Hi all - "was never in love"

[Mat]

Hi Bashy - it's taken straight from the book, so I am trying to figure it out too! If you look at the discussion maybe we're getting somewhere. If I have any more insights I'll post them here.

[bashy]

Please do mat. We all need as much help as possible.

[Mat]

Wow - 4th page started. Thanks so far to everyone that replied. I don't call out every single person's name, but each message has given me something very valuable and helpful.

So I've been reading DR, and I think I've been procrastinating on taking my actual actions. More precisely, my goals, and 180s. Damn shame since I did so well initially, sitting through the seminar that I downloaded and making notes, thoughts, etc.

I think what's happening is that it's easy for me to watch and listen something, and pay attention, but looking at myself and asking the hard questions is another matter entirely. Is it fear? - that would be a popular view on a board like this. Could be that I'm a lazy POS. In school I barely read the text, and almost never did all the problems at the end of the chapter.

I guess this long preamble is just more procrastination.

So I'll start with some goals.

One huge thing that I need to change is to be able to communicate my emotions clearly, sincerely and calmly. This means, for instance:
- Expressing dissatisfaction with how I am managed at work, without feeling like I'm about to well up
- Talk to friends about what I appreciate about them. Be able to say something genuinely nice, without feeling weird and making it sound like a joke

The reason I am choosing these is because I have been cut off from my emotions my whole life, and it's been getting in the way of everything. I believe it's because of my upbringing, as my mom, and dad to a slightly lesser extent, is like that. My sister revealed to me that she went to a counsellor before her third child as she had a panic over raising them in the same environment that she was raised.

Anyway, it has been quite an impediment to my happiness - and my wife's. Not being able to express emotions means that I don't even express gratefulness to friends. I can't believe I have such good friends. And of course, there's my wife. I don't see how we could have possibly connected.

If I take it back up one level, it's about processing emotions as well. I actually dread people expressing their emotions to me. I don't know what to deal with this stuff.

Thinking about emotions even feels like a chore. I shy away from looking inward and confronting hard questions. But it's not just emotions - I'm stuck in the same job for 10 years, for instance, in spite of having disliked it from year one. I lived in 3 different countries, all the moves organised on my own, put myself through a 40-grand graduate degree. And then all of a sudden I get stuck in this job, and get married. It's like I got married after I did the exciting stuff - no wonder she got bored with me.

Well, this started out intending to be structured but quickly veered off into a stream of consciousness. Hopefully I'll get to discuss this with the counsellor and put some structure around this whole thing. But I'll go to bed for now and try again tomorrow. This time I won't put it off until 9pm, that should help.

Thanks for reading...

[Mat]

Weird interaction by text tonight. Not sure if I handled it right... As I mentioned W is taking her stuff on saturday, and she's moving to the apt that she just rented. I think she already got the keys and moved in though; today I got a text that said "hi. Went by flat to get sheets. Took white drying rack. Hope that's ok?"

So I thought I'd reply someone detached and cool. I was a bit rushed though. This is what this genius came up with: "Yes there's a lot of crap I'm gonna throw away so grab wha you can now :)"

I guess I figured that given the context that she's going to take her stuff on Saturday anyway, and I'm a bit of a hoarder by nature, that it would accomplish a bit of a 180, and show independence and my ability and willingness to move forward. But I'm worried that it might have come across harsh. Like take whatever junk you like I don't give a crap anymore. Maybe I'm driving myself crazy but any impressions in a couple of lines would be useful.

Today my work insurance matched me with a therapist/counsellor. I am really excited he seems great. At first I was put off that he was a man. I guess my comfort zone would have been a woman, but thinking on it I think I always had a preference for complaining to women and a craving for their comfort because I was seeking the king of mothering that I didn't get growing up. It will be good to process my stuff with a man I think. It's not a relationship, it's a professional therapeutic setting, but it is sort of consistent with the teachings in No More Mr Nice Guy.

Another goal / 180 identified today: stop feeling like I have to argue every point. That did drive her nuts, but it's also and mostly tedious for me and everyone else. What validation am I seeking and expecting from others by looking for every damn counterpoint? I was quite hard on my mom with that, and the eat of my family for that matter. I will identify the trigger before I need to say "yes but" and replace it with validation, and see what happens. Just as an experiment...

I do need to come up with more. I want to have a full list to discuss with coach on Friday night.

[Mat]

Question - how do you handle W' family members if they reach out? I don't want to cling through them, neither do I want to be insensitive. We also have her friends that she brought into the relationship. She says she has started to disclose, slowly.

On the one hand, she said that she felt pressure from her friends and family to marry me. So, although I don't think they would pressure her into fixing the marriage, I am not sure I want them as strong advocates.

But I don't want them as detractors and validators of her decision to go either!

For context, she has a LOT of siblings. They needed a small bus to get around as a family, and that wasn't enough for all of them at one time.

Any experiences / best practices to share on how to interact with WAW's family and friends if they reach out?

[Anders]

Question - how do you handle W' family members if they reach out?

Any experiences/best practices to share on how to interact with WAW's family and friends if they reach out?

A good question but a tough one. Some of the advice I received for my situation:
-Do respond with gratitude (follow the 'become the person only a fool would leave' philosophy). The fact they are reaching out to you indicates that they care (assume the best of intentions).
-In your interactions with them always be respectful and kind.
-Don't use them to influence the situation and outcome.
-Don't probe them for dirt/info. on W.
-Don't bad mouth your W, especially to her family.
-Don't lie or cover things up to 'protect' your W.
-If they do probe about the R, be honest about your position and what you want for the R but don't whine about it (I find using the validation lines: "I can see how she feels this way..." helpful for my situation)
-It is okay to feel nervous about these interactions.

[Mat]

Wow db - for a tough question you sure have a great answer! I'll certainly take that. I mean it's all common sense really. But it's all in the execution isn't it.

In spite of the best advice, there's a chance I won't be able to avoid interacting with common friends. I think that in applying your advice, my attitude will need to convey "I'll be OK". If it's in a social event setting I'll have to enjoy myself no matter what.

The two things I absolutely need to resist doing is probe for info, and make a snide remark about her on the "christian" guy that she was hanging out with before I caught her.

Advice on not covering up anything is interesting. I wouldn't want to volunteer anything negative about her, but yes I suppose that adding lies on top of the situation is much worse.

Really good stuff. Thanks so much!

[Anders]

Question -

How does this article, which I also saw in DR,

http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htm

...fit with detachment and LRT? This doesn't make sense to me. Having read this early on, I made a point of telling my wife that I would be a friend to her and helpful at all times. But this doesn't ring right anymore at all.

Mat, 'Detaching' confused the heck out of me. I will defer to the veterans' wisdom but here is my take on this today (and one which I am still struggling to put into practice):

Detaching does not mean you stop loving your W. It means letting go of your expectations of her and her actions. You stop letting her behavior/words to dictate how you feel and how you react. But not how you feel about her.

No expectations of the outcome, just letting go.

But not giving up.

Detaching for me also extends to my 'feelings' and something you allude to here in your thread. I am learning, in a very difficult way, about the difference between detaching from my feelings and disconnecting from them (for me running away).

Feelings can be deceptive. We see many success stories here where WAS felt like they never loved LBS and could not see that changing ever. And then those feelings changed.

There are many times I feel like giving up on this DB path after taking a nice long swim in my self pity pool party. But after a good night's rest, very glad that I didn't react.

Detaching will help you focus on your own growth (which includes GAL) while sticking on the DB journey. Helping you to ride out the inevitable wave of feelings: both hers AND yours.

[Anders]

Thanks Mat. I wish I could take credit for the advice but it is all from this board and from the many wise people here.

Nathan

[Mat]

Well, so happy 4th to all the wonderful American members of this board. Hope you managed to organise yourself a good celebration with people that care about you.

So, feeling odd today. Was feeling really down earlier this morning as my wife is coming to sort through her stuff and remove/throw away hers. I won't be there for that, and I have no friends to go hang out with until late afternoon. Still, I'm bracing for quite a shock.

But then, as I was looking for some place to be, I booked myself tickets for an exhibit at the British library and kind of became giddy with excitement about my new found freedom, and daydreaming of a better future. Unfortunately some of these dreams feature reconciliation. I'm concerned about swings like that.

I think it was driven by an easy morning at work, finding an activity to do by myself that I know I will enjoy, knowledge that I will see friends on Saturday AND Sunday...

BTW, hope you don't 2x4 me, but one of them is the partner of a wife's former colleague. So common friends. I've thought about it, and I cannot just afford to lose even one good buddy (and he's top tier) just in case this results in me being "attached" by proxy, and still achieve GAL. Something has to give.

I have been visualising in my own mind what I will say about the relationship, have got the 37 rules as well as db's take for friends and families down pat. I will be sure to make it absolutely clear that it'll be OK no matter what, no matter whom with.

And I'll do one of my 180s; I am going to ask questions, listen, not interrupt, and not argue. It's time I start appreciating others better and learning from them.

Still giddy. Ah well.