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#2460582 06/15/14 08:19 PM
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hi there,
been reading & trying to learn what I can here.
the most important lesson being to take care of myself re: mlc H. However, I feel 'frozen'& unable to move forward creatively.

H's mlc:
> began about 4 months ago.
> went to huge event abroad & on return thought about all younger, prettier women that he's missing in his life.
> compounded by his 'single, party animal' brother who clubs every weekend / fri & sat.

disposition/actions:
> became insulting, showed contempt, emotional distance/disconnection, disrespectful of my feelings, nasty.
> isolated me: speaks to all our connections but me - re his day to day experiences and everyday life, his plans - professional or otherwise (!!) (just little things that are no big deal when speaking to a spouse. I would find out by accident or indirectly through someone who just assumed I knew).

actions:
> didn't seem interested in me/family for about 2 of (the current) 4 month old mlc.
> He would dress, shaven ..'cologned' & I would hear the car reverse, & return about 5 AM (btw these are clubs he took me to w/ his brother (!!) just before the mlc began (at that time, he would say he "likes taking his wife out" - & then the bomb dropped(?!!) shocked , followed by the hostility and list of wrong doing ... my 'charges').
> The clubbing has slowed recently (only because he is running out of $$- entertainment is costly esp. at high-end clubs). Whatever $$ he has is for HIS life. Those things he spoke of that included me are now just for him including places we were both interested in visiting ...

My reaction:
> was initially surprised, shocked, confused because I did not recognize this of course.
> child has also had many life events to cope with including one - just a year ago. I didn't want to be rash re my child/10 who is not coping well as it is, so I am trying to handle this very carefully (this forum has been PRECIOUS!! )

> H has had major job issues/ & failed goals which he told me about in the past and got depressed over (years!!).
> H in a lot of denial & is against therapy("too intrusive").
> Soooo I gave him space/distance & he improved a bit -> Up to last night, he inlcuded me when he took me over to his friend & his mature-ish in style looking wife. This was a change after being left alone for months re 'social' (i also know that he would not want his good friend to know of this just yet anyway) But still emotionally distant - no connection

> He went to kid's school activites with us, & to hikes w/family
> also invited the same couple over to our home one evening. He clearly doesn't mind my being with them. But anything remotely glamourous is a no no (I am not overweight & friends tell me I look good for my age), so I realize he's in the market when in the 'meat markets' and leaves me for other scenarios (kid, hikes/nature, mature/slower paced couples & their wives - which is fine! am NOT shallow, just observant! eek ).

I suppose that this is a small improvement but he is still very depressed & disconnected. doesn't really talk to me. We walk on mornings because he wants the exercise anyway. He makes small talk then - for me it feels superficial. i am with a roomate not a partner & the abrupt change is hurtful and stressful.

I am trying to work on myself as advised here/db - but can't seem to get out of this rut! how do other mlc-spouses partners deal with it?

I feel confused, it's hard to know how to act, am sad a lot of the time, hide my tears ...how to get past this frozen state to a contructive one? Want to move forward, while he figures out what he needs to.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2460589 06/15/14 08:49 PM
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Hi P. Welcome to one of the crappiest clubs on the planet - the MLCr club. smile

There are some items 'stickied' at the top of the forum. Have you read those yet? Cadet has a tendency to pop by and post a consolidated list, but in the meantime those should be good reading.

Your conversation reminds me of a good friend of mine. He went through similar, although for a short-ish period of time. Several years. He was depressed, had difficulty sleeping, tried all kinds of new things, flirted with pretty young things, etc. He eventually came out of it and he and his wife are doing great. It could have gone either way, and had absolutely nothing to do with his wife. Nothing. Her only contribution during the entire time was listening to him and not kicking him out. smile

What I'm getting at is that no matter what a MLCr says and does and accuses, it's not about you. It's about them and them trying to survive day to day. Even if you can't see it, there's usually a tremendous amount of turmoil and difficulty.

You can't stop it, change it, or otherwise make it better. You can get out of the way and let it burn itself out. He has to figure it out and he has to do so alone.

HTH,

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
AJM #2460590 06/15/14 09:01 PM
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Do self care when you feel frozen.

Things that are easy that you really like.

At the beginning of my husbands crisis I couldnt read anything, which up to that point in my life was a big way I relaxed. I started going to yoga more and more instead. It was kind of a pain and a financial burden doing yoga instead of reading cause also with 2 young kids I had to ask my mom babysit.

My mom did not want to babysit while I did yoga, she thought it was frivolous. But taking care of me was the best thing I could do for myself during that "frozen" period.

Wow, I remember it well - almost like you are moving in molasses.

I also wrote and checked these boards non stop and found Alanon meetings, which I love love love.

I know how hard it is but dont forget to count your blessings


----
M 39
H 35
D5,D4
M 4
T 9
ILYBNILWY 5/18/11
Left 7/11/11
Divorced 12/1/13

BklynMom #2460666 06/16/14 02:57 AM
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Welcome to this board.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)

I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.

I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

The link for the resources:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1539436

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Doormat tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...444#Post1942444

Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1

Why they run:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=67406&page=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...6668#Post526668

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=714209

Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

Odds and Ends of MLC(new from Delboy)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=656357#Post656357

MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1

Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.

I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.

The stages of MLC as rewritten by HB from Jim Conway are a template
which can only be laid over an MLCer's experience retrospectively.
It's impossible to see the pattern until it has finished being laid or the crisis is complete.(nickel Cyrena).
So do not be too concerned where your MLC'er is in this process.
(Although my general guess is that they are in REPLAY)

Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!

Believe none of what she says and 50% of what she does.

I would not ask her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your W as controlling or pressure.

Lets not worry about her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.

Detach the single most important thing to DO.

Your W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

Last edited by Cadet; 06/16/14 02:58 AM.

Me-70, D37,S36
Cadet #2460692 06/16/14 09:44 AM
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Are you still here?


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
pbetra #2460793 06/16/14 06:18 PM
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Hi pbetra,
Depression and MLC go hand in hand. My W has been fighting depression for a very long time and has never really gotten past it. You're going to find that most MLCers have a history of depression at one point BEFORE they leave the real world for the world of Replay (where your H is now). He is trying to replay the past but this time "getting it right". This can last awhile so get strapped in and ready for a bumpy ride! This is where they will spew and blame YOU for every bad thing that has ever happened and happens now. Don't believe them for a second! This isn't your fault. You didn't break him and you can't fix him. All you can do is deal, become the best person you can be, get out of his way and let him deal with his situation. Harder than it sounds.

Time for you to GAL and do some 180's, not for him or to save your marriage but for you as you are going to be tested and you are going to be on your own for the duration. The sooner you understand that you can't believe anything they say and 50% of what you see the better off you will be. Again, not easy and I still need work myself but what they think and feel will change so fast and they will not see that they are wrong in any way. To them you are the problem right now. They are right and will feel justified in any action they take no matter how it affects you or anyone else.

There will be some really good people who will help you along the way. Listen to them, they really do care. Good luck and welcome!

Matt165 #2460846 06/16/14 09:14 PM
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Thanks to ALL re your replies! I felt better after reading!

AJM - I have to disagree w/you though! smile This is NOT a crappy club. LOL Since MLC will occur, & is obvoiusly 'an evolutionary flaw', clubs like this are a lifeline ;0). So many of us are isolated by our spouses, it is great to feel less so here. Will check the stickies as you suggested. Appreciate the reassurance “it’s NOT me”!! Yay! Thx again.

BklynMom - I also thought of yoga, but as I mentioned before, I really don’t have the extra cash at the moment. I also have ill parent and am carer re: her. Whatever cash I get, I pay for help some days to get break/rest. The reason I was concerned about my 'frozen nature' is to be able to write & illustrate - my only means of income. I am considering starting (yoga) on my own until I can afford to take classes. It’s a good idea (4 mind & body!!) thx again

CadeT I see what AJM meant (!)
re: >> Cadet has a tendency to pop by and post a consolidated list, but in the meantime those should be good reading.<<
i did actually start reading some of the resources /stickies just after posting (wrong sequence I know LOL), but had so much nervous energy & could not reveal here that I just posted). Thx for the comprehensive list!! I am looking forward to learning more - 'Knowledge is power' ... it creates more control for self, & I think it is that lack of control that gets us experiencing nervous energy & listlessness. The unpredictably of what the spouse/partner will do/say next. Appreciated.

MrBond - 'death yet a new life' (speaks ‘volumes’). It is wonderful to read your reply (like the others). The posters' responses & perspectives bring some semblance of sanity back to me, after being immersed in this choking, fast-whirling, unrecognizable crud. crazy


Matt165
Just read your post as I was coming on board to respond. Thank you for the valuable advice & words of encouragement. It was good to read of your own experience re: this. It's encouraging - the experience is so awful. I know I will re-visit whenever I fall off the tracks LOL


Really wish that I found this site before!
Thx again ALL for taking the time to respond

pbetra


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2460851 06/16/14 09:32 PM
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Spunky. That's a good thing smile

One thing to reconsider
Quote:
So many of us are isolated by our spouses
Nobody has ever made me do anything I didn't want to do. Sure I was given choices that made it seem like something they wanted was the better choice. But in the end, I never did anything I didn't want to. Know what I mean?

It's important to understand that we are in control of ourselves. And it's important to understand we cannot control anyone else. That's a key to all of this and its why often, although we are the LBS, we find that we are fine if they come or go (as long as it's not frequently wink )

Something to ponder as you get your legs under you.

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
AJM #2461033 06/17/14 03:10 PM
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re: >>> we are in control of ourselves... important to understand we cannot control anyone else <<<
This is one of my 'memos' - can no longer handle H's yo-yo-ing moods.

AJM - I do have to learn to believe re some 'control'. I have had so many fear issues. I realize that this experience may be a good thing for me b/cause H has anger issues & it compounds my personal sense of peace. I have a lot of self examination to do (esp since 'no spring chicken').

I have not felt in control:
> financially strapped (w/diminshing work opp. & greater expenses)
> ill parent/advanced dementia - for whom I am primary carer
> child w/ emotional issues who relies on me, confides in me.
> history *w/H is similar re father. did not recognize this early on (have self esteem, LOTS of fear issues frown history of introversion. *I did 'this' to myself ... )
Anyway, re: all of the above - I was trying my best to get a grip on these, finding a 'rhythm' ... when this (!!!) happened -
> H's MLC.

All 'mental health issues' to juggle with 'key' people in my life.
A parent, a child a spouse.

I wondered how much more I could take & felt so out of control - did not know I could cry that much or that long!
(WISH I had found here months ago (!), but I did & that's all that matters).

With the opportunity for self searching, I didn't know where to begin, hence the rut post. smile
I am trying to get past 'the rut' to figure out what's good for me, someway to ('sustainably') feel/be better long term.
I want to be less uncertain, less mentally tired & in a fog with never ending burdens for a life. The constant fatigue & stress just results in more errors that cycle more errors & 'more this', 'more that', more draining, emotional burn out ... (all w/less understanding & even more blame). btw it's different the other way around. LOL Life's burdens I can accept, I'm a grown up, I may not like them but that's life & I'm better off than many people anyway! It's just harder to cope with unnecessary strain compounding already challenging situations, & being made to feel responsible for all of life's misfortunes at the same time.

This 'curse' will be a 'blessing' in the long run (as mentioned above). I know that, even though I don't 'feel it' right now.
I will control ME.

Well, on to 'rut-busting' then! Thx again for the advice. smile
pbetra

ps I hope that one day I could be at helpful to you all, as you all have been to me.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2461042 06/17/14 03:52 PM
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Hi pbetra,
Sounds to me like you and I have some things in common. When my W was depressed (started about 7 years ago and the worst lasted 3 years) I took over doing everything. I worked, W didn't. I made dinner, picked up kids from school, cleaned, took care of kids and animals, went to school meetings, you name it, I did it. I ran myself ragged and when my W was finally able to go back to work and start being a part of the family again, in came MLC!

I, like you, feel like I never seem to get a break. That just when I thought maybe I could count on some help from my W, she went away on her journey of self! In my case all my W can say as to why she must end our M is that she is "unhappy". She can't tell me why she feels that she must run and I'm left to look at myself and see on my own the things I did that helped get us all to where we are now. We didn't deserve to be stuck being the one who had to take care of everything but we both did allow it to happen. I am trying to understand why it is that I allowed this to become OK with me. What is it about me that thought and still thinks that it was acceptable that I be put in that position? Why did I think that because I did this I was showing my W my love and devotion?

At the same time what did SHE see? Did she see me trying to help, show her I was there for her no matter what? Or did she see me trying to control things? These are the kind of questions I am now trying to ask myself.

The thing about being an LBS (left behind spouse) is that we CAN ask ourselves these kind of questions and change the things about ourselves and our lives that NEED changing. The MLC S doesn't do that. They will take the things that caused them to be so very unhappy into their next R. Will repeat the same mistakes over and again until they are able to ask themselves these kind of things and change what they need to in order to be the best person they can be. This is the advantage we have that they don't. This is the good that I must bring into probably the worst situation I have ever faced in my life and you have the same opportunity.

Don't buy into the blame that your H will heap on you. They are hurting and they don't know why and like a drowning man will take you down with them if you aren't careful. I know my W is hurting, I see it every day. The thing is I now know that I can't help her, she must do it alone. Time for both of us to work on ourselves and maybe some day our S will start to see what it was that caused them to feel the pain and doubt, see that it wasn't the person who loved them. Until that day all you can do is try to be the best person you can for yourself and your kids!

Good luck, we are here for you!

Matt165 #2461047 06/17/14 04:12 PM
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Quote:
The thing about being an LBS (left behind spouse) is that we CAN ask ourselves these kind of questions and change the things about ourselves and our lives that NEED changing. The MLC S doesn't do that.


I disagree, I think they ARE trying to fix some things about themselves, just in a way we don't particularly like, or particularly adaptive for regular life. But they are.

One thing that was very tough for me to "get" is that they are not doing this to us, necessarily, but rather for themselves.

W, who is seemingly leaving the tunnel, even said as much...she didnt "want to hurt us"...she just was compelled to do what she did and lost her empathy chip for a while.

Until I "got" that, I was running around all butt-hurt and angry/emotional, and not at my best for my kids.

Once I did, MY healing and journey truly began.

My 2 cents...


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm

TSquared2 #2461058 06/17/14 04:48 PM
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that's an excellent point tsquared2.... well said!


Me - 42
exH - 56
Married 10.5 years
Together 17
bomb dropped 1/6/14
signed papers 2/4/14
H moved out 2/22/14
D final 4/4/14
Dropped the rope 5/17/14
2 cats, 2 dogs
TSquared2 #2461063 06/17/14 05:03 PM
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T2 is 100% correct in saying that MLCers are trying to fix some things about themselves. They go back to a time where they were emotionally stunted to try to figure out why and how it happened and it is at this time in their lives where they have to begin growing up. Many of the MLCers were abused in some fashion, others were not recognized for their accomplishments, some didn't receive affirmation and some were ignored when there were other siblings that may have been far better in academics or sports. Whatever the reason, they have to go back to that age and deal w/their demons, accept the things that they can't fix/change w/respect to authority figures, losses, etc., and hopefully then begin to grow up and become better, more mature individuals on the other side of the tunnel.

What they do and how they go about it is not the "adult" and/or "mature" way of going about things because they are on a "emotional" journey and when emotionally charged, they don't think rationally or act like adults. Unfortunately, we all tend to forget that we have to learn to accept them for who they are today and not who they were pre-crisis.

One day, hopefully, they will come out the other side and be someone that is mature and far wiser than they were going into the tunnel...but time will tell on how they bake up.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
TSquared2 #2461069 06/17/14 05:16 PM
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Good point T2!
I guess I should have said in a way that makes sense to us. One common theme I have seen from those that have come through the MLC tunnel is that, once they get to the other side, almost all of them see that the things that they tried weren't the things that they needed. They looked to the outside, to the people or things around them when where they should have been looking all along is inside. It isn't until they see this that they truly are able to find peace. How many find that losing weight, buying sprees, dumping S, having an A, etc. actually make them happy? It's not until they try all those type of things and still nothing changes that they start to make real progress.

You are right. They aren't doing anything for or to anyone but themselves and I know that in my case my W isn't punishing me or doing anything TO me. It's just, like you said, "not particularly adaptive to regular life".

job #2461070 06/17/14 05:17 PM
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They may well be trying to fix themselves, but at least some of them are deliberately trying to hurt and are cruel to their former spouse and family

Some of the damage is collateral, some is vindictive. OK it may be due to their hurt. I used to believe it wasn't personal, now I think that a lot of it is.

beatrice #2461077 06/17/14 05:30 PM
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I agree beatrice, in some cases, or some fashion, especially after following your sitch, some do turn vindictive.

I know a few of the meaner things W did/said during the anger stage were directed right at me, on purpose.


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm

beatrice #2461081 06/17/14 05:34 PM
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I think beatrice, that some of them are so unable to face that the demons they face are their own, they need to blame someone or something else and of course that is the person they were closest to. My W has said when she was lucid, that she has tried so many things to be "happy". She was a mother, she was a wife, she lost weight, she threw herself into her work and nothing changed. Now she thinks that the biggest change she can see is no longer being married. She said she was never "depressed" before she got married so maybe once she is own her own, totally in control of every part of her life (who is?), she will be happy.

Of course she was never depressed before she had kids, lived in TX, had 3 dogs, etc. No, easier to blame her "bad marriage" as that can be fixed without the pain of looking inside herself for the answers. They also seem to not like that we aren't in pain like they are. They are angry because they want to blame you and make you feel as bad as they do! That's just a thought. I could be wrong. But like T2 said if the "empathy chip" is not working, they can't care about anyone else!

TSquared2 #2461083 06/17/14 05:36 PM
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Maybe my xh's anger stage is still going on - nine years of anger!! Seriously I would not wish my xh's behaviour on anyone.

He is so angry with everyone. It is like a volcano. When it isn't erupting it is steaming and smoking!! And he used to be such a very very nice kind person.

beatrice #2461148 06/17/14 08:22 PM
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Hi Bea,
Just read some of your thread and my goodness, your ex is fruit loops!The weirdest part of all that, is how he was such a loving and caring guy before his MLC! I have seen how they can change from loving and caring into a selfish, only care about what they "need" (away from us is usually #1)person but he has become something out of a movie!

Of course the line about the only reason people think he is acting "wrong' is because you poisoned them against him is so par for the course. My W hasn't even left yet and is already accusing me of PLANNING to do just that. Not even that I have! She just knows I'm going to do it! I think what she and your exH really "know" is that they are in the wrong and are afraid of facing up to what they are doing is wrong in almost anyone's book.

I wish I had something that could help but I have no idea what you should do. Witness protection? For a guy who decided to leave his wife and family for some OW he sure seems to think he is such a saint! Not sure how some of these WAS's live with themselves. Must be really awful being THAT angry all the time!

Good luck Bea! You WILL win out in the end!

Matt165 #2461149 06/17/14 08:31 PM
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Oh he didn't 'decide' to leave his wife and family - we should never have married. For reasons he doesn't understand he just stayed around and participated in family life (without ever enjoying it)

My absolute favourite is his claim that the OW had nothing to do with it (well in a sense they don't) but really it is right up there with 'the dog ate my homework'

Sooooo he was unhappy for 35 years, and then this woman comes along (and boy was OW1 strange - even my xh admits that now) he decides to leave. Ummmmm it makes sense to him, and I really am too punch drunk to care.

It is actually pretty funny when it isn't too painful!

beatrice #2461160 06/17/14 08:54 PM
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Oh Bea, I hear you!
My stbxW actually told me that she hasn't loved me since BEFORE we got married 20 YEARS AGO! Said that she just did it because she felt it was time for her to get married. She leaves out the 2 years before that I worked while she finished college as she didn't want to be married before she was through. Or the fact that we had 2 kids together, the 2nd one we tried for a full year for her to conceive and she wanted to go to a fertility clinic if it took much longer. I'm sure she would do that if she didn't love me. Nope, she was just not feeling it the whole time. Never mind all the home movies where she is so happy and loving. All the times she swore how we would grow old together because she loved me so much and what a great husband and father I was.

The worst part to me is I really think they believe all that crap! Let's just be glad that we aren't that crazy. At least we know what's real and what's a very bad trip through the looking glass!

Matt165 #2461168 06/17/14 09:03 PM
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These MLCers would wipe the floor at the Oscars - their acting skills over the years are awesome

There is a line from an Hilaire Belloc poem I like - 'Her aunt, who from her earliest youth/had kept a strict regard for truth/Attempted to believe Mathilda/the effort very nearly killed her!

Maybe the best line in all of this is 'yes dear'

beatrice #2461179 06/17/14 09:38 PM
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Oh he didn't 'decide' to leave his wife and family - we should never have married. For reasons he doesn't understand he just stayed around and participated in family life (without ever enjoying it)

Welcome, belatedly Bea!
This was also said by my husband. Exactly. "We should never have married. He was never happy." Same script.

Yet, HE relentlessly pursued me. He practically begged me to pick a wedding date when I was putting it off. Up until 3 years ago he was telling people he was my "last" husband, when I'd introduced him as my 2nd husband.

I dont think they're acting. I think they BELIEVE it! They are drinking the koolaide! I asked that question of an MLCer (former) on this forum and he told me that he believed these statements when he said them to his X wife, but only later he came to look back and deeply regretted it and realized it was not true. He also said he had remorse that he could not get rid of now.


M 56 H 52
M 13.5 T 15
S 28 twinStep Ds 24
ILYBNILWY BD 1/5/14 OW 4/11/14
Divorce petition efiled 5/5/14
Divorce final 7/8/14


cczamo #2461180 06/17/14 09:41 PM
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Sorry, I meant to say welcome belatedly pbetra!
Hi Bea. You've been here longer than I have.


M 56 H 52
M 13.5 T 15
S 28 twinStep Ds 24
ILYBNILWY BD 1/5/14 OW 4/11/14
Divorce petition efiled 5/5/14
Divorce final 7/8/14


cczamo #2461200 06/17/14 11:21 PM
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The more I read on these boards the more I am amazed at how these MLC ER all say the same thing. My h also supposedly stopped loving me BEFORE we were married
He only married me because I got him out of the shower one day when he passed out and didn't yell at him. Really???? He actually told me he spent out whole marriage pretending to be happy and all the sweet romantic things and inside jokes etc he secretly hated.

Pbetra- you will find a way to get yourself out of the rut. I couldn't function for a month. My work suffered . So did my son. I also couldn't afford yoga or have time since I was always at work or with s. I did home videos. It really helped to get my mind to stop spinning. I also started meditating. Even if I could only focus for a minute it was 1 minute of peace.

You will get there. It sounds like you have a lot going on. Please be sure to take care of you too.


Me 44 H 42
M 10 T 12 (at time of BD)
Ss 20 16
S11 (special needs)

BD 9/13 H "unhappy for years" moves to seperate bedroom
10/13 EA/PA confirmed but denied
S and I move out 3/15
juliegayle #2461298 06/18/14 08:15 AM
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According to my xh my (late) father made him marry me. In fact my father liked a previous bf of mine much more.

Do they believe it? I don't know. It seems to me more like a toddler screaming and saying 'I hate you'. At that moment they 'believe' it, but it isn't their psychological truth. Their feelings for us are getting in the way of everything they do, and that is causing the frustration and resentment.

The script comes out of this emotional state, and because that is the commonality, it explains the similarity.

Consider the cliche of the kid and cookie jar: 'It wasn't me, I wasn't there, and I didn't do it anyway Oh and my sister/bf made me' It is the reaction of the guilty found out!

I would almost be a relief to have a new response. Nearly nine years on I am still getting the same garbage. Give me a break. The re-runs are boring.

beatrice #2461305 06/18/14 09:31 AM
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Beatrice- re the toddler ref. At one point my h actually ran down the hall screaming I hate you I hate you I hate you and then slammed the door. It was at that point I knew I was no longer dealing with a rational adult


Me 44 H 42
M 10 T 12 (at time of BD)
Ss 20 16
S11 (special needs)

BD 9/13 H "unhappy for years" moves to seperate bedroom
10/13 EA/PA confirmed but denied
S and I move out 3/15
juliegayle #2461343 06/18/14 01:23 PM
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Hi Julie,
When my W and I were talking about custody of our D14 (a very deep and important and painful subject) she told me what she wanted and when I didn't just agree and only said "I'm not sure that is a good idea...", she not only didn't let me finish the sentence, she ran screaming "I knew you would try and keep me away from my D! I hate you!" and HID from me! I had to look all over the house for her and I found her, like a toddler, hiding in the corner of the pantry! When I told her that wasn't the case, I just wasn't sure the way she wanted to do it (7 days with her, 7 with me) was best. She then gave me 30 min's to come up with what I thought would be best. 30 min's? Really?

Yes, they are very child like. They are so worried about their new friends and what they think of them, how they will "look" to other people. It makes the whole process of D/separation, so much harder when these are subjects that can such lasting effects on so many and they can't be rational.

Of course, knowing that this is a script, that we aren't alone in hearing this crap does help somewhat. It doesn't change that we must go through this pain but it does show us that we aren't the ones who saw all our history the "wrong" way!

Matt165 #2461403 06/18/14 04:15 PM
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matt165
we do have similar experiences. Thx for sharing!

re: >> am trying to understand why it is that I allowed this to become OK with me. What is it about me that thought and still thinks that it was acceptable that I be put in that position? Why did I think that because I did this I was showing my W my love and devotion? <<

I am a naturally empathic person, understanding, non-judgemental, good listener, never repeats someone else's biz (it is for them to do so). Many people misunderstand that for weakness, stupidity. I know my H does.

I felt that I was being understanding toward someone who I cared for. I assume the same with you (!?) - this is what spouses do for their partners & relationships, otherwise we would be roomies or acquaintances. We chose to be advocates with this partner as we navigate the ONE life we have together! That's why I did it anyway - this was also my life friend ... why wouldn't I be understanding?

Someone told me about an English movie Tamara Drewe. It's no blockbuster & not everyone's 'cuppa tea' as movies go. However, infidelity was an issue >> when asked why you cheat on your W, the cheating H answered "because she lets me" << smirk

I have no intention of changing - I like myself, I'm just not the most confident about myself in many areas (& know why).
My attitude is to be more selective to not be taken advantage of & to reserve my energy for those who would act likewise.

Thx too for the reminder re: blame smile. This was hard at first - wondering what I did so very wrong ...
I cannot believe the pettiness I hear sometimes! 15 yrs of marriage & my "expression that day" - it goes on. If he thought about it, he would realize it makes no sense. Right now I am just trying to get out of this rut in an effort to move forward. The flux has been too much.

You seem to be managing 'well enough' matt165. Good luck to you as well re: your own efforts & peace of mind. Thx again for your kind words & support.
pbetra


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

beatrice #2461610 06/19/14 01:43 AM
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beatrice, have you been living w/ your mlc spouse ?


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

cczamo #2461611 06/19/14 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: cczamo
Sorry, I meant to say welcome belatedly pbetra!
Hi Bea. You've been here longer than I have.


thx cczamo!


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2461656 06/19/14 08:06 AM
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No, not since late 2005, except intermittently in 2006. I think those living under the same roof have it hardest. I spent some of the summer of 2006 living in the same house (we had two homes) getting it ready to sell, and it was a nightmare.

In retrospect I can see clearly how crazy he was and how broken i was.

beatrice #2461662 06/19/14 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: beatrice
No, not since late 2005, except intermittently in 2006. I think those living under the same roof have it hardest. I spent some of the summer of 2006 living in the same house (we had two homes) getting it ready to sell, and it was a nightmare.

In retrospect I can see clearly how crazy he was and how broken i was.


Thx beatrice - I agree, living w/ MLCer must be hardest
(even more) food for thought


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2462196 06/21/14 03:34 PM
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P, part of the thing to consider is that living under the same roof is a *chance* to reconcile things. Not necessarily save your marriage, but reconcile. Living in separate houses makes that more difficult.
That doesn't mean you should contort yourself to be what you think he wants. That's a crazy path that will drive you insane smile But it is to say that close proximity is helpful if it works for you. No matter what, be you and let him be him.

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
AJM #2462460 06/22/14 09:29 PM
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Thx for this AJM. I had not really thought of this 'other aspect', but you are right.

We were not friends when his insults & nastiness began about 4 months ago (and H can be brutal, rough! (words), hurtful & crude - it doesn't matter how hard it hurt me - 'I just got it'. eek

I nearly kicked him out one night, after he 'set me up'. Took me out one day, bought lunch & treated me nicely all day because he knew there would be deception that night. It was hurtful because we had all come from a lovely family vacation & I had no idea about what was really developing (this was earlier stage of H's MLC, so I did not recognize it or know anything about it). shocked confused
Anyway, the next day, I thought of my child (who is not yet over recent major changes & is still affected).

Being under the same roof did lead to more civilty between us eventually. I also began to understand that there was more to his actions - his misfortunes & background had caught up w/him, translated through MLC.

It's a double edge sword to live w H - he really fluctuates re mood & behaviour. This was the reason for my wondering how spouses manage (!!) /live with MLCers.

However, there are 2 sides to everything! And everyone, like their situation is different. I know that it can go either way b/cuz of how it affects me. However, 'my take care of me goals' are not yet mature & still very much in their infancy. I will have to wait to see if that will work & distract me enough to live under same roof (esp for child). To be continued' ... frown LOL

Thx again AJM.
Take care, p


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

Matt165 #2471013 07/21/14 06:06 PM
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Am back where I started, 'here'/mlc rut as previously indicated. (from confrontation methods my 'accidental theme thread' - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...743#Post2468743) Again sorry about incnvenience. I realize that I had 2 other posts in that thread from Wonka & MrBond, which I will get to afterward.

Also had med.issue to take care of (not serious), and lost my online diary this week. Had tons of personal research from web, DB 'research' including Cadet's homework threads & many other forum members'posts. Also had MLCer/Me observations ... all gone!

Unfortunately, what I have currently write will not be followed by the records leading up to today, as I am unable to recall so much.
But the beat goes on! wink.

What I can say, is that I had growing resentment recently - didn't plan it, it just happened. Then indifference. (I will tell you about the impact of resentment & indifference in a bit).

I have been thinking about the past on & off for the last few months.

The M issues:

We both had - I suggested MC/T. at the time. H was VERY strongly against. (Would end M now if I were discovered on DB). I felt a T. would be 'outside of our emotional experience', would be objectve, could offer direction & advice going forward. I have been to therapy, so have my family whenever I felt burdened and neeede a load off. I've read self help. Started w/ Shyness, Philip Zimbardo at 17!! For H's family - theses things are very taboo. They judge & label effortlessly.

Enjoy life, each other & networks as couple:

After a while we both looked past certain things. Life wasn't so bad after all, we didn't know of any couple with issue free M! I didn't live in war torn zone, or famine affected region, or victim of 'darkest sides of humanity,' wasn't terminally ill (as a carer years ago, got small window into the world of the terminally ill. The FEAR resinated with me, the lack of control & helplessness at the time ... Lost my best friend at 20 - she mentioned experiencing term. illness & death ALONE. So really - what did I really have to 'gripe' about?

Life was not so bad:
Outdoor activities, road trips & travel, parties (attended & hosted), new places, new experiences, eating out, concerts, a home always filled w/people. we enjoyed our autonomy fully before starting family years after. Felt way more (!!)connected back then.


Things changed RADICALLY when the recession hit:

- job /employemnt: grew worse over a period of years.
- goals: dream goal, H's major g. failed. H told me years ago that he "had NEVER failed at anything/didn't know what that was like". He planned meticously & worked HARD for his ambitions. practicaly borderline type A approach! Money is practically an obsession with H's family. Said he "worked hard to never have to need them". H dominant mother talk about it a lot, control family & $$. They are a splinctered family.

Other:
- milestone birthday: we are late 40's/early 50's in the air. Said "not ready for 50's", told me not to say my age, people treat you differently (true). My mother ws open re: age as was I but I 'complied'
Hospitalized: just under 10 days prior to bomb, elderly relative got hospitalized. had good relationship. Saw drooling, lack of control, helplessness - briefly assisted before walking away.
(btw: my father was dominant, controlling. i don't like 'confrontation' - had enough of that re: him)

Thinking last week:

i noticed that whenever there is job prospect, H talks, is more like himself. I don't come from fam. that equated worth w/ $$ or job status. My parents liked decency first, then went from there. H's family is all abou There would be personal attacks esp. by mother although dripping in honey. I recall 'checkpoints along way of career' - always asking him of his progress or status re: work. I was also checke don as new wife in M - I ended R with them all after a while. This did nto bother H who ended it many years later after trying ot resolve his fam issues & feeling 'emotionally taxed, conceding defeat'.

Have to end here - back later, p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

Matt165 #2471079 07/21/14 09:15 PM
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I don't know if everything finally got to me - but I stopped being careful or nice. I didn't respond too graciously to compliments - just brushed them off really quickly because I was tired of the hyprocrisy. Always the compliments just before leaving all dressed & 'cologned' ... as though that's salve or it makes a difference. Just preferred no words, DO what you usually do. I just wanted him to go!

I took the evening to pamper myself. I am generally homebound due to resources &/or responsibilities. Anyway, I know it wasn't the ideal reaction, but I felt to be/feel what I wanted to. Everything else arounds demands unrelenting patience these days. I am very alone & doing every single thing - I've always been patient anyway, long before this, and very rarely experience patience the other way around. So, I didn't think - I felt. I was so fed up - & then remainied in the bathroom for some pampering grin

Anyway, I think h picked up on the subtle cold breezes from me in our home. A few days ago, for the first time in a long time, I was spoken with - just casually. This was the first 'conversation' in a while instead of the disappearing act into the guest room, after a one liner when we do cross paths in the home.

His eyes were interesting during the conversation. Sad, searching. I think he was trying to recognize what in me was different. Independence maybe? Loss of dependability? (always taken for granted). I don't know, it was hard 'to read, but it was a pleasant conversation with him doing the initiating on both occasions.

Then, got my hair done re: weekend. h already had plans but I could tell H was curious. The next day he mentioned dinner to which I casually said "ok, would be nice - let's play by ear" (because I've heard this before & it just 'goes away' - words & no follow up action). That night, he did ask me to dinner.

It was awkward to know exactly how to act, what to say, b/cuz of the hand holding, stroking like before (?!!), attentive manner during the drive (& it was like old times, like him). It threw me a curve ... I was lost! shocked I was pleasant but genuinely puzzled. He remained pleasant for the 2 days after before withdrawing a little on the 3rd (obviously due to fear should I believe & misunderstand this to be that he loves me again laugh )

I know from DB not to get too excited. Quite frankly, I don't have energy to get excited re: him. I am lucky too met someone who's going through the same re her S, & hope to get together!! Looking forward to it. ... just hanging out.

Anyway, remained pleasant & am trying to respond so that he doesn't feel discouraged but still give him his much needed space. He really does not seem to know what he wants.

I try re: GAL as much as I can (for now)
Am detaching gradually (but still have work to do) & getting back to meditation (only interrupted because tof surprise events the past few days).

bye 4 now, p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2471124 07/22/14 12:43 AM
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Hi pbetra,
With my W's family, there are 2 sides. Her father left her, her brother and mother when she was 10 years old and it was an awful D. He abandoned his kids totally and never paid a penny in CS (was wanted for a time in the state where his kids lived), he left and put all assets in OW's name, made sure the D took long enough that the kids were over 18 when it ended (11 years!!) and her mom got only the family home, nothing more. Her mothers side of the family are really good people. They don't care how much money a person has, just what kind of person you are. Her fathers side...all about net worth! This wasn't a problem until W's father, after the death of his father, suddenly wanted to "make up" for all the bad things he had done to my W all her life. The thing is, for him to accept HER, she had to leave me as he said she was "wasting" her life as a mother and wife!

This drove my W into a deep depression as she has always wanted her fathers love and acceptance. That was 8 years ago and now that she has done what HE wanted her to do, he is totally running her life. Since about 3 months before she left he went from contacting her maybe once every 3 months to calling her 3-4 times a day and texting all the time. He talked her into changing her mind about filing for D, leaving the home, going to MC and she listens. It goes the same every time. She tells him no, I don't want to do X, he tells her over and over that she should do X and manipulates her into changing her mind. Even my D's say how "different (bad)" she is when she is around her father. He is the only person that has backed what she is doing. But she so badly wants his love and acceptance she only listens to him. It also doesn't help that he has cancer (very bad) and she feels it's now or never for her to get him accept her.

She says she wants to live her life on her own terms (why she had to leave) but allows her father to make every decision, down to where she puts her bed in HER room in her new house! Until she stops allowing him to run her life she will never get through her MLC as she will never experience what life on her own terms is like.

My W has become just like her father when it comes to money. She makes very good money in her job. She has now taken on a 2nd job as well! It's also not a coincidence that B-day came 3 months after the company I had worked for for 11 years closed (I was making more than her up to that point) and I started working for a startup where I wasn't making much at all. She said she would back me knowing it would take a long time to start making the same money as before but when it came down to it, she couldn't stand that I was making less than her. Her fathers side of the family influence.

To her mothers side of the family, she was successful. She has raised 2 kids (one 19, other 14), she was a good mother, married a good man who loved her, sacrificed "things" for giving her kids the best head start in life (private school, etc.), now has a good career helping others. To her fathers side she was a failure. She lives in a small older home, doesn't have a high "net worth", doesn't vacation every years in exotic places. To gain the acceptance from her dad she had to dump her old life completely. Add in MLC and thinking she needs to be "happy" and she's not, this is what she is doing.

We think that our s's have overcome their family backgrounds after 20 years or more together. The thing is they never really did. Of course like any M we had our problems (like you and H did). But they weren't so bad as to warrant dumping so many years together. What happened to our M's wasn't about what we did or didn't do, whether the M was bad or good. It's about the influences our S's families have had and are still having on their psyches. The push and pull of wanting their parents love and acceptance vs. living their own lives. I really believe MLC starts many years before we ever knew our S's. They are never really over issues from their past and once they reach middle age they start to panic thinking time is running out to resolve those issues.

Just something I've been thinking.

Matt165 #2471498 07/23/14 12:14 AM
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>> after the death of his father, suddenly wanted to "make up" for all the bad things he had done to my W all her life. The thing is, for him to accept HER, she had to leave me as he said she was "wasting" her life as a mother and wife! <<

Hi Matt165,
Thank you for your helpful post! It's comforting to read other stories where common experiences meet. I can definitely relate to so much of what you wrote.
8 years re: you! How are you?!

For me, your W's experience was really sad to read of .. so young, so abandoned, & with a lenghty & calculated D, weaved by her father. And now this, the re-emergence of her father in HER life. So selfish (& 'sick' - he had his 'turn' ... to marry, have a family & has denied her that experience). It's no wonder she's in crisis & unable to break free. It's almost as if she were frozen in time, then awakened by his return & picked up where she left off - even though so much TIME elapsed in between.

I guess she isn't "wasting her life" anymore fulfilling HIS needs/wants & being controlled - incredible. I know of these types of people who fall off your 'life map', & then simply 'show up' in their old age, often when their sitch is less than ideal. In his case, age & illness. If W's father was wealthy with an elegant European socialite living the good life - Swiss Alps, Bora Bora, Kenya, Seychelles ... I doubt she would even be aware of his eventual passing!!

It is interesting how much stronger the negative of the two parents (also w/people generally), impact on individuals. You see, I was also reading how much more we are are likely to cycle negative experiences over positive ones. Apparently evolutionary development! Our ancestors were not the ones who looked at the world positively frown . They were negative and they SURVIVED & here we are!! (will fall off cliff, get mauled by bear, bitten by snake). No 'Disney thinking' here. Of course, we don't need that anymore with the level of information & progress we enjoy today, but like many evolutionary developments we still carry the 'wiring'.

When I read of your W, you are right, I don't know if she is strong enough to shake him off or get through MLC. He's manipulating the heart & mind of a little girl.

>> It's about the influences our S's families have had and are still having on their psyches. The push and pull of wanting their parents love and acceptance vs. living their own lives. <<

I will remember this, as it is beautifully put. Your thinking is 'dead on'. Regardless of what we did/didn't do, if the damage is there & buried, a life transition period will eventually trigger & open the Pandora's box of the MLCer's miserable history. Unfortunately, since the parent(s) 'breaks' their self esteem, then the parent can effectively heal hurt feelings or NOT.

My H's mother is still trying to get her way, even in old age! The difference of course, is that we no longer have her in our life, unlike your sitch.

I am not familiar with your sitch (4 now) wink but you seem to be doing well?
Until next time, take care, p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2471607 07/23/14 12:39 PM
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Thanks for the kind words pbetra,
It helps to know all that I wrote about. I knew going into our R that my W had major family issues re: her father. But I thought that she had learned from her experiences, she said she did. And with the fact that he wasn't a big part of her life (he didn't even bother to tell her when he remarried, let alone be invited to the wedding), I thought I was "safe" from his negative influence. All it took was him coming back in her life at a "bad" time when she was already going through a transition, and that was it. The little 10 year old girl inside her who so wanted (wants) her daddy's love came out to play.

The problem now is there is nothing I can do. There is no way for me to help pull her back to reality. Her father has now destroyed not only his family but my and his D's family as well. What makes someone so very evil as to even WANT to do that? How does a grown man act the way he does and have zero remorse?

I have always tried my best to be the best father I can be to my girls. I know one day they will leave and start families of their own and while I'll still be a part of their lives, I understand that is their time to live the best life possible. To have the ups and downs, good and bad of their own family. I KNOW that they will never be hurt by the things I do now. If only their mother were strong enough to break free of the awful past her father gave her.

Matt165 #2472601 07/25/14 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: Matt165
I knew going into our R that my W had major family issues re: her father. ... All it took was him coming back in her life at a "bad" time when she was already going through a transition, and that was it. The little 10 year old girl inside her who so wanted (wants) her daddy's love came out to play.

What a lethal combination! A nasty past & midlife! Although you "knew" that there were some issues initially - there is NO way you could have known or been prepared for 'THIS' ... This outcome or her father's timing, being perfect for HIM of course!

The problem now is there is nothing I can do. There is no way for me to help pull her back to reality. Her father has now destroyed not only his family but my and his D's family as well. What makes someone so very evil as to even WANT to do that? How does a grown man act the way he does and have zero remorse?

Her father is cold & selfish. Since these 'attributes' are not the ones needed by parents, he has effectvely destroyed so much of her life. If she is lucky, she may get past one day, bu tdon't hold your breath. You are right - there is not much you can do. You can only GAL & that too will increase the probability that your D has a CHANCE at life.

I have always tried my best to be the best father I can be to my girls. ... I KNOW that they will never be hurt by the things I do now. If only their mother were strong enough to break free of the awful past her father gave her.

I believe that it was Kim Basinger who said the following during an interview - "It takes the truth a little longer to get to the finish line, BUT it gets there." Your daughters will 'see' this one day. And should you be fatigued, tell them with sincerity.

Take care, p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

Matt165 #2472612 07/25/14 09:45 PM
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Just journalling re some thoughts, How To Act

I mentioned a 'window' to H's old self not too long ago. It was odd to know how to act.

There are so many things to take into consideration:
- don't believe anything they say
- their acting is 'academy award' & yet
- with sadness, you don't want to be cruel, esp if trying (VERY hard to decipher)

I was pleasant enough, but maybe 'not reciprocal' enough. It was too much after all this time (of understanding, patience & my own academy award actions, specifically PMA, even when I wanted to cry) ... all this in addition to recently blossoming, anger moments. It was NOt easy to reciprocate & did not come naturally to me. I think I did enough to not scare them. Anyway, the week went by with the individual aka H, who I hadn't seen pre MLc. And then ...

- the prospect grew less promising (social skills issues).
- immediately following that call, I felt the cool breeze - h was not hostile, but quieter & with that, distance returned. It was as if the call reinforced the fear(s?)

Having experienced this - I realize that there must be so much more shame attached to this for him. Shame I take for granted b/cuz I don't think that there is anything to be ashamed of, esp. when things are out of your control!

He communicated with me (called to update!! ) when things appeared to be working out. Today, he was gone for hours - no word, less warmth. I expect the clubbing thing to be on tonight.

Re GAL
Today, I bought some new lipstick & n/polish for my toenails grin . My new friend (also experiencing M woes) & I are to enjoy a girls day out! She planned everything & has witnessed first hand how things fall apart around me as I am unable to keep up with all. So when's he's gone tonight (& if not, it's the $), I will pamper myself, sort my paper stuff to organize my life (with music in b/grd) & read DB for even more information. After all, I won't have the time in future when I GAL!! LOL laugh
p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2475769 08/04/14 07:37 PM
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Well, I went on my 'GAL day out' with my new (& only friend grin in this new place) re: 'girls day out' - nails/facial movie, eating, FUN etc. Before leaving H asked what I would be doing. Said I wasn't sure as "friend had planned day" (which was true). It surpprised me b/cuz his msg to me was always loud/clear re: privacy, space. I can't even think of asking what he's doing/ or where he's going as it is not appreciated. When I got home after a LONG day, he filled me in re: his day & so did I (since it didn't matter to me AFTERWARD). The chit chat was light & pleasant enough whenever our paths crossed within the house.

The next morning was incredible! Rage, rage & then some MORE rage. The day began 'ok' with the usual polite but meaningless, superficial exchanges. But after an hour or so - that was it. Moodiness crept up - no arguements, just death-like cold. I could see & feel the seething rage as he came to tell me he's "stepping out for awhile". Complained about "boredom" - something to the effect of having nothing to do!! And whose fault is that?! Whenever we were bored before MLC - we would enthusiastically plan something together - & out we went!!! Now we are 'alone, together'. It's not my place to entertain H if he's sulky & throwing some sort of tantrum or 'whatever'! It was as if he was complaining to me ??? confused crazy

Later that afternoon, when he finally returned, I knew he was still clearly angry. He went straight to the guest room & was obviously ignoring me (for the last month & 1/2 or so - he would often pop in to where I am just to say hi whenever he got back. It wasn't very much but at least I knew). By then, I myself was getting angry but did not show it. I couldn't believe that the one day I go out, it might be a problem (??) I have not been anywhere w/him alone (like we used to) since the MLC (March 2014) - except for two nights. One was a fluke (not too long ago). And the other was anniversary just before that - which I knew was 'smartness' - in that he had no choice but to keep up the farce. Thought me stupid, unable to see through what was really going on & continued with cake eating. but I graciously accepted & of course it was just weird - no real connection, FLAT.

Anyway, 'getting back' ... I stayed away - ie made myself busy in MY room (previously our room!) & when I did come out (quietly) it was to arrange dinner etc (esp. 4 child). I heard him coming up to my room after a while & quietly disappeared to washroom. I really didn't want to see him. He went away as quietly as he approached the room. Anyway, I kept a low profile all afternoon and later on he snuck up on me obviously curious. I didn't hear him coming ... He was pleasant & wanted to know if I had gone out (I guess 'again') - hadn't "heard me around"

Unlike a few months ago, H also drops by my room on mornings to say hi (BRIEFLY) when he wakes up. About a week and a half, this changed a little to 15 - 20 min 'sit down & join me conversations' (!!) before going back to guest room. However, there was NOTHING the next day - the new '15/20 min sit down and talk' or the old 'brief hi' moments. Instead, I heard incredibly foul language mad from behind guest rm. door. I have to admit, it affected me. The langusge ... other than that, I wondered what I could do to get distracted.

I had so many flowers to attend to, & decided to clear my mind/'be happy', so I gardened (although I was not overly energetic). Anyway, I spent the time outside while he cussed inside LOL laugh Hours later, I snuck inside - left additional stuff for sandwiches & remaining food where it could be reached. Hours after that, h 'surfaced' to see what I "was up to" and remained pleasant for the remainder of that day.

The following day - I received a hi while having my coffee. It was a sulky & angry "hi" - what a contradiction. He was intentionally showing me that he was upset. I decided I'm not feeding that crap w/attn. I guessed it was the sex since I have been a little distant & busy trying to GAL - just LIKE HIM!!! (sex is like 'clockwork' with h). Honestly, I have been a little 'put off' since I too am also going through the motions. I've tried to be compassionate, understanding, reminding myself that i have an 'adolescent' for a spouse etc, but it's hard to get into the mood sometimes. What surprised him is that the intimidation did not work. I looked at him since he came to chit chat. But when I saw the crap, I looked away waiting for him ...

At this point I was wondering, are you going to stand there angry expecting me to kiss your butt while you sulk? If you don't want to talk - don't. Go away & come back when you do! I had NO intention of asking "are you alright?" or "what's wrong honey?" He left & I continued enjoying my coffee as I mapped out my day (& how the hell I'm going to get through all this stuff by myself !!). After a few hours, he returned - calmer or at least pretending to be.

Up to an hour ago - I heard nasty language again directed at me. It affected me - I cried. Had to get it OUT before getting back to some work.

It really is a ride! Not just a roller coaster but the merry go round too (!!), making you dizzy while you're ON the blinking roller coaster. I know time will heal - I can hardly wait.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2475889 08/05/14 01:48 AM
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Hey Pbetra

Throw in a tilt-a-whirl and then you have a pretty accurate description of living with a mlcer. The only way to avoid the nausea and dizziness is to get off the ride. Step off. Rip up your tickets. Let him ride alone.

Please do not let his behavior stop you from going out and having fun more often. My h is the same. He goes and has his life but doesn't want me to have mine.


Me 44 H 42
M 10 T 12 (at time of BD)
Ss 20 16
S11 (special needs)

BD 9/13 H "unhappy for years" moves to seperate bedroom
10/13 EA/PA confirmed but denied
S and I move out 3/15
juliegayle #2476165 08/05/14 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: juliegayle
Hey Pbetra

Throw in a tilt-a-whirl and then you have a pretty accurate description of living with a mlcer. The only way to avoid the nausea and dizziness is to get off the ride. Step off. Rip up your tickets. Let him ride alone.

Please do not let his behavior stop you from going out and having fun more often. My h is the same. He goes and has his life but doesn't want me to have mine.


Thx juliegayle,

How are you? Funny, I was thinking of going out SOON. I need to get away. The coldness, ignoring, disrespect ...I had come to cope with on some level. The language tends to hurt me at the core. It's demeaning, some of the expressions degrading. I realized why though - my father did the same. He was also dominant. It's funny, they, H & 'dad' are NOT 'obviously' alike, but on some levels they are 'subtlely so'! That aspect is part of my own ongoing journey

I intend to go out - I had a good time! Why stay here anyway? For what? A guarantee of enduring love? laugh Yeah right!
To feel my heart race at an uncomfortable rate, followed by tears due to disguisting profanities during these 'interludes'? Pretty much ...
Like I said, I was thinking about where next? Then, I came to the board & 'voila', there you were! grin

re: you - He goes and has his life but doesn't want me to have mine.
Strange. I was also reading here that some MLCers also seem to want LBS to suffer because they are so miserable. It's all related I suppose ... "(MLC) misery loves company"

Hope you are also doing well & getting through with your own goals, take care juliegayle. p


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2476180 08/05/14 10:56 PM
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Hi pbetra,
I know how hard it is living with the MLC. So sorry to hear about how he is acting. Wonka, an ex MLCer himself has said that the MLC doesn't want us to have any "fun" or to be at all happy. They figure if they aren't happy we shouldn't be either! How dare we have a life when we have caused them so much misery! My W has taken to entering my home to take what she feels is "hers"! I have told her not to do this ever again but I got a call from my D14 from my home today (she was supposed to be at her mom's) and found out she was there with her Step mother in tow (the OW that her dad put his businesses in to keep away from her mom, the woman who broke up her family and now has started calling "mom"!). She said her mom needed my D's birth certificate but took ALL the papers and the fireproof cabinet! She also took other things and I'm not done checking everywhere yet!

I called my L and he will have to file with the court to stop her. My W says that since her name is still on the deed that it's her house too and she can come and go as she pleases! Wrong! This is no longer HER home. She knows better than this and did this on purpose knowing I would be at work. I really don't get the sense of entitlement that the MLC has. If I were to go into her home she would have a fit (I'm not on the lease but even if I were I wouldn't do something that obviously wrong). Now I'm going to have my L get the safe and it's contents back from her and it will cost her a lot of money to have her L answer. I don't know who she is anymore. The lying has gotten worse, the manipulation of me and my D14 is getting worse and worse every day. She has lost all morals.

Don't expect any different from your H. He knows full well you can hear him behind the doors of "his room" (like a teenager has their room). He wants to hurt you and I for one really hate him for that. You have been brave, even supportive towards him and very understanding, how dare he want to hurt you for that!

Hang in the pbetra, you are seeing first hand that this is a long, long road and you are still just getting started! We are all routing for you!!

Matt165 #2476356 08/06/14 12:49 PM
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Matt,

Just read your reply. You see I've been spending more time at 'your place'! wink hehe Ahem, I mean THREAD! laugh It's THREAD everyone!!! Thanks for this - what 'a trip' we're all making!!

re: your reply -
I called my L and he will have to file with the court to stop her. My W says that since her name is still on the deed that it's her house too and she can come and go as she pleases! Wrong! This is no longer HER home. She knows better than this and did this on purpose knowing I would be at work.

I posted on your thread - also re: your 'self care'. I know how I feel when the emotion wells up inside! Detaching is great but it's the history w/MLCer that we're also up against as we continue w/detaching! tired

I really don't get the sense of entitlement that the MLC has. If I were to go into her home she would have a fit (I'm not on the lease but even if I were I wouldn't do something that obviously wrong). Now I'm going to have my L get the safe and it's contents back from her and it will cost her a lot of money to have her L answer. I don't know who she is anymore. The lying has gotten worse, the manipulation of me and my D14 is getting worse and worse every day. She has lost all morals.

This is the million $$ question - the entitlement! The right to do whatever, have whatever regardless of what happens or who gets hurt! I think you're right, H probably wanted me to hear. He's discreet re: certain calls! VERY quiet & inaudible. It's so tragic the extent to which we are hurt & for what? I don't think I was that awful!! But you know what they say - that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Well I say, ENOUGH LBS CASUALITIES!

I am re-writing ... : I will have good intentions to a point/to an extent, so that the road to hell will be paved for the (deserving) MLCer as... a consequence for 'bad behaviour' wink


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2482476 08/27/14 10:13 PM
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started Sun Aug 24 /14. thinking aloud / journaling, cont'd Mon 25th...

Feeling a little worn down. Getting more concerned over $$ sitch - I know that that is also affecting me ( $$ may not buy happiness but it buys peace of mind in an economically driven world!) have been thinking, reading a lot, doing so much - must be overload. I don't know up from down right now. Hurt my back .. my hernia (having to lift something heavy) Got stomach flu ... stressed that day attending to ill parent (has senile dementia - declining independence - needs help w/bath, meals, washroom etc). Trying to be supportive w/child & be patient w/mlcer. Guess just tired. Fatigue is never good when trying to 'sort' out thoughts ... fatigue distorts thinking at a time when clarity for overall health & self preservation is critical.

Trying to 'work through' sitch with brain fog, BIG TIME!
I chose to stand for child - have another month or so for my 'check in time' re sitch. That month feels sooooo
f - a- r - a - w - a - y right now!

Have been thinking about timing in all of this too.
MLC timing & LBS timing are NEVER 'in sync.' eek We're, LBSers are desperately trying for R. after the bomb. We pursue, they distance - we're 'opposite poles' here. In my sitch, the MLCer's momentum slowed after a while - but only a bit. Ironically, this was when I was increasing my GAL momentum! Unfortunately, I realized later on that if I was not careful, my actions could communicate indifference to the sensitive, prideful, 'guilt & shame-inflicted MLCer' that is my h. The MLC/LBS timing issues having started at different points on the MLC richter scale, continues that way (because EVERY 'blinking thing' is so far OFF the richter scale w/MLC!! confused ). When we DB, i guess we're trying to get the our timing & understanding aligned with each other in someway (?).

Subtle changes:
You see, h started talking to me a little more about a month ago (in between the raging 'episodes' mad of course!) He also began to 'include' me w/him "for a drive," if only to occasionally pick up fast food (we still haven't gone to the nicer places we used to) but the extended chats and asking for company on these short, fast food jaunts, are more than what had been occuring since the bomb/about 5 months ago. He even pays a lot of the time (before he shared NOTHING - took everything, he was just angry). There are no R talks during the drive, just small talk. Anyway, when we get home, h is back to the guest room, like a little mouse scurrying off to its hole in the baseboard. It's awkward for him - & me too sometimes b/c it's just so strange. Generally, I am just observer. Recently, there are times when he was more like his old self, whereas there was only the cold, reptilian, dismissive, aloof behaviour before. The fluctuations in mood, emotions and raging in flux, was accompanied by pleasantries ONLY to 'appease' as needs are met here. Being 'smart' ... the assumption that I am too foolish to recognize this strategy for what it was/is. However, recently he has been a bit more like old self amid his fierce, internal warring ...

1 of the Triggers/employment:
A small 'reprieve.' A job prospect came up within the last few weeks. It was the first time in long while that h 'informed' (!) me of this, told what happened (!), what it was about etc. Next day, went for related mmtg and called after to tell me about it. Usually, any convo between us is never personal ... or anything about his life. It is often weather, the headlines, something that happened on the street & always brief! Often just a greeting or a one liner in passing - or NOTHING at all! Or plain ole' avoidance. This was an actual discussion, to which I just listened. Anyway, these updates continued as things seemed to be looking up. I remember how pleasant he was & a little more like his old self! With the 1st convo - the very 1st, his eyes had a strange 'stare' which I found interesting when he spoke. There was sadness when he 'stared talked' to me. Hollowness .. I am still curious about what it was. I wondered what he was thinking with that stare and the sadness of his facial expression.

The next day I received a call from h again (!) re: possible job sitch & his concerns. Another convo. Then plans! Again, I saw parts of his old self. Well, it has been downhill recently. With no further news, & the announcement that he feels he "may never been employed again" ... he is outwardly pleasant & privately angry. I am back in the dog house re: h going out. It must be a painful restlessness in which h can't escape. I continued to observe.

This particular trigger led me to think about the past & I do recall that on two other occasions throughout those years, how moody he was re: job sitch - often handling sitch with anger. Didn't think much of it then as the sitch wasn't as extreme as now (MLC) but there are similarities. He just seemed really stressed at work at the time, but in retrospect, he wasn't handling it well.

$$/employment connection to MLC (as you already know).
I am thinking that in h's case, it may be heightened(?). $$ is worth w/his family. They ridicule others re: the subject in casual remarks. "Smart" "succcessful" "fool" are re occuring themes when talking about other people & their many pitfalls. I did not escape the label from h siblings either. I imagine if you come from a family that easily labels people this way, that failure (as measured by employment, job success, $) must impact on colossal scale.

H never wanted to depend on his family/parents. He felt STRONGLY about this! He did not have a good relationship with both parents, although of the 2, the mother was 'stellar'... MIL had issues with ALL of her children & their spouses. She is very controlling & dominant and single handedly destroyed many of her children's relationships.

seive technique
Since h opened up not too long I wondered if/how I should react/act. What was the most effective course of action at this time? I am trying to filter certain things out to separate the remaining grit from the meaningful information (also factoring timing if applicable) ... all in spite of my current brain fog. H is currently very sensitive to my reactions. He is no longer talking about job of course, just small superfical stuff. He continues with distancing himself a little, but remains outwardly pleasant (& privately raging). Again no rationalizing the irrational - I continue to observe.

Timed out, the subject of timing returns to me ...
I was not there for him recently. I don't know if he was reaching out on some level. Who really knows?!! At the time, it did not even occur to me. I was tired (& resentful - the day of hernia pain followed by the back pain. Both of which I 'hid' from him. I fell asleep in the afternoon after a day of chores but could not move when I woke up! With slow movement, coaxing and eventually turning onto my side, I eventually stood (though with bent knees and a curved back as I could not straighten out). I was lucky that after a good night's rest & with very mindful movement that much of the pain was gone the next morning. The point is, I really didn't want to think about seeing the MLC side of things - understanding the selfishness & self centeredness as desperation re: their life 'gone wrong'. All I could think about was how little he helped during that time & getting to the 'vulnerable population' in the house - the child & the elderly - the ones who I know love me. I was so fed up.
Anyway, he withdrew on sensing my own 'distancing'. Made me think of timing ... Timing IS everything!! Will see how it has affected any of the 'fragile progress' that developed within the last 2 months.

green > grass, money
I also heard him mention "grass greener on other side" hehe grin - to whom I don't know (I have to pass guest room to laundry area). I knew that that would have happened to him - he can be difficult & unflexible and that has cost him some friendships over the years. I understood him or thought I did! laugh I have been generally understanding, empathetic ... yes I do get frustrated but generally, I am known for that. He had to see it for himself when he went off in a fury, with that dismissive, hurtful aloofness b/c I was all wrong & he had endless possibilities re women, well here's real life buddy (esp. w/[b]NO dinero![u/]) ... I know I am taken for granted. Funny ... it does not matter as much as before.

My own issues/struggles.
I have noticed that I feel 'freer' when he's not here. This is part of my own issues - fear. I feel like I am frequently being careful. I don't like 'BIG, noisy, unsettling, obscene' conflict (within the family context). It unsettles me. I remember when we got married and he was generous with me - credit card, anything I felt I needed etc. I never really spent money. He was the bigger spender!!! Didn't demand big house or wanted to have 'this, that or the other ... I wanted our family to have enough of course, to be safe & secure. BUT what I DID TELL him was that I wanted peace of mind. Guess I never really had it(with my own dominant father). for years we had that until the employment sitch(s) began to 'nosedive'. Now I feel that I am using a piece of mind to remedy so much. I still 'comply' & 'settle' to not exasperate sitchs. There is avoidance re: family (the workplace, public sitch not so much - ??!!).

finD the finE linE
I do let things 'pass' but they are not important enough to me, in many cases. When you have NOT had a 'drama'/issue free life, you learn very quickly what matters & what does not. You have to - taking on everything is simply NOT possible. Specific batteles to fight are chosen over many others. I don't make mountains out of a lot. What are the 'big deals' to some are not to me - I think they don't know what real problems are! But I have a real problem - & it is this, below.
I am trying to identify & locate the fine line between my letting things 'pass' (b/c why work myself up over things that are not really that important) & my reactions to be complacent to 'keep the peace' (that indirectly hurt me anyway). An 'auto reaction' re my father TO AVOID all 'hell breaking loose in my world' & ... unfortunately bringing that 'habit' into the M.

gaining complexity (& fatigue!! bad timing)
When I rest & re evaluate MLCer sitch + child (mtg. set up w/ school staff next week ), my own issues are 'rocking the dynamic' as the interplay of the entire family gains complexity - well, 'revealed' complexity (God help me !!!) My only hope now is to improve health (energy, strength) as I really can't get anywhere without it. smile

Last edited by pbetra; 08/27/14 10:15 PM.

pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

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Well I've been doing .. thinking about a lot as I wrote before. Tired - trying my best to think clearly. I can't afford the social life all of the time as funds as dwindling & must be preserved for priorities - child, parent/health but I'm trying to keep GAL up as well b/c it feels SO GOOD! smile smile grin Been reading info. from all over the 'DB map' as you could imagine.

It is so for the 'relatively new' to all this -
we do the homework including reading the books ... & check the forums when we can between the 'crisis moments'.
For me, I looked for 'sitch specific' info. as I felt I was going crazy initially, crazy with the fallout from the mlc bomb. Emotional (!), fearful & NO one to talk with ...

I think I unknowingly pressured myself, trying to finish as much as possble since I have to make decisions soon re boundaries/cake eating & how to approach. Have been a doormat for about 6 months ... Right NOW - just wish he would go.

I know I have issues. I even wondered if I deserved all this, but I can't believe the hatred & contempt. And to be honest, the thought has been reoccuring (if I deserved all this). I can't even 'slip' with this guy ... it could be anything (!!) .. I asked, r you talking to me? And the reply!! My goodness, are we snappy snappy hateful mlcers!!!

I was reading Brightfuture
>> I think ... What did I do so terrible that after two years he is still angry at me.<< (http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2485628&page=6). It's so similar - the anger .. I was thinking the same as BF, WHAT did I do this man that was so horrible?

You see, I heard this on 'route' to laundry - I do lots as I have elderly as well & all must be clean re: 'vulnerable'. I'm into the prevention /cure analogy as I really cannot cope with more 'drama' these days frown . Colds, infections etc - more stuff to pile on my plate!

I heard how "^%#$$ stupid I was" b/c I did not get some info. fast enough. This is what takes place behind door (if I 'catch it') ... before the emergence of the actor - who shows up 'all pleasant' shortly after. Well, 'duh' if you helped MORE, maybe I could do, remember, follow up >> MORE! I CAN"T DO EVERYTHING!

Then his buddy called about 'plans, & it turns into a victim thing (of course). He's used up his $ so he couldn't go 'wherever'... (I really don't care). He goes on with more of the victim thing - "Wishes he could just get out of here." He goes on - it's a "tough sitch" (he's going on & on - oh! for pete's sake, cry me a river already) but has "NO WHERE TO STAY". I hear the disdain for me in spite of the 'front' he regularly presents ... he hates me, & like BF, I don't know what I did to him that was soo blinking terrible & cruel.

I could have thrown him out - I knew he would be homeless. My mother often said "do the right thing" - that way you won't be at war with your conscience down the road when it catchs up (!!) with you (I shouldn't have taken Mom's advice). I could not do this to him & of much GREATER IMPORTANCE, I could not to my child (after so many events have already 'broken' my child. i want 'rest' for my munchkin - time to heal before yet another life event ... so I tried this).

He shows one side under certain conditions and an entirely different side - I left as the malicious talk about me continued. All this - he does nothing and gets ALL his needs met. I love my child but as I walked away - I just thought this is too much. Somehow detaching isn't an effective tool for me right now (feels overrated). However, dragging his butt out and beating the ^%^$% ... well, I will not go there. I just feel rotten. He's being very 2-faced. Crazy ...

I noted that he was interested in my being a partner re: a venture he has, got his copyrights etc (no $$ upfront from me, wasn't getting it anyway wink ). Anyway, I found it interesting that he did not ask his relatives or 'new found' buddies. It's odd they know who they can trust or NOT - human nature has such a long, long way to go ...

I'm going to sleep. Am tired - a good nght's rest is what I need.
Have to sleep on it - Que boundaries? or Homeless dad? smirk Maybe I'll flip a coin ...
boundaries? will work better for kid
homeless dad - Oh gosh, BUT this one really works for MOI!! Yeah!


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

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Hi pbetra,
Sounds like you are having a tuff time, I'm sorry. I know how hard it is when the MLCer is still at home.. My W became very depressed about 7-8 years ago. She became so bad that she acted much like MLCers act, the difference being that she always felt badly and "made up" with me later. In other words, she recognized that she was acting out, blaming the wrong thing for her bad feelings. But there were times when it would be months where she "acted out". She wasn't working as she had been a stay at home mother for many years while the kids were home. At that time the kids were now in school and she could have gone back to work (as we had always planned) but she was too "sick" to do so.

During these times I felt ready to just quit (not always but a person can only take so much). But I knew she wouldn't be able to care for herself. That she didn't have a job or income and I couldn't leave her like that. It went against everything I always stood for, who I was as a person. I have NEVER regretted this, even now that my W has left me when I needed her income more than I ever have in the 21 years we were married (really the only time) and filed for D. She left me with no money (actually a negative balance in checking account), didn't care a bit about what she was doing to her D's or me (still doesn't). Still, I know that I did the right thing by not just leaving her on her own back then.

All I'm saying is be careful that you don't loose yourself and your values in reaction to what your H is doing. There may come a point where the right thing for you to do is just go and leave him to take care of himself. Make sure that you have truly reached that point before you do something that you may regret later. Believe me, I just had a bout with thinking that maybe I should be "playing hardball" with my W (had some people I work with tell me that is what I should be doing and for a moment I started to question myself) so I get where you are at right now. Just be sure that you don't do something you may look back on and wish you hadn't!

Hang in there. I hate to see you hurting so much. I understand how hard GALing is when low on funds...I'm in that spot right now myself, but try and find some things to do to get out and be with other people, away from H's craziness even for just a bit. It will really help.

juliegayle #2485861 09/07/14 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: juliegayle
Hey Pbetra

Throw in a tilt-a-whirl and then you have a pretty accurate description of living with a mlcer. The only way to avoid the nausea and dizziness is to get off the ride. Step off. Rip up your tickets. Let him ride alone.

Please do not let his behavior stop you from going out and having fun more often. My h is the same. He goes and has his life but doesn't want me to have mine.


Nods uh huh! I know that feeling, been living it for years.
It's ok for him to accidentally pack up and head away for the weekend but me to spur of the moment do something's not ok.


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Thx Matt,

Reading your reply w/ a 'cuppa joe.' I needed a smack of reality & msg w/'good sense'.

>>>when the MLCer is still at home .. My W became very depressed about 7-8 years ago.<<
I don't know how you did it! Really! The MLcer is so toxic, it's living with the toxins all the time (which is eventually going to make you sick).

I rationalize, read the advice etc - tell myself - Anger is like poison & expecting the other person to die -'stuff'/self talk like that, deep breaths, keep the PMA going ... but, oh my God, it's so exhausting when you don't have space from it. Like you, I have to manage tight financial sitch. I think that if my funds were in better shape that I would feel better, more secure & of course $$ gives freedom to occasionally escape from day to day activity. The financial strain is killing me these days Matt. frown Sometimes I get scared - that's another set of thoughts that I must fight or else they woudl 'cripple' me. It's nice out, so I may do my flowers - thye're always bright (!!) aromatic ... & they're good 'listeners' too! They never interrupt grin

>>felt badly and "made up" with me later. In other words, she recognized that she was acting out, blaming the wrong thing for her bad feelings.<<
I have witnessed this - sometimes it's real, other times, it's an act. He's good. Knows the honey/vinegar application & techniques. All a nest of lies & 'theatre' - this illness. In one of the homework threads - can't think now (but will try to locate for ref. (amyc, braveheart?!!), the discussion centered around if MLC is mental illness or not. The writer believed that it was not, b/c the MLCer functions etc. Well, I no expert ... mental illness is VERY broad since the psyche, the mind is so complex. I look at H & do feel that it IS mental illness that we are bombarded with. These are not the behaviours of mentally stable people. So what if they function in other ways? Even Ted Bundy had friends, had a job ... & "Ted" was 'real sick'!

>>During these times I felt ready to just quit (not always but a person can only take so much). But I knew she wouldn't be able to care for herself. That she didn't have a job or income and I couldn't leave her like that. It went against everything I always stood for, who I was as a person. I have NEVER regretted this, even now that my W has left me when I needed her income more than I ever have in the 21 years we were married (really the only time) and filed for D.<<
Am listening.

>>She left me with no money (actually a negative balance in checking account), didn't care a bit about what she was doing to her D's or me (still doesn't).<<
Such a 'sweetheart'!!! crazy

It's really complex this illness. re your post - They KNOW what they're doing is wrong sometimes, feel the guilt, may try to compensate ... I am fascinated, must admit. What a chaotic 'soup' of 'conscience' action, guilt ...behaviour, brain networks/connections & chemistry have gone haywire ... Now my own networks are running away w/me ... so I'll shut it !

>>Still, I know that I did the right thing by not just leaving her on her own back then.<<
I know you're right Matt, I do. Thx for reinforcing. So nice to hear the voice of reason, when your mind is filled with 'none'(!!), during toxic moments like these.

>>All I'm saying is be careful that you don't loose yourself and your values in reaction to what your H is doing. There may come a point where the right thing for you to do is just go and leave him to take care of himself.<<

This would would be great. It's hard to heal with the 'problem illness/toxin' all around, but time + detachment = insulation from MLCer is the formula around here! grin The other issue is that this is MY family property. It isn't much - in need of good reno but mortgage paid for etc. My father had set up account for me years ago (to get me started). When online banking became a reality, I put what I could (which was 'sporadic' & not much - but that's what we live on now. Health expenses paid from parents 'health related savings & can't be touched! While at my family property, I do it all - physical work (indoor & out), I pay all bills).

This is one of the 'best case scenarios' of cake eating at it's finest & doormating at it's best! eek I often feel stuck! I hope that he gets enough income to make it on his own SOON. I can't think. I want to 'breathe', clear my head, further my plans & move FORWARD. It's hard with the constant cake eating, diminishing funds, intrusion of MLC madness & debilitating fatigue that I experience some days. The other day was one of my lowest after gallant efforts to deal with this for the last few months.

My old home is now 'new' to me b/c so much has changed in comp. to when I was a little kid! It seemed good to move here b/c 1 - we had place to move to, 2 - parent (we were close to) had also suggested we come back to not be alone (life was getting harder alone as elderly person (bad things/security concerns accidents were happening w/senile dementia .. many in kitchen!). 3 - h had friend here advising him that work sitch was much better than where we were & encouraged him to start networking. There was no more opp. where we were), so we 'pooled' our resources as a family. We were all close anyway (hard to imagine that now!). All that was vaguely familiar to me had changed, including the few connections/friends my family had. It was like a foreign country. People moved on & out. It's strange but socially it worked out more for him - starting with 'friends of the friend'. I was alone here, with MLC in my future to contend with. I am alone with all *3 dependents ... financially & concerning caring/home keeping (*dependents: a parent, a child & my 'teen' MLCer).

>>Make sure that you have truly reached that point before you do something that you may regret later. Believe me, I just had a bout with thinking that maybe I should be "playing hardball" with my W (had some people I work with tell me that is what I should be doing and for a moment I started to question myself) so I get where you are at right now. Just be sure that you don't do something you may look back on and wish you hadn't!<<

Thx Matt, I know you are right. We really have to be mindful of what we do NOW b/c of 'consequences' (?) 10 yrs away ... 5, even a few months. The concscience (re: those who still have one) is a funny thing. Intentions, plans & actions find 'little cubbies' to reside in for a while, and when the host, 'us' is totally relaxed & going about life, the consequences for those actions emerge from their many hiding places. Who are we running from? We can't run from our conscience if we did something to cause the horrible demise of another. The MLCer can't run from themselves (part of their problem) they can run from us, but cannot escape themselves. With guilt we could experience the same I suppose. Again, my mother would support your advice b/c at the end of the day, I have to live WITH MYSELF!
Oh Ooooo no how much longer?!) laugh confused

>>Hang in there. I hate to see you hurting so much. I understand how hard GALing is when low on funds...I'm in that spot right now myself, but try and find some things to do to get out and be with other people, away from H's craziness even for just a bit. It will really help.<<

Am hanging Matt! Haaaaa n g ing laugh laugh laugh I know if there is anyone who can relate to the financial strain in 'this mix', it's you. I appreciate this really. When the sitch is a little stiffling, it's great to read objective feedback 'independent of self.' Thx again - will e-see you at your thread later today. I realize that a lot has happened but need to complete reading before any reply of course.

Have a good day to you as well Matt, pb


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

Ggrass #2485880 09/07/14 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ggrass
Originally Posted By: juliegayle
Hey Pbetra

Throw in a tilt-a-whirl and then you have a pretty accurate description of living with a mlcer. The only way to avoid the nausea and dizziness is to get off the ride. Step off. Rip up your tickets. Let him ride alone.

Please do not let his behavior stop you from going out and having fun more often. My h is the same. He goes and has his life but doesn't want me to have mine.


Nods uh huh! I know that feeling, been living it for years.
It's ok for him to accidentally pack up and head away for the weekend but me to spur of the moment do something's not ok.


-------------------

Been living it for years Ggrass? Ouch!!! eek How Ggrass, how?!! Sometimes, I feel I can't live another hour!! laugh laugh laugh
YOU will be my inspiration! (just replied to Matt - same w/his W, YEARS!!?).

>> ok for him to accidentally pack up and head away <<
Interesting little buggers, aren't they? found out 'buddy' here has been checking my GAL activity re: my phone! didn't do it when I had nowhere to go - now it's the questioning, all 'da rage' ... & phone checks. I'm on it though! 2 can play ... thx for 'connecting' - feels somewhat reassuring!

How have YOU been Ggrass?


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2485928 09/07/14 07:05 PM
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just making a note right now.

Organizing cupboard, getting school things ready & found h dressed to go out. he was eating (food I bought & cooked) which saves hm $$ sometimes re: having to pick stuff up. clearly rushing - there was a phone conversation about a gathering that he's going to - "mind if I stay at your place until logistics are worked out with ?" Didn't seem as if he knew this person too well.

He was very nice to me, always is ... asked me if I needed help (that's new, started about 3 days ago)Let me know he was leaving for a gathering and would help on return.

Recent observations:
-> all job prospects are in the crapper. including one he came closest to!
-> seems to have lost shoes (?) went in one set this past week, returned w/another! blush laugh
-> evidence of drinks in car (with straws). looked like 'woman's drink (?). generally speaking, men don't use these skinny, colorful straws
-> few months ago - the very **LAST time we were out together, I got food poisoning. I was brought home, undressed with all the love and attn. one could hope for. h helped me undress to my underwear to be comfortable, complete with cover - oh so loving! I was then unceremoniously left on the bed as he scurried quickly back out shocked (!) Sick, I could hear the car in 'full throttle', URGENTLY scooting back to the clubs!

Just recently, I found a receipt dated about 3 weeks after that incident. Turned out to be the same eating place ... for 2 customers, including wine! (it was a fluke ... I thought God really does exist (!), as the wind gusted through the windows, providing me with something more tangible. It was almost like a movie. smile (And where there are excessive lies, there are mistakes) Moral: Liars should always purchase really good paper weights ... for whenever hasty!
So EA/PA/OW is confirmed. h has "no money, & no place to stay" as echoed last night like a victim - so tough for him here with the tons of cake eating.

My real dilemma though is that my munchkin "wants the family" - I made a casual joke about moving on... to test the 'kiddy waters' (didn't think it funny as at!!) I don't think that it would be easy for child to handle another loss issue just 1 year apart at this time.

I am thinking so much as my deadline approaches ...
I am thinking of going 'darker' somehow (before I was dim, PMA & supportive, with a GAL, which may be on life support soon). Going dark is going to be hard in this space!
I will ask for monthly contribution toward expenses? What do you think? That's fair - he said he had "no money", so no wonder the secrecy to cover up what he does manage to obtain! But he gets it from somewhere! I know it isn't enough for him to 'make it' out there - But I would like some of the money - he's not the one facing the bills. Am I making any sense?

Children complicate matters so much ... pb

-------------------------------------------
** re: 'stare'
- I always wanted to ask! Witnessed it that ('sick') night! And it was weird! I often wondered about it. Does anyone know more about this? what does it mean? What are they thinking or why do they stare? What is going on?

Just a thought shocked - I used to feel bad about commenting on his stuff, as he would NOT like this, but it's all the truth - & mlcers don't feel bad about lying anyway.





Last edited by pbetra; 09/07/14 07:12 PM.

pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2485932 09/07/14 07:30 PM
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I can relate to the financial strain. I was out of work for 1 year, and dealing with the sitch at the same time. I had no money coming from any source during this time. In the past, when I was in between the projects, I could rely on H. We supported each other and each other’s backs. I didn’t have that anymore when I was out for work last year. I started working about 3 months ago, and it feels good. I gained all my confidence back, that I can take of myself and survive whatever comes my way.

It must be very hard to live with the MLCer who openly has this much disdain for you and blaming you for his misfortunes. I didn't see much of that from my H, since he was gone. Actually he just didn't come home from his work in another state. This is probably why I think that he was not that bad. But, I don’t know that for sure. He is such an actor and can hide his feelings pretty well.

Your H behaves like a teenager now. It’s like not wanting to live with his “mom”, but having no other means to exist, but also blaming “mom” that he is “stuck” with her. Poor boy… Not! I would ask him to contribute to the bills. If he says that he has no money, ask him what he thinks the solution should be then. I’m curious what answer he comes up with. Will he say that he expects you to cover for him?


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H:52
S28 (my S from previous marriage)
M:17 + 3
BD: 06/12
S: 06/12 - H works in another state
BrightFuture #2485983 09/07/14 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: BrightFuture
Your H behaves like a teenager now. It’s like not wanting to live with his “mom”, but having no other means to exist, but also blaming “mom” that he is “stuck” with her. Poor boy… Not! I would ask him to contribute to the bills. If he says that he has no money, ask him what he thinks the solution should be then. I’m curious what answer he comes up with. Will he say that he expects you to cover for him?


Thanks BF for the explanation ("mom") - very clear. The 'teen' is asleep now having come back from 'the event'. Came in, changed, drank something and passed out. A real teenager! Unbelievable. As for your suggestion - will approach him this way - & keep it 'light & casual' Thx u smile.

It's great that you're working now - it does make a huge difference.

It must be very hard to live with the MLCer who openly has this much disdain for you and blaming you for his misfortunes. Yup! And h comes from a family of 'blamers' ... even without MLC! crazy Always external blame & criticism. Self esteem issues at the core.

he just didn't come home from his work in another state. This is probably why I think that he was not that bad. But, I don’t know that for sure. He is such an actor and can hide his feelings pretty well.

Wow - that must have been rough, a 'no show'! I agree with you though - I do think that they are great at acting, hiding their feelings. I don't know if its b/c they just don't care, don't have much of a conscience re LBS. With h it's like a switch for the role he wishes to play.

You're working now BF. Get back to you GAL efforts. This MLC stuff is rough on us - we exist within a certain continuum of expectations & predictability with our spouse. It's the 'beat' of life. Our mindset is set up for it - then out of nowhere, the bomb interrupts the continuum, breaks the surface tension - all without warning! It's no wonder we feel like this.

Get back to GAL - It really does help! i hope that you can break th edepression to get the inertia going. Beginning is tough, I know ... i 'say'/type the words but we all know it's challenging.
Take care, pb


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2488467 09/15/14 12:45 AM
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Been trying to complete post but typically called away for some reason or the other!

BF - Q.>>I would ask him to contribute to the bills. If he says that he has no money, ask him what he thinks the solution should be then. I’m curious what answer he comes up with. Will he say that he expects you to cover for him?<<

Well, I asked BF! So predictable - "no money" (I believe it too). I could see that it's all 'blown'(!), h has not been clubbing too much recently. I suspected when I realized he's home nights. Can attend private events/parties but all night nightclubs etc are costly. His eyes were red (& sad). I assumed that this may have to do with overall 'condition,' withdrawal re: alcohol etc (?) 'out there,' lack of sleep' ... the eh 'lifestyle' Or maybe it just was being 'grilled' by me as perceived by him shocked

H can't think of a 'solution' right now btw (I was not entirely surprised). It was as if he was dumbfounded. A few hundred $ should pop up in a few months so I will revisit & try to claim before its all gone ... Anyway, after telling me that he has no $ "in the world right now"... related like a bit the 'sob story,' I said ok & ended it (remembered GGG & the amount of STFU juice to be consumed (!!) when in doubt or 'welling up. Also the need to 'stop' & /or just walk away. Sooo, I did. Did not wish to belabour the point or hear any more crap or excuses. I could feel 'my temp.' rising ... mad

With the past weekend behind me & after some reflection re: the last few months:, I 'modified' 2 things. 1 - sex, & 2 - altering of 'dimmer' to a little darker. h acting skills flat out confuse me (!!). He's good. I don't always trust what I see & hope I will not mess up (or haven't !!) any concealed 'baby steps' in this pile of 'mlc dung'.

Two modifications
1 - Intimacy eval:- I tried to keep this up since BD to stand 4 M./family (although frequency did become more and more erractic, also declining last few months). I read that HeartBlessing kept sex life alive during her marriage, so I tried.
I am trying to go *'cold turkey' re intimacy. Don't know if *good idea, but will see ... There is no R talk. He may eventually ask about 'sex sitch' ... or not. I will do him not 'us' for now wink ... I have to think of how I would handle (H is very sensitive re sex). I know he is NOT ready for R talk and do not wish to interrupt the natural mlc progression within tunnel.

2 - Dark, darker .. Had tried 'dark' at one point but maybe the time was not right (?). My sensitive h. read it as total indifference or (God knows what). HB had similar sitch where handling her h was oncerned. I had to 'correct the darkness' as I was trying to save m. Have only just started to go a little darker at this point of the MLC continuum, so I have no idea how h will respond med->long term this time around.

I got a response re 1, 2 but instinctively know that h definately cannot handle any serious discussion, in spite of his 'heighten attn.' toward me. There is constant testing to see if I will accept sex ... which I am turned off from - just feel used (so I do him, he pressures me to do us eek but I haven't done us since d -/decision day).

I need a break from all this before I dive into the next 6 months:
  • the 'veiled' contempt (there is ongoing change with h, but! ...), AND also the disrespect shown (masked with GREAT acting. Have occasionally fallen for this. I really can't decipher sometimes)
  • recent 'over interest' re sex (since 1 &2), is insulting my intelligence (h feels that by giving sexual attn. it reassures me that things are good, that I am fooled & flattered somehow - his tactic to keep relationship somewhat 'normal' until he finds 'better' ... u know, throw a 'crumb' occasionally to keep security here)
  • just feeling flat out used while in survival mode ... used 4 sex when not getting through 'out there', used financially (he must despise me even more at times b/c no one likes to 'need' the person they have issues with, it compunds prob.!)

Fiinancial sitch/GAL:
I haven't been able to go out very much recently. This made h get more 'comfortable' again (but I did do hobbies, stay busy in the meantime smile ). He goes some days to do 'stuff' & I am here most times as I am also 'part time carer', as you read by now. This must translate to very 'domestic' b/c I have no help - If i don't take out garbage, it stays there, yard etc. This is his 'visual' of me, 'domestic'. I try to fix hair etc. and many times, I keep things up but other times, I simply feel really very drained. tired This reality in addition to looking at the past 6 months made me question how to approach GAL re $. (Had to turn down invitation up 2 last night - too costly)

I spent a ton re: school term, & some house repairs before then (Summer) and ongoing health costs have to be budgeted for. I simply cannot go out very much right now. Have to recover some funds through saving where I can for a while.
Anyway, in an effort to go darker, I wondered what I could do. I remember just wanting to get away, or hoping h would go somewhere one day. I did NOT want to see him those few days - just felt that way. I needed to find somewhere to go.

Walk
The next day, when the part time helper arrived, I told h I had to go out. Just began to walk - I didn't know to where. This area is suburbia with quiet spots here & there. I looked for quiet but SAFE. It was there that I let my emotions free where he could not see. I cried. I thought, 'what have I come to?' frown ... out here with eyes peeled b/c life is funny, & in my efforts to sort things out, something bad could happen in this isolated place ... all b/c I needed to GAL re him, & get away for me. I sat under a really nice tree tho'. When I was done crying (I think from a little frustration), I took out some books. I left with my db books, so I read under this tree. I was lucky, the day was absolutely BEAUTIFUL & I soon felt better!

The quiet was eventually interrpted by a truck that had parked not too far and some construction workers. With the growing noise, I left and looked for another place to settle. Just walking ... 'Found' another tree and continued reading DBs (did the other 'db,' deep breathing in between). After a while, I was tired. Remembering to 'wear' my PMA, I went back home. H was there - I thought he was gone for most of day to his buddies or 'something' & was surprised that he was back. The helper said he returned shortly after I left! (Whew!)

H was 'happy' to see me (big surprise here, so predictable sick ). Curious. Chatty - asked me to come (!) to guest room after putting my things away (this was off limit zone, need for 'space'!). We just talked ... for quite a while! Very chatty. Next day, h approached re intimacy. I declined. Later that day, was awakened during night (!) re 'more urgent' intmacy, all frisky & 'ready to go' blush (whaa ?!!) ... 'did him' (no 'penny'). More (!) chatting next day ... all tender, ... touchie that day. I was nice but kept my distance.

No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path. Buddha
Every day, I'd find an errand to run (or 'walk'). Although it's tiring, I did it. Sometimes just a walk to feel what I need to - freely or pop into drug store .. anything. h has been warmer, touches here & there. I know that he has sensed that I am indifferent re sex. He is pursuer again (go figure), so the two things brought about this slight change in behaviour (ie my change re sex + leaving for MOST of day, practically every day - being busy). Been roaming like a nomad!! cool Will back on the road again /like Willie N. sang ... Leaving and not knowing where I would end up! Tired but remembering to return all PMA outwardly even if inwardly 'busted' ... I think that another poster 2Bhappy (?) don't think it was BF, said similar (about tired of having to go somewhere). H will not be able to take the 'neglect' /sex much longer. Would be interesting to see reaction. I imagine he will distance himself in anger ... or 'in depression'.

H overall demeanor in comp. to the many months seems a 'bit' improved. However, I have not outruled the possibility of 2-faced action. That is talking on phone negatively like a teen so that the 'saviour buddies' could come out to rescue him - inviting him to parties, bar b ques, 'meet ups'/events here, there & everywhere b/c he needs to get away from me - the enemy. Its all SOS! smirk On the other side, he's singing another tune here. I cannot recall if I mentioned that a 'caller' (one of the new 'gang' of friends who he spent time with last last weekend), offered some sort of apt. solution. The caller was obviously sympathic to h 'suffering in silence' here, having no options but to suffer. Interestingly, h turned it down! I guess he won't get a doormat there - maid service & a cook etc etc ETC!!!).

I understand the mlcer experiences mixed feelings as they really do not know what 2 do. He's been reaching out (!!?? what? ) ALL week. 'Reassuring touching', stroking/face etc. I even got a kiss (!) goodbye like old times recently. shocked Sadly, I do not trust anything b/c I know that even if (by some FLUKE) he feels something, that even h also doesn't know WHY, & it won't last. I suspect his reactions are self serving. I suppose it's selfishness & survival at the core for him right now - h has been hinting at needing toiletries, new casual flats b/c current ones are old ... car stuff (for a car that is used to take others out - up to recently when I was left behind just 'feelintg' the excitement & knowing I was not part of it - I would have liked to go! frown (am not afraid or too proud to admit that, as I go from one 'to do' list to the next). Thought bubble > "Buy your own car stuff!" (Im saving to get my own car next year or 2). The house is warm. I pay lights for household, utilities etc which benefits everyone. He should get his own toiletries etc. Also hinting at holiday party (we had a lovely one last year when we were a family). He invited the people he met, their connections etc, or networked with. I planned, decorated and cooked my favorite Holiday recipes! The holidays will be different .. but I hope to make it good for me & munchkin, "c".

Child, (c)
So here I am, still standing after 6 months, & now 're-standing,' embarking on the next cycle of doing all, paying all. Geriatric care, mother to acting out c. and discarded, used 'w' & enemy. My child/'c.' grew clearly scared when I casually responded to him (child had remarked that h seemed to be "having more fun but not w/us" a few months ago. It was an observation he made when he saw h talking & laughing with others in general). I said "maybe we could just let dad go w/his new friends for while .. to have fun, figure out what he likes?" vaguely, jokingly, light-heartedly ... something to that effect. For awhile??!! What was I thinking? c didn't like it at all! "Wants the family together" blah blah blah ... face getting red with emotion, eyes 'welling up' cry - I had to reassure immediately! c had been through this a year ago with the last loss event. There has been a lack of stabilty for many years. I saw the fear re: c with possibility of yet another life event - the possible loss of dad this time. Realizing it was too much as c has barely gotten over other events, I HAD TO remedy this one 'real quick'. Lots of hugs (!), kisses, TLC, PMA ... time together and talking.

I would like c. to 'stabalize' a little more - to be less sensitive, needy, insecure. Very self conscious child as well. Wish c could have t NOW. I want t. (!!) for myself of course, but as an adult I still have 'outlets' like these. I can vent here, I can read books on midlife, depression, etc I can help myself as an adult until I can do better. Sometimes, I don't feel that I am helping c enough. Lots of love & support - hope it's 'enough' ... so impressionable.

btw - apart from db books, got Conway, some on depression, Susan Anderson's, Journey From Abandonment To Healing on the the way etc! Also bought one of recommendations, Ackerman's Silent Sons (written 'by a man, for and about men,' for c.'s 21st birthday smile ) should I pass. I have signed it & will leave it for his 'future self' (c. is primary school age but it might be a good read going into 1/4 life ;0). I do not want 1/4 life or mlc to rob c. of peace in future if I can help in multiple, little ways NOW.

I will end here (finally after many attempts! grin ) c is talking to me & I can't really really really really (etc)... hear my self think! pb laugh
(can't re-check now, sorry re any typos)


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2488482 09/15/14 01:07 AM
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Quote:
I understand the mlcer experiences mixed feelings as they really do not know what 2 do. He's been reaching out (!!?? what? ) ALL week. 'Reassuring touching', stroking/face etc. I even got a kiss (!) goodbye like old times recently. shocked Sadly, I do not trust anything b/c I know that even if (by some FLUKE) he feels something, that even h also doesn't know WHY, & it won't last.
The saddest part of all of this is the reminder that when the storm passes, it's the LBS that makes the decisions. By saddest, I mean it is for the MLCr. They may or may not wake up in time to stop their destructive behavior. If and when they do, the LBS may not be anywhere around. Or at least be inaccessible.

If and when he wants to come back to the M, there will be touch and go's most likely. For the LBS, we don't allow for the connection because we have been hurt before. We shut down. Slowly, almost imperceptibly while the MLCr cycles like a madman trying to push/pull/heal.

I think it's fair to say that you don't trust him or anything about his actions. I don't blame you. I'm not suggesting you should, but when you look down the road do you see a possibility? If you saw that possibility, what would the first steps look like? How would you react if they occurred?

I know for me it would be next to impossible to be overly cautious or too careful. But I'm not sure that's the best reaction, ya know?

I like the idea of going for a walk. I find that exercise is incredibly helpful. And the weather lately has been incredibly nice over most of the country. Always nice to get out and breathe smile

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
AJM #2488711 09/15/14 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: AJM
Quote:
I understand the mlcer experiences mixed feelings as they really do not know what 2 do. He's been reaching out (!!?? what? ) ALL week. 'Reassuring touching', stroking/face etc. I even got a kiss (!) goodbye like old times recently. shocked Sadly, I do not trust anything b/c I know that even if (by some FLUKE) he feels something, that even h also doesn't know WHY, & it won't last.
The saddest part of all of this is the reminder that when the storm passes, it's the LBS that makes the decisions. By saddest, I mean it is for the MLCr. They may or may not wake up in time to stop their destructive behavior. If and when they do, the LBS may not be anywhere around. Or at least be inaccessible.

If and when he wants to come back to the M, there will be touch and go's most likely. For the LBS, we don't allow for the connection because we have been hurt before. We shut down. Slowly, almost imperceptibly while the MLCr cycles like a madman trying to push/pull/heal.


I understand AJ. Maybe I have shut down a little. I tried so hard esp. in beginning (we ALL did!) ... On some level, my timeline was my personal reprieve I guess. A time to take a breath! This shutting down (even if minimal - 'best case scen'.) can b risky b/c with mlcer there is no 'hard timline', & some are so sensitive! Will tread carefully, THINK MORE today when my mind is a little clearer. Just wrapping up some things & going to take a break before school ends. tired

I think it's fair to say that you don't trust him or anything about his actions. I don't blame you. I'm not suggesting you should, but when you look down the road do you see a possibility? If you saw that possibility, what would the first steps look like? How would you react if they occurred?

You're right, there is a possibility. That's a good question - And some of h first steps would be similar to reaching out like this. That's what I found confusing though - I didn't think that mlcers are authentic at the '6 month point' anyway (been reading - change can take from 1-2 yrs PLUS!) Just the day before I 'tweaked' my behaviour, h was his USUAL mlc 'teenage' self!

What h started doing a few months ago was to slip me the safe stuff vs total exclusion/isolation as he initially did.
Eg a 'tactical' move would be to include me > to ask me along to pick up some chinese food or 'something', or approach re intimacy or to chat to which I would respond, always being nice. With that out of the way, he had me fooled in his mind, checkmarked off his list (necessary since he can't support himself right now). smirk

So he came to me as usual to compensate for the 'fab weekend' cool of which everyone was part, but this time I was not available for anything. Period. So he approached again the next day - etc (already written in previous post). I guess h was thinking he had it 'covered' in that adolescent mind of his (!), but my deadline was reached & the pattern had changed. Now he KNOWS that something is amiss, & he begins to attempt to rectify problem. His survival depends on it.

Like I said, I'm just thinking that no mlcer can genuinely change in 6 months & certainly not in a day! The 'love' that I am receiving is NOT love. He does not want me or love me. If this were 1 year later +, maybe I would fall 4 it. Then again, with mlc chaos, there are no hard deadlines, & DB is about impacting MLC behaviour thro' LBS behaviour. So all in flux anyway & I have avoid 'narrow vision' due to my own perception of the 6 month h.

You have made me think about having to prepare for an effective reaction, should the opp. arise. Would hate to mess up an opportunity for partnership if this signals a baby step. I do not want to let my shutting down & immense level of distrust 'blow' it - otherwise all the effort & pain so far, would be in vain! eek

Thanks for giving me an 'outside perspective' - the value of feedback on the forum, when we are caught up in our own emotions.


I know for me it would be next to impossible to be overly cautious or too careful. But I'm not sure that's the best reaction, ya know?
There's a good side to the someone else's not so good. Wish I had some of that now!

I like the idea of going for a walk. I find that exercise is incredibly helpful. And the weather lately has been incredibly nice over most of the country. Always nice to get out and breathe smile
I've always LOVED walking, so this is great for me. It's my balm! Good for mind & body & surprisingly cost effective too!!! wink


AJM, thx again for your helpful reply. pb


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2488732 09/15/14 07:37 PM
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Hey pbetra!
Not a lot to add, just want to say to be careful and tread carefully. Your H is still all over the map. The phone conversation about maybe getting his own apt. comes to mind. Don't allow his "need" for you financially and his actions to secure that, give you hope he is "coming out of it". One of the things my W said to me was that one of the "reasons" she was leaving was because now that she was back working full time she felt she "could" do it. Never mind all the years that I stuck by her as the only one working. Even though I needed her income so badly for the first time ever, she only saw that SHE would be OK because the ONLY person she (or almost any MLCer) cares about is HER!

Her actions are having profound effects on her own D's. D19 is living hand to mouth because she refuses to live with her mother, D14 has been pulled from private school just when she was entering the final stretch and now feels money is a problem for the first time ever. Add that to her losing her sister being there for her, her parents getting a D, losing every friend she has ever known because her mom moved so far away, losing the only home she has ever known for half the time, having to live 7 days with mom and 7 days 30 miles away with me and never getting to totally unpack... but W feels SHE is able to leave because SHE can afford what SHE wants! That is the kind of selfishness MLCers have!

When you say you feel he may be being more interested in being intimate because he thinks this will make you feel better and "placate" you, I would listen to this feeling. I'm not telling you what to do or think. I just want you to have your eyes wide open. Keep GALing, pbetra! Take those walks. Get away from the craziness when you can!

Last edited by Matt165; 09/15/14 07:39 PM.
Matt165 #2489046 09/16/14 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: Matt165
Hey pbetra!
Not a lot to add, just want to say to be careful and tread carefully. Your H is still all over the map. The phone conversation about maybe getting his own apt. comes to mind. Don't allow his "need" for you financially and his actions to secure that, give you hope he is "coming out of it". One of the things my W said to me was that one of the "reasons" she was leaving was because now that she was back working full time she felt she "could" do it. Never mind all the years that I stuck by her as the only one working.

Hi Matt,
nice to see you over at this 'neck of the woods'! Your support is invaluable! This forum & posters like yourself are my only safe lifeline now. smile You understand, so it's always nice to 'see' you here, regardless of what you 'add' (all matter, ALL add up! So thx! ...)

Years, computer data
You mention all "the years you stuck by W"/LBS support, pre MLC. Sadly, I realize that 'all those years' don't matter. All those years are like data re: the lives we had. MLC is like the computer virus, wiping out so much of that data! Line by line of code & data, recording an account of our year by year lives with S. All wiped away by the MLC virus destroying R. If I think of it too much of it, the sadness returns so I don't - most times I manage. Other times? ... well that's the life of the LBS! frown My helper is here today so I may go on my walk after preparing meals (parent meal is low salt, 'low everything' of course. Growing body of child is opposite ... smile

apt, $
Re: apt - I know, agree with you. The fact is I can't afford much anyway - I can 'just about do' basic needs - food, shelter, a phone for emergencies. Since I was 'discarded' for the others, it is for h to turn to them, the ones he chose over me. Let THEM walk the talk. (already heard $ woes the last few hours).

Trust, the fine lines
I am struggling with trust so this won't be an effort for me Matt. H is good at acting (caught him one day & in an sec. the expression changed!) There are moments when sadness must affect them and when they may be genuine (I use that loosely - as much as can be expected given this strange 'condition' crazy For me, there is such fine line between figuring out mlcer as it relates to 'LBS approach', and then trying to know what to do next re sitch, with whatever, if 'figured' out.

My challenge is the balancing act. You see, with your wife, the duration of your M & what is currently taking place with your Ds, I think is clear that W cannot be trusted, at this time in her MLC experience. Her trigger/FIL is around. And he's a biggie (!!), we're talking massive, where psyche is concerned. A parent!!

For me, I am not trusting h sitch AT ALL. However, I still have to keep observant (somehow) to the 'little nuances' of other behaviours - these may indicate baby steps. My lack of trust is obliterating some areas of my vision. I am not 'seeing,' not getting the panorama view with ALL the 'content' confused ... This can impact of solutions as you can imagine. This is the difference between 'dad for c, or no dad.'

btw Just heard about his financial hardship again ... h has backed off re sexual advances today, as he realizes it's a 'no go'(also VERY sensitive to 'rejection'). However, h is in good mood & is very nice to me. Seems to be trying - 'seems (there's that 'illusion word'!) I was updated re another job (have to give him As for trying) Anyway, h is all pumped up after meeting w/friend of many years. If that works out, it is highly likely that there will be 1 of 2 scenarios.
  • I will be 'history' b/c like your w, he "could" do what he wishes. If this trigger/employment expresses itself in making him secure, then he could be 'off & running', armed with cash to LIVE LIFE!

    (h mentioned having to stay a little late in superm. b/c of the lines - that's "time that I will never have again." This is insight into thinking - subtle urgency re losing TIME! It's no wonder we're 'history' unless needed, useful or convenient - like BF re her h mail/likes convience)
  • The other scenario is that he may stay (& this one WILL shock me) ... although will stay on fence. Keeping fam AND looking for opp./OW as he has been doing. H hasn't 'self medicated' long enough to fill his void. Many urges still need to be expressed. The only reason why I (remotely) entertain this scenario is that $$/employment is his big trigger. He's gone through too much, for too long & has fam issues re: $$ (as I wrote in earlier post). Whenever I noted changes in mood, it was job related. I did not recognize at the times before (twice before). Each time was worse. This, the 3rd time where job stress arose was the final straw I guess. MLC resulted (from reoccuring job issues coupled with milestone birthday & illness/relative). However, I saw behavioural similarites which I did not recognize in the past. On reflection, the mood changes & some distance were similar, but the differences related to greater intensity with each occurance, until this.
Sex was very important connectionbut I have changed that - so in a sense, I may have damaged the potential for a better outcome, with such a 'harsh' boundary.

Quote:
When you say you feel he may be being more interested in being intimate because he thinks this will make you feel better and "placate" you, I would listen to this feeling.

h 'strats'
Ok, I will. H is also judging me based on his family values (even the women). 'love' really means sex. Maybe this is why he got so affected recently. I will eventually become placated with authenticity - sex is meaningless for me right now (feeling like robot with a on/off switch when summoned).

H has asked me to join him re job prospect out of city (I guess for the drive as we used to go on drives, or maybe for the company). I am thinking about it ... shocked

Take care Matt, thx again for input. smile pb


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2489426 09/17/14 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: pbetra

H has asked me to join him re job prospect out of city (I guess for the drive as we used to go on drives, or maybe for the company). I am thinking about it ... shocked

Well h decided 4 me. h was going thro' finances eek re growing biz. Has expenses re this, but blew on good life! Now he's in trouble! (Party before responsibility ya know?)

Was in foul mood after & that was the end of that 'idea'! I was hesitant anyway b/c it's so far - what would we say (!!) for duration? But was thinking about it, in case of baby step, in light of my recent 'harshness.' h probably felt same w/ bad mood (2 go alone).

This morning my foot is swollen, arch, my ankles hurt ... & my right arm is painful, knuckle in prticular, (may have sprained something 'turning' parent during change time). My back is also killing me! I think I need 2 thro' in some strength exercises. Pay closer attn 2 diet (not just eat '4 hunger',when I started eating 4 health) Anyway, all in all it would have been too much 'work' to talk & PMA w/ h. Way too much - I will enjoy the peace, rest & do some db reading grin (my helper is late has her own concerns & may not come out, but 1 thing at a time. Enjoying my coffee 1st & will attend to parent very, very s l o w l y & mindfully with music in background).

I may not comfortable re: body, but am 'with mind'! I can relax with the space ... it's weird, I seem to need that now cool

I will see how h is since this is employment related ... what happens when the trigger (with possibility) shows up again.
h was actually quite pleasant, although a litte distant on leaving (had been harping - had "no $ to get there", interesting - but he made it).


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2491340 09/26/14 02:49 AM
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just perusing the forum .. stopping off here, there ... when this thought occured to me.
The 'quest' for intimacy continues. What should I tell h in a case like this? Back off? (very tempting) laugh

It's typical I suppose - the mlcer wants sitch to be a certain way without confronting the issues. H suggests that he doesn't 'get it', how I changed (really?! after all that's been going on?)

I am wondering how to approach this without engaging in the 'suicidal' 'R' talk - or should I just leave it?


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2491466 09/26/14 02:09 PM
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  • Should I answer h when asked about my widening the gap between us after standing for M the way I have?(re recent actions)
  • 'IYO' does this damage any minute progress up to that point?

Just putting out 'feelers' ... thx, pb


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2517611 12/16/14 01:17 AM
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Hi there,

it's been awhile I know. I had hoped to drop in, wish everyone a happy thanksgiving but it didn't work out (at least I made it before Christmas right? smile

Been a little tired & sick (?!) on/off - energy has plummeted!

Things appear to be getting a bit better since my last posts, but I am hesitant to believe this. Maybe it is 'self-preservation.' However, I wish to observe h when his job prospects do materialize. At this time, it seems so.

As recent as early September, there was disconnection. We had a R talk (not intended) & it seemed that he wanted to talk, but may not have known how to initiate. We both vent - & then he left! Said he had to leave to do a few things. I heard the familiar reversing sound of vehicle & thought it was over. Hours later, he returned & came to my room to inform me of his return - politely I might add shocked . This was the first time since March that we spoke about anything 'R.'

After that he tried to reach out - chatting, light touches and I reciprocated. Things seem better, but then again, it's 'famine' for him on many levels. The test is 'feast' - when $$ comes & there is independence, will h continue with his 'initial quest' since the opportunity would be there (re financial)? Only then would I know if any of this is real. There is still so much rage - 'road, other people etc' ... so I continue to wait. Another few months would make it year (!) since this experience began.

I hope that you all have a meaningful Holiday Season - until next time, take care, p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2517687 12/16/14 10:37 AM
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Sitting looking at the tree. Thinking about some other forum members - & like myself, how different this year would be for them.

Just sitting ... thinking.
Last Christmas was magical (!), it really was. We did so much together. I think that this is why the 'March BD' was a shocker - not long after the 2013 holiday season coming to think of it.

Right now, h is expecting $$ ($ = sig. mlc trigger) and it will be late in coming I think. He is pleasant but a little distance has returned. I ask God, who ever 'he, she or it' actually is, to get me off this pendulum next year! grin LOL Am fine on some level with h's mlc quirks though. He even acknwoledged my birthday earlier on ... & I didn't acknowledge his before then! h was VERY busy 'living HIS life' at the time 'sans moi.'

Got a major disappointment recently re: another relative (with whom I felt close to frown ) & I suppose everything is making me look at my own life so far.

2015 has to be better for me. 2014, the ordeal that is was is practically history now. I do feel drained with this level of upheaval & so little financial room to maneuver. Have to think of solutions re finances for 2015 - somehow. If that is in place, I will have peace of mind re: bills & resources to enjoy a few things to get my mind off the less pleasant.

These are the things we should learn in school!! Not simply academics re: how to make a living, but 'how to make your life' in your YOUTH when you have the energy!! grin Well, let me take my 'tired, busted up' self & >>>

HO HO HO ... HOpe! p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2523230 01/04/15 04:31 PM
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Just came by re: more thoughts as it is 2015!

2015:
BUT (!!) before I go on, I wish you all a very happy / or 'happier' New Year! laugh One that will give you strength and courage - & ultimately peace of mind as you create (or continue to create) the life you wish for your family &/or for yourself.

Sitting alone:
I found myself sitting alone quietly this AM with a cuppa joe.
Two thoughts occured to me.

  • Cadet - "trust the process" and
  • how it's all about mental stamina as one continues to "trust the process"

I don't have anything overly 'dramatic' to report. This may be because I go on with what I can & leave h the space to sort himself out. However, like many of you, I have had to reflect on events/2014 with the New Year.

What will life bring me/the family?
Last year at this time, I was happy (!) as we were planning a few things - vacation times etc. Family stuff for 2014.
Just under 3 months away, little did I know that MLC would strike and everything would be changed - forever eek .
(Like h, I too was also thrown into my very own emotional state of chaos, even though it seemed more 'exclusive' to the MLCer..)

The LARGER question at this moment is how much more(!!), can I create my own life??! Control those areas I can control by re-evaluating and subsequently identifying new areas for attention & improvement.

I can't control another's MLC experience but there are things I can control for me. This must NOT be taken for granted or lost within 'draining fatigue' or occasional despair ... This is a very important 'mental stickie' for 2015.


So far - recent developments.

An opportunity presented itself re h. It was a temp. one that could have other leads and was a welcome drop of water, in what seemed to be an ongoing drought for h.

With this opportunity, my birthday last year was acknowledged (!) shocked although I did not do so re: his (as per db advice).
I was given $$ to help with bills & talk developed re gifts for holidays including what I might want! shocked shocked H also spoke with me more (again) & clearly wished to spend more time with me just hanging at home (vs the tendency > isolation).
Also spoke of planning a little family time away!! shocked shocked shocked ...

Until (!), the lead fell through ... frown
I knew something was wrong when the raging returned (it never really left - traffic, long lines etc would bring out the lack of patience & intense anger, but here at home it HAD 'subsided!' )
The TRIGGER was set off - again.
$$/financial security = progress (more distance covered within the tunnel).
Lack of $$ security = MLC behaviours.
My company is no longer sought as before. Some isolation has returned. I continue to hear the angry words ... frown

On a positive note, h is generally pleasant to me, in other words h tries to keep the anger away from me & tries to be nice. Actually he has been most times! 'Strange at times but nice'
This is when the thoughts 'decended' on me -
  • Cadet - "TRUST THE PROCESS" &
  • mental stamina needed to continue to trust this complex process.
So I continue reflecting on the two, as I continue to try to source more income myself as living expenses really ARE driving me nuts!! Geez! crazy

I still feel soooooo tired sometimes. Tend to get sick a little often, but overall, it's 'ok'. Things are not too bad or 'serious' in the 'grand scheme of things,' so I am appreciative.

Bye for now:
Well, will wrap up here.
Again, I hope that this year will be good for EVERYONE here (who are often inspiring in addition to being supportive of course smirk ) ... my sincerest good wishes to you, as you go on with YOUR lives as best as you could, regardless of each of YOUR circumstances at this time.

I will be catching up a 'bit' later today after so long!!!. It's close to lunch time & the family will hungry soon.
Take care, p. smile


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2523262 01/04/15 05:57 PM
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Quote:
The LARGER question at this moment is how much more(!!), can I create my own life??! Control those areas I can control by re-evaluating and subsequently identifying new areas for attention & improvement.


This right here is the KEY!

kml #2523321 01/04/15 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: kml
Quote:
The LARGER question at this moment is how much more(!!), can I create my own life??! Control those areas I can control by re-evaluating and subsequently identifying new areas for attention & improvement.


This right here is the KEY!



Amen!


M- 48
XW- mentally 17
KIDS- 3- S19, D23, D28
Married- 17 years
Divorce final- 10/16/09

pbetra #2523469 01/05/15 06:38 AM
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So great to hear from you pbetra! I was worried about you as we haven't heard from you in so long!
Happy New Year! It sounds as if you are doing OK. Like you I am still not in anywhere close to a decent financial state but am working hard towards getting there. As for me, W has been pushing hard to finalize the D and the last meeting didn't go well for me. But I'm not hear to talk about me. I just wanted to let you know that I'm glad you're back and I'm rooting for you!

Matt165 #2525285 01/09/15 08:48 PM
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Thanks kml & sofaraway for dropping by my 'little neck of the woods' here at the db forum smile .
Appreciate the acknowledgement!!! Again, my best wishes re: 2015!
p.

btw Had hoped to read more of your sitch but got a bit *delayed - (as *I have just begun to experience some of the old cycle with h's lost lead, aka 'here we go again' laugh confused )


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

Matt165 #2525294 01/09/15 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: Matt165
So great to hear from you pbetra! I was worried about you as we haven't heard from you in so long!
Happy New Year! Thanks Matt, smile it was crazy for a bit and the growing fatigue and increasing occurance of illness (although not too serious) compounded the sitch I guess. But all in all "ok" - grin


Originally Posted By: Matt165
Like you I am still not in anywhere close to a decent financial state but am working hard towards getting there.
Sorry to hear Matt, I know how hard you were at it when I frequented the forum! $$ is an unwanted 'distractor' when you're TRYING to sort things out!


Originally Posted By: Matt165
As for me, W has been pushing hard to finalize the D and the last meeting didn't go well for me.
Going to see! Know your lawyer was handling for you & assumed that the 'composite parts' of this process were moving along (as they shouLd) on the 'divorce conveyor belt' - guess not !? frown ...

Thanks again Matt for popping by! Take care, p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2531140 01/26/15 05:49 PM
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About mid-Jan (how things changed since Christmas).

Been thinking of stages since $$/employment lead failed to come through for h.
I am not being treated with the hostility I met with before - that has changed but some deceit is still there although reduced.

Stages
2014 - when this began almost a year ago (bd early march 2014) the 'call 2 the road' was intense as expected. Clubs & trendy bars with 'said buddy & co.' were frequent. Behaviour was that of a homonal, immature teenage boy.

Transitioning throughout 2014:
- a few months later & b 4 the end of the year - the tendency was to set off to quieter places with small groups to drink & drink & drink & smoke ... (these are just from bits of information pieced together) The glitzy environmets were no more & replaced with more 'hippie inspired', 'naturalist' ones confused .

2015 - a reversion (!) to some 'familiar' habits:
Trigger ->
  • income issues (as always), &
    meeting up with the gang from that wonderful 2014 event that they all enjoyed, the event that made h. feel that he had no real life preceding the BD.
There is some renewed 'vigor' after meeting the gang again and also from the excitement & mood associated with it. He also met with a long lost buddy!!.

2014, 2015:
From the the nightclubs & trendy, sleek bars, to naturalist hippie experiences of 2014, 2015 is now about 'entertainment' places that are a bit more seedy! shocked eek He doesn't 'act' like a teenager though, he seems reserved - on the surface.

H recently went out for the 1st time in a long time one weekend (his finances were also low & a contributing factor re: social life). H returned an hour b4 sunrise! (he had left to go out after I went to bed/fell asleep. I heard him return but pretended I did not). I waited until he changed into PJs etc & fell asleep, before I got up myself for a cuppa coffee.

Nite out
Later that morning, H came to find me not long after he woke up. Said good morning (as 'usual' etc), stretching ... There was superficial, shallow talk ... looking out window. Then after about 5+ minutes of this crap (he didn't look at me at first) ... He even looked away smiling b 4 looking at me to let me know that he went out. I could tell that there was some uneasiness as he did not mention this right away, hence all the supercial talk. "Unplanned, last minute" - "just went to hang out". He obviously felt compelled to say something (!!?) maybe b/c of associations with last year ? Dunno ... I never asked. Since i was asleep when he left, I pretended that I was asleep when he returned (made it easy for him).

I don't know if the smile was 'quiet cussing' at me, mockery, self consciousness, guilt ? ... or simply recalling something 'spicy' (!!) re that night ... blush

Continuing with comparisons/behaviour:
2015 Sooooo the deceit is still there (of course). Maybe the same 'level?' Maybe not -this is all relative to 'conditions.' For some reason, he felt compelled to say 'something' (??). h 'told me' without 'really telling me'though - it was shallow. ;0). Made it seem like a 'normal' boys night out but initial hesitation communicated what exactly?? In any event, my capacity for trust is severely worn down, so I don't believe anything. I just listen.

Comp. 2014 - almost a year ago he felt that he did not 'owe' me a (courtesy) explanation of any kind (as respect to spouse). If he did - I felt the MOCKERY, the lying - the 'stranger' in him, the disdain for me, all while he said whatever he wanted to. This went on without caring for my feelings, when he knew outright that I may have realized what he was doing, how hurtful it was, but he DID IT ANYWAY! So that's been different the last few months ... & now,
2015 He felt (?) he had to say something re his night out??? REALLY DON'T GET IT. Re: his new entertainment places of choice, he would not want me to know where he frequents anyway. He may even think he's doing 'well' (??) by letting me know where he's been ('owed me' explanation??) confused Puzzling! ... I don't have the energy to figure out, & not that interested ...

2014 - had substitute places to 'compensate' for not taking me out to usual places (as he had stopped taking me to the nicer restaurants, trendy bars etc - I suspect b/c he was 'reserving' those, seeking new OW).
This was typically in the beginning of the MLC roller coaster ride & some sporadic times thrown in between ...(b 4 finally shamelessly & blatently going out on his own as though single). However, h kept one foot in door by giving me the impression that he was still in R. He did this through what i thought of as compensation/substitution tactics

He exposed me only to 'sedate places'/experiences - eg 'lake', no nightlife or glamour (unlike the whole 'gamut' during our M) ... & also to similar people if that unavoidably came up.

The 'compensate/subsitute tactics' I viewed as his being a smart -'donkey' smirk & his REALLY BELIEVING (!!) that I fell for it (!) or was fooled by it (simply b/c he was giving me 'attention'). After a while , even that stopped as my 6 month timeline for re evaluation had arrived, & he sensed a change in me.

Pattern:
Interestingly - h wants to take me to 'sedate' outing next week! eek This came up not long after the 'night out' conversation we had (which he brought up again next day). He 'volunteered' a little more 'information' - just like that I might add. This 'compensation/substitution action' typical in 2014, has re emerged for the 1st time in months! However, it is a similar set of conditions that 'ignited' it anyway (event w/party people & buddies & employment issues). It's too early to tell of course but it just shy of the anniversary of the BD, and prompted by the same things. A bit coincidental. Will it be a watered down version repeating itself? Many (re buddies) will be here for a while so I will see what happens!

Like 2014, there was loss of patience since the day of 'no lead/$$.' Wow did I get it! 3 times in 1 morning - insults, being snapped at, impatience - fault finding & 'put downs' ... (thought 2 things: 1 - "been there, done that, bought the t shirt," & 2 - "your problem not mine." I was so @!#$#$%%* fed up). As mentioned before though, there is less 'overall' hostility toward me - SO FAR anyway (we have a few more weeks to go b 4 the end of the year & anything's possible LOL laugh ) I recently met someone who knew h quite well in his youth. Said h. was "very arrogant, felt he was better than". This may be part of the reason he does not cope well when he is not the success he expects to be.

At the moment, I am thinking of c. observing & tweaking sitch as I go. My biggest problem is financial - it is NO LONGER "HIM!" smirk I would love to get into expressive arts & am currently producing interesting pieces!!! cool

Take care all, p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2541974 02/24/15 11:47 PM
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Almost a year:
After the big party last year about this time 2014, I was 'BD-ed' March 6th - it's almost a year ...

Well, the (now annual) 'big reunion of sorts' took place. This year there were some new 'fun' players. The 'big reunion' could not be compromised or missed! h even got an additional buddy! They stayed out until sunrise bar hopping, looking for women, hitting the credit card etc, ... all the old behaviours.
It WAS (!) deja vu all over again !! Couldn't believe it - so 'eerie' really crazy

Anyway to update:
We had a conversation. To say that I was put down was an understatement. It was 'rough,' but I knew why smirk - the 'big reunion' was coming up & h needed 'permission' to do what he really wanted (btw - up to that point we we intimate on/off). Anyway h has been repeatedly mentioning a certain type/race of woman as being the 'ideal' for men. I would use 'Coy but Cougar Race' as a bogus race for purposes of illustration here. The point is, he had been talkng about these women as being great for men over & over & over again etc. My shortcomings as a wife were evident on ALL LAYERS. I didn't stand a chance! How they "would do anything" submit I guess (among any mother wonderful attributes - they seemed perfect) ... Well I am NOT that race, can't change my race ( which is the race that he seems to be currently taken up with). So it went on my shortcomings & all the mistakes I made. I felt insulted, disrespected. That conversation did it for me ... & him!

I did not db as well as I should have in that I showed my feelings (discontent) & verbally responded although NOT a lot. h withdrew, got 'cold stone angry' & eventually walked away. Although I held my ground (db/180), my immediate thoughts were about how I messed up and I was afraid 4 the rest of the day. I thought I had 'undone' so much progress ... frown

Later that day, in spite of my feeling self conscious re messing up w/db, I felt angry w/h. Just happened. h heard me in kitchen as I do have a 'patient' to look after & he came out for something. He did not say anything or look at me - again 'stone cold anger'. This happens when he 'can't even stand to look' at me! I simply decided to stay away as much as possible. Frankly, I didn't want to see him either. For that day & the next, he had nothing to say to me. mad

I went 2 a meditation class that I sometimes attend. I msg h that I was out, & a little later re child, c. This is usually the courtesy we extend/ the protocol - & his preferred way of communicating when there is tension or he needs space. This time he did not reply. It didn't matter, I had done what we do as usual. That night, I got invited out & went. Again, I msg 'out' - this time a response! (i guess it was curiousity, as I do not go out at night as much, often day). The next day I went out. A friend knew about the tension & extended invitation to me. When I got home, he was in front where he could see me returning (& with whom if app. etc). He was chatting w/someone. He was clearly curious & started to small talk - including me in the conversation with his friend.

The small talk continued over the next 2 days as things returned to 'normal' (as normal as can be expected). It's funny but I remained angry, 'aloof' even though pleasant - this I could not control. The pleasantries continued between us, with h being nice as he saw a change in me that he never experienced. It was the I 'don't give a #$%^@#@$# anymore change. This is a RADICAL for me - risking this way was to risk M. However, the low blows were a bit much and all the people who are so 'great' are not the ones taking care of him or supporting him (Let THEM put $$ where their mouth is, walk the talk'!!) Here I am the jack donkey.
What struck me though, was the overall shortened period of time re: speaking to me again, & the reduced hostility relative to b 4.

MLC crumb sharing habits:
One week before that episode, h had invited me to tag along somewhere prior to the 'big renunion.' We did the expected 'placid, non glamourous' thing. He reserves other trendy outings for the those 'more deserving' of nice places. I knew what was happening. This was a 'set up' so that he could do what he really wanted 2 do. They, MLCers all think the LBS stupid. I went along (up to that point on one level), just observing actions as I was not sure what to do next. I did not want to spoil his event 4 him but knew in my heart that I cud not go through another year like this. There wud b changes re infidelity (!) as this was re-entering 'the relationship landscape' (unlike the 2014 holiday season).

Cat out of Bag:
Anyway, a few conversations later, something else came up! He muttered something (?) confused . I was doing some work that day and reflected about the strange talk we had. Asked him if he was thinking of stds? (b/c of the nature of the conversation). My reasons were two-fold - I needed to know if he was sick & also to bring up infidelity since I did not want another year of infidelity & occasional '@home intimacy combined. During the past year of observation, applying various methods ... & trying to see what works re mlc, I put up with it, 'tweaking' as I went, but my limit fo rthis was a year. h was clearly taken aback & confused that infidelity came up. Not long after, he came out - asked if I (!!) had been unfaithful? I said an emphatic "no!!" I could see the confusion lingering with him.

He obviously gave it more thought overnight b/c bright & early the next morning he confronted me about it yet A G A I N! Infidelity - why would I have asked about stds if i have no concerns for myself?. If the stds were NOT about me !!! Then ??? grin I think I threw him a curve as he felt his crumb throwing was doing the trick fro all of last year.

'Da script':
Then, along the script Wow! ... he "NEVER cheated on me". It was a 'seamless' script. Very impressive. No flinching, great eye contact VERY, VERY convincing. Fact is that I KNOW that he has been trying to meet women - dont know the names, faces etc (details) but I have spoken with my friend, we have seen, overheard & KNOW FOR SURE.
After he was done trying to convince me that it's just guys' hangong out having a good time and denying everything, he turned it on me!! Gave some pathetic examples of suspicous moments when he thought that it was I (!!) who had been unfaithful during our marriage (2 sep times!). GENIUS! laugh

A few hours later, he tried to b 'nice' ( that day and the one after). Played music (what we liked as couple ) showed me old family photos when child was a baby, helped tidy when I was not around (which he does not typically do) and came to small talk quite often. smile Stuff he hadn't done for a while as 'mlc-ing' had taken over. Lots of damage control(he doesn't have many other options, so it is hard to gage this). The next day he took off. I suspect to express his rage, or other feelings and emotions privately. He left early and returned late (At one time, I did not know if he would return).


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2542071 02/25/15 10:49 AM
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'addendum'

Came to my room just over an hour when he got back from day out (previous post). Asked if I would hang out a bit b4 bed. There was more talking! It was 'spouse appreciation time.' smirk shocked

In spite of all the flux & time needed 4 all to unfold, I continue on MY path. of course. I am not doing the planning as well as hoped due to some 'brain fog' but I know that as I continue, the fog must clear at some point! smile


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

Matt165 #2542352 02/25/15 09:17 PM
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I guess I am too cautious,/ suspicious or afraid too setting myself up frown , expecting the worse since it is only a year into this ...

If this were occuring year 3, I would 'buy into it' a bit more. Anyway, h is trying 2 b nice - so I must reciprociate & I have been nice, been 'gentle. This can't possibly b easy 4 him. I know it could be a different story next week, month etc ... but 4 now, he is trying, & so must I (party's over, everyone's flying out).

h & I have awkward moments of course but generally its been ok.

(Still keeping up with my goals to insulate myself from the flux of this condition.' As much as I wish all could go well, life is not always that simple & must move forward).


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2545201 03/06/15 03:22 PM
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Hi all in db land

Recently had feeling of numbness eek . Was sad.
Thankfully I am beginning to re-gain 'feeling' again ...
I don't know why the numbness or whatever 'it ' was came up.

h apologized (!!) "4 upsetting me." I did hold my ground after that fateful discussion (something that rarely happens as these things were never 'worth the energy'). I suspect that my reaction would have enraged him more b 4, but it didn't this time. Anyway, he did apologize. He's been trying so hard 2 b nice smile & although I have been pleasant, I can't help but feel & outwardly express > 'lukewarm.'

Up to yesterday he asked me 2 go with him on a drive and I did b/c I didn't want to give him the impression that I was still upset or punishing him or whatever (??) since he's been trying to b nice. We didn't speak much for majority of it - just enjoyed the ride. Felt sad I think. Maybe subconsciously I felt that it was over b/c on some level it seems so pointless (he's so volitile that he was threatened - sometimes one meets one's match in life? Yup you're 'bad', but there's always 'badder'). Don't know why I am feeling this way but am trying to figure out.

I can't mind read of course .. maybe he is sorry on some level esp. b/c he's never seen me like this but I feel it's all superficial. They all pursue 'when the LBS distances' ... & boy did I distance!! I think
I snapped 'somewhere' in my own mindspace - I changed. I felt it! confused

Like him, I was angry after that discussion but I was not concerned, fearful or budging from my angry 'position'. I just couldn't believe the level of crap and the tactics taken. I might have doormat medium size before but not that large - geez!! Maybe this is why I still can't change re lukewarm feeling to him in spite of his efforts. As soon as the comfort returns - so does the crapola. I continue 2 b pleasant but something is holding me back from so much - responding, creating!!

Oh, have to end here 4 now, hope 2 b back a little later (not done yet).
thx as always, p


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
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pbetra #2545684 03/08/15 02:22 PM
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Continued:( re: Hi all in db land,above)

Ok, so I did what I had to earlier that day (previous post). Cleaned, organized ... stuff I do when excess energy needs to be expended & I am unable to go out.

I don’t know what happened to me recently - the numbness? drive? resignation? - thankfully, all are finally declining (good thing smile ), although incrementally. I guess the abundance of 'pre- big reunion' comments & remarks, the same @#$$%^*&%! conversation over & over (!) again, each time with more intensity and narrower intervals between them, was too much!
I could 'take' negative comments once, thrice, even a little more (this IS mlc after all!), but I was BOMBARDED. It was intentional (NOT an emotional outburst) - berating, belittling, communicating that I was less than & so inadequate ... but I knew why smirk . The boys were gearing up for the 'event' and the women who would be there! The thing is, these recent conversations always began in a pleasant way - so I ‘returned’ the civility. Unfortunately, it eventually morphed to the same end or messages.

Absolute vs method madness:
I know this is ‘mlc crazy’ but I have also noted that there is often 'method in madness’ re crazy people of the world. Think about psychos.Very few psychos brutally kill their victims then call the police with a polite 'narrative' of what happened, as if reading a story at school including information about where to find the butchered bodies (this wud b true 'absolute madness').

Many are smart enough to commit crimes in isolated areas, hide the bodies and carefully remove any evidence. It's all 'secret' (which is why there are so many unsolved crimes and so many resources used to gather evidence to solve those crimes). They KNOW (!!) 'wrong' on some level - there is 'method' in the madness.

Well h's 'method' 2 berate was about giving himself a permission slip 2 do what he really wanted (explore opps. without limitations (!!) shocked at the ‘big reunion’). These mlc-ers are 'smart crazy'... smart to suit themselves, crazy to make it work!

I wish my experiences were more 'normal' prior to mlc so that my emotional resources wouldn't feel too depleted ( I was already ‘wilting’ when mlc occurred frown ). The move was supposed to be a new beginning for the family away from the misfortune before - a time to heal. I put energy into carer role, did research re why child,c was affected - and took action' to have goals materialize. Then ... wait 4 it (!), 'this' happened (as though I needed a 3rd ‘project’ on top of the two!) I dont even know how 2/ or what I feel … actually I feel to go away. Bora Bora. grin Thatched roof off of a jetty projecting over turquoise ocean. Pina colada in one hand and a ‘batik- coloured type drink' in the other. btw, I read the thread / Book of Lou recently (as well as others, trying to catch up!!) - wow ! The 'space' (!!) she has is very attractive to me now.

Life WITH: ... re-capping the other anniversary, 1 yr later. (why? i feel the way I do ????!!)
It is harder to live with the mlcer I think (4 me anyway - such great immediate detaching is needed).

I suspect that it's easier to get on with one's life without the unpredictable ever changing extreme mlc moods & emotions in your face. The toxic churning that can b spewed at the LBS at any given time. You see, I was already 'down' when 'it' hit me. cry sleep Like many of you, I had to exert MORE effort to cheer up within the same stinking space even when I didn’t ‘feel’ to. The need to 'self-will' constant PMA, the need to be upbeat, the need to hide when NMA (negative mental attitude) took hold b/c I was going through the motions & HAD TO express them somehow (unlike h who was free to express EXACTLY what he felt, whenever he felt!) The constant avoidance of the mlc-er during those times ... db-ing, observing, then tweaking, correcting, revising ... oh God. Space! oh God!

For me, & on those days when raging was very intense, I listened intently to determine whereabouts in the house as giving space, staying dim was imperative. Avoidance was key. Often laying low until I heard h leaving (this was welcome!). There were many days I was confined because funds were very low &/or didn’t have help during those periods. I was housebound. h was housebound (since jobs weren’t forthcoming), and during those times I looked for places to hide when anxious or sad. If i felt I could be 'found,' I tried to tidy myself up, look good, act pleasant - as there was no where to run to.

'Person Prompts:'
Mlc-ers are like journal prompts - but they are 'person prompts.' And these 'person prompts' come with unscheduled spikes of emotions of all kinds & intensities popping up within the shared environment - often when inconvenient.

This ‘visual,’ (the mlc-er, among other related influencers') was always nearby. There was so much effort to try to detach when that visual - the mlcer was a constant reminder of the history shared - and a trigger to recalling mlc experiences. There was no space to break from it all, NO SPACE TO ESCAPE from it, before getting back on with the false acts & pretences about feeling so dam good about life. smirk

There were many days I 2nd guessed myself as self doubt was strengthened by fatigue. Looking for information here, but unable to filter the nuggets on many, many occasions. Dead end - I would try another day. It's hard to think 'effectively' when your own mind is distressed, tired, overloaded or brain fogged (& b/c of specific sitch you have to 'restain' until you can change the sitch).

'Gift of Space’:
It must be easier to have clearer head, think of where you're going, and plan the future while free to be oneself. Free to feel sad, mad or 'other' - instead of the constant PMA around mlc-er which isn't always authentically felt due to sitch! Lou/(Book of Lou thread) is luckier that way (by a 'little' margin as to NOT (!) under rate her pain I wouldn’t dare. this is rough stuff 4 all who come here). I just mean to say that she has the space to be HERSELF, to feel AUTHENTIC (whether good or bad) - with no pretences. For those of you NOT living with mlc-er, not only do “you have the gift of time” (quote > Cadet), but you also have the 'Gift of Space’ - don't take 4 granted!

Mind paper:
Like you, I am currently in M, after a year of trying (bd mar 6th 2014) - feel 'lukewarm'- I do know there are other ‘affecting’ factors that impact on overall sitch.

I put in on 'mind paper'.
> I have anxiety issues.
> I think I have been periodically mildly - moderately depressed.
> I am fighting for myself - whenever possible! (*GAL, PMA)
> I don’t have enough time for me -too much output, not enough *input to balance things out a bit
> I have been just over or below poverty line at different times. This one is hard! But I continue to try to change sitch. However, on a good note, I always manage to 'adjust accordingly relative to the sitch at the time ... (am grateful needs are met. have food, shelter, miss occasional bills but arrears are NEVER for long - thank u thank u! smile I do run a TIGHT ship to ensure that all stays manageable.
> My 2015 wish - wud love more help ( i can dream, can't i? :))
> I have created some interesting images - I feel some coming on after writing this post!!! (power of journalling??!!! wink

I will end as I don't want to forget ..


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2548070 03/16/15 12:50 PM
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well i asked h to take some time to sort himself out.
rec. an earful from h in that M is essesntially my fault. h did have valid points (that i had previously validated btw). cant remember details (??) now - I do feel sad by it all. I knwo that it is best at this point for us to be seaparate, take breather & sort things out. But I do feel awful


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2548071 03/16/15 12:51 PM
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cant stop crying


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2548074 03/16/15 01:01 PM
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pbetra,
Own only your portion of the demise of your marriage. Do not take on the entire problem. It takes two to make a marriage work and if he's not been there to work on the marriage, then he needs to own his portion. Mlcers always point the finger at others for things that go wrong. They never take responsibility for their portion and even if your marriage was perfect, he would say that you were at fault for it being perfect. Take what he says w/a grain of salt. Work on those areas that you know you may have been "slack" in.

I'm sorry that things aren't going well. Please continue to post. It's difficult and painful when you decide that it's time to separate, but maybe it's best since he's still stuck in the blame game and can't see the forest for the trees.

Please take care of yourself. Try to keep the focus on you.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2548141 03/16/15 04:11 PM
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Thanks AS ALWAYS Job,
you are always 'spot on' re: me (& so many of your other posts). I

Originally Posted By: job
pbetra,
Own only your portion of the demise of your marriage. Do not take on the entire problem. It takes two to make a marriage work and if he's not been there to work on the marriage, then he needs to own his portion. Mlcers always point the finger at others for things that go wrong. They never take responsibility for their portion and even if your marriage was perfect, he would say that you were at fault for it being perfect. Take what he says w/a grain of salt. Work on those areas that you know you may have been "slack" in.


I have to pay attention here for sure. Fear has affected so much as certain issues should have been dealt with earlier. I do take ownership.

Originally Posted By: job
I'm sorry that things aren't going well. Please continue to post. It's difficult and painful when you decide that it's time to separate, but maybe it's best since he's still stuck in the blame game and can't see the forest for the trees.

Please take care of yourself. Try to keep the focus on you.


h has come to me several times since R talk this AM. my head is spinning. he 'took back some', said it was "a bit much he knows" I do think on some level he is concerned but he has 2 think of where he can go as well ($$).
I went for a brief walk as parent was napping (!?) & QUIETLY RETURNED. H found me! Again trying to explain - which I acknowledged. Told me I cud relax w/him in his room. Told him I needed to wind down, Im sure u understand" I wasn't angry, & he hasnt been since the R talk - however I just needed a break from the frequent "this is whys, & you dids"... & the intensity of it all.

Thanks again job,p


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2548160 03/16/15 05:06 PM
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Hang in there. It's a rough road that both of you are traveling, but the only difference is you are dealing w/the fall out head on and not finding outside sources to make you happy.

Try to remember that there are many times when they are projecting on to you how they feel or what they did or didn't do. When he's spewing, just tell him you are sorry he feels that way and walk away. Do not engage into a heated discussion w/him, which further justifies why he wants to leave or divorce you.

Now is the time or you to take care of yourself and leave your h in God's hands. You can't fix what you didn't break.

Take care.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2548521 03/17/15 07:24 PM
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he's nice
Since the above developments, yesterday h told me he "has always loved me." There was an interest in returning to master bedroom (!) vs spare room. shocked Today he's very nice & paying for everything. Frequent touching, stroking as we pass by in common areas of home (been a while - these gestures). Compliments ... His actions have completely changed over since the R talk (which had 'brutal' components to it). So it's quite a contrast. Did I mention my head was spinning?

I do entertain the possibility that he may be 'sincere' (as only he/mlc-ers can), but it is temporary b/c so much for us is not yet resolved.

Maybe this was some sort of wake up call for him (I already got mine, mlc!) ... the possibilty that he cud lose everything home, family??

While this 'cud b' so, the vascillating between a possible wake up call & the need for mlc monster to give itself expression is not a ride I can take right now. Maybe he's just being clever and buying time? Who knows? confused eek

Didn't re-pot some plants as planned. I had many errands & was tired
Couldn't flesh out work but will try again later

(I need space. A clear head .. Life is ironic, he needed space, & now he won't give me any )

Hi Job, I read your responses over & over - it is a 'compass' of some sort, keeping me 'due N' & not off track (since the mlc behaviour/mlc is so erractic, hard to read ... just 'plain crazy').

I am thinking of:
ownership/ me
projection/ spewing
next steps /child

he's HERE !! 'submit'


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2548691 03/18/15 12:03 PM
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Today I am de-cluttering as much as I can (the 2 c's - computer & closet). I will have help today. I should go out but feel a little drained so will prioritorize to see if necessary. Want to re-pot some herbs, flowers - therapeutic 4 me.

h is 'supposed' to be trying to get place i think between the next month to beginning of summer (?) - hasn't said anything. I havent asked as I am not 'certain' of my thinking right now so will err on the 'safe' side & do those things that need to b done or are therapeutic.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2564220 05/04/15 07:56 PM
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Hi there, finally have a bit more time to complete.

Well, time is passing by & Summer is fast approaching! As expected, this has been a roller coaster - some days better than others. I have felt out of sorts on occasion. Since that turning point for me, h has 'switched' - but that's mlc for ya, we r 'fine', then there's a switch & 'ta da,' it's mlc, & now he switched (?) again. This is very confusing for me. confused

H:
He stopped going out, hangng out with the boys
would account for his time out (even though I never ask!)
started contributing some financially
found biz opportunity and immersed himself in it BIG time. fills me in on developments re this (even though I never ask)
calls out when he leaving home
tried to be intimate (many times)

me:
Sadly, I didn't feel anything much after the cruel, 'impactful conversation' (was not able to shake that numb feeling at the time )
I am beginning to 'thaw' a bit (but am not able to be intimate with him)
I am NOT getting even w/ or punishing h. I cant feel the way I used to - something happened to me that day. I changed & he experienced it (big time!) I was distant, indifferent, 'cool'. Then he 'changed' (big time) a few hours later.
I wondered if I should try since he seemed 2 b trying
Generally, h has been very observant. he asked me about how pensive i was & what was I thinking? I said that I have a few things on my mind that I need to sort out - no biggie)
At times, he seems sad & realizes that he is not reaching me
I occasionally experience times when I want the M. but feel no hope for it. h is very 'b & w' ... 'fixed' in his thinking. very confident ( & for good reason, he IS smart). It's just that you can't always speak w/someone who feels that they are right so much of the time. I mentioned something re: my father & immediately rec. "that's no excuse" - it wasn't, we were talking & I was being honest. I answered his question. This is typical - what I say is often nonsense or excuses (the 1st, 2nd 8th (!!) time, Ill let it pass, BUT come on! I've have enough of 1-way understanding).
I felt he responded the way he did (switch) since he had no options but I also suspect that he thought very much about the layers of LOSS. It hit him. He never expected me to be 'ok' with him going ... actually I never thought so either! I surprised myself, never thought that I wud live my old age without him.

I was amazed at h transformation.
The (apparent) *switch took about 2 - 3 hours (started while I went out on my errand). By the time I got back, he was clearly into the reconcile mode (I wondered - * Is this due to fact that my actions communicated how serious I was? had changed so much? that I did something that he thought wud NEVER happen? OR was it yet another 'act??!' ( dunno, & not concerned about figuring out either)

When I returned from my errand that day, he clarified some information re the fateful conversation. I was so confused and ready to move on it didn't matter. Tired, I was changing, getting ready to do the '@ home ' things ... and again, he appeared explaining something else. By the time this song & dance episode was over, he had (apparently) forgiven all the evil I had done & I was wonderful again ( "let's put it behind us, move on, blah blah ..")

The touching complimenting, thoughtfulness continued
every day after that. At night, was no different.
I see these actions as 1 of 2 things ... or a combination.
1 - the typical manupilation tactics of mlc behaviour
2 - a (eh hem) 'changed' mlc-er. This is not a stable mind so anything is possible if it serves their needs. At the beginning of this mess, h made me the enemy b/c he HAD TO, it served his needs at the time - it gave him the permission slip to do what he wanted & a nice, 'safe' person to dump all the crap on.
So why not is a 'switch back' a possibility? If switching serves current needs, then switch back we will! Anything is possible in this 'state of mind,' isn't it? Anything. There is so much coping & desperation (which is NOT a great combination).

Although I fell for this last year (trying after seeing him 'try' & standing 4 M), I no longer have the endurance to keep at it, or the belief in anything this 'frail & unstable'. I think he will get frustrated eventually & revert ('tick tock'). No resolution (re real issues), no change.

H is already showing signs. I sensed some anger at some point ( re intimacy) but h was careful not 2 be too obvious. He tries to turn down the rage around me. Although I am saddened about how this is unfolding I cannot support the level of entitlement/sex. Consistent & ongoing sex (as if all is dandy) is no solution, if other areas needing attn. are ignored. He's ignoring other areas!! It's as if b/c he switched (back) that I should just pick up where we were and 'feel feelings.' Am simply not there yet, I dont have that particular switch!
We are pleasant to each other in spite of the persistent strangeness that surrounds us in daily life. He seeks me out to chat with me. I am not interested in getting back so I return the pleasantries.

Me again! w/child, C.

On a good note, spent loads of QUALITY time w. child (last year at this time, I did not know what on earth was happening as I was just entering the wacky world of mlc & all it brings). I have been organizing bit by bit. C is doing so much better! We also DO more outside b/c the weather has been so good (kite, biking ... ice cream) board games when we can't get out. The outdoor time has been good for both of us & improvements at school are obvious! Even the teachers are surprised. I continue to work at keeping C happy.

I also got a mini assignment!! grin Am enjoying challenging my mind. There's a bit of money coming in as well. When I get my first paycheck, I will take C out to eat at fav restaurant (including dessert! laugh ) Just the two of us!

So that's it for now. Thought I would fill you in re: the switch but ended up reading other posts when I came by to post my own. p


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2567066 05/12/15 06:28 PM
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H is 'quieter' & distant. Probably realizes that I am not falling for anything. He is 'careful. Tries to conceal rage. 'Also wanted favor recently (the proposal comes w/some risk). Feels entitled - expectation of me is like that of a spouse b/c it serves this particular need/purpose. We're NOT, we are roommates ... I am 'expected' to (conveniently) oblidge (but am NOT afraid to say "no" this time whenever sitch comes up)

H was more communicative yesterday - dont know why. Was less so today. Has other things on his mind including work which is proving to be more challenging than hoped.

I am also beginning to suspect that accomdation options may not working out as planned either - but will see in June, early July.
(See what happens when 'party animals' have to sacrafice for each other? eek )


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2567636 05/14/15 12:20 PM
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Just need to put this on 'e-paper' ...

h is mad this AM, mad real mad but it's the 'quiet type of mad'. if looks cud kill, I wud b dead right now.

We have been civil whenever we cross paths in home. I got the usual greeting, but it was short. Recently he has been nice, we have very short conversations - shallow but light hearted comments and then I leave to give him his space.

This morning the coldness & 'killer' looks followed the greeting eek . I did not make conversation after that (In the past, I would have tried to smooth things out. Its been a while -> I no longer 'reward' this behaviour w/attention)

I can only sumise that it is 1 of 2 or 3 or all things:
1 - he's NOT getting through re: another place & time is passing by quickly (also here is damn good! he will lose a lot - it's nice, warm .. pets, plants, good culinary smells from kitchen, the kid when he wants him, me when curious, music). The sit down areas are nice too. Nothing is new or designer but plp who come here do like it. h has also been bringing buddy to hang out around the various nooks & crannies that I managed to make warm, cosy, & just plain 'feel good.' They drink and talk 4 hours.

2 - I have not taken him up re (at risk) request/ proposal
I know he is desperate but I can go out of my way or try with someone who is not yet ready to end this sham.

3 - he tried very much re intimacy. The timing was off for me after the cruel conversation - it was all timing. That I KNOW for sure would affect him. I wish i cud b a good fake but am not & fake is just that. IT TIME TO GET REAL

Whatever it is, the reaction is a temper tantrum re not getting his way. I realize he thinks I 'owe' him big time. His perception was much greater than reality. I never took much b/c I know my mil would 'throw it all in my face' one day if she cud. Good thing I did b/c it isn't her I ended up having to prove this with but him. He has no case - I was always 'low maintenance b/c I was practical. He was the spender.

I am 'hiding' right now as I write - soemthing I did thoroughout the past year when I was dim/dark. This is what we do when we live with the mlc-er - aviod seeing them, interacting w/.

I am not affected the same way though. I have calmed down a bit generally speaking laugh However, at one point today, it affected me as I was not 'expecting' this hostility so early in the quiet of the morning as I worked on my assignment. I guess it was a sort of 'corosive intrusion' come out of no where on my quiet karma.

I went outside to do some stretches. I have a mtg with my client this AM & will break from the home in a few hours. When I get back, I hope to get space from him until he calms down. I hope things work out for him as we both need to sort our selves out b 4 any serious progress can b made.

Going to organize my things for later this AM.
Keep good 'all,' p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2568003 05/15/15 02:30 PM
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Yesterday, h returned much later in the day a different person. Was pleasant, warm, talkative. Gave me update re current project (as if I intend to 'partake' re risk to ME). Some of his concerns were resolved so the mood change was evident. He obviously left with much on his mind, but people are also nicer when they want something as well. 'Twin' that with the selfishness that pervades the mlc mind, & that's to be expected.

I thought to myself -
mlc is (almost grin ) like science, observing kinetic energy to restful state

> drop object ('round,' for illustration purposes), witness 'lotsa energy'
(BOMB! BOMB & 'even more BOMB'! shocked )
> object bounces up, down from left to right, 'closing in on the height' with each 'set' of kinetic actions / energy
('bouncy, bouncy' emotional flux, raging etc, 'chemistry') mad
> height from floor continues to decrease as object gets closer to rest
(decrease of anger, a little calmer w/time but NOT (!!) quite 'there' yet confused )
> & finally a restful state (!!) ... that 'knock, knock, knocking sound', becoming less & less so, like dropping a marble before it settles down
(out of tunnel! smile - re the lucky ones)

I left 'his science' & 'chemical reactions' behind me though. Had a good meeting although things got scaled down so I won't make as much $$ as I had hoped. Had made plans re: child, 'C' during holidays/GAL ... so will tweak to suit. However, it's great (!) to have something else other than domestic related stuff & mlc, to challenge my mind with! smile


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2568227 05/15/15 10:42 PM
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Dear Pbetra,

Sorry you are here but as you know, this is the best place to be for a lousy reason.

I also apologize for the length of this post.

I read your thread. A few questions I have are what are your ages? And are you able to financially support yourself without your h's income?

Sounds as if his support has been so erratic, I have to ask you, what's the worst that could realistically happen if he leaves? And, or, if he stays and spends all the money?

My h's ordeal cost us quite the fortune.

Also, I could not help but notice that despite your growth this past year, 90% of your focus remains on HIS mood and HIS behaviors.

How about not looking at those at all, for a day? And then make it a week? You can always "Check in" to see what he's up to after you do a LOT MORE GAL and you must;

We hammer the GAL here for one reason; it works. You are NOT detached from him and you can't really detach, imo, without GAL.

GAL is not about our WAS but ironically, it tends to be the single thing they most notice and that most intrigues them. In some small ways you have already noticed this yet your h remains in his semi Walk Away or "cake and eat it too" (or MLC) mode.

Btw, I don't think labeling it "MLC" is all that helpful b/c in some cases it means the LBSer sticks around with the misguided notion that MLCers always return to the marriages. But They usually do not return.


For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. We had 3 kids and then, that included a baby.

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your h.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter. Later served on the Bd of Directors & it was a great network connection for me.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).

I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too. Met fun creative people nearby.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv in Hollywood. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to drive a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

Went skydiving. Loved it so much I did it again. And plan on doing it again, soon!

Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.

(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of their long winters).

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.

Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

You must meet NEW people who don't know your situation and who thusly help reduce the obsessing about your h.

I know you hurt less now and that's great But the obsessing is still pretty full on and you'll make yourself crazy.

The early posts of yours indicated that you realized you only control YOU.

So that is where your focus must be. Next time you begin to notice HIS behavior or mood or wonder if he is in "replay/revision of marital history" or MLC or whatver

get a mirror out and work on you.

Good luck!


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2568229 05/15/15 10:49 PM
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PS

Getting back to basics in DB.

What are Your 180s?

What new Positive behaviors are you using to

Counter his negative images/justifications for periodically wanting out of the marriage?

(Example of a 180 that counters his negative, would be If he complained you were "always late"

then you'd become MRS PUNCTUAL and arrive on time OR early for everything).

You want him to realize his "data" about you is not real, or is outdated. You are not the woman he sometimes vilifies.

You want him to second guess his lack of commitment to the marriage.

But you can only do that by becoming the better choice.

What are your short term goals?

And of course, as I posted above, how about those GAL?

By putting the focus on yourself and committing to it, I promise you that your life will improve at a much faster rate than it can by staring at him & "Observing".

Spend less time "REACTING" and all of your time proactively living your life well.

Your son is watching you more than you realize. You have to show him, by modeling it, that he is in charge of his own happiness.

Dig deep b/c the real journey in life is an inward one. Decide the traits YOU want to work on and the flaws you don't want to keep, and become the best Pbetra you can.

That way, regardless of your h's journey, you will be just fine.


Make sense?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2568267 05/16/15 01:09 AM
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25yearsmlc, this is a lot of GAL! I don’t know if I have this much energy as you did. It works for some people, I guess.

And this is always a downer for LBS:
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Btw, I don't think labeling it "MLC" is all that helpful b/c in some cases it means the LBSer sticks around with the misguided notion that MLCers always return to the marriages. But They usually do not return.

Why even give any advice on any DB and 180? Just stick with the GAL and move on activities. I never undertook these posts. They tell you that there is very little chance of R, and the chances of MLCer to return to the M are very slim, but at the same time advice you taking steps to DB and this: “You want him to second guess his lack of commitment to the marriage.” BUT!!! “They usually do not return”!


M:50
H:52
S28 (my S from previous marriage)
M:17 + 3
BD: 06/12
S: 06/12 - H works in another state
BrightFuture #2568270 05/16/15 01:18 AM
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25 can answer herself, but I know why I did.
Quote:
Why even give any advice on any DB and 180? Just stick with the GAL and move on activities. I never undertook these posts. They tell you that there is very little chance of R, and the chances of MLCer to return to the M are very slim, but at the same time advice you taking steps to DB and this: “You want him to second guess his lack of commitment to the marriage.” BUT!!! “They usually do not return”!
Because it's not all about the person that leaves. And because if there is going to be a chance, that's a way to find out.

MLC is a hotly contested term in the psych world. Some buy into it and others don't believe it exists. Others, say that crisis is what happens during a mid-life transition. i.e. transitions can be tumultuous or they can be smooth. If the former, then the person often creates a "crisis" through their actions.

Another way to look at it is they are becoming (wholly) human during this transition. And it isn't always pretty.

I dunno about you, but GAL and DB together worked very well for me. Did I restore my marriage? Nope. But it wasn't mine to lose nor save. Did I save me? Abso-friggin-lutely.

25's advice is sound. The results are not always what is hoped for initially, but I've yet to see them be "bad". I've often seen the results be "good" for both parties, even mine. I don't talk to my ex and she doesn't talk to me, but I've seen where DB made a difference in my life, previous marriage, my ex, and in others.

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
AJM #2568312 05/16/15 03:56 AM
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My point about labeling the WAS versus the MLCer is --

what's the point?

OUR COURSE OF ACTION IS THE SAME...

Sure, there could be value in knowing what to expect, which is that 'everyone is different", but I fear that some of the folks who label their spouse as "MLCer"

are making 2 mistakes that will cost them dearly. Pbetra, please don't be offended, okay? But you've been here a year so let's give this a whirl.

1) they are taking the focus OFF of themselves and whatever role they played in the demise of their marriage; losing out on the one side of this whole ordeal that is actually positive, which is OUR self growth;

(and btw, I have rarely seen even a true "MLCer" spin out of control when they'd been truly happy and content in the marriage, before)

and

2) the LBSer who keeps labeling their spouse, ends up wasting time waiting to see "what happens next" instead of GAL, doing 180s and essentially they ignore the whole concept behind DBing

which is that since we are all we control, we have to take charge of OUR lives and live them well.

Sitting around staring at the MLCer and "diagnosing" them ---instead of working on our own lives,

under the misguided notion that if we do nothing, THEN they might come home,

is a waste of our precious time. Reading this thread made me feel that Pbetra had taken pieces of DBing, the MLC part and then slapped the label on her h

not digging deep to own her own part yet sometimes vaguely saying she was 'taking all the blame" (while not actually working on those traits, or at least if she was, we don't know b/c they are not mentioned, specifically)

AND

I've seen other posters around, who make me worry that there's a whole lot of "isn't my MLC Wife just crazy??" going on when there could be a lot more of

Here's what I'm going to do to improve the life of my children and ME".

Oh -- as to the GAL in Alaska, remember that aside from H's issues, and wanting to stay forever or go back there,

I was dealing with a lot of cold darkness (literally, I mean). So I HAD to do things to keep from surrendering to it. I noticed several other wives sort of disappearing into their homes til spring returned (or going back home to the lower 48)

or just drinking like crazy til the sun came back (I always thought of that as "Plan B")

But yes, it was by far - the hardest I've ever worked, to just be alright. Fortunately for me it got better and all the effort paid off.

Hope this helps.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2568325 05/16/15 06:52 AM
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AJ, I’m not saying that GAL is bad. I think it just different for some people. When do too much GAL, I actually feel worse. I’m drained out of energy. I have the personality that benefits from time alone. I recharge when I’m alone. Plus, it helps me to work on myself, dig into my issues. I feel like too much GAL is actually similar to MLCer behavior to just distract from internal work. If it makes sense… Plus, in my situation, I feel like no matter how much GAL I do, I’m still stuck. Sometime I wonder how much more I need to do to finally feel good.

25yearsmlc, thanks for clarifying some of the points. I get it. Yes, GAL is needed to survive and be alright. And I totally see how hard it would be in Alaska in the winter time. This I can completely understand. I would not feel good in that kind of environment. I need the sun and day light.
I just want to comment on this:
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
(and btw, I have rarely seen even a true "MLCer" spin out of control when they'd been truly happy and content in the marriage, before)

Was I a perfect wife? No. I had my issues. I worked on these issue. I’m still working on some of them. I admit my mistakes. However, when it comes to H’s unhappiness in the marriage, I just cannot take the blame. According to him, the main issue was us arguing about one thing. H thought that he was entitled to have very close relationship with women, especially single women. He could exchange inappropriate texts and pictures, he could flirt, he could invite them to the events with him, while ignoring me. Once in while I would caught him on this and confront him. So, he definitely was not happy with this kind of relationship, because he thought that he should be allowed to do what he wanted and I should just go along with it and keep my cool.

So, yes, he was unhappy, and he left… to search for a perfect woman who would be like “one of the boys”, with benefits, and also be reliable and loyal. He is still searching for this wonder woman…

pbetra, sorry for the high jack. You have great advice from the vets here. Don’t get me wrong. I believe in GAL and putting focus on yourself.


M:50
H:52
S28 (my S from previous marriage)
M:17 + 3
BD: 06/12
S: 06/12 - H works in another state
BrightFuture #2568390 05/16/15 01:04 PM
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Hi there,
I was just having my coffee & thought that I would check in ... didn't expect this! grin
(a few responses since I posted ... )

Firstly, it will take too much time to reply now as I have meditation, an errand & my project - a BUSY day today, so will do so sometime tomorrow.

Secondly
, 25yrsmlc although I have literally (!!) skimmed through these replies, I am NOT offended. In many instances you pretty much hit the nail on the head! eek I have not always been able to 'do', or think clearly so I was not even effective to myself (this has been evident in other (!) areas of my life as well, & I did have concerns at one time - sadly it was 1 more thing for me to worry about in addition to all that was going on).

Lastly, I appreciate ALL the feedback incl. BF & AJ! smile Having this 'conversation' allows me to see someone else's 'take' on my sitch. When one is 'drenched' in an emotional whirlwind for whatever reason, it's hard to 'see' properly. Vision is not objective or logical, often marred by a brain in distress.

When I get advice from forum members, I get an external view of things. Something I can only benefit from (no matter what the opinion of each!)
Great food for thought! cool THANK YOU all !! 'e-talk' tomorrow, p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2568530 05/16/15 09:46 PM
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Quick comment -
Quote:
When do too much GAL, I actually feel worse. I’m drained out of energy. I have the personality that benefits from time alone. I recharge when I’m alone. Plus, it helps me to work on myself, dig into my issues.
I think you misunderstand what GAL means then, m'dear. At least to me, it means doing what recharges you. What it is that makes you feel alive. The fun things you've wanted to do.

For me, an extrovert at heart, it usually means being in a crowd for several hours. In the thick of things. Sometimes, it means being alone and getting some things accomplished that I've neglected.

For you, it may mean spending more time alone. But only if that's what works for you and helps you recharge. In many cases, we need a balance of both.

To me the point is to live your life as you WANT to live it. And in some cases, we don't know what that life would look like without our long term partner in the picture. So we often encourage people to try things they haven't done before (within reason) and "explore" the life they may not have even considered existed beyond their previous relationship.

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
BrightFuture #2568588 05/17/15 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: BrightFuture
AJ, I’m not saying that GAL is bad. I think it just different for some people. When do too much GAL, I actually feel worse. I’m drained out of energy. I have the personality that benefits from time alone. I recharge when I’m alone.

By definition and using the term correctly, "GAL" by is Not doing "too much". GAL is a positive.

Some folks fear GAL, b/c they are stuck, and inertia is easy to embrace.

Some fear GAL b/c they convince themselves their WAS will then think they don't care anymore, b/c pleading and constantly seeking reassurance & being needy, feels intuitively like what is needed, but that is rarely the case.

And some argue against GAL b/c they just resist the concept that anything is truly going to help them, and or that anything is within their control.

Sometimes, that^^ is a symptom of other issues, and it's worth looking at more closely.


Plus, it helps me to work on myself, dig into my issues. I feel like too much GAL is actually similar to MLCer behavior to just distract from internal work. If it makes sense…

"GAL" stands for Getting A Life. Not hyperactively doing busy work or inviting more stress into our lives. I'm not sure if you are arguing about my particular GAL list b/c you feel it would be too much for you personally, which is fine, or if you think I"m challenging others to do what I did. I'm not.

The cold and dark fronts were a big part of why I did what I did, which I said.

It's a lot more GAL than I do now, b/c it was too much for me to keep doing forever.

And I live in a warm sunny place now and I enjoy the company of my h now, too. My need to GAL is lessened,

but I do make myself do more than I "feel like", on an ongoing basis - just b/c Its easy for me to get complacent.


Plus, in my situation, I feel like no matter how much GAL I do, I’m still stuck. Sometime I wonder how much more I need to do to finally feel good.


Dear Bright, hey,
Since I'm not familiar with your GAL or your story's thread, I can't address the point about your feeling stuck, except as I mention below.

I just listed my Alaskan things b/c a lot of people here say they are "too broke" or "too busy" to GAL and really, they're just stuck.

Being stuck can feel less terrifying than moving forward, which could be the root of their "stuckness".

I remind myself that if not changing had lead to tons of happiness for me and h, I'd have stayed stuck. But I was here in DB land, so I was in tremendous pain,

and I came to believe that the pain of Not changing - had to be LESS than the pain of remaining the same.


25yearsmlc, thanks for clarifying some of the points. I get it. Yes, GAL is needed to survive and be alright. And I totally see how hard it would be in Alaska in the winter time. This I can completely understand. I would not feel good in that kind of environment. I need the sun and day light.


Amen! It was not the cold (well, okay -55'F IS damn cold and weird, but you get my point) it was the lack of light.

I was battling a lot of fronts.
-Per psychology books and experience, Depression is usually isolating. So we have to combat that. (Hence my suggestion to those who only do solo actives as
"GAL" to meet new people.)

Paradoxically, we tend NOT to want to go out or "go do something," and we tend to resist meeting new people, when in fact it is just what we need.

I felt the urge to withdraw and "hibernate" in Alaska. Just wanted the 3 years there to pass. I wanted to "make stew" and have a fire, and watch a movie and go to bed, most nights. I could see why the average military wife gained 15lbs per year.

I had to overcome a lot of emotions, resistance & plain old inertia to do any GAL.

Plus the sheer logistics of going out in those temperatures and with whiteout conditions, just to get OUT and do something there - were huge.

...just walking in the woods was stressful b/c of the wildlife. I literally had to carry a gun, which was NEW to me. At first the novelty was exciting but as we heard true stories of bear attacks, not so fun.

So I relate to some of what you say, but you said yourself that you feel stuck. Living up in Alaska was the hardest place I've ever lived, by far. And so it was the hardest I had to work to just be alright...

I don't know what your GAL things are, but maybe I will see that on your thread.



I just want to comment on this:
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
(and btw, I have rarely seen even a true "MLCer" spin out of control when they'd been truly happy and content in the marriage, before)



Was I a perfect wife? No. I had my issues. I worked on these issue. I’m still working on some of them.


Let me be really clear. I did not make this^^ comment to "assign blame" --period.

I made it to keep our focus on the one and only person we control...OURSELVES.

My concern is If/when we decide the label "MLC" explains all of our spouses choices,

we will NOT grow or change nearly as much as we would have, had we dug deep, and 'bravely looked inward.

By labeling the "wacky MLCer" as such, sometimes it just glosses over our role and serves as a dismissive avoidance of self examination.

Dismissing all the WAS complaints as unreasonable, & all due to their "MLC"

means we will miss out on the chance to get the single upside out of this ordeal - which is the self actualization that only comes from a courageous journey into our behaviors and emotions.

Obiouvsly there are exceptions and no one here, least of all me, is making sweeping generalizations that apply to all. They don't.

Choose what helps and disregard the rest.


I admit my mistakes. However, when it comes to H’s unhappiness in the marriage, I just cannot take the blame.


You don't have to "take the blame" so much as figure out which of your behaviors are Not helping your marriage - and which were/are.

This is a solution based approach to marriage restoration, not a jury that issues a verdict or apportions out guilt.


According to him, the main issue was us arguing about one thing. H thought that he was entitled to have very close relationship with women, especially single women. He could exchange inappropriate texts and pictures, he could flirt, he could invite them to the events with him, while ignoring me. Once in while I would caught him on this and confront him. So, he definitely was not happy with this kind of relationship, because he thought that he should be allowed to do what he wanted and I should just go along with it and keep my cool.


This^^ is a pretty hilarious. description of your marriage. I do have to ask, what would HE say the issues were, if HE were here?

Actually Bright, if I have time maybe I can look to your situation on your thread - and then I can better address your comments.


So, yes, he was unhappy, and he left… to search for a perfect woman who would be like “one of the boys”, with benefits, and also be reliable and loyal. He is still searching for this wonder woman…

pbetra, sorry for the high jack. You have great advice from the vets here. Don’t get me wrong. I believe in GAL and putting focus on yourself.


Here's a tip that irks the heck of some folks here but if you read what I'm writing and NOT what you fear it implies,

you might find that you agree. Just ask and I'll elaborate if something is not clear.

Deal?

Okay, imo, the

best news a spouse can get when seeing a good marriage counselor is that they have some real issues to work on. Yes, that they own some or a lot of the problems within the marriage. I think that is great news and I mean that literally.

Because it means the spouse can do something to improve the situation. They are not powerless.

I think being "wrong" - is a whole lot better than being right, but powerless.

IF we have few or no real flaws to work on, and or feel we already did, that is just so tragic.

It means we are powerless to change anything, b/c we are already as good as it gets for us.

So when h and I go to get a tune up these days, even when we went to Retrovaille way back when I was in so much pain, I wanted to hear about what I Could do to improve our marriage.

Make sense?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2568706 05/17/15 04:32 PM
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Hi 25yrsmlc,

thanks for taking the time to post - I will try to answer all your questions.

re hijacking BF - no worries (don't see it that way just related stuff from other people's sitch that comes up re: my own somehow) grin
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
A few questions I have are what are your ages? And are you able to financially support yourself without your h's income?
Am 50 years (like spouse) - am not as marketable as h. some admin work history but primarily homemaker.
personal savings practically used up, the reason why I am happy re assignment & trying with branding as project head is happy with my work so far.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Sounds as if his support has been so erratic, I have to ask you, what's the worst that could realistically happen if he leaves? And, or, if he stays and spends all the money?
I will save money if he leaves - he uses more than what he replaces. using his money, saving by using resources here. Resources I am controlling for me & others as this sitch is not stable.
He is VERY marketable, he will land on his feet somehow - with my age & 'homemaker' work history ???- not so much.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Also, I could not help but notice that despite your growth this past year, 90% of your focus remains on HIS mood and HIS behaviors.
How about not looking at those at all, for a day? And then make it a week? You can always "Check in" to see what he's up to after you do a LOT MORE GAL and you must
This is an excellent idea! I will start today. I have been *caught up way too much ...
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
We hammer the GAL ... You are NOT detached from him and you can't really detach, imo, without GAL
I know.
*The detach w/love has been tricky 4 me.
Am seeing how I can incorporate some of your GAL suggestions re my sitch more below, which is really quite an impressive list!! smile
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Btw, I don't think labeling it "MLC" is all that helpful b/c in some cases it means the LBSer sticks around with the misguided notion that MLCers always return to the marriages. But They usually do not return.
I get your point re mlc label ... didn't even think of it really confused . It started with initial high impact sitch & grew habitual. Change is always happening even with us/h, a year has past but here I am still pinning the initial 'high impact-sitch label' after all this time. Have to be mindful moving forward - point taken![/quote]

=================================
* MUST DECLUTTER re improved GAL

I know that some entries have been crytic ...

Know something? will have 2 post this related information to above post soon. Just wanted to answer questions, (hope I did!)
Will reply > re 25yrsmlc 'ps' before I get into 'de cluttering!'
To b contd ... smile


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

25yearsmlc #2568707 05/17/15 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
PS .. basics in DB.
What are Your 180s? ...
What new Positive behaviors are you using to
Counter his negative images/justifications for periodically wanting out of the marriage?

*I was more of a 'take charge in & out the home' person (non domestic), more aggressive/solution oriented. More proactive socially. More independent. Less 'homey' & associated with laundry etc
... smirk
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
You want him to realize his "data" about you is not real, or is outdated. You are not the woman he sometimes vilifies. You want him to second guess his lack of commitment to the marriage.But you can only do that by becoming the better choice.
What are your short term goals?

Wanted income.
To lose weight (I did)
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
By putting the focus on yourself and committing to it, I promise you that your life will improve at a much faster rate than it can by staring at him & "Observing".
Spend less time "REACTING" and all of your time proactively living your life well.
Your son is watching you more than you realize. You have to show him, by modeling it, that he is in charge of his own happiness.
Dig deep b/c the real journey in life is an inward one. Decide the traits YOU want to work on and the flaws you don't want to keep, and become the best Pbetra you can.
Thank you thank you thank you

================

To expand re above without distracting from your questions (incl. but not limited to other goals - medium term, ongoing ..):

what changed:

- I lost weight 20 lbs
- Got assignment for 1st time since here (which I was elated about!!).
- Started saying/acting "no" to h (THIS ONE is the 'mother of all changes, the biggie - as I 'AM fear.'

I recall when i first started here, desperately trying to get information re 'confrontation' for fear of just that! It was my daring to tell him "leave" with his ultimatum that resulted in the 'switched behaviour'. I cried that day, but not regretful & certainly woudln't hav done otherwise. I [i]couldn't do that a year ago, couldn't deny him intimacy when needed
- Started playing with expressive arts
- Started meditation not long ago
- started my own book too 25yrsmlc grin wink - just too brain strained to get past a particulur point, so it's 'marinating'! Am loving the images I am producing.
- Spent more time trying to figure c. for new year re c.'s issues & resolved (!) so much! ta da! C.is doing better at school - grades, demeanor, participation! Teacher is happy "had to" speak w/me! laugh
- Less depression so far
- A little more retention of information (i mentioed this in a not posted yet b/c i wanted to answer you)

Would like:
- Would like to brand enough to get a desent flow of work
- *To travel even if staycations, day trips. More GAL
- *Combat fatigue. Get more help so I can LIVE more, & survive less
- Continue working on fear issues - I don't 'feel' it most of the time which is what is sooooo misleading! I 'feel normal' relative to the amount of fear I carry.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2568872 05/18/15 03:18 AM
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AJ, yes, you are right, I have been thinking about GAL as some kind of activity outside of the house. When you put it this way, that it could be some time alone, it makes more sense now. Plus, it takes away some pressure, LOL.
Originally Posted By: AJM
To me the point is to live your life as you WANT to live it. And in some cases, we don't know what that life would look like without our long term partner in the picture. So we often encourage people to try things they haven't done before (within reason) and "explore" the life they may not have even considered existed beyond their previous relationship.
– Yes, I agree with this. Thank for “spelling” it out for me.

25yearsmlc, this made me think: “Being stuck can feel less terrifying than moving forward, which could be the root of their "stuckness".” You might hit the nail on the head here. And thank you for sharing your experience in Alaska. Sounds like you had to push yourself very hard there.

I don’t understand what you found to be hilarious in my descriptions of the main issue that H brought up. I’m sorry if it was not very clear or sounded ridiculous (which it probably does to people who didn’t know us in our M.) It could be that I didn’t describe it well enough. English is my second language, so it is quite possible that what I write sounds right to me, but not to other people.

I also might misstated that this was the main issue. The main issue was that he was no longer in love with me. And here are the others that I was told about right after the BD:
1. We argued about his female friends. Hence I displayed the trends of jealousy and being clingy. – I admit that (to a certain extend) and have been working on this.
2. We didn’t talk like we used to at the beginning of the marriage. – True. Lots of resentment built over the years.
3. He didn’t want out marriage to be like one of my parents with constant arguing. He only has about 10-15 years to live (judging by his family’s history), so he wants to be happy for the remaining part of life.
4. I was spying on him, hence he lost the trust. – Partially true. I was authorized to look at the accounts, etc. Was it my fault that I was able to spot the questionable stuff and ask him about it?
5. I was very negative and this is something he said would never change. – True. I had the tendency to be negative (I thought it was being realistic.) This issue I fixed, I can say that 100%. He is actually more negative than I’m these days, LOL.
6. I didn’t like to go the concerts. – Completely not true. Not sure where it came from. Actually I have an idea, but not going to go into it here.
7. I didn’t like to go to the bars with him. – Also not true.
8. I didn’t make lots of friends and didn’t keep in touch with people I met. – Partially true. I’m just not one of these people who are in touch with anybody and everybody 24/7, like on Facebook, if you know what I mean.
9. H’s sister said to him that she was surprised that we even were still together. – This one completely doesn’t make sense to me, but it was one of the reasons.
These are the once I remember. I might have missed some. Feel free to say that those are hilarious too. Some of them actually are. And I don’t know what he would say the issues were in our M if you ask him now. He might actually not know anymore.

Sorry for the high jack again.

Pbetra, I know what you mean about not being detached enough. I’m coming to 3 years post DB, and I still have the moments…

Congratulations on losing the weight! I’ve trying to lose a few LBs, but without success. I do meditation too. It helps. How about friends? Do you any close friends, GFs?


M:50
H:52
S28 (my S from previous marriage)
M:17 + 3
BD: 06/12
S: 06/12 - H works in another state
Matt165 #2569027 05/18/15 03:26 PM
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Before I begin, I think I left this info that related to the above responses, it was actually the 'tail end'.

I may have answered that I agreed with -
> not detached
> agree w/ getting together with re people who know nothing of sitch. This would NEVER have occured to me.
My good friends know. When people see you alone & they too are alone, they 'sniff out the sameness,'then gravitate. It's a 2-way reaching out street.

I got esp. close to one individual - we were both suffering the same fate & the coincidences were uncanny! shocked The two h's were very similar. Soooo it was inevitable - we vented re our similar sitch. The other (not so close but a good friend) would ask how r things? And the talk would begin.

It's easy to be with people who you share common issues with. After all, no one else 'gets it.'
The flip side in this case is the all too frequent regurgitation of mlc & all its craziness intruding on everyday life - not getting balance with non mlc talk. This can certainly keep an lbs in the same place. And boy or boy did we talk! Just didn't think of it - thk. u!


----------------------------------
And now for the current post (turned out much L O N G E R than planned!!)
'Addendum': Slumbered

Thanks for waking me out of my slumber 25yrsmlc - this conversation has me thinking a lot. Thanks as well AJ & Bf, your feedback allows me to reflect on overall sitch as well, in an effort to do better, in this my 2nd yr.

Below is a bit of a spin off from the 25yrsmlc's post- 'parts 1 & 2' (aka 'ps') & your own responses.

Not always specific:
I know I may have come across as crytic at times, so I am genuinely trying to decipher when & why 'cryptic occured.' This regards not being 'specific' sometimes (I thought I was!) laugh I was thinking of all the advice re GAL & why I was not consistent. After all, 25yrsmlc was preaching to the converted even if it didn't seem that way.

Irregular:
First of all, there were many times when I did not post regularly. Sometimes certain incidents/ events'occured but were missed or not posted, & so re-emergence to the forum seemed 'gappy.' This is more of an unconscious action.
There is also some information that I will NOT post on the web. I trust this forum, very much - we all came here for a reason. It's that huge circle external to this forum that I am mindful of. This is more of a conscious action.
So there could be a 'gappy feel' in there soemtimes ...

Last night I slept quite well. However, I do not always sleep well. As a matter of fact, most times i don't. I don't typically take sleeping pills b/c I have to check on parent twice during night. My body is like a perfectly working clock now! First wake up call at 2, next at 5 (European trains could run on my time!)

Excuse me:
The remaining explanations would have some *'excuses' & will take some serious contemplation to sort irrelevant from relelvant (this can be like sludge or a bargain bin - sorting the crap from the good finds smirk )
What is 'excuse'? What was the reason for?

'Mind' the GAL:
I am thinking if I believe in GAL, why didn't I do more of it? After all, I have told myself that by 'doing,' I would get away from everyday reality, and the practise of this/GAL would help replace 'bad mind-space' with 'good /different (experiences) mind-space.' And a happy mind is a great place to live!!

*What stopped my rhythm & why didn't I see it? (Thinking out loud) confused

> location location location
It's not bad here, but it's QUIET. Pretty, but quiet. Pretty quiet! Ha grin
Demographically, I dont have many 'immediate' GAL options. I have to travel for that (not far, but it's not 'here' either)
My thinking was limited to the physical. I forgot that I wanted to practise an idea from Cameron's The Artist's Way (one 'self' date a week which is a WONDERFUL IDEA when you think of it). The creativity comes in thinking about how to 'interpret' a date that is beneficial for you - be it going to a place, making something, spending time alone (& how?) but that's another post! I think I sugggested this before (?) but forgot for myself somehow! (?)

- sporadic crime in the area
Well this is the world isn't it? I was warned re a spate of abductions & told to be more careful re 'my get up & walk habits' when possible. I still (!) go (as i enjoy walks) but awareness is heightened. That has / will NOT change. This is non-issue but related to location, above & autonomy (just a 'look at' as I lay out what I can before me to see what's going on with me)

> $$
I know that this $$ may seem as an excuse (?!) &/or maybe I am just stuck. Again, I am trying to bring clarity to sitch (just vent-writing on the e-page here). Thing is, there were times when money WAS a burden.

This was a problem with no work 'on the horizon' until recently. It's takes time to get known esp. when you are not 'out there' b/c you CAN"T be out there. frown Thanks to technology (!!) though - I am trying to optimize, since I do not have the autonomy to go /do as I please at any given time.

Generally speaking, financial needs are met (amen, thk u thk u), but quite often there is simply no room for anything beyond that (needs include some care arrangements which were put in place years ago. details r NOT for web).

> home needed/needs constant repair work!
have had ongoing plumbing, electrical ... part of my ceiling even caved in with water damage (leaving really attractive opening ) I think I got carried away surviving, not living in the current of all the issues. It was a 'take care of NOW or it's just going to get worse' type of thing. And so they came, one problem after the other ...

Egs.
One day when I was fed up (!) of constant budgeting & needed to get out, I thought "dammit" (I was just 'full).' mad I had an invitation & intended to accept ( re coffee house). The first thought was "do I really have money for this?" then the next, "When (!!) will you have money?" That was it - GOING! (this antagonism & polar pulls re money 4 needs not want 2s' was getting to me).
Some attendees were 'acquaintances (so no personal talk emerged btw mlc25yrs) grin

The outing was wonderful! Had a great time! I left earlier than the others (as usual). I always have to get back to house for some reason or another (this will be so until I can afford to have a full time help at house to stay w/elderly prt). I usually work around it when carer or h is physically at home (h tells me if he will be at home or not when I ask. I don't ask for details. I let him know that I need to b away for a few hours & if he will be here or not - that sort of thing). Should an emergency (health, electrical, other) occur, at least someone can call for help.

Anyway, this was a low period financially, so I taxi-ed part of the way & walked the remainder. When I had to pay taxi, I was $1.00 short! (my error - I was pretty sure I planned EVERYTHING down to the last detail to make this outing possible). For a brief moment, I panicked (the money stress was getting to me at that time), but then I remembered I had quarters (! yea) and paid him.

As I was walking the route I planned after the taxi leg of the trip, I thought 'God' whoever, he, she or it actually is was with me smile .. I thanked 'life' for having those 4 quarters (seems silly I know) & also for being able to go (!!) to the outing, although I would have liked to stay longer (I do feel as though I am always on the clock, but 'some' is better than NONE!!!). The void was filled a bit b/c of the GAL.

During those lean 'lean' periods I walked to buy food, AND I wasn't always in the mood or had the energy to do. All of this is tiring & stressful when one is essentially 'just surviving' & not living. I didn't realize when I got lost in the fog ... This is just distraction. Loss of focus so 'things happen to' & one loses control. Awareness of personal sitch is key. I see that now.

I fed, bathed, 'toilet-ed' parent-patient, lifted (!!) I may be young relative to an elderly parent, but I am 50). My parent looks feeble but the dead weight is a struggle for me some days. I have injured my wrist, my index finger and thumb during lifting periods. I am getting a hernia I am told. Ba ba ba BUT!! ... one thing at a time (breathe right?). All this took place as I attended to child, C. homework etc ... and trying to be upbeat. Taking time outs in the washroom as I breathed, cried (sometime) self talked, before returning to C.

Cleaning, cooking, laundering, garage/yard work took place during the 'in-between' times. Buying food when it ran out - the 'on foot & carry method'. And then the cycle would start all over again ... All this while enduring hostility from h. - whom I loved and with whom I had to PMA - sometimes not successfully. Back to washroom peeps!!! ("taking time outs in the washroom as I breathed, cried (sometime) self talked, before returning") cry At other times, while the house seemed to fall apart in my growing frustration, it felt like was like the feast / famine analogy. This period was -> one thing after another, but then again, that's how 'it,' life unfolds! The dam breaks. I even managed some "light cement work' as immediate attention was needed! Well, my skill set is certainly developing cool right?

Geez, I continued with survival mode (automatic pilot?), doing what I could while parent napped , then stopping when parent woke, attending to 'whatever' etc, then child from school, supper ... & cycle all over again! How things can creep up on you.

Slumber within a dense fog - you cannot SEE when you sleep and if you should open your eyes, still cannot SEE in the dense fog. Here is the time for using senses - ACUTELY! And carefully finding one's way out of the fog with ALL the senses ... Am still rambling - smirk blush laugh laugh

Recollection - let's go 2 da movies!:
One day I felt as if I was unravelling. Around that time, I could not retain information like before. Recollection was poor including information from DB books, & related suggested reading & all other books that I enjoyed reading for pleasure. Even new instruction books/expressive arts, craft were just 'there' - I couldn't 'absorb' any of it.

I reassured myself - "you're just tired - your body & mind is talking to you, just listen." But I WAS worried in spite of the self talk. I was also very self conscious. This is NOT a good experience (!), and my self assurance obviously wasn't really 'believed' on deeper levels. eek

I thought I'd take an information break and shifted to movies. I didn't know if what I was doing was right, but I wanted my mind to not 'do' so much work. The sights, sounds & colours re: movies were easier.' The movie is 'passive', the movie 'did the work.' I could 'rest' whereas with the books, I had to do the work and my mind had problems grasping & retaining the information. I lost (even more) self confidence during these times & I was uncertain of EVERYTHING. I also listened to music - always a feel good move for me. I have background music as I do the daily mundane & predictable tasks.

Re h, it is possible that this may have led to 'observation mode.' When one is not 'clear' about what to do, it is best to do nothing so as to not exacerbate the sitch. Who needs 'more' while running on empty? Just thinking aloud as I sort' ...

Synopsis:
I have been tired, depressed, poor, &/or cyling among them all while meeting head on with 'my alien,' my old, dear friend, my h who I lost frown - w/ his hostilities erupted all over the home. Fatigue + Survival mode + raging spouse ... There were days I thought if only I cud get THE SPACE to just think (!), HEAR my thoughts, sort myself out ...

25yrsmlc, aj, bf - Thanks re the nudge. I was floating along, in an ailing sitch that should have been better a year later. Your posts have poked me to see that NO good will continue if I remain on this road - I MUST DETOUR at the next intersection.


--------
ps:

today's 2 try

> continue with 25yrsmlc suggestion re h/"mlc". concentrate on bite sizes

> TAW plan BEFORE, even if 'loosely' what might work (for a 2 week - 3 month period). With child but also need ME time.

> To avoid slipping into slumber. - am including online reminders as written ones can get overlooked, lost (!) whenever things start to escalete or accumulate. Can't think of anymore for now -


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

BrightFuture #2569034 05/18/15 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: BrightFuture
Sorry for the high jack again.

BF pls. don't worry re 'highjack' laugh
I love reading your stuff (& others)! Your itemized reply to AJ is helpful too.
Originally Posted By: BrightFuture
Pbetra, I know what you mean about not being detached enough. I’m coming to 3 years post DB, and I still have the moments…

Yup, I hear you. Since I am significantly less emtional re: h on a day to day basis, I thought I pretty much had it under control. Whoa! Now i see that I am still close to the starting point !!
Originally Posted By: BrightFuture
Congratulations on losing the weight! I’ve trying to lose a few LBs, but without success. I do meditation too. It helps. How about friends? Do you any close friends, GFs?

Walking everyday in the beginning helped me & cutting down on (not 'out) carbs frown - I LOVE carbs btw, so it was hard! The metabolism stalls & could easily make you give up - eventually it will 'right' itself with persistence (IF for you, just saying what I did).

Meditation is going well so far & neuroscience is discovering how beneficial this is for us. Had trouble staying focused at one time but that's behind me smile

I do have friends and some encourage me to join them. My life is not always settled so where some are concerned, I have had to keep a safe distance. I am taking 25yrsmlc advice re making friends who do not know sitch.

Will pop over to your thread soon - my eyes are killing me right now!!!
Again, thanks for the highjack!! laugh Appreciate it, p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2569182 05/18/15 08:55 PM
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Ironic.

what a day so far.
I began to try the above for myself. h met me wanted to talk & boy did we have it out. he's angry w/me (living like roomates - well whose fault is that). I guess in his way, he's been trying bu tI've been 'numb' to him. I also feel that the same problems would reoccur.
my 25yrsmlc plan was good before, but then the fight cam eup. To avoid the the urge to 'fall' back, I am venting here.

Also called project head to discuss 1st submission - got the ok, so that was great! Hadn't heard from her & wondered if soemthing was not quite right. A year ago, I woudln't have been able to get past go.

have not exercised though ... & defintiely don't feel like frown .
For my date, I may look at movie with warm cocoa later tonight as I can't leave the house.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2589899 07/20/15 05:57 PM
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Hi there,

been popping by recently but not long enough to stay. Still trying to work out transitioning ... Having an income has certainly helped. Working on new (!!) project although not large - am very grateful! grin

In any event, now that I can think a 'teenie weenie' bit clearer, been trying to prevent some of the things I went through, in terms of security & peace of mind!!

I do not want a repeat of recent events - not just the mlc aspect.
( btw h comes & goes - more on that in a bit ).

preparing for the 'next wave of hardship' smile as this income is a bit 'sporadic'. Not saying that there will hardship, be but preparing.
  • 1st of all, I am saving.
  • I am also aggressively looking for similar projects (esp. since I am less fatigued & can absorb the info. as well as better collate me thoughts)


wondered how can I do this now? But not b 4? re overall improved planning
  • I let go tight grip nf rope
  • am sleeping a little better (although this still needs improvement! All in good time I guess) - am choosing what to worry about at this point & that's not one of them!
  • Try to nap during day when I can (instead of attending to that 'last load of laundry' etc where I was just 'running on automatic.' Taking advantage of school holiday re naps etc. I dont have to help C. w/ homework after school, clohting for school, lunch /snack prep. ...


1st thing I bought with pay check was:
  • vitamins
  • omega 3s
  • milk thistle ( liver impurities can hamper energy, thinking, overall health as you know)
  • natural sleep aid advised to me by helper (who works for doctor)
2 capsules were 2 much initially but it worked - I can get up during night re parent and still (!!!) return to sleep!! cool With the others, I couldn't do that. I do not take every night either, just when really exhausted.
Am not a pill popper. There are too many toxics in food, meds etc & we should all be viligent.


2nd thing I did with paycheck > activities w/child, C!!!

I spent a lot BUT boy oh boy did we have fun, do a lot together!! It was absolutely wonderful, (!!!) all the outings & time spent together.

Had 1 image 'come to me' eek as we passed location I knew h frequented (while on a bus w/C) eek I got lost in the scene as I was looking at, but for only a few secs. followed by a strange sadness & disconnect (?), before discarding the thought. 'Returned to the moment' enjoying the plans w/C. No such reoccurances took place after that one - weird how mind works.


For years, the kids used to come over to play and I started that again for C. The energy & love from these little buggers I find 'disguistingly therapeutic' & they really DO love me. I feel it as they express it openly. Love ignites love - we all benefit. They are even good around parent & vice versa. I bought the instant brownie mixes etc (to make life easy for me re prep. time) Planning a sleep over before school starts - for a few of them. I am sooo excited! (probably more so than they are - 'hilarious'!! laugh


3rd thing I wanted to do w/ with pay check > get clothing:
I didn't get to buy much clolhing. My stuff although tidy, looks a bit worn, old. I did get 2 inexpensive tops 'as starters' smile They are bright & colorful too!

No biggie though, there's always next time. I would rather always spend on EXPERIENCE than 'things' anyway. The clothes look great bu tit is the experience I feel - remember and can recall when I need.

Hope that I continue to get work occasionally. If I don't at least, I got a break from the assault of one thing after another. I often think Im not so special to go through life issue free - but I do NEED to come up for air sometime. Didnt feel that way for a while mad & it was getting to me.


I think I just needed some SPACE & PEACE for a period of time. Some breathing room ya know? Some sleep ...

h / prior to today & my reaction grin grin grin
h spent long periods of time away, got a place (dont think its long term though) Kept coming back & often re: C. H left $$ for C. to enjoy specific summer park events while visiting family for summer ( which was nice).

He continues to be consistently aggressive re pursuit / intimacy when around. All cake eating, entitlement of course. I avoid meeting but with C it is not always possible, & sometimes C wants me there (as not always comfortable w/ h).

I continued to be considtently stubborn in spite of intimidation for intimacy. So many of past (raging) experiences began again ... BUT I didn't cave in this time round even though I was scared - won't lie wink (shh) He is very intimidating & he knows how to be so effectively w/me, but I did not budge from my stance. I used to just give in to 'end it all' avoid the confrontation, restore peace.

Since my last post there was a big impact episode - I didnt care what happened. I stood my ground & went dark after that, didnt give a ' ' ... I stood not for M as in marriage, I stood FOR M - "ME"

Sometimes, I see the sadness on his face - but these events (his) are transient anyway. I know nothing has changed. I feel a bit like the WAS now. Had this happened before, I would have jumped at the chance since he was 'trying'. I think that my timidity must have been annoying for h - but it still doesn't make it right.


stretching boundaries
feel ok, but not completely relaxed as yet. I know i am far from being "out of the woods." Still have rivers to cross, wild animals, danger at night before getting through. Every now & then the thought does frighten me - I don't have experience re these things (but that IS one way to get experience right?!)

fear
What interferes with my (consistent) progress is fear - it's automatic. Got to train the 'good ole amygdala'. Didn't fully realize how beaten down I was ... on some level "sure," but not to the extent (& there's still more fear bubbling up) uh uh shocked

I would like to get some GOOD resources re fear - anyone know of ???
Personal opinion? I have resources from forum re depression, abandonment ... apart from mlc related subjects here, but nothing on fear. Maybe I forgot? I haven't come across here re some of the threads I saved.

Well, 'that's all folks' p.


pbetra
----
M: 15 yrs (in 2014)
BD: 6/03/2014
Infidelity ('known' from July 2014)
Denied PA Feb 2015
2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact.
Back briefly 2017 (after family death)
Separated 2017

pbetra #2589987 07/20/15 10:33 PM
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If you are still looking for resources on fear, I am going to suggest that you do an internet search on the subject. I think you will find what you are looking.

BTW, you need to start a new thread. This one is going to lock very soon.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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