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7.5 months ago my fairy-tale marriage of 18 years took a major nose dive. My 42 year old husband returned from a business trip to tell me that he and a 30-year old married co-worker had started a "friendship." He thought that his honesty with me would mean that it wasn't cheating, and he also thought that I would be happy that he was so happy! He claimed he had always wanted diversity in our marriage (although he never wanted/wants me to have the same diversity).

Anyway - as he continued to explain to me that I had always over-romanticized our relationship (what?) and he thought he should buy his friend a computer ("she needs one to correspond with me!") and a car ("her car is so crummy!") I realized that this was not the sane, rational man that I had married. MLC? Seemed like it. In addition to this lovely new "friend" (with whom the relationship has become physical), he was struggling with the loss of his libido, fear of losing his parents, many physical aches and pains, and disapproval of his body image. (He didn't buy her a computer or a car, btw....)

Over the last 7.5 months I've made the resolution to stand for my marriage, but sometimes I think I'm losing my marbles. We have two kids who are teenagers and awesome. They wonder sometimes, "What's up with Daddy," especially when he's acting strangely. Otherwise, I think they're pretty in the dark. They know I'm depressed.

I've done many, many things incorrectly. I've told him to end the relationship more than once (never with an "or else,"). I've definitely cried in front of him. I've DEFINITELY become depressed and shell-shocked. When he asked how he could get his happy wife back, I told him that he would have to end the relationship with the OW. (This was back in December, and his reaction to that was, "But it would make her sad!")

The ride is a roller coaster. He has told me that he is less happy now than he was a year ago. He hates that I consider him a liar (he has definitely hidden the truth from me which is a GIANT change from our relationship before all of this happened). He still sometimes tells me that he wishes that he could talk to me about his relationship with OW (absolutely not). He talks about our future all the time, and has never asked for a divorce...so in that way he's not like many of the MLCers. About 6 weeks ago he put a self-imposed travel ban for work on himself....and he said he was much happier being at home with the family. That said, today he is on a trip in the UK, and she's there, too. Knowing that neither one of them have to return at night to a spouse is making my stomach curdle.

I made some boundaries early on...No texting her while I was in the room (family public spaces like the kitchen or the family room). He followed that. When she was traveling to our city he was to still come home to his family at the same time of night (rather than hang out with her) - and he did that, too. I wasn't sure what to do about physical boundaries, because that's something that's been shifting over time. Initially it was just an EA. Then they kissed. Then they stopped kissing. Now I think they're physical again. If I'm not supposed to ask, how do I make physical boundaries? Do they just push him away? I've recently been tested since I was suspicious about his behavior...I've come up clean still.

Other things that I'm doing right....I've taken up yoga, which is lovely. I have reached out to a few friends and discovered I have an amazing network of people who understand why I'm standing for my marriage and help me get through some really tough days. I started therapy, but I'm not sure I love my therapist. I've never done therapy before, and I sort of feel like I'm spinning my wheels there. My therapist basically nods and tells me I'm doing great, but if that's true, why am I still walking to the back corner of my back yard and sobbing from time to time? (He hates the fact that I'm in therapy, and thinks that I should be able to talk to him about why I'm so sad. Whenever I cave and tell him about what's on my mind he goes totally silent for about 24 hours. It's been several weeks since we tried that...)

SO - in reading about MLC in DR, it looks like I'm doing the right thing by being patient and I've stopped making demands. (I skipped ahead to the chapter on MLC in The Divorce Remedy.) I need to figure out the lovingly distance part, since one of his gripes is that I didn't pay enough attention to him before this, and that I always prioritized the kids. How do I show that I'm willing to work on that and happy to enjoy doing things with him, just not while he's got this piece on the side? And is there any information about the transition out of MLC? I sort of wonder if I will know that he's moving out of it because at that point he will ask me how I am doing rather than just report on how he is doing. (The selfishness of MLC is just astonishing. Sometimes it feels like I have three teenagers.)

Any thoughts on how to just get through the next few days while he's "working" with OW? He is likely to message me throughout the day...He always gets upset that I become "cold" before his business trips. Frankly, I think he's projecting his own guilt onto me. Anyway - not really sure how to 180 the messaging on the trip, other than NOT respond If I could figure out how to do that in a lovingly distant without appearing cold or apologetic, I would do it! I don't jump on every message the second it comes in, but early on he told me he liked corresponding with her because she was so attentive to him and made him feel great. No duh!

Lastly, special thanks to my HS roommate who steered me to these books. She's a therapist in TX and has done workshops with Michele. I'm so glad she referred me to these books. They make sense and give me hope.

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Welcome to the board

Get out and GAL.

DETACH.

Believe none of what he says and half of what he does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Your H is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.

USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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I read and re-read the section about MLC in DR....I'm confused and need some clarification.

My husband had an EA that turned into PA with a co-worker. In May he said he would "end it" and stopped traveling to the city where she lives. That was about six weeks ago. But as I mentioned before, they're both in the same city right now which is making me sick.

Believe none of what he says and half of what he does. Got it. It's likely he didn't end it as he told me he would.

So....the DR books suggest not to talk about the affair. Don't ask questions. Don't snoop. Don't confront. Don't beg, don't cry.....Doing these things will only push him toward the OP. I've seen that in action, I know that's what happens...so, okay. Check that box. New goal for me is to not talk about the OW or the affair. Also, don't talk about OUR relationship.

One of his complaints has been that I didn't used to spend enough time with him or attention to him. I was too focused on the kids. Okay - I get that. I'll even own that--it's true.

So - in this very bizarre place right now....how do I sort this out? Act nice and pleasant and as if nothing is wrong, when things are wrong. Talking to him about OP has only sent him into dark silences for days. But acting nice and pleasant isn't really representative of where I am right now, either. He sends me messages telling me that he loves me and he wants to take me on trips to Europe (where he is now)....believe none of what he says, though....right?

This requires patience, I get it. But if I'm supposed to ignore the behavior, how do I set boundaries around it?

I've been trying to come up with baby step goals for me to work on. Like - I'd like for us to say good night to each other every night. We used to - we don't anymore. I figured that's a baby of enough step to take. Other goals include "Fidelity and honesty" - clearly not a baby step. That's a broad, overarching goal. I'd like for him to apologize for the infidelity, but that's got to happen if/when this crazy is over. That could be years away according to what I know about MLC.

We used to have so much fun together, and I'd like to have fun again. Right now I don't trust him, so it's hard to have fun. There's an element of fake it til you make it...I'll go to dinner with him, or a movie...It's awkward, but it's better than the nothing that we used to do. Are those baby steps?

Really trying to figure out how to lovingly distance myself from a man who thought I had distanced myself from him...I think it's important to do so, since I want him to return to ME and just me...but my head is spinning since my previous behavior had left him missing something before.

Ah...it's not my fault, but it is my fault. Love is a choice, fidelity is a choice....

Head is spinning.....

He comes home in a few days, and then we go to a family reunion. Gah. I feel like Alice in Wonderland and nothing makes sense. Seriously - this is its own special kind of hell.

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"Believe none of what he says and half of what he does..."

He's been away from home on a trip for nearly two weeks. Today he sent me a message that said, "Home is where you are."

Believe none of what he says....

Which is why now these messages make me cry.

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Okay....Help me work through this paradox:

When dealing with affairs, you cannot bring up the affair. You don't talk about it because it simply pushes them away further. You can't make demands about it. You just have to let it run its course.

My husband's affair was EA, then it became PA, then EA again, then PA again (whee! Roller coaster!). The OW is married, her husband is in the dark (he was suspicious, but I guess she convinced him that nothing was going on because she tells H that her husband is okay with them being friends and being alone together).

I do not know what the current status is. I've stopped asking, per the DR rules. About six weeks ago H put a self-imposed moratorium on travel to her city, about which he would occasionally grumble was bad for his job. (Not my problem....Wasn't my request....He did that all by himself.)

That said...what do I do with an H who still wants to be lovey dovey with me? If I withdraw, he gets mad at me for being "cold." If I play along, then I'm allowing cake eating. How do I make myself the gold bar that he realizes he really wants without talking about the relationship?

Our sexual relationship in the past was very active - I don't think we ever turned one another away. To do so now would be incredibly weird. H also continues to plan "dates" for us...He takes me out to dinner far more often now than he used to. He wants to go on a trip together in August (having just gone away with me in February and in May). I don't know if guilt is driving this behavior or if he's trying to keep me from detaching. He knows the affair is making me crazy, and this makes him very angry and depressed.

My biggest issue is clearly detaching. I don't know how to do it without tipping our cards to the two kids, who still think that everything is stable and normal in our house. I could move into a different bedroom, or ask him to leave the house, but I'm not ready to call for separation or divorce. I don't want those things, and the DR book says that this is a Last Resort where you have to be sure you could live with either option.

Thoughts? Is there a way to do this without upending the apple cart for the kids? Or do I just keep settling into this yoga pose and breathing through the discomfort...Waiting out the affair?

He sent me a message from the UK last night a 5:50 asking if I was awake. I probably screwed up when my response was, "Are you meaning to message me?" (In theory, he could have been messaging anyone from work who is on that side of the pond...not just OW.) He responded, "Strange question?" I replied, "For you or for me?" He responded again, "For you." And I said, "Ha! Well, it's 5:50 here, so I thought it was a strange question!" He said he'd forgotten about the time. (sigh)

The worst part is just not trusting him anymore. Good heavens, I would love to get that part of my life back.

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The whole point of DB is not to win back a spouse. It is to work on yourself to become a spouse only a fool would leave. I would continue to give your H space and let him work through his MLC. In the mean time work on yourself. You said he had asked how he can get his happy wife back. Well, work on making yourself happy. If you are sad and depressed he is not going to want to be with you. You have an opportunity to be someone he cannot live without. Think back to when you two first met and how you were. Try and become that person again.

I am sure some people with more MLC experience will chime in soon, but in the mean time keep your head up and best of luck to you!


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
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Originally Posted By: Pilot
The whole point of DB is not to win back a spouse. It is to work on yourself to become a spouse only a fool would leave.


Yeah. I'm really stuck in my own head right now. I have spent so long being the great wife and great mom and I'm so shellshocked that I can't get out of my own way.

Need to find something else to do.

Considering volunteering at the local animal shelter!

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There ya go! I know what you mean about not being able to get out of your own way. You will find most people here have shared the same emotions you are going through so they really understand how you feel. I found it super helpful to read older threads in here. From start to finish. It lets me see how things could possibly progress for me. Amazingly many of the stories all follow a similar pattern. Learn from what others have done right and try to avoid what they did wrong.

Post often and post in other people's threads so they get to know you and read your story, and thereby offer support to you.

Best of luck!


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
Divorced 5-19-16
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I am sorry that you suddenly find yourself in this situation. However, thankfully you have wonderful support from the online community, Michele's books and friends. But, you still have so many questions that need real pro-marriage answers. Please call a Divorce Busting coach to help you sort this out. You mentioned that your therapist is giving you sympathy, but, not any real strategies or time proven methods. That's what you need right now. You need to act fast and with the knowledge that what you say and do is correct. In additon to getting the support and guidance every step of the way as you go through this marriage saving process. I urge you call me, so that we may discuss the Divorce Busting coaching program
303-444-7004.


Roberta, Resource Coordinator
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Phew....It's night time over in Europe. This is normally when H and I talk to one another, and have talked to one another every night for the last two weeks.

Tonight he is silent.

And I'm letting him be silent.

But, of course, I fear he is silent because he is with OW, who was in the UK this week for work as well.

There's nothing I can do about this. And, a new behavior for me would be to NOT confront him about my fear that he's with her.

Another new behavior (per the DR book) will be for me to be calm and pleasant when he returns on Monday. I'm going to have to dig deep for that, too.

Where have people gotten the strength to do this? Seriously?

Has anyone else done the coaching?

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Just re-read Pilot's cheer to detach in another thread.

Deep breath. I wish I knew how to do it! I feel like it's looking at the edge of a cliff toward a free fall. My stomach is all in knots.

Seriously - it's GOT to get better than this.

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Puzzling over this:

H and I are sexually active. I do not know the status of the affair right now - and I'm NOT supposed to ask.

So.....

What do I do about that?

Do I set a boundary about sexual activity if I'm acting as if there is no affair?

H has not threatened to leave the house in over six months, and he actively talks about our future both short term and long term. He may be cake eating (I honestly don't know right now).

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Okay -

Have read and read and read and read! And now I have to put away the books and rules and hope that I've studied hard enough for this test, because H comes home today! (He's been on a 17 day trip with our D to Europe with a school tour.)

Here's what I've learned about how to help MYSELF:

1) STOP MOPING AROUND. It a) doesn't make me feel any better and b) isn't attractive to ANYONE. Not to H, not the kids, to the neighbors or friends.

In the immortal words of The Incredibles, "YOU ARE ELASTICGIRL! PULL YOURSELF TOGETHER!"

2) STOP TALKING ABOUT OW.

Don't ask questions. Don't insinuate. Don't snoop.

And the side note to that is, stop THINKING about her so much.

She's not worth the karmic energy. Let it go. (You know some of you are singing now.)

3) DETACH

This one is a little tricky for me...I'm going to go forward as DETACHING from the sitch,

But - I'm going to continue to NOT initiate conversations with H, certainly online.

This is tricky because he has told me that he felt like I didn't pay enough attention to him, didn't appreciate the things that he did for me and the family, and didn't spend time with him. Sounds like he and I could both read the Five Love Languages. I am an Acts of Service love giver for sure....Will need to figure out how to LOVINGLY distance in this situation. Tricky.

4) GAL

On the list: call about volunteer opportunities at two local places!
Work on my business website so I can get some more clients
Keep going to yoga
Maintain my new list of restaurants that I want to try (I love to go out to eat, and never really used to do it! No time like the present!)
Go shopping for some clothes to fit my ever-improving, strong bod!
Get and manicure and a pedicure this week!
Continue to walk the dog at night - HE LOVES IT! (We have a big yard and he doesn't need a walk, but it's nice for both of us!)

5) Goals for My Marriage
This one has been the hardest for me, because I know I need to break it down into manageable pieces. My goal is to return to a relationship that is based on Honesty and Fidelity - we don't have that right now. (We have a relationship where he trusts me and wants me to be his lifetime companion, but my needs of honesty and fidelity are still in limbo...)

That is WAY too big of a goal to have right now.

So...

Right now my goal is to become the wife that anyone would be a fool to treat badly, but also to become a woman who can stand on her own two feet and say, "I will not allow you to treat me this way, and if you do so, the ramifications will be x."

My goal is to be better at establishing boundaries with H. He and I never needed them before...but we're learning all about that now.

I'm not at a point yet where I can execute the Last Last resort. So - I will have to get to that point. Baby steps!

LAST BUT NOT LEAST

I need to start thinking in a positive light. I have spent 8 months throwing negative energy at this thing, and it's definitely not moved things in a positive direction. Enough. (And so not my style, by the way...)

So - focus on myself in the present moment and the gift that it is. Enjoy our two awesome children and continue to help them grow into the strong, great young adults that they are becoming. And hope to nurture the ashes of the phoenix....Because stamping all over the ashes may extinguish the embers which I don't want to do. Giving them a little space and air may provide enough oxygen to let that puppy burst back gloriously.....Here's hoping!

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Okay....As Desiderata says, the world is unfolding as it should.

Got an email today that a person for whom I've done quite a lot of volunteering is leaving his job. Called his boss and said, "So - is the position filled?"

It's not.

Might be an interesting opportunity for me, and I was encouraged to apply! I wonder if I can balance it with my consulting business.

H is back and monstering a bit. I was a little late getting to the airport and he was totally grumpy about it. (On the plus side, I put on a cute outfit, and a little lipstick and eyeliner...And frankly folks, I look pretty good.) Seriously - I don't EVER remember him being so grumpy. Even D said, "Hey - we've been together for 5 minutes. Let's not fight!" It's weird, but I'm not letting it bother me. I just went and did ironing and my own thing. He finally asked if I would come and look at some of his photos from his trip with D. Sure!

Now he's watching soccer (and asked if I would come watch with him). I told him I'd watch some of the game, but I had some other things to do first.

Like.....work on my resume (which I didn't say, but I have to do!).

I do want to watch the game, and I'm happy to spend time with him, but I need to pace myself!

Boy, though...as he was railing about this that and the other, I had to take a very deep breath and NOT blow up at him!

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Sorry - one last note about today, but WHO IS THIS MAN? He is all over the place today.

He asked me to watch the soccer game with him, and I took my time getting there. When I arrived, he grumbled, "You're 20 minutes late for our date."

"Oh," I cheerfully replied.

"But you're late. You should value your time with your husband..."

Yeah. Okay. Because you value our marriage so much that you have a "friendship" with a woman that you know makes me very, very unhappy.

But I didn't say that! I was pleasant. I enjoyed the soccer game. I smiled and was friendly and engaged--just not in anything about a "date."

Seriously - this behavior is new for him. Of course, me being late is new, too.

Interesting. This is going to be interesting to watch. I'm glad I had two weeks to really read DB and DR and process this.

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MLP, I'm sorry you haven't gotten more feedback yet.

I read your initial posts carefully and skimmed the second page. I'm glad you read the whole book rather than mainly the MLC section.

I wouldn't worry about diagnosing MLC and identifying stages. That's kind of a cheeseless tunnel. As obvious as these MLCs look to us, that may not be how he's experiencing all this and since he's not behaving rationally or fairly you won't be able to know how he IS experiencing it all.

He has been very rough on you and I'm so sorry for that. Your sitch is very new so it's going to be a roller coaster for a good long while. Next week marks the one year anniversary of my BD#1 and I'm only just now learning calm. It took me much longer to find DR than you and it's fair to say I probably wouldn't have believed it applied to me any sooner anyway. So good for you for dealing with your stuff head on so promptly.

Good for you for standing up for yourself and good luck with the job opportunity!

I was wondering if you've done much thinking about your M to see how you got here?


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

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Maybell -

Have I done much thinking about my marriage? You betcha.

When the bomb was initially dropped on me, he told me he loved his life, he loved his marriage, he loves his family, he loves me. This was just "additive." He claimed he had been wanting it since the day we got married. He'd been TRYING to tell me in a roundabout way for years.

Before Bomb Drop though he had started to say things like, "I want to whiten my teeth," "I need to pick new glasses that make me look younger," "I need to lose 20 lbs.," "I want to ride a bike century," "We need to start a weightlifting plan," "We have to have my parents over for dinner once a week because they're going to die!"

We fought almost never. We were best friends. (I don't argue much with my friends either - I'm pretty good with just agreeing to disagree.) I gave him a lot of space to do his own thing - so not co-dependent. Oddly, it was when I started pursuing some of my own activities (like long-distance running) that he started to get a little bit weird. He tells people still that he needed to take up running because he had to keep me from running away.

I now say he was my best friend. I just don't think that a real friend would do this. He is horrified that I use the past tense. He has tearfully explained to me that giving up the "friend" would be sad because she is such a good friend. I explained that I didn't think so....She KNEW how much he valued his family (she even told him that it made him so attractive to her), yet she compromises that relationship. Friends make each other better people, but these two have a relationship where they MUST lie to their spouses and friends. Does that make him a better person?

Sometimes I feel like I totally get this whole craziness as his friend...just not as his spouse. If I were watching this ONLY as his friend I could talk to him about it and it wouldn't hurt so much. Anyway - it wouldn't matter either way. It's his journey. Detach detach detach.

He has said that he has always known that he could trust me more than he could trust himself. This seems strange, because early in our relationship he was very threatened by my male friends. I learned very early on the importance of setting boundaries with other men. (A co-worker who was a friend once came on to me at an office party--he invited me to leave with him. I declined, there was no physical contact, and I ended all future contact with him.)

H has told me that I have been more worried about the kids than I was about him. I do think that's probably true--I wasn't so good at fostering our relationship. He and I would occasionally go away and he wouldn't miss the children at all, whereas I would be pining for them. I always just thought that was male/female difference, but I can see that I wasn't doing my job as a wife to make him feel good about being a man. Sex was really just sex....It was provided often, but not really initiated by me. This is now a tricky spot to be in - because I'm pretty turned off by someone who pursued physical and emotional affection elsewhere. I had never ever stood for that in any previous relationship...but I'm pretty committed to marriage. I took those vows seriously. I'm in a pickle about that.

Can I pay him more attention? I can and should, but I want the EA/PA or WHATEVER that is to be over first. Don't know when/if that's going to happen. I wonder if it will take longer because she lives in another city.

I'm not pursuing him right now - that's important...but I'm sensitive to the fact that he thinks I didn't spend enough time with him, so I'm trying to make sure I'm meeting those needs. Tricky, right?

180s for me...being pleasant rather than a wet dishrag. I had always been pleasant BEFORE, but the last 8 months have been brutal. Is it a 180 if I'm just trying to go back to being myself? Not sure!

Another 180 is not talking about the relationship. I think he lies like a flipping rug sometimes. New strategy - let it go. Don't call out the lie.

He and I used to brag about our perfect relationship to everyone who would listen. We were such good friends and really loved being with each other. He still tells lots of people that I'm his "miracle wife" (which really makes me feel a little sick, honestly). When I was so sad about the EA he scolded me, "I thought you would be happy for me...I really thought we were better friends than this." He has since said that if he were in my shoes that he couldn't handle all of this, so he does seem to be conflicted on the subject. I feel sometimes like I'm watching him do a puzzle. He's trying desperately to try to get all of these pieces to fit, but he can't do it.

So....at this point I'm hanging in there, hoping the affair will burn itself out. I'm not really eager to get to the LRT....I can't stomach the idea yet, which just means that it's not that time, I guess.

That's a LONG response to your question! LOL....

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Oh! Another thing I've been working on--and this is tricky with DB.

I have always been a go-with-the-flow type of person. I wouldn't speak up if I *really* wanted to go to a particular restaurant, because it was easier to not rock the boat. In the end, I was still getting to go out to eat, so be grateful for what I have, right? In theory, this is a good way to live life. On the other hand, it sets me up for disappointment IF I LET IT.

So here's the thing - I typically don't let it. Okay. Great.

I can only think of a few times when I've really spoken up for something that I wanted. H and I went to Europe for two weeks for our 10th anniversary. When we had our 15th anniversary, he was proposing another trip to Europe, and I said - "You know...I'd really like to go someplace else." He grumbled and said my idea wasn't really his kind of trip but OKAY. Well, we went, and he loved it, and we've gone every year for the past four years.

So fine....I spoke up for myself and we both had a great time.

Another thing that I don't do is tell the family too much of things that I want to do. We're busy. We have a zillion activities. It's nice to not add ONE MORE THING to the calendar.

But -- it means that I'm wanting to do something and not doing it. One of those things is eating out (haha - I've used that example twice!). So - I've started a list of restaurants that I want to try. I'm going to start checking them off as a part of my GAL. H can come if he wants, but he doesn't have to be a part of this. Still - I have a habit of squashing my own needs to meet the needs of everyone else. Part of that is being a mom, part of that is bending to my husband's busy hobby life....I did stop that a little bit four years ago when I took up marathon running (which required hours of training), but I'm taking that to the next level.

Basically - I'm trying to be done apologizing for liking the things that I like, but also giving those things up. Rather than be a martyr like my mother and suffer, I should just be enjoying things. Hey - my family might enjoy the same things! We just don't know! (Running is a great example though....Both H and D15 have started to run with me.)

I'm not EXPECTING anyone to join me, but I welcome their company if they'd like to come along.

The boundary thing with the A has me totally spinning my wheels however. Never ever allowed any other boyfriend to have something on the side. And I feel like I'm "allowing" this since I can't stop it. That is just totally stuck in my craw. He's TOLD me that I deserve better, and I think so, too! Grrrrrrr.....

As a general rule, I'm great with boundaries! My kids have good boundaries, I worked as a dean at a HS and I could set boundaries with teenagers no problem. It seems like when dealing with an A the advice is to ignore it. So - we set up some very basic boundaries to make the A invisible to me but still....Seriously, it makes my stomach turn.

Break on through to the other side. Break on through to the other side......

Lastly (sorry these are so long, folks), took the dog for his walk last night. Invited anyone who wanted to come along to come along. The WHOLE FAMILY went. It was kind of nice. I basically ignored Mr. Grumpalump (who was grumpy) but the kids and I laughed and laughed. I looked over at one point at Mr. Grumpalump because of something silly that D had said, and he had a little bit of a bewildered, puzzled face on. Dunno what he was thinking. I just know that I was thinking that all things considered, we are super lucky to have our kids. They're great.

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Uh oh. Long flowery email from H about how he wants to spend every moment of his life with me. Time away from me is time wasted.

This from the guy who says I over romanticized the relationship.

Nice words, but what do I do with this????

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Hi MLP,

I saw Cadet's post that you weren't getting much traffic over here; just wanted you to know I have been following along with interest.

Your H sounds like an interesting specimen!
I'd be confused too.

It's quite a ride, isn't it?

Hang on for dear life!
smile

---GG


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



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Hi MLP,

I did scan your sitch and I'm sorry you find yourself here. My opinion of your h's *flowery* email? It sounds like your h is a * flowery* writer/speaker in general. At this point I would probably shrug. Actions speak louder than words. That's just my 2 cents:)

It gets better:-)



3 kids
BD 12/15/13 (IDKIILY. )
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Georgia -

Yes - you're right. He's probably just a flowery writer/speaker in general. THANK YOU.

(UGH. I feel so played. How completely cruddy.)

Both of the kids went to the movies last night, which meant that H and I had dinner alone. In the flowery email he talked about how he just wants to sit across from me at dinner and talk to me and look at me....

Guess what he did?

He sat and read his iPad. At one point he was IMing someone (and he's not supposed to IM her when I'm in the room per an agreement MONTHS ago). Here's the thing though - I don't want to obsess anymore. a) he could have been IMing lots of people. I don't know that it was her. b) How do I detach and not ask about the affair if I'm flipping out about IM?

So, I guess I did a 180 and did nothing.

He was moving around, repositioning himself in the house. (Don't care.) I sat and did my work (he positioned himself so he could look at MY computer screen).

At one point I cheerfully suggested that we play a game together, but he declined, so I said, "Fine! No problem! I have lots of work to do anyway..."

When we went to bed he suggested that we play the game (it's an online card game) so we did, and I beat him (twice!) which makes him grumpy (whatever...I mean, I guess a 180 for me would be to throw the game and lose so that I could stroke his ego but do I really have to go to that level???). Then I went downstairs to wait for the moviegoers.

So - here's the thing. One of my goals is that we say good night to each other every night. SUPER SMALL goal. I guess I made that a goal because he sent me a list of 10 things that happy couples do and he felt so proud that we already did most of those things (seriously - what the heck with him sending me 10 things happy couples do???). One of the things was be honest with each other (missed that one, buddy). Another one was say good night every night, even when you're mad.

We definitely USED to say good night to each other every night....But we don't now. So - that's my goal.

When he was in Europe, he would IM me that he was going to bed, and I would say, "Good night." Not once did he respond good night.

Last night, I climbed into bed. He pulled me close to him and I said, "Good night." Again - no good night.

(sigh)

So, my frustration this morning is this...

I need to detach and let him go.
I need to have NO expectations of him.
I think I need to switch my goals.

Is it premature for me to make goals for US? I guess it feels like it is. This makes me feel very, very, very bummed out.

I'm just so frustrated because we used to function SO WELL together (and in his crazy brain, we still are functioning very well together). And now, I'm feeling very much like none of my needs are being met. And I can't tell him that, because it will only push him away!

So - today I'm feeling discouraged. It doesn't help that we're about to go away for a week with my dysfunctional family (yayyyyy).

I think I'll feel better once we're back and I can actually start to implement some of my GAL techniques. Right now I'm mired in organizing three teenagers (H being one of them) for a week away. Meh.

Oh - lastly...this morning we were lying in bed and chatting and he kept talking about how he's "my man." He thought he was being playful and flirty....I just felt nauseated. Again - pre-OW I would have been totally engaged in that conversation and flirted right back. Does he say to OW that he's her man, too? (Vomit.) I can definitely imagine that she's way, way, way more fun to flirt with right now than I am. Seriously - I am going to have to work on my acting skills. Gack.

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The thing about goals is that they should not be relationship oriented.

Best to make goals on things YOU can control.

Like

I will go out once a week.
I will do 25 sit ups everyday.
I will not drink alcohol

I will have a relationship with someone who is in a relationship with someone else.

You can not CONTROL him,
dont try to.

Make sense?


Last edited by Cadet; 07/03/14 01:44 PM. Reason: punctuation

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That makes total sense.

I need to take a deep breath and remember that I am a work in progress.

I wish working on myself felt better than it does right now. I guess I just have to hope that in time, it will!

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Originally Posted By: Cadet
I will have a relationship with someone who is in a relationship with someone else.
OOPS this should have said NOT

I will NOT have a relationship with someone who is in a relationship with someone else.


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Cadet -

But I AM in a relationship with someone who is in a relationship with someone else!

He is still living in my house and actively planning activities with me. His relationship with OW has gone completely covert (which is different from how he started the crazy, when he wanted me to know all about his friend and be happy for him. Bizarre. I told him to stop the relationship. Surprise! He didn't. He just stopped telling me about it because it made me so unhappy. Then I would ask or suspect and ask...and...well, we all know how this goes. It goes poorly.)

I'm not sure how to disconnect from the relationship if I'm not acknowledging the affair.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted By: MLP
Cadet - I told him to stop the relationship. Surprise! He didn't. He just stopped telling me about it because it made me so unhappy. Then I would ask or suspect and ask...and...well, we all know how this goes. It goes poorly.)

I'm not sure how to disconnect from the relationship if I'm not acknowledging the affair.

Thoughts?

You had a boundary of no relationship with OW and you, but he figured out a way to break the boundary and what was your response?
Not verbally but with your actions?

You can still only CONTROL one part of this - YOU.

Are you worried he will leave you if you confront him?

Guess what he is already gone.


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Yes, that's true...

But I think the DR book suggests that if you force the hand that you may not get them back.

So...I'm not forcing the hand--at least not today. Is that crazy? So far it has felt like the right thing to do.

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So, today I had a mani-pedi. Little something for me, and I was somewhat gregarious for a change. The people there recognized this and said it was nice to see me laughing.

Anyway, was doing a little reading about MLC while there, which made me feel okay about standing.

Then I went home. H had been sending me tons of messages and emails while I was out. I poked my head into his office to say I would be picking up dinner after I'd been home for a while. H was pretty detached...he did as he always does these days: he told me what he was in the middle of, but did not ask anything about me or my day.

And Cadet, that's when I realized that you're right! He's already gone!!!

It was like a lightning bolt.

You know what? I'm okay. Somehow this realization brought with it a remarkable sense of calm.

It explains why our best communication is email right now.

Anyway--for the first time in a really long time, I feel okay!

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MLP,

I'm struggling with boundaries as well.

It's hard to think about enforcing certain things because of the "what IFS?".

But you also need to figure out what boundaries are necessary for you to maintain your well-being. (At least what's left of it, and give yourself what you need to build that back up.)

For me, when I discovered OW, I threw H out.

Then we kind of worked on things awhile (not very well) and when he served me, I threw him out again. He's still gone.

I just couldn't take living like that.

But you may be different and able to handle it better.

So maybe it's not that you toss him into the street, but even in the same house you don't have to have a "relationship" with him.

You can choose to treat him like a boarder, but without the continental breakfast and free laundry...

You don't have to talk to him about anything other than required day-to-day things.
He doesn't get to force you to be his "pal".

So you think about what YOU NEED to feel that you're not being pushed around or harmed in any way, and then find a way to act on that.

Whether or not/how you communicate that to him is another discussion.

But it seems some boundaries have to be established here for you to feel safe and well.

---GG


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



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GoatGal -

Yes - boundaries with H are bizarre for me. We've never had them before. In talking with one of my oldest friends (who has known me since childhood and is now a therapist) this is a little weird. I have GREAT boundaries normally. I was the girl who never let a guy get to second base. I was the one who didn't smoke or break rules. (Until I did...but it was MY choice to do so...) I didn't cave to peer pressure.

So, what is up with this?

I was reading the blog today of a woman who blogs a lot about MLC...and I think I came to the realization that the reason there's no tried and true road map for this is that every situation is different. We can read these boards and find the script....We can look for the situation that seems most like ours and try to create our best fix-it plan. But ultimately the bottom line is we have to let it go...and we have to get a life of our own...and we have to be there for ourselves. The fix-it directions are that we can't fix it. Our spouse has to heal him or herself. And we can't make it go faster and we can't force it...

The universe is unfolding as it should.

Boundaries with H....I'm creating them. They look different from those of a lot of other people. I TOTALLY understand why people throw their spouse out of the house, or the bedroom, or what have you...That said - I also understand why some people decide to just step aside and try to create as normal a life as possible for the rest of the household (if that is possible!). That's what I'm doing. My H is crazy, and I can see it. I feel badly for him sometimes. I suspect that his work can see it (my suspicions for that grow every day as I interact with people on the periphery of his business). But so far - the kids seem pretty clueless. And if they can remain feeling safe, then I've done my job. Once they feel unsafe - I will re-evaluate (and talk to their schools to start establishing THEIR safety nets).

Am I safe with H? I am becoming safe because I am making MYSELF safe. When I was so terribly, terribly emotionally injured by this, I wasn't safe. For a while I was actually pretty unsafe, actually. But - I talked to my doctor. Then I sought a therapist. And I have a very small group of friends in the know. And I realized that I have a pretty amazing safety net out there - even if people don't know my situation...I can see the invisible threads of that spider web reaching out, and between my friends and my faith, I know that I have support. It's there. I know it now. I'm not actually alone.

So - boundaries. As time goes on, my boundaries may change. I think this is definitely a work in progress. Today seemed like a big change for me. But for today, I feel okay with where I am with the kids. And that's good. And I'm sure I'll re-evaluate as time goes forward and as the situation unfolds.

This is a good place (meaning this site!). I've learned a lot here and I think there's a lot of amazing support here for people who are all on different journeys, but all have similar goals. I'm so thankful for the frankness and candor of folks. I think the DR book is outstanding. I look forward to referring to it over and over again...seriously!

So - onto thinking of some good personal goals for myself now that I feel suddenly free of the burden of trying to change what I cannot change!

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Originally Posted By: MLP
I came to the realization that the reason there's no tried and true road map for this is that every situation is different.
We can read these boards and find the script....
We can look for the situation that seems most like ours and try to create our best fix-it plan.
But ultimately the bottom line is we have to let it go...and we have to get a life of our own...and we have to be there for ourselves.
The fix-it directions are that we can't fix it.
Our spouse has to heal him or herself.
And we can't make it go faster and we can't force it...


EXACTLY ^^^^^^^^

Keep reading your own advice over and over.

You got lots of TIME to do that.


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Originally Posted By: MLP


The universe is unfolding as it should.



MLP, I've caught up with your story this morning, and so much of it hits home with me. You are way ahead of me in the making peace with it department, however. Good for you.



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Just read your story as well MLP. Sounds to me like you're switched on. You know what's happening and you know can do something about it.


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I’ve just returned from a week-long family reunion with my crazy family. Phew! The stories from that are worthy of their own post…It was a relatively stressful week. That said, I’ve returned much better from the trip than I have in the past! Honestly, some of the survival techniques for the craziness that we’re enduring are applicable to other areas of life. Maybe I WILL come through this a stronger and better person! Nice!

One of my brothers (who lives in Spain) announced that he’s never seen me so happy, and that I’m having a second youth…So, I guess it looks to the outside like my life is great. Tah dah!

My H, who generally avoids my family, spent lots of time talking to my parents, even choosing to spend time with them alone. They all reported a pleasant time with one another. (To quote Caddyshack, “So I’ve got that going for me…which is nice…”)

Just before we left for the trip, the clarity of dropping the rope settled into my brain…or at least more so than before. It’s hard to drop the rope when you’re still living in the same house, (and harder when you go on vacation together!) but – mentally I got to a place where I really understand that this is his journey, and I’ve got to set out on my own. I’m prepared to do my own thing and let him wrestle his demons. I feel much more detached. Some days (some hours) are better than others, but overall, I’m feeling a little more centered. It is funny that when you start to detach, they kind of start to pursue. Interesting.

Anyway – H is on a real roller coaster. His emotions on this trip were ALL over the place. On the 12-hour car trip he was a monster to the kids (so much that the boy texted the girl, “Who has his man period?”). When with the whole family, he was much more predictable – he can put on a good face in public. Still – now that I’m starting to detach, I find myself not making conversation. He and I spent many hours quietly sitting next to each other on the beach. I read my book. He stared at the ocean. He spent hours by himself staring at the ocean. When I was ready to leave the beach, I would leave. Sometimes he would come along, sometimes he would stay, but as a general rule I’m starting to get the hang of “This is what I’m doing, you’re welcome to come along….”

Every now and then when we were sitting in the chairs he would reach out to hold my hand. He’s never been much of a hand holder before, so that’s new….

He’s also not sleeping. As a general rule, I wake up throughout the night to go to the bathroom probably two or three times. This week, he would ask me, “Where are you going?” He admits he’s not sleeping well because he has a lot on his mind. He complains about lots of physical aches and pains. He complains about getting old. He’s pretty wrapped up in his own little world – he doesn’t ask about anyone else at all but talks a LOT about himself.

The self-centeredness of MLC is a little remarkable, actually. After the bomb drop in November I lost 25 lbs in about six weeks. This week he posted a picture of me and our daughter on the beach, and a lot of people wanted to know my weight loss secret. The party line is that I’ve been running, biking and doing yoga—I don’t let people know that the weight loss is a by-product of my husband’s mid-life crisis. What he wants me to tell people though (and what he believes in his brain) is that I have this new body because he is such a great provider…His job allowed me to leave my full-time job for an at-home consulting gig two years ago. He actually wants me to say to the world that my sleek new body is thanks to my super-supportive husband….I don’t have the stomach for that just yet. I can see that it would stroke his incredibly delicate ego and it seems that this type of 180 is what he needs. Gotta dig deep for that one. But seriously – he is looking for validation for being a great provider. Gah! (Wonka - I'll have to read your Validation Cheat Sheet!)

One night the 15 year old girl had a pretty big meltdown in front of the whole family. Afterwards I invited her to go for a walk with me to see what the REAL problem was. As we were walking she revealed to me that she knows that Daddy has been unfaithful…She found one of the books that I’ve read in a bedside drawer. She’s devastated and said, “Who am I going to look to now as a model couple? I had always thought that you and Daddy were the perfect couple.” I explained that I thought that Daddy was going through a midlife crisis and that it was very difficult, but that I was working hard to hold the family together. I told her that I had been trying hard to keep her and her brother safe from the crazy. She said to me, “I just have one question…No, actually, I have a lot of questions…but the only one I’m going to ask is this. When?” I told her that I wouldn’t tell her that. Sweet girl – I think she thinks it was a one time thing….(sigh)

I asked her if she’d like to talk to someone about this, and she declined. She hasn’t brought it up again…Will have to keep my eye on her. She did tell me that she thinks I'm very strong and brave. I hate that my 15 year old has first hand knowledge of this, but the affirmation was still a little nice.

Anyway – working on dropping the rope. Working on my 180s. Applying to a new job (which will allow me to detach more). Trying to figure out what to do about the family.

And watching…Watching H from farther afar than before. As far as OW goes, his communication with her seems to be much more subtle than it used to. I don’t know if that means that they’ve gone dark or if he’s just being more secretive. I guess with detachment, it doesn’t matter.

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You seemed to handle the reunion well. And you seem to at least have a good understanding of what your H is going through and how it translates to his actions. I hate your D had to find out. That must have been really tough. I really do not have much to add except for your last statement...

Quote:
I guess with detachment, it doesn’t matter.


YES...EXACTLY!

Best of luck to you!


Me: 42
W: 32
Married 7 years together 8.5
S1: 7 S2:7
Bomb #1: 09-16-13
Recon #1: 11/13
A discovered 04-03-2014
W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me
I filed D 12-02-2014
S 05-31-14
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Oh - I almost forgot his new party trick....

One of the things that he likes to point out to me from time to time now is that he is "my man."

:rolleyes:

I basically stay silent when he says it....because until I hear otherwise, he made me share. That's not what I signed up for. And I don't consider him "my man," if I'm sharing him.

If he continues to push it, I guess we'll have to talk about it, but I've been avoiding that conversation. I'm going to let him keep playing with the puzzle pieces. They still don't fit the way he wants them to.

(Come to think of it - I kind of like the puzzle analogy. All these broken pieces to put together! There are some that don't belong in the puzzle at all, and he has to sort through and figure it out!)

One last thing....I find myself breaking out in acne again. I'm 43 years old for pete's sake! Stress? Has anyone else had this symptom? Seriously - this isn't fair.

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I hate the 14th.

He told me about his "friendship" on the 14th, exactly one month following our anniversary.

So, today marks 8 months since he told me about his other friend.

It also marks one month since I've stopped talking to him about it...new beginnings, I guess.

Still, spending the day feeling nauseated and out of control. Have to pull it together by tonight. Went for a long run today (training for two marathons this fall) and realized that one of my 180s will be praising him. The man is desperate for positive feedback, (he sent me an email today from a co-worker about a photograph that he took last week and mailed to everyone since he missed a phone call). He has told me that OW filled this void for him..."She's like a faithful puppy!"

(Sigh)

So - give him positive feedback while distancing and not being a doormat. How do I do THAT? Too soon????

Sometimes this all feels like it's too much. Sometimes it really is a wonder that I just don't run away!!!

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MLP, you have some really good insight. I'm sorry your having a tough day. Hang in there! You give me hope that I can detach more from my sitch too.


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M: 5 years
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Because sometimes the universe is just funny....

I split my 14 mile run today into 10 miles and 4 miles. I don't typically do that, but I had to because we're expecting strong storms and I just couldn't get all 14 miles done before I had to pick up my son at noon.

Anyway - my 15 D ran the last 4 with me (she's a cross country runner), and we got just past 2 miles when she said, "Look! A bird!"

Indeed. A young, injured blue jay was floundering on the ground.

OW is from Toronto. Where the Blue Jays are. Her first initial is also "J."

So, I picked up the damaged "J" and I took it to a local bird sanctuary, where it will be rehabilitated.

Karmas gotta give me SOME credit for that....right? wink

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ACK! One last thing (I'm all over the place today...)....

So - our kids are going to camp in a few weeks and we're going to be alone.

H wants to go with me to his parents summer house, and then he wants me to go to Toronto. He will go to work. I will work from the hotel room. (My job is flexible like that.)

I think this is another way that he gets to go work in the city where OW is with a babysitter (in this case, me...). He hasn't been there since May. His next trip he is going with a co-worker (and I think I remember that co-worker and his wife nearly caught H and OW at the hotel very early on).

I'm really struggling with this. I don't really want to go to her city and potentially run into her. That said, I appreciate the fact that he feels that he will restrain himself from his addiction if I'm around.

He's said he wants to talk about this tonight. Every time he brings it up, I'm silent. I'm really stuck in a place of stillness and silence right now.

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Well....

We didn't talk about the trip last night. Instead, we worked on my resume. (I'm applying for a job and he asked me a few days ago if I had "the courage" to send him my resume and cover letter. Fascinating. Why wouldn't I have courage? I'm a smart woman and can write a letter. When I sent it, his response was, "Try as hard as I may, I have no improvements to make to this letter." Thank you, Mr. Important Businessman.)

We did all of our "work" remotely from one another. He disappeared into his office, I stayed in my kitchen...Communicating over iChat seems to be where we do the most "talking" these days.

At any rate - things are still shifting. He asked me last night if we had any "sleep tea." I guess he really is struggling with sleeping these days. So, I said yes and he asked me to make him a cup, which I did. Then I left the house to get our daughter. Honestly, I had hoped that he'd be asleep by the time I returned, but he was still on top of the covers, waiting for me. I said good night and we went to sleep..

There seems to be a heavy blanket of silence between the two of us now. This morning we lay in bed after the alarm went off for about 45 minutes. At one point I asked him if I was supposed to be encouraging him to go for a run or a bike ride. He said no - it was his rest day from training (and I was supposed to know that since he's sent me his schedule). Anyway - the total silence is new. It's weird. New stage? Not sure. Can't mind read, so I'm just observing.

He mentioned the other day that he wants to go bowling with the whole family before the girl goes to camp for a month. Tonight was the night that could happen, and I told him so. Do I remind him of this, or do we just see if he remembers? Planning something but not executing it seems to be one of his specialties right now.

Lastly - I had to take the boy to his summer school class this morning, and H was in the bathroom when we left. I sent him a text to say good bye, and he answered, "C ya."

It sent me right clear around the bend.

H is a college educated 43 year old man who has NEVER resorted to text speak, and who used to mock those who did. I KNOW that is language that OW uses in her messages (because he used to make fun of her poor grammar and spelling skills).

What a flipping setback that was for me. It felt like the straw that broke the camel's back. I had a cry like I haven't had in a while.

So today I'm pondering how much patience I really have. Is it time to ask him to go away? (Over "c ya"?) I don't even know what's happening there. Is he going into the depression stage? Does he have ANY idea that he may lose me (I doubt it....although he has pursued some since I've been detaching....but I don't think he fears losing me. Can't mind read!)

So much to do today. Got to work on applying for this job, and signing up for volunteer work....and generally moving on without looking at this flipping nightmare anymore. It's so exhausting.

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So much of your last post resonates with me. My H is also really great about mentioning plans and then not following through with them. It's like the pressure is too much or something.

Good luck with job! {{{hugs}}} Keep your head up and focus on the positive.


Me: 30
H: 35
M: 5 years
S2
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It makes me crazy.

A while ago he asked me to come up with three ideas for something that we could do together that would make me happy.

I thought and thought. All morning he would send me messages: "Any ideas?"

So finally I sent him three ideas. Things that were pretty out of the box for the two of us, but that would be fun.

He sent me back a message that we would definitely do one of them that weekend. (Go for a bike ride and then go out to breakfast at a diner.)

We totally didn't do it.

It's so frustrating to watch him do this. I know that his head is just stuck on some crazy loop right now, but this is NOT the man to whom I was married for 18 years!!!! It really is as if aliens have taken him.

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And now the IMs about travel while the kids are at camp.

Deep breath...

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MLP , Ive tracked you down on here just to say thanks for the posts on my thread . I really relate to your sitch > Its practically identical except your dealing with a husband and Im dealing with a wife . And as you put it an ALIEN . I dont know where my real wife went or if she will ever be back . Its disheartening to say the least but at least we are still together in some respect which gives a me hope of my marriage pulling through someday > The part about the crystal ball being shattered is so true . If your like me , you had a future planned and this wasnt part of it .


Me 45 W 45
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W still at home
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Dawgy...I'm sorry that you find yourself in the same situation as me. I'm really sorry for everyone here.

Okay...So, here's where I am today.

H wants me to go on a business trip with him to OWs city. Both kids are at camp, so I can do this easily.

At the end of May he said he was ending things, but then confused me when he said, "She thinks I'm breaking up with her every time we talk.". In June he seemed to be waffling on "ending things" - I have not asked if they have spent time or had any physical contact since I knew they last had contact in May.

He has a trip to her city next week. He has told me multiple times that a co-worker is going with him. I believe this co-worker caught OW leaving the hotel last winter and suspects an A. No mind-reading...just noting that talking about the co-worker being in the city at the same time has been a theme of his.

So...Invitation to go with him.

1) I know that one thing I need to work on in our marriage is prioritizing him. He always feels like I have excuses not to go with him on trips or whatnot. I turned him down for a week long trip to Europe a few years ago. Other than our dog, since both kids will be in camp I have no reason not to go on this trip with him.

2) We'd be staying in a lovely hotel...where he has had physical interactions with OW. I know this. This is a bitter pill to swallow.

3) He WANTS me there.
--3a. Is he sending a message to OW by bringing me on this trip? No mind reading, I know.
--3b. He IS sending a message to me. He has said to me that he always wants me with him. By inviting me along, this reinforces that message.
--3c. Along with the stronger efforts of not messaging OW in front of me and spending more time with me, do I do anything with this information?
--3d. This is a shift since going dark about the relationship a month ago. We haven't talked about the elephant in the room for over a month. At what point do I open up Pandora's Box again? Will that just send him back to her again? Do I even know that he's not with her now? I do not know....

DR says I just have to go with the flow. I can't ask questions or make demands. "He needs time to think, feel, and experiment, even if part of his experimentation involves another woman. If you start making demands right away, you will probably lose him. There may not be much that you can do right now to make things better, but there are a ton of things that you can do to make things worse like interrogation and issuing demands." p. 259

So - go with the flow...go on the trip....I can use the time to do work in the hotel and he's promised me a nice dinner out. (Again - potentially to a place he's already been or that OW will recommend. Ugh.)

Jim Conway writes this of affairs, "It will help if the [spouse] can keep perspective and realize that the affair is probably just that - a temporary affair that will soon be over. If she can temporarily put up with his craziness and work at areas in her life that need improvement, then she will be able to accelerate the healing in both of them.
"But it's painful for a [spouse] to put up with all this deception....
"This short-range affair probably was brought to the surface by anxieties the midlife man had - his fading youth, fear about sexuality, concern about work, or just the impending awareness of death. It will help her to realize he must work through these problems. The affair was the wrong way to do it, but the affair will lose its power as the problems begin to be resolved."

So...180s. Pay more attention to husband. Accept offers to spend time with him.

Phew.

I feel like I'm lost in the dark.



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Originally Posted By: MLP
So - go with the flow...go on the trip....I can use the time to do work in the hotel and he's promised me a nice dinner out. (Again - potentially to a place he's already been or that OW will recommend. Ugh.)


MLP, you choose where you go for dinner.


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True...just not my city and I don't know where they've gone.

Things moving at warp speed today. D15 feeling very emotional and betrayed by dad. Will have to figure out how to help her. She does not want IC. I think she wants a showdown with dad, and an apology, but I don't think that's a good solution right now. Any good resources for teens? She's looking up information on divorce, and I told her that's not on the table right now.

H has been texting a ton today. In general I see a big increase in how much he talks to me. It's much more like the old days. I'm still letting him do all the initiating.

This afternoon he said that he realized that S13 was right the other night--that we don't just sit down at dinner and talk to each other. At the time, he yelled at the boy and told him to be quiet. Now he realizes that we should prioritize family. He wants to go out as a family tonight. Ok.

Little baby steps. This is a big change.

He told me that he has been deliberately not going to his office to hide every night the last few months, focusing instead on spending time with me. I told him that I had noticed, and that I also know that he loves movies, so I will watch movies with him, too. He seemed pleased by this.

I've got to steady myself. Marathon, not sprint.....

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MLP - please be careful, have you ever heard of cake-eating.

You dont want to permit that. OK?


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Ok...but how to prevent if I'm not bringing up the OW? At some point I have to bring it up, right?

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And the day just keeps getting weirder.

H just sent me a message that his boss just let him know that he's getting a divorce. He's in his late 50s.

Just information, but still....

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H's car went bonkers yesterday in one of the NE rain deluges that we're having. Seems to have gotten wet inside and now has electrical gremlins. GREAT. What a pain to fix. He was trying to sort that out yesterday. "I'm going to have to disconnect the battery!" "Why don't you just take out fuses instead?"
"Oh - that's a good idea."

He did say that I hate this car anyway. That's true. I've told him that I will never drive it as my primary car for a variety of reasons that have to do with OW. (He let her drive it, he has picked her up at the airport in it for months, blah blah blah...)

I did not validate that statement, however.

But SCRIPT...Wow - they really do follow a script, don't they?

Going to bed he was complaining, "My car is broken...My foot hurts...My ankle hurts...I can't do x anymore...."

My first reaction was wrong. "I haven't noticed that you have a problem doing x...."

And then I remembered validation.

"It must be frustrating to feel like everything is falling apart."

"Yeah."

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Car really broken so I gave him a ride to work.

Silence.

The loneliness is stifling.

Seriously, if you had told me a year ago that I would be doing this now, I would have told you that you were crazy.

Depression stage of MLC? Withdrawal? Does it matter?

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Originally Posted By: MLP
Depression stage of MLC? Withdrawal? Does it matter?

Unfortunately probably still in avoidance stage.

Depression is part of the entire crisis and it can be hard to figure out a stage until you look backwards many years from now.

Take my word on that.


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Wheeeeeeee!

Ah, well, that's why we GAL.

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MLP i totally get what is happening . Same here , if someone said a year ago that my wife was gonna have an affair i would have laughed . Man this is hard stuff to deal with . W tries her darnedest to not need me for anything but she broke down the other day and needed me to fix her truck . Just a reminder to her of one of the things i ve done for her over 25 years . I fixed it and got a thank you. But it was begrudgingly (if thats a word )lol > It definitely appears your husband has alot of guilt and he is hurting pretty bad . Thats too bad for him . he needs to feel it , especially for what he put you through , however I commend you for being soooo dedicated and loyal . You are an amazing woman . it takes incredible character to rise above a sitch like we are in . Ive come to realize i must be a good man to try and work through this and i hope our respective spouses see this some day


Me 45 W 45
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Dawgy, I know the man I'm living with is very, very broken. It's killing me. I have hope that he will mend. It's tough! Some days I'm more hopeful than others.

I need to mend me, too.

Today I saw, ever so briefly a flash of my man. It was ever so brief, but we glanced at each other and we were both genuinely smiling. It made my heart skip a beat, I was so surprised.

I forgot he made me feel that way.

Steady on, MLP. Steady on.

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MLP . I love reading your posts , they seem to be mirror of my sitch . Last sunday I experienced the same thing , an eye contact and a couple actions that lasted only minutes , but it was my woman . And yes it made me feel so good . The rollercoaster we are on is the wildest ride ever and it scares the [censored] out of me .She surprised me today when she actually came home on time and made a meal for me and her when she knew the kids wouldnt be home . However i had to initate the conversation and had to keep it going as i could tell there was alot else on her mind . I totally expected her to not be home and surely make an excuse to not come home and be alone with me at suppertime . She never comes home and puts herself in that situation since she started the A . I could mind read this to death but we re not supposed to do that are we ?


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Originally Posted By: MLP
Today I saw, ever so briefly a flash of my man. It was ever so brief, but we glanced at each other and we were both genuinely smiling. It made my heart skip a beat, I was so surprised.

I forgot he made me feel that way.


Originally Posted By: dawgy
Last sunday I experienced the same thing , an eye contact and a couple actions that lasted only minutes , but it was my woman . And yes it made me feel so good?


As they say in facebook land - I like this :-)


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MLP,
You are amazing! Your strength and dedication to your H in all of this is inspirational. I gave up so quickly when my W went WAW on me. I really wish I'd been strong then (and found this community and the DR book immediately) as I wouldn't have done more damage to the R.
I was watching SportsCenter just now and they were showing highlights of the ESPYs. One of the recipients of an award (he's battle cancer) quoted Jim Valvano (died of cancer a long time ago) who said "Don't give up, don't ever give up" and said those seven words guide him in his fight. They seemed really fitting to your handling of the situation. Dawgy, you too, if you're reading this, I've read quite a bit of your situation too.


Me: 34 W:33
T: 10 M: 6
S: 6 D: 5
BD: 5/14
Still together(ish)
Not giving up: 7/14
D talk has slowed, a lot.
Gradually working on things together. Still separate bedrooms.
Slow and Steady wins the race.
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Hey MLP , you are doing a fantastic job DBing . You are soo strong and whenever you feel like you dont wanna do this anymore remember your not alone . Many many people deal with this type of sitch and only the strong survive . All those couples you see that have been together for 40 , 50 + years , I guarantee theyve had their share of affairs to deal with . I know my grand mother had a rough time with my grand dad . She said he had an OW for 3 years but she stayed in different and it ended . Theyve been together 52 years .And get this she had an A for 2 years after he had his lolol .So you see , a LTR can go through alot of tough times but the real relationships survive .


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Ha - I'm not so sure I'm doing a fantastic job DBing, but I'm doing what I'm doing. It's a process....That said - I kind of hate to think of all of the relationships that have had affairs. It makes me sad. I guess I really believe in marriage being between one man and one woman. It's funny (pathetic) that I still believe that eight months in. It really depresses me that I didn't have that.

Journaling:
I am in an interesting place this morning, feeling quite detached actually. It's a little curious. So much has changed in the last week that I need to look at it a little bit...

1) Last week I learned that our 15D knows that Daddy has been unfaithful. She has talked to me about standing up for myself, but understands that I'm standing up for a marriage. I've talked to her a little bit about MLC and the stages, and she definitely agrees that H is not himself. I've tried to explain that working with someone in MLC is a little bit different because you can't really reason with them since they're dealing with their own mental crises. She's totally rattled (understandably so) that he is untrustworthy and has broken promises to his wife and family. I've offered to have her talk to a counselor, which she has turned down. (My IC thinks that the way I've handled this so far has been outstanding and suggests nothing further.)

D has become quite distant from H. I wonder if a) he will notice or b) she will initiate a showdown. I'm not certain.

I have not told him that she's in the know.

If she confronts him, he will be blindsided. I figure it will be a consequence of his behavior, and I won't protect him from that. He will, probably, blame me for having kept the books someplace where D could find them. a) if he hadn't had the EA/PA, I wouldn't have needed the books. b) I'm not sure where I could have kept them in my house where a child might NOT have found them. Not going to get defensive or worked up about that.

2) H is like a wave right now, in a state of advance and retreat. Yesterday morning's silence in the car was replaced by a flurry of IMs ("I want to buy a sports car!" "You probably should."; "I think I should play WoW with S more." "Great. Why don't you." "You should play with us." "Er...I've never played before." "We'll teach you." "Okay." "Really??? Okay???" "Sure...I'll give it a try."

So - after dinner with the family and D's boyfriend (unexpected--we had thought D and her BF were going out but they elected to stay, and it was lovely), I learned how to play the game with H and S13. Both were so excited that I was playing. So - gaming with him...that's a 180 for me. He's been asking for me to play this game with him for YEARS.

H was complaining that he wasn't feeling well as we went to sleep. Stomach issues. This morning I woke up before the alarm went off, so we didn't see much of each other. As I dashed off to take my son to school, I yelled Goodbye over my shoulder. No kiss goodbye today - something that we've continued to do in front of the kids for 8 months. He didn't advance to give me one, and I didn't retreat to the kitchen to make sure that it happened. I realized as I drove son to school that I didn't make H his cup of tea this morning, either. I think this is the first time in YEARS that I didn't do that. Detached? Yep - seems like I'm becoming more and more detached.

So retreat (silence), advance (lots of IM and playing games), retreat (silence again today....Really, I've heard nothing since goodbye!).

3) One comment that H did make this morning is that his status with the hotel where he stays in OW's city hasn't been upgraded. He's mad because they should "know how awesome he is." (Seriously with the MLC self-centeredness. Honestly - it's so disgusting.) He is headed back there next week. So - I'm starting to feel a little bit of anxiety creep in about that.

So much has changed over the last 8 months. We went from a relationship where we had no secrets to one where we both have secrets (he doesn't know that I've told friends, for instance). I've watched him go from openly texting and emailing OW, to hiding in his office for hours so he can do so quietly, to seeing him deliberately spend more time with me and the kids and NOT IM or email her....So, he's making that concession.

My last conversation with him about OW was over a month ago, when I suspected they were going to see one another on a business trip to another office. He confirmed my suspicion. I have not asked about their interaction there. He has suggested that nothing happened, but I've not taken the bait to engage in a conversation about it. Eventually we will discuss that - but for now I'm completely dark on talking about his affair, be it EA or PA. He will have to wrestle with that all by his lonesome. I figure talking to him about it is pursuit of its own kind. He knows how I feel about the OW. But not talking about this anymore...another 180. Not sure if it's the right one, but it doesn't seem like it's hurting.

Honesty and fidelity. That is what I want to get back to. I have no clue how long that is going to take...I wonder if I need to totally detach (to the point where we aren't living with each other) or if the relationship with OW will crumble to dust and blow away on its own. At some point though, and I don't think it's yet, he and I will need to talk specifically about honesty and fidelity....I think the affair needs to burn out first, and since I'm not sure that it has, it likely hasn't. He knows that I am disgusted (and not fooled) when he tries to suggest an alternate reality to me. He is a little bit spooked by my sixth sense. (For instance, in the spring he was going to her city and he told me that she wasn't going to be there because she was going to be in a different office. I said, "Sure. But she's not going to be in the other city for the entire time you're in her city, is she." He blinked, and admitted that she was not going to be elsewhere for the whole trip. Do not lie to me. It is disgusting and totally not okay. Seriously - he's like a child in that he thinks the lie will make things better, when it actually only makes things worse.)

The business that they work for was put up for sale last week....We'll have to see if he/they even have a JOB in six months. Oddly, this doesn't stress me out that much! Perhaps I'm hoping it will force their separation. Hahaha--there's no perhaps about it!




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I really admire that you're there. I go in and out of that kind of detachment and we've been separated three months. I wish I had been able to get there when he was still at home.

Keep up the good work, MLP!


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Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

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Originally Posted By: MLP
Uh oh. Long flowery email from H about how he wants to spend every moment of his life with me. Time away from me is time wasted.

This from the guy who says I over romanticized the relationship.

Nice words, but what do I do with this????


Hi, MLP. I've not read your entire thread, but just wanted to remind you to pay attention to H's ACTIONS, not his words.

As far as putting up with any Affair, just make sure you aren't baking him any cakes... know what I mean?


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ForeverYoung -

This has been something I've wrestled with since the very beginning.

So many books (including DR!) say that to deal with the MLC affair, it's really best to ignore the affair.

How do you stop cake eating if you're not acknowledging affair?

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I agree MLP . It seems a bit of a contradiction when you ignore what they are doing and trying not to allow cake eating . Cake eating is totally going on in my sitch . But I detached from the sitch , so it seems to allow that behavior . One thing I have trouble with is determining what type of affair my wife is having . It certainly looks like an MLC. Also I want to agree with Forever young to only pay attention to his ACTIONS not his words , because you'll likely see him do things counter to what hes saying . Ive seen this alot with my wife . You are doing a great job MLP . And there will be days you feel alot more detached than others . And If your like me there will be days yet that you still feel very close .


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You don't get it.

There's no problem "acknowledging" the A. However, too many times, people make that the sole source of focus and they concentrate just on the A without changing themselves. Without change, why would the WAS want to come back?

Plus you definitely don't go and tell everyone you know about the A. That does more harm than good.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
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I agree with MrBond. No cake until it is 100% certain the A is over and the OW is out. You've got your health to protect too. Emotional and physical.


Me: 34 W:33
T: 10 M: 6
S: 6 D: 5
BD: 5/14
Still together(ish)
Not giving up: 7/14
D talk has slowed, a lot.
Gradually working on things together. Still separate bedrooms.
Slow and Steady wins the race.
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I'm finding myself agreeing with MrBond a lot in this thread. Dawgy, it seems you're missing the focus here: work on YOU.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
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Help me here!!!

WAH didn't walk away. He's home. He says he's never leaving me. He wants forever with me. He just has a "friend" who makes him feel good about himself. Except she doesn't. He feels guilty. She's just young and has big boobs (I don't.) and she flatters him. And - as someone here told me at some point: even though he's "home," he's already gone.

He said I'm smarter than she is. He said I'm in better shape than she is. (Months and months ago.)

She makes more money than I do. AND she doesn't make him feel guilty (whereas I do...).

So - what can I change?

Well...I can flatter H more and make him feel important. (Honestly - we're both very smart. We challenge each other intellectually.)

I didn't really show interest in his things like computer games. When we first met, that was impractical, since most people didn't have multiple computers. Now we do. Can I play? Sure. Okay. Doing that.

I also focused much more on our children and less on him. Fair enough. I can work on that, too.

OW loves sports. So fine - I like soccer and baseball. We've watched a lot of soccer together. I draw the line at hockey. I used to like hockey. She's a fanatic. I mean, seriously...I'm not supposed to become OW, and I'm not going to. I don't want to. I think she's pretty loathesome.

There are some battles he's going to have to fight all by himself. The other day he said, "You act like your poo doesn't stink!" He was mad at me because I didn't lie to change the date of a social obligation. This man was as honest as the summer day is long before this happened, so to hear him suggest that I lie and be mad that I didn't was astonishing to me. I'm not going to challenge my integrity. I honestly think that was him projecting his own disgust and frustration with himself on me at that moment.

Definitely have not told everyone I know about the affair. My therapist, and a few friends. No one in either of our families, with the exception of our daughter who only knows that Daddy cheated - she has no more information than that (and she discovered it because she found a book on infidelity in a dresser drawer).

So - working on changing myself. Being happy and pleasant (which was NOT me for the first seven months following the affair...). Detaching. No snooping. No asking any questions about either our R or his R with OW. Basically GAL without asking him for any assistance. Looking for a job (so I can make more money; more for me than for our marriage).

Waiting for him to sort out his own issues. I can't do that for him. He's got to figure that out all by himself. He thinks OW is an addiction (per a suggestion that my therapist made that I shared with him about two months ago...).

In the meantime, I flubbed my own 180 today. He desperately wants positive affirmation from me. He emailed me an article, and suggested that he and I should take a class. I agreed with him and he said, "Your husband is a wise, wise man." Instead of stroking his ego "Yes, you're so smart and strong and handsome!!!" I said, "So, let's look for a class, wise guy!" Funny - okay...but not breathlessly swooning, which I think he would prefer.

I've got to really dig deeeeeeep to get there. I feel pretty sure that's what OW gives him. He feels strong and powerful and smart in her presence. I make him feel guilty because he's getting his awesome feelings from someone other than me.

I seriously used to adore this man. Now.... Oh man, I would LOVE to be breathlessly swooning over him, but buyer flipping beware.

I feel like life is a series of if/then statements right now. If you want to regain my trust, then lose the OW. If you want me to breathlessly swoon over you again, then earn my trust again.

If I want to save my marriage, then I have to DB...and ignore the OW for now. And wait it out. And work on myself.

It's hard work.





Last edited by MLP; 07/17/14 09:07 PM.
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MLP-

I'm going to be frank. I'm glad that you're following DR but I'm concerned you're picking and choosing certain phrases and ignoring the others in giving him space to have his A/ignore the OW but then basically doing everything he wants despite him not ending it. You quote this part of DR:

"He needs time to think, feel, and experiment, even if part of his experimentation involves another woman. If you start making demands right away, you will probably lose him. There may not be much that you can do right now to make things better, but there are a ton of things that you can do to make things worse like interrogation and issuing demands." p. 259

and you ask this: How do you stop cake eating if you're not acknowledging affair?

Yes, give him space. But I don't think setting some boundaries about how you want to be involved with him is making demands or interrogating him. I've seen many examples on here from others (Starsky and Wonka) of how to do this. I've pulled some example phrases from a letter on Devaste's thread right now that illustrate setting these boundaries when there's an OP:
"I am not willing live in an open marriage with a third party....It is incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage and our family. We will co-parent our children, and I will of course be civil and courteous, but this isn't how 'friends' treat each othe....Going forward starting now, as long as you are involved in an affair with the OM, our communication only be focused on the logistics of the children's schedules, their issues, and exchanges."

I think that last sentence is the biggest disconnect between what I've seen recommended on here and how your situation is going. Like you mentioned earlier, situations are unique.. but what you've been doing hasn't seem to have gotten you any close to your goal. And it seems pretty clear that you're not comfortable with how things are and OW potentially still being in the picture. You don't have to discuss the affair. You're not demanding he end it. You're simply stating what is OK for you. If you don't want to do that explicitly through words, do it through your actions, and if he asks why you are "cold" or not engaging him, you can respond with how you aren't interested in maintaining a friendship or a relationship while there's someone else in the picture. From how I am reading this, you're giving him all kinds of attention and doing everything he wants - playing video games with him, talking about going on a trip with him, flattering him and stroking his ego... but he also has OW. Where is the incentive for him to end that? I don't see any. He gets the best of everything - all of your attention AND whatever is going on with OW.

I understand you might not be ready to lay it out like that. But I encourage you to think about that.

Another thing - one of my H's complaints was I didn't compliment him enough. Someone gave me wise advice early on that while that's something I could 180, I also need to remember that I shouldn't be the source of H's happiness about himself. He needs to just genuinely be happy for himself and his accomplishments, and any other acknowledgement or appreciation from others is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. I worry that you may be taking on the main burden of lifting your H "up" rather than him being proud of himself. Something to consider.

Have you read the part in DR about when they won't end the affair? That seems appropriate for this situation. Basically she says do the last resort technique, and I think there are aspects of this you are incorporating, but you seem a little too concerned about meeting his requests and needs, going out of your way to do things with him, etc. If things still aren't working , then there's the "after the last resort technique." Again, maybe you're not here yet because it's your last shot. I guess you'll have to decide that. But it involves backing off completely - only logistical things necessary to maintain a household and parent your kids. "Continue this emotional cutoff until your spouse gets the point that there will be no relationship of any sort unless the OP is completely out of the picture." I think the answer to "how do you stop cake eating if you're not acknowledging/discussing the affair" is here, but you have to be ready and willing to implement it without waffling or caving in.


Me:30 H:29, no kids
T:12, M:4 (when D was final)
12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore"
6/14: Separated (I move)
1/15: H filed for D
5/15: D final
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Originally Posted By: MLP
So - what can I change?

So - working on changing myself. Being happy and pleasant (which was NOT me for the first seven months following the affair...). Detaching. No snooping. No asking any questions about either our R or his R with OW. Basically GAL without asking him for any assistance. Looking for a job (so I can make more money; more for me than for our marriage).

Waiting for him to sort out his own issues. I can't do that for him. He's got to figure that out all by himself.

If I want to save my marriage, then I have to DB... and ignore the OW for now. And wait it out. And work on myself.

It's hard work.


That's it MLP. You got it. It's hard, but you can do it.

I'm asssuming cake eating is 'having your cake and eating it' i.e. having two portions. I haven't actually seen it explained.

So withdraw your portion and decorate it how you desire. The other portion may have scrumptiously sweet filling, but you can't live on that alone: there's the rest of the cake to consider which may be dry as a bone - and your teeth will fall out.


M: 57 / EW: 52
T: 21, M: 8
S: 18, S: 15
Bomb: 1 Jun 14
EA Aug 2014 I think
PA Feb 2015 possibly sooner
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Exactly - it means they are having their cake and eating it too (which is a weird phrase, right? If you have cake why not eat it? But what it's actually referring to is you either have a piece of cake in front of you, or you've eaten it. You can't eat it and also have it still be in front of you after you've eaten it, it's gone) You can't have two incompatible things.


Me:30 H:29, no kids
T:12, M:4 (when D was final)
12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore"
6/14: Separated (I move)
1/15: H filed for D
5/15: D final
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KGirl -

Thank you for your post!

I guess the biggest problem that I have right now is that I don't know where OW fits into the picture. They are co-workers who speak every day but she lives 1000 miles away. Their time together is mostly virtual and often supervised by other co-workers. For a time they also spent TONS of time together online in the evenings and on weekends, and that has ceased. The last communication that I had with him directly about OW he told me that she was "infuriated" with him. This was about six weeks ago.

I see what you mean about giving him so many of the things that he wants, but not making any requests of my own. At some point I'm going to have to pull up my big girl panties and address the elephant in the room...What's the deal?

I have not had the stomach to do the LRT or the LLRT. I see that it has worked with people like devastate and wonka. I guess I'm just trying to find the right time....And, as we know, we have lots of time (but should use it wisely). What's the right time with the kids and school? What's the right time with the job (since the company is up for sale) or with my job (since I'm applying for a new one)? So many what ifs and whens...The sun rises, the sun sets, and I stand here frozen, watching the tides shift.

I may be getting closer to the LRT...or my own ILYBINILWY speech. Sometimes I wonder.

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MLP , your sitch and mine are practically identical . I m not going to discount anyone elses opinion on your sitch here , but I do see where you are coming from practicing 180 s . Stroking his ego perhaps is an example . You said he didnt get that from you so your giving it to him . I totally get it . That is a 180 from what you used to do . Im doing the same to my wife . Theres a few things that are hard to understand with the DB ing technique for sure but in the end I must agree with Sandi " you must do what works to save your Marriage "

The same technique wont nessecarily work for every sitch . I believe there must be variations of DBing employed to fit all situations .It seems that you are remaining close to your husband which is excellent in my opinion. He will only be able to see how kind and supportive youve been through this whole ordeal .However i have to agree with KGirl to the fact that he is cake eating , and you know it and how long you allow this to go on is up to your tolerance . I know because im in the same situation .Sooner or later we will have to draw a line in the sand so to speak and say enough is enough and go last resort . So it seems . I know exactly how you feel , Im basically allowing cake eating hoping that affair will burn out and her behavior will return to normal and the fog will lift .

Im not ready for LTR . And I dont think anybody should implement it if they are not completely ready for the out come . If it doesnt go the way you want you may cave in and you dont want that . If your like me your feelings toward him have slowly changed as time has progressed and i think that thats how you will know when to say enough is enough . When you realize you cant wait any longer for him to stop all contact with OW . Then in my opinion it would be time for LTR


Me 45 W 45
Son 16 Son 14
Married 23 together 27
W threatened sep several times
W still at home
A discovered Mar 17 2014
A ended DEC 2 ( skeptical )
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Just because it seemed appropriate, the color I picked for my pedicure today is called chastity.

And, as it goes on the toes, I see it is the color of pepto bismol.

Still appropriate--lol.

(Esp. Since H has had stomach issues for the past two days. He ALWAYS gets sick before traveling to OW city. Coincidence? I have a hard time believing it now.)

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Great post, KGirl! That really resonated with me.


Me: 30
H: 35
M: 5 years
S2
Signs of MLC started Feb 2014
BD - PA July 2014
Piecing/reconciling late July 2014
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Kgirl, I promise I will read again and again.

I need time to process everything. We are promised time in all of this, right?

H seems very, very much more himself this weekend. It's odd, and I don't know what to make of it. At one point he snapped at me but almost immediately apologized (which is actually new!). Otherwise, sought out family throughout the weekend, pleasant at meals, etc.

When alone, was seeming to research things like our retirement plans and would have suggestions. He also was talking about what the plan will be for new cars when we get them (I often get his old car, and I've told him no way with this one since he picks her up from the airport and they've snogged in it.)

He told me he liked a song by REM and I reminded him they were one of my favorites. He's been listening to them all day.

Today I went for a 15 mile run by myself. That gave me a lot of time to think. And as I was thinking, a guy ride by me on his bike and said, "just keep going! Just keep going!!" It felt like a message. Since my mantra is "let go, let God," I looked up and said, "okay. I got it."

Busy weekend. The d has a visitor from china for a few days who is a sweetie. Lots of training for the marathon going on.

Anyway--things weird and shifting. Weird

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Having had KGirl's post knocking around in my brain for awhile (thank you, again!), here are some thoughts:

1) Paying more attention to H did seem to make things better at home. We are laughing together again, which is nice. He also does not seem to be contacting OW at all, at least from home. That said - I have given him a much wider berth with distancing, so it's hard to say. What I do "know" is that he is not contacting her in my presence, which was one of the boundaries.

2) Our last conversation about OW is basically over a month ago now. One of the DR techniques also says to find out what it is that OW provides that I don't - so that I can. I'm pretty sure that was attention! So - I'm walking a very interesting tightrope right now of not pursuing (and checking in on him throughout the day), but answering him cheerfully and not curtly when he does reach out to me.

Things DO seem better...or at least different. Is it working? I have no idea. My end goal is that OW will no longer be in the picture. I suspect that we're not there yet, but have no proof.

In the meantime, I have realized that something I really, really need to work on is conflict avoidance. I don't mind conflict with students (at work) or with my kids, or EVEN with my friends...But my parents and my H, you betcha. So, that's a big thing that I'm going to have to work on with myself. Growth - here I come.

And I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but here is an example:
In the past, H would send me pictures of women that he thought were sexy. Victoria's Secret ads - whatever. He did for the first time in ages this weekend, and I didn't respond. My reaction was to simply not react. So, he brought it up as we went to bed last night, but it was in a round-about way and I didn't make the connection that he was talking about the email that I had ignored, so he sent it again this morning....And rather than encouraging some flirty sexy talk (as it used to), I told him, honestly, "That email made me feel inadequate."

He answered, "I don't want to make you feel inadequate. That's not fun. We used to talk like this and it was fun. I'm trying to be fun."

This, my friends, is pandora's box.

On the one hand - it is a perfect opportunity for me to start chipping away at the many, many things that I've got on my mind right now (and setting some boundaries!). On the other hand, he's leaving for her city tomorrow....this is his first trip there since May. I have never sent him to her city without some sort of acknowledgement that what he was doing was hurting me. To NOT discuss it would be consistent with what I started about 6 weeks ago.

If he weren't leaving tomorrow, I think I would have been more inclined to pursue this conversation, but something about the timing feels very wrong to me.

Banging my head against a wall.

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I think you're doing great. I think if you can, table the discussion about the email. He'll try it again, hopefully at a time when you can approach the situation. If/when he does, you can address how it makes you feel disrespected and inadequate.

I think the best thing you can do before he leaves is be pleasant and uninterested in his trip. Act as if...

Make some plans w/ the kids for while he's gone and have fun.


Me: 34 W:33
T: 10 M: 6
S: 6 D: 5
BD: 5/14
Still together(ish)
Not giving up: 7/14
D talk has slowed, a lot.
Gradually working on things together. Still separate bedrooms.
Slow and Steady wins the race.
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Checking in again - certainly do things when they feel right for you, no need to lay down a strict boundary if that's not where you're at. I just saw some dissonance in your posts - you said you wanted honesty/fidelity and didn't feel comfortable with a 3rd person involved in your M, but I didn't see what exactly you were doing to set that boundary. It's important to remember that YOU have needs, too, and that you're not doing all of this at your own expense of what you are comfortable and OK with. Another way to think of this - what are changes you can make for yourself that don't involve around reacting to or interacting with him? I was stuck early on too about trying to make all my changes about how I could be more appreciative, more caring, more loving, etc... it didn't really make a difference, for a variety of reasons. Instead I'm now trying to focus on myself and what I can improve in general, irrespective of my interactions with H.

What's up exactly with the sending the sexy women pictures?? Why does he send them and what's the point? I'm glad that you said how you really felt about them in this instance. And in a way your H acknowledged that but it was like one of those "I'm sorry, but.." apologies... "I don't want you to feel that way BUT I'm just trying to have fun, lighten up here!" sort of thing. Has it made you feel inadequate or uncomfortable in the past but instead you forced the flirty/sexy talk? Did you do things you were uncomfortable with at the expense of your own boundaries and feelings to try to please him?

My personal opinion: when your H suggested the class and said he was a wise man... I don't think you need to pander to his ego any more at that point. That was a bit over-the-top. Your H may have his own issues to work on regarding getting applause and appreciation from others instead of genuinely being happy about himself. I'm not saying your H is in any way similar to mine, but in my situation my H SAID he wanted more appreciation/compliments/etc. When I tried to do that more, he just deflected them, and later when we had a discussion about it, he said "I feel like I need the compliments and appreciation to feel better about myself... but what people can give me is never enough.. I feel like I always need more and more because I never quite believe it when people say it so it doesn't make me happy like I think it will." It's possible that no matter how much you do it really won't make your H happy, because he needs to figure out how to be happy with himself and his own accomplishments, even if there's no one there to notice them. There's a balance to strike between speaking someone's love language of words of appreciation/admiration, and being the sole source of their esteem and "happiness."


Me:30 H:29, no kids
T:12, M:4 (when D was final)
12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore"
6/14: Separated (I move)
1/15: H filed for D
5/15: D final
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... and I don't know that there's anything more to say about the email at this point. You said you how you felt and therefore why you didn't respond. I don't know that you need to justify why you feel the way you feel, it's OK to feel that way.


Me:30 H:29, no kids
T:12, M:4 (when D was final)
12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore"
6/14: Separated (I move)
1/15: H filed for D
5/15: D final
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KGirl -

You are very wise. Are you sure you're only 28?

The sexy pics were not things that made me uncomfortable before, but before I had never felt threatened by another woman. I think it's pretty normal for men to admire other women and their bodies. It's a gazillion dollar industry and has been since time began (look at all of the beautiful artwork in the world). I had always been pretty comfortable with my body until this happened....So, this is new. We'll have to work our way through this issue.

Setting my own boundaries...yes. As you know, I simply have a difficult time drawing the hard line in the sand of "If you're still in a relationship with OW, then...." What I find frustrating is that I can do this is so many areas of my life, but somehow this particular boundary terrifies me. Why? Because a couple of resources suggest to ignore the affair. To not ignore the affair would be to push him towards the affair. I don't want to do that. I want the affair to burn itself out, and that takes time.

But, at what cost? You're right - I have my own sanity to protect here.

As for my H's ego....Yes, it's a delicate thing. When we first met, I learned that his family never really gave him much affection. They're not that type of family. He was a professional singer at a young age, and a good athlete, and a good student. But - he never really got kudos for that. When I met him he was an incredibly handsome guy, smart and funny, but had not had many girls who had been interested in him. He's worked hard throughout our life, and has done very well professionally, excelling in certain hobbies...But boy, oh boy....The more successful he's gotten, the more affirmation he seems to need. While sometimes I think to myself, "You're really not THAT great, especially when you act like this," I realize - he already knows it. He tells me all the time when he's projecting his own self-loathing on himself. So he's walking this funny line of "tell me how great I am! I'm so great!" and "I know what I'm doing right now is so, so crappy..." It's his own tightrope and he's looking at the chasm beneath him. Sadly, at some point he's going to fall.

He's off for his trip now.

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Hey MLP I agree with you that setting that boundary is terrifing . I am doing the same on the advice of a counsellor and several resourses . To let the affair run its course , they always do apparently but they take time . My thought is if I can wait out this behavior then when the fog lifts she will see me standing there patiently waiting , loyal to the end . And hopefully she will love me for it .In the process I hope that I dont lose respect and love for her .


Me 45 W 45
Son 16 Son 14
Married 23 together 27
W threatened sep several times
W still at home
A discovered Mar 17 2014
A ended DEC 2 ( skeptical )
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Well - he's off.

He brought up the email again--TWICE. (Apparently this is stuck in his craw...)

He basically told me both in person and by text that I shouldn't feel inadequate. When he told me in person I was walking into the bathroom, so I didn't say anything, and I think he assumed I didn't hear him. The text came after he had landed on his trip. Again - I didn't say anything (I was driving our daughter to the camp bus, so couldn't engage in texting). He then launched an entire conversation, speaking between the two of us. Not only did he write that I'm not inadequate, but that he's super awesome, too! Back and forth....So funny, this egomaniacal crazy. It's like he's so down on himself that he's got to overcompensate. Sheesh.

Anyway - some new things on this trip.
1) He's turned off international roaming. He had gotten it for himself post BD. He told me that he had it so he could contact OW more easily when he was in her country. Okay - that's off. It could just be that it's expensive. Not reading too much into that.

2) He spent last night playing a game online with S and me. Now - this was after 8 pm, and I totally understand that things can happen between end of day and 8...but in the past their dates would go from end of day until 11 or 12, consistently. Last night was his first night there. Tonight is his last night there. He has plans to go to a baseball game with another co-worker. Now - again....I'm totally aware that what he is telling me may not actually jive with what actually happens (believe none of what they say), but this would be a stupid lie to tell me, since the co-worker's wife is a good friend of mine and she's actually there right now, too. If he doesn't go to the baseball game, he's told S that he wants to play online with the two of us again tonight.

Shifting sand right now....Not really sure what to make of it.

Last edited by MLP; 07/23/14 11:34 AM.
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Oh! I almost forgot!!!

I got a call about the job that I applied for yesterday!

Keeping my fingers crossed about it. It would be an interesting thing to do!

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Good for you MLP . My name is Mike . Whats yours ? So i dont have to call you MLP . Its great to get some good news when everything looks like its getting crapped on in your life . I feel im at a bottom right now but maybe not , things can always get worse but hopefully not lolol Ive been doing some things to better myself personally but I dont know if its being noticed . The only thing i notice is whenever im around she is sneaking out to text or call , alot and it hurts me everytime i see it . hopefully things burn themselves out before long . But it doesnt looked cooled down very much if at all , but then ive detached alot so i really am not in the know on the state of her A or A's . Any way I hope this job helps you in life and in your relationship . Are you currently not working ?


Me 45 W 45
Son 16 Son 14
Married 23 together 27
W threatened sep several times
W still at home
A discovered Mar 17 2014
A ended DEC 2 ( skeptical )
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Good luck with the job!!


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
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I'm going to stick with the anonymity of MLP...Maybe you can use "Em" if you like?

Either way - honestly, Mike, I think a big turning point for me was when I realized that not everything is getting crapped on in my life. I'm pretty unhappy about the state of my marriage BUT, this isn't about me AND I have lots of other blessings. I have healthy, happy, smart, good kids (and they took work! And I need to make sure they stay on that path!). The summer weather is great and I can walk around barefoot and enjoy the simple things like my garden (tomatoes are growing!) and the beauty of the world around me. I got to go on vacation recently and see dolphins in the Atlantic ocean and pelicans fishing. I have GREAT friends - some of whom know and are supportive of me, and some of whom don't BUT I know are out there. And - not to be discounted, but I have food on my table and a roof over my head and clothes on my back. Plus -I have a healthy body that is training for a marathon and so far I'm still not in pain! So - while I don't currently have something that I value SO MUCH (a happy, honest, faithful marriage), I have so much more than others.

I do have a job, but it's private consulting and I get referrals via word of mouth. The good news is that the people that I work for are usually very happy with what I do! The harder part is that it's really seasonal work and while I make a good hourly salary, it's not full time. The flexibility is awesome, but ultimately the income is peanuts and wouldn't really sustain me if I was on my own. SO - applying for the new job is really a safety net for me. Totally new thing in an area where I've only ever volunteered, but I think I'd be really good at it and the salary and benefits would actually be excellent.

We shall see! It's an interesting thing to consider.

Lastly - Mike, one thing that's helped me is to stop looking for the end. It will end when it ends. This is a long, long journey. I've run 5 marathons--and they have some similarities. Marathons are grueling and one really has to pace oneself to make it to the end. You have to stop and make sure you're taken care of (water and food) and you can't try to finish too quickly or you'll run out of energy. The worst marathon I ever ran, I got a blister on my foot at about mile 2. I ran 24.2 miles with blisters on my feet, and it was horrible. And while it would have been easy to give up, I didn't. I think standing is very similar. It's easy to give up, but I don't want to. I'm hoping the finish is worth it....I intend to make it there, but I have to pace myself and take care of myself!

I hope everyone has a great day!

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Honestly EM you are a fantastic writer . Your last 3 posts were very good and you deserve to add motivational writer to your list of accomplishments . I reasonate with everything you write . Thanks soo much for your feedback on my sitch , but i think that anyone who reads this post will get alot of good from it .

You being a marathon runner is defintely helping you in many ways , health is at an optimum , your dont give up attitude and your overall out look on life . Your husband is a lucky man and I know he knows it but he defintely has some issues ( likely mental ) to deal with as does my wife .


Me 45 W 45
Son 16 Son 14
Married 23 together 27
W threatened sep several times
W still at home
A discovered Mar 17 2014
A ended DEC 2 ( skeptical )
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I seen a quote on here somewhere from Churchill and he said "when your going through hell, keep going " I love that quote . theres a few different ways to look at what it means . What is your perception of it ?


Me 45 W 45
Son 16 Son 14
Married 23 together 27
W threatened sep several times
W still at home
A discovered Mar 17 2014
A ended DEC 2 ( skeptical )
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Yes--it's definitely a great quote! I guess i read it as, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." Don't STOP in hell (why would you?) - break through to where things are no longer hellish.

The quote that I keep going to is a Robert Frost quote. "The best way out is always through."

Motivational writer! That's nice! This is a good place for me to write. It's mostly journaling for me, and I think that I may be convincing myself as much as I'm convincing you and others! Fake it until you make it....there is a lot to be said for THAT quote, too! smile

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" Fake it till you make it" lolololo ive heard that many times and it too makes alot of sense in our sitches . I wonder who said that quote ??? Dare we guess Haha . " The best way out is always through " I love that one too . Funny how a few kind words of wisdom and support can get you into a better place so quickly . Thx again Em


Me 45 W 45
Son 16 Son 14
Married 23 together 27
W threatened sep several times
W still at home
A discovered Mar 17 2014
A ended DEC 2 ( skeptical )
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Things are pretty bad here this morning . She left us last night for OM


Me 45 W 45
Son 16 Son 14
Married 23 together 27
W threatened sep several times
W still at home
A discovered Mar 17 2014
A ended DEC 2 ( skeptical )
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Have posted in your thread...I'm so sorry!

Things here are changing. Not necessarily better or worse, just different...

Need to practice my 180s a little bit more. I realized last night that I resorted to some old behaviors. What's tricky is that I'm trying to figure out how to handle certain issues without having relationship talk! (For instance, I went to bed last night without telling him that I was going to bed. He told me he was going to stay up working on something, and I said ok...and went to bed. Old behavior that I know he doesn't like. Simple fix: Tell him I'm going to bed. Doesn't feel like detaching. Puzzling that one through!)

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Sorry - more random journaling.

We are going through another round of silence around here. Interesting. H gets very, very quiet when he returns from trips having seen OW. Also very, very sleepless. Not mind reading, just noting.

Otherwise, he hovers near family and seems engaged-ish. (Either on his tablet, or playing interactive games with S and me.)

Note to all: I've spent the afternoon going through drawers looking for last year's school photo of S. I haven't come up with it, but I did come up with some things that made me feel a little sad since there were lots of walks down memory lane. One of the things that I found was a list of 40 things that H loves about me for my 40th birthday 3 years ago. Oddly, some of the things make me wonder if our 40th birthdays (which happened around the same time) wasn't the beginning of his slide into MLC. Many of the things that he loved about me were critiques of himself. Like, "You don't mind that I'm losing all the hair on my head."

I didn't. I never have. But to point it out in a birthday card? There were a BUNCH of those. I dunno. Just struck me.

Lastly - in my IC appointment today we talked about how I have intimacy issues...I don't want people to get too close to me because I'm afraid of rejection. Here's what I realized: THIS IS TOTALLY TRUE. So, I have to go through the worst rejection of all kind to figure that out?? WHAT? That seems totally unfair.

Okay. Soldier on. I've got some work to do on myself!

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Those are good insights.

Yes, my H turned 40 a few weeks ago and all the love letters he sent me after BD when I thought we were piecing touched on his hair loss. He has an uncle that's bald and a couple of high school friends who started going bald in their early twenties and he was quite bold and a little obnoxious about saying they should all just shave their heads.

Then when he realized he was thinning at the crown about three years ago he freaked out. Said "I guess I'd look funny bald, huh?" He looked like he'd burst into tears when he said it.

I like to think I said that it was too soon to start thinking like that and that I would always think he was handsome. But honestly, I can't remember what I said. What I wish I'd said is true. But either way, he's sporting the comb-over these days and not any happier about it than if he'd just embraced the bald.

So... if you can weather THIS rejection, MLP, then you should be cured for life, right?? smile


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
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Cured for life! What in the world will I worry about then? wink

Seriously - she suggested it a few weeks ago, and I rejected it out of hand. But today she made the tumblers fall into place.

Holy cats, batman.

So - that's interesting.

H has been losing his hair (on his head) for a LONG time. And it's NEVER bothered me. He's handsome...it's his eyes and his smile and his mouth.....

And he's been gaining hair on his chest and his back. Again - never bothered me. He'd fret about it all the time when we would go to the beach (News alert: First time we went to the Caribbean was when we first turned 40), and I'd try and try and try to reassure him that it was no big deal. But to him it was a SUPER big deal. The more I tried to assure him it wasn't, the more he'd insist that it was.

Hello!

What are the rules for starting a new thread? I'm going to have to do that soon! I wonder if I should call it, "MLP's journey...How to gain security with intimacy while distancing from WAH." LMAO. Doing things the hard way...That's how I roll.

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To start a new thread, you just go to the index and click new topic. It's courteous and helpful to paste the link to the old thread at the top of the new thread. Labug very helpfully posted the link to the next thread at the bottom of her old threads but mine locked before it occurred to me to do that.

Some people paste links to all their threads at the top of the new thread but I just number mine.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
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