Hi all - "was never in love"

[pilot]

Your plan was a good one. Being gone was the good move. She told you she was coming, and had you been there, it could have looked like pursuing. Instead she saw you GAL. Your text was fine. Short and to the point. No point in dressing it up with flowers and perfume.

Keep up the good work.

[Old Dog]

Hi Mat, it was a beautiful day today. I'm glad it was a high day for you. My PMA is faltering slightly but I took the kids to HMS Belfast and that was great. No pub though, but I'll be re-reading bits of DR later.

I've also been looking to do something again but my local clubs (Hastings area) all meet at the wrong time.

I did Kempo Ju Jitsu for a few years in London under Peter Browne until I moved away: I can recommend his lessons. He's in S, SE & E London.

[Mat]

Thanks both! I think it's fair to say that as bad as things are, we're all doing better than Brazil right now. This is going to be another shellacking for them it looks like.

Glad you had a good day odsnt. Your kids are lucky to have a dad to take them to cool places like that. I still remember back in Canada when my dad bribed a cadet (or something similar) to take us on a tour of a military ship that was moored there. It wasn't open to the public! I need to mention this next time I call him.

Man detaching is hard though. I was supposed to go to a club night, but I partly chickened out, and partly figured that I should be out until 2AM with people I don't know yet. There's another meetup in Camden to watch the final on the screen, while bands are playing at a pub. I'll go to that one instead, a bit quieter...

Anyway ignore my ramblings. I'll start journaling more assiduously. Saw a counsellor, no big insights yet, but he may be sceptical of the marriage. I'll go and read up the thread on that.

Have a nice Sunday all

[Old Dog]

Mat, I just went back and read through your thread. I can relate to a lot of what you said, your fears, background and your questions. You are not alone.

One of my questions is also, if I wasn't the greatest at being in touch with my feelings and expressing my love and appreciation before, how can I do it now if it's unwanted and chasing?

[Mat]

I know man. I work with a DB coach, and she's saying that I will want to make some contact in a few weeks and showcase my 180s. But I don't think this will mean expressing too much feeling since that will bring the convo back to the R. I will try to speak to coach again this week and report back. I really need more clarity. I will do my homework, write down goals and 180s, and then start talking about a strategy to showcase.

That's why I am still uneasy about today. If I had happened to be home, maybe we could have had a conversation where I am attentive, and still could have kept it light and ended it early.

I don't think there's too much harm in keeping away for now, but I'll need to clarify what needs to happen in my own case.

Could def use vet input, but will reach out to coach as well.

[Mat]

Thought some more...

I think that there's a danger that we understand what we want to understand when it comes to going dark/not going dark. I need to be wary of looking for "loopholes" in the going dark rule. I think it's important to go back to what it's intended for, and apply it ruthlessly to our own cases. It's so easy to find excuses to reach out, especially when it's for reasons we can justify as "not chasing" (e.g. some mail came in for her), just because it feels good to hear from them and that they are alive.

In my case, not one of her friends has reached out (except for one couple that consider themselves our friends in equal measure), nor her family. Because she doesn't talk to her family often, I don't know if she even told them. So I'm not hearing anything from anyone. Attrition is quite hard. That makes it tempting to come up with spurious reasons to reach out.

So whenever I consider making contact, I have to step back and think of what emotions I have that may make me make the wrong decision.

Today for instance, I went to the cafe for breakfast near our house where I started going regularly when we were still together. I was always joking with my wife that I was wondering when I would be considered a regular there by the owners, and greeted as such. I just liked the idea of being a regular geezer at a greasy spoon. So I used to be funny about it, telling W about signs that I may or may not have attained regular status yet, and we joked about it. And this morning, lo and behold, the owner asked me "your usual staple diet then"? I was shocked!! I really thought about texting her something like "sorry but I had to tell someone: I know I should be more sad than proud, but I'm officially a REGULAR and I don't need to tell them what I want for breakfast anymore!! Best day of my life!" BTW my regular staple is double-egg, bacon, chips and beans. Good thing I only go at weekends. Please no one tell me my 180 should be to switch to natural yogurt and a banana! I eat that during the week already thank you very much.

Well, I didn't text her in the end. First, it's only been a month since she left. She's been in her own apartment for a week and a half now. And it's not THAT funny. There'll be other chances. Even as I write this, I wonder if I'm missing an opportunity to reconnect and it's making me nervous. But I have to trust that my coach, for instance, who expressed ambivalence on the "going dark" method in my case, advised against contacting before a few weeks. We're not there yet.

The point is, if you go back to the DB text, going dark simply means not chasing, not initiating contact. So you don't do that. You don't send the texts unless necessary, you don't call, and you don't accept all invites. Sandi's rules apply. You have to wait until you get an overture, or at least quite a long time. I'll have to go re-read Thornton's thread to refresh my memory and get a sense of the chronology and events when the R started to turn, which may be helpful. Or he may drop by if he can get a break from all the dates and mooching .

odsnt: Where does this leave us, who had trouble showing love and appreciation? And if I confess, in my own case, feeling appreciation at times? I think for me, the first thing is to go back to the books and do the work now, so that I know I can act optimally if and when the chance comes. Can you clearly state the 3 things you love most about your wife, for instance? For a while I couldn't but now I can; I will write it down and you can be sure I'll be ready to tell her as and when it is appropriate. What are our goals? What are our 180s? I don't know how far along you are down that journey, but I am not waiting until I get a signal anymore. I want to do everything I can now to make sure I'm not caught off guard. Next call with my coach, we will spend the hour discussing realistic signals that I may receive that would indicate that things are about to change, and we'll play out the scenarios and what I should do under each.

I'll tell you one area that I struggle with a bit: GAL. Problem is, we were growing apart. While she was here preparing lessons on her computer until 10 at night, and working weekends (dearth of resources provided to teachers in this country are an absolute utter disgrace), I was doing the following:
- My job
- Sitting on the Board of Trustees of a charity
- Personal training Sat mornings, gym on Sunday
- Going to gigs as we live nearish the "hotspot" for good indie club gigs in our city, most often on my own because she doesn't like live music that much
- Occasionally going out with friends

I don't have bandwidth for much else!! I can put more life energy into what I commit to, as I tend to half-ass things (the board duties and the job - though I can't be that bad at the job since they are downsizing I didn't get laid off yet). She did mention I needed to hang out with my own friends more, I've certainly reconnected with a few. I can make new friends, but browsing for groups on meetup.com leave me ambivalent. The ones that seem fun are music and bar-based, and I'm not sure that's good for me. I need to curb drinking, and hanging out in bars is getting old. I don't mind old-man pubs with friends... I don't know I would like to meet new people. I haven't hung out with anyone this weekend, as I don't want to overload the friends I already have.

Am definitely going to join a martial arts club. I'd prefer ju jitsu, but it's a 7pm start and a half hour from my house. Could be hard to pull off...

All right. I have some goals to write down so I'll close this post in case anyone wants to respond.

[Mat]

All right. First order of business. What do I love about my wife that makes me want to keep fighting for us?

There are things in her that I admire, perhaps it's because I lack them myself. At the same time, did that make me resent her at times?

1) Unlike me, she does not bend over backwards to please people, and does not walk on eggshells. She can be direct and does not shy away from confrontation. Fear of confrontations is a problem for me; in my relationship, it made me resent her at times and act passive-aggressively. At work, I am 100% sure that it's held me back. I'm confident it's costing me at least £50k a year in terms compensation I could otherwise be getting if I had fulfilled my potential.

But in any case, I love her and admire her for it now. It's inspiring, and I should have used the opportunity of our marriage to learn from her.

She has reproached me the fact that I walked on eggshells around her. I can see how she would have wished she saw a bit more fight in me. Instead of arguing trivial points, to stand firm. Once I displayed that behaviour and she actually verbalised how much she liiiiked it...

2) She is playful, cute and funny. Now that I am on my own, I won't lie, I've been observing other women around me more closely. I think I took for granted how W could be so silly, but in a cool and smart way.

3) Beautiful. I miss that face. I wish I could see her only once more sleeping with her fists closed when I come to kiss her before I leave for work.

4) Charisma. People like her; there is a glow around her. I don't know if it's because that detachment makes her seem unattainable.

Even though she says she was never in love with me, I am convinced that I am the one that didn't properly reflect her feelings. She has a lot of pain from her background, and I think that I lacked the commitment and courage to give her what she needed. It started to annoy me.

I'd give anything to turn the clock and get another chance...

Obviously this isn't quite what I'd want to tell her. I only know that I love her for real, and I want to build something brand new with her. We both deserve this.

Was never a religious person, but I think prayer would help at this point...

[Maybell]

Mat... I just wanted to drop in & say hi so you know I was here. I'm going to process your post a bit but sometimes it's just nice to know you're not only writing into the ether.

Btw, I'd love to be a regular somewhere. Good for your achieving a goal! Lol.

[Mat]

Btw, I'd love to be a regular somewhere. Good for your achieving a goal! Lol.

...if only it was a trendy organic place I could brag about it too!!!

[Mat]

Right. A few 180s, then I'm going offline to do some stuff. I've ebayed some items, and need to find a spot to get rid of some more junk. As I've mentioned before, I have a lot on my plate. W left me to resolve a freeholder dispute (if you're in the US, "freehold" is an archaic land ownership concept that other civilised former colonies have got rid of for obvious reasons. Imagine a condo board with one voting member, who does not live in the complex, who's only there to profit from the appreciation of the properties and take a cut on the maintenance fees on the sly), and only then can I renovate the apartment. It will be hell. In a weird way I'm excited because it will keep me busy. So I'm trying to clear some stuff now so I don't have to put useless stuff in storage.

Anyway. DB says this about 180s:
1. Describe what you see as the problem
2. Assess how you've been handling the problem thus far
3. Do a 180
4. Assess effect on spouse.

At this point I can only do 1-3, until I can assess the effect on spouse, obviously.

So here goes.

i) A no-brainer; it's even one of Sandi's rules. STFU, listen and validate.
1. The problem is that I did not listen to her enough, and sometimes would respond something inappropriate. Like she would be telling me something that has upset her at work, and I'd ask "so what was the color of her shoes"? Obviously exaggerated so you get my point. Also, I did not appear interested and would drift off during her stories.
2. I have been handling it by denying what I was doing, and being defensive. No prizes for guessing that's made things worse.
3. My 180 will be to carve time to actually listen to her, not jump in with solutions she doesn't want, and admit when I'm not in the mood to listen (and propose an alternative). I've started to do that near the end of the relationship, but didn't follow through with my proposed end of the bargain.

ii) Arguing small points, being a smartass
1. I have been doing that way too much in all areas of my life. It's driven her insane, and made her feel like I didn't think she was smart or had a point.
2. I have been defensive and in denial about it. I also defended this, like arguing is a part of how smart people communicate. When in fact, it only detracts from the real point of the conversation (when you pick apart side details) and make people not want to listen to you at all. It does not help a marriage.
3. When I get the urge to challenge, I'll ask a clarifying question and assume that there is something to learn. How come I can pick up a book and give it the benefit of the doubt, but not my own wife? If I was a genius, I could assume I have nothing to learn from other people, but I am not, and I need to start listening so I can become smarter as opposed to trying to prove to the world that I already am smart.

iii) Not making her feel attractive
1. She does not think I find her attractive, from the way I look at her, and comments that are not meant to be hurtful but that do not make her feel like I desire her.
2. Again, DENIAL. It's true that as her weight has fluctuated, I have been less attracted, but part of it is also the feedback loop of her not feeling attractive. I don't care about a few pounds, but her confidence, the way she dresses, changes also. And this is not down to her. She married a man to be exclusive to; I have to make her feel sexy as well. It's something that two people need to work on. It's one of those "Circular Connections" that's discussed on page 69 in DB (at least my copy, from 1992). But it takes only one to tango, so there's something that I need to do first.
3. When I saw her before I went to the music festival a couple of weeks ago, I did remark on her new jeans that fit her well. I think that was probably too soon and chasing. I will need to let my eyes do the talking. Next time I see her, because I haven't seen her for a while, I know she will look as beautiful as ever. I can keep my mouth shut, but I have to make sure that my eyes do the talking.

iv) "Walking on eggshells" - telling her what she wants to hear.
1. That's a funny one: on the one hand I argue with her and piss her off, on the other, I tell her what she wants to hear to not piss her off. Funny pattern. This is why it's a hard one to put into practice.
2. Again, defensive. Also, protested that I didn't want to be argumentative. Dug my heels and told her that whatever I was saying was what I really felt. And in some cases that was true. But why would she trust that?
3. Be authentic. Reconciliation may fail because of that. I will have to admit to things that she won't like. And she will have to trust that there is still a basis to rebuild a new relationship. That one is a bit abstract. I don't know how it will be in practice.

V) Talking about my feelings
1. This is another twist on being authentic. She has noticed that I bottle up everything inside, to the point of making myself sick. Especially stress. In fact, when she started her EA (or right before, but it was the inception of the infatuation), and I talked about how her spending time with him bothered me, she gave me a hug because it was the first time I had a sincere talk about my feelings. Then she went to see him anyway, mind you.
2. I haven't done much on this one. I did raise my hand and admit it. It's hard for me to unbottle without breaking down or crying, and I am scared this will happen.
3. Accept that I will be vulnerable in front of my wife, and embrace that. In my final plea, the day after the affair was discovered, I really did cry but really, did not convince her of how I felt. She thinks I don't really love her, and I am still not realising that I am better off without her. I am also in counselling, and my stated goal is to process and express my feelings. I need to act in tune with myself and what's inside.

This will be hard to do in practice. I probably need one of a few more passes to make these a lot more concrete and practical. Pervasive thing is authenticity, and not acting defensive. I need to evidence sincerity and not be afraid to truly speak up for myself.

Bit exhausted. I'll try to post more regularly from now on! Coaching session to be schedule, and counselling on Tuesday. Bring it on!