Hmmm...ok, let me try to drill into this planning thing some more.
H and I have had essentially 5 dates thus far (3 lunches, 1 dinner and the beach visit the other day). He initiated all the 3 lunches, I initiated and planned the dinner out and then you know how the beach visit played: I reached out to him to basically say 'hope your enjoying your day' and then HE invited me to the beach. So the initiating has definitely been more tipped towards him. It's a 4/5 ratio to be exact ;-)
Now the planning of specifically *what* we will do when we get together, that is often me. So he'll invite me to lunch and then say 'where do you want to go?' I'll make suggestions or if I say 'where do you want to go' he'll say 'wherever you want is fine with me'. I guess *maybe* this bothers him, but honestly he really has never complained about it. He knows I'm a planner and likely have a million different ideas of things to do and places to go. And as I mentioned, I think initially it was something that attracted him and if I do say 'can you just decide this time' he will.
I'm with you in that I would also be resentful and concerned if I was the one always *initiating* getting together, but being the one to plan *what* we do doesn't really bother me. I hope that helps clarify. Maybe there's something more here that I need to think about but I feel like I'm struggling to see it, especially since he has never expressed dissatisfaction in this aspect of our relationship.
I will think about it some more, thanks again for your feedback.
M: 42 H: 43 M: 8 years S7 and D4 H has D19 and S25 from previous M Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA 1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail 2nd separation: 5/1/14
I'm with you in that I would also be resentful and concerned if I was the one always *initiating* getting together, but being the one to plan *what* we do doesn't really bother me. I hope that helps clarify. Maybe there's something more here that I need to think about but I feel like I'm struggling to see it, especially since he has never expressed dissatisfaction in this aspect of our relationship.
I would think this will be an excellent topic to discuss with H and get his thoughts about this. You might be surprised to hear that he may have issues with this and is afraid to broach the topic out of fear that he'll upset you.
Just maybe...maybe...he'll say that he'd like to share some of the planning responsibility and having a voice in this process.
Approach this discussion with an open-mind and not try to counter him with "but" or counterpoints.
Wonka, I would love to speak to H about this (and many other things about our R!). But am wondering if it's the right time. Remember that whole email I was going to send asking him for feedback about various things? It was in a similar vain. And everyone was like no, no, no! That's just too much too soon.
I guess I don't get when/if we should be trying to discuss/tackle potential R issues. I'd be glad to but *I'm* afraid to broach things!
M: 42 H: 43 M: 8 years S7 and D4 H has D19 and S25 from previous M Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA 1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail 2nd separation: 5/1/14
Asking for feedback can be a timing thing and can come about in snippets instead of all in one fell swoop...that'll overwhelm him, for sure!
After the details have been ironed out for the next outing...you can ask H in a light way, "Hey...I am glad we got to do this. It was fun getting this together. I am wondering how you would feel if you take on the next event yourself...I am sure you'll be very creative. What do you think?"
Sit back and listen. It is not R talk. It is allowing space for H to express his thoughts and it shows him that you're willing to let go of the "planner/planning" reins.
It is important to keep in mind:
-It is the moment/situation -It is the context -It is HOW you present information -It is how you react to H's thoughts
An email with bullets about your relationship is intimidating and heavy/burdensome and comes across as - you guessed it - controlling and suffocating.
A light, warm "Hey! This was fun. Let's do it again. Where we goin'?" (But exactly how Wonka worded it) is precisely how to handle the discussion with the situation being what it is now. It's warm, friendly - even flirty a little - and fun! Like dating people!
The main reason I mention this particular subject, mdu, is that in many marriages, women take control of things for so long that our H's begin to take a backseat. And after years of this, it LOOKS like everybody's happy - or comfortable - with how things are going. When really, it's mostly just going along to get along.
I've watched my H, in particular, take complete charge of our dates the past two months. And he's really challenging me to step outside my comfort zone. And it's been AWESOME!!!! He, come to find out, LOVES planning our dates (who knew?!?). So far, we have been to a live band/bar at a whitewater rafting center, we've listened to an awesome reggae band and we are about to take a moonlight canoe trip out to an isolated island for dinner/drinks as part of a beer tour. AND, we are planning to go zip lining (my idea) and paddle boarding (H's idea - which SHOCKED me!!!!) soon.
I never knew H wanted to try new things. I was always in the driver's seat before, and I was too busy, too overwhelmed at home and too dang tired to plan anything creative. And there he was, all that time, with a million ideas of things to do. I just never said: "Hey, man. Take the lead. Let's do something fun!" And I also had to change my attitude about the things he pitched. Thankfully, I did because I've been having a ball with him, being adventurous!
Let go a little, girlfriend. You never know what your H can pull out of his sleeve!
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
I will ask my H his secret, Maybell!! I know he picks up a trendy magazine with goings-on in the area. That's a great place to start!
mdu, I came back on to add:
It could be that your H isn't the planning type at all, and it would add a lot of pressure to him to plan and organize a date. BUT, YOU asking him shows, as Wonka said, you're willing to give him a voice and let go of the driver's seat for a while.
Just an observation, but I've never met a man who likes to feel he's being led by his wife.
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
Thx, Train, point taken. I will definitely find the right way to explore this with H. Truly, he is NOT a planner. He and I have discussed this often. However, he also said that he stopped initiating/planning dates in our M because they weren't enjoyable, we would end up fighting (certainly not always but enough that he lost interest :-( ) Anyways, maybe with enough fun ones under our belt he will get more motivated to initiate and PLAN something for us. As always, I'll keep you all posted.
M: 42 H: 43 M: 8 years S7 and D4 H has D19 and S25 from previous M Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA 1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail 2nd separation: 5/1/14
You are CLEARLY really smart, mdu, and I think you're on the brink of realizing soon (if you don't already) that who you THINK your H is - yes, even who he has SAID he is - may not be who he really is. In fact, many men will tell nagging, controlling wives what they believe the wife WANTS to hear (or what their wives have TRAINED them to feel/say).
Let me be blunt, at the risk of sounding harsh: if you knew your H the way you think you know him, you wouldn't be here right now.
I feel I may be beating a dead horse here on one simple issue, but it's one that, through what I'm gleaning from your own journaling, is really nagging at me (and I feel it may be SO fundamental to what's going on in your M), so I'll say it again: what was happening in your M before ... who you AND your H were before ....... (listen carefully to this) ....... WAS NOT WORKING.
Who YOU were before? The driver? The planner? It wasn't working. Though it wasn't AT ALL the correct, moral way to handle his unhappiness, he cheated on you, mdu. And in doing so, he was looking for something different. He was RUNNING from what you were giving him.
STOP making excuses for it. It doesn't matter if you handle project management in your career. It doesn't matter if you're so efficient that you can bake apple pies while hoola-hooping on your toes and cooking gourmet meals for your kids while watching them squirt water guns at 100 neighborhood kids while cleaning baseboards while organizing bookshelves and watering your freaking petunias. It doesn't matter if your H told you - when your M was like a dead freaking fish - that he's "not a planner." It. was. not. working. He. was. not. happy. He looked outside of your marriage for something DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU WERE OFFERING.
Truly, he is NOT a planner. He and I have discussed this often.
Stop convincing yourself that you know who he is or that you can believe what he told you during your crappy marriage. You DON'T know who he is. And maybe he WASN'T being honest about who he is. Should I point out the obvious here about your H's truthfulness?!?
Your H MAY have told you he wasn't "a planner" because - even to those of us on these boards, if I'm being honest - you seem to have to control *everything*. You have ALL the answers and ALL the excuses. Yet, you say your H "is NOT a planner" ... but then tell us that he has planned 4 out of 5 of your most recent "excursions," and you've been immensely happy and giddy and hopeful after them.
Am I confused?!?
The entire point of DBing, mdu, is to step outside the box and challenge our own way of thinking. It's to say: You know what? My M - most everything I thought and did - wasn't working. Maybe I don't know my H the way I think I did. Maybe I lost MYSELF along the way. Maybe the way I was doing things wasn't what I should be doing if I want to maintain my M.
I may be stepping wayyyyyyy out on a limb here with very limited information (only what I know from experience and research and what you've shared), but I think you have shown a pattern of making *a lot* of broad assumptions about who your H is and what he feels and what he's good at and what he's not good at ... ALL based on what your M was - and who you think your H was, based sometimes on who your H SAID he was - during your M and perhaps *before he cheated on you*.
You're forgetting to "think with a beginner's mind," one of the first principles of DBing.
You THINK you know your H so well, mdu. But you DON'T. Again, if you did, you wouldn't be here.
I've watched as you've rejected words of wisdom here. And I've watched as it has gotten you closer to your H. But there's *something* that keeps making him back away, right at the time you two have gotten soooooo close.
I can't help but feel it has something to do with you "driving" and assuming he's incapable of doing the same.
I think he's waiting to drive.
Why do you feel he can't take charge? Because he said he can't? When you guys were married? In that same marriage that fell apart?
Give the man some freaking rope, mdu. Give him a chance! Give him the freaking driver's seat!!! And stop making excuses.
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
Wow, just wow. I don't even know how to begin to process all of this.
M: 42 H: 43 M: 8 years S7 and D4 H has D19 and S25 from previous M Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA 1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail 2nd separation: 5/1/14
