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Originally Posted By: mustardseed
Yes, I am starting to see it like that CSam00. These few days of distance has helped me, and starting to tell people a bit of what is going on has made it more real. I can't live in denial anymore. I went to an al-anon meeting today. I meant to go yesterday but just as I was leaving my aunt showed up and asked if I wanted to take a walk with her. She had to talk about something going on in her life, and of course while she was talking I burst into tears and told her what has been going on with me for these past 8 months. It felt good to let it out, but then I felt remorseful later. BEcause now that I am starting to say it out loud to people who know both of us it makes it so much more real.

But I went to the meeting today. Of course I happen to go during an anniversary celebration. I felt like a party crasher. But the people were welcoming and encouraged me to get on line to eat. So I ate and waited and waited and nearly 45 minutes passed and nothing happened. I wanted to leave but now I had just eaten their food, it felt really rude to just eat and leave. Then somehow I found out the the woman sitting across from me was also a first timer (and she also ate their food) so I didn't feel so bad anymore. They had two guest speakers, and the first one--a guy from AA--really made me understand some of the patterns. I kept wondering if I belonged there, is he really an alcoholic? He doesn't get sloppy, or angry. He doesn't drink a lot at a time most of the time, but he was drinking daily (although that always seemed kind of normal to me). And when he stopped drinking it was super easy for him--but it didn't make things better so it must not be the drinking that is the problem. But this guy--a young guy who reminded me a lot of a cousin of me--talked about his years as a "dry drunk". And the behaviors he described seemed kind of familiar. The lack of intimacy. The running away from problems. Whether H is an alcoholic or not, I think that Al-anon might be a helpful resource for me. I am going home tomorrow and hope to find a meeting nearby. Unfortunately the one in my city is during my work time, but there has got to be others not too far. I'll have to look into it.

I think I am ready to let him go and maybe even starting the process on my own, but that is easy to say when I am not around him. I am afraid that when I see him my resolve will soften and I will go back to just wanting him.


Good for you! Walking through that door is the hardest step.

Your H doesn't have to be an "alcoholic" for you to attend and get benefit from AlAnon, it's for friends and family of problem drinkers. You get to decide if it's a problem for you.

AlAnon helped me in the detaching process, if you keep going and work the program, you'll get there and it will help you in all your Rs.

Why did his daily drinking seem normal?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
labug #2462841 06/24/14 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: labug


Good for you! Walking through that door is the hardest step.

Your H doesn't have to be an "alcoholic" for you to attend and get benefit from AlAnon, it's for friends and family of problem drinkers. You get to decide if it's a problem for you.

AlAnon helped me in the detaching process, if you keep going and work the program, you'll get there and it will help you in all your Rs.

Why did his daily drinking seem normal?


IDK. I used to drink every day (glass of wine or two) until I started watching my calories. My father drinks every day and it never had any sort of adverse effect on his life from what I have seen. When H drinks he usually buys a few 24 oz and will drink maybe 1 1/2 of them--half empty cans were always left around the house. He has just recently started buying them again but I see he is not finishing them. He will pour himself a pint then leave the rest in the fridge--not sure if it is daily. But he isn't drinking enough to get a buzz.

Having a drink every day never seemed abnormal to me. Then again I have had my issues with alcohol in the past. I almost feel like the moment I decided to get control of it (back in September 2011) was the moment our relationship started to change. I finally addressed my issues with drinking after we had a bad fight. I crossed all sorts of lines. I felt so remorseful and swore I would never get like that again. And I haven't, but he just started pulling away. I thought it was because he couldn't forgive me for that night, but then I started wondering if it was because without me as a drinking buddy, he no longer felt we had anything in common. Maybe he is right. I really don't know.

After that fight a whole lot of things started happening. I started panicking about money and my job situation. A friend of mine lost a young child to the flu that winter, my grandmother died in a very unexpected way that spring, he turned 40, then came Sandy which brought to light how unprepared we are for any sort of crisis, big or small(luckily we were not effected except for a few weeks of no power; but many of our loved ones were). Life just stopped making sense and I know it changed me. At first I was getting all crazy and neurotic--completely unattractive. Then I started going to church (another elephant in the room, I think), and it helped me deal with all of that--I not the old me that just was happy go lucky and ignore everything because it always works out anyway, but I also wasn't the high strung, everything is wrong and I have to get total control me that I was turning into back in 2011-2012. I feel like going to church has helped me find a mature balance--still a work in progress, but I am so much better than I was. But I think it makes him uncomfortable.

I found an alanon meeting that meets once a week not to far from my home. I plan on going this week. I think that I might really benefit from the program.

Last edited by mustardseed; 06/24/14 04:25 AM.

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DB check up. Feedback greatly appreciated.

Since I have been home we have barely spoken. I think I am keeping up a PMA, I have been in a fairly good mood and when I am not I go for a run to snap me back. I caught him off guard over the weekend by going out with a friend. We haven't spoke about it, but I saw a flash of surprise when I told him that I had plans.

I need more GAL things to do that are free. I figure I have Al-Anon meetings, I run every day, I have been going for long walks with S, I've been taking the dog to the off leash park. I've been working, putting time into my job search, I have to get back into gardening. Most of what I do is around the house though. I don't get out much, and with only one car it is not easy to just get up and go.

Yesterday D wanted to play soccer so I went out there with the kids. But I got worn out and came back to make dinner. D asked if I would go back out if H went, too. These kids still have no idea what is going on, thank God. But the fact that they can't tell that we haven't spoken more then 3 words to each other in 6 days probably is an indication of how bad things must have been even before all of this started. Anyway, when she said that I noticed out of the corner of my eye that he looked at me waiting to see what I would say. I just told her that my legs were really sore (they were, I guess I need a rest day from running) and that I would play with her again tomorrow (which is today).

So he went out with them. And I'm glad because he doesn't do that stuff enough but it made me so sad because having the whole family go out to do these things has always been so few and far between and something I loved and the kids are constantly asking me for. "Why doesn't dad ever want to do stuff with the family?" I hate that question. I never knew the answer. They would never ask him, and I didn't know. Now I know, I think, but I can't tell them that it is because he can't stand me. If I wasn't around maybe he would spend more time doing things like that with them. I think from now on my answer to that question will be, "I don't know, you should ask him."

He got to be super dad yesterday and I didn't get to be a part of it. I kept myself busy by cleaning up.

When the kids came back laughing and telling me about H's skills I smiled and laughed along with them. But it [censored] that I am on the outside. That we have to take turns spending time with the kids because he refuses to share anything with me anymore. I just want to be a family again.

Last edited by mustardseed; 06/24/14 11:32 AM.

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Why do you think you're on the outside? You played with them earlier.

You aren't the reason he doesn't spend time with the kids. Where does that harsh voice come from?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
labug #2472695 07/26/14 11:31 AM
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Thank you for your post labug. I don't know how I missed it before. That harsh voice is all around me. I got sucked into the crazy yesterday and it made me realize how much I let him twist things around until I believe I am the problem. To be fair, I already have the wiring to always believe I am the problem anyway so he really doesn't have to do much to get me there. I am learning from Al-anon that this is typical behavior. Addicts twist and manipulate things to be the other person's fault to take the pressure off of them, and those that end up loving alcoholics typically are the sort that are used to taking the blame and the responsibility for everything that happens. Match made in heaven.

His newest claim is that I destroyed our family by not making enough money. I guess that is what the entire divorce is about in his mind. It is probably what is frustrating him the most right now because it is making getting the divorce really difficult. I am not even worried about my financial future without him, yes I will be broke, but I will be able to truly account for everything that comes in and goes out. Right now we live like we are broke anyway, I know how to do that. But I really think my financial picture will improve once we separate. The only real worry I have is that I will lose health insurance. I can get it through my job but only for me and it will cost me 1/3 of my paycheck. But right now anything to get out of the crazy.

I break all of the DB rules whenever a money situation comes up. Yesterday it was because of a hospital bill that came for my D. Because he is the insurance holder it was addressed to him, but I knew it was either her bill or a bill for a procedure I had done so I opened it so I could take care of it. I noticed the amount was wrong because I had paid the ER copay and that was supposed to be refunded to me when she got admitted--but it was the full hospital stay copay. he came home when I was on hold waiting to speak to someone and he was annoyed. Of course no one was available and they will call me back Monday.

Well, he was all annoyed asking what the problem was, and I told them the bill was too high, the ER copay should have been deducted or refunded so that we could apply it to this bill. Then he tells me that months ago he got a check for the amount of the ER copay from the insurance company. Never told me about that. Naturally cashed it, spent it, it is gone now. I was mad he didn't tell me about it, how I shelled out that money from my account and my plan was to apply it to this bill. I budget a bit of my money every month to pay medical bills, and that $75 was 3 months of saving--and he just claims it and spends it? Then he turned it around and said I shouldn't be opening up his mail--it is addressed to him. And the check was in his name so it was his.

Things continued on. I fell back into the trap of diagnosing. He did his own version of "I know you are but what am I" type arguments--before alanon I would have gotten to the point of saying, "you are right, I am", but I had to go somewhere, and I ended up finding a meeting before I cam home.

This money issue is definitely my trigger. Last week it was the fact that the joint account that he pulled his money from once again had an automatic payment scheduled for one of his credit cards (second month in a row, and he said last time he would take care of it). $90 in fees that I shelled out to keep it from destroying the credit that I am working so hard to rebuild. I am teetering on the edge of poor/fair credit so little things like that are a huge deal.

So I finally got to the point of wanting to talk to a lawyer and having some sort of separation agreement written up, even though we continue to live in the same house. I need to make sure bills are paid and that it isn't all on me. I need to be able to detach and stop rescuing when money problems creep in, but when my credit standing and the kids medical bills are on the line I have no choice. Maybe legal intervention will help with that.


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Also, last week when he told me that I destroyed our family by not making enough money, he told me he wanted me to leave. I refused. I told him "this is my home and you can't tell me to come or go". His answer was, "really, you pay the rent?" that sent me reeling. All of this time I have been using my tiny paycheck to bail us out of financial situations. Making sure bills got paid that he ignored. Cleaning up his messes, and not spending a dime on myself (until I separated my money out and started budgeting, because now I can budget for things I need and want). And in his mind it was all him. I sent him an itemized list of where my money goes to support this family which shows we are pretty close to 50/50 on expenses but he has a lot more spending money at the end of it. I am sure this was a mistake, but I am baffled that all of this time I thought I was being a partner contributing everything I had to make this family work and he didn't see it at all.

Is he really that delusional about money? Do I really have to now call attention to every financial contribution I make so that he realizes I am not just a drain? Or is this just a game he is playing to make himself feel like the martyr? He is also paranoid, but the paranoia started a few years ago with people he works with. The world is against him. Now he is convinced that me and my family are trying to turn the kids against him. I never ever said a bad word about him to anyone. The only time I vent about him is here, at work (where my friends have been through something similar and don't know him at all), and alanon meetings. My talks about him with the kids have changed from me making excuses for him to me telling them "I don't know" and they should talk to him about it. But it really bothers me that he sees me this way. That I have become one of the people who has it out for him in his mind. I know this is probably the disease talking, but it still is making me feel defensive. And I know defensive is not the right place to be. The more I try to explain myself the worse it gets, but when I let it go I feel like I am validating his misconceptions about me.

I know this is probably all of my fault for needing to have him explain to me why he is doing this. I should have followed the rules of DB "NO R TALK". But R talk and financial matters talk still are so intertwined. How do I detach from the things I need to detach from, but still stay on top of the finances that need to be dealt with on an ongoing basis?

I realize that the serenity prayer makes sense to me, and the first to points are pretty easy for me most of the time, but that last part--the wisdom to know the difference--that is where I am totally lost!:
God grant me the serenity to change the things I can not change, the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Maybe the issue is that I really just don't trust myself enough? I always believed everything he ever said to me, and I guess I always just ignored his actions. I probably said that here before. Looking back over his actions, this is all making sense. But now he is saying he doesn't want to be married to me, yet he isn't doing a damn thing about ending the marriage. So I am still in the cyclone of actions and words not matching up.

Now I feel like I am just babbling and not making sense anymore. Time to go for a run and clear my head.


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Mustardseed, I'm sorry that got so ugly. I'm not familiar with addiction issues so I won't comment on his state of mind at all, or what the right approach wrt that is.

I can say a thing or two about detachment, though.

First, I think what you're saying to your kids is right. It's really hard to parent through these experiences and I think your honesty is helpful and healthy for them. You are a good mom.

Second, detachment is all about letting him own his stuff without it impacting your state of mind. How are the financial issues and the R issues intertwined? If he's still at home and hasn't made a move to D, then what can't continue going forward? Even things like renewing a policy can be done in uncertainty -- they would be reworked in a D, but if he hasn't done anything about getting a D then you have at least several months to work with.

It is crazy hard to detach while you are still living together. I personally couldn't do it, so I really feel for you. But if you can get yourself to a place where you see him as a crazy roommate, it might give you the perspective you need to feel more detached and not rise to his bait. If there is a way you could get away for a few days I would do it. If his words and actions don't match up then you need to give yourself the space to really know that in your bones and establish a strategy for dealing with it that will give you peace.

Best to you, I'll be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.


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Originally Posted By: Maybell
Mustardseed, I'm sorry that got so ugly. I'm not familiar with addiction issues so I won't comment on his state of mind at all, or what the right approach wrt that is.

I can say a thing or two about detachment, though.

First, I think what you're saying to your kids is right. It's really hard to parent through these experiences and I think your honesty is helpful and healthy for them. You are a good mom.

Second, detachment is all about letting him own his stuff without it impacting your state of mind. How are the financial issues and the R issues intertwined? If he's still at home and hasn't made a move to D, then what can't continue going forward? Even things like renewing a policy can be done in uncertainty -- they would be reworked in a D, but if he hasn't done anything about getting a D then you have at least several months to work with.

It is crazy hard to detach while you are still living together. I personally couldn't do it, so I really feel for you. But if you can get yourself to a place where you see him as a crazy roommate, it might give you the perspective you need to feel more detached and not rise to his bait. If there is a way you could get away for a few days I would do it. If his words and actions don't match up then you need to give yourself the space to really know that in your bones and establish a strategy for dealing with it that will give you peace.

Best to you, I'll be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.


Thank you for your encouragement and insight. I don't know what happens with these money conversations. I think I am angry and I try to stay focused just on the issue, but I'm sure my disgust at his carelessness shows through, so he gets defensive and mean and tries to turn it back on me and I always end up taking the bait. I guess the goal for me is to not take the bait.

Today I couldn't handle the tension and I asked him, "do you think we can ever get to the point where we can talk to each other without getting defensive? Because I know I keep slipping into that mode." And he said, "yes" and talked a little bit about the shame he is feeling about some of the things I've been calling him out on. It was a very brief conversation but I think it was positive. And he paid me back the money for the bank overdraft fines. So things may or may not be better, but I am feeling better. Now I just have to remember your words about detachment. Not letting his actions and words effect me emotionally. I can't get sucked in anymore.

The only bad thing about today is that now I am back to being hopeful we might be able to work this out, and that is not a good place for me to be because that is when I stop setting boundries. I still have so much work to do on myself before I can contribute to a healthy relationship with him or anyone. I'm a pushover, until I lose it and become a raving lunatic. What I need is balance. Healthy balance. Feel angry but deal with it appropriately. Not ignore it, and not let it overtake me.

Ugh, right now the money issue is the biggie for me. I think I said my piece and finally feel like he hears it and understands where I am coming from, so now I can stop trying to defend myself or pile the blame on him and just deal with the issues without the emotion. At least that is what I hope I can do.


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HELP! I think I messed up again.

S was upset this morning because H gave him a hug and said he loved him no matter what, right before he left the house this morning. I think it was a wonderful gesture, and I am happy about that. S is a very sensitive kid and I love that they are starting to really bond on a new level. I know H is paranoid that I am telling the kids bad things about him--I HAVE NOT! Anyway S was emotional about it and said that he is worried that h said that because something bad is going to happen. I didn't know how to answer so I said, "Why don't you call dad and ask him". Which is where I should have left it. But instead I got worried that H wouldn't pick up the phone so I texted him to give him the heads up. Now I am mad at myself for crossing that line. I just should have let it be with S calling H. Now I think H feels like he did the wrong thing by hugging him. And when I reread my texts to him I think it sounds like I am accusing him of doing something wrong. The fact that he is so convinced that I have it out for him has me frantic. I know I am mind reading, but his response to me seemed defensive. Why do I have to get so involved all the time??????


BTW: We haven't talked to them about anything going on with us. I am happy go lucky when they are around and we always take our conversations outside. I don't want them to know anything until there is a plan in place. I don't think it is fair for them to have to deal with this torture of limbo that I have been suffering through these past 9 months. But H isn't moving on any plan for S or D. He wants it but can't make it happen. We are still a one car family and he has not had luck trying to get his own car, much less a new place to live.

Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if the kids sense something--especially S who has been acting differently. But every time I talk to him about things it always seems social issues with peers is the issue. I remember the middle school years and I can't tell if this is normal hormonal shifts or if he is picking up on the shift in our family dynamic. The only real big change is that H and I no longer have any PDA around them and I no longer try to convince H to do things with us--no more pushing for family or couple time. We are super polite to each other around them but don't speak much.

Did I totally F up with my response?

Last edited by mustardseed; 07/27/14 03:31 PM.

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BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14
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No.

But let them figure out their R. wink

Take off the Ms Fixit hat and focus on you.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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