Hi all - "was never in love"

[Mat]

Hi Sandi - thanks for checking in. Came by to read something inspirational before last stretch at work (it's mid-afternoon where I live). I will log back on tonight to try to think about where I'm at and what my next actions are going to be. I've been shooting in all directions with IC, Coaches, this board, the book. I need to find a direction. That's why I appealed to some vets in desperation yesterday!

Talk later - thanks

[labug]

Hi Mat, I've caught up on your thread.

All right. First order of business. What do I love about my wife that makes me want to keep fighting for us?

I'm glad you did this, it's a question I often ask. Sometimes we've grown so far apart in a M/R that we lose sight of why we married our spouse.

Some people want to stay married because of pride, they don't like to be walked away from, what will people think, etc

Some are afraid to be alone.

Some want to stay together because of the children.

Some want to stay together because that was their plan, and we don't like our plans to be messed with.

There are things in her that I admire, perhaps it's because I lack them myself. At the same time, did that make me resent her at times?

1) Unlike me, she does not bend over backwards to please people, and does not walk on eggshells. She can be direct and does not shy away from confrontation. Fear of confrontations is a problem for me; in my relationship, it made me resent her at times and act passive-aggressively. At work, I am 100% sure that it's held me back. I'm confident it's costing me at least £50k a year in terms compensation I could otherwise be getting if I had fulfilled my potential.

Great insight. What are you doing to change that?

I would guess, human nature being what it is that you're like this in all your Rs, so you don't need your W around to work on this.

But in any case, I love her and admire her for it now. It's inspiring, and I should have used the opportunity of our marriage to learn from her.

Do you love her for it, really? I ask because that's a long way to come in a short period of time.

She has reproached me the fact that I walked on eggshells around her. I can see how she would have wished she saw a bit more fight in me. Instead of arguing trivial points, to stand firm. Once I displayed that behaviour and she actually verbalised how much she liiiiked it...

It's not unusual for spouse of depressed partners walk on eggshells. Is that why you did it or are there other reasons?

2) She is playful, cute and funny. Now that I am on my own, I won't lie, I've been observing other women around me more closely. I think I took for granted how W could be so silly, but in a cool and smart way.

3) Beautiful. I miss that face. I wish I could see her only once more sleeping with her fists closed when I come to kiss her before I leave for work.

4) Charisma. People like her; there is a glow around her. I don't know if it's because that detachment makes her seem unattainable.

She sounds like a lovely person but why do you love her? You don't have to answer that here, just think about it. Journal about it on your own. Did you tackle tough problems together, was she able to help you become a better you, are you aware of her inner strength?

Even though she says she was never in love with me, I am convinced that I am the one that didn't properly reflect her feelings. She has a lot of pain from her background, and I think that I lacked the commitment and courage to give her what she needed. It started to annoy me.

Living with a depressed spouse can be annoying, infuriating at times. I was the depressed spouse in my marriage, I know I was infuriating at times.

Her depression may wax and wane. What's different about you now that will make you better able to deal with it?

I'd give anything to turn the clock and get another chance...

Obviously this isn't quite what I'd want to tell her. I only know that I love her for real, and I want to build something brand new with her. We both deserve this.

Was never a religious person, but I think prayer would help at this point...

As Cadet tells everyone in the very beginning, you've been given the gift of time.

And we all read that and promptly forget it. Write in on post-its and put it around the house. Or change all your passwords to be a variation of that so you see it several times every day.

You have self-identified several things you need to work on. Get busy, so when you do have interactions with W, she can't help but see the new you.

Drop any timelines, your changing will be a life-long process.

One thing I see is that you want to be the fixer, you fixed her into a new apartment, you told her what mail to pick-up, you want to write out instructions for her to know how to get repairs done.

Stop.

See her as an adult with her own life to live. If she's all the things you think she is, she can figure it out.

That doesn't mean you act like a jerk if she does ask a question but you don't have to fix her problem right then and there. Be open, talk to her about it, see what she really needs.

I think right now, until you get your feet under you, NC is right where you need to be.

Best of luck.

[Mat]

Hi there,

This is so helpful, thanks a million. I think I am starting to get enough perspective to complement the coaching and counselling, so I can get even more perspective and be more centered. Advice I've been getting elsewhere start to make more sense now that you've tailored it to what I wrote. I think I'm a better reader than listener.

Let me replay some of what you say and see if I can jump off it to more insight. I think it's also a good time to re-read my old stuff as you've done.

Hi Mat, I've caught up on your thread.

Some people want to stay married because of pride, they don't like to be walked away from, what will people think, etc

Some are afraid to be alone.

Some want to stay together because of the children.

Some want to stay together because that was their plan, and we don't like our plans to be messed with.

I have to think long and hard here. Do I want her back just to prove a point, that although she kept saying I don't really love her, I really do? I mean I feel love and hurt in my heart, but is it because she left? I owe it to myself and her to be exactly clear on the new basis for a relationship. To be clear, I still believe what I wrote... But I also feel quite distressed that my Plan is being disturbed!

Do you love her for it, really? I ask because that's a long way to come in a short period of time.

Another one to ponder. I think that more precisely, I miss these things in her. But we miss everything about people we love - so that means I still have to answer the question, why do I love her?

It's not unusual for spouse of depressed partners walk on eggshells. Is that why you did it or are there other reasons?

Mainly not to set her off, and see her suffer. And hear her say things about our relationship that I didn't know how to respond to. And also, to not have the aggravation if I am brutally honest. I thought I was entitled to have a fun Saturday afternoon for instance, and I preferred to keep a lid on things rather than ruin it.

She sounds like a lovely person but why do you love her? You don't have to answer that here, just think about it. Journal about it on your own. Did you tackle tough problems together, was she able to help you become a better you, are you aware of her inner strength?

I do need to think about it. These are things that I love about her. Interesting about helping me become a "better you". I mentioned that in my wedding speech. With time, and the routine, I think that I let my argumentative nature push that aside and didn't accept her help in a way. As for her inner strength, when I think about what she went through I am in awe. That is something that I should have validated a lot more in her. If I have the chance to show that 180, that will be worthwhile in itself no matter what happens to R. And I think that in my life, that would be good as well. I never express admiration for other people. But I do look up to plenty of people for different reasons.

Her depression may wax and wane. What's different about you now that will make you better able to deal with it?

She herself tried to teach me how to deal with it. She would say, often times, that it had nothing to do with me. If I had been smarter, I would have listened to that, and focused on making her loved, validated, listened to, treasured and admired during the smooth moments. She could have taken comforts from that in tough times, maybe. It's not very much but I guess it's the best I have. If we were to get closer together, that would be a major point for discussion before we could embark on a new relationship.

You have self-identified several things you need to work on. Get busy, so when you do have interactions with W, she can't help but see the new you.

Drop any timelines, your changing will be a life-long process.

Yes - I need to go back and summarise in a neat pithy list. I do need to get busy with that and record my progress. It's something to do.

One thing I see is that you want to be the fixer, you fixed her into a new apartment, you told her what mail to pick-up, you want to write out instructions for her to know how to get repairs done.

Stop.

See her as an adult with her own life to live. If she's all the things you think she is, she can figure it out.

That doesn't mean you act like a jerk if she does ask a question but you don't have to fix her problem right then and there. Be open, talk to her about it, see what she really needs.

I am getting better through no merit of my own. She has stepped up to the challenge quite nicely, which is why I don't hear so much from her. I got her her hotel, but she rented her apt, and organised her move herself. I did offer help though, and she didn't take it up - so it's really her that kept me at arm's length. So I won't get the credit for staying out of the way obviously! I think the way around that, if I run into her, is just to validate her if she mentions all the things she managed to do on her own. In fairness, she did rely on me and one of her own goals was to be more independent. I have to admire her determination to better herself and match it.
[/quote]

I think right now, until you get your feet under you, NC is right where you need to be.

Best of luck.

I think you may be right. I've been waiting around rather than working on things. I will list out my goals again, and measure progress. It's really eye-opening of you to mention that there is no timeline to this. Some improvements would have positive impacts on my life in general, including my work. So I should stop waiting for the big payoff and just become better already.

Thanks and watch this space!!!

[sandi2]

I know people like to hear advice from more than one source, but I see where it could become very confusing if you have too many. They aren't all going to be on the same page, which can leave you wondering what direction to take.

[Mat]

Thankfully I am finding ways to reconcile these sources now. But I was very confused for a while... Hoping I'm right in feeling things are getting a bit clearer. There's no getting away from the sadness and the fact that my odds are quite long... But I can only do my best, informed by the best advice!

[Old Dog]

Good to see you back on here Mat. You do seem to be sit down and look rationalise things clearer than some on here, my self included. I have confidence after reading your posts that you'll do all right.

Old Dog xx

[Mat]

Hi all - thanks for the support. I feel a bit bad that I haven't shown up on other threads lately. I think I'll get back to it, especially since I have a bit more clarity so may be able to help out, who knows.

I think it'd be a good habit to track by 180s, publicly and in an accountable manner. It will also help me keep them in mind.

i) STFU, listen and validate.
Thinking about it, I don't have much progress to report. I have been more careful at work not to jump over other people. It's not the whole idea by any stretch. I need to create the occasion. I am a little wary of validating other dudes though, may come across as odd.

ii) Arguing small points, being a smartass
I ought to be getting a lot better at this. I have tons of opportunities to practice; it's a reflex that I need to kill off and it pervades all my interactions; so practicing it at work is just as good as anything. Maybe I'll flag this to my boss as professional development, so I can get feedback from him. You're not always conscious of your bad habits in practice. Goal for this coming week, is whenever I have the urge to contradict someone, play back their point to them first and find something about it to agree with.

iii) Not making her feel attractive
Not there yet!

iv) "Walking on eggshells" - telling her what she wants to hear.
Assertiveness point there. If there weren't so many budget cuts I'd ask for a coach at work. In the meantime I'll ask for help from my IC. Also, I've read some books on the topic. I am making progress at work on this I am pretty sure. Need to track it though. The feeling I need to watch for is apprehension before a conversation, the urge to be passive-aggressive instead of forthright and open.

v) Talking about my feelings
My IC isn't a DB guy. So he keeps checking how I'm feeling about holding out for a reconciliation that will probably never happen. Instead of trying to ram DB down his throat, I have expressed that I don't think any relationship with me in it, in the last 10 years, would have worked out. So the reason I leave the door open is that I could look for someone new, but that wasn't the issue in the first place. My W was and is a perfectly good candidate even today; just need to create a better relationship. So it's not that I am clinging; it's just that I've not identified my W as the problem so until she's decidedly closed to R and the D is signed, I am open to R. He seems to have accepted that; and he wants to work on why I don't think I could have succeeded in any relationships. That's perfectly in line with DB as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway, long preamble to say that I'll work with IC to process feelings better. I believe that it's a keystone aspect of my personality that's made it harder to do the right things for my relationship. In the meantime, I'll also be more vocal about how I feel with the appropriate audiences. This morning, I did signal to a colleague that I was feeling aggravated for no good reason, and I needed to shake it off! Just in a light, chatty way. He said he gets like that on Friday mornings too! Small baby steps. We're not into the deep stuff at all, but it's the discipline I presume.

In terms of GAL, I think I need to catch up with a friend this weekend. Kickboxing and PT are great, but I need to sit down and chat. I'll think of my willing victim and send out a text...

Have a great weekend all!

[labug]

I really like v.

Actually I think they're all good but v is a great foundation to work from.

Keep it up.

[Mat]

Thanks! Will focus on that one. If I get the chance to receive contact I'll try a bit of i and ii. Go easy on the iv initially, as it may appear conflictual given the context.

Wedding anniversary coming up on Thursday. Probably need to think of a text or something. This is where total NC may be a bit overboard?

[Mat]

Yay - was reminded that I was invited to a party tonight! It's a social setting and all, but here's what I want to do:

- I will not tell anyone the detail or sequence of events of the separation. I may say I'm separated, but that's it.
- I will apply my relationship 180s to a social setting. See if that helps my people skills. Problem is, I can easily slip into "life of the party" mode, which can make me a bit boisterous at times. But I will focus on i and ii.
- I will have a good time.
- I will behave so I can be at my most attractive. I won't necessarily flirt, but if there's a single woman there she's going to tell herself "too bad he's going through a separation - I'll keep him in mind".
- Hard, absolute limit is 3 pints, 4 if I get there before 7pm.