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Bond- thank you. I don't have good replies other than to say that I reread your posts frequently and sometimes ask what you would say when I'm going a little crazy in my head.

Tonight I moved most of my stuff into plastic storage bins in the garage. I don't have a place to move in to yet so the deal was I'd tuck it out of the way until that happens. Never fun. Just another bullet to any denial defense I still had going on. But not that bad either. I'm learning D is something we can get through. It's just not something I'd like. I will stick to my plan of growing from my mistakes and see what happens.

Frankly there are times when I don't care anymore. I'm not pretending I'm detached. It's just that while I made horrendous mistakes in the marriage, it was still difficult for me as well. I may have been wrong but didn't make it feel any easier at the time. So although I intend to grow from it the relief from the struggle isn't lost on me. There are times when I get a little bit dismissive about the whole situation thinking it's not worth fighting for someone that is that uncommitted to a relationship, but I know the truth. I blew it, and that's just me trying to sour grape myself from a tough loss.

I'm fairly confident we'll have a good partnership raising the children. Once the expectations of her making me happy are eliminated I am a pretty easy guy to work with so the positive is we won't be destructive with each other. And of course I'll be trying to grow into the husband only a fool would leave. With me that may be a long time, but no excuses, I'll do the work and see where it gets me.

The good news is I am growing as a parent. When I was younger I was too absent. Then I became the 'fun' dad, playing games and watching movies but not really developing them, etc. That's one of my 180s, and I can see it happening. My son is going to a summer school and is having a hard time making friends. Instead of playing games all night I was able to have him open up to me about it and I gave him some good ideas on how to try things differently. I taught him that people want to talk about themselves, so instead of trying to get people to listen to and understand him, he needs to ask questions to get them talking about themselves and he'll be meeting people in no time. Then we brainstormed different conversation starters and I had him write them down. Finally we role-played and took turns pretending we were trying to meet new people. Hey, I'm a professional sales manager, I guess I'm just used to training that way. But it can't hurt. I'm going to call him tomorrow and practice over the phone. And of course I reminded him that it's not going to happen overnight, it will take patience, rejection, etc. And it won't come easy. So I prayed with him to have discipline to practice, courage to try, and resilience to continue to know he was loved by God when it didn't work the way he wanted.

So I've been sad, detached, discouraged, and excited about my new life and opportunity to grow all in the same day. Welcome to life I guess. Good night all, and thanks for the support.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Jun 2014
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Zues126 Offline OP
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Guys, I've had a roller coaster of a last few days. It's day 15 without porn and I have been tested because I've felt very hopeless at times and have felt it was impossible and maybe we just aren't compatible because I'm too broken and it's too late. At times I feel like giving up not just on the R but on life because I start feeling like I'll never be able to find any peace on my own or with another. But I tell myself those are just thoughts and I have to keep going, I pray as more time passes and I keep striving that will change. I realize those thoughts are just more selfishness and immaturity, but man it can be tough to break out of.

That leads to some dilemmas I've been wrestling with, feel free to challenge or contribute. I know I'm going off course but can't always figure out how. PLEASE don't give up on me. It would be easy to because I feel that way too but this is too important for too many people. I have to grow stronger.

-Detaching. I'm so mixed up about this. Do I need to stop loving my wife? Or just stop hoping for a future? I know I've had trouble letting go of the rope. Part of me is scared that if I stop caring about the chance of reconciliation all love will die out and it won't work. The good news is I have done/said nothing that would indicate pursuing, but I'm working on the real me vs. her perception. Thoughts?

-GAL. The books say not to wallow in emotion. But my therapist has told me my problem is that I dissociate from emotion and fill up my life so I'm so busy I don't have to feel. He says I need to learn to be hurt, vulnerable, and sad. I've always ran from negative emotions and escaped by taking on projects, etc. How do I balance this?

To be clear, I recognize this is the weakest part of me. The weakest part of me won't get it done. I'm still praying daily for the strength to learn to be the stronger part of me. The part of me that loves myself, isn't clingy or desperate, is confident, assured, and content. My STBX and I still only communicate via email which is great because I can pray for that tone to come across in my messages prior to writing, then reread to make sure it is 'God and DB approved'.

To all of the others going through similar struggles I hope you all feel your own value tonight and know that you are special.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
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Zues126 Offline OP
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I need some advice. So here's the sitch. I e been out of the house a month now. Done a lot of soul searching. My 180s: Validate, no expectations, no anger/intensity, focus on the needs of others (kids).
We were virtually no contact for 10 days. She started texting me for the first time on Friday. Prior it was email only. I've never initiated the texts, and have usually ended them. But her tone has been warm- not loving but friendly.
Her last text was "I hope we can still be friends"
How do I reply?
Remember- If reconciliation is ever possible it will be a long way out. And may be no chance. But how do you ever know? I am working hard on myself but know I haven't grown as much as I need, I'm still not consistently detached, etc.
my DB coach says to focus on the new relationship: collaborative cops rents with mutual goodwill raising the children. And from that partnership over much time she may see changes and want more, or she might not. Worst case at least we have an amicable divorce.
So with that in mind, how should I reply? I love her, I don't want her as a friend and long term if that's all wed have that wouldn't work for me, but I'm a long way from writing this off. Help!?!


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
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Zues126 Offline OP
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Sorry, too long. Details above. Question: how do I reply to "I hope we can still be friends"?


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Apr 2014
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"Detaching. I'm so mixed up about this. Do I need to stop loving my wife?"

That's CD thinking; you have to stop loving to detach. You detach because you love.

"GAL. The books say not to wallow in emotion. But my therapist has told me my problem is that I dissociate from emotion and fill up my life so I'm so busy I don't have to feel. He says I need to learn to be hurt, vulnerable, and sad. I've always ran from negative emotions and escaped by taking on projects, etc. How do I balance this?"

Schedule time to GAL and schedule time to mediate on emotions. Did therapist say to "wallow" in emotions?

"how do I reply to "I hope we can still be friends"?"

Is there an urgency to responding? Take time and think about how you feel about it. If W asks again, tell her you are thinking about if you can. It is simply the truth, right?

A couple other things that may or may not be of use:

You used 'frustration' at the beginning a lot. Having done the same thing, I know how it comes across to others and it isn't 'frustration', it is anger. You need to figure out how to handle your actions when frustrated. The first step is admitting that you get angry.

Porn. It gives the impression that everyone is doing it all the time except you. They aren't. And those people you've seen in those videos that look like they are having such a great time? They are some of the loneliest people on the planet. Do you know what the drug usage rate is among porn actors? Netflix has a few documentaries about the porn industry. When you feel weak about staying away, check one out instead.


me: 45 W:45
M 20 years
T 22 years
S14, S13, S11, D9
BD 2/28/14
D papers served 3/3/14
I moved out 3/15/14
MC start 4/2/14
I moved in 6/2/14
D suit withdrawn 6/30/14
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Zues126 Offline OP
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Thanks Nettles. You're absolutely right on the anger part. It's like my therapist, he hates when I call it 'anxiety'. He says it's fear. Likewise, I do have anger. I've been trying really hard to let it go, but it's not always easy to know when I'm letting it go vs. burying it.

One thing I'm trying to do is document my angry thoughts, then try really hard to understand my STBX's point of view on those issues and the role I played in it. It turns out one of the reasons I have had such a hard time validating her point of view in the past is that I was threatened. Co-dependency/self-loathing/neediness- it made me believe that if I let my partner copilot the ship I wouldn't get what I needed. Which is true to a point, but only because I needed more than is reasonable. I am trying to grow stronger on my own so next time I'm in an R I can allow my partner equal voice without being so terrified about the situation.

As for the "I hope we can stay friends" thing, you're right again. No need to reply. Tonight I was over to see the children and there were some brief friendly exchanges. Nothing more than how you'd treat a neighbor, but that's a big step from not communicating. And the text message exchanges are new since Friday. So if nothing else it's a step towards an amicable divorce and an effective co-parenting relationship.

My DB coach told me there are 4 steps. 1) let the dust settle, 2) form a new relationship that's NOT a marriage but instead a good co-parenting partnership based on autonomy, good will, and respect, 3) romance, 4) reconciliation. Basically it's a win to get to step two. Not every divorced couple does. And if I do, there is no going to step 3 without a LOT of time spent rebuilding trust and showcasing changes that I MUST make. Of course, there are no guarantees that it will go beyond step 2. But if it did that is the road.

So I feel the dust is starting to settle (probably a bit more for her but I've done a good job acting sane). So we're starting on step 2. And for the friendship thing, there is no immediate concern about boundaries because 'friendly neighbor' is the right tone for at least a while longer. I am talking with my DB coach on Thursday, I will ask her opinion about how to handle it if STBX starts looking for anything beyond the role of a neighbor. I doubt that will happen anytime soon but want to be prepared.

In the meantime I will continue to work on myself, be the best parent I can be, and showcase my 180s during our interactions. I've done a good job so far in terms of not doing anything destructive, but it's been easy as there hasn't been much face to face contact. Hoping that my foundation strengthens so I don't make any blunders/backslides and pass any 'tests' thrown my way.

On the note of personal growth...yes, I'm still off porn. Not expecting a medal, but after 20 years I surprised myself. Each day I'm getting a tiny bit stronger on my own, two steps forward, one back, it's a journey. There are some real low moments, but more and more those are moments and not constants. It's been a big help to know that worst case scenario we will have a respectful co-parenting relationship. It's not what I want but that is something I'm VERY grateful for. Thank you all for the feedback and support!


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Jun 2014
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I'm having one of those nights. Exactly 5 weeks from BD.

Am I doing better? Overall, probably. I'm getting through the days at work without too much distraction. I'm having some good times with my friends and family.

But I miss my STBX terribly. I feel so much love for her and wish I could share it. Even when things were tough being together meant a lot to me.

I have just felt weak and whiny. Very angry the last few days. I guess I'm doing good getting in touch with my feelings (although my therapist says anger is just pain that's easier to handle as anger). I'm angry that she would throw our marriage away, that the world seems to support that choice, and that I was dealt a losing hand in terms of me not finding a way to make it work with her. It seems like men these days are obsolete, once kids are born the man is out, got the sperm and child support, I'm now disposable. My confidence is low because I just can't even picture a woman actually wanting a man right now.

I know that's not at all accountable. I was crazy during our R and it was past her ability/willingness to cope. We all have problems, I didn't handle them well at all. And the next minute after I get mad I feel terrible for the hurt I caused now and then and just have love for her and wish she does well. I play the song "Better Things" by the Kinks and cry.

Bond asked me once what I brought to the R. I don't know. What can anyone bring? I have a lot of love in my heart. I believe in our wedding vows. I always provided for my family and allowed her to raise the kids, her lifelong goal. And even when things were tough enough that I felt like leaving (at one point I felt like a single guy that paid my entire income in child support and couldn't date other women) I stayed because I believed that we'd get through and it would be worth it. I've been gifted in many ways and am top .1% of everything I do. But my intensity and high expectations were too unreasonalbe.

I'm not breaking from my goals. Even though I'm lonely I'm not going back to porn. I'm not reaching out to STBX. I understand that she's in a different spot and needs a life without me. I'm trying to work on my 180s (less intense/less angry, focus on needs of others such as my children, validate and see past my POV, get in touch with my emotions and live more in the present). And I've been doing all of this in our contacts.

Just wanted to say this road is really hard, lonely, and heartbreaking. You all already know that. But had to tell someone because I'm a bit low right now.

CLIFF NOTES: Detach backslide, acceptance backslide to anger/depression. POSITIVE: Not letting emotions control behavior, staying strong/mature and working on healthier activity such as journaling in this post, praying for strength, reflecting on how I can grow from this, and being APPRECIATIVE for what the universe has given me.

Good night and wish you all well.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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Zeus you made me cry. I posted that I was in a funk and wanted to talk to my W. I miss her and what I thought the relationship was. I don't want to feel like this but this is our consequences of our actions and maybe they will see it. Hope is a dangerous thing. It will drive a man to do things that he wouldn't normally do. My buddy told me that tonight. It's true. If my wife gave me an inch of her saying she wants to work it out if I robbed a bank I would. I am low right now and I am stronger than that. I want a new relationship with my wife. I am going to start looking at her as the neighbor and just be nice. Thank you for your post. We have a lot of similar parts of us that we have to fix to be able to live ourselves and I am just glad I am not alone.


ME 31 / W 35
M 3 / T 7
S 2 / S 14 D 5 / D 8

ME MOVED OUT 06/07/14
W THINKS D WOULD BE BEST FOR EVERYONE 7/2/14
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LONG POST BUT LIFE CHANGING DAY. PLEASE READ IF YOU CAN AS I HOPE FOR FEEDBACK AND TO SEE IF I CAN HELP ANYONE IN MY SPOT. TWO PARTS. PART ONE IS A SYNOPSIS. PART TWO IS THE CYCLE IN WHICH IT PLAYED OUT BOTH INTERNALLY AND IN MY RELATIONSHIP. IT RESEMBLED BI-POLAR BUT WAS ACTUALLY JUST A DESTRUCTIVE PATTERN. NOT PERFECT, BUT FOR MY FIRST DRAFT IT ISN'T BAD AND TIES TOGETHER SEVERAL OF MY POSTS.

SYNOPSIS:
I met with my therapist today and think I uncovered the source of my low self-worth, fear of abandonment, co-dependency, pretty much the whole picture. It is DISSOCIATION!!! Basically, when I was young I went through some scary and intense times in my house. Long story short, I decided I didn’t want to deal with emotions, and instead lived in my head. I told myself I didn’t feel anything. And it worked…to a point.

The problem is that those emotions didn’t go away. It was like the 11 year old child inside of me that needed love, attention, comfort, nourishment, etc, got beat for being a pest and locked away in the closet. This hurt myself, but I didn’t look at it because I stayed too busy.

So low self worth…I never validated my OWN emotions. Fear of abandonment…I abandoned MYSELF! Read through the cycles below and watch how it played out.

Lately I’ve been trying to get more in touch with my emotions. They’re not fun to deal with, but I’m not running from them. I’m going to feel them and be strong enough to deal. I’m going to live in the real world. It’s not fun to be mortal but I can’t live in a fantasy world anymore.

And I’m proud of myself. I hurt but I’ll be OK. I’m not perfect but I’m special. And I’m excited to learn that by facing my emotions I don’t have to live in fear of crashing, fear of rejection, and fear of self loathing. It’s the first time in my life I haven’t been afraid and I feel great! I’m honestly not afraid of my STBX never changing her mind, because I’m learning I can handle life on life’s terms.

To be fair, even writing all this is a bit ‘manic’, but I will now sit with it for a few minutes and be ok with the stillness, the pain, the sorrow. I can handle it. And I am starting to like who I am because I’m taking the steps I need to take. Thank you for sharing my journey.

DESTRUCTIVE PERSONAL CYCLE:
• Lack of my own self-worth. Due to impossibly high standards I feel like I’m not good enough.
• Dissociation. With underdeveloped ability to deal with my own emotions I repress them and then run from them. I do this by using:
• Grandiose ideas. I set tremendous goals for myself, then charge towards them with crazy intensity. The faster I move the more I distract myself from my pain. So I move fast. I tend to be ‘manic’ and can easily stay up half the night with racing thoughts, writing many pages planning my moves, etc. I live in a fantasy world in which I’m going to become a world champion in my sport. Watching porn. Etc.
• Fear. Because I have learned by experience I can run from my emotions but cannot hide I grow terrified of the inevitable crash. This fear drives me even faster.
• Facing fear. Tired of living in fear I try to ‘face my fears’ but putting myself in scary situations. My therapist told me fear controlled me, not because I run from it, but because I run towards it. Even faster still.
• Depression. Eventually the feelings catch up and I can no longer outrun them. No matter how hard I tried I can’t get away. Not only am I down, I feel hopeless and ready to give up.

DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP CYCLE:
• Fear of abandonment. I feel something is terribly wrong with me and I’m unworthy of love. I hope there is someone to prove me wrong and love me anyway.
• Co-dependency. I find a woman with equally low self-worth thinking she’ll validate me, fix the pain in my heart, and won’t ever leave because she needs me as much as I need her.
• High expectations. I have impossible expectations of her as she can’t fill the hole in my heart.
• Rejection/depression/anger. I feel soul crushed that she doesn’t meet those expectations because “if she loved me she would”. I get hurt and angry. I withdraw to protect myself from further rejection and to manipulate her with emotional abuse to give me what I think I need.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
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Zues126 Offline OP
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I do recognize that I am being grandiose (thinking I have it solved and I've found Nirvana suddenly) and manic (high energy, long writing). So I will have a slice of humble pie. Life is tricky. But it's a step. Now to go sit with some pain! smile


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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