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#2458446 06/08/14 09:57 AM
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Starting to get it

Link to my last thread I decided since things have changed I should start fresh, hopefully I will get more feedback because man do I need help.


40s 2teens M14Y
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Copy of my last post on my previous thread:
I haven't spoken to a lawyer yet, but I am starting to gather names. Oh man, I really don't want things to have to go down this path, but I realize that I have to learn to grow a back bone.

I am slowly starting to discuss my financial concerns with him. He seems responsive, but his MO was always to say yes than flake on things later. I am trying to be careful to keep things to one topic so as to not unleash all of my harbored resentment at once, because I am just now realizing how much I have been resenting how he had handled money in the past. I am being forced to face things I have chosen to ignore for so many years. This is where the DB get's tricky. Because I want to continue to DB but at the same time I want to make sure he doesn't flake out on financial responsibilities and I am also so tempted to just tell him exactly how I feel about how unfair things have been due to his carelessness (or maybe it was selfishness although I still have a hard time believing he was being selfish, just clueless).

But now I am realizing what a wimp I am. How for 14 years I have avoided conversations that would stress him out or make him think that I was criticizing or nagging. And here we are, financially screwed because I decided to ignore rather than deal with things because I hate confrontation and he still thinks all of those things about me that I thought I was avoiding. I acted like a child for too long. He already doesn't like me so why should I care about calling him out on his BS now? What do I have to lose at this point? But for some reason I still feel like I need to stroke him rather than laying out the truth. The truth is that he has pissed away so much money on--from what I can tell--a lot of vices and carelessness. I took over the bills to make sure we stopped the cycle of always being behind in everything while the accounts still got drained, I separated my paycheck so that I would know that I had the money to buy groceries when I needed it, rather than finding out at the check out line when my card was declined. And his reaction to that was why is he paying more for the bills then me. Not even acknowledging the fact that only 50% of his income is going towards supporting the family where as 95% of mine is. Not even realizing that he blows through the other 50% with nothing to show for it (except maybe that explains the stacks of scratch offs I find in his closet and the car). I'm so angry that he is accusing me of gypping him when he has been so careless and never felt obligated to put bills and expenses before his daily fixes. He is dealing with one vice, but the other two are more expensive IMHO, and also more of an addiction. I know I am an enabler by always ignoring and cleaning up his messes, and I want to stop doing that now. But I don't know how to do that. But I can't say this to him. Not now. He hates me as it is so anything I say will have no impact except to make him hate me more. So what do I do?

This is definitely a growing experience from me, but why does growing need to be so uncomfortable?


40s 2teens M14Y
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So I had a conversation with him yesterday about the things mentioned in my last post. I agonized over what to say and how to say it for days. I kept praying, "God please show me when the time is right and give me the words that I need to make my points clearly without getting distracted by emotions." Over and over again I kept saying that. I would be full of anger driving and rehearsing all of my words which always reduced me to tears. Then I would see him and soften up--as usual. Torn between loving him and not wanting to say things that will hurt him--and saying what I need to say to let him know that I know how much money he has wasted on lotto tickets, and careless purchases, and his lack of communication when it came to money decisions, and his pattern of blowing through every dollar without one bill being paid. The thing is the more a thought about it, the more I realized what an enabler I have been. I was always there to clean up the messes and I always, always looked the other way.

Then I had a verse of the day come up on a bible app i have that said something like, "Be angry, but sin not. Don't let the sun go down on your anger." And right there was the permission that I have read about in all of my self-help readings about codependency. Anger is ok. As a kid all I heard was "don't get mad". But anger is ok, it is the reaction to that anger that can be good or bad. So that verse kept replaying itself in my head like a mantra. Not only is it ok to be angry, I should deal with my anger with the individual causing it, because if I don't, if I let the sun go down on my anger, it could grow into something really ugly.

So Friday I gave him a heads up, told him we had to have a conversation about money this weekend. And yesterday I waited until I saw he was alone and relaxed and I just spoke from the heart. I might have been too easy on him, but the goal was just to make my points and my concerns going forward. I told him how his past actions have made me feel, and I acknowledged my part in it. I told him that I suspected that most of his spending goes to lotto tickets (at which point i think I saw a shift in his disposition although he said nothing--struck a nerve I guess). And I told him that we need a plan going forward for some of the big expenses that we always know are coming but still seems to catch him by surprise (WTF--like you don't know you have to pay for these things?). Then I said, I know you want a divorce and once you get the ball rolling on that we can have lawyers or a mediator hammer out what is fair, but in the mean time this is still our money, our bills, our spending, and our children and so we have to start communicating and working together to make sure it is all taking care of, and I don't want the kids to sacrifice on extra-curriculars any longer just because at that moment there is no money because I know we can afford it if we just pay better attention to where it is going.

He didn't say much but he looked on the verge of tears. Then he sort of went off topic. Next year's school bills was my biggest concern because we have been pulling that off every year with a lot of luck that we simply can't bank on. and yes, we can affordit--HE can afford it.

When I mentioned that we lucked out this year with tuition, but next year we need to have a plan in place, his response was, "well what are we doing about that. Are we even sending him to this school again next year?" I think he was baiting me, wanting me to get into my typical emotional pattern of pretending things were the same as always and begging him to rethink and accusing him of breaking up a family. But I didn't. I simply said, "I don't know. You want to end the marriage and I don't know what your vision is for how that will play out. If pulling them out of this school is your plan then ok, then me and the kids can move in with my parents until I get on my feet" He didn't like that response and then said maybe he should find a new place to live. I said, "Ok but that doesn't change things about what we need to do about the finances." He said , "I know" but I am not so sure he does. Either way, he looked like he was on the verge of tears, and surprisingly I was not. Then went for a walk to see a friend, and I went for a different walk to let things sink in (that's when I cried).

Later that day he came in and said he was going out and wasn't going to come home because he planned on drinking. He hasn't had a drink since February. This decision was some sort of statement to me, but I'm not sure what. He wasn't angry or bratty or pissy when he told me. He was actually kind of nice. I just said, "OK". Needless to say it wasn't an easy night's sleep last night. But I am proud of myself. I have a fun day planned and will not let his actions stop me.


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I wonder if him telling me he was going to get drunk was a way of gauging my reaction. To see if I cared or tried to stop him. I know I shouldn't mind read but it is difficult not to.


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BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14
EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues
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He is definitely drinking again. Do I acknowledge it? He isn't hiding it, is actually telling me that he is doing it. When he first decided to stop drinking and had gone months without it he seemed mad that I didn't comment. I don't know if he wants me to say something about it. I never thought he was an alcoholic but that his drinking had gotten out of control. He said that he knew he would drink again but he couldn't go back to the same daily habit he had before. I agree. I don't know what to do about this. Sometimes I think he is crying out for me to talk about it, but I don't think it is my place to judge him on this and how can I be detached and bring it up at the same time? Our biggest issues are firmly based in the fact that we don't talk about the tough matters (like money, alcohol, really anything even slightly uncomfortable). I finally got the courage to talk about money, and that seems to have led to him drinking again.

I really just don't know which way is up anymore. He is making no move to get the ball rolling in either direction--either separation or reconciliation. And the limbo feels like torture. We are very pleasant around each other since the money talk, but he is always more pleasant this time of year because his work responsibilities decrease significantly. I'm going away for the weekend. I need some distance.


40s 2teens M14Y
BD-10/12/13 rec-1/14
BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14
EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues
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What do you want to do?

It would appear that his drinking and the reason he drinks are your biggest problems. These have nothing to do with you.

Do you go to AlAnon?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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You are trying to find answers to hugh topics - finances, alcohol abuse, separation and divorce. I urge you to speak to a Divorce Busting Coach. You would definitely benefit from the advice of someone who knows how to deal with these complicated relationship issues. Please call to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004.


Roberta, Resource Coordinator
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I haven't gone to AlAnon but maybe it is time to find a meeting. What I want is for him to want to work on the marriage, but he is so wrapped up in his own stuff and pretty much told me he has no interest in doing that. In the mean time I am just trying to keep things afloat. He says he is on board with my plans then doesn't follow through and gets mad when I try to hold him accountable. I think I am finally accepting that this is addiction problems rather than marriage problems, and maybe walking away is all I can do? His drinking has never really bothered me and I never really thought was a problem--I'm still not sure, but his spending--especially the amount he blows on lotto tickets--has always been a problem that I ignored, and I think I am just now realizing the scope of that addiction.

I would love to talk to a DB coach but I am barely making the bills these days, especially now that he moved his paycheck to a separate account that I have no access to. Now I have to wait for him to write me a check rather than doing it myself. I am talking to my pastor, and it helps, but not so much in the DB arena, more in the sanity department.

This weekend I am having a me weekend. The kids went away with grandparents and I am staying in their empty home away from all of the stress of home. It is lonelier than I expected, but I am determined to make it cathartic.

Last edited by mustardseed; 06/14/14 12:22 AM.

40s 2teens M14Y
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BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14
EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues
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Try alanon and divorcecare.org, it's not all about divorce as the name sounds it's faith based and it also supports marriage and separation.
I am getting so much out of it, knowing I am not alone. They support me in wanting to remain in a marriage!


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Thank you, BonitaL. I'll check that out.


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EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues
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AlAnon is free. You don't even have to say why you're there until you're ready. Just go and listen, give yourself the gift of 6 meetings.

Quote:
What I want is for him to want to work on the marriage, but he is so wrapped up in his own stuff and pretty much told me he has no interest in doing that.

What's wrong with this ^^^ sentence?

Quote:
In the mean time I am just trying to keep things afloat. He says he is on board with my plans then doesn't follow through and gets mad when I try to hold him accountable.

I'm not sure what "try to hold him accountable" means.

Is what you're doing working for you?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
labug #2460552 06/15/14 04:55 PM
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For example we might have a bill coming up that is too steep for one pay period, so I will bring up a possible solution of setting aside a certain amount of money so we will have enough when the time comes. He will say, "Ok, that sounds good" but then he won't follow through and continues to spend everything and when the bill comes there is no money to pay it and he gets pissed off when I ask him for the money. I even suggested him giving money to me to hold so I could save it for him, and again, he is all on board, but then when I ask him for the money he will say, "let's hold off on that for now". And again when it comes time to pay the bill he gets mad that I ask him for his share.

By hold him accountable I mean rather than my old way of just finding alternatives to fixing those problems without stressing him out, I actually will remind him that we had an agreement in place, but when he didn't keep up his end of it the result was now we are in a super stressful situation trying to come up with a huge chunk rather than having a little bit set aside all along. After 14 years I finally got up the nerve to point out to him that carelessness has gotten us into the financial mess we are in, not lack of income. I didn't blame it all on him and took responsibility for my contribution to the situation, but I finally said the things that needed to be said. His reaction was silence, some tearing up, and then disappearing and spending more money. He keeps renting cars so he can just pick up and go as he pleases, meanwhile he won't use that money to fix the car that we are still paying insurance on. The first time he did it I didn't say anything, but this time I called him out on it. I know it isn't proper DBing but at that point I kind of just want it all to end and I kept quiet long enough because I always figured, so what he is worth it. If his financial habits keep us poor so be it. But he isn't worth it any more, and I can't hold it in anymore. He is bailing on me and hasn't given me any clear cut reason as to why except, "we aren't compatible". It took you 14 years to learn we aren't compatible? My problems with the marriage were always money related and the fact that he never wanted us to hang out together with other couples, and had hissy fits when our family was invited to an outing with another family--always found a way to get out of it. Looking back I guess that was his way of telling me he didn't want to spend time with me.

I was a fool because I always believed his words and ignored his actions. Now I am questioning if he ever actually told me the truth about anything.


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ETA: I don't know if it is working yet because I just started calling him out on stuff last week. And this week I took advantage of the kids being away and took a mental health weekend away from him. When I told him I was planning going to house sit for my folks for the weekend (I offered to leave him the car but he said it was fine) he seemed a little uneasy but said ok. Then he pretty much disappeared and apparently rented another car. He is playing games, trying to one up me in the GAL department maybe? Trying to make me suspicious? I don't know. He asked me when I plan to come home because he wants to take a road trip but doesn't know what to do with the dog. Your plans, your problem--although I hate the dog being put in the middle of this. And he tried to pull the father's day guilt trip on me, umm the kids aren't even home so what do you want me to do about father's day? On my birthday he told me he wished I would die and he wants me to care about father's day?

Last edited by mustardseed; 06/15/14 05:08 PM.

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BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14
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I found an alanon meeting for tonight in the town where I am staying. That was convenient, and I feel a little sense of relief knowing I will be going.

I looked into divorcecare meetings. It looks like they have set start and end times, for example one going on now started in May and ends in August or something like that. Can you just pop in on a meeting like with alanon and AA or do you have to sign up for a specific session and do the weeks in order?


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BD-10/12/13 rec-1/14
BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14
EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues
Served with D6/15 MS forced to leave7/15
D agreement signed 8/16 final 5/17
labug #2460578 06/15/14 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: labug

[quote
What I want is for him to want to work on the marriage, but he is so wrapped up in his own stuff and pretty much told me he has no interest in doing that.

What's wrong with this ^^^ sentence?


[/quote]
I forgot to address this part. I know what is wrong with that sentence is that it is all things that are beyond my control. I can't force him to want to be with me and I haven't been trying--well to be completely honest I have slipped up a couple of times, but for the most part, in the past 7 months I have been really good about not trying to force him to have a change of heart. But it doesn't change the fact that that is what I want. That is the ideal. I can settle for second best. I will be ok, and move on with my life if I have to, but that is not what I want. I want us to fix this!

However, what I really, really don't want is to continue on the way we have been. I'm so tired of all of this. I'm so tired of the loneliness. I'm so tired of worrying about money all the time. I'm so tired of always be the one who sacrifices and always having to be the one to say no to the kids because I can't afford something when I know he can (although now I am just telling the kids to ask him rather than having to say no or deal with a conversation about it with him). I just wish he would grow up and decide that this family is worth fighting for. But that is totally out of my hands so I just have to settle for second best.


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MS, I don't think you are settling for 2nd best by moving on with your life. See it as putting yourself and kids first at least for you as you said you can't control your H. Take care


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Yes, I am starting to see it like that CSam00. These few days of distance has helped me, and starting to tell people a bit of what is going on has made it more real. I can't live in denial anymore. I went to an al-anon meeting today. I meant to go yesterday but just as I was leaving my aunt showed up and asked if I wanted to take a walk with her. She had to talk about something going on in her life, and of course while she was talking I burst into tears and told her what has been going on with me for these past 8 months. It felt good to let it out, but then I felt remorseful later. BEcause now that I am starting to say it out loud to people who know both of us it makes it so much more real.

But I went to the meeting today. Of course I happen to go during an anniversary celebration. I felt like a party crasher. But the people were welcoming and encouraged me to get on line to eat. So I ate and waited and waited and nearly 45 minutes passed and nothing happened. I wanted to leave but now I had just eaten their food, it felt really rude to just eat and leave. Then somehow I found out the the woman sitting across from me was also a first timer (and she also ate their food) so I didn't feel so bad anymore. They had two guest speakers, and the first one--a guy from AA--really made me understand some of the patterns. I kept wondering if I belonged there, is he really an alcoholic? He doesn't get sloppy, or angry. He doesn't drink a lot at a time most of the time, but he was drinking daily (although that always seemed kind of normal to me). And when he stopped drinking it was super easy for him--but it didn't make things better so it must not be the drinking that is the problem. But this guy--a young guy who reminded me a lot of a cousin of me--talked about his years as a "dry drunk". And the behaviors he described seemed kind of familiar. The lack of intimacy. The running away from problems. Whether H is an alcoholic or not, I think that Al-anon might be a helpful resource for me. I am going home tomorrow and hope to find a meeting nearby. Unfortunately the one in my city is during my work time, but there has got to be others not too far. I'll have to look into it.

I think I am ready to let him go and maybe even starting the process on my own, but that is easy to say when I am not around him. I am afraid that when I see him my resolve will soften and I will go back to just wanting him.


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Hi mustardseed,
I would call the local divorcecare. They do have programs, but you can start in the middle!! The one I went to there was a man started in the middle and stayed and took it again. I waited for a program to start because I didn't know any better, but you don't have to.
The alanon is a great resource too!! Take care!!


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Thank you. I will look into that.

I came home yesterday and we are back to being super polite but avoiding each other. I am feeling sad again, and remorseful for confiding in people when I was angry over the past few days. It really feels like there is no turning back now, which probably was always the case, but now I feel like I betrayed him by airing our dirty laundry to a friend and a family member. It felt good at the time but now I feel terrible--and I know that I am so done with this situation that I am not opposed to getting papers written up just to not be in limbo anymore, but my heart still wants us to work this out.

I'm hurting so much, and I am ashamed of betraying his trust by talking about our issues--my issues with him. I still don't know what his issues with me are so I'm sure I made him look like the bad guy and me the victim. But I know he is not a bad guy. I love him and still believe that this version of him is not real. I still believe that the things that have haunted us our entire marriage can be fixed. Am I naive to believe that? Am I just a fool? Why do I feel strong and confident with the relationship being over when I am away from him, but as soon as I see him I can't imagine having to let him go--ever.

Last edited by mustardseed; 06/19/14 12:41 AM.

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no words of wisdom but that's how I feel today too.


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Originally Posted By: mustardseed
Yes, I am starting to see it like that CSam00. These few days of distance has helped me, and starting to tell people a bit of what is going on has made it more real. I can't live in denial anymore. I went to an al-anon meeting today. I meant to go yesterday but just as I was leaving my aunt showed up and asked if I wanted to take a walk with her. She had to talk about something going on in her life, and of course while she was talking I burst into tears and told her what has been going on with me for these past 8 months. It felt good to let it out, but then I felt remorseful later. BEcause now that I am starting to say it out loud to people who know both of us it makes it so much more real.

But I went to the meeting today. Of course I happen to go during an anniversary celebration. I felt like a party crasher. But the people were welcoming and encouraged me to get on line to eat. So I ate and waited and waited and nearly 45 minutes passed and nothing happened. I wanted to leave but now I had just eaten their food, it felt really rude to just eat and leave. Then somehow I found out the the woman sitting across from me was also a first timer (and she also ate their food) so I didn't feel so bad anymore. They had two guest speakers, and the first one--a guy from AA--really made me understand some of the patterns. I kept wondering if I belonged there, is he really an alcoholic? He doesn't get sloppy, or angry. He doesn't drink a lot at a time most of the time, but he was drinking daily (although that always seemed kind of normal to me). And when he stopped drinking it was super easy for him--but it didn't make things better so it must not be the drinking that is the problem. But this guy--a young guy who reminded me a lot of a cousin of me--talked about his years as a "dry drunk". And the behaviors he described seemed kind of familiar. The lack of intimacy. The running away from problems. Whether H is an alcoholic or not, I think that Al-anon might be a helpful resource for me. I am going home tomorrow and hope to find a meeting nearby. Unfortunately the one in my city is during my work time, but there has got to be others not too far. I'll have to look into it.

I think I am ready to let him go and maybe even starting the process on my own, but that is easy to say when I am not around him. I am afraid that when I see him my resolve will soften and I will go back to just wanting him.


Good for you! Walking through that door is the hardest step.

Your H doesn't have to be an "alcoholic" for you to attend and get benefit from AlAnon, it's for friends and family of problem drinkers. You get to decide if it's a problem for you.

AlAnon helped me in the detaching process, if you keep going and work the program, you'll get there and it will help you in all your Rs.

Why did his daily drinking seem normal?


Me 57/H 58
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Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
labug #2462841 06/24/14 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: labug


Good for you! Walking through that door is the hardest step.

Your H doesn't have to be an "alcoholic" for you to attend and get benefit from AlAnon, it's for friends and family of problem drinkers. You get to decide if it's a problem for you.

AlAnon helped me in the detaching process, if you keep going and work the program, you'll get there and it will help you in all your Rs.

Why did his daily drinking seem normal?


IDK. I used to drink every day (glass of wine or two) until I started watching my calories. My father drinks every day and it never had any sort of adverse effect on his life from what I have seen. When H drinks he usually buys a few 24 oz and will drink maybe 1 1/2 of them--half empty cans were always left around the house. He has just recently started buying them again but I see he is not finishing them. He will pour himself a pint then leave the rest in the fridge--not sure if it is daily. But he isn't drinking enough to get a buzz.

Having a drink every day never seemed abnormal to me. Then again I have had my issues with alcohol in the past. I almost feel like the moment I decided to get control of it (back in September 2011) was the moment our relationship started to change. I finally addressed my issues with drinking after we had a bad fight. I crossed all sorts of lines. I felt so remorseful and swore I would never get like that again. And I haven't, but he just started pulling away. I thought it was because he couldn't forgive me for that night, but then I started wondering if it was because without me as a drinking buddy, he no longer felt we had anything in common. Maybe he is right. I really don't know.

After that fight a whole lot of things started happening. I started panicking about money and my job situation. A friend of mine lost a young child to the flu that winter, my grandmother died in a very unexpected way that spring, he turned 40, then came Sandy which brought to light how unprepared we are for any sort of crisis, big or small(luckily we were not effected except for a few weeks of no power; but many of our loved ones were). Life just stopped making sense and I know it changed me. At first I was getting all crazy and neurotic--completely unattractive. Then I started going to church (another elephant in the room, I think), and it helped me deal with all of that--I not the old me that just was happy go lucky and ignore everything because it always works out anyway, but I also wasn't the high strung, everything is wrong and I have to get total control me that I was turning into back in 2011-2012. I feel like going to church has helped me find a mature balance--still a work in progress, but I am so much better than I was. But I think it makes him uncomfortable.

I found an alanon meeting that meets once a week not to far from my home. I plan on going this week. I think that I might really benefit from the program.

Last edited by mustardseed; 06/24/14 04:25 AM.

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DB check up. Feedback greatly appreciated.

Since I have been home we have barely spoken. I think I am keeping up a PMA, I have been in a fairly good mood and when I am not I go for a run to snap me back. I caught him off guard over the weekend by going out with a friend. We haven't spoke about it, but I saw a flash of surprise when I told him that I had plans.

I need more GAL things to do that are free. I figure I have Al-Anon meetings, I run every day, I have been going for long walks with S, I've been taking the dog to the off leash park. I've been working, putting time into my job search, I have to get back into gardening. Most of what I do is around the house though. I don't get out much, and with only one car it is not easy to just get up and go.

Yesterday D wanted to play soccer so I went out there with the kids. But I got worn out and came back to make dinner. D asked if I would go back out if H went, too. These kids still have no idea what is going on, thank God. But the fact that they can't tell that we haven't spoken more then 3 words to each other in 6 days probably is an indication of how bad things must have been even before all of this started. Anyway, when she said that I noticed out of the corner of my eye that he looked at me waiting to see what I would say. I just told her that my legs were really sore (they were, I guess I need a rest day from running) and that I would play with her again tomorrow (which is today).

So he went out with them. And I'm glad because he doesn't do that stuff enough but it made me so sad because having the whole family go out to do these things has always been so few and far between and something I loved and the kids are constantly asking me for. "Why doesn't dad ever want to do stuff with the family?" I hate that question. I never knew the answer. They would never ask him, and I didn't know. Now I know, I think, but I can't tell them that it is because he can't stand me. If I wasn't around maybe he would spend more time doing things like that with them. I think from now on my answer to that question will be, "I don't know, you should ask him."

He got to be super dad yesterday and I didn't get to be a part of it. I kept myself busy by cleaning up.

When the kids came back laughing and telling me about H's skills I smiled and laughed along with them. But it [censored] that I am on the outside. That we have to take turns spending time with the kids because he refuses to share anything with me anymore. I just want to be a family again.

Last edited by mustardseed; 06/24/14 11:32 AM.

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Why do you think you're on the outside? You played with them earlier.

You aren't the reason he doesn't spend time with the kids. Where does that harsh voice come from?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
labug #2472695 07/26/14 11:31 AM
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Thank you for your post labug. I don't know how I missed it before. That harsh voice is all around me. I got sucked into the crazy yesterday and it made me realize how much I let him twist things around until I believe I am the problem. To be fair, I already have the wiring to always believe I am the problem anyway so he really doesn't have to do much to get me there. I am learning from Al-anon that this is typical behavior. Addicts twist and manipulate things to be the other person's fault to take the pressure off of them, and those that end up loving alcoholics typically are the sort that are used to taking the blame and the responsibility for everything that happens. Match made in heaven.

His newest claim is that I destroyed our family by not making enough money. I guess that is what the entire divorce is about in his mind. It is probably what is frustrating him the most right now because it is making getting the divorce really difficult. I am not even worried about my financial future without him, yes I will be broke, but I will be able to truly account for everything that comes in and goes out. Right now we live like we are broke anyway, I know how to do that. But I really think my financial picture will improve once we separate. The only real worry I have is that I will lose health insurance. I can get it through my job but only for me and it will cost me 1/3 of my paycheck. But right now anything to get out of the crazy.

I break all of the DB rules whenever a money situation comes up. Yesterday it was because of a hospital bill that came for my D. Because he is the insurance holder it was addressed to him, but I knew it was either her bill or a bill for a procedure I had done so I opened it so I could take care of it. I noticed the amount was wrong because I had paid the ER copay and that was supposed to be refunded to me when she got admitted--but it was the full hospital stay copay. he came home when I was on hold waiting to speak to someone and he was annoyed. Of course no one was available and they will call me back Monday.

Well, he was all annoyed asking what the problem was, and I told them the bill was too high, the ER copay should have been deducted or refunded so that we could apply it to this bill. Then he tells me that months ago he got a check for the amount of the ER copay from the insurance company. Never told me about that. Naturally cashed it, spent it, it is gone now. I was mad he didn't tell me about it, how I shelled out that money from my account and my plan was to apply it to this bill. I budget a bit of my money every month to pay medical bills, and that $75 was 3 months of saving--and he just claims it and spends it? Then he turned it around and said I shouldn't be opening up his mail--it is addressed to him. And the check was in his name so it was his.

Things continued on. I fell back into the trap of diagnosing. He did his own version of "I know you are but what am I" type arguments--before alanon I would have gotten to the point of saying, "you are right, I am", but I had to go somewhere, and I ended up finding a meeting before I cam home.

This money issue is definitely my trigger. Last week it was the fact that the joint account that he pulled his money from once again had an automatic payment scheduled for one of his credit cards (second month in a row, and he said last time he would take care of it). $90 in fees that I shelled out to keep it from destroying the credit that I am working so hard to rebuild. I am teetering on the edge of poor/fair credit so little things like that are a huge deal.

So I finally got to the point of wanting to talk to a lawyer and having some sort of separation agreement written up, even though we continue to live in the same house. I need to make sure bills are paid and that it isn't all on me. I need to be able to detach and stop rescuing when money problems creep in, but when my credit standing and the kids medical bills are on the line I have no choice. Maybe legal intervention will help with that.


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Also, last week when he told me that I destroyed our family by not making enough money, he told me he wanted me to leave. I refused. I told him "this is my home and you can't tell me to come or go". His answer was, "really, you pay the rent?" that sent me reeling. All of this time I have been using my tiny paycheck to bail us out of financial situations. Making sure bills got paid that he ignored. Cleaning up his messes, and not spending a dime on myself (until I separated my money out and started budgeting, because now I can budget for things I need and want). And in his mind it was all him. I sent him an itemized list of where my money goes to support this family which shows we are pretty close to 50/50 on expenses but he has a lot more spending money at the end of it. I am sure this was a mistake, but I am baffled that all of this time I thought I was being a partner contributing everything I had to make this family work and he didn't see it at all.

Is he really that delusional about money? Do I really have to now call attention to every financial contribution I make so that he realizes I am not just a drain? Or is this just a game he is playing to make himself feel like the martyr? He is also paranoid, but the paranoia started a few years ago with people he works with. The world is against him. Now he is convinced that me and my family are trying to turn the kids against him. I never ever said a bad word about him to anyone. The only time I vent about him is here, at work (where my friends have been through something similar and don't know him at all), and alanon meetings. My talks about him with the kids have changed from me making excuses for him to me telling them "I don't know" and they should talk to him about it. But it really bothers me that he sees me this way. That I have become one of the people who has it out for him in his mind. I know this is probably the disease talking, but it still is making me feel defensive. And I know defensive is not the right place to be. The more I try to explain myself the worse it gets, but when I let it go I feel like I am validating his misconceptions about me.

I know this is probably all of my fault for needing to have him explain to me why he is doing this. I should have followed the rules of DB "NO R TALK". But R talk and financial matters talk still are so intertwined. How do I detach from the things I need to detach from, but still stay on top of the finances that need to be dealt with on an ongoing basis?

I realize that the serenity prayer makes sense to me, and the first to points are pretty easy for me most of the time, but that last part--the wisdom to know the difference--that is where I am totally lost!:
God grant me the serenity to change the things I can not change, the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Maybe the issue is that I really just don't trust myself enough? I always believed everything he ever said to me, and I guess I always just ignored his actions. I probably said that here before. Looking back over his actions, this is all making sense. But now he is saying he doesn't want to be married to me, yet he isn't doing a damn thing about ending the marriage. So I am still in the cyclone of actions and words not matching up.

Now I feel like I am just babbling and not making sense anymore. Time to go for a run and clear my head.


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Mustardseed, I'm sorry that got so ugly. I'm not familiar with addiction issues so I won't comment on his state of mind at all, or what the right approach wrt that is.

I can say a thing or two about detachment, though.

First, I think what you're saying to your kids is right. It's really hard to parent through these experiences and I think your honesty is helpful and healthy for them. You are a good mom.

Second, detachment is all about letting him own his stuff without it impacting your state of mind. How are the financial issues and the R issues intertwined? If he's still at home and hasn't made a move to D, then what can't continue going forward? Even things like renewing a policy can be done in uncertainty -- they would be reworked in a D, but if he hasn't done anything about getting a D then you have at least several months to work with.

It is crazy hard to detach while you are still living together. I personally couldn't do it, so I really feel for you. But if you can get yourself to a place where you see him as a crazy roommate, it might give you the perspective you need to feel more detached and not rise to his bait. If there is a way you could get away for a few days I would do it. If his words and actions don't match up then you need to give yourself the space to really know that in your bones and establish a strategy for dealing with it that will give you peace.

Best to you, I'll be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.


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Originally Posted By: Maybell
Mustardseed, I'm sorry that got so ugly. I'm not familiar with addiction issues so I won't comment on his state of mind at all, or what the right approach wrt that is.

I can say a thing or two about detachment, though.

First, I think what you're saying to your kids is right. It's really hard to parent through these experiences and I think your honesty is helpful and healthy for them. You are a good mom.

Second, detachment is all about letting him own his stuff without it impacting your state of mind. How are the financial issues and the R issues intertwined? If he's still at home and hasn't made a move to D, then what can't continue going forward? Even things like renewing a policy can be done in uncertainty -- they would be reworked in a D, but if he hasn't done anything about getting a D then you have at least several months to work with.

It is crazy hard to detach while you are still living together. I personally couldn't do it, so I really feel for you. But if you can get yourself to a place where you see him as a crazy roommate, it might give you the perspective you need to feel more detached and not rise to his bait. If there is a way you could get away for a few days I would do it. If his words and actions don't match up then you need to give yourself the space to really know that in your bones and establish a strategy for dealing with it that will give you peace.

Best to you, I'll be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.


Thank you for your encouragement and insight. I don't know what happens with these money conversations. I think I am angry and I try to stay focused just on the issue, but I'm sure my disgust at his carelessness shows through, so he gets defensive and mean and tries to turn it back on me and I always end up taking the bait. I guess the goal for me is to not take the bait.

Today I couldn't handle the tension and I asked him, "do you think we can ever get to the point where we can talk to each other without getting defensive? Because I know I keep slipping into that mode." And he said, "yes" and talked a little bit about the shame he is feeling about some of the things I've been calling him out on. It was a very brief conversation but I think it was positive. And he paid me back the money for the bank overdraft fines. So things may or may not be better, but I am feeling better. Now I just have to remember your words about detachment. Not letting his actions and words effect me emotionally. I can't get sucked in anymore.

The only bad thing about today is that now I am back to being hopeful we might be able to work this out, and that is not a good place for me to be because that is when I stop setting boundries. I still have so much work to do on myself before I can contribute to a healthy relationship with him or anyone. I'm a pushover, until I lose it and become a raving lunatic. What I need is balance. Healthy balance. Feel angry but deal with it appropriately. Not ignore it, and not let it overtake me.

Ugh, right now the money issue is the biggie for me. I think I said my piece and finally feel like he hears it and understands where I am coming from, so now I can stop trying to defend myself or pile the blame on him and just deal with the issues without the emotion. At least that is what I hope I can do.


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HELP! I think I messed up again.

S was upset this morning because H gave him a hug and said he loved him no matter what, right before he left the house this morning. I think it was a wonderful gesture, and I am happy about that. S is a very sensitive kid and I love that they are starting to really bond on a new level. I know H is paranoid that I am telling the kids bad things about him--I HAVE NOT! Anyway S was emotional about it and said that he is worried that h said that because something bad is going to happen. I didn't know how to answer so I said, "Why don't you call dad and ask him". Which is where I should have left it. But instead I got worried that H wouldn't pick up the phone so I texted him to give him the heads up. Now I am mad at myself for crossing that line. I just should have let it be with S calling H. Now I think H feels like he did the wrong thing by hugging him. And when I reread my texts to him I think it sounds like I am accusing him of doing something wrong. The fact that he is so convinced that I have it out for him has me frantic. I know I am mind reading, but his response to me seemed defensive. Why do I have to get so involved all the time??????


BTW: We haven't talked to them about anything going on with us. I am happy go lucky when they are around and we always take our conversations outside. I don't want them to know anything until there is a plan in place. I don't think it is fair for them to have to deal with this torture of limbo that I have been suffering through these past 9 months. But H isn't moving on any plan for S or D. He wants it but can't make it happen. We are still a one car family and he has not had luck trying to get his own car, much less a new place to live.

Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if the kids sense something--especially S who has been acting differently. But every time I talk to him about things it always seems social issues with peers is the issue. I remember the middle school years and I can't tell if this is normal hormonal shifts or if he is picking up on the shift in our family dynamic. The only real big change is that H and I no longer have any PDA around them and I no longer try to convince H to do things with us--no more pushing for family or couple time. We are super polite to each other around them but don't speak much.

Did I totally F up with my response?

Last edited by mustardseed; 07/27/14 03:31 PM.

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No.

But let them figure out their R. wink

Take off the Ms Fixit hat and focus on you.


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Caroline Myss
labug #2473470 07/29/14 02:41 AM
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Thank you LA bug, for that. After he came home I realized I was totally over-reacting to how I thought my text came across to him. Of course I had to explain to him that I just wanted to give him a heads up, but then later realized it might have sounded accusatory. He said he didn't think anything of it.

Ugh, I realize how far from detached I am lately. Whenever I feel a glimmer of hope I start slipping back into those bad habits of having to fix everything. But when I accept that it is over and I am done and fed up with it, I slip into the opposite bad habits where I feel the need to call him out on everything.

And he is good at turning things around on me. I didn't even realize he did it, until I was explaining to a coworker about the positive conversation we had over the weekend, and she pointed out that once again he blamed his bad behavior on me. I didn't even pick up on it. I went to a double al-anon meeting today. I want to rush it and start the steps already, but I realized I still have a ways to go. When I first started going I thought, hey I already have these first three steps down pat, piece of cake. But then I realized I might know these things cognitively, but I haven't really gotten to the point of acceptance yet. I tend to rush through things, get all gung ho and do a lot of prepartory work before starting, then when I start I think I already know everything I need to know that I don't allow myself to get as much out of it as a should. And of course, then I get bored and burn out and quit. But I know if I really want to change, I need to take it slow and work the steps as it is intended. I am just in such a hurry to get better! But reality is getting better is a life long struggle, not something that I can speed through and get my "You Are Now Perfect" certificate at the end of it.


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I want a "You Are Now Perfect" certificate too! smile

Where you're at is a human place. When I first realized I was actually in a place where divorce was a real possibility, I wrote "180" on the insides of each of my wrists as a reminder to stop and think before I let my instincts rule me again. It pains me to think how different things could have been had I come to acceptance of my reality six months sooner.

But I couldn't. And you know what? As much as I am still a work in progress, I would not trade who I am today with who I would have stayed being had I not gone down this dark and crooked path. Is it worth it?

...yes. (The hesitation is out of respect for the pain this time has caused our extended family and some of our friends.)

So. You're on the dark and crooked path. But you've got maps in your hands, so don't get lost in the woods. smile

You'll get there. Just keep walking.


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I love your analogy of the dark crooked path. I do feel like that. There is something hopeful about the journey even though it is absolutely terrifying. I think I had gotten past the point of feeling so sad about the possibility of this marriage ending. Like I have gotten closure on the old relationship, even though we are still in limbo. It is like the map is starting to make sense, and feel worth it, and that even though I don't know where I will be when I get there, I know that it will be a much better place then where I am now. And I also believe it will be a much better place then where I started when I thought things were perfect.

When I look back on where my marriage went wrong I very easily go back to September 2011. That is the exact time when I started feeling like my life was spinning out of control. When I started panicking that my dreams were not coming true. Maybe I had a bit of a midlife crises at that time, even though I wasn't at a typical MLC age. That is when I went from a Scarlett O'Hara point of view (pretty much living in a happy go lucky place of denial and waiting for someone else to clean up my messes) to what I thought was a mature and responsible way of being. But in reality I was just becoming obsessed with trying to control everything. And I was driving myself and my husband crazy. I think, also, this change of attitude brought about resistance in H. Because the truth was that things weren't all my fault, and that was hard for both of us to accept.

And then some completely frightening and unexpected and uncontrollable things started to happen (unexpected deaths that happened in ways I never would have dreamed, weather related crises that effected loved ones but scared the S out of me). It all just made me crazier, because I was just finally starting to get to the point of being able to prepare for the expected and now I was bombarded with the unexpected.

I see my role in all of this--I'm the one who changed, and it isn't such a bad thing, I just tried to take the training wheels off too soon. I am learning that there is a balance, although I am still searching for it. There is a way to be accountable for the things within my control and to let go of the things that are not, but like I said before, discerning which is which is where my problem lies.

And I am starting to see him differently. He was always perfect in my eyes. I was always the flawed one, and the fact that he loved me always amazed me. The fact that he didn't see these faults. He deserved someone better, but when I thought I was becoming that better person, things just got worse. He pulled away. It didn't make any sense. But now I realize that he isn't perfect. No one is.

The more I tried to become a better contributor the more he was faced with his own demons. The reality that our financial problems were more on an outflow problem then inflow was such a positive finding for me and I thought he would feel the same way. But instead he got very defensive about it. And I guess it is because he knew he had issues that I never noticed. He has been struggling with his issues--and even to this day I am trying to talk him out of acknowledging them.

Until I decided to get angry, then I started listing them all. Being angry is a new thing for me, too. Something that just started a few months ago. And I am learning that anger is ok, it is how we react to it that is the problem. Again, I need to find the balance between setting boundaries and lecturing. And I need to stop apologizing.

I am learning through this process that he isn't right all of the time. That sometimes he actually says things just to hurt me, and not because they are true. That just because he puts all the blame on me doesn't mean I have to take it on. It is all of those subtle things that I never realize is happening. It isn't until I talk about them in a meeting, or with a friend who has been through it with an addict that I am shown the manipulation that is coated in what seems like a humble acknowledgement of his faults--but at the heart of it there is always that hint of "because of you". I am starting to see it, but I am still working on how to handle it.

And that is why those maps are so important. Those checkpoints to help me identify where I am right NOW, rather than focusing on where I am headed or where I came from.

Last edited by mustardseed; 07/29/14 08:07 PM.

40s 2teens M14Y
BD-10/12/13 rec-1/14
BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14
EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues
Served with D6/15 MS forced to leave7/15
D agreement signed 8/16 final 5/17
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