It sounds to me that your saying is that everything truly is all my fault?
I don't understand your questioning. I was just stating the past events that W brought up after the bomb drop plus a few of my thought patterns. I do take my faults upon myself and am getting help. I have sought IC and support groups in the past and now. I have gotten better from past help too which is why I'm not in much of those states anymore. She has brought up stuff from way back was my point. Much of this I have worked on and still do today.
I guess after reading your critique I should not try to save my marriage; I see that now.
For the sake of trying to fix myself, I'll try to answer some of these questions.
*I don't understand myself why I asked those questions. Insecurity I suppose.
*After first A we sought couples and individual counsel from the pastor at the church. A few months later we attended a weekend marriage seminar. After that it was swept under the rug.
*For what it's worth, she brought some videos to bed too. For those with a problem, that's like giving a drink to a non practicing alcoholic. Yes, I see where I could have used some boundaries here but didn't.
*We have been attending church weekly since A#1 with few exceptions. Still do.
*Never forced. Coerced probably.
*All discussions have stopped since she moved out a month ago. There had been a few passing talks but no real communication.
*Self loathing and guilt let to both suicide thoughts. I should not have used the word attempt as I never put into action my thoughts. We did talk about my getting checked out at the hospital one day but she said she would not hold it against me in the divorce or with the kids if I signed something saying her leaving was not abandoning the kids. I decided no to go. After she moved out, I was able to get at least 4-5 hours of sleep per night and not the 2 hours each night that I had been getting for weeks. This stopped thoughts of suicide.
*To clear the air about the niece; W never knew about my uncomfort until she said the stuff about "if we had girls". It brought back a memory I had long forgotten. I would rough-house with the kids at family parties. This one older niece would always want to join in. It made me uncomfortable because she was older and developing. I put a lot of distance between her and I since. After I got more of a handle on my addiction I allowed a little more closeness as I no longer had any fear of my actions. This was after attending church and choosing for follow the teachings.
I am trying to learn that her actions and thoughts are not my responsibility. She had blamed me for her unhappiness and the affair which I understand is typical WAW stuff. With help from friends, pastor and IC plus the reading I'm doing is helping though slowly.
It sounds to me that your saying is that everything truly is all my fault? Is that really how it sounds to you? I'm very precise with my wording. =
WHERE did I say "it's all your fault"?
Here is what happened & you can simply read my post again to confirm....When you described a flawed behavior or mistake YOU made, with your explanations attached, you'd then said things like "I blame myself for that flaw".
I think a better phrase would be "I see it as a flaw & I am taking responsibility for it now". And of course, that IS YOUR JOB. Who else should be responsible for your suicide attempts? Who else should be responsible for your porn issues? They are your issues. You need tools to resolve them; b/c my gut says they are clearly still problematic.
Own your mistakes and move on. But "owning" a mistake or bad behavior means, by definition, that you are working to STOP that mistake from being repeated.
Blaming others for your choices will get you nowhere and it's not adult behavior.
I don't understand your questioning. I asked you many questions based on your post, which I went thru line by line. What questions do you not understand?
I was just stating the past events that W brought up after the bomb drop plus a few of my thought patterns. I do take my faults upon myself and am getting help. I have sought IC and support groups in the past and now. "I do take my faults upon myself"...well, yes, we should all work on our faults if we really think they are faults....and it's OUR WORK TO DO
Your job, is working on your flaws/your life. My question about "who else would you blame?" is meant to show you that hey, these are YOURS TO HANDLE so, I guess it's not exactly heroic to say "I have these flaws and they are mine to work on..." It's just reality; they're yours to work on so YOU have to do that work.
It's the start of adult behavior in which you see a problem in how you acted or spoke, realize it's NOT okay, and then YOU work to change it asap. That's what healthy adults do. You did not see that growing up and one question I like to ask folks here is "How was forgiveness modeled in your childhood? What did it look like?
How were conflicts resolved or worked out, in your family while you were growing up? My guess is NOT well.
So you have to get the tools for conflict resolution and better communication, despite what you grew up with. You must break the cycle!
My dad was a raging alcoholic for years, and he had several college degrees...YES it affected me. So in my last 20s when I became a lawyer and mother the same summer, I began to seek out therapists.
I got some tools for handling things better, b/c I had NOT seen that growing up. I didn't get those tools back then, so I had to learn it, just like I had to learn "HOW" to forgive. The workshops are like years of therapy like to rant
I'm glad you are getting help. I can't abide by violence anywhere in a marriage, although you were also rough with her physically even while dating. That's a red flag, btw. So that has been a long standing problem. Which means some part of her must have had low self esteem to marry a guy who'd been physical with her, at all.
And please don't instantly add that "SHE IS VIOLENT TOO" or "we both are controlling/aggressive/violent b/c that is petty sounding (like a child saying 'she hit me first')..AND it's not relevant now. SHE is not here trying to save the m, you are. So who cares what SHE did? We only care about the person here, working on himself. Besides, her hitting you first is actually NOT a defense. Unless you restrained her b/c she is bigger/stronger than you and you feared for your life, (in which case you LEAVE the home and take the kids with you to protect them)
but you do NOT hit back or shove, push, kick, or throw things. Aside from looking like a tantrum, throwing things is frightening and you seem to have had that as your goal--"Scare'intimidate her". It's NOT EVER acceptable. And if you don't believe that was your goal, then what was? Not "the explanation" for it, but the goal of throwing things at or near her or in ways she could hear or see. WHAT were you hoping would then happen?
Leave the home if you fear you'll hit or touch or assault her in any way (Unwanted physical touch IS assault & battery, btw). I don't know anyone in an abusive relationship anymore, b/c of the few friends I had who faced that issue, every single one of them is divorced now.
I shudder to think of your son's views of marriage & their mom, with the letters they wrote and your reaction...they really blame HER for everything abad that doest NOT HELP YOU. Trying to shame her (which was the underlying goal in your son's letters to her, & I suspect your goals in recent communications with her),
but the condemnations and shaming attempts will fail.
They'll corner her, which is bad for the marriage, ever, let alone at a time like now... When you or your sons challenge her choices that much, you forced her to defend those choices (instead of giving her the space to evaluate the choices, and instead of changing yourself so that while she was examining if maybe she had rushed into the A/divorce, she was cornered and condemned...That means she's MORE LIKELY to follow thru the divorce...
Back to the outbursts and throwing things...my h threw something once when he was in his final exams for med school. A vase, and he did NOT throw it at me but he broke it when he hit the wall. True, he was very sleep deprived & stressed and his own dad was a violent man. So what? I was not going to have that in my adult life; as I"d had enough crazy in my childhood.
And the thing is, I Knew sleep deprivation would happen again. What was going to be different? (BTW We had no kids then.)
when he threw the vase in frustration and it broke against the wall, he immediately said it was "not aimed" at me. (Well, thank God, but so what? It still meant he was out of control. FYI, I have never done that to any object, in my LIFE. I grew up with it, but I sure did not repeat that cycle. It can be broken.
So i left & checked into a hotel. I would not come home if I had to witness that type of "out of control behavior again, ever". Also we sought counseling. That was 33 years ago. He's never repeated that behavior.
SO TO ME, the fact that we both took it seriously and we both went to IC and together and it never happened again, is what it means to "own our flaws" or "take the blame". (Since blame implies shame for many, you may want to say "own mistakes" b/c it's more empowering and more accurate b/c hey, they are yours to own and no one else can fix you. NO one else broke you.
And you cannot fix your wife, either.
Understand that when you threw things in anger, in effect, you are telling your family that you are NOT IN CONTROL OF YOURSELF...and that's frightening.
You are the man who is supposed to protect her/family, so that must have been traumatic for her.
I am not defending her affair. I AM NOT. I am redirecting your thoughts b/c you continue to harp about HER and almost nothing else, (except for the OM) I want to hear a lot more about you, and the work you are doing on YOURSELF & YOUR LIFE.. Your 180s and your GAL, etc.
I know you grew up with a horrible example of marriage & partnership (and so did your mother), but hey, so did I. That's why we (h and me) attend workshops and read self help materials, attend support groups and or church, get counseling and sometimes seek medical help too.
That's the work we do to "own" our flaws.
In your post it sounded to me as if You went thru a long litany of the past, way past issues and so, I'm reframing them for you.
I am doing that b/c I'm trying to speed up your work, b/c it's taking too long. WHY DO I SAY THAT?
Most of your problems are pretty habitual, some going on decades. That's a long time to be working on faults you still have (though you say they are better- and that's good)...SO you say that you are "working on them". My post was to increase your motivation in that area. A nudge to "hurry it up", if you will.
I have gotten better from past help too which is why I'm not in much of those states anymore. She has brought up stuff from way back was my point. Much of this I have worked on and still do today. I guess after reading your critique I should not try to save my marriage; I see that now. Seriously?
You are either being manipulative or you completely misread my feedback.
It's as if you are saying that any feedback that holds you accountable, is just too hard for you.... and so you want to stop trying and you now think you should give up? I did not say to give up on the marriage.
I SAID TO WORK ON YOU, bc that is the only way you will ever have a real marriage again, with anyone. And you have a lot of work to do. You have suicide attempts and violence and self loathing running rampant in your history. You now say you are in active counseling but I did not get that clearly from you as happening presently...I felt you were saying the porn and the temper and cricitisms and anger problems were "worked on" and "better mostly" but not that you were putting your energy into them nearly as much as you are focussed on your wife. Work on you. Div Busting is mostly about saving ourselves from ourselves and our own bad choices, (= working on our flaws!! to become the best people WE can become)
and when we save ourselves, we sometimes find our relationships are saved too. As I read your answers below, I'm getting confused. That's why I highlight my words and bold print whatever you wrote that I'm addressing. Maybe you can try that sometime so I can recall which question you're answering...I asked a lot.
For the sake of trying to fix myself, I'll try to answer some of these questions.
*I don't understand myself why I asked those questions. Insecurity I suppose. not sure which questions you are referring to...the questions about her past sex life??
*After first A we sought couples and individual counsel from the pastor at the church. A few months later we attended a weekend marriage seminar. After that it was swept under the rug. So you felt better for that weekend but did not IMPLEMENT the TOOLS THEY GAVE YOU? That's my guess b/c those weekends usually offer some methods of coping with recurrent problems, so the problems get better and love is restored.
*For what it's worth, she brought some videos to bed too. For those with a problem, that's like giving a drink to a non practicing alcoholic. Yes, I see where I could have used some boundaries here but didn't.
*We have been attending church weekly since A#1 with few exceptions. Still do. *Never forced. Coerced probably.
"Probably"??...
You wrote that you felt guilty about doing things in bed which she did not want to do. Obvoiusly you knew she did not want to do them, or you would not have done them, and then you felt guilty...
So, WHY did you feel guilty afterwards, unless you pressured or coerced her? Come on now...no editing your responses See, I'm trying to get you to be fully HONEST, with at least yourself. You tend to gloss over what you did in the past. That may hurt you less in the moment, but in the long run, it keeps you from really taking responsibility for a flaw
(b/c really taking responsibility, always always means, getting rid of that flaw)
Normally I don't think digging thru the past helps us ---UNLESS we are repeating a pattern. I fear you might be, which is the pattern of saying "I already said sorry/made amends" and then thinking no harm was done by you, or an apology had "undone" the pain you caused.
Yes you use a microscope on HER mistakes, and magnifying the harm she does, and not moving past it.
Don't give yourself so many passes, if you won't give her any.
*All discussions have stopped since she moved out a month ago. There had been a few passing talks but no real communication. GOOD^^^. No R talk. You have read the newbie rules that sandi assembled, right? So you know NOT to bring up any R talk and do NOT mention the OM. At all...
*Self loathing and guilt let to both suicide thoughts. I should not have used the word attempt as I never put into action my thoughts. You specifically said things like "suicide attempt #1" and "led to 2nd suicide attempt"
and I THINK you said you were in the hospital and something about how you were checked out once they felt you were no longer a threat to yourself....
You were THINKING of suicide... and then .... You told her?
What was the goal or hope you had, in telling her and not someone else? Was it So that She'd feel "needed"? (FWIW, I don't think that is what was missing from the marriage for her, do you? OR to guilt her into staying with you, or what?
I know it's hard to face these things, but sweeping them under the rug does NOT improve anything for anyone.
We did talk about my getting checked out at the hospital one day but she said she would not hold it against me in the divorce or with the kids if I signed something saying her leaving was not abandoning the kids. I'm confused. What does YOU getting checked out for psychological problems, (e.g. severe depression/suicidal thoughts/attempts??) have to do with a claim that she didn't abandon the family? That's not me criticizing, it's me asking.
I decided no to go. After she moved out, I was able to get at least 4-5 hours of sleep per night and not the 2 hours each night that I had been getting for weeks. This stopped thoughts of suicide.
*To clear the air about the niece; W never knew about my uncomfort until she said the stuff about "if we had girls". It brought back a memory I had long forgotten.
I would rough-house with the kids at family parties. This one older niece would always want to join in. It made me uncomfortable because she was older and developing. I put a lot of distance between her and I since. Have you sought out counseling for these urges? I used to work w/men who had those urges and were in jail. It's good to put distance between you two, but depending on her age, you may need to seek out a T to really target this problem. After I got more of a handle on my addiction What "addiction"??? Oh, the Porn addiction?
Okay just to clarify --When you use the term "addiction" and THEN say you "got more of a handle on...", it concerns me b/c 12 step programs do not discuss addictions and then say he's "getting a handle" like that.
They don't tell alcoholics, "drink LESS"; they say "do not drink, b/c you are powerless over alcohol" "one drink is too many and a thousand is never enough"... They say "Do NOT do X", period. Understand?
I allowed a little more closeness as I no longer had any fear of my actions. This was after attending church and choosing for follow the teachings. I am trying to learn that her actions and thoughts are not my responsibility. She had blamed me for her unhappiness and the affair which I understand is typical WAW stuff. With help from friends, pastor and IC plus the reading I'm doing is helping though slowly.
Gosh yes I hope you learn that lesson soon. It's hard to let go of what we cannot control but it's harder in the long run, to keep holding onto things we CANNOT control! Such a waste when you think of it, and it also hurts people when they witness that.
Remember, she's the state of "Iowa" and you are not. You are in charge of your own South Carolina. What goes on in her state is her business and what goes on in your state is ONLY your business.
SHE is not responsible for how you feel or think and YOU are NOT responsible for how SHE feels or thinks. Just stay in your sandbox and take care of you and your kids.
Back way off and try not to embellish or magnify things she does that hurt or annoy. It gives away all your power.
Make sense? It's quite late now and I'm rambling, so on that note, Good luck!
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
It sounds to me that your saying is that everything truly is all my fault? Is that really how it sounds to you? I'm very precise with my wording. =
WHERE did I say "it's all your fault"? [color:#FF0000]You did not say it; that's how I perceived it.
Here is what happened & you can simply read my post again to confirm....When you described a flawed behavior or mistake YOU made, with your explanations attached, you'd then said things like "I blame myself for that flaw".
I think a better phrase would be "I see it as a flaw & I am taking responsibility for it now". And of course, that IS YOUR JOB. Who else should be responsible for your suicide attempts? Who else should be responsible for your porn issues? They are your issues. You need tools to resolve them; b/c my gut says they are clearly still problematic.
Own your mistakes and move on. But "owning" a mistake or bad behavior means, by definition, that you are working to STOP that mistake from being repeated.
Blaming others for your choices will get you nowhere and it's not adult behavior. [/color]
Sorry for using the wrong words. I never claimed to be well educated or eloquent in my speaking. What you said is what I meant. I own my faults and had before and am now seeking to correct them. I don't understand your questioning. I asked you many questions based on your post, which I went thru line by line. What questions do you not understand?
I was just stating the past events that W brought up after the bomb drop plus a few of my thought patterns. I do take my faults upon myself and am getting help. I have sought IC and support groups in the past and now. "I do take my faults upon myself"...well, yes, we should all work on our faults if we really think they are faults....and it's OUR WORK TO DO
Your job, is working on your flaws/your life. My question about "who else would you blame?" is meant to show you that hey, these are YOURS TO HANDLE so, I guess it's not exactly heroic to say "I have these flaws and they are mine to work on..." It's just reality; they're yours to work on so YOU have to do that work. [color:#FF0000]No one else is to blame. That's what I was trying to say.
It's the start of adult behavior in which you see a problem in how you acted or spoke, realize it's NOT okay, and then YOU work to change it asap. That's what healthy adults do. And that's what I have been doing. If I see or if I'm told there is a problem I don't see, I try to get help to fix it. When I don't see it and am not told, I don't know to fix the problem. You did not see that growing up and one question I like to ask folks here is "How was forgiveness modeled in your childhood? What did it look like? Mom was a doormat. That's all saw.
How were conflicts resolved or worked out, in your family while you were growing up? My guess is NOT well. Lots of yelling and hitting. Lot's of drinking. Lot's of EA and PA.
So you have to get the tools for conflict resolution and better communication, despite what you grew up with. You must break the cycle! I agree.
My dad was a raging alcoholic for years, and he had several college degrees...YES it affected me. So in my last 20s when I became a lawyer and mother the same summer, I began to seek out therapists.
I got some tools for handling things better, b/c I had NOT seen that growing up. I didn't get those tools back then, so I had to learn it, just like I had to learn "HOW" to forgive. The workshops are like years of therapy like to rant
I'm glad you are getting help. I can't abide by violence anywhere in a marriage, although you were also rough with her physically even while dating. NO!!! I was never violent. EVER! We has sex before marriage. That's a red flag, btw. So that has been a long standing problem. NO!! I never struck her! I never hurt her physically. EVER! Which means some part of her must have had low self esteem to marry a guy who'd been physical with her, at all.
And please don't instantly add that "SHE IS VIOLENT TOO" or "we both are controlling/aggressive/violent b/c that is petty sounding (like a child saying 'she hit me first')..AND it's not relevant now. SHE is not here trying to save the m, you are. So who cares what SHE did? We only care about the person here, working on himself. Besides, her hitting you first is actually NOT a defense. Unless you restrained her b/c she is bigger/stronger than you and you feared for your life, (in which case you LEAVE the home and take the kids with you to protect them)
but you do NOT hit back or shove, push, kick, or throw things. Nevr did any of this. Sure when working in the garage or in the yard I got angry and threw a tool, but never at anyone. Aside from looking like a tantrum, throwing things is frightening and you seem to have had that as your goal--"Scare'intimidate her". It's NOT EVER acceptable. And if you don't believe that was your goal, then what was? Not "the explanation" for it, but the goal of throwing things at or near her or in ways she could hear or see. WHAT were you hoping would then happen? Again this is NOT me at all! Before A#1 WE would yell at each other. I have yelled at the kids when misbehaving. She CLAIMED (A Fog) that my boys were afraid of me but that's only because I yell. I have not hit either one or their mother. As I said I did slap my older son years ago for back talking and making a scene. I make the bigger mistake that I will always be sorry for.
Leave the home if you fear you'll hit or touch or assault her in any way (Unwanted physical touch IS assault & battery, btw). She's not here anyway and again just to be clear I have never nor will I ever hit someone! Not even the OM whom I hate. I don't know anyone in an abusive relationship anymore, b/c of the few friends I had who faced that issue, every single one of them is divorced now.
I shudder to think of your son's views of marriage & their mom, with the letters they wrote and your reaction...they really blame HER for everything abad that doest NOT HELP YOU. Trying to shame her (which was the underlying goal in your son's letters to her, & I suspect your goals in recent communications with her),
but the condemnations and shaming attempts will fail.Who are you talking about? They have rarely seen us fight or argue. I have NEVER blamed her for ANYTHING. My S16 knows of the affair and knows that's why she moved out. I also explained that I believed his mother was a good person inside that made an adult mistake she couldn't get out of. I told him that she loved him and that I loved her. I told him that I was doing all I knew how to fix this issue. I have NEVER shamed her in front of the boys nor even with the family. I always added that I took responsibility for much of the marriages deterioration.
They'll corner her, which is bad for the marriage, ever, let alone at a time like now... When you or your sons challenge her choices that much, you forced her to defend those choices (instead of giving her the space to evaluate the choices, and instead of changing yourself so that while she was examining if maybe she had rushed into the A/divorce, she was cornered and condemned...That means she's MORE LIKELY to follow thru the divorce... They will not do that. I will not allow it.
Back to the outbursts and throwing things...my h threw something once when he was in his final exams for med school. A vase, and he did NOT throw it at me but he broke it when he hit the wall. True, he was very sleep deprived & stressed and his own dad was a violent man. So what? I was not going to have that in my adult life; as I"d had enough crazy in my childhood. Yes that was wrong when I did that. I have never thrown something when others were around to see it.
And the thing is, I Knew sleep deprivation would happen again. What was going to be different? (BTW We had no kids then.)
when he threw the vase in frustration and it broke against the wall, he immediately said it was "not aimed" at me. (Well, thank God, but so what? It still meant he was out of control. FYI, I have never done that to any object, in my LIFE. I grew up with it, but I sure did not repeat that cycle. It can be broken.
So i left & checked into a hotel. I would not come home if I had to witness that type of "out of control behavior again, ever". Also we sought counseling. That was 33 years ago. He's never repeated that behavior.
SO TO ME, the fact that we both took it seriously and we both went to IC and together and it never happened again, is what it means to "own our flaws" or "take the blame". (Since blame implies shame for many, you may want to say "own mistakes" b/c it's more empowering and more accurate b/c hey, they are yours to own and no one else can fix you. NO one else broke you.
And you cannot fix your wife, either. Yes I know this. I also and not convince her of any mistakes or wrong doing. She must do that on her own... if ever.
Understand that when you threw things in anger, in effect, you are telling your family that you are NOT IN CONTROL OF YOURSELF...and that's frightening. Yes, you are correct.
You are the man who is supposed to protect her/family, so that must have been traumatic for her.
I am not defending her affair. I AM NOT. I am redirecting your thoughts b/c you continue to harp about HER and almost nothing else, (except for the OM) I want to hear a lot more about you, and the work you are doing on YOURSELF & YOUR LIFE.. Your 180s and your GAL, etc. In a nut shell... Seeing a Christian based IC. Speaking with our pastor on a regular basis. Getting support from several friends, family and church elders. None are afraid to tell me when I'm wrong. Started reading Boundaries until DB showed up. Also rereading Every Man's battle. Attending a DivorceCare support group. Enrolled in a men's small group at church for Porn addiction (again)
I know you grew up with a horrible example of marriage & partnership (and so did your mother), but hey, so did I. That's why we (h and me) attend workshops and read self help materials, attend support groups and or church, get counseling and sometimes seek medical help too.
That's the work we do to "own" our flaws.
In your post it sounded to me as if You went thru a long litany of the past, way past issues and so, I'm reframing them for you.
I am doing that b/c I'm trying to speed up your work, b/c it's taking too long. WHY DO I SAY THAT?
Most of your problems are pretty habitual, some going on decades. That's a long time to be working on faults you still have (though you say they are better- and that's good)...SO you say that you are "working on them". My post was to increase your motivation in that area. A nudge to "hurry it up", if you will. [/color] Going as fast as my support network takes me I have gotten better from past help too which is why I'm not in much of those states anymore. She has brought up stuff from way back was my point. Much of this I have worked on and still do today. I guess after reading your critique I should not try to save my marriage; I see that now. Seriously?
You are either being manipulative or you completely misread my feedback. [color:#FF0000]Certainly don't mean to be manipulative. I am trying my best to read and hear comments and critique objectively.
It's as if you are saying that any feedback that holds you accountable, is just too hard for you.... and so you want to stop trying and you now think you should give up? I did not say to give up on the marriage. I admit that it is very hard for me to hear. I don't want the problems in my life to be my fault but a whole lot of them are just that.
I SAID TO WORK ON YOU, bc that is the only way you will ever have a real marriage again, with anyone. And you have a lot of work to do. You have suicide attempts Again, wrong words on my part; thoughts, not attempts and violence I am not a violent person at all. and self loathing Yeah, I own that one. My self esteem is pretty low running rampant in your history. You now say you are in active counseling but I did not get that clearly from you as happening presently... Seeing the IC weekly. Was seeing MC weekly until last week or so. Pastor was on vacation for a couple weeks but was seeing him weekly before and have appointment this week. Have a call to that Men's small group. I felt you were saying the porn and the temper and cricitisms and anger problems were "worked on" and "better mostly" but not that you were putting your energy into them nearly as much as you are focussed on your wife. Aside from two outbursts (yeah, that is 2 too many) I have not been angry through this whole affair. My anger issues have been much improved for many months since being off the anti-depressants. I have read several self help books on anger and had seen an IC less than a year ago for this and depression. Yes, since the Bomb on Easter, I have been focused on her, but doing all that I've stated too. Work on you. Div Busting is mostly about saving ourselves from ourselves and our own bad choices, (= working on our flaws!! to become the best people WE can become)
and when we save ourselves, we sometimes find our relationships are saved too. As I read your answers below, I'm getting confused. That's why I highlight my words and bold print whatever you wrote that I'm addressing. Maybe you can try that sometime so I can recall which question you're answering...I asked a lot. [/color]
For the sake of trying to fix myself, I'll try to answer some of these questions.
*I don't understand myself why I asked those questions. Insecurity I suppose. not sure which questions you are referring to...the questions about her past sex life?? Yes, you made a comment that you don't know why men ask these questions. Reading a few phych books and websites: men are very protective of their wives' bodies.
*After first A we sought couples and individual counsel from the pastor at the church. A few months later we attended a weekend marriage seminar. After that it was swept under the rug. So you felt better for that weekend but did not IMPLEMENT the TOOLS THEY GAVE YOU? [color:#FF0000] We did for awhile. I still hold onto much of what was taught. I do not believe W held onto any of it. I tried to communicate but she shut me out. That's my guess b/c those weekends usually offer some methods of coping with recurrent problems, so the problems get better and love is restored.[/color]
*For what it's worth, she brought some videos to bed too. For those with a problem, that's like giving a drink to a non practicing alcoholic. Yes, I see where I could have used some boundaries here but didn't.
*We have been attending church weekly since A#1 with few exceptions. Still do. *Never forced. Coerced probably.
"Probably"??...
You wrote that you felt guilty about doing things in bed which she did not want to do. Obvoiusly you knew she did not want to do them, or you would not have done them, and then you felt guilty...
So, WHY did you feel guilty afterwards, unless you pressured or coerced her? Come on now...no editing your responses [color:#FF0000] I am honest. I asked repeatedly until she gave in. Is that coerced? It was worse (more often) when I was on the anti-depressants with all of their sexual side effects. See, I'm trying to get you to be fully HONEST, with at least yourself. You tend to gloss over what you did in the past. On this forum I gloss over my past. In my real world I harp on it constantly. I am harder on myself than any outside force could be. That's on myself as a husband, a father, a son, an artist, as an employee, etc. That may hurt you less in the moment, but in the long run, it keeps you from really taking responsibility for a flaw
(b/c really taking responsibility, always always means, getting rid of that flaw)
Normally I don't think digging thru the past helps us ---UNLESS we are repeating a pattern. I fear you might be, which is the pattern of saying "I already said sorry/made amends" and then thinking no harm was done by you, or an apology had "undone" the pain you caused. I dug through the past because she's been rubbing my nose in it since I caught her in the A. This is only a partial list that she's brought up. I figured these are the big ticket items I can work on myself.
Yes you use a microscope on HER mistakes, and magnifying the harm she does, and not moving past it.
Don't give yourself so many passes, if you won't give her any. How am I not willing to give a pass? I want to forgive this A and work on our marriage. I want to have the opportunity to show her the progress I've made over the years that I believe she's forgotten as well as the progress I've made in the past couple of months. [/color]
*All discussions have stopped since she moved out a month ago. There had been a few passing talks but no real communication. GOOD^^^. No R talk. You have read the newbie rules that sandi assembled, right? So you know NOT to bring up any R talk and do NOT mention the OM. At all... Told her we can't talk about anything except for the kids as long as OM is in the picture. With her consistently moving toward divorce and detachment along with late night calls and texts, I told her only contact by email. Is this wrong?
*Self loathing and guilt let to both suicide thoughts. I should not have used the word attempt as I never put into action my thoughts. You specifically said things like "suicide attempt #1" and "led to 2nd suicide attempt"
and I THINK you said you were in the hospital and something about how you were checked out once they felt you were no longer a threat to yourself.... [color:#FF0000]Never in hospital. Thought I may have needed to once but her ultimatum made me change my mind. I had wanted an evaluation to see just how bad I was. Again, no eating and no sleep was most likely the issue as I have not had a thought since.
You were THINKING of suicide... and then .... You told her? Pastor told her. He thought I had said something to her by the way she was talking when she met with him. He made a mistake. She doesn't know about thought #2
What was the goal or hope you had, in telling her and not someone else? Was it So that She'd feel "needed"? (FWIW, I don't think that is what was missing from the marriage for her, do you? OR to guilt her into staying with you, or what? Never intended for her to know.
I know it's hard to face these things, but sweeping them under the rug does NOT improve anything for anyone.
[/color] We did talk about my getting checked out at the hospital one day but she said she would not hold it against me in the divorce or with the kids if I signed something saying her leaving was not abandoning the kids. I'm confused. What does YOU getting checked out for psychological problems, (e.g. severe depression/suicidal thoughts/attempts??) have to do with a claim that she didn't abandon the family? That's not me criticizing, it's me asking. Not sure myself. I was still having mild thoughts and figured a quick evaluation wouldn't hurt. Supposedly two of her sisters insisted that if she moved out of the house she had better take the kids or it would be considered abandonment. For about a week she was trying to get me to sign something saying that she was not abandoning them if she left. So, She said she would let me go have the evaluation if I wrote and signed such a paper.
I decided no to go. After she moved out, I was able to get at least 4-5 hours of sleep per night and not the 2 hours each night that I had been getting for weeks. This stopped thoughts of suicide.
*To clear the air about the niece; W never knew about my uncomfort until she said the stuff about "if we had girls". It brought back a memory I had long forgotten.
I would rough-house with the kids at family parties. This one older niece would always want to join in. It made me uncomfortable because she was older and developing. I put a lot of distance between her and I since. Have you sought out counseling for these urges? [color:#FF0000] yes. Was not urges as fear I would have them. I used to work w/men who had those urges and were in jail. It's good to put distance between you two, but depending on her age, you may need to seek out a T to really target this problem.[/color] Not an issue at all. After I got more of a handle on my addiction What "addiction"??? Oh, the Porn addiction?
Okay just to clarify --When you use the term "addiction" and THEN say you "got more of a handle on...", it concerns me b/c 12 step programs do not discuss addictions and then say he's "getting a handle" like that.
They don't tell alcoholics, "drink LESS"; they say "do not drink, b/c you are powerless over alcohol" "one drink is too many and a thousand is never enough"... They say "Do NOT do X", period. Understand? I agree. When I've slipped in the past, I sought help from an accountability partner. Seeking that help again so I don't return being newly single and lonely.
I allowed a little more closeness as I no longer had any fear of my actions. This was after attending church and choosing for follow the teachings. I am trying to learn that her actions and thoughts are not my responsibility. She had blamed me for her unhappiness and the affair which I understand is typical WAW stuff. With help from friends, pastor and IC plus the reading I'm doing is helping though slowly.
Gosh yes I hope you learn that lesson soon. It's hard to let go of what we cannot control but it's harder in the long run, to keep holding onto things we CANNOT control! Such a waste when you think of it, and it also hurts people when they witness that.
Remember, she's the state of "Iowa" and you are not. You are in charge of your own South Carolina. What goes on in her state is her business and what goes on in your state is ONLY your business.
SHE is not responsible for how you feel or think and YOU are NOT responsible for how SHE feels or thinks. Just stay in your sandbox and take care of you and your kids.
Back way off and try not to embellish or magnify things she does that hurt or annoy. It gives away all your power.
Make sense? It's quite late now and I'm rambling, so on that note, Good luck! I hope I've stated my thoughts more clearly this time. I appreciate the help.
Yesterday at work, I was told I should start looking for another job. The last car I worked on looks pretty bad by our standards. I started the project the same week I found out about the A.
That said, I had a really good IC meeting in the afternoon. We were working on solutions to my reactions. I came away from the meeting with some solid practices to the way I react to people around me.
That didn't last long unfortunately. W had taken the boys to her sister's for the night which meant my mom was home. She had just received a couple of troubling phone calls from W. Turns out that W really did believe that I would steal her money as she was told, so she closed our former joint account and opened an new one. So, now she had no debit card. When she took one child shopping for snacks for the night, she tried to use one of my credit cards. The week I split from the joint bank, I also closed the two cards that were in my name for the sake of getting out of debt ASAP. I never thought she would still use the accounts. Well, she called mom at first crying. She was scared and didn't know what to do. Mom offered to drive part way there and giver her cash; W refused. W called back again yelling and mad. She said I did this on purpose just to hurt her and embarrass her. Hearing this made me very angry. I started yelling (to no one but mom was there) about the sitch. Back to my old ways.'
Sent BIL a text as he always calms me down. He asked if I apologized to W. Told him I'd gone dark. He asked said it would be good to offer to help. So, I left W a VM on her cell to call me if she needed cash (not that I have a whole lot). She called back a bit later to say no, that she borrowed from S16. Then we went on talking about her car not passing inspection and how to buy tires. Gave her advice. She was crying for most of the conversation. I made a mistake as said this all could have been different. She stopped crying now. Said we need to talk to pastor about what to tell be boys (about A and D). At that I ended the conversation because I did not want to get into a discussion about our R or our D. Yes I know I started it with my comment.
Lets see what today brings. Heading to work. Got an early appointment with pastor. Later I'd go to my DivorceCare group.
W just picked up the boys for the weekend. Already took them Tuesday and Wednesday. Neither was planned. She also took S16 for his learner's permit; also was uninformed about that. In the spirit of controlling my reactions, I'm just letting this all pass. Found out today she's legally changing her address; don't know to where.
Question: At what point is it benificial to start communicating with W again?
I realized that much of my decision to go dark was because of my reaction to her continued seperation from the marriage. Right now we do not talk at all. I said Hi when she picked up the boys last night. She said she was sorry about the lack of communication. That was all. Even with a devorce, we need to be able to interact. We have the boys and all of their needs and intererests. I also have no intention of giving up the only friends and family I've known for 23 years, and that is her family. I know asking for couples counseling would seem like pursuing, so I can't ask for that. I'm at a loss how to even engage with her at all right now.
Just wriring... Having a very hard time this morning. Working on bills trying to figure out that vacation time with my boys. Also cleaning out W's desk. Found lot of old photos and cards. Found many cards she bought but never sent, obviously for me. Don't know if I have the strength to go through one of the bedroom closets like I had planned.
All I want to do right now is beg for her to come home. I know I can't do this but it's what I want. I thought I was over this sissy crying crap.
Just received a message from W. She wants to sit down with the boys ASAP.
"We need to talk with them. My counselor and BIL said that we both need to take 50% of the blame. Also both of them said that we should not tell S12 about the other person yet. Just let me know."
Maybe I should be ready by now for this but I'm not. Most of this is situation out of my control, but I should be able to control some timing. Any advice would be appreciated.
