Ooops! Okay, Now that I have reflected...YES I do think it's better this way.
So, Any NEW tools or behaviors in the communication arena? I think that is key. And any chance of going to Retrovaille? It will NOT Harm you and it might very well help you a lot.
--Come to think of it, I can't see how it could harm any couple, and every single couple we attended with, said it helped. Some said it helped "more than expected" and others said "it's a miracle", but no one was blasé about it.
Crimson, I just pray you will learn for sure, some NEW ways of communicating and approaching each other. Otherwise I fear you'll be back here, without good news.
Any updates?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
There are updates and there have been notable improvements in the channels of communication - believe it or not, championed and advocated by her. When she met with my counselor on her own quite some time back (remember that?) she was identified as codependent in our relationship....hell, I was too in countless regards. She has really dug into that and identified with it -- it has become a reference point and catalyst for a lot of discussion and kind of changes the lens with which she reviews the past a bit. Don't get me wrong, I still certainly don't look GOOD in the past through that lens by any stretch of the imagination - but it gives her context for her behaviors, actions, inactions and feelings back then. My counselor also pointed out to her (and to me) that I fell somewhere on the narcissism scale - fortunately nowhere near the sociopath range and but for SURE in the self-absorption space. That, too, has helped both of us understand things better....when it is in format or a construct that we can look back upon and use as a benchmark or a tool with which we can explain or view things - a lot of things fall into place and the picture of the failure of our marriage comes into a sharper focus. There are more variables to this equation, but the simple "boiled-down" version is:
Codependent Male + Codependent Female + Self Absorbed Male - Accountability + Poor Communication = Failed Marriage
That is probably the easiest way for me to put it, again -- there are other factors but that sums it up pretty nicely.
We are working pretty hard at maintaining honest, open communication - which is quite a new thing. It has its challenges because she still has a pretty soft "underbelly" when it comes to digesting criticisms and constructive feedback, but I am also learning that it is about how I deliver the message.
She is at the house a lot more and we are both talking about making changes here and there to make it more comfortable and erase bad memories. It's amazing how much negative energy and emotion a "thing" can evoke just based upon its association with a memory. So we have already painted the kitchen and are looking at new art and pictures for our walls. I was pretty much one-sided and not very collaborative when we were married and did this. For her, having a a moment to "shake the etch-a-sketch" and have a clean palate upon which to start is helpful.
As weird as this may sound, for quite a few years (and still) I had a large picture or a dead, barren tree hanging over our bed. I took the picture at the Grand Canyon and it turned out really well.....but symbolically? Is that what you want hanging over the bed you share with your spouse? After infertility and a dead marriage? MMMMM, probably not....small thing, but it matters.
We had about a 2 hour talk in the driveway last Sunday about a lot of things. We have yet to become "physical" as I may have mentioned before - not just sex or anything, we don't hold hands or anything along those lines just yet. I am beginning to realize that she (and most women, I suppose?) needs to feel emotionally secure before that line is crossed. And it is easier to do that with a stranger with which you have no history (I.E. the OM) as opposed to someone you have a history with....me. I told her in the driveway that it made me feel "ugly" or "unattractive" to her -- I didn't say it in a guilt or shaming way, but she kind of received it like that. She then said something rather enlightening "Chris, I could work with a dozen good looking men and not have romantic feelings for any of them". Well, that opened my eyes a bit.
I explained this to my counselor and she very wisely told me that women need to feel emotional before they feel sexual with anyone - and men, in many respects, need to feel accepted sexually before they are emotional or vulnerable. As she put it, God probably made it that way as a system of checks and balances so we don't "f*ck each other to death"....her words not mine (I love my counselor!). So that really helped me start getting over my ego hang-ups with the lack of physical touch. I understand that she needs to feel emotionally secure...safe...before that opens back up for us. And, as she said last night via text, everything seems surreal about the changes that I have made over the years....like they are almost too hard to believe and trust. However, a wise woman once told me:
Time + Consistency = Change she can believe in.
I just didn't know that it would require THAT much time. IF you are in the heat of your situation and reading this, bring a dose of patience.
With regard to S, he is loving this all. A few weeks back we sat on the couch watch old videos of him on my MacBook that neither of us had seen for years. He sandwiched himself between us, used his tiny arms to pull us both closer an said - "get closer! like we're a family!" -- it really touched my heart. X said "we are a family". I did not ask for details. He said similar things while we were at Disney, too.
So....I need to get running. I have my open water dive exam tomorrow and I have been cloistered away studying for the last few days. Thoughts? 25? Anyone? I would love your feedback.
On one hand, I'm concerned about her "underbelly" still not handling feedback that isn't all positive, and I'd very much like to see that get some focus.
On your behalf, I feel cautious...
On the other hand, a big part of me wants to CLAP CLAP CLAP!!! Because this is almost as good as it can get.
So I guess my feedback would be, Carry on as you are, stay the course and take your time.
Especially in your situation (based on your past experience), please take it slowly. Find out why she left last time and how to avoid that from happening again, and get her to communicate frustrations/pain before she lets it fester too much...
BTW, I agree with what your counselor said about intimacy & how men/women view it so differently.
Reminds me of what my favorite brother said about sex one time. He was divorced and then he dated a lot, and he had 3 d's from his m.
I told him I didn't understand how he could sleep with so many women he barely knew, and why didn't he want to get to know them first?
To which HE replied, "that's HOW I get to know them". (ME: "Oh...")
Boy, ^^^ that IS a big difference between men and women.
Most of my female friends, (not all, but most) want to get to know the man first, to feel "safe" with him, and THEN to pursue the physical aspects of compatibility.
It's one factor in dating that I would dread. Being intimate is something I like, don't get me wrong. But NOT knowing the person well, geez, it makes me think about things like "Does he like this, or that?" And "Does that stretch mark, which is NOT from carrying HIS children, freak him out?" And "God, I hope he's not one of those 'conquest & never call again' types"....(you'd hope by middle age that it is NOT something we have to deal with, but I don't know for sure...)
Maybe this^^^ sounds silly, but a lot of my friends and sisters say they think that way at times. With a few exceptions of course. There are probably biological reasons we don't feel comfortable w/intimacy too quickly as well, the inherent "stuck holding the bag" of unexpected pregnancies maybe, or just the "he didn't call after 'it'," and of course the infamous but frequently stated "Gosh I sure hope he's not an axe murderer!" also plays a role.
All I know is I hear the "I don't feel comfortable enough yet", a lot.
Back to YOU...I'm crossing my fingers. I'm very tempted to do my happy dance...
but I will hold off on that, til YOU say we can, okay?
CARRY ON!!
Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 07/31/1405:11 PM.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
As weird as this may sound, for quite a few years (and still) I had a large picture or a dead, barren tree hanging over our bed. I took the picture at the Grand Canyon and it turned out really well.....but symbolically?
I've read this post a couple of times and I laugh at this every time. So what are you going to replace the dead tree (teehee) with?
I've often wondered why you don't post much to others here and thanks for visiting me. I think in the past I've encouraged you to post to others. Why do you think that is? I know what you say it is but, really?
I know I've probably said this to you before but one of the best things I've learned through this is don't take things personally.
The title of my new thread: Baby steps, patience and embracing uncertainty (I had to take out embracing as it was too long but you get the idea)
It's always true.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
I know as odd as this may sound, I still wrestle with the notion that I could actually HELP someone - you know? There have been a few situations where I have checked in and tried to help because for some reason the prima facia evidence of what the H was possibly getting "wrong" resonated with me (SM34 anyone?). And then there are a lot of situations that are so dissimilar from mine I wouldn't even know where to begin....infidelity and so on. I don't even feel remotely qualified to weigh in on those. Now, if you present me with a well-intentioned husband that was/is living a very clueless, self-absorbed life and thinks everything is just peachy -- all the while his wife is seething, unhappy, and plotting a way out -- yeah, I think I could help there.
I am all caught up on your thread/sitch. Very happy to read that things are progressing in a positive direction.
The one thing that I will suggest(which has already been suggested), is to look into Retrouvaille. It will help you communicate on a whole different level. It will make you dig to places that you don't even realize. The program is profound.
My W and I attended a Retrouvaille CORE meeting about a month ago. It isn't the in depth part, like the weekend or post sessions, but a good little refresher nonetheless.
After the meeting, we went for coffee with the hosting couple who have become good friends. I was struggling with a sense of entitlement. I was aware of it, but was unable to overcome that attitude. I brought up my issue. The H told me that I had a lot of responsibility for our sitch, given that I was the enabler. Oh snap, that was a reality check. I had to be accountable for my part. Just needed someone to slap me with it. It made a world of difference.
I highly suggest you consider it.
Keep on keeping on.
Me:45 ExW:48 M:04/97 3 Bombs & 2 ReCons 1st BD 11/10 D Finalized 4/20 D-16 S-14 Going in one more round when you don't think you can. That's what makes all the difference in life.~Rocky Balboa
I think when she moved back in last year for a few months I suggested it - but in retrospect neither of us was in a place where we were truly ready to take certain things on. This time around feels notably different - so it may happen, Retro-V that is.
We have spent time together as a family mostly every weekend and we have engaged in some pretty honest talks....several of them, actually. More than anything, she is acknowledging and owning her role in the dynamic that tanked our marriage. Not only that but she has taken a look back into her past with her family and childhood to see how it contributed to her actions in our relationship. "Connecting the dots" as she calls it, helped her take steps forward.
We still have yet to cross any physical lines...not even holding hands or hugs, but I suspect that will come along in time if we stay on this trajectory. Time will tell, but we seem to be doing OK and going through the normal paces and emotions/feelings that come along with this stage....I think....at least my IC said so.
(Insert Jeaopardy Music)
