice a real try, and dig deep into your soul, bravely, (b/c it takes a lot of bravery to do this, I know)

and figure out why you are so quick to defend, so fast to argue, to deny, to point a finger at others, and to avoid looking in the mirror.

AND CHANGE THOSE TRAITS. Don't explain them or excuse them or figure out how your childhood memories triggered it...this is a solution based site so we work on change and doing what works, NOT doing more of the same stuff that does not work.

You need to work on yourself to change YOU. Do you get that? YOU have to change you. Not your wife, not OM, just you. (Plus you are all you control anyhow, so stop wasting time on trying to fix others).

Start there and let the rest fall into place...b/c if you do the work YOU need to do, the rest really will fall into place and you will be alright in the end. Seriously.

[Oxford1]

Thanks this is insightful.
I realized as I commented on her sister that I was being a dope. It was to late to take it back however.

It may seem like I am not learning, but I believe that from where I was right before the affair started to where I am now is a big difference. Even the relationship counselor has pointed this out.

One of my primary issues was I worked with an IC for almost a year, who listened to me complain and let me vent my frustration but never gave me any real advice.

The psychologist who was our marriage counselor was giving me advice and when I switched to her as did my wife I felt that I was being served much better.

She emailed me this after meeting with my WW yesterday.

"Self possession and self control are two of the primary attributes of manhood. She's noticing. Keep working on them, and don't blow it with impatience born of anxiety. Let someone else do that."

The someone else is the OM.

Thanks for following my thread.....I appreciate all everyone has done for me...I really believe I can win this......the change I need to make within myself is what I can win!

[Oxford1]

So for the past several days I have really applying Sandi's rules and the results are amazing.

I heard from the Relationship Coach that the wife is noticing the changes, that OM is starting to show his true colors.

The next step for me is to start to get a little bit more of a life away from WW.

Next week I will be traveling for business for two nights.
The following I am going to be doing the same.

[Oxford1]

"You have some serious personal work to do and if you had done it before, maybe you would not be here. \"

This Is exactly what the Relationship Coach told me. She said the changes she noticed in me and the WW notices had I made them years ago, there would never have been an OM!

[KenF]

thats great Oxford. now just keep it going. consistency is key. and remember this is a long long process. dont expect her to change her mind in a week or a month or even more.




"I realized as I commented on her sister that I was being a dope. It was to late to take it back however."

i believe that if you realize it as its happening, then just stop yourself immediately, give a quick "sorry" and adjust yourself correctly.

if you have trouble admitting when you're wrong, then that is a good 180 to practice.

its best to catch and correct yourself, than to continue one the wrong path.

[Oxford1]

thats great Oxford. now just keep it going. consistency is key. and remember this is a long long process. dont expect her to change her mind in a week or a month or even more.




"I realized as I commented on her sister that I was being a dope. It was to late to take it back however."

i believe that if you realize it as its happening, then just stop yourself immediately, give a quick "sorry" and adjust yourself correctly.

if you have trouble admitting when you're wrong, then that is a good 180 to practice.

its best to catch and correct yourself, than to continue one the wrong path.

I really have to de focus on WW and other man this weekend, actually for the next three weekends.

I have to be the better man not to won my WW back but to regain who I am

[KenF]

YES!

what happens is, if you spend months and months focused on them, it becomes habitual. your mind will go back to those thoughts on its own. it will then require constant effort to think of something else. you have to give yourself something else to focus on, something healthy.

[Oxford1]

YES!

what happens is, if you spend months and months focused on them, it becomes habitual. your mind will go back to those thoughts on its own. it will then require constant effort to think of something else. you have to give yourself something else to focus on, something healthy.

I am understanding this now. I really need to focus the next three weeks or I will make myself nuts.

I also have to stay away from other boards, they want me to divorce her, that puts the focus on her again.

I just need to work on me...

[Oxford1]

Vets, you give such amazing advice. Some of us really do listen! (and miss you on our threads! hint. hint.)

Oxford, I have to be honest, it's frustrating to read (and re-read, and re-read) how the vets give you advice, which you misunderstand or ignore, rinse and repeat. For months. They have spent a lot of time on your threads and given you amazing feedback.

Have you tried meditation or yoga or biofeedback or medication to control your emotions and spiraling thoughts? Can you set a goal of using the wonderful advice you've been given here for just *one* day?

In your next post, can you tell the people following your thread about one thing you tried (doesn't matter how well it worked) based on advice you got here?

Good luck.

Trying to figure out how I know you.

I am really focusing on controlling my Anxieties. I have realized this week that my biggest issue is my Anxiety. That I always over react or over think due to my anxieties.

This weekend I am going to work some more with the BioFeedback device I purchased.
Tomorrow morning is going to be the first real test of the new Steve.

I will have to really really control my mouth and my anxieties and act out of love of myself and my own self-respect.

[KenF]

there comes a point where you have to avoid all boards, give yourself a break, distract yourself, GAL, regroup. Use the boards, but dont let them replace your real life.

[Oxford1]

there comes a point where you have to avoid all boards, give yourself a break, distract yourself, GAL, regroup. Use the boards, but dont let them replace your real life.

I agree !

My head is spinning not from DB!

From most if the other boards. Especially the discussions on my son and threatening my WW with divorce. That will not work for her.
She has said she will drop me and OP if push comes to shove.

I am really focusing on becoming the kind of husband no woman would ever want to leave.

[25yearsmlc]

"You have some serious personal work to do and if you had done it before, maybe you would not be here. \"

This Is exactly what the Relationship Coach told me. She said the changes she noticed in me and the WW notices had I made them years ago, there would never have been an OM!

Which means OM is not the issue. Your work is. Focus only on YOUR WORK. Do you get that? I mean it, b/c I posted A LOT to you and I feel as if it went in one ear and out the other. Fwiw I can't spend that much time on a post if it is wasted and that's not a threat but just an observation.

so, What are you DOING to show that you are different? It's one thing to know what NOT to do, but a whole other thing to learn how healthy people react to stress. In other words, what TO do.

You seem to know you are not to blurt out in anger (though you still do rather frequently) but you do not know or have any positive married role models around.

You need some and you need new tools for communicating and in my opinion,

I think you need a new thought pattern. You come off as very negative and suspicious which is usually insecurity.

I suggest one easy and small thing to do is watch the TED TALK videos by Shawn Achor and Amy Cuddy. One is on positive psychology and how we say or view things really changes our lives

and Amy Cuddy's is on "faking it til you Become it" and both talks are about 20 minutes and interestingly presented and on youtube.

It's a start. I think if you start to follow some new behaviors rather than waiting to feel differently, the behaviors will do some of that for you. In other words you ca change how you feel inside by what you do outside, at times.

Otherwise we wait and wait for 'internal inspiration" to make the changes we need and that leads us to being stuck. Inertia is powerful and overcoming that, is a big part of our journey.

Check out those videos and let me know what you think. Feel free to reflect here on what you think you are hearing b/c I'd like to know if something is reaching you at a deep enough level.

Understand?

[Oxford1]

"You have some serious personal work to do and if you had done it before, maybe you would not be here. \"

This Is exactly what the Relationship Coach told me. She said the changes she noticed in me and the WW notices had I made them years ago, there would never have been an OM!

Which means OM is not the issue. Your work is. Focus only on YOUR WORK. Do you get that? I mean it, b/c I posted A LOT to you and I feel as if it went in one ear and out the other. Fwiw I can't spend that much time on a post if it is wasted and that's not a threat but just an observation.

so, What are you DOING to show that you are different? It's one thing to know what NOT to do, but a whole other thing to learn how healthy people react to stress. In other words, what TO do.

You seem to know you are not to blurt out in anger (though you still do rather frequently) but you do not know or have any positive married role models around.

You need some and you need new tools for communicating and in my opinion,

I think you need a new thought pattern. You come off as very negative and suspicious which is usually insecurity.

I suggest one easy and small thing to do is watch the TED TALK videos by Shawn Achor and Amy Cuddy. One is on positive psychology and how we say or view things really changes our lives

and Amy Cuddy's is on "faking it til you Become it" and both talks are about 20 minutes and interestingly presented and on youtube.

It's a start. I think if you start to follow some new behaviors rather than waiting to feel differently, the behaviors will do some of that for you. In other words you ca change how you feel inside by what you do outside, at times.

Otherwise we wait and wait for 'internal inspiration" to make the changes we need and that leads us to being stuck. Inertia is powerful and overcoming that, is a big part of our journey.

Check out those videos and let me know what you think. Feel free to reflect here on what you think you are hearing b/c I'd like to know if something is reaching you at a deep enough level.

Understand?

I so agree with you. What I realized it was like an epiphany was that I was looking for a magic bullet to help me win my WW back and chase the OM off. The magic bullet is me.
I need to make changes in who and what I am and these changes are all that I can control.
The past few days have been very peaceful. I am acting as if nothing is going on to me the wife going to meet OM has been relegated to going to meet a girlfriend.

I really focused on work this past week as well as myself preservation.
While I was out working I visited a couple of friends for lunch that happen to live near where my clients are located .
We talked about their lives and I never once discussed my situation.

I even took my mother to dinner and when she brought up my life and my WW I only talked about the family and the kids.

Don't think that your wasting your time do me that favor. I need as much support for the next two weeks and three weekends. This is the test god has handed me.

If I can really follow the 180 during this period and watch my anger and insecurities I believe that I will come out a better man on the other end.

[Maybell]

25, do you have a book recommendation for how healthy people respond to stress? Because while I feel like I've gotten a lot of things under control I'd like to move to the next level of zen in the face of chaos.

Thanks, and sorry to hijack, Ox.

[Oxford1]

25, do you have a book recommendation for how healthy people respond to stress? Because while I feel like I've gotten a lot of things under control I'd like to move to the next level of zen in the face of chaos.

Thanks, and sorry to hijack, Ox.

Quite ok ...especially since it probably benefits all if us!

I am definitely stressing a little this weekend. But I am really trying to not let it frustrate or anger me.

I think I am handling it better than I have in a long long time.

[Oxford1]

So the wife is in her date. I had no idea and did not care where she went she texted me to say where she was and that he was leaving soon and would be a little later then our agreed upon time.

I knew this would happen the first day because I figured OM would give her some grief about her wanting to leave and come home every day.

I am in a mixes place , I am glad she texted me and kept me up to date and volunteered where she was, but I also feel she violated her promise if trying to be home by 6.
I guess I will follow DR advice and choose my battles and this one is not worth it.

[Oxford1]

So the wife is in her date. I had no idea and did not care where she went she texted me to say where she was and that he was leaving soon and would be a little later then our agreed upon time.

I knew this would happen the first day because I figured OM would give her some grief about her wanting to leave and come home every day.

I am in a mixes place , I am glad she texted me and kept me up to date and volunteered where she was, but I also feel she violated her promise if trying to be home by 6.
I guess I will follow DR advice and choose my battles and this one is not worth it.

I was debating asking her to move into the guest room especially while OM was here. I was going to ask not tell.

When I woke up this morning she was already sleeping in there.
She said that she feels bad that she has been lying to OM. She Rolf him she's not sharing a he's with me and refuses to share one with him.

She felt it only fair to not sleep in our bed while he is here in the USA.

I am not going to get into any discussion on this topic.
She was the one that volunteered what she did and why she got home late.

My only confusion comes from that she hugged and kissed me before she left yesterday and now is acting like I am her brother.

My course if action will be to be this way in return.
I feel if I don't ask questions and act as calm as possible while he is here and let her make her own decisions on moving back to our bedroom.

The decision that I really am going to have to plan for is if I find out she is making plans to see him in person again especially after she had said she was going to tell him they could not meet up again for a long time maybe never..,that is when I will have to go in The Last Resort option.

Oh I read almost the entire DR again yesterday. It's amazing how much information I missed the first time I read it it was an eye opener.

[Oxford1]

there comes a point where you have to avoid all boards, give yourself a break, distract yourself, GAL, regroup. Use the boards, but dont let them replace your real life.

So this morning I read some comments on my thread in another board.
It ends up planting seeds
So while we were at the Gym she starts rushing me.
I know she's rushing me so she can go on her little lunch date with OM
This always gets me and we start discussing our relationship etc.

This is bad the gym is about us

I am just wondering if I should cut out all activities with her while OM is in town
She already moved into her girl/cave and out of theMaster bedroom for now.

[Oxford1]

You need some and you need new tools for communicating and in my opinion,

I think you need a new thought pattern. You come off as very negative and suspicious which is usually insecurity.

I suggest one easy and small thing to do is watch the TED TALK videos by Shawn Achor and Amy Cuddy. One is on positive psychology and how we say or view things really changes our lives

and Amy Cuddy's is on "faking it til you Become it" and both talks are about 20 minutes and interestingly presented and on youtube.

It's a start. I think if you start to follow some new behaviors rather than waiting to feel differently, the behaviors will do some of that for you. In other words you ca change how you feel inside by what you do outside, at times.

Otherwise we wait and wait for 'internal inspiration" to make the changes we need and that leads us to being stuck. Inertia is powerful and overcoming that, is a big part of our journey.

Check out those videos and let me know what you think. Feel free to reflect here on what you think you are hearing b/c I'd like to know if something is reaching you at a deep enough level.

Understand?[/color]

Thank you so much!!

I watched both videos. The "Fake it to You Become it" was actually the most insperational to me.

The Positive Psychology is what I have been working with my IC on.

I am being reached deeply. My WW even said I have become a better man. What I realize I have to do is act like I am better do the things that make me better and eventually it will be who I am.

The issue for me is the slipups. Had I not got into a discussion with ww at the gym today or asked the anxiety driven questions I asked, I would be five steps ahead this weekend. The mistake I make is I get to focused on what she is up to or what I think of OM and it leads down the wrong Path.

I am going to try the power pose peice befoe I get into conversations with her.

I am also going to not let her have an effect on my happiness.

Its interesting though , she asks me how I kept busy yesterday while she was out. I ask if OM rented a car and I get attacked as being intrusive.

So I realize I don't have to answer her and this in turn will prevent me from questioning her.

The more I don't care what she is up to, the better off I will become.

[Oxford1]

Good morning 25 I did some serious thinking last night.

This was after the Ww and I had some discussions. Nothing beyond the ordinary.
No arguing no pick me dance

She reveled some thought patterns of The OM.

She said something that that really makes a lot of sense to me(that she is feeling)
She said all she is getting is to much psycho-babble from the Therapist from OM and sometimes from me and that sometimes just talking is psycho babble just because.


This plus everything I have read in DR and on my thread and others has pointed me in the direction I need to go.

I Am going to apply the "fake it to you become it principle"!

Number one is less talk i can think things but I have to keep them to myself.
The best thing I can do right now is get through the next two weeks and two weekends with peace in my mind I need to just keep the peace.

The MC pointed out that OM has this time to try to destroy my family she believes he Is hoping I loose my cool or do something drastic and the less ammunition I give him the better.
Eventually he will get frustrated and start to come apart at the seams.

There is one piece of Ammuniton I have that he does not...the folks on this board!