KGirl - post-move

[KGirl]

Time for a new thread, last one here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2453401&page=11

GB, your last post on my prev. thread was worrying about things I don't have control over. Yes... I know... ugh... I think I'm getting better at it but it still creeps in. I couldn't sleep last night wondering what H was going to do while at his work conference this week, if he'd go out and get drunk and make poor choices.

I ended up texting H over what I think was necessary for logistics. Several tornadoes touched down in our area last night, and he's out of town, so I'm concerned about the house and how it's holding up. He has someone coming to feed the cat but no idea how often or if they'll check out the rest of the house. So, I reached out to him.

Me: Don't know if you're getting weather alerts.. may want to ask the person to feed the cat to check for any big storm damage like broken windows

Me: I may try to drive by the house today. Seeing too many pictures from our side of town w/ roofs ripped off, trees down.

H: OK, thanks for checking. I'd hope the neighbors would call me if that was the case, but it doesn't hurt for you to check too.

Me: OK, didn't know there was someone keeping an eye out. /did you ask whoever to check the basement if there is heavy rain? [ our basement regularly floods in heavy rain]

H: Well, I mentioned to the neighbors I'd be gone. I did not ask anyone to check the basement so if you wanted to do that that'd be helpful since I wasn't anticipating heavy rain nor would I want to show them how to clean up the basement if it did have water.

H: My mom just called now too. If you can go check the house/basement to see how everythign's looking and let me know, that'd be greatly appreciated.

Me: I can do it after work, not before. Hopefully if there was something big that was urgent, a neighbor would let you know 'cause it'd be obvious.

H: Yes, I think they would. And checking after work is fine obviously since it is better to check today than 3 days from now.


Since I'm still co-owner of this house, I didn't think it was over reaching to check on its well-being... but maybe I did too much? I wasn't going to drop work and everything to go check it out. Anything I should have done differently? Is it bad that I'm annoyed that he didn't seem to take me seriously until his MOM called??

[labug]

How about: We've had some bad storms here, wanted you to know I'm going to check the house. I'll let you know if there's any damage.

No conversation involved. Just you checking on your asset.

[KGirl]

Thank you. I needed an outside perspective. I'm feeling on edge (and obviously not detached enough) cause H sent me a text with a pic of some chairs and said "thought you'd like the color of these." So he's thinking of me...but I don't really want that, if that makes any sense. I don't want it unless it means something. Even though this has been going on for 6 months, the physical separation has only been a week so I'm a complete newbie on how to handle that.

[KGirl]

labug - question for you. I seem to remember that you had responded to someone else about them not wanting to hear what their H was doing or was up to because it would hurt them (maybe bluesgal or 3boyzmom?), and I found your response helpful and told myself "I need to remember that for when I'm really down about that!" and now I can't find it anywhere. Does that sound familiar? Can you re-share your wisdom?

[labug]

I don't remember specifically but it was probably something like, if you can't hear what they have to say without it having meaning for you, sending you off on a"what does this really mean" tangent, then don't hear it. Keep yourself out of that situation.

Yes, he was thinking of you in some way when he texted about the chairs but you don't know what the context was, what his intent was.

Don't bite the hook.

[KGirl]

I did some digging since I had unexpected free time on my hands and found the post, will put here so I can find it again!

"If you are OK right now in this moment, you can be OK in the next, you can be OK tomorrow, you can be OK next week, etc. It's there inside you. It's usually our thoughts and interpretation of those thoughts that bring on the not-OK.

Your H is doing those things that cause you distress whether you know about them or not. But you're able to OK when you don't know about it. Your life is good. So it's not what he's doing that causes the distress, it's you knowing about it and the stories in your mind about his activities. You can change how you think.

Your OK-ness doesn't have to be tied to him, shouldn't be tied to him."

[KGirl]

It has been a rough few days. The weather has been very dangerous here in Wisconsin. None of our IT systems have worked at work the past few days, which is kind of a problem when you have hundreds of college students coming from all over the country with their parents for orientation, and they get there and you have to tell them "sorry, we can't advise you on what classes to take, or enroll in any classes, because we can't access any of that information!" So I guess all that stress just came unloaded tonight when I went to get my hair cut and the hair stylist said "So [H] told me about your situation... I'm really sorry." I haven't cried in a while when talking to people about that, but I ended up crying in the middle of the haircut. I felt a little better that she said he sounded like a huge d*ck when he was explaining it and that it was good that I didn't have to interact with him She also said she'd still cut his hair and wasn't going to go all crazy and ban him from the salon. That would be interesting, though.

I set up an IC appointment for tomorrow due to feeling down... but I'm not sure what there is to talk about any more. I'm trying to work on changes for me but so many of them were about how I interacted with H, so they are hard to do when not interacting with him. H and I are still friends on facebook but I've un-followed him... I struggle with not clicking on his profile to see what he's up to. I just feel kinda stuck, like I don't know what to do next. The novelty and "nesting" for my new apartment is starting to wear off, and I don't feel like I have a plan for what's next. I'm guessing the advice would be to just live in the present and take it day-by-day but it feels like my life is without purpose if there isn't a goal in mind. I feel adrift right now.

[Thornton]

Hey Kgirl,

Sorry you're struggling. I think you just need time to establish some new routines. Once you start to get some consistent routines, you'll start to balance out.

Try not to worry about what WAH is doing, I know it's hard not to obsess. I'm sure this isn't a cake-walk for him either. He sent you a picture the other day, you were on his mind.

I think if you can stay dark, he might start to wonder about you. It hurts like hell, but it really is your best option IMO.

Hang in there.

[labug]

Glad you found it.

[labug]

You can and should have goals, living in the now doesn't mean you don't have goals.

K, what is something you've always wanted to learn or do? What are your passions, things that make you feel alive?

Come up with 2 and find out how you can get involved in those things. Does your city offer lower cost classes/activities for adults through Parks & Rec?

And then there's meetup dot com

Put yourself out there, get to know people(M&F) who enjoy the same things you do.

[KGirl]

labug - thank you. This is something I need to put some serious brainstorming time into. I realized when I read The Happiness Trap that my leisure/civic/volunteering-type areas of my life were pretty bare. I need to do some analysis of where I spend my time and figure out where it goes, because my first thoughts when thinking about getting involved in something new are "I don't have time!" It seems like after working 40+ hours a week, spending an hour on the bus each day, making and eating dinner, working out 4-5 times a week, and doing very basic household chores, it's time to go to bed already. And I mean VERY basic household chores. I am not one of those people that has a regular schedule for doing things. In fact, my cleaning habits are pretty bad. Things like toilets, floors, sheets usually only get washed when they are visibly dirty, instead of "time for the weekly cleaning of X!" I do want to try and be better at that but... where does the time go?! I feel like I don't even have space to do stuff like that, much less fun things or new ongoing hobbies.

Some things I want to learn/do that I have been pondering so far:
-get my bike fixed up so I can actually ride it for exercise and for errands close by.
-learn more about container gardening and household plants (that's something I could do a class in!). I did a class on flower arranging but that gets kinda pricey if you don't have access to a cheap source. My house had a pretty extensive garden that I was just starting to think about what to do with, since we only had one growing season there to see what it all looked like.
-finish a scarf I had started crocheting years ago and never finished
-some less fun goals: get into a solid gym routine, get into a better cleaning/organizing routine, identify more recipes/meals for one or that I can freeze for leftovers later.

Speaking of, it's funny that even though my chores standards were so low, my H still thought that I was too naggy about them and that there was too much to do. We made a schedule where we each did dishes every other day (he did the pots/pans, I did the smaller things like knives, measuring spoons, etc.) and he still felt like that was too much and that he should just be able to do them "when he felt like it" (which was often a week after the dishes were actually used.) I told him many times I was fine with just doing the dishes myself since I was the one who didn't want them to sit out, but I wasn't allowed to do the pots and pans because he didn't like how I washed them.. but then he still wouldn't do them regularly. I don't think I have overly high expectations, but maybe my expectations were too high for him.

I have been struggling with my family over this situation, particularly my mom. I was never particularly close to my family and I think H really took over their spot in my life in terms of support and someone to do things with, so now without him around I've tried to reconnect with them, but I don't think it's helping me or bringing anything positive into my life. My mom called me yesterday and our conversation went like this:
Mom: So what are you up to these next couple of weeks? I might visit sometime.
Me: Well, I'm going on a trip at the end of the month.
mom: Oh really? Where?
Me: Las Vegas!
Mom: Who are you going with?
Me: Just myself.
Mom: Oh.. well what fun is that?
Me: There are a lot of things to do there that don't require other people... shows, pools, gambling...
Mom: Well, OK, I guess. So I guess that means you are doing fine money-wise and don't need any from me?
Me: Yes, I'm fine, I've been saving a lot since this all started since I didn't know what might be happening.
Mom: OK, I guess I won't offer you any money then, 'cause you don't need it. How were you on Wednesday? [Wednesday was our 3 year wedding anniversary, I didn't really think much about it until after it happened]
Me: I was fine, didn't get any cards from anyone or anything.
Mom: Oh, that's good. I figured it'd be tacky if I sent you a card. I saw you went out to dinner with a friend and wondered if you planned that on purpose to occupy yourself.

None of this was said in a negative tone but it brought me down pretty quickly. I was feeling fine about going on the trip until she questioned how fun it would be. And I'm not sure why she's fixated on the money (she had offered in the past that if I need help paying for anything or if I needed a loan, to let her know). Maybe she wants to help and that's the only way she knows how, but I don't need it. Regardless, none of her comments are very helpful as of late. She also said to me on the day I moved "So what happens now? Are you going to get divorced or what?" *sigh*

[claire7]

No advice, but I hear you about the mom issue. I'm working hard on detaching from that too!

[artsy]

Ohhhhhhh, girl! Ditto on the mom thing!

My favorite: 2 weeks after H left. (He is a Mr. Fix-it guy. He did several things for my parents...little things like replacing doors,etc).

My mom actually called and said:"your dad and I need the outlets changed in the kitchen. Since we can't ask H, do you know of anyone who does stuff like that?"

Unbelievable.

I do truly think they mean well... They just don't think before they speak sometimes!

[labug]

I'm one of those people who could go anywhere by myself and have a good time.

Can you recognize that she's going to trigger you and say to yourself, That's mom being mom.

Then the hard part, don't think about the conversation again. It's in the past.

[lost18]

I haven't even told my Mom. Although I think she senses something is wrong. Being fair I've only told my sister and a couple of close friends. I had a conversation with my D15 the other night, and I'm afraid I do to her this very thing...make a comment that I don't mean to be hurtful or negative but that is exactly how she takes it. Other side of the coin, mom's do the best they know how.

As far as your trip to Vegas, good for you. I am def not the type to do that alone but wish I would venture doing things alone a little more!

If you are trying to build a better relationship with your family would you consider inviting your Mom to go with you. I understand if you don't want to. I try to limit time with my Mom to only a few hours at a time ...I know that sounds horrible.

You could say something like "I was thinking about what you were saying about Vegas being more fun with a friend. Would you be interested in joining me?"

Just a thought, you would be validating her and working on that relationship...

[Georgiabelle]

K-Girl,

I hear you and Artsy on the mom thing. I think they frequently don't realize that what they say can be hurtful. I don't think it's intentional, however it can certainly rattle us (because we sometimes *expect* these comments).

Have fun on your trip! I love going on trips by myself. Enjoy yourself, relax, and do some fun stuff.

[KGirl]

I'm half scared to death, half excited about this trip... I haven't done my usual pre-planning because I've been in "survival mode" still after moving ("shoot, I don't have a trash can... where is the dish soap?... I don't have any milk") but I have all day Saturday to get organized and make sure I have all my travel-sized toiletries When I start to get anxious about going by myself and feeling alone I remind myself I don't have to force myself to go out and see everything just because I'm there, I can always go to my room for a bit and watch some cable, then re-enter the world. My MO for vacations is usually "I must see everything or I feel like I'm wasting time!" so I'm going to try and relax more and just do what I feel like doing at the time I feel like doing it, even if I don't do everything on my list. I've got a couple of "must-do" activities but they add up to one or two a day so there should be plenty of time. I know I am capable of the logistics and all, more scared about being lonely and not having someone to share the experience with (guess that's why there's Facebook, right? )

I don't have as much to say anymore now that H isn't a part of my daily life. I still have lots of what-if anxieties but I think I'm doing better at acknowleding them when they come and noting that there's not much I can do about them so no need to ruminate on them. Things like "what if he sleeps with someone else? what if he doesn't miss me?" A friend commented today that H is posting a lot more on Facebookthan he ever has in the past and that he sounds lonely. Interesting.

I checked out a book I THOUGHT would be helpful about ambivalence in relationships and how to figure out if you should stay in one or not. Basically the book asked you a bunch of questions and then said if you answered negatively to any of them, that that means you should end your relationship because one negative thing outweighs any of the positive answers (??). And, the very first point was "If you've done something to remove your partner from your life, like made plans to move, you've already ended your relationship and your mind is in fact made up." Umm... ok. So according to the book, me moving means I'm actually done and shouldn't bother with trying to get back together (the "research" for this book is based on what the author says most people regret or don't regret doing when they are in similar situations.) I guess I should keep in mind that the book is made for people who are initiating the choice of what to do, not people who are left with different choices because of ones their partner has already made. That was a pretty cr*ppy book. I think I'll stick with DR and my codependency books!

[Ben2010]

That sounds like one of the worst books Ive ever heard of. What is the name of it? I must make sure that I never bother reading it. Even if it is written for the initiater, it sounds terrible. How can you justify ending a relationship based on one thing that is negative???

[KGirl]

I had to look it up to make sure I was remembering it correctly because it seemed so extreme, but yes, it says "A guideline that says your relationship is too bad to stay in overrules any guidelines that says your relationship is too good to leave." The rational is that this is like a diagnostic manual so it will give you a clear answer as opposed to just listing pros/cons, and compares the process to picking a house: it might have a great layout, but it doesn't counteract the fact that it's in a poor location (which still doesn't make sense... because depending on what's important to you it might!) Apparently the guidelines in the book are so strong that if you say "no" to something, it's terrible enough to outweigh any other positives! Of course there's some careful couching at the beginning of the book about how you need to take your own situation into account, seek the help of a therapist, etc., but that wa.s an awfully strong statement. I'm not sure if bashing it then posting the title follows within the rules... but let's just say that something that proclaims to be a step-by-step guide to decide whether to stay in your relationship might be a little too checklist-y/doesn't have enough nuance to take everything into account.

[Thornton]

The advice of that book sounds a little reckless and extreme.

Glad to see you are carrying on with Vegas. That's so courageous of you. I would feel the same anxiety you do, feeling alone in another city.

Just imagine how empowered you'll feel when you get back.

Go for it!

[artsy]

Bon Voyage, KGirl!!! Have fun!!!!!

[Ggrass]

Kgirl, I read that one early on, mmm I read it fast and dumped it on the bed side table.

I saw it as a negative book, one full of justifications, of why you leave and why it's ok.

[KGirl]

Ugh... I leave in a few hours and am feeling not so great about this. I feel like I'm going behind H's back and being retaliatory or devious in some way by not telling him I'm going on this trip. I mean, there's no reason I should be telling him - he doesn't want to be M, he didn't want me to live with him, he didn't want to tell me anything about what he was doing or what he was up to, so by all accounts it's fair that I don't tell him what I'm doing. But it kind of feels like a "tit-for-tat" thing ("he doesn't tell me anything, so now I'm going to keep something a secret from him!") rather than a healthy "we're separated so I'm not concerning myself with him" attitude. I don't know exactly why I'm feeling this way today. Maybe it's because I still want to be M/feel M in some ways, and if I was M I'd certainly tell my H as soon as I was thinking about going on a trip, so now I feel guilty. I don't know.

[Georgiabelle]

KGirl,

Your h said he said he didn't want to be M. I don't say that to be harsh. You sound smart, dedicated, committed, funny and attractive. I know it isn't your job to teach lessons- life does that. However, I think you owe yourself a good time. Go, enjoy the pool, have a couple of overpriced cocktails, people watch (that alone is worth the trip) and relax. Your h? Well he can worry about himself. You don't owe him an explanation of what you are doing because you aren't doing anything wrong. You are simply living and going to have fun! Nothing to feel guilty about now.
Enjoy:-)

[Maybell]

Have a great trip, and if you get the chance, see the Beatles Love show. It's my favorite Cirque de Soleil show in Vegas.

[mdu]

Have a blast KGirl, post all about it!

[labug]

Ugh... I leave in a few hours and am feeling not so great about this. I feel like I'm going behind H's back and being retaliatory or devious in some way by not telling him I'm going on this trip. I mean, there's no reason I should be telling him - he doesn't want to be M, he didn't want me to live with him, he didn't want to tell me anything about what he was doing or what he was up to, so by all accounts it's fair that I don't tell him what I'm doing. But it kind of feels like a "tit-for-tat" thing ("he doesn't tell me anything, so now I'm going to keep something a secret from him!") rather than a healthy "we're separated so I'm not concerning myself with him" attitude. I don't know exactly why I'm feeling this way today. Maybe it's because I still want to be M/feel M in some ways, and if I was M I'd certainly tell my H as soon as I was thinking about going on a trip, so now I feel guilty. I don't know.

Of course you're feeling new things, you've never done this before. What you're saying/feeling is to be expected, now go deeper and ask why?

Then let it go and have a good time.

Have a drink and quiet that judge voice.

[KGirl]

I'm feeling pretty good after bottomless mimosas and a brunch buffet! Las Vegas is a good place to travel solo. The only awkward part is eating alone but it encourages me to be more mindful. Usually when I eat I need to read or watch tv. Here I'm really trying to focus on the food. I'm glad I did this without waiting for someone to go with me. I'm an early sleeper so I'll be in my room before it's too crazy outside, so I shouldn't have to worry about my safety too much...apparently the strip is a relatively crime-safe place!

[KGirl]

Hmmm. H sent the following text today.
"Interestingly [H's boss] is in Vegas too. Hope you're having a good time. Lots of storms here."
I've been posting some pics on facebook, so it's not as if it's a secret, but interesting that he reached out to me. Now I kinda feel bad for not acknowledging any of his travels but....whatever. not pursuing. I responded back with "I'll keep an eye out for him!" re: the boss...which was kind of silly because I am unlikely to spot him. But, left it at that, no further conversation. Gotta keep some mystery I also chatted with a lovely British woman traveling solo while we were both at a cafe, who was divorced and assured me I'd find someone

[labug]

Enjoy!

[labug]

K, take some pictures with you and every Elvis impersonator you see to post to your fb. I think that would be a complete 180 for you.

[vossy]

KGirl, it sounds like you definitely piqued his interest.. and that he wanted you to know he knew. Good work

[KGirl]

LOL - labug, it's funny how you know that would be a 180 without ever having met me in person I generally try to ignore/avoid the street performers. A woman did take a picture of me when I was on the new observation wheel on the Strip because I was "too cute to not have a picture taken," apparently! I did post that one to fb and got comments about it, as well as some other pictures of the strip and of food (I like to take pictures of good-looking food!). My "core" people (the ones who know about H and I and are very supportive) liked all of my pics and commented on them, so I felt like I was sharing the experience with them even though they weren't there.

Overall: GREAT trip! No regrets. Well, besides not putting on enough sunscreen at the pool, and maybe eating and drinking a bit too much. My skin, tummy, and feet are not feeling so great - I vow to only drink water and eat only vegetables and fruit for the next few days I saw Blue Man Group and the new Cirque de Soleil show, Zarkana. The second one highlighted the perks of traveling solo - I paid for a balcony seat but was placed in the second row when I picked up my ticket because there was a single spot to fill! Ate at some buffets, had drinks by the pool, went to happy hour, walked around, shopped for kitschy stuff, did the CSI Experience (I solved my crime, btw!) saw the Bellagio fountains. Rarely did I feel out of place by myself or lonely. There were a couple of people that pointed out that fact to me ("Where are your friends? Why are you here alone??") but I just ignored them I found that if you strike up a conversation with someone at the bar or the pool, they'll talk back, and the conversations are always interesting.

vossy - yes, it was very curious that he came out of the woodwork for a bit! I will admit I feel a little hopeful that he noticed what I was doing and wished me well... though I don't want to get my hopes or expectations up too much.

I only cried once during the trip (which doesn't sound like much of a goal, but I kinda thought it'd happen more often!). One of the mornings my mom texted me to let me know H's grandfather's obituary was in the paper. He died last week Friday. On the positive side, I was listed as H's wife in the "survived by" section, though that may not mean anything beyond H hasn't told extended family on that side what's going on. What made me sad was that H did not send me anything about it or let me know that it happened. I'm trying not to think too much of it, because to be honest, I don't know that H even thought it was important, much less important enough to share. H's immediate family and those grandparents are estranged - they weren't invited to our wedding, I never went to a family function with them, and they were basically a non-entity in H's life. But it still hurts that he didn't think to share something important like that with me. I texted him to let him know I heard and that I was sorry. He wrote back thanks, that he appreciated the thought, but that he wasn't all that affected by it because his grandfatehr "didn't really mean anything to him." Even though it wasn't important to him, it's a reminder to me of how the more time passes, the more moments and milestones we're missing out on in each other's lives that we can't get back if we were to R - I feel like there has to come a point where it will just be too much to overcome.

[KGirl]

Now that vacation is over and I'm back to reality, my mental gears are turning again about all this and wondering how this all happened. H said right before I left that he explained it to me and wasn't going to repeat himself, but his explanations were things he had never shared before BD and are things that we could have easily talked about and fixed had I known (more sex, more appreciation, to name a few)... but I didn't know, and honestly, I didn't see any warning signs that he was THAT unhappy or cries for help before that. There's a pattern here of H running away, then coming back, and I'm starting to think I should have seen those as warning signs, rather than positive signs ("He came back again, so he must really love me and this will all work out!"). I'm not sure what the patterns mean - fear of commitment? Need for freedom and adventure? Indecisiveness? Here's what I mean when I say pattern (this is going to be a bit long as I try to work it all out and recount it):

Fall of freshman year of college (2004): H dumps me because he's attracted to some girls in his Spanish class and wants to see if it will go anywhere. He emails them asking to hang out, they both decline and say he had the "wrong idea." A week later he comes back, says that was dumb of him, we get back together.

Fast forward to fall of senior year of college: We're now leaving together in a 1 bedroom apartment, just us (the year before we had another roommate and separate rooms). Around November he tells me randomly before we're about to fall asleep that he doesn't want to be with me anymore, that he doesn't want to just be with one person and that he needs to see what else is out there. He started a part-time job in September and became fast friends with a guy he worked with - a guy who went out every Thursday/Friday/Saturday night, was single, and fit the definition of "player" pretty well. From that point forward we had an off-again/on-again sort of thing.. we'd be "broken up" but then go out to the bars together, go out eat, whatever...it was hard to really be broken up because we lived together. In January I started looking into other apartments and he wrote me a long e-mail saying that maybe I shouldn't do it, we could figure this out, etc. I didn't do it, but then nothing changed. Graduation in May came, we were still broken up, and he moved back home (an hour away) with his parents because it was closer to the job he had found. I was still on campus because I went straight to grad school in the fall, lived on my own.

The following fall (almost a year after this break-up): we start talking more long-distance, visit each other every weeks... then decide we are "back together" sometime in October/November. H gets a new job (the one he'll have for the next 4 years) in this city and he moves back in December. In January/February we talk about me moving into his apartment in May and me subletting my apt. to my sister for the summer. In March I start talking about when to move, and he says "I'm not actually sure I want you to move in yet," which sends things into a tailspin again. I end up staying in my apartment for the summer. We talk again at the beginning of the summer about me moving in at the end of my lease in August, and I tell him I'm not comfortable committing to moving in again with him unless I know we're getting engaged, because I've been burned too many times by him going back on what he says. He says that's no problem, he fully intends for us to get married, etc.

August: I move in! Things seem fine. But come November/December I start asking about what's next, when are we getting engaged, etc. He says he isn't sure yet. I say "what do you mean, you're not sure? You promised me this would be the next step and you were ready when I moved in." I started questioning his commitment to me...

February (now we're in 2010): He proposes! I'm happy, and I assume he's happy. We get married summer 2011. Buy a house in the fall of 2012. Everything seems to be fine now and settled....until December 2013 when he drops the bomb on me. But this time, there's a lot more at stake than just "breaking up," and he had already made a commitment for life, or so I thought. Another factor at play: in April 2013 he got a new job - he had started to really hate the one he'd been in for the past 4 or so years. In this new job he had a lot more free time to talk with coworkers, eat lunch out, less stress in general at work, etc. He became good friends with a 60 year old single guy who is incredibly disrespectful to women and very crude. I can't help but think it's more of the same from back in college when he met his "player" friend at work. Oh, and then there's that little thing of falling for a married woman at his work this past fall who is "more compatible" with him than me.

So what does it all I mean... I don't know exactly, but it doesn't seem good. There's this ongoing cycle of breaking up because he needs to see the world or whatever, then getting back together when it's not what he thought it would be, then breaking up again when he's tired of this. What I do know is I'd have to see SOMETHING big, and I'm not sure what, to believe he'd really be committed this time if we got back together - otherwise I'll be living the next umpteen years wondering when he's going to leave again. All those times before I was heavily pursuing him, so at least this time I'm doing a big 180 by stepping way back, so that he'll have to come find me if he wants back in. If anyone has any insights that are clearer from outside the situation, please let me know!

[Maybell]

I don't want to be hurtful, but I am going to be straightforward.

You are his perpetual Plan B.

You deserve better.

Let him go and don't let him drag you back. There are great guys out there who will commit for real.

DATE. Don't move in. No matter how in love you are. This includes with your H.

And don't ever, ever let anyone treat you so casually.

You are worth more than you've been willing to accept.

[pilot]

^^^^ Maybell said what I was thinking. The pattern is too clear and too well established. At some point in his future he MAY see the error of his ways with you, but I hope by then you are firmly entrenched in a loving lifelong relationship.

[labug]

Hey K, we can never be 100% sure anyone is committed to anything. Never.

The antidote to that is, we learn where happiness comes from and we learn to ride the waves.

[Georgiabelle]

K Girl,

I'm glad you had a great trip. Sounds like you relaxed and had FUN!!!!

It does sound like you've been in a cycle with your h, and honestly unless he really does a deep dive on himself, nothing will change. And I agree LaBug, while nothing is ever 100% except death and taxes, the wondering when your h bolts will be in your mind.

I want to be clear that I am not a physician/therapist/ psychologist, etc although I have a degree in a related field, I have simply realized some folks will never be happy. They don't know what happiness is and will always be looking. Those people will be content or convinced they are *okay *for a while until.....,. Whatever sets them in search of those ever elusive greener pastures. Notice how they never give away trips on game shows to that place?

You will be okay. In fact, I'm pretty sure you will be great:)

[KGirl]

Thanks, all, for your thoughts and advice. When I read the perpetual plan B part... that was hard... which tells me that there's some truth to it. And to be honest, that's the hardest part of "standing" for my M. Do I really want to be the back-up plan after he checks out the grass on the other side and decides maybe it's not actually greener? I want to be someone's plan A, not their plan B (I feel like there is some cutesy quote about that but can't remember what it is). H did say before I left that he was the "type of person who's always looking for the next best thing," whether it's the latest phone, video game console, job, and now apparently partner. I swear if a cute girl so much as looks at him and he has some time to think about it, he has to go chase after her. He just never had time in his old job to see who was around because they worked him so hard (he works in the same building now, just under a different person). So, at least he has some insight... who knows whether he'll actually dig into that and realize that's not going to be a happy way to live life. And think about what that says about his self-esteem, that he has to have the newest or most attractive or most expensive thing or "win" at something to feel fulfilled. He's also always been a very competitive person, loves competitive sports (and fantasy sports... and online poker... and video games... basically anything he can "win" at) and I never really understood what the drive was to be #1 all the time.

If we can't trust anyone to be committed to us... what's the point? I mean, right now I kinda feel like I don't ever want to get married again, much less have kids with someone, because they could just up and leave me any day. Why bother? My H said multiple times after BD "better to have loved and lost than never loved at all" which I thought was a completely BS justification of why this was all OK... I just don't feel right now like there's any truth to that statement.

[labug]

You have grown so much!

If we can't trust anyone to be committed to us... what's the point? I mean, right now I kinda feel like I don't ever want to get married again, much less have kids with someone, because they could just up and leave me any day. Why bother? My H said multiple times after BD "better to have loved and lost than never loved at all" which I thought was a completely BS justification of why this was all OK... I just don't feel right now like there's any truth to that statement.

This will make more sense as time goes on. Right now today, you don't have to get married again, or want to get married again.

You have no idea what the future holds.

Slow down and live today, without expectations. Let the future take care of itself.

The truth to H's statement might be in my first sentence.

[KGirl]

Thanks, labug I'm trying. I don't feel a huge difference, but then again I don't know that there are that drastic of things I felt I needed to change for ME (as opposed to things H didn't like that I'd change just for him). For example, he wanted me to trust him more. I don't really think he's given any more reason to trust him right now, so I don't really feel I need to become more "trusting" just to try to appease him. I know I need to con't to think about controlling things - when I was pondering dating other people the first thought that crossed my mind was "but I won't know what they've been up to or who they've been up with before they met me! I don't like it!" I think that uncomfortable-ness with knowing people may have big chunks of their lives that I'm not privy to or not a part of reflects a desire that I still have to control people/things, so I need to keep thinking about that and practice being OK without having to know every detail of what someone has done or is doing.

In my job I talk a LOT with my students about things like taking things one day at a time, not knowing how they might feel a few months or a year from now about something, that no decisions need to be made today, etc. For example, I worked with an incoming college freshman today who said "I was thinking about taking the next math class, but I don't know if I have room in four years to double major in biology AND math, so I probably shouldn't bother taking the math class if I won't be able to do that major." To which my response was, "What would be the harm in taking one class and seeing how you like it, and then deciding? It's really hard to know how things will go over the next four years. You could love it and only want to major in math. Or hate it, and then at least you could make a decision. Or we could certainly discuss a plan later to do both majors - but let's start with what you'd like to do this FIRST semester." I think I need to do better at actually taking my own advice to heart in my own life!

A general update: it's been a month now since I've moved. I feel at peace with that decision even though according to most people on this board, I shouldn't have left. I wasn't happy living with him and I couldn't really make him leave if ultimately he'll end up in the house and I won't, so it is what it is. I feel much better being able to decorate, do what I want, etc., without feeling like it's a waste of time because I might be leaving. I have not seen or talked on the phone to H since I left. We've texted and emailed some about logistics (bills, him repaying me for the furniture I had to buy, things I left at the house he found that I need to go pick up sometime, etc.) I've only initiated outreach re: logistics and finances. He has reached out twice for things I'd deem unnecessary - once to send me a picture of some patio chairs with the caption "thought you'd like the color of these," and then to wish me a good time while I was in Vegas. I don't expect much from any of that, but it's curious. Otherwise it's been pretty silent. I am curious about what he's up to and what he's working on but it's much easier to not get obsessed about it like I was when we lived together. I'm angry about all this and like a lot of us have been posting lately, have a hard time accepting that it's going to end this way (for some reason "not with a bang but a whimper" comes to mind!), without any trying or discussion besides him reading two chapters of a book and declaring we'll end up divorced no matter what we try so there's no point in wasting time and money. I feel like it'd be easier to accept if we had done months of counseling, had discussions, tried to meet in the middle, etc., and then decided to part ways when we weren't able to figure it out. But, I know that's not my choice right now, so I have to accept the reality as it is. When he comes to mind, honestly, my first thoughts are "He's a d-bag. He's not worth my time right now." I know he doesn't intend to hurt me and just doesn't have a different way right now to deal with whatever he's thinking or trying to find his happiness, but unfortunately it does still hurt in many ways - emotionally, financially, logistically.

Honestly, I miss our cat more than him right now. She stayed with him. It's kind of hard to share custody of a cat.. they don't really like being moved around. I've been thinking about getting my own cat but "our" cat doesn't get along with other cats, so me getting a cat would make it difficult for me to ever come back unless I give that cat up, and I don't really want to put a pet through that. Not sure what to do about that one, maybe it will come to me in time.

[KGirl]

I just got back from an outdoor concert downtown, and here those are generally excuses to hang out with friends and drink wine in a place you are normally not allowed to do so (outside the state capitol building - woohoo!), so of course getting a little drunk made me kind of maudlin. I ended up not timing my commute home very well so had to kill an hour while waiting for the bus, and had a FB conversation with a friend that went like the following (for background, this is one of a group of friends I met via living on the same floor freshman year of college, so we've known each other for 10 years now and she's known H just as long since we went to the same college):

Me: Did you guys see how cr*ppy he was and I just didn't?

Friend: He isn't necessarily crappy
But I did really worry about you when he repeated his same behaviors of wanting to be with others but then not wanting to lose you, etc.

Me: Am I just his perpetual plan B? Probably.

Friend: Which [censored] because you deserve to be plan A. He's not a cr*ppy person, but rather a person with the potential for good who has messed up priorities and makes poor choices sometimes. You wouldn't marry a bad person, but sometimes even good people make dumb decisions. And, in my outside opinion, he is making dumb decisions. Maybe he'll come to his senses, and maybe he won't. But I'll always worry that he'll have a "relapse" of a plan b syndrome.


I thought her response was very insightful. H is not necessarily a cr*ppy person. He just doesn't have the capacity or tools at this point to do anything different. But, this also sums up the crux of my current dilemma. Do I even bother waiting around to see if he'll change his mind or look back and want to be a part of my life now, knowing that is likely to repeat itself again? Or do I hope that it won't and not give up hope even though I may get hurt again? Is it better to cut my losses now and rid him of my life so that I just don't have to worry about this again? There are no answers, I know. But it's something I've been thinking about.

I feel stuck lately on being p*ssed about how someone can promise you they'll stand by you through the good times and bad (he wrote his own vows and that's what he put in them) and then three years later just toss that out the window with no warning. How can someone do that to another person? Maybe someone who doesn't really care about other people's feelings (like H, who has openly said he can't understand how other people are feeling and doesn't really care?) How could I get the rest of my life figured out but screw this part of it so badly? How could I have married a person who can do this, or did I somehow recognize it but chose to ignore it and still made a poor choice? I don't know. I'm sad and I'm angry still. I was reading a book recently that talked about how there is a "typical" period to be angry after a betrayal and if you exceed it it may be excessive. I'm still angry way after that period - but I kinda feel like the betrayal is ongoing, and maybe the timeline really only makes sense if the betrayal has actually ended? :S I know I'm not at a place yet where I can wish him happiness or wish him the best... I kinda hope he regrets this and it will be too late or he finds himself to be super miserable without me. I need to figure out how to get past that vengeful state. I saw the movie Maleficent yesterday and for those who have seen it, I know I don't want to end up like her - vengeful for years afterward at the expense of innocent people who had nothing to do with the original hurt!

[KGirl]

Today I'm angry again at H. When does the anger start fading? Maybe it never really goes away and pops up from time to time to surprise you? Today it came because yesterday I went to a yearly outing at a friend's family farm, and I think it is the first time in 10 years that I went without H. That was hard. Today, my MOH from my wedding is going to be in town and is going to meet up with me. She doesn't make it to town very often, and last time she did I was super excited to show her my new house and felt like all of my pieces in life had fallen into my place. Now I feel like I've taken two steps back. H is also missing out on an opportunity to see her just like he missed out on the farm last night. I made the mistake of looking at his facebook page and he posted yesterday that he was at a bar in a city 3 hours away where his friend lives. He just spent an entire weekend with that same friend two weeks ago in Chicago. I'm angry because he said he was going to use this time to be reflective and really figure out what he wanted - how can he do that if he's going out to bars and sightseeing all the time? The cat is probably very sad and lonely - I'm angry at him for wanting to have her so badly and then not being home to be with her. I could have taken her and would have relished having her here. Everything he does and doesn't do hurts lately - how do you ever come back from that to be able to have that person in your life again? What's he been doing this past month since we've been separated? Is he actually doing any work to figure out what he wants and his issues or is he just being a single dude and enjoying his time without a W to time him down?

Grrrrr. I know being in this state isn't good for me and I need to figure out how to get out of it. I guess I figured by this time I'd have some type of closure either way, but maybe the process couldn't really start until we were physically separated. I have trouble even picturing H (and the poor cat!) in my mind anymore without looking at a picture.

[Maybell]

KGirl, I feel badly if my words earlier hurt you. They weren't meant to inflict pain. Can I offer a virtual hug?

I reposted something I found on an old thread on artsy's thread. It's long so I don't want to hijack your thread but let me know if you don't see it. You may found it a little bit comforting. Stages of LBS.

Don't worry if moving out was different than the advice most people get. You did what was right for you and it sounds like it has done good things for your state of mind. Keep enjoying your own space.

One thing to think of as you prepare for your MOH's visit... Your current circumstances aren't a step backward. They are steps forward in a direction you didn't plan to take. You're doing good, important things on your new path -- relish them!!

And really, a huge, big-sisterly hug for you. I don't want to add to your pain.

[KGirl]

Sometimes things hurt for a little bit because they are true and we don't want to realize it... that doesn't mean they aren't unwelcome. So it's OK, Maybell Because I now realize I really was a plan B to him for much of the past ten years. I liked the stages post - I think I am squarely in stage 3, with glimpses of stage 4 from time to time but not really there yet.

I'm thinking about getting a cat because I really miss having a pet in my life. But, I'm concerned about what would happen if I were to move back, as "our" cat that lives with H doesn't get along with other cats. Do I act as if I'm never coming back and deal with it if and when the time comes? Do I hold off for awhile (and how long do I "wait")?

[labug]

Act as if you love cats, you enjoy their companionship and you want a cat. It doesn't have to have meaning beyond that.

[labug]

And a hug from me also ((( )))

This is really difficult for you. I get it.

[KGirl]

Act as if you love cats, you enjoy their companionship and you want a cat. It doesn't have to have meaning beyond that.

You make it sound so simple, labug! Instead I'm thinking about things like.. "well if I get a cat, I'll want to take pictures of it and post them to facebook... and then H will see them... and that may not help things because then he'll think I'm no longer interested in coming back home because I got a cat and 'gave up' on him and our cat..." etc. etc. etc. Things like this and the bill issues (which I'll get to shortly) make the limbo part hard. In some ways it'd be easier if we were D because all that stuff would be sorted out permanently and we wouldn't have to be in contact at all.

Re: bills, H was supposed to change the cell phone bill to deduct from his checking account instead of our joint checking account, since I'm still paying health insurance for both of us. A payment was posted last week from the joint account, though. I texted him to ask if he had gotten that changed and if it was still pending, and his response was just so over-the-top with excuses for himself: "Not yet. I don't know if I know the password or the website for it, but I've honestly not spent much time on the computer when I'm not at work the last month so I haven't done a few things I know I need to do. I've made sure to check or pay bills, just didn't get it transferred yet."

WTH? A simple "I'm sorry, I didn't do it yet, I'll get right on it" would suffice. Or just an apology. Or just admit you forgot. It takes five minutes to go on and put in a new checking account number. And what's up with that "I've not spent much time on the computer" statement? On the one hand, good, maybe he's finally getting over his fantasy sports and other things he used to spend hours a day on. On the other hand, my mind wanders to who he might be spending his time with that might be keeping him busy... How do you check on a bill without realizing "oh yeah, I need to change where this bill gets paid from?" H was very adament that I took care of too many things for him and he needed/wanted to do things for himself without me reminding him or taking over, but he's not really showing that he CAN take care of these things. Hence, why it seems better to just split all that stuff up so he's only responsible for his own stuff. Grr.

[labug]

It is simple, not easy sometimes, but it is simple.

[KGirl]

H texted me yesterday suggesting I might want to come pick up my growing pile of mail and other random things he found that were mine because he'd be gone until late tonight, so I went and did that right after work. From that experience I've learned that 1)I should just change my address with USPS so as to not have to do that again, hopefully, and 2) I should probably get a third party to do this for me because I really have no willpower to not snoop around the house...so, interesting things that I found:

-H had receipts and boxes and bags out for all kinds of clothes and shoes. This is not someone that cared about this kind of stuff before. He had three shoeboxes on the kitchen table. He had a clothing invoice for someplace online for ringer tees and plaid shorts - things he wore in high school but hasn't worn in years. Can you have a mid-life crisis when you're under 30? Maybe it's a quarter-life crisis?

-H was very insistent when I left that he was going to majorly clean/organize his stuff and replace everything that I was taking once I was gone. Nothing has been replaced, his cr*p is still everywhere, and the house and yard look like junk - hasn't taken care of the landscaping, cobwebs all over the front stoop, etc. Oh well. Not my problem, I guess.

-This is the one that hurts. We had ordered a variety pack of unusual condoms one time in college when we were feeling more "adventurous (:)) but it was a ginormous pack and we hardly used any of them. They're probably all expired, actually. They sat in H's nightstand, in a bag, still within the original mailing package. I will admit that before I moved I periodically checked it to see if it had changed at all. I looked at it tonight and the package was moved, and some of them were no longer in the bag but just in the mailing package. There are many explanations for this, ranging from he moved them when he was arranging other stuff or looked at it 'cause he forgot what it was, or even grabbed some to give to some friends or something because he figured he wouldn't need them... but of course my first thoughts are that he used them, with someone else. And then I panick and cry and take ten steps backwards and lose my confidence. I am pretty sure he's not sleeping with his work "friend" because she is about to have a baby any day now, though I guess it is possible... which would then mean he's just hooking up with random people he just met. Which is somehow even grosser. I know it is a lot of mind reading and I have no idea if it means anything. But right now I'm thinking - why bother waiting to see if he changes his mind? I don't know that I have it in me to believe or trust anything he says. I know I may feel differently once I feel more settled and less emotional. But I don't know how I'd ever be able to live without constantly looking over my shoulder, so why not just end it now and really forget about him in my life. Ugh. I really admire those of you who can get past the PA and still see yourself making it work. I'm hesitating even at just the thought of it, with no concrete proof.

So, things I need to do:
-download a copy of The Happiness Trap. H asked to borrow mine and rather than ask him for it back when it might actually do him some good, it'll be worth the investment to get another copy.
-re-read that and my codependent books
-get more seriously into meditation or other mindfulness practices and do it regularly/make a schedule not just randomly when I think of it
-I do not think I want to re-read DR right now because it just gives me hope that I feel is false right now.
-Go to my Zentangle class tomorrow and be present for that
-Continue my search for a good car and a good cat
-Maybe go back to IC again but I want to have some actual questions or things to discuss that are a little less vague than "what the h--- do I do?"

On the plus side, H left me some window clings in my pile that I wasn't expecting. Guess he thought I'd like those. He also didn't leave me any D paperwork or a letter saying he's decided he's done for sure, so I guess it could be worse

[labug]

I like your goals! Keep your focus there, on YOU.

Maybe "this" (house, yard, etc) is who H really is or who he wants to be.

[KGirl]

I'm going to go see a car tomorrow! I'm nervous - I've never been involved in a car purchase. Heck, I've never really owned my own car. In high school and college I had a car my parents owned, and I never had to deal with maintenance or repairs or anything, my dad always took care of that. So it's a little scary, but a good thing. My goal is to check it out and see if I actually like it (it's a Honda Fit, blue raspberry color, super cute but I know I shouldn't just buy a car 'cause it's cute)... and then even if I do like it, walk away and say I'll have to think about it and check out some other options. Then, work on price over email. I have a bottom line price in mind and I will be firm on not crossing it!

This Zentangle stuff actually turned out to be very interesting. I think it will be a good meditative-type practice for me. Basically it's structured drawing that can be done in a short amount of time and is very easy for completely non-artistic people like me. You fill different sections of your paper "tile" with different patterns ("tangles") made up of simple lines and colored-in areas, and puts you in a sort of "flow" state as you're focusing on it. In the class I took the teacher talked about reminding yourself to breathe, calming and focusing yourself before you get started, and throughout the process paying attention to your marker movements, how the ink flows, etc. You also can't use an eraser, because just like in real life, any perceived "mistakes" have to be incorporated into your drawing And at the end you get a cool little drawing out of it! I'm going to go make another right now - I definitely recommend it even if you feel like you can't draw at all. No, I am not being paid to talk it up

[Georgiabelle]

K-Girl,

I had a Honda Fit and loved it. Very safe, great gas mileage, and surprisingly roomy. Good luck:-)

[labug]

Yay!

[KGirl]

I'm trying my best to think of it as a positive and fun experience. But there is a part of me that is PO'd that I even have to do this. We had decided to be a one-car household until we had kids because we could function just fine that way - he drove to work, I took the bus, and then at night we just coordinated our errands and activities. It saved us a lot of money, but now obviously that's out the window. The car was "his" in that he purchased it way before we got engaged and married (and it was during the period of time that we were broken up at the end of college so I had no input or say in it) so he keeps it. Just like he still lives in the house, and has the cat, so nothing has changed for him, but everything has to change for me. I know I shouldn't be resentful because these were choices I made to move out, or not fight him for the cat or for some money for a car, and I know it's not my job to make him see consequences, but I have a hard time believing he'll "wake up" at all when everything remains the same for him, just minus me.

[labug]

It's your choice to make it a positive, happy, growth experience...or not.

Which side of the street do you want to live your life on.

Read my tag line,180 yourself.

[KGirl]

Car shopping was fun... have some things to think about! I could get a slightly used Honda Fit or a brand new Nissan hatchback for the same price, so if I can set aside my prejudice that Honda is just "better" and that buying new cars are a waste, maybe I'll end up in a new car! And the new one has all kinds of fun things the Honda doesn't, like a rear view camera, audio controls on the steering wheel, bluetooth for hands-free phone use, etc. It might even end up being less expensive because of the 0% financing that's only available for new cars.

Does anyone else have dreams about their spouse that affect how they feel when they wake up? I've been having these negative dreams lately where H has done crazy things while we're separated and then in the dream I'm so angry at him that I don't want to get back together with him. Then I wake up and I'm still very angry at him. I can't tell if my dreams are trying to tell me something, or if I just need to ignore them because they aren't real and try not to let the negative feelings cloud "real life."

[Georgiabelle]

Glad the car shopping was fun. Now you have choices:-)

This next part is strictly my opinion and I'm sure some will disagree. I don't say his to hurt anyone-again my opinion. I think most WAS do not do any deep self reflection unless they feel they must or they are truly see aware. And that is not immediate. I think the reality is most do *fun* stuff and want to see if a new R or *friend* brings them happiness that they are searching for. I am not saying your h is-just that it is a prevalent trend. In other words, I don't think most are digging deep or trying to see if anything could possibly be wrong with them. It's easier to think it's their spouse or SO. They were emotionally done long before BD-that was a mere formality.

Again, these are just my thoughts. I know you are in a difficult place, however your h has to figure out his own stuff. You focus on you and continue doing things you enjoy. I think you are doing awesome :-)

[Georgiabelle]

^^^^ I meant self aware

[GoatGal]

Kgirl,

I have those dreams too.
I also dream that I'm reading and posting on this forum!

---GGG
"Even DBing in my SLEEP!'

[KGirl]

GB - yes, I hear what you're saying and it could very well be that way w/ my H (as evidenced by what comes next...)

So H texted me that I got a very good coupon in the mail that expires soon and I may want to pick it up ASAP. I did, in fact, want that coupon, so I stopped by the house today on the way to do errands to get it. First time I've seen H in person since I moved six weeks ago. I go up to the door, see that the front door is open, ring the bell, don't hear any signs of life, so I go in and get the stuff on the entryway table. He finally comes out from wherever he is and we say hi to each other, then he asks:
H: Do you remember how much we paid for that clock? [for those who have been following my posts, H and I had a big fight about this clock I wanted to take w/ me when I moved that he also wanted, I ended up taking it]
Me: I'm not sure, it was a wedding gift, but I think it was $50 or $60.
H: Oh..I thought we bought it. Well anyways, I found the same one at ShopKo today for $60. At least I think it's the same one, it's hard to tell.
Me: Oh yeah? Can I see it?
*we go look at the clock, I note that it appears to be the same one. I head back out to the front door and pet the cat*
H: So did you get a cat?
Me: No [thanks for the reminder, dude!]
H: Oh. I had to do a lot of errands too today. I spent a lot of money, and I have more stuff to buy, but I'll wait until a different day so I don't spend so much at once.
Me: It can help to spread all those purchases out. Well, I've gotta get going, bye!

I ended the conversation first despite him seeming to want to chat, I tried to look and smell my best, and be cheerful Which lasted until I drove away and cried for a bit... good thing my errands were 20 min. away. The clock made me sad - why would you buy a new one that's exactly the same unless you were pretty sure that your W would never be coming back with her version of that clock? Granted, he might not be thinking that way. He may not be thinking much of anything besides "I want things to look like how they used to." But it made me sad that he's busy replacing everything as if I'm not coming back. I've been holding onto this secret hope that there's no way he'll ACTUALLY divorce me, he'll come around, it will just take some time. I need to really let go of that and acknowledge that more than likely he's NOT "coming back."

Back to your point, GB - rather than spending time reflecting or whatever he seems to be going on shopping sprees to fill the literal empty spaces in his life from when I left. And who knows what the deal is with his "friend." She probably doesn't have as much time to play Words with Friends with him on her phone if she has a newborn (and an older kid) to take care of now/soon.

GoatGal - I dreamed my H had shaved his head and pierced one of his ears. Luckily when I saw him none of those things were true because I'm sure I would have reacted poorly

[vossy]

I *always* have dreams like that. Actually, I always have. When my ex and I were together, if I dreamed that he cheated on me or something, I'd have this annoyed feeling with him the rest of the day.

These days, I have two types of dreams. In some, I am hanging out with him (although we are not together) and sometimes we kiss but it is very clear we're not back together. In others, we are back together but he tells me he is leaving all over again. Either way, waking up after these dreams is hard.

As for the clock, I would stop reading so much into it. All these things are material.. it's not going to determine whether or not you divorce. He may be getting a new clock because right now he is still on the path towards you guys being apart -- obviously he's on that path, because he hasn't asked you to come home -- but that doesn't mean it can't/won't happen.

[labug]

The clock made me sad - why would you buy a new one that's exactly the same unless you were pretty sure that your W would never be coming back with her version of that clock? Granted, he might not be thinking that way. He may not be thinking much of anything besides "I want things to look like how they used to." But it made me sad that he's busy replacing everything as if I'm not coming back. I've been holding onto this secret hope that there's no way he'll ACTUALLY divorce me, he'll come around, it will just take some time. I need to really let go of that and acknowledge that more than likely he's NOT "coming back."

Any of these things could be true or not true.

How about trying the old "Hmmm, isn't that interesting?" line.

I remember all the meaning you placed on that clock and now he's replaced it for $60. You got what you wanted, he got what he wanted.

I know this is all painful for you, I continue to post here because I remember it all too well. I would pick apart every little thing, trying to find some meaning. It only kept me stuck and wallowing.

Until I decided to not care. We are truly in charge of how much meaning we give things.

[KGirl]

I need to keep in mind that H assigns little meaning to things besides the obvious or face-value of the action/thing (having known him as long as I have I feel comfortable saying this) so it really is fruitless for me to ponder what things might "mean" that he does or say. Honestly it wouldn't shock me if he was at ShopKo getting something else, happened to walk past the clock, and thought "hey! That's that clock! I should get it," end of story.

H e-mailed me last night about a missing disc he needed to reimage his computer, and he included a "PS - [show we used to watch together] is really interesting so far this season." I took an opportunity to experiment a little and wrote back with a question about whether he thought a certain thing would happen and I got back a whole paragraph of thoughts. I'm not attaching expectations, because I know he'd like to be friends and could just be being friendly. But, you don't get anywhere unless you start somewhere, right? I figured if I was ready to reach out a little, it couldn't hurt. Now I'll go back to being "dark," I guess, until the next logistical thing.

As for my personal goals:
-I've done a couple of zentangles and will be buying the paper to be able to do more. It's something I look forward to when I need a calm, focused moment.
-Still working on the car thing. Can't decide if I want to start negotiating on any which I think means I don't like any of them enough and need to wait for just the right teal hatchback
-I am focusing better at work instead of on all of this, and am taking initiative to suggest some changes and new projects. I've been there almost a year now and finally feel like I'm in a position where I have enough experience to put behind my suggestions. We have a lot of opportunities to make things less complicated and more connected for students and I'm excited to see what I can bring to the department.
-My couch is finally being delievered on Friday so I can actually have people over because there'll be places to sit!

[labug]

I'm going to look for a zentangle class.

[KGirl]

I recall you mentioning you are crafty and creative so you'd probably like it!

I've run into a dilemma as I ponder purchasing a car and could use some advice on how to approach H about it...
I live in a community property state, so H can technically be held responsible for any car loan I take out while we are still M, even if I'm the sole applicant. This didn't occur to me until I started looking into credit pre-approval and one of the first questions they ask is your marital status, and then I remembered the whole "your debt is mine" thing. If I take out a loan they by law are supposed to notify H that I've done so since he's liable. I'm thinking that a surprise notice from a lender saying I took out thousands of dollars in debt is not a great way to go, and that I should inform him of my plans first. My question is, what's the best way to do it? I want to make it clear that I will take full responsibility for the loan but out of courtesy wanted to give him a head's up. I don't want it to seem like I'm asking him for permission because I don't need to. However, I'm worried that by informing him of my plans, it might intice him to take some sort of D action to protect himself from my debt. I would hope he'd be reasonable and recognize that we can assign that debt to me upon D and that will be that (not to mention that the only reason I'm even getting a car is because we are S, otherwise we'd be sharing his car.) This is what I was thinking of emailing so far:

"H,

I'm looking into buying a car and would need to take out a loan to do so. I wanted to give you a head's up on my plans since they'll likely notify you when I take out a loan. I won't be listing you as a cosigner/coapplicant and regardless of what happens will be taking full responsibility for the loan."

Too much info? Not enough info? Should I be asking his opinion? Should I clarify that he will be also liable for the loan or leave him to figure that out on his own? He has mentioned the fact that we'll be under community property law but I don't know that he'll connect that w/ the implications of the car loan.

I did think about just waiting until this is resolved to buy a car but... who knows how long that will be?? I'm borrowing a car from my parents right now that I'd like to not be driving by winter since it's in rough shape. Also, if he does file for D no parties can take out any debt during the waiting period, and the waiting period is 4+ months, so there's good reason for me to not wait around to make this purchase. Thoughts appreciated about broaching this with him, not about the legal part because I know this isn't the place for that! I don't want to make any implications about D or reconciling in the e-mail, I want to be as neutral as possible.

[mdu]

I like the email. I think getting the car will be very empowering so definitely go for it!

[unbidden]

Check with a L, but if you're already separated new debts are not joint. I wouldn't tell him anything. Not really his business. Seems like you're just creating a reason to contact him.

[Georgiabelle]

KGirl,

No need to ask for h's opinion. You need a car so you have decided to purchase a car. If you feel it necessary , you could say "H, I'm purchasing a car and you may be notified of the loan, just wanted to give you a head's up". That should be sufficient.

[KGirl]

We're not considered "actually" or legally separated so all of the laws about property and debt still apply. Here the only way you are legally separated is if you actually file paperwork for a separation. Our separation is just a physical one which means nothing here in terms of your marital status, hence the awkwardness... I don't really feel like it's his business, you're right, so I don't really want to tell him about it but the creditors by law have to notify him by mail if we live separately/he's not there at signing that I've taken out the loan (it's called the "tattletale law" here, how appropriate!), and I don't know that it will help my goals if that's where the notice comes from.

[vossy]

Would your H tell/ask you if the situation was reversed?

[KGirl]

Georgiabelle, I just spoke with a friend and her advice was just give a head's up but don't justify/rationalize with anything like "I'll be solely responsible, blah blah" because that might bring things to mind that he otherwise wouldn't be worried about... so I think your approach makes sense.

Vossy - Hmm. Well, I guess that will require a bit of mind-reading... my sense is that it wouldn't occur to him that I'd still be liable for his loan or that I'd be notified because he wouldn't research it (or that even if it did, it wouldn't matter because he'd pay all of it) and therefore wouldn't see any reason to tell me. And then I could see myself getting a notice in the mail and thinking "wth is this from??"... so I'm just trying to be considerate so he doesn't wonder what the heck it is when he's notified from the lender.

[KGirl]

I ended up having to get more info from H because even though I was applying individually, it still asked for his SS#, income, etc. because the loan is based on both our income. =| Grr.

Then he sent me a text tonight saying he'd be out of town until Sunday so I could come pick up a few things he found of mine if I wanted. I can see that he's trying to be considerate in that I may not want to see him. But I instantly got this sick feeling in my stomach when he said he'd be going out of town. I thought I'd be over feeling this way by now, but the thoughts of "where's he going? what's he doing? how might it hurt me, whatever it is?" still come up. It's hard for me to just let them go as silly or just stories because they could very well be true (he could be doing something like hooking up with someone or getting another DUI or who knows what.) Does anyone have any good coping strategies for things like this? It's easier when I just know nothing, but I don't think telling him "please don't tell me when you're going out of town" is the best way to approach it...

[vossy]

This probably won't help, and because my situation is very different, it's easier for me to detach. But this is what I say to myself when I start freaking out about what my ex might be doing.. I just say "Whatever" in my head, over and over, and I try to find something to do.

That probably sounds ridiculous, but it's as simple as telling myself I can't change anything that's happening, I can't change what he's doing, I'm not a part of it, he needs to do what he needs to do, etc, etc. And most importantly, I just block it from my head..

Sure, this doesn't work all the time, but for the most part it helps. Even if he IS doing all the things that you imagine, can you change it? No. So why think about it. Why let it change your day and how you feel?

[vossy]

Sorry, I just want to add something. It's a method I use when I know I am going to freak out about something.

As an example, I can be quite scared of flying, as once I was on a plane and the engine caught on fire and we had to make an emergency landing. But thanks to various life circumstances, I have to fly a lot. So, I tell myself that I can only be scared in "levels."

For instance, I say to myself there is no point being scared until the flight attendants are asked to fasten their seatbelts, because if they're still walking around, there's obviously nothing to be worried about. IF it gets to that stage - and it rarely does - I tell myself that I'm not allowed to be scared until the oxygen masks fall down. Which has never happened, btw.

It is just a way for you to allow yourself to have that moment, but ONLY IF it's necessary.

To relate that to your H, I would do this: Say to yourself I am only allowed to be upset/freak out/be sad if I find out that he is seeing someone else. In other words, your reaction is only allowed to come from an actual action, not a "what if" scenario.

[KGirl]

Well, I got an email from H today about the car loan. I'm angry and upset, need to take some time to respond, don't even know HOW to respond.

He says he's been thinking more about it and understands I need and want a car but doesn't think now is the best time given if we move forward with D, the loan would be half his responsibility legally. He says he knows I'll say he wouldn't be responsible for it, but he's not sure that me saying that is "enough" and he's concerned about it. Then he goes on to say that for example, he could wrack up a lot of credit card debt without my knowledge and then I'd technically be responsible for it (so I guess comparing this to one of us being irreponsible with credit?). And then says feel free to email or call him to discuss further. He's also concerned that if he needs to sign the loan as well (which from what I can tell there's no reason he'd need to) he won't do it and would have to consult with a lawyer, and doesn't want me to go all the way through the process to find out I can't do it.

What do I even do with this?? I mean, wait indefinitely until he decides to D me? That doesn't seem right or fair. So far I've thought about saying we could sign something saying that I'll be solely responsible for it, if that would ease his concerns. I could also say that when I do negotiate a car price, I could ask right away about the financing and whether it needs his signature or if just mine will be fine. He's absolutely right that the debt will be part his... but on the other hand, we ARE still M, and we could remain M for who knows how long, or R, or who knows what. The part that really gets me PO'd is I wouldn't even need to be doing this if we were still together because we'd be sharing his car. I could also ask for suggestions so he feels more included in the process (even though, really, I don't need his permission to do any of this).

[claire7]

I wonder if asking for suggestions is the best response... (definitely not responding with anger!)

Validate his concern. .. then ask if he has any ideas for how to solve the issue (you need transportation?) collaboratively.

Draft a response, then re-read (or post here for feedback!) This is a great opportunity to show a change in how you respond to things (if that was an issue in your M).

[Maybell]

KGirl, I agree with Claire, wholeheartedly.

And an alternative, if he digs in his heels, is to peruse Craigslist for a decent car that would not require a loan. My H and I generally sold them there because it was simpler than trying to do a trade-in, and they were always good reliable cars that we sold because of changing life circumstances (like having a baby, or deciding we didn't need a pick-up anymore) rather than because the car was in poor shape. If you do careful due diligence there's no reason you have to buy a car from a dealer, or spend even as much as $10K, although it takes more time.

One other option, though you may not want this one, is to consult a lawyer now about establishing a legal separation that would divide your finances at this time so that you are free to make financial decisions without his input. Or possibly some kind of post-nup or something.

If you need a car it's not ok to let that need be held hostage by him.

[Georgiabelle]

K-Girl,

Yes, you can validate your h's concerns and ask him how he thinks this could be resolved as you do need a car. Is legal separation an option where you are? I'm simply asking because being married yet "separate" could create some financial issues.

[KGirl]

Here's what I've got so far. I don't know if the "I'll be moving forward" line is too harsh, but ultimately I don't need his permission or consent so I don't want it to sound like I won't do it if he pitches a fit.. moreso that I'd be open to things we could do to mitigate his concern/risk. I was going to put something about "I notified you out of courtesy but I'll be moving forward" but that sounds a little too angry To clarify - here even if I take out individual credit, any loans taken out after marriage are assumed to be for the benefit of the whole family/marriage so it will still be concerned joint debt.

"I hear your concerns and I understand them. Yes, technically the loan would be a joint debt, but if we divorce we can put in the paperwork that the loan would mine to take care of. The loan I'd take out is called "individual credit" as opposed to "joint credit with spouse" so I see no reason you need to sign it, but I can be sure to ask before it gets to that point and if it does we can talk about it. If you want us to make a document and sign it to say that it would be my responsibility, we can do that. I do need a reliable vehicle before winter, so I can't wait indefinitely to buy one. Assuming your signature isn't needed and I can get a good price for the car I want, I'll be moving forward on this because I need transportation, but I'm open to suggestions on how we can meet both of our needs. What are your ideas?"

[KGirl]

GB/Maybell - yes, there is legal separation. It's exactly the same process as divorce, but you just check a different box on the form, and you're still technically married at the end but all the assets/debts/child cusotdy/etc. are laid out like divorce. It would take a lot of paperwork, $, and time, samea s a divorce (filing, establishing the whole settlement agreement, refinancing of the house to just be in his name, etc.) For that reason there's not much point to doing it unless you need to remain married for insurance reasons, or have a religious objection to actually being divorced.

This "limbo" is not great for finances, I agree. But I don't want to push him into feeling like he needs to file for D to protect himself, either. Some kind of postnup might be the way to go if needed, specifically for this loan.

If I could buy a car upfront I would! I only have $4,000 saved right now, though ('cause six months ago I had no idea I'd need to be getting a car.. and then I had to put a security deposit down on an apartment, get furniture, etc.) and it's not likely to get me something reliable enough that I can count on. If he does dig his heels in I'll have to decide: do I respect what he thinks and not do it? Or just do it anyway knowing it's not helping our M?

[Georgiabelle]

K-girl,

Thanks for the clarification. You seem like a wonderful, smart, funny, thoughtful lady. You give great advice and it's been nice reading your posts. They are so reflective and thoughtful. . I'm going to say something that may sound harsh. I don't say it to be hurtful, however it's something I've noticed. And I may be 2x4d...... It's just something I notice.

Every decision you make you bring up "what if we reconcile?" It's fine to have hope and only you can decide when that piece doesn't factor into your decision making. However, I know it can be difficult not to factor that into your thought process. At some point, you may just focus on what you want. New car? Cat? If getting a new car is a *reason* not to R then there were going to be other reasons. You can still do what you need and want to do AND reconcile. However, at this point you do need to focus on what does KGirl need? What does KGirl want? I don't advocate doing something that goes against your moral barometer or that you feel would make R difficult for you. However, take h out of the equation as much as possible. It does sound as if he is focusing on him (be it superficially or not) and you should make life wonderful for you. Does that make sense?

Again, I hope that didn't sound terrible. Hope you have a good day:-)

[labug]

What she said ^^^

[KGirl]

GB - thank you, I definitely see where you are coming from. If I was taking that piece of it out of the equation then yes, I'd just take out the loan, but still listen to any suggestions he had and try to be respectful of the fact that it would currently be his debt, too, because that's just the right thing to do in general. I want a car that is actually MINE, that I can be proud to drive, and that isn't going to require a ton of maintenance (the car I'm borrowing from my parents is 13 years old with 180,000 miles and rusting out.) And honestly I think having that one car to share did not help our situation at all. If only I didn't need a loan, this would be much easier An option I hadn't thought of until just now was maybe seeing if my parents could loan me enough money to pay for it outright. I'd get the car I want, H wouldn't have a debt that's potentially his. I'll look into it.

[KGirl]

... I took today off, so not a great way to start the day! But I'm going to finish getting dressed, go out to lunch, come back and wait for my new couch to be delivered, and then meeting some friends for coffee to discuss a possible weekend getaway. And maybe I'll look at cats online too

[Georgiabelle]

Purr-fect!:) Enjoy your day!

[labug]

Just another point, this only becomes a problem is you D, right? If you've decided that it is your debt and will always be your debt and he doesn't have to sign for anything, there is no problem.

Am I seeing this clearly?

[KGirl]

Well, from H's perspective it's problematic because even before D he could still be on the hook for it. For example, if I take out this individual loan, can't make the payments/default on it, they will come after him for payments because he's my spouse, even though his name isn't on the loan. I'm not sure why he's concerned about that because I've never not made a payment on something and have excellent credit. At D we could at least put it in writing that it's solely mine but he's still concerned about that because legally it should be split (ifwe actually had a trial/adverserial D) so we'd have to mutually agree it's solely mine (which we do right now via email... but he says that's not really "official.") Does that make sense or clarify things? In theory it's not a problem providing we both trust each other in agreeing it will be solely my debt and that I'll pay it back appropriately.

[labug]

I think it's perfectly clear.

[KGirl]

When I spell it out... really these are all H's problems and concerns. None of them negatively affect me. Granted, I'm not going to be a complete jerk and just ignore them/blow through tons of money, but if he is concerned about my follow-through or the legality of things, then it's really on him to figure out what to do and implement it. So, I should stop worrying about it

[KGirl]

Feeling really defeated today. Like, crying in the grocery store parking lot kind of defeated. I submitted two pre-approval applications online for car loans so I could see what I would qualify for, and one just outright said they couldn't process my application, and the other said I'd have to call and provide more information (which I can't do now until Monday). I'm hoping it's just something innocuous like clarifying my address, because I have excellent credit so I don't know what the issue would be.... unless my debt to income ratio is too high because my name is on a mortgage AND an apartment =| It's like H's wish for me to not take out a loan has been broadcast to the universe and set up a bunch of barriers. It makes me question whether or not I want to hope things will change. I still want answers to things that don't have answers, like: How can someone not even be able to decide to try or not try to work on our M? It's not as if he has to commit to sticking with me forever.. just trying to see what happens. How could someone you counted on for things (like basic transportation) just say adios and then get angry when you have to take steps to arrange those things for yourself since they've chosen to take themselves out of the equation? I don't know. Staying married to H seems to be causing me more trouble lately than it is worth.

[KGirl]

Earlier I had posted about H being out of town and how that was stressful because I didn't know what he was doing. I thought he might be visiting his sister and her kids, but now I've found he's actually in Chicago for the weekend. Again. He was in Chicago with his same friend less than a month ago for a weekend. And inbetween those trips, he went to the city where this same friend lives for the weekend. All of these places are a 2-3 hour drive from our city so they also involve travel time. This really got me upset this morning, and there's a lot of reasons why (and here's where I probably need some 2x4's about how unreasonable or assumptive I'm being, or something...
-the cat. It makes me sad that he had to have the cat but he's gone all of the time. She gets lonely when we're gone and if she was with me, I'm here more and she would definitely be taken care of.
-he said he needed this time to think things through and figure himself out. I don't really see how he has time to do that when he's off vacationing all of the time. Seems like he's running away/avoiding things instead of confronting them.
-labug, I was thinking about something you said awhile ago about maybe this is the "real" H (leaving the house and yard in poor shape, etc.) If this is the "real" H and who he really wants to be... I don't think that's what I want in my life. I had also posted awhile ago about balance between "us" time, individual time, and time with others, and this is becoming wayy too unbalanced on the time with others side for me, if we started talking about a future together but he kept these activities up at the same level. In the past when he started to do more things (playing soccer 2-3x a week instead of 1, happy hour after work every week), he'd still spend the same amount of time on his individual activites, so the time that would be cut would be "us" time and "obligation" time (chores, dishes, yardwork, stuff like that.) If the "real" H's balance of activities is like it is now, I can't do that. And I'm only seeing SOME of the trips/whatever he's doing, not everything.

I feel like I'm being overly codependent about this and trying to control the situation, but I'm struggling with how to rethink it. I just have trouble believing that he's thinking things through and being introspective, but rather just out having fun because he doesn't have me there telling him he needs to balance all these friend-activities with other things that need to get done.

[Maybell]

You're only six weeks or so into the separation, right?

Still getting used to the new reality, exploring what it's like to be on your own again?

Give it some time. Use this break to think about yourself, and getting your own needs met. Since he's not indicating he's thinking, or that he could want to get back together, you don't have to worry at this time about who he really is. You can wait to see which guy shows up if your contact with him improves.

And yes, I realize this is advice I've been getting and not doing a great job of following. Sometimes I feel like Alice in Wonderland.

[KGirl]

Thanks - yes, we've only been physically separated for about 6 weeks. Since BD was back in December I still expect to feel farther along, like 7 months along, but I need to keep in mind that the clock on grieving/moving on/etc. reset itself when I moved. It is often easier to give our own advice than follow it

[Georgiabelle]

K Girl,

Have you thought of asking h if the cat could stay with you for a couple of weeks? I just wonder if you do that (proposing it as a visit) that your h may agree and it may make you feel a bit better as well. Couldn't hurt. You could say" h, I was wondering if you would allow Kitty to visit for a couple of weeks." Your h (since he's gone a good bit may actually agree-especially at this point.

In regards to whether or not he's thinking, only he can truly answer that. I will say that some people simply are unable to reflect or dig deep on themselves. Can I ask you a question? Does your h have a difficult time being alone? If he does , then sadly he probably is avoiding looking at himself because it's too much for him. That's just mind reading though as I don't know if your h is that way.

Hang in there ! You really are doing great:-)

[labug]

Why do you want to rethink it? I'm not sure I understand what you mean?

[KGirl]

labug - maybe that wasn't the best choice of words. "Reframe" might be better. I feel angry because H isn't doing what I think he *should* be doing with this time apart, and there's probably a different way of thinking about it from his perspective that would be more understanding/less judgmental.

GB - re: the cat, H actually asked me before I moved if I would take her for two weeks while he was "out of town," and I said no, partly because I didn't want to be his cat sitter, and partly because my apartment's policy is that if you have a cat you have to fill out a lease addendum and pay an extra $25 a month. I suppose I could sneak her in here "illegally" but I don't really want to get in trouble (and don't want to pay all that just to have a cat part-time!) I met a cute little long haired black cat yesterday at the humane society that I'm thinking about getting. Re: H being alone... hmm. There are a number of activities that he can spend a lot of time on that are solo activities but they keep his mind occupied, things like fantasy sports stuff (drafts to managing league websites to trades to research on players), video games, watching TV. He tends to need to have something to "do" or something in the background - he would always turn the TV on when we sat down to eat, for example. During TV commercials he'd need to do stuff on his phone. He's not much for reading or quiet activities. So, hard for me to say how he feels about being alone.

I called the bank back about the loan they said they needed more info for. They asked a bunch of questions along the lines of "So you're paying rent, but you have a mortgage, too? And you don't live in the house? But your husband lives in the house? So you live separately? Is your name staying on the house?" UGH. It didn't feel good to explain that we were separated physically but not legally to this random loan lady on the phone. Then she said "I'll submit it and we'll see what happens. Your debt to income ratio is pretty high" because they take into account the mortgage AND my rent AND my student loans, despite the fact I'm not actually paying the mortgage, it's still in my name though. GRRR. I had an angry crying hour or so where I wished H would just divorce me and fall off the face of the earth, or at least take some sort of action one way or another because "limbo" is now screwing with my finances. Thank goodness she got back to me and I was APPROVED, as an individual, no signature from H needed, at the lowest interest rate they offer. Now to see if I can get the car I want for the price I want!

[labug]

Life gets easier when we let go of trying to control others. I found I had a lot more free time to focus on me when I could say "Hmmm, not my problem" and really mean it.

labug - maybe that wasn't the best choice of words. "Reframe" might be better. I feel angry because H isn't doing what I think he *should* be doing with this time apart, and there's probably a different way of thinking about it from his perspective that would be more understanding/less judgmental.

Can you reframe it now?

[KGirl]

Maybe not yet. I think I need some time. I'm really angry and frustrated with H right now so it's hard to reframe anything he's doing as anything positive or even neutral. I received a letter in the mail about why the one bank wouldn't approve a car loan for me: my "obligations are in excess compared to income," thanks to the fact that my name is still on our house so it is still considered my debt, even though I'm not paying anything for it, plus my name is on my apartment. I did get approved for a loan from a different bank but it expires on August 23. I'm worried about them reapproving me or getting other financing if it would have been a better deal (like from the car dealer). Then I thought "well at least I could get a cat..." but actually getting a cat will increase my monthly rent, which could further hurt my ability to get a car loan in the future. So I'm angry that H's indecision about how to proceed is affecting some of the financial things I would like to be able to do. I feel like I'm getting the cr*p end of everything, while he gets to sit in the house we picked out, with the cat, and a nice car. If I knew it would be worth it to hold out on dividing things officially and whatnot (via filing for D) because we'd get back together... I could hold out... but I have no way of knowing. He also neglected to transfer another bill he was supposed to pay from his own checking account. I texted him to ask what was going on with that, and instead of apologizing, or telling me he'd get right on it, he sent a story about how his computer has been broken for the past two weeks so he hasn't been able to make the changes. I call BS. He works at a desk job, on any given day in the past two months he could have gone online and switched account numbers. Just excuses. I'm kind of fed up with him right now.

I know people have much worse stories on here of spouses who ring up tons of credit card debt, just don't pay bills at all, etc. I'm very responsible with my money and bills and I'm becoming uncomfortable with relying on him to pay things that are in my name, not to mention the fact that the debts/housing payments are preventing me from obtaining other credit. It's very tempting to ask him what's going on and if he is headed in any particular direction yet. It's hard for me to imagine him actually taking any action either way. I honestly think this will go on until I'm tired of it and will file myself, because even though he's 99% sure he wants a D, I don't know that he'll ever be able to pull the trigger. I just want to live my life how I want to live it and I feel held back right now.

[KGirl]

Today I'm visiting my MIL, FIL, SIL, and neices/nephew for the first time since BD. SIL had a pampered chef party awhile ago and I ordered some stuff online that I need to pick up, and the kids have been asking about me, so I figured it was time. I know I have to tread carefully - on the one hand, it's an opportunity for positive things to get back to H. On the other hand, it's also an opportunity for negative things to get back to H...so I need to be careful about complaining, spilling too much, etc. I know his MIL knows about his work "crush" because she told me H had told her about this girl he had been sharing things with, became close to, etc., but I don't know that his sister knows anything about that. I'm also not 100% sure if they support us getting back together or not. Sis periodically talks about how she hopes things turn out... but early in our R I don't know that his family really liked me and had made some negative comments about me (they thought I was "stuck up" because I wouldn't gossip about the other family members after holiday outings, things like that. They can be pretty judgy and I try not to get into that if possible). So, wish me luck!

I'm also wondering if people have thoughts about staying completely dark vs. experimenting with light comments/thoughts and when it's time to switch tactics. I'd been as dark as possible for awhile now, only sending messages about bills/money/logistics. Yesterday though I thought of H when I learned about a flower that's in our yard and how it's a big bee attractant... we had this running joke about bees from when he killed one early on and I sent him a brief text about the flower and how he should watch out for bees. He then sent me a three message long text about how does see lots of bees, and hummingbirds, and how this woodpecker is interested in one of the trees but he hopes it goes away. So it seems like he wants to talk. And you don't get anywhere unless you start somewhere. It'd be nice to show him how things COULD be. But on the other hand, maybe he's just being "friends" and I'm concerned I'll start getting expectations if we talk more, and that maybe I need to put my foot down and have NO friendly contact until something has actually changed. Thoughts?? Maybe the compromise is don't initiate, but talk a little if he intiaties (and end first, of course)?

[KGirl]

I guess I should explain my change in mood from my "I hate H!" post to today I drove for 3 hours yesterday so had a lot of time to think. The car thing is really not as big of a deal as I initially felt. I can use this car I'm borrowing from my parents indefinitely, they understand. It's not what I would want for a car but I'll be able to get around. Really my anger comes from these arbitrary goals I set for myself that have come "undone." I finally felt like an adult not too long ago because I had checked all the boxes - had a graduate degree, a full-time job, a husband, a pet, and a house (and in the "right order" according to me) and now three of those things (husband, pet, house) had come undone. I often feel like I'm a student again - living in an apartment, feeling unsettled as to what will happen next, no pet, depending on my parents for a car. I just wanted to feel "adult" again. But as I said, these are arbitrary goals that I don't really need to be happy. If I had to choose between waiting for the right car AND waiting on a cat until after I find a car, or getting a cat now, knowing I may not be able to get a car for awhile because of my financial obligations, I'd rather have a cat first because I do still have a car that works. Therefore, I'm going to go visit little Jasper again today and see if he's come out of his shell at all

[labug]

Hey, K you last couple of posts reminded me of this which landed in my mail box this week.

when we are angry, three things are true:

We are experiencing a strong need and feel an urgent desire to have it met. (We may want to feel safe, valued, or connected to others; we may want to make our own choices, to believe we matter, to be heard, etc.)

Because our need is so important, we don't want others to have a choice about meeting it, so when we talk about our need we apply moralistic rules that we hope will compel others to meet our need. (These rules sound like: "I deserve... You should... The right way is... That's not fair, you're supposed to... ").

Because we believe our rules are correct, we feel justified in treating others in unpleasant ways that will almost guarantee that they won't care about meeting our needs. Oops.

This is a sorry cycle, but it does reveal how we can convert anger into understanding and connection. First, we can recognize that the moralistic rules our partner has about how we should or shouldn't act are just their attempt to compel others to meet their needs. The rules themselves don't really matter. What does matter is to identify the unmet needs that are embedded within these rules.

It reminded me of how rule-bound, black-and-white thinking I was and still can be at times. It's a difficult mind-set to shake because it's usually a defense we've brought with us from the past. Sometimes we don't recognize what we're doing.

What can you do to help you when you get into that place?

[KGirl]

I'll keep thinking about it. I don't have a ton of clear answers right now about some things - like the whole not changing accounts to pay bills like he said he would. There's a second one today that I found that he hasn't transferred. I'm finding it hard to balance making sure my needs are met in terms of things not being paid for with money that's part mine (I am not OK with paying towards bills that are supposed to be his now) and not "nagging" since that was one of the things he said he was unhappy with. It's hard to figure out how to phrase things so that he won't take them as nagging. Today he sent me a text about something unrelated so I responded with "Great! thanks for letting me know. BTW, the cell phone bill is still coming out of the joint account. If you'd rather just repay the account from your own each month, that would be fine with me." - he said he hasn't been able to do some things since his computer isn't working, but I know he can transfer money easily on his phone. Whereas in the past I probably would have just said "Why didn't you change the cell phone bill yet?" And I still am thinking in my head "You said you could be responsible for things and didn't need me reminding you all the time.. but yet here we are two bill cycles later and you still haven't changed it?" Short of logging in and changing it myself to his own account (which feels innapropriate) I'm not how else to get my needs met on this one without potentially coming across as angry to him. But I'll keep thinking.

[labug]

How can you respectfully tell him what your need is and remind him of his agreement nagging?

It can be done.

Some things have to be discussed especially when they revolve around concrete things like business and money. You have to know your boundaries and the consequences of him breaching your boundaries.

[KGirl]

I would think just a simple "Would you please transfer this bill to your own account?" would be sufficient.. but then I feel like I need to add a "by X date" because otherwise there's no timeline for me to check in again by. But if I set a deadline then he'll feel like I'm "pressuring" him to do it on my timeline (which is another reason he was unhappy). BUT, we did put in our written agreemnt that things would be done by a certain date, and they are not. So maybe instead it could go something like:
"We had agreed that you would transfer these bills by X date. When I see that they are not transferred, I feel stressed, because I need to know that my finances are squared away. You mentioned you had trouble transferring things because your computer isn't working - is there anything I can do to help with this?"

[labug]

That seems fine, but I wouldn't offer to help.

Why do you think you're pressuring him? Whoever the bill is owed to sets the time line and this is different from "I'd like the dishes to be done when I get home." (just an example)

Are you angry? I think a bit of anger/disappointment would be justified as he's not doing what he promised.

What's your bottom-line, would you rather keep the peace and pay the bill or risk him thinking you're angry?

Whose problem is this, really? What would happen if he doesn't pay a few bills?

Is this indicative of your past R with him?

K, you have so much to offer, don't let him define you.

[KGirl]

I was also thinking earlier today that I don't need to include helping him. It's a relatively easy thing that shouldn't require help. I texted him that we had agreed to switch these by X date and it's stressful for me when i see that they aren't, and could he please let me know when he does change them? That way I don't have to keep asking or checking online - the responsibility is on him to notify me it's all set. He responded "Yeah, I'll let you know when I've changed them."

Why do I think I'm pressuring him? I think it's because of the things he said at BD that are making me overly cautious. He said I gave him an "ultimatum" to get married so he doesn't feel like he did it for the right reasons, because before I moved in with him I said I didn't want to unless he was committed to marrying me, he said not a problem, but then 5 months later still nothing. I asked him what the deal was and he said he "wasn't sure." I told him that was upsetting because he said he knew he wanted to get married when I moved in, and now he was changing his mind, so I wasn't sure I wanted to stay there anymore. He felt this was pressuring him to get married or be alone, so he chose to get married. Who knows if that was the thought process at the time, but that's how he sees it now. He also felt like I pressured him about chores and asking him to do things by a certain time. We had actually made up a dish-washing calendar that we had both agreed to (he'd do pots and pans Sun, Tues, Thurs, I'd do small things like knives and utensils the other days)... but then he started not doing his dishes on the days he was supposed to. He told me at BD that it was too much to mow the lawn AND do dishes in one day. Our lawn is postage-stamp sized, it takes less than an hour to mow. I don't think my expectations were unreasonable for most people (doing the dishes within a couple of days of creating them? Vs. he'd let them sit for a week or two), but maybe they were for him. This is where he felt like I was "nagging" him. Now I feel nervous to ask him or remind him to do anything because it will be more "nagging" or reminders, regardless of my tone. And honestly, I was not a crazy housekeeper or chore person. I didn't feel the need to have the bathroom cleaned weekly, or even vaccum weekly :S I could understand if I had extremely high standards and expect him to do it all, that that could make him unhappy. But mowing the lawn and dishes in one day seems like a fairly normal thing.. but I'm off tangent, I think.

Yes, I'm angry and disappointed. Particularly because he told me that when I wasn't there to take care of stuff for him anymore he was going to step up and really be on the ball on stuff. I don't see that happening.

I'd rather risk him thinking I'm angry. Whose problem is this - I may need to explain a bit more. So things like the cable bill, electric bill, etc. came out of a joint checking account that we contributed equally to. When I moved, we agreed that he would switch those bills to autodeduct from his personal checking account, as I shouldn't have to pay for half of a bill that I'm not benefiting from (I have my own cable and electric bills to pay at my apartment). So any bill that comes out of the joint account I half-paid for, when I shouldn't have to because I don't live there... plus I make slightly less $ than he does so it hurts me financially even more. Right now what's been happening is when I let him know it hasn't transferred, he reimburses the joint account with his personal money so it's made "whole" - premise being we'd split what's in the joint account if we D. It's annoying to me that I've had to be the one to notice this, though, and let him know about it. I don't think he sees it as as big of an issue because the bill IS getting paid, and if he reimburses it I'm not losing any money. It's just frustrating that he doesn't pay attention or keep me in the loop that he hasn't transferred the bills, and that I find out when I see the money deducted.

Is this indicative of our past R? Sure, I think so. He tends to not worry about fixing things until they've become an issue (when the dishes start smelling or he runs out of clean ones, THEN he'll do them). I like to do things before they become problems. I thought I was doing a good job in the past year or so about not nagging but trying to come up with joint solutions. I offered to do things like dishes because they were important to me and not him. He said no because he didn't like how I did them (??). We made a chore chart so things were clear.. he stopped following it. I offered to mow the lawn, shovel the snow, etc. so that I was doing more of the "manual labor" (he told me that things like shopping lists, couponing, picking things up at the store, etc. didn't count because they weren't "real chores") - he told me no, he'd rather do them himself. It was sometimes a struggle to have my needs met for cleanliness, organization, etc., considering he didn't like to have a set timeline. For example, if I would say "I'd like to get this picture hung - when do you think we could do that? Maybe on Saturday?" he'd say "Sure" and then when Saturday came and I asked about it again, he'd get cranky and say "It's just an arbitrary day, there's no reason it HAS to be done today" even though that's what he agreed to.

A good way of summarizing this pressure/reminding conflict, especially w/ regard to tasks or deadlines: we both took a personality test at some point, and I was definitively a "J".
J characteristics:
-I like to have things decided.
-I appear to be task oriented.
-I like to make lists of things to do.
-I like to get my work done before playing.
-I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline.
-Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information.
H was squarely a "P". P characteristics:
-I like to stay open to respond to whatever happens.
-I appear to be loose and casual. I like to keep plans to a minimum.
-I like to approach work as play or mix work and play.
-I work in bursts of energy.
-I am stimulated by an approaching deadline.
-Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed.

I felt like I made a active effort to be more flexible and understand where he was coming from (with the dishes for example, as long as they were done by the end of "his" day, that we had agreed to, it didn't matter if they were done in the morning, after work, etc. And I never cared how long it took him to do outdoor chores.) I don't feel like he worked to meet me in the middle, though, and that his attitude is/was "this is just how I am, too bad." When I voiced unhappiness or stressed about how he handled or took care of something (or didn't, in many cases) I heard several times "If you don't like it, there's the door." Maybe I should have thought more about that when I heard it more than once.