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#2447551 04/22/14 10:03 PM
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bashy Offline OP
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Apologies. I posted this in Hopefulness section but should have posted here as a newbie. Anyway, my story. I hope someone can help/advise....


Newbie from the UK. Love the site. Has given me hope reading some of the posts and advice.. or is it false expectations.
Need some help if anyone is interested. I'll put in bullet point form and then explain further if people have questions. Sorry if it’s really long.
- Dated partner 11 years; married nearly three before she told me she loved me but wasn't in love with me back in October
- lived with her and our only daughter (10) until new years to have a final xmas together
- we slept together twice in that time but second time we both said it didn't feel right. Still shared a bed that whole time.
- we have split twice before. First time after two years was her decision. I was an idiot. Didn't take care of myself physically etc Then she took me back. Then a few years later I messed around texting other girls before it was me who dumped her. My mum had died a few weeks before hand and my head was messed up. We got back together within 18 months and life was perfect. We got married two years later.
- I promised to get act my together. Got a great new job but it was night shift but lost over two stone and really taking care of myself. (She told me only last week that I was looking the best I’ve ever looked.)
- But my work affected our relationship. She warned me we were passing ships but I was more concerned with securing our financial future. I was tired at weekends. I never made ‘us’ time. She started going out with her sister towards the end and that was when she told me.
- After the split I cried, pleaded, got angry etc but for last two months I’ve read comments on this site ie don’t be clingy, don’t text, be courteous and helpful when needed with regard to daughter.
- We now have a great relationship ie her comment about how I looked last week, could I lift my top up to see if I had a six pack, we talked today for 25 minutes about our daughter. She texts me a few days a week but mainly about daughter.
- We’ve been for the odd Burger King meal etc with daughter to make things seem normal and promised to take her shopping soon for clothes for the summer.
- I know were I went wrong. I didn’t make her feel like we were together. We didn’t go out enough as a couple. She did say she didn’t want to be a boring house wife. She also said at the time that maybe she was going through what I went through after my mum died. No one has died on her but her dad is sick and she is the same age I was when I split with her. I also know she texted a few guys after we split but while I was still at home but is adamant she never cheated. I believe her.
Anyway, I’m sure I’ve left loads out but I want to know what you guys think. Is there hope? What should I do? Continue looking after myself and hope? She hasn’t mentioned divorce. Still uses my surname. Don’t know what to do.
Thanks all!


M 35 W 31
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Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
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bashy Offline OP
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I probably sound like an idiot from what I have said above. However, once we got back together after I had been an idiot by texting women etc I really did give 110% to our relationship ie I was faithful, became a good husband, dad, and in fact her mum, who absolutely hated me, is now devasted we have split up. All her family are.
I mentioned the 25 minute phone call the other day. We mainly talked our daughter and again brought up that she'd told our little one that mummy and daddy would always be friends. Ofcourse, that hurt but I remember the 'don't believe what they say and less than 50% of what they do' mantra.
Then yesterday I got a text from WAW. She's been contacting me quite a lot these past few weeks. 95% of the time it's do to with little one but I've been taking on board all the tips on this forum. No contact first etc.
Anyway, it was to say that she had been asked for ID in the supermarket for buying alcohol. She's 31 but the till girl thought she was 22. She was delighted with this and left me a ;-) at the end of the message. I left it a bit before texting back 'Show off :-)'. Then she responded by saying I was 'jealous haha'. I didn't respond back.
Then about an hour later she rang me after I text asking for her driver's number as we had just sold our car. I flirted a little on the phone but not over the top. Then said goodbye first.
Sooooo, I get the feeling there is hope here. But I'm trying not to get too excited. Such a long way to go but really am trying to change things for the better for ME. I'm just hoping she sees these changes and brings up our marriage again but in a positive talk.
Thanks for anyone who reads this.


M 35 W 31
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Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
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bashy Offline OP
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Posted this on another thread but thought I'd update.
I've been following Sandi2's 37 Rules. No contact first. Trying to say goodbye in a phone call. etc etc
We're getting along brilliantly when we do chat usually to do with daughter.
ANyway, I was getting joke texts from my daughter's phone earlier then realised it was the WAW doing it with daughter beside her. I'm collecting her for hore riding lessons but we'd been organising me doing the pick up and dropping off.
ANyway, I rang wife to say was that her messaging on daughter's phone and she was laughing with daughter beside. I was laughing hard too. It was funny. It was like the old days. We've the same sense of humour.
Anyway, I know if I was to mention this she'd retreat into her shell saying I need to get over things. We're over etc.
I kinda feel that we're getting along great because I haven't brought up our separation/relationship in well over a month now. But I get the feeling she's saying to herself..."Great. He's finally accepted we're over. Now we can get along as friends without hassle and the way I want it".
Anyway, I ended the call first as recommended but told her if she needed to talk (as her dad is sick) to just ring. I'm here if she needs to chat and get things off her chest. I hope this isn't going to far.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
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Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
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First off, sorry that you find yourself on here. You won't find a better group of people to help you in your marriage.

Next, have you read DB or DR? You have to read those in order to understand the concepts presented here. That list of rules is actually in the book. Sandi is a poster who just retyped the whole thing.


M-43 W-40
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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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bashy Offline OP
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Hi MrBond. Thank you for your kind words. DB just arrived in the post today and I'm a quarter of the way through. Just wish my WAW could read it!


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
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Bashy, sorry that you are in your situation.

I think you need to consider the difference between expectations and hopes. You can have any of one right now and you always need the other.

One leads to disappointment and one leads to happiness and joy.

I'll leave it to you to figure out which is which.


me: 45 W:45
M 20 years
T 22 years
S14, S13, S11, D9
BD 2/28/14
D papers served 3/3/14
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quick update to previous post: You CAN'T have any of one right now and you always need the other.


me: 45 W:45
M 20 years
T 22 years
S14, S13, S11, D9
BD 2/28/14
D papers served 3/3/14
I moved out 3/15/14
MC start 4/2/14
I moved in 6/2/14
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bashy Offline OP
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I expect the worst and hope for the best. How's that for an answer! LOL
I'm the eternal pessimist but really trying to be positive especially in front of her. I WILL NOT let my guard slip.
I just cannot understand how we get along so well yet we aren't together... Honestly, we were laughing aware so hard at the pretend text messages earlier.
But I suppose I do understand. As said previously, we didn't go out too much as a couple or with our friends as a couple. I'm more of a homebird than her. Plus she said she didn't fancy me anymore despite by great weight loss.
However, I have been going out more, enjoying my friends more etc and she is aware of this. But I'm doing this for me. Not her. Ofcourse, I do hope she sees the changing me and decides to give it another go.
Perhaps it's telling she hasn't asked for a divorce but some of my friends say that is because of the cost. But I don't buy that. Also, she hasn't changed her surname at all ie FB etc. It's all very confusing.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
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She may not want D, but she does want change. This comment sticks out so far: "She warned me we were passing ships"

How can you do your part to change that? What else was there that you can change to improve things besides being less of a homebird? Some of what you write has the feel of "it is just like it used to be". I'm guessing because you are taking some of the pressure off with what you are doing. But she wants changes.


me: 45 W:45
M 20 years
T 22 years
S14, S13, S11, D9
BD 2/28/14
D papers served 3/3/14
I moved out 3/15/14
MC start 4/2/14
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bashy Offline OP
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Apologies I didn't thank you for your first comments Nettles.
Well, I suppose not being a homebird and perhaps changing my work pattern to day shift instead of night (even though it's a drastic pay cut - although I would do this for our marrage).
As you picked up on, we hardly saw each other during the week then when the chance came at the weekend I would have rather sat in than go out. That is now changing but the problem is is that we no longer live together/are separated so how do I rectify this? All I can do is show that I am going out more with friends etc which I have been doing. The most recent was on Sunday when she asked what I was up to that day/night. I said I was going out. She asked who with. I said friends to a house party. Why is she asking that if she doesn't care? Or is she being polite?
Before I found this site I did the 'wrong' things. Asking her to reconsider, being needy etc. When I pushed too hard she said she didn't want to hurt my feelings but that she didn't fancy me anymore.
I found that difficult to take but hard to believe. We had been having a good sex life. Not the most adventurous but still regular and she seemed satisfied. Why have regular sex (which I didn't always push for) if she wasn't fancying me anymore?
These are questions I'm still struggling with but I'm trying to put to the back of my mind as I turn my life around.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
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bashy Offline OP
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Arrived to my former home this morning to collect my daughter for horse riding lesson. WAW was her courteous self of recent times - asking how I was, was I looking forward to a holiday I have booked with a friend for this weekend, would I like a cup of tea, among other things.
I was positive in my responses, ensured she asked questions and started conversations and I didn't interrupt but looked at her when she was talking to me, listening intently.
It was actually nice for me not to interrupt and give my opinions on her worries about work. I just made sure I listened.
Fingers crossed I am proving to her very slowly that I am changing for myself and that she likes these changes.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
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bashy Offline OP
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Further progress? It's he middle of the night here and the WAW has rang me at work to say there is a large spider in the bedroom and she needs some courage to kill it!
I tried to reassure her but played as cool as I could.
Surely someone who doesn't love you any more doesn't telephone in the middle of the night? Why not wake her brother or dad?
Thoughts?


M 35 W 31
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Married 3 years
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bashy Offline OP
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It seems I am constantly posting these past few hours.
So I contacted my wife to say if she wanted I could stay tomorrow night (on sofa) as I have a night off. Peace of mind for her because she really is THAT scared of spiders. I said I could get the house sorted for our planned sale ie painting, clearing out rubbish etc. She replied: "Yes please!".
I said I would look for the spider in the morning and if I catch it I'll just stay in my own place but she replied "no need. It means you dont have to be travelling up and down" for daughter.
So how should I approach staying over? Am I wrong for offering? Help please!! LOL


M 35 W 31
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Completely wrong for offering. You want to come over to stay on the sofa? Have some boundaries, and some self-respect. She says "jump", you say "how high?" She smiles and says, "I got him right where I want him."
Tell her you're sorry you can't stay over, you have other plans.


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As mentioned, welcome!

Originally Posted By: bashy
Just wish my WAW could read it!


Just FYI, Remember DB/DR is for you, and helping you. Don't share it with her.

Have you seen a counselor? Individual or as a couple?


Me: 43
M: 10y
S:15
ILYBINILWY 2/18/13
W moved out 2/18/13
Filed for D: 2/17/13
Got DB: 2/20/13
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bashy Offline OP
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Jeez. Do I sound that bad huh? And I thought I was doing well by not contacting first on phone. Being more confident etc


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Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
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bashy Offline OP
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Hi wounded. Thanks for the response. We talked counselling but she just thought if she "loved me, but wasn't in love with me" there was no point. I didn't argue. Didn't want to get needy etc.
As for the book. I know it is for me alone. My point was that there are so many elements in it that I think she could learn from.


M 35 W 31
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Moved out Dec 13
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it's not your job to teach HER what to think or how to act, but to show change on YOUR end.

She won't return to the marriage unless she believes the marriage can be better/different than before. YOU have to demonstrate that change, and make no mistake, she is watching.

Next time she calls about a spider, you can validate the fact that they are gross or scary and you "get it" but don't offer to go over. IF She asks you to come over, I'd probably do it a time or two b/c I think it's a reason FOR a man in your life. Meaning, the protective function of having a man around, is really very nice.

But the offer from you was a bit much, especially since you then relegated yourself to a Sherpa role with "I'll sleep on the couch..." (why not let Her sleep there so YOU can "hunt" for the spider?...semi joking here)

You're expecting way too much too soon. Focus ONLY On your changes and NOT on her reactions.

The "secret" here is to change for YOU b/c you want to be a better man...become a man only a fool would leave.

And being a great attentive father is very attractive, and it's necessary too. So be the best dad you can be...(without watching to see your wife's reaction)

and give this a lot more time. A whole lot more time. Remember,

small consistent changes + sufficient time = change she can believe in...


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
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bashy Offline OP
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Thank you. The sort of response I was looking for ie someone to tell me where I am going right or wrong.
She definitely knows I'm an attentive dad. She told me this when splitting with me... that I was a great husband and dad. But she obviously wants/needs more.
If I do stay tonight (and I'm obviously going against your good advice if I do) I want her to the see the changes I have made. And I want to reiterate that I have made changes for ME.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
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Originally Posted By: bashy
Hi wounded. Thanks for the response. We talked counselling but she just thought if she "loved me, but wasn't in love with me" there was no point. I didn't argue. Didn't want to get needy etc.
As for the book. I know it is for me alone. My point was that there are so many elements in it that I think she could learn from.


But have YOU seen a counselor?


Me: 43
M: 10y
S:15
ILYBINILWY 2/18/13
W moved out 2/18/13
Filed for D: 2/17/13
Got DB: 2/20/13
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zew Offline
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Quote:
The sort of response I was looking for ie someone to tell me where I am going right or wrong.

You will get that advice here. Please consider it. Often, it will seem the opposite of what you think you should do.
Quote:
She definitely knows I'm an attentive dad. She told me this when splitting with me... that I was a great husband and dad. But she obviously wants/needs more.
When she talks to you, listen for the clues as to what she thinks is missing. If you think there is something in what she says that you think would make you a better person, regardless of whether you ever R, then you should plan to make the changes. For you, not for her.
Quote:
If I do stay tonight (and I'm obviously going against your good advice if I do) I want her to the see the changes I have made. And I want to reiterate that I have made changes for ME.
You shouldn't be rescuing her. She has chosen to leave; there are consequences; it's not your job to soften them. Do not talk about your changes. She will resent it because you are only making them now, after "ruining her life". And whatever you do, don't tell her you made changes for you, because that's just you being selfish. And it's all about her in her mind right now. Now is not your moment. Hate to say this, but you will be at this for months and months. This will be hard, and painfully slow. Make your changes for you. Quietly. Patiently. She'll notice, but won't care for a long time. And you will come to realize that since you are making the changes for you, that it becomes less important that she validate or recognize them.

Stop talking about you and your changes. Communicate with actions only.

You must become a model patience and stability. You are working on your long term life plan. You will not be driven by emotional reaction to her ever changing moods. Her spiders do not figure into your plan, not even a little bit.

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bashy Offline OP
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Thanks zew. Really appreciate it. We chatted a bit today and she is asking have I been out much then hit me with "So have you met any women yet?" She said it with a smile - like a 'she smiles, making me smile' kind of thing, if that makes sense.
I've no idea why she asked it but I just said, that I've been out with a few friends just having a good time with them.
God, I'm awful at playing things cool and trying not to care.
But I suppose I've come a long way from begging, pleading etc


M 35 W 31
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Quote:
I've no idea why she asked it but I just said, that I've been out with a few friends just having a good time with them.

Typically, the WAW needs to know that you are still around as a fallback in case her experimental new life situations don't work out for her. If you get too comfortable on your own, she may get nervous.

Your answer was perfect. Keep some mystery there, after all, it's you enjoying your life and she has chosen to remove herself from that for now. Your objective is to make yourself understand (very hard, and will take work on yourself) that you will be able to survive without W. When you have convinced yourself, she will also detect that, and may sense some loss.

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Thank you again zew. I haven't been forthcoming at all about what I'm doing although she knows I continue at the gym which I've been doing for nearly 3 years. I am beginning to realise I can move on but it's finding that balance of knowing that and not seeming too aloof. Perhaps that's were I'm going wrong.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
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Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
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Originally Posted By: zew
Quote:
I've no idea why she asked it but I just said, that I've been out with a few friends just having a good time with them.

Typically, the WAW needs to know that you are still around as a fallback in case her experimental new life situations don't work out for her. If you get too comfortable on your own, she may get nervous.

To me, this^^ is ALL more mind reading. If she asks where you are going, this is an OPPORTUNITY to show the GAL without pointing it out. You can keep some mystery but don't be rude. It's NOT a bad sign that she asked, it might be positive, it might mean nothing. So don't give it a thought. But never be rude or curt or point out the obvious "I don't know where YOU are going and therefore you don't get to know where I am going"...sounds petty and punitive.

Also, it's NOT your job to "show her the consequences" of her choices OR to "teach her a lesson". LIFE does that. It's not a spouses job to be a therapist either, but yes we are to be their friends...not buddies, I mean when together you should be a friend.

Another thing my DB coach said that freaked me out at first, was to "listen like a lover" as in NO judgement and no advice...validate and show concern. It works. And in the end, DBing is about doing what works.

Your answer was perfect. Keep some mystery there, after all, it's you enjoying your life and she has chosen to remove herself from that for now. Your objective is to make yourself understand (very hard, and will take work on yourself) that you will be able to survive without W. When you have convinced yourself, she will also detect that, and may sense some loss.



I don't think you're "wrong" to go over there if she has a phobia about spiders. Obviously it can't be a habit but one visit, does not a habit make.

Besides, Would you prefer she ask someone else?
(That IS an option you may Not want her to consider, after all)....

but I can't see backing out now and not looking unreliable. So go, but either treat it light heartedly with some humor (and your d is watching too, so let her see you as a hero. But with a sense of humor...and note, How our children see their fathers DEFINITELY affects how mothers see them.)

OR maybe buy her one of those clear "bug catchers" that [censored] them up and then she can empty the bug/spiders into a toilet. When my h left me with our d's still at home, WE had one, thank God b/c we USED that a lot. I think we got it at Bed/Bath & Beyond...(I need another one for when h isn't around b/c ours broke...probably from over use).

Do you feel clearer about your path? And btw, if I recall correctly, one thing you two were missing was couple time and you both worked at odd "missing each other" hours...did I get that right? It's easy to confuse other situations but when you put info into your signature block, it really helps us recall in just two seconds...

Assuming that was the main issue, then you need to demonstrate having MORE "free for fun" time now. A schedule change at work, and or, the more you do something with your friends OR NEW Friends are great to have now, no one reminds you of your situation and you get stimulated in different ways and it brings out other qualities in you too...ALSO do things with your d, one on one with her)...the more you spend time with your d, the better for you both AND the more your w will note that you made an actual tangible change...for the better.

Sign up for a class one night a week or one weekend a month. Volunteer somewhere, DO SOMETHING NEW and different...it will show change on your end.
Say nothing of it, UNLESS your w asks. Then be brief and answer her, and move along to another topic so it won't look as if you are watching for her reaction. Plus, she'll need time to ponder what these things mean. HER FEAR is that if you two reconcile, you will revert to the old ways. Don't gloss over that fear...it's crucial for her to eventually trust that your changes are real and lasting.

As for counseling, of course YOU should be going. For YOU....and yes, She'll notice that YOU went, regardless of whether she is.
Not to mention that she may be getting some counseling and not telling you yet. But Good grief..SHE is not relevant to what you want to work on. Do you get that?

You want to be the best man you can be...how is SHE related to that? She's not. She will be an indirect beneficiary of your improvements, and if you reconcile she'll be a direct beneficiary...but it's NOT about her. It's only about you.

I went to counseling a lot more than my h did... thank GOD I did or I would not have made it. My DB coach was also a Godsend.

So I had my own IC, plus a DB coach (about 15 sessions with her, btw, so it wasn't a one time deal, but a lot of changing my views, over more than a year)...

and I attended a personal growth workshop that I had been to decades earlier for a "refresher course"... and that was SO EXCELLENT, (several other DBers have attended it as well and so far ALL have given it great reviews. Calling it 'life changing" is not an exaggeration.

So anyhow, then when we began piecing, we both attended Retrovaille, which is a weekend retreat for couples in marital crisis. The Catholic church started it, but you do not have to be Catholic to attend (my h isn't) and they have interdenominational ones and there was NO doctrine or "Catholic dogma" in our workshop at all. "Team" Couples told us their stories of their marital woes and most of them had such horrific problems that ours paled in comparison (such as losing a child or facing cancer AND an affair, etc.) They were inspiring.

You may be able to get your w to attend that, "for communication purposes" or to "make things easier on the child", and although it's a bit of a ruse to get her there, it won't hurt. Seriously, it's a good retreat weekend, no matter who you are.

Retrovaille has an impressive record for helping troubled marriages. We went with 24 other couples, 8 of whom were already in the process of divorcing, when they attended. Others were like us, either separated, and or strongly considering ending our marriages.

After 3-4 years, I think 19-20 of the couples are still together, out of 25. Considering how troubled we ALL were when we went, that's pretty remarkable.

The personal growth workshop I attended years ago, and then again more recently, is in Philadelphia now. It used to be on the west coast too, but anyhow, it helps

YOU grow/improve individually and obviously that makes you a better parent, better partner, better worker, better person as a whole. It gives you a lot of clarity and a path towards your goals.

When I first went many years ago, I went without my h. At the time it was mainly b/c we were not sure "we" would like it or that it would be worth it, since it cost money and my h was reluctant, so I went first.

Well, Thank GOD I went alone b/c I had issues with my MIL i would not have raised if my h had been there, among other private matters I would not have shared in front of him....anyhow, I think it's inhibiting to go with a spouse to EE, but I got so much out of it, that h saw this, so HE went a few months later, by himself!

That was not typical of h, at all (we were both in the military and "touchy feely" things did not get discussed much. My boss thought it was hilarious, but he was in reality very supportive).

Anyhow, h saw the changes in me and that made him want to go. (Kind of like how we want your wife to notice YOUR changes, but without you mentioning a tactic you are trying)...just real change.

My h called me during that workshop weekend when he went, and said that the workshop "was the best gift [he] had ever gotten"...

Then later on, we went together, to help the new participants.

That long workshop weekend when we were together there, bonded us so much, so deeply, that even decades later, it was how close we felt THEN, how deeply bonded we felt THEN, that motivated me to DB for so long. I knew we had "it" within us to be that close again...

(BTW, IF you are interested, check out "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia, aka "EE".
It's not Landmark and it's NOT EST, both of which I have attended also. EE was for me, the most profound individual growth experience I've ever had, next to becoming a parent. And I'm a better mother for it, as well. Since many people have gotten lots out of Landmark and or EST, I won't criticize those experiences, or discredit them. I will simply say that for me, Essential Experience was deeper, more profoundly changing, and it did not focus on recruitment.

(Also it's cheaper. OMG considering that I've gone back several times now as a "team" member, basically getting refresher "courses" at no cost, it's very cheap. Over the years that has added up to about 10 long weekends, but only the first one cost me anything. Wow, I just realized that).

Anyhow, I am grateful we had all these resources. And a bit proud of my efforts at utilizing them.

What else are you working on for YOU to become the man you always wanted to become?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Originally Posted By: zew
Quote:
The sort of response I was looking for ie someone to tell me where I am going right or wrong.

You will get that advice here. Please consider it. Often, it will seem the opposite of what you think you should do.
Quote:
She definitely knows I'm an attentive dad. She told me this when splitting with me... that I was a great husband and dad. But she obviously wants/needs more.
When she talks to you, listen for the clues as to what she thinks is missing. If you think there is something in what she says that you think would make you a better person, regardless of whether you ever R, then you should plan to make the changes. For you, not for her.
Quote:
If I do stay tonight (and I'm obviously going against your good advice if I do) I want her to the see the changes I have made. And I want to reiterate that I have made changes for ME.


You shouldn't be rescuing her. She has chosen to leave; there are consequences; it's not your job to soften them.


Going over there for her AND THE CHILD is not really rescuing her like paying extra money to cover her new car would be...

Plus, if you refuse to go now, you are 1) unreliable b/c you broke your word; and 2) you will appear punitive.

I can't see how you can back out now, without it being weird AND OR a negative. Just don't keep doing it unless there's a good reason (like she invites you to dinner..., which would be a positive NOT to be blown.

When you do interact with her for whatever reason, see it as an opportunity for her to see the new you WITHOUT you mentioning a thing.



Do not talk about your changes. She will resent it because you are only making them now, after "ruining her life".

mind reading and projecting again. Every situation is different and not all WASs are alike..


And whatever you do, don't tell her you made changes for you, because that's just you being selfish.


I disagree with this^^^. Aside from more mind reading, what reason CAN he give if the changes are not for him? For HER? That's not true change; it's a tactic that won't last...

He can say, IF & ONLY IF SHE COMMENTS, and assuming it's not an insult that she says but merely noting a change in him for the better

thank her for noticing but add that YOU "always meant to work on this" and that you are "glad to be doing it now"...and if she says "AH but too little too late!"

he can say "well, better late than never AND "IF I had it to do over again, there are many things I'd do differently"---this statement shows change on your end, it does not escalate the issues into an argument, it does not make your comments into defensive remarks.

Speak without offending, listen without defending.

And the reality will be unsaid, but it's out there....someone will benefit from YOUR changes with the new improved you.....and if it's not her, then you and -- some OW....will benefit.

That will probably bother her. The idea that my h would again be the man he once was with me, but with some OW, actually motivated me to give him another chance when he wanted to reconcile (at that point I had sort of become the WAS).

Though it may come out as anger, which is not unreasonable when you think of HER point of view, it's still true that you are becoming an improved man.

And since she wanted changes in you to come, how can she not help but wonder if you may have just become the exact man she needs?...and you are the father of her child as well...You want her to second guess her choices!



And it's all about her in her mind right now. Now is not your moment. Hate to say this, but you will be at this for months and months. This will be hard, and painfully slow. Make your changes for you. Quietly. Patiently. She'll notice, but won't care for a long time. And you will come to realize that since you are making the changes for you, that it becomes less important that she validate or recognize them.

Stop talking about you and your changes. Communicate with actions only.

You must become a model patience and stability. You are working on your long term life plan.


^^ makes sense. Have you been talking about your changes? I didn't notice that. But stop it if you were.


You will not be driven by emotional reaction to her ever changing moods. Her spiders do not figure into your plan, not even a little bit.


You can do this. I think there's hope for you guys. Don't rush things. there's a huge downside to taking things too fast or pressuring, whereas there is almost no downside to slowly building a foundation for a long lasting loving marriage.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 628
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25. I seem to have touched a nerve.

Quote:
Quote:
And whatever you do, don't tell her you made changes for you, because that's just you being selfish.


I disagree with this^^^. Aside from more mind reading, what reason CAN he give if the changes are not for him? For HER? That's not true change; it's a tactic that won't last...

What I'm suggesting is that he doesn't want to go and say "Hey look, I've changed, and I did it for me."
At least in my case, that goes down the "Yes, it's all about you" path.
It's better to show change than to proclaim change.

It's a completely different situation if she notices the changes and asks why he did it. Then it would be fine to say he did it for himself.
But that's not how I read the original post.

And yes, if you've committed to spider watch, don't reneg now.

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Thank you so much for your advice. It really helps.
So the night went well. I played things close to my chest, didn't follow her around like a lost puppy AND killed the spider when it was spotted the next morning in a manly fashion lol
WAW said to d did she like daddy staying. Then when d was gone WAW asked me in a normal fashion was I happy now, was I now over her and was I no longer upset like I was when I left at New Years. I said yes, things were gd and then left it at that.
I have promised myself I will now get on with things for me - I like the idea of taking guitar lessons and starting yoga. But I also plan on continuing to stay aloof ie no calling on phone unless daughter issues and will say no if she asks me to stay again.
I hope this is me on the right track.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
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So a bad day today. Got a call from W to have breakfast at horse riding place a good 90 minutes b4 D's lesson. I agreed. Then when we arrived complained she had to go early for a wake for a friend of a friend. Tried to give advice. A big no no. Shouldn't have said anything. She told D she'd see her on horse for just 5 mins. Then asked could I leave D to in laws even though it wasn't my turn. I sighed and said this. Another no no. She complained she'd done a lot of driving favours for me this week. I breathed inwardly and tried to be the better person. Not a problem I said it was just that I had plans after she offered to take D early for me today as I'm away on holiday tomorrow and needed a few things done.
All ok then. However she then decided she couldn't stay for 5 mins to watch D as she wanted to get ready for wake. Again I played it cool but was angry. I feel she makes promises then breaks them. But I said nothing. Anyway. As she left she offered to pick me up from airport next week. I continued to be positive and said Ty.
Soooo. I've now realised that despite my W initiating things this week and us getting on great, I need to go dark properly. It's difficult when you grasp at any time your W seems to be reaching out. Reading the positive outcomes on this site has also gotten my hopes up.
So I'm going to go on holiday and finish the DB book and really take on board all it tells me. I need to be strong. On a positive though, I feel my W is enjoying seeing me otherwise y ring for breakfast plus offer to pick me up next week.
We shall see....


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
Joined: Apr 2014
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bashy Offline OP
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Not sure if I should have done this, but I'm on a holiday with a good mate of mine which I booked when WAW gave me the news of splitting last year.
Anyway, I'm currently reading Michele's DB book wich is great.
However, I'm unable to text my D so sent her a goofy pic of me in my apartment to my wife's email. I debated doing this but wanted my D to see I was thinking of her. So the WAW gets back to me saying her and D laughed, then proceeded to engage in conversation, jokingly, via email. It was all pleasant but nice. But I made sure I was the one that ended the chat. This is another little change I'm proud off. I would have ended up letting the convo. continue until it died out.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
Joined: Apr 2006
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Originally Posted By: zew
25. I seem to have touched a nerve.

Quote:
Quote:
And whatever you do, don't tell her you made changes for you, because that's just you being selfish.


I disagree with this^^^. Aside from more mind reading, what reason CAN he give if the changes are not for him? For HER? That's not true change; it's a tactic that won't last...


ZEW,

No, you did not touch a nerve. I just disagreed, and I'm very direct. In fact, come to think of it, I think I'd actually tell you if you touched a nerve... cool

What I'm suggesting is that he doesn't want to go and say "Hey look, I've changed, and I did it for me."
At least in my case, that goes down the "Yes, it's all about you" path.
It's better to show change than to proclaim change.

It's a completely different situation if she notices the changes and asks why he did it. Then it would be fine to say he did it for himself.
But that's not how I read the original post.

And yes, if you've committed to spider watch, don't reneg now.


Total agreement the changes are NOT to be brought up by him, ever.

There are various ways to address changes if you KNOW you have made them and she's choosing not to see that. If that is the case, we can help you respond.

so, how is the "Killer Spider Watch" going?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 273
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bashy Offline OP
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Hi 25. Still on holiday but have not had contact with WAW since the picture I emailed a few days back.
As for 'spider watch', we shall see if she asks again at sone point but I aim to not offer again.
I'm quite proud of not contacting her on a regular basis. I definitely feel that is important so that WAW does not feel pressured in any way. She knows how I feel but I will not pursue in any way.
My problems do occur when she asks me to have lunch with her and D or the most recent time when she offered to pick me up from the airport this weekend. Should I say no thanks or say thank you, that would be great? I'm worried that the way she has been interacting is a positive sign but that if I keep saying no then I am jeopardising things.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
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Bashy,

What are you GAL now? Not that you "plan" on doing "later", but what have you actually started?

Assuming that the answer is "not a lot yet", then I'd just urge you to make things happen in your life. It's a lesson we learn a bit late I guess but it really is a life lesson for US.

WE are in charge of our lives and our own happiness.

IF you come to truly believe that^^ last sentence, truly, it changes you...

From what your w can see, I think, you're in better shape (what does a "stone" weigh, btw? You mentioned losing "two stones" and I chuckled b/c I have no idea what that amounts to).

Since she has outright told you she does not "fancy" you, which I think means she's not feeling the chemistry but she "loves you as a person", it means you need to re-create that in the r.

But first let me ask you, do you think you guys once had good chemistry, or has the R always been medium temperature? I note you lived together a long time before marrying, and it was after your d was born.

I'm American and I know the UK is somewhat different, but my immediate question when I read that, was "What took you so long?" And inwardly I felt that your m was probably "okay" b/c it did not sound very enriched.

You've both left each other before, if I recall right. The question I truly mean is, were you ever both IN LOVE with each other, as far as you know?

Did you say she only told you she loved you, well after the marriage or living together?

Okay this matters b/c if you once had the "real deal", it is much easier to recall what worked and what didn't.

If you never "really had IT" as a couple, then you need to make new paths b/c there are no old ones to return to.

Based on her comments, I'm betting that her biggest fear connected to a reconciliation, is that she'll' "waste her life as a boring housewife" and or, live a life without passion.

Is that^^ more or less the main thing?

Having little free time together is a huge obstacle to creating a closer M.

My suggestions are that you get IC for yourself, and see if down the road, you two can attend "Retrovaille", which i mentioned at length earlier. (I think I posted it here on this thread, but let me know if not).

That's for down the road OR IF you think she'd attend "to learn tools for handling co-parenting", I don't believe it could harm your r. For now, just research it in your area.

Keep the mystery going. I believe if she thinks she might lose you to OW and your changes are real, i.e. you have become the man she wanted you to become,

you'll see a change in her reaction to you. That means you must GAL asap.

Tell me something you've joined or started or signed up for, and if there is nothing, aim to repair that THIS month (as in April).

No more "Mr homebody" b/c she associates that with boredom and lack of passion.

And life is short. She does not want to be with or become a spectator in life. She wants to be with a participant in life. Make sense?

Have you changed your schedule yet? I know you said it's a "drastic pay cut" but here's the thing.'

IMO, at some point you have to get a day job, b/c you'll either never reconcile but need to meet OWs and friends and I can't see how that works if you are never awake when 90% of other people are...

OR you will reconcile and she'll have her nights alone again, which she clearly does not want. Plus you'll have more time with your d.

IF I were you, I'd be looking for day jobs that pay as well as you can find...regardless of what your w is doing.

I mean, how can you reconcile without changing that schedule of yours?

Keep on keeping on and I'll post more later...

I think you're on the right track for how you interact. You just need to be DOING MORE when she is not around you, FOR you...and for your changes.

A little mystery would be GOOD for you (and maybe for her to see that you are a good catch, sexy to OWs, would be good. Dress up, get a NEW Cologne

(newness means mystery and change and it's such an easy one to make, plus it will make her wonder)...trust me on this. I'm very scent oriented and a lot of women are...

This is just an example of change you can demonstrate, but that isn't life shattering, yet will be noticed...

You need to have a very "busy meeting new interesting people, doing FUN things and going to fascinating places, so Ta Ta for now"...type of attitude.

Make sense?

((( )))


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 273
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bashy Offline OP
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Hi 25,
What have I started? That's a good q. I booked a holiday for myself, bought a new car but as for the gym nothing. I plan on starting Spanish lessons and guitar lessons when I return from holiday but yes, I should have started these a good while back.

When I say I lost two stones that equates to approx. 28 pounds.

I do believe we did and still do have great chemistry. We still laugh a lot at things when chatting. But as I said, my 'homebody' persona has affected our marriage. It took a while to get married simply due to the costs involved but went for it after we got back together about 5 years ago. My W is adamant that she truly loved me on our marriage day and I believe her. She said her sister said she did not love her H when they got married so, as I say, I believe her. As for telling each other 'I love you'... We said this continually from the beginning of our R.

As for the boring housewife comment. I believe thàt is the main thing of why things broke down. She always mentioned my working hours as affecting our R but I ignored this because my wages are so much better compared to if I worked normal hours. However I am seriously considering changing this b/c even if we don't get back together how will I meet someone else?!?!

I will say that my whole clothes/cologne issue is a change I have made and she has commented on that. But I did this for me b/c it makes me feel gd. This will continue.

I hope this has helped you understand my sitch more. And again, thank you sooo much for your help and support. More of this would be appreciated :-)


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
Joined: Apr 2006
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Originally Posted By: bashy
Hi 25,
What have I started? That's a good q. I booked a holiday for myself, bought a new car but as for the gym nothing. I plan on starting Spanish lessons and guitar lessons when I return from holiday but yes, I should have started these a good while back.

When you are doing these things and making time for them, that proves, (whether she says so or not, and it's not THE point anyhow), but yes it "proves" that more time would be available for the next r to be attended to. That means you can have & nurture a R with a woman, whom you/we hope is your wife.

That "evidence" needs to be front and center when you interact. That's to SHOW CHANGE ON YOUR END. If you like the Spanish class & guitar lessons, it'll be harder for her to say "but it's just a tactic". Make sense?

Obviously, if you reconcile, you'll need to keep doing some of those on your own b/c you're independent and you bring something to the table,
(& b/c these are not merely tactics to gain her back, but real interests of yours b/c you are not a "homebody who puts no effort into life but going to work and coming home to 'rest' anymore...)
but hopefully she'll either join you on one of them, or you'll decide together on a class.
It's very bonding (& fun) to learn something new, together. I HIGHLY recommend it.

When I say I lost two stones that equates to approx. 28 pounds.

Good for you! Are you working out too, (or just doing the "OMG I'm in grief/I can't eat 'diet'"? That 'diet' is effective but horrid.


I do believe we did and still do have great chemistry. We still laugh a lot at things when chatting. But as I said, my 'homebody' persona has affected our marriage. It took a while to get married simply due to the costs involved but went for it after we got back together about 5 years ago.

IF SHE would say the same thing^^, about delaying a marriage, and not a word about doubts or apathy on either end, then it sounds reasonable.

I mean, it's not the passion I like to see...And btw, to ME, having a chid with someone, is a way BIGGER commitment than taking vows. So when I see couples with kids not yet married, I tend to think "it's their R that they are Not sure of...and I think they divorce even more than typical couples. Just a thought, based on experience here. I don't have other empirical evidence. Just believe that strongly....for what it's worth, which isn't much now.


My W is adamant that she truly loved me on our marriage day and I believe her.

She said her sister said she did not love her H when they got married so, as I say, I believe her. As for telling each other 'I love you'... We said this continually from the beginning of our R.

How about NOT ever asking her that again, what she used to feel? See, there is no value in that question IF you want to reconcile. Do you get why?

The question & topic itself is a blatant form of pursuit. I think what you are really asking her, or implying, is that she still loves you, or should, and that she just doesn't know it yet or is hiding from it, or maybe she is lying and never did love you...

don't corner her into saying that, just so she doesn't worry about 'leading you on'.... Remember, the more you challenge her choices, the more she'll defend them. Same for the emotions.

As for the boring housewife comment. I believe thàt is the main thing of why things broke down. She always mentioned my working hours as affecting our R but I ignored this because my wages are so much better compared to if I worked normal hours. However I am seriously considering changing this b/c even if we don't get back together how will I meet someone else?!?!

You have to change this for those^^ very reasons. She told you (IN EFFECT) that "you don't have enough time for ME or our marriage." You ignored that, which you admit, b/c You chose money over time with her, even when she expressed her desire for you to choose her.
She knew the money was better by taking night shifts, but she wanted more time with you anyway.

For you to ignore her request, which came from a place of neglected love, has to have felt like a slap in the face to her. And it has to change before you can assume she'll want back in the m, AND STAYS back in...do you get that?

I mean, instead of saying she fears being a "boring housewife", change the word "boring" to the word "lonely"...

I will say that my whole clothes/cologne issue is a change I have made and she has commented on that. But I did this for me b/c it makes me feel gd. This will continue.

I'm glad the changes will continue.


I hope this has helped you understand my sitch more. And again, thank you sooo much for your help and support. More of this would be appreciated :-)


I think I do understand it. I'm just wondering what life changes you could have made that would have changed things, and I can see that altering your schedule is obviously required.

But that has not changed, correct? So in HER eyes, could she say that, to you, making more money is more important that being with her?

Don't scoff. MANY spouses who feel neglected, and are told that the schedule "pays better THIS way", are hearing "I don't want to PAY for more time with you, even if it means divorce".

And there are SOME WASs who say "IF I KNEW SHE'D take me back, then...." but that means 1) it's only a tactic to get her back and 2) you'd be back to the old schedule in a heartbeat and she'd be right back where she was, if you reconciled,

and 3) that down deep, you'd "prefer" being married to her, but when push comes to shove, more time together is simply not a priority for you.

This^^ is mind reading except that it's based on HER comments to you about being ships passing in the night. When I said that to my h, I meant an ultimatum.

(I did not "issue" an ultimatum, but that is what I felt I was doing.) Today I'm more direct.

Bottom line is you want your w to notice the changes AND wonder about how much better a partner you'll be soon...for someone...and how if it is an OW, that OW benefits by your wife's efforts.

Most wives do NOT enjoy the work they did, for the benefit of some OW.
Drives many of them nuts enough to MAYBE re-think their choice to leave...
OR maybe to think "leaving him triggered these changes...so maybe now it's safe to reconcile"...
so that the choice to leave was not 'wrong", it was helpful!
But now, staying apart makes less & less sense...that's what the secondary over all goal is, while the first over all goal is to LIVE YOUR LIFE BETTER and in more participating ways.

She did not want to be married to a spectator of life, b/c she prefers a participant.

Make sense? Aren't these changes good for YOU? If you believe that, then you're more likely to keep them going.

Good luck! You're in a better position than many here. Keep on keeping on.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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bashy Offline OP
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Hi 25. What if I do change my working hours and I don't get her back? I'll be left with a substantial drop in wages and no wife. At least with my wage now I can get my own place etc. if I change I'll be stuck living with my father and not enough money to buy my own place. Jeez, this is a huge risk. I'm scared.

I left daughter home today and chatted to WAW. Was really nice and pleasant but I kept the mystery about my holiday then left. It seems it's all I can do.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
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Originally Posted By: bashy
Hi 25. What if I do change my working hours and I don't get her back?

Um, hello? You just finished saying you won't be able to meet OW with your night shifts. Now you wonder if there is a guarantee of getting her back without a BIG change on your end. Boy does this sound familiar. First off, NONE of us EVER get any guarantee that our changes will get the WAS back. Nor will we get a guarantee of them staying with us...

Here's MY guarantee...I'm fairly sure you will NOT get her back without that change. And as for meeting OWs down the road, not sure how that will happen but what you KNOW, is that your night shift hurt your marriage. That is what you KNOW...


I'll be left with a substantial drop in wages and no wife.


So you've made your choice. The money IS what makes YOU feel safe & "happy", or "happier"...so admit it and pay the price. OR re-evaluate that choice.


At least with my wage now I can get my own place etc. if I change I'll be stuck living with my father and not enough money to buy my own place. Jeez, this is a huge risk. I'm scared.


Who wasn't scared? We all were damn terrified. You sure seem to boil it down to two hideous choices as if there is nothing you can do to change the equation. Surely SOME day jobs pay better than the day shift at your present job. (Yeah you'll have to LOOK!) It won't fall into your lap. But don't say "two ships passing in the night" KNOW that your job hours sukked for marriage, refuse to change that and then insist you want your m to work.

you don't get to have it all your way. (That's just life, and that's how it is for all of us).

I left daughter home today and chatted to WAW. Was really nice and pleasant but I kept the mystery about my holiday then left. It seems it's all I can do.



It seems all you WILL CHOOSE to do...Start owning that.

If I were your wife, I'd know that money was more important to you than taking a chance to pursue me by giving something up...and I'd be reluctant to want to feel like the 2nd choice much longer, which I believe she has been feeling.

Your comments make it apparent that while you do "prefer" her, ("eh? Kind of...")

she's not key to your happiness nearly as much as your decision to
1) not change shifts and
2) not try to change JOBS --- so you can have a good income AND a reasonable schedule.

YOU have made it a silly choice. Either or. But the simplest equation ("only THIS SHIFT and ONLY THIS JOB!") means that you can tell yourself you have done "all you can do"....ie not much, except to be more pleasant around her. Pretty convenient....


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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why don't you ask your wife what SHE thinks, (without pursuing or asking for a guarantee)?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2014
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bashy Offline OP
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Hi 25. Thank you for not holding back ;-). But I do appreciate it.

So I was one step ahead of you in a way lol. I have applied for a day shift role with my current company. I will be considered for it but it depends on (i) whether someone leaves on days and (ii) if they can replace me on nights as not many want to work the graveyard shift.
I really want to stay with these guys as they are fantastic to work for and there isn't a lot of jobs out there at present.

Secondly, I contacted my WAW and told her what I had done and said although I didn't need to tell her at all (as we are no longer together) I wanted to inform her so that it wasn't sprung on her if she needed me to come get the little one some morning after my night shift ended.

Anyway, the question which I was expecting came straight away.... "So what's brought this about?" she said.
I told her that I was struggling with being tired all the time, that I was having to turn down meeting friends for dinner/drinks/nights out etc because of my anti-social hours and that I was taking a huge pay cut to do it. However, I said that our D would always be the No 1 priority and nothing would impact in any way me being a part of her life as much as it's always been.
I asked how she was getting along and she proceeded to chat about her work and how she finds it difficult with the little one during the week as she feels guilty having someone babysit her if she needs to go out because she doesn't see her at the weekend. I made sure that I didn't interrupt her and told her she is doing a great job with D. I then ended the conversation as always.

Was the question from my WAW something you would have expected from her from what I've told you?


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
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Originally Posted By: bashy
Hi 25. Thank you for not holding back ;-). But I do appreciate it.

So I was one step ahead of you in a way lol. I have applied for a day shift role with my current company. I will be considered for it but it depends on (i) whether someone leaves on days and (ii) if they can replace me on nights as not many want to work the graveyard shift.
I really want to stay with these guys as they are fantastic to work for and there isn't a lot of jobs out there at present.

Have you really looked?


Secondly, I contacted my WAW and told her what I had done and said although I didn't need to tell her at all (as we are no longer together) I wanted to inform her so that it wasn't sprung on her if she needed me to come get the little one some morning after my night shift ended.

Anyway, the question which I was expecting came straight away.... "So what's brought this about?" she said.

I told her that I was struggling with being tired all the time, that I was having to turn down meeting friends for dinner/drinks/nights out etc because of my anti-social hours and that I was taking a huge pay cut to do it. However, I said that our D would always be the No 1 priority and nothing would impact in any way me being a part of her life as much as it's always been.


Why didn't you begin & end, with saying that you want more quality time for family and friends 7 GAL?

Your answer excluded her or your marital situation as a factor. How odd it must have sounded to her to hear you do exactly what she wanted, but not for her or anything remotely resembling HER , and you mentioned your d last, using the words "although"....which makes it seem like you'll have LESS time with her but is that true? If so, explain HOW you will make your d a priority if you're going to have less time for her. Are you? I thought just the opposite.

Plus, with HER (w's) schedule you can lessen her mother guilt if you can help her more, but if that's not the case, admit it! If time with your d was a reason FOR the night shift, address that too.


I asked how she was getting along and she proceeded to chat about her work and how she finds it difficult with the little one during the week as she feels guilty having someone babysit her if she needs to go out because she doesn't see her at the weekend.

?? You mean she only sees her then? Is there anything you can do to aid her or your d, with her situation? OR offer to?



I made sure that I didn't interrupt her and told her she is doing a great job with D. I then ended the conversation as always.

Was the question from my WAW something you would have expected from her from what I've told you?


Yes it is a question I expected.
She may have hoped you'd say "I did it so I'd have more time with the people in my life who don't work nights AND for all my GAL..." Instead you mentioned everything but her or GAL.

why? Were you so afraid of looking as if you were pursuing her? I get that, but I also get the sense that her love language is quality time...btw, read The Five Love Languages by Chapman when you get the chance. I recommend it for every couple.

maybe you'd have heard her better when she made the comments about passing ships and the homebody stuff.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2014
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bashy Offline OP
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Hi 25. I think I'm going to have to pay for your support here ;-)

I have looked for jobs but I'm a journalist by trade and Ireland is a small place. Nothing out there and they're churning out students by the bus load.

"I told her that I was struggling with being tired all the time, that I was having to turn down meeting friends for dinner/drinks/nights out etc because of my anti-social hours and that I was taking a huge pay cut to do it. However, I said that our D would always be the No 1 priority and nothing would impact in any way me being a part of her life as much as it's always been."

I told her that I would only take specific shifts so that it didn't impact daughter. I also told her that I wanted to tell her now incase she was planning on asking me for help down the line when she starts college soon and this messed up her plans. I said I'd always be there if she needed me to mind D at night shen she starts her classes. The reason I said about social life etc is because I want her to know that I have one now as she always complained I was a homebody.

"you mentioned your d last, using the words "although"...."

Apologies, I didn't mention D last or use the word 'although'.... just the way I typed it as I was trying to remember specifics of conversation.

"?? You mean she only sees her then? Is there anything you can do to aid her or your d, with her situation? OR offer to?"
I only see her at weekends but would love to go and see her every day but would that not mean I'm seeing WAW everyday. Arent I supposed to be giving her space?
If I say I'll be there all the time or whenever she needs me isn't that defeating the purpose or not giving her space without me always being there?

"Yes it is a question I expected.
She may have hoped you'd say "I did it so I'd have more time with the people in my life who don't work nights AND for all my GAL..." Instead you mentioned everything but her or GAL.

why? Were you so afraid of looking as if you were pursuing her?"


Exactly, I'm finding it real hard to find a balance of not looking like I'm chasing but also being there for her. If I had said about spending quality time together with people I loved isn't that too obvious that she knows I havent moved on and want back together?


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
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Bashy,

I'm not going to answer in detail until I read your thread all over again. I want to be sure I have all my facts before advising further.

But so you know, there will probably always be some leeway and room for debate on 4 things.

First, people will debate "pursuit versus neglect" arguments.

Second, people here will debate what cake eating is, and what is being a friendly LBS who shows he/she can change (and or, forgive)...versus a doormat.

Oh and thirdly, we all have to watch for the line between our wounded egos/false pride, and self respect. It can be a shifting, blurry line.

AND 4th, what's the difference between a healthy boundary and a punitive measure that we've justified with words like "fairness" or "teaching a lesson/showing the WAS the consequences of their choices"?

So you know, that ^^^ is NOT our job to do.

Life teaches lessons/shows consequences
...

Meanwhile, I hope this ^^ helps, while I do some more homework.

(((( ))))


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2014
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bashy Offline OP
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Thank you... again.
Just a side note, I've been reading over your comments previously and I forgot to respond to a question you asked about my weight (losing 24 pounds). I started working out shortly after we got married as one of the many ways I wanted to make myself look good but ensure my wife was attracted to me. Ofcourse, the resulting remark from her that she wasn't attracted to me anymore (although she only said this once) was baffling. Anyway, I await my homework ;-)


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
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Just remembered a convo. with WAW from a week or two ago. We were chatting away. Everything normal. We've been getting along great probably because I have been acting normal, confident, not being needy etc.
Anyway, WAW said something along the lines of it was good we are getting along and that it would be good in the future that if we each met someone she'd love it if we could effectively double date.
I thought to myself "WTF - as if". But replied calmly and with a smile... "That probably isn't a good idea as each of our partners probably wouldn't feel comfortable".
I wonder why she said that? Has she got OM? Is she delusional about her own sitch? I'm really not sure.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
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Originally Posted By: bashy
Just remembered a convo. with WAW from a week or two ago. We were chatting away. Everything normal. We've been getting along great probably because I have been acting normal, confident, not being needy etc.
Anyway, WAW said something along the lines of it was good we are getting along and that it would be good in the future that if we each met someone she'd love it if we could effectively double date.
I thought to myself "WTF - as if". But replied calmly and with a smile... "That probably isn't a good idea as each of our partners probably wouldn't feel comfortable".
I wonder why she said that? Has she got OM? Is she delusional about her own sitch? I'm really not sure.
\\


Spend ZERO TIME ON THIS QUESTIONS^^ b/c the fact is, WASs say wacky stuff all the time. They "blurt out" some thought that they put no energy or sensitivity into, and then they are stunned when we "go bonkers" on them (and prove them right for leaving. )

They filter nothing out, and often just "spitball" ideas like this^^ one, or "hey maybe we'll be living in a commune" type of remarks are just tossed out to their kids...!!!

I cannot explain her comment to you. I read nothing into it, except zero for insight into how you would feel hearing it...(I mean, really?)

Sure, it's POSSIBLE she has an OM.


So, what, if anything would that change in your course of action?
Nothing, correct?

Okay, so why spend any energy on something that is NOT likely AND NOT going to change your course of action? You still have your work to do.

Btw, I think your answer was close to perfect...

wonder what she'd have thought if you said something like "w, I don't know if You would feel comfortable around my new gf/OW but if you think so, maybe we'll try that someday..."

And if she were to ask you if you had found someone else, you could say "Oh, you mean one OW, specifically?"
cool


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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bashy Offline OP
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haha yes I wonder what she would say!!??

I certainly haven't been pondering on this as I only just remembered it a few hours ago. But thought it was interesting she said this.

Anyway, no contact for two days now. It's been tough but I will not call until Friday when I will text about collecting D. I aim to continue on the path of looking and smelling good, being positive, being confident in front of her - in fact I've been like this for about four months now and it feels good.

It's been that long actually since I made my last attempt at begging, pleading etc. Perhaps that's why she asked me last week: "Am I over her now?". I just told her "yep, all is good" and left it at that.

We're into month 6 since she told me of wanting to split. I have good and bad days. Hopefully the changes that I have made and are continuing to make will work. But I know one thing. I will not mention our R unless she brings it up - and hopefully when she does it is in some way positive.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
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Originally Posted By: bashy
haha yes I wonder what she would say!!??

I certainly haven't been pondering on this as I only just remembered it a few hours ago. But thought it was interesting she said this.

Anyway, no contact for two days now. It's been tough but I will not call until Friday when I will text about collecting D. I aim to continue on the path of looking and smelling good, being positive, being confident in front of her - in fact I've been like this for about four months now and it feels good.

It's been that long actually since I made my last attempt at begging, pleading etc. Perhaps that's why she asked me last week: "Am I over her now?". I just told her "yep, all is good" and left it at that.

This isn't a 2 x 4, but May I suggest you Not respond that way again? Can you see how you just sort of said you have given up. And healed...I know this seems counter intuitive again, b/c we say "do not pursue" and "give her space, don't show your neediness/pain", etc.


But to say it's "Sure its all good" and that you are over her, seems to be a bit much, b/c it's actively deceitful, plus and it really undermines your previous claims.
I am not saying you have to pursue her, but seems to me she's probing...
so pay more attention, please...Curious about how your fights usually began?

Bash, you know, you're always allowed to tell someone you're not comfortable answering them (and since you like being truthful, refusing to answer a question actually builds you more credibility b/c when you DO state your emotions, you're taking it seriously).
Maybe if she says something like "I'm getting better everyday in everyday" and leave it at that in an upbeat way. If she questions you more, or acts as if her choices had little or no impact on your heart, your goal is not to show that she did not matter.

Your goal, no matter what happens ---

is to show that she mattered a LOT to you, you changed when she left, and now you are moving forward in your life Better for the experience, (as in better equipped to be a loving h and friend, to someone...


We're into month 6 since she told me of wanting to split. I have good and bad days. Hopefully the changes that I have made and are continuing to make will work. But I know one thing. I will not mention our R unless she brings it up - and hopefully when she does it is in some way positive.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2014
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bashy Offline OP
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This is soooo difficult. I feel like I'm swimming against a tide.
I'm not pursuing in any way, I'm giving her space, but I'm answering things either wrongly or in the wrong way.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
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Just had a nice 20 minute chat with WAW. I rang to organise collecting D for the weekend. I then asked how she was because her dad is quite sick.
I've been thinking about this for a while but I always got annoyed when people said I put my wife on a pedestal. I didn't mind that cause I believe she deserves to be there. But after we split I went the opposite way. If she wanted help I politely said no, not cus I wanted to but because I was trying to make a point. However after reading DB I realise that wasn't our problem. Our problem was my lack of time with W and enjoying each other's company.
So, after thinking about this the last while as we chatted I asked was she ok, how was work etc. she said she was unsettled at the moment because she wants to go to college but also needs to work to support our D because I am no longer there ie separated.
So I listened then talked to her. Said I'd help her anyway I could. If I couldn't help I'd say so but we'd explore all her options. I suggested writing things down and perhaps meeting alone for an hour next week to discuss thie ie getting D looked after during summer when she's off school, how we can get her looked after if she goes to college etc. She mentioned it was nice we got along like this without arguing. I agreed. We didn't really argue when together when M but I think she meant after separating when I was angry and annoyed with her.
Anyway, I hope I have done right here. If one thing comes out of this is that our D is unaffected too badly by all that's going on. Any advise on what I said today or what to do next week would be appreciated,


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
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So I collected my D today and I notice a letter on the table with my WAW's maiden name on it. It hurts....


M 35 W 31
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Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
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Originally Posted By: bashy
Just had a nice 20 minute chat with WAW. I rang to organise collecting D for the weekend. I then asked how she was because her dad is quite sick.
I've been thinking about this for a while but I always got annoyed when people said I put my wife on a pedestal. I didn't mind that cause I believe she deserves to be there.

IF your w ever felt you placed her on a pedestal, she clearly did NOT feel that way recently. She left b/c she felt you were like "two ships passing in the night" and that means she did Not feel valuable to you. (Well, Not compared to those higher wages at the company you love so much...)

But after we split I went the opposite way. If she wanted help I politely said no, not cus I wanted to but because I was trying to make a point.

You were teaching her a lesson (a "code word", for punishing)...which is NOT a spouses' job. Period. Let life teach her the lessons.


However after reading DB I realise that wasn't our problem. Our problem was my lack of time with W and enjoying each other's company.

So the goal is to show that you are having quality time with your loved ones b/c you value it, and THEY value YOU.

When you see your wife at daughter pick ups, (i.e. when you two have to see each other anyhow), you behave in a warm polite way, but also in a way that shows even though you do care for your w, you have places to go and people to see and things to do....as if you hope she's going to have fun that night, b/c you KNOW you are...& b/c your life is fuller now that you have had the "awakening"...so in your next r (which WE KNOW, you want to be with her--)
you'll be that much more available, passionate and present. IMO, Those 3 things are what she felt were missing in the m.

When you and your d have fun times, know that she will tell your w. YOU need say nothing about it, unless w asks, and then be brief but happy. Let the details come from your d.


So, after thinking about this the last while as we chatted I asked was she ok, how was work etc. she said she was unsettled at the moment because she wants to go to college but also needs to work to support our D because I am no longer there ie separated.
So I listened then talked to her. Said I'd help her anyway I could. If I couldn't help I'd say so but we'd explore all her options. I suggested writing things down and perhaps meeting alone for an hour next week to discuss thie ie getting D looked after during summer when she's off school, how we can get her looked after if she goes to college etc. She mentioned it was nice we got along like this without arguing. I agreed. We didn't really argue when together when M but I think she meant after separating when I was angry and annoyed with her.
Anyway, I hope I have done right here. If one thing comes out of this is that our D is unaffected too badly by all that's going on. Any advise on what I said today or what to do next week would be appreciated,


Stop offering to help her attend college or get a new job, UNLESS IT HELPS YOU OR YOUR D.

Then you do it b/c you are a good co-parent, NOT b/c you want your wife to see you as a great back up plan/doormat.

In fact, assume for a minute that your wife has an OM...Now, ask yourself if you would have made the offer with that in mind? If so, then it may be best for your and I'd support it. If not, it's pursuit under the guise of being a nice guy. IF she asks you if you are "all well now",

you can say "W, I'd do a lot of things differently if I had it to do all over again. I can't say divorce is good for our d either, but I've made some needed changes & I'm enjoying my life a lot more now, so thanks for asking..." Then change the topic and only revisit it IF SHE does.

(And if that happens, then at that point I'd be listening more and talking less. She maybe trying to probe or communicate something, so gather "intel"...)

This^^ is only IF SHE ASKS YOU how YOU feel or how YOU are doing.

HOWEVER,

When SHE brings her own matters up, you "Listen like a lover", which means no judgement, just support & validation.

NO Offers of help, necessarily, but good active listening (eye contact, no interruptions), and empathy.

ALSO feel free to ask her to clarify something you are not clear about, or ask if you can "re-cap" what she told you so you know you are getting it right
(without probing for more R info). This reflects your active listening approach, like good friends do. This works well in all our r's.

You want her to feel relaxed around you, & I think she often does. Then you want to build on that so she does have generally warm feelings for you...AND

then you are the MYSTERY MAN, (a great guy and wonderful father)

who is GAL and managing and attracting new people in his life, some of whom will be female...and you let her see that the new you is an exciting new you, whom other women find attractive,

and you let her wonder if the changes you made are now are going to benefit OTHER WOMEN, after all she (and you) have been thru...after all her "efforts", ---you are finally the man she always wanted...


If your w came over and said "I just woke up. Let's reconcile", you would be a fool to repeat that same behavior as before, b/c it would not last

unless you both have NEW tools for keeping love alive and well
...and communicating your needs clearly.
You two have broken up before and reconciled, and both times you "relapsed". Why would she believe this would be different?

B/C it's real, now? Only time will prove that to her. So again, with the "math":

believable consistent changes + sufficient time passing = changes she can believe in.
Keep at the changes, for longer...

If it's too late, you're still a better man, and ultimately your life & your d's will be enriched by the changes you have made.

I happen to believe in your case this will take maybe another year+, but if you stay on track, I am confident you'll find yourself on the other side of this, in a new, better r.

I hope it'll be with your present wife...

make sense?

Here are the 40 rules I use, most of which came from what Sandi assembled from MWD's writings.

They're only slightly different from what else is here, with a few modifications & additions, but the highlighted ones are for you (and the other rules too).

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

***17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.


18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.


21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!


25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). Sometimes the right thing to say is nothing.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.


35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Know that in time, you really will be happy again, regardless of your spouse’s choices. Know this, believe it, and let it show.

39. Do not believe that showing your spouse your pain and misery proves your love for them. It just makes it harder to be around you.

40. Don’t worry about how the past is viewed. What matters is this day and “from this day forward.” Learn to let go of the past and what you cannot control. It’s a lot to let go of, but it is VERY freeing.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Posts: 273
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bashy Offline OP
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Well, what great advice. Thank you. Exactly the sort of help I'm looking for. I will continue on my path and see were it takes me.
On a side note I noticed a few things at the weekend that may or may not be interesting.
First of all my young D fractured her wrist horse riding on Saturday. That evening I dropped her off to WAW as it was my turn to have that evening to myself. Anyway, my WAW knew I was going out and has known for a good few months now that I have been getting my social life back (which is one of the complaints she had about me before ie a homebody). Anyway, lo and behold I got a phonecall at 8.45am on Sunday letting me know that my D was doing ok. Now, to the outsider that may seem natural ie to let me know all was ok. But she normally isn't like this. She'll only really telephone me if there IS a problem. I have a distinct feeling she was checking up on me (was I home or with someone) but I could be jumping the gun.
Then on Sunday evening I posted on social media that I was out again for a few beers. Then on Monday morning she rang at 8.45am again. I did not answer. I texted back saying "What's up?". She immediately rang to say she was keeping D off school because of wrist. Again I could be looking into things too much but she normally would text me stuff like this. Was she checking up on me to see if I was home or elsewhere?
Lastly, I decided to visit D that afternoon to see how she was as I was close to her home. I sat with WAW and D for an hour and towards the end she asked could I mind D on a Sunday evening in a few weeks instead of the usual Sat night. I said that should be fine as I was looking to go out all day Sat to a local beach resort. She asked "Who are you going with?". I said, with a smile/jokingly "none of your business" to which she replied "you always ask who I'm going out with" which I denied.
Anyway, am I looking into this too much or does anyone think it is something else?


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
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You are doing a lot of mindreading. Keep your focus on you. Yes, you're looking into it too much. Other than that it sounds like you're doing well.


Adinva 51, S20, S18
M24 total
6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out
9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50
5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend
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bashy Offline OP
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So just had a 50 min chat with WAW. She text me about child maintenance etc and we agreed to top this up with some money from each if us for D's clothes. She then suggested we could do this every month and take D out for shopping - just the three of us.
Then we starting chatting in general and she asked was I seeing anyone, I asked her back "why are you", she then asked the same thing straight away and we repeated this three or four times while we both started laughing. I asked y she wanted to know. She replied: "to see if you've met another woman." I said no.
She then proceeded to tell me whilst laughing that she had bought a device for the bedroom, if u know what I mean. I laughed and said "y did u buy it now and not before". She said she had me before. She she again it was good we were getting along. I said we'd have dips along the way but that we'd always be fine as it was important again for our D. It got to the point were it seemed neither of us wanted to end the chat. Eventually I said I needed to go and I'd see her when collecting our D.
I know I shouldn't try and mind read but really thought there was something in our convo. Was she just bring nice or was she reaching out for something. Thoughts anyone?


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
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IMO she's slowly taking down the wall she has built around herself. Don't get overly excited, but the fact she is making sexual innuendos and asking if you are seeing anyone MIGHT mean she is seeing you in a different light.

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bashy Offline OP
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Heh Thornton. Thank you for your comment. I hope you are right. I certainly came off the phone buzzing but continue to play the mysterious figure and only contacting when it is do to with collecting daughter. I remained confident, chatty and happy throughout our convo. When she asks what I'm doing at the weekend I always say going out. Then she will always say "Who with?". I'm not playing games here but what I am doing is showing a change in me which is a work in progress but which is benefitting me. I don't pine after her everyday which is great.
I just hope these little changes I'm noticing in her is in fact her beginning to somehow miss me or regretting she left me. Time will tell I suppose.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
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So I met my WAW on Sunday to leave off D from her weekend visit with me. We had agreed to take D clothes shopping but it was such a wet and windy day we decided to leave it till next week.
However, we met for some food and sat chatting with D for about 2 hours. I made sure I listened (and made sure I looked her in the eyes) as she talked about her weekend which was tough as she mentioned about being asked by a number of blokes was she wearing anything under her coat as it looked like a strippers coat. To be fair if she was wearing a short coat it would have lol. Anyway, I laughed but said nothing then after she had finished said that it was good she had a nice night out with her friends. She asked me was I out and were did I go. I told her with friends to a few bars - my sister looked after D after she fell asleep staying at her house.
All in all it was a nice few hours as we talked and laughed about different things. I definitely sense she isn't threatened by me anymore (ie am not needy, constantly ringing etc).
On a side note her dad is very ill at the moment with a liver problem. It is quite serious. I told her if she needed to chat about anything to just call. Even if it was just to take her mind off things.
But I wonder why she had to mention men talking to her about her coat. Was she testing me?


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
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So I just mentioned my WAW has been ringing a lot recently. So I looked at my phone records and this is what I have found from May 10 until May 19:
29 calls between us;
21 incoming calls from WAW
7 from me to her;
These calls mainly to do with D but in recent days the talk has become about other things like her ill dad etc. Chat time ranged from 8 seconds (saying she was near my home to drop D off) to 53 minutes (this call I mentioned in a previous post).
Separately: 3 calls I deliberately didnt answer (perhaps I need to step this up). Thoughts?


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
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So, ANOTHER phone call today for no real reason. A text would have been suffice. Just to say that her brother is near finished tiling our ensuite so that I can get it painted so we can then proceed with putting it on the market. I actually did not answer her call when it came through but text back 20 minutes later to ask was she looking me.
She rang straight back to tell me the above and then proceeded to tell me about her current sitch with her sick dad. I listened and asked her q's making sure I didn't interrupt.
We chatted for about 25 minutes which was really nice. Again I ended the call first and said we would speak again on Friday before I pick D up for hospital appointment.
On a side note.... I'm not sure I should have done this but I booked her a table at a nice restaurant for her and D as they are clothes shopping for little one at the weekend. I told her it was a wee treat for them both because I know she's having a tough time at the moment and thought they would enjoy it. Hopefully this wasn't a step too early.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
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Husband wants to talk tonight. I feel like it is end. Him asking for separation. He made clear he doesn't want to work on our marriage of 17 years. In his eyes he has tried for years. I think it's a MLC. Based on everything I have read in this sister it fits to a "T". I have done a180. Trying to be happy when he is around. Very hard to though. Not engaging into conversation. Only answer his questions if asked. Not sure what else to do. I was floored by him calling it quits on us. Very frustrated by his behaviours as it is not the person I have loved for 20 years. Anyone have some positive input to get me through this tonight. So scared of the future. Hard to hate someone you love so much.


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Another question. If he does ask for a separation and to see a lawyer how do I respond to that. Do I just say ok. ???


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Bashy

what are your GAL now? I mean the real ones...and your 180s? I think you must post more about those and NOT about your w.

You are getting too enmeshed in the mind reading. Your w knows where you are and how to be clear about HER Needs, wouldn't you say? So you can be sure that if she becomes sure, you won't have to keep guessing and wondering b/c she'll tell you, don't you think?

So, back to YOU...


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2014
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bashy Offline OP
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Fair point 25. Well, I've upped my time at the gym to an extra day a week (four days now), I'm out every Sat/alternative Sunday with friends for a few drinks (which is a miracle considering when I was with W I NEVER went out) and I have taken up snooker for the first time since I was a teenager. I go once a week with my dad. I've also been going to the library one day a week to read more... god how I've missed reading.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
Together 11
Single since Nov 13
Moved out Dec 13
ILYBNILWY, 'I don't want to be a boring housewife, 'I don't fancy you any more'
OM confirmed Jun 14
Joined: Apr 2006
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Originally Posted By: bashy
Fair point 25. Well, I've upped my time at the gym to an extra day a week (four days now), I'm out every Sat/alternative Sunday with friends for a few drinks (which is a miracle considering when I was with W I NEVER went out) and I have taken up snooker for the first time since I was a teenager. I go once a week with my dad. I've also been going to the library one day a week to read more... god how I've missed reading.


Okay that^^ is good stuff. For ME, GAL mandates some activities that involve OTHER NEW PEOPLE, not so much the bar scene, and Learning or Doing something NEW...

Here....For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. And I had 3 kids, including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how 'busy' you are, or 'too busy' to GAL).

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL & played a role in your sitch, I think. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w. Okay, so...

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater. I met some NEW fun creative people. I got cast, too. What a blast, b/c rehearsing/performing totally occupies your mind.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Hollywood Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.
I learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape.

Looking good made a world of difference to me. (Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club, after 15 years of ignoring it while on active duty. (Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

I'm sure you can think of some things you would like to at least try. Meeting people who do not know your situation is very helpful to stop the obsessing about her.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 273
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bashy Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: bashy
Fair point 25. Well, I've upped my time at the gym to an extra day a week (four days now), I'm out every Sat/alternative Sunday with friends for a few drinks (which is a miracle considering when I was with W I NEVER went out) and I have taken up snooker for the first time since I was a teenager. I go once a week with my dad. I've also been going to the library one day a week to read more... god how I've missed reading.


Okay that^^ is good stuff. For ME, GAL mandates some activities that involve OTHER NEW PEOPLE, not so much the bar scene, and Learning or Doing something NEW...

Here....For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. And I had 3 kids, including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how 'busy' you are, or 'too busy' to GAL).

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL & played a role in your sitch, I think. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w. Okay, so...

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater. I met some NEW fun creative people. I got cast, too. What a blast, b/c rehearsing/performing totally occupies your mind.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Hollywood Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.
I learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape.

Looking good made a world of difference to me. (Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club, after 15 years of ignoring it while on active duty. (Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

I'm sure you can think of some things you would like to at least try. Meeting people who do not know your situation is very helpful to stop the obsessing about her.


I was actually thinking of her less in recent times until I noticed a change in her contacting me. I suppose I need to up my game in regard to GAL.


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based on how much you talk about her and "her" interactions and all the energy that you put into what MAY or MAY NOT be happening, yes you do need to GAL big time.

You have to break out of your old patterns b/c I fear that even if she did want back in, you'd revert. Not right away, but soon...see Crimson's recent post if that is confusing b/c He claims his changes would not be real if he had recon too soon after the divorce. And maybe they tried to reconcile too soon...

My gut says your changes are more tactical than real, meaning, you are intending them - but they are really just to get her back. Not true changes coming from a desire within, to do so.

Hope that makes sense.


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S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
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It is. Many thanks. I think I need to work on this.


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Been down to home of WAW to paint today before house goes up for sale. Getting along great. Then this afternoon as she gets a bath she invites me into bathroom to talk about what to order for dinner. I said are u sure u want me in here. She replies that it's nothing I haven't seen before. When I go in she's covered in bubbles. Then as we talk she sits up exposing her body. I stayed calm and said nothing.
Then she gets out after we chat for a while and I get in. She's in and out of room as I bath chatting away. She says "we're the most disfunctional family ever lol". I laughed to.
Then we discussed taking D out tomorrow as it's a bank holiday here.
Anyway, I'm staying the night but she's nipped out to her friends for a few drinks and is staying there. I told her to have a great night.
Before she leaves we visit her dad in hospital. He's very ill and it's a shock to see him. He looks awful. Liver problems. She sees I'm a bit upset and she gets upset too. I tell her he'll be ok. We then leave. That's her for the night now.
Soooo.... what am I doing about me? Well I've just booked drum lessons for myself lol always wanted to try it. I'm trying to GAL and being proactive ie getting house painted so we can sell and I can get my own place. But all this today and her ringing everyday for last three weeks is making it tough. It's not as if I can go totally dark as we have our D. Tomorrow should be interesting.


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Just home after a few days at WAWs home getting it painted. Went with her to hospital to see her bad. He's in a very bad way. Liver issues. We left and she burst out crying. I tried to console her but didn't hug her. When we got home she looked shattered. I called her over and gave her a hug that I should have before. She reciprocated. She joked that I was small with her in her heels. We both laughed.
We sat chatting that night over popcorn and TV. Then when it was time for bed I asked for blanket for settee. She said I could share bed with her. We slept soundly but apart with no hugs or anything but I did not try any of that anyway.
Got up next morning and instead of sitting about whole she was at work I finished painting while D pottered about. She arrived home and thanked me for all my help b4 I left.
It was a very pleasant weekend and nice to spend time with her and D.
I will again detach with regard to contact until collecting D but I'm hoping as I try to improve my GAL she thinks of me and how well we get on at weekend.

Did I do ok from the above? Is she warming to me?
Any thoughts I'd appreciate. Ty


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Just got text from WAW at 3am. She couldn't sleep which is an ongoing issue with her: "Just wanted to say thank you for your help/support with everything. I really do appreciate it :)"


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I'm really struggling today. My WAWs interactions with me recently are making me really miss her more than ever. Especially after last nights message and the texts between subsequent. I know she's warming to me but is it a test? It's hard to not try and think what she's thinking and I know that's wrong.
I went out to play golf today for the first time in 10 years. Cleared my mind a little but god this is hard. So want to ring her and tell her I want her back. That our old marriage is over but we can start a new one. I won't Ofcourse because I know that's wrong but this is soooo hard.


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Y'll ain't better until she comes crawling across broken glass begging for forgiveness. IMO the bath scene was to keep you around, see if she still has you.

Don't break my friend, don't break for anything less than what you deserve.



"Don't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing, and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you. And stay." ~ Will Smith
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Did I do the right things this weekend Riley from what you've read?


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I agree with what Riley said. I am in a similar situation (no bathtub) but my WAW was so flirty and warm with me Sat that I started to feel she wanted me again...and then two days later she is back to "I just want to get out of the relationship so I can heal". Its like getting your arms and legs blown off and we think a kids band aid will be enough to suture the wound. I never knew pain could run this deep and I feel like i am on fire. I miss her every second of the day so you are not alone. Get back on the golf course and max out the GALing like a warrior...so she sees and is attracted to the confident you. I am playing Ultimate Frisbee (first unlikely team sport in thirteen years) and then trying a Qui-Gon class (Great for stress). We all got your back here dawg


Me 42 W:35
M: 14yrs T:15yrs
D: 8yrs D:6yrs S:3yrs
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Thanks Rayzzz. I appreciate it. I feel your pain. I know the hurt. Like I sad b4, I was getting on with things then she's contacting me more and we're getting along great but that makes things worse as I start thinking about her. Even reading DB makes me think of her more. If there's one thing I'm doing right (well I hope it's the right thing) is that I'm not initiating texts or phone calls. I wonder if the more experienced DBs can guide us both at this difficult point ie why are our WAW doing these things to us right now like the bath incidents etc. I know 25 has been great already with me.


M 35 W 31
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So my WAWs dad is in a pretty bad way in hospital. He's 59 but looks 80. He is an alcoholic and basically his liver has packed in. The family haven't been told he is on death's door but WAW is extremely worried.

So I'm needing a bit of advice from any vets out there...

How do I approach all this? We are getting on better than ever since S and I stayed last weekend at our home which went pretty well. I want to support her in anyway I can but also understand that she needs to stand on her own two feet - plus I don't want her thinking I'm doing this just to get back with her (although if I'm honest I want her to see how what she had and is missing).

I'm down this weekend for one night to continue painting for the eventual house sale but I'm concerned that she will see me as Plan B.
Me helping around the home and being a gd dad was never the issue. It was my lack of GAL and us going out with friends. But I feel by being there for her when her dad is ill can only be a good thing. She was great with me when my mum died 6 years ago. In either case I am very fond of him and it is awful to see him in this way.

I am continuing to GAL slowly but surely. Another day of golf this week plus visiting my friends.

Again, how do I approach supporting her at this time? Am I doing the right thing?


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Originally Posted By: Riley
Y'll ain't better until she comes crawling across broken glass begging for forgiveness. IMO the bath scene was to keep you around, see if she still has you.

Don't break my friend, don't break for anything less than what you deserve.


This is the most punitive thing I've seen written here, in over 7 years.

Please Bashy, don't follow this^^ path. And Riley, how's this approach working out for you?

Btw, it's NOT a DB approach, at all. So maybe you ought to consider a different site...


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
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Originally Posted By: bashy
So my WAWs dad is in a pretty bad way in hospital. He's 59 but looks 80. He is an alcoholic and basically his liver has packed in. The family haven't been told he is on death's door but WAW is extremely worried.

So I'm needing a bit of advice from any vets out there...

Just so you know, YES you've been having positives with your wife lately. My DB coach would argue that you should "listen like a lover" meaning, LISTEN and pay attention and validate her experience. Don't try to "Fix" her grief, b/c it's her dad's life/problems and if he's on death's door (my dad died from liver problems)

then she'll hit the floor. She may bottom out and look to you (gonna make her walk on glass, THEN???) OR she may act out. Remember, that's what YOU did when your mom passed away.


How do I approach all this? We are getting on better than ever since S and I stayed last weekend at our home which went pretty well. I want to support her in anyway I can but also understand that she needs to stand on her own two feet - plus I don't want her thinking I'm doing this just to get back with her (although if I'm honest I want her to see how what she had and is missing).

Be kind to her. Offer specific help (such as 'picking up groceries/medicines, cleaning in laws yard" or whatever helps. Your job is to be a pillar of support and to SHOW UP for your wife now, more than ever.

Model for her, what you would want if you were in her shoes. Compliment her strength or dignity if it comes up. Mention her being a good daughter to her dad, if applicable.
What are HER Love languages? Meaning, how does she RECEIVE love, and how does she GIVE it? (See the book "Five Love Languages" by Chapman. IT's not a hard read but it does contain some good insights and reminders).

Contribute to her "love tank" and absorb and acknowledge it when she gives or shows love and compassion to you. Compliment her.

Be there for her until her family crisis has passed, which it won't do in a week or two. As you know, if her parent died, it'll be a long process for her. Know that and don't get impatient. But when her family crisis has passed, your job will be to model a man only a fool would leave. Strong, honorable, selfless, showing leadership. There will come a time when some mystery would help and if you can do it without appearing unsupportive during her crisis, go ahead. Otherwise, wait. Meaning, don't act as if you have a date a week after her dad passes away...

Make sense?


I'm down this weekend for one night to continue painting for the eventual house sale but I'm concerned that she will see me as Plan B.

gee, maybe you should be nasty to her to "show her a thing or two!!" (Yeah, like she was right to go...???)


Me helping around the home and being a gd dad was never the issue.


You said you were a homebody and a couch potato. So look good and be strong and be active. You can do that and be kind and supportive to her.



It was my lack of GAL and us going out with friends. But I feel by being there for her when her dad is ill can only be a good thing.

It IS a good thing and frankly, if you blow it, NOW, you can quit the whole thing. For many people, acting out when a spouse really needs you, is unforgivable. Surely it's hard to forget.


She was great with me when my mum died 6 years ago. In either case I am very fond of him and it is awful to see him in this way.


Then do the right thing. You know what that is.


I am continuing to GAL slowly but surely. Another day of golf this week plus visiting my friends.

Again, how do I approach supporting her at this time? Am I doing the right thing?


Doing the right thing is usually doing the loving thing. Sometimes you have to let Life give them the consequences of their choices. Now is not that time.

When she calls you in the middle of the night, LISTEN to her. Share stories about her dad if you can, b/c the more you show her how you actually feel about him, the more the bond is. But let HER do most of the talking when it comes to her dad...

hope this helps.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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PS

You walked out on her after your mom's death. (Remember?) Did she make you "crawl across glass" to come home?

How'd you come home? How did she treat YOU?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Hi 25. I knew I could rely on you!!

We spent a lot of weekends together with our daughter which drew us together as she saw me making changes in my life ie being trustworthy, hard working etc.

This time is a little different. We aren't seeing as much of each other as normal but when we do see each other im hoping she notices my changes again.

As for the weekend. It went very well bar a small (or large) blip. I got painting done. I told her I'd stay the night if she needed help with daughter if she was going to hospital to see her dad and if not I'd go on home. She asked me to stay. So we had pizza and a few glasses of wine with a DVD. Daughter was put to bed meaning that WAW and I would more than likely be sharing a bed again. But then D was feeling ill so I went and lifted her into WAWs bed and said I'd sleep in D's bed. Thought that would be a sensible thing to do for D and me not looking like I wanted to share a bed with WAW again.

Next day she went to work. I left D to school. Finished painting and helped tidy things in house to help WAW out. She came home for lunch and we talked a little about future plans of our house (it's in negative equity and will leave us with huge debts).
So as she discussed where she plans to live, she mentioned not living in city as it was too far from her family. I suggested (knowing that I should listen only) it would be good for her, financially and socially, but she again said she would be lonely. I told her she'd meet someone. She said what would happen if she didn't. I told her that I'm sure she's been chatted up loads recently and she'll meet someone for sure. She again repeated what if she didn't meet someone....

and this is the mistake I made. "Sure you can just go back out with me again" D'oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To be fair, I said it with a little joking laugh while she laughed with a nice smile. Not a dismissive one or anything, so I suppose that's good. But a mistake by me all the same.

Anyway, just received a text from her thanking me for all my help again over the weekend and that the bathroom I painted was looking great. I simply replied "Anytime". I didn't get into a convo like I normally do.

So, I plan on not texting or ringing as normal and won't be going to house to paint for about three weeks so hopefully going a little dark will keep a little momentum going.

In the meantime it's back to golf this week.

Any feedback again would be great. Ty


M 35 W 31
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Originally Posted By: bashy
Hi 25. I knew I could rely on you!!

We spent a lot of weekends together with our daughter which drew us together as she saw me making changes in my life ie being trustworthy, hard working etc.

This time is a little different. We aren't seeing as much of each other as normal but when we do see each other im hoping she notices my changes again.


I'd assume the first thought that will cross her mind is "oh, I've seen the 'changes' before - and they'll fade as soon as I come home." Your job is to show that the changes are NOT about getting HER back, and are NOT temporary, but about YOU becoming the best you that you can become. Takes time and probably more drastic/noticeable changes.


As for the weekend. It went very well bar a small (or large) blip. I got painting done. I told her I'd stay the night if she needed help with daughter if she was going to hospital to see her dad and if not I'd go on home. She asked me to stay. So we had pizza and a few glasses of wine with a DVD. Daughter was put to bed meaning that WAW and I would more than likely be sharing a bed again. But then D was feeling ill so I went and lifted her into WAWs bed and said I'd sleep in D's bed. Thought that would be a sensible thing to do for D and me not looking like I wanted to share a bed with WAW again.


Since I think you'd mention if you are a mute person, why on earth didn't you just ASK your wife what she wanted, vis a vis where D was to sleep? Not about where YOU sleep, but D...?? Think about it...stop the mind reading b/c that's a lot of the old you and it's NOT helping...show the new COMMUNICATIVE you.


Next day she went to work. I left D to school. Finished painting and helped tidy things in house to help WAW out. She came home for lunch and we talked a little about future plans of our house (it's in negative equity and will leave us with huge debts).

Ahhh....Such a bummer. In our state, to my delight, I learned that the loans are "non recourse" so that if you have to walk, the bank gets the house but cannot get YOU. (In a way that makes sense b/c with a car, for instance, if you fail to pay they can go repossess it. They don't ALSO sue you for unpaid amounts, but some banks seem hell bent on doing just that. However, Most won't).

Check that out with your bank, meaning, is it a "non recourse" loan? If so, that means they cannot get you personally, for the house. Incidentally, nearly all primary mortgagees in California, are non recourse.

Second, figure out if the bank really would come after you and IF SO, for how much. My brother had a short sale and the bank compromised with him. You need to speak to the bank about it and SHOP around if other banks are available. Our main bank stinks, btw...any program that "helps" homeowners but also charges them money for it, is NOT considered a legit company...my neighbor learned that the hard way.

anyhow...


So as she discussed where she plans to live, she mentioned not living in city as it was too far from her family. I suggested (knowing that I should listen only)

but you did it anyhow. I think I'll cross out what I believe you should NOT have said, okay?


it would be good for her, financially and socially, but she again said she would be lonely. I told her she'd meet someone. She said what would happen if she didn't. I told her that I'm sure she's been chatted up loads recently and she'll meet someone for sure. She again repeated what if she didn't meet someone....


ALL of this is nonsense for you to comment upon. What are you, her girlfriend?? STOP talking about her single life!


and this is the mistake I made. "Sure you can just go back out with me again" D'oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think ALL of it was goofy on your end. Just LISTEN and echo the least crazy things she might say like "yes, that would be closer/farther to/from your family" and add NOTHING...


To be fair, I said it with a little joking laugh while she laughed with a nice smile. Not a dismissive one or anything, so I suppose that's good. But a mistake by me all the same.


see above...



Anyway, just received a text from her thanking me for all my help again over the weekend and that the bathroom I painted was looking great. I simply replied "Anytime". I didn't get into a convo like I normally do.

How about "you're welcome", instead of adding "anytime" b/c frankly, that's NOT really something you need to say. Besides, it's not true is it really?



So, I plan on not texting or ringing as normal and won't be going to house to paint for about three weeks so hopefully going a little dark will keep a little momentum going.

In the meantime it's back to golf this week.


Good plan!


Any feedback again would be great. Ty


Ty, see above and remember, often STFU is a good SMART thing.

Now's the time to be a great dad and a ROCK for your wife to lean on when it comes to her grief, or family issues, but NOT about her future as a single woman. Period. When she goes there, you can stay silent. If she actually asks you questions about how HER life will be after she leaves you, you're free to say "I can't really address what your single life will be like, b/c I'm working on MINE..."and switch topics. Let her call her bf's for that type of girl talk.

The Men in our lives are not here to tell us how to get along without them...

Make sense?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
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Ah jeez 25. I'm reading DB and listening to you but I seem to be bloody hopeless. I believe she is warming to me... testing me perhaps. But I don't really know what else to do bar GAL.

Do I simply get on with life and perhaps at some point she will come calling? Is it 'GAL and see' instead of 'wait and see'?


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So I've been lying low this week again without contacting WAW. Lo and behold I just got two emails from her out of the blue. First one is a pic with her and D pulling funny faces. The second one was a lovely pic of them with the message 'Cus I'm happy :)'.

What the hell is going on? My head hurts. Is this some sort of game!!!!


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Returning the favour Bashy. You seem to be on a good path and further along than most. We are rooting for you!

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Sounds good Bashy, but keep a tentative distance still...she is testing the waters and still new to your 180...shoot her back an email "thx. nice pic" but then keep letting her pursue you. This is a marathon , not a sprint but the reward of your M will be worth it.


Me 42 W:35
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D: 8yrs D:6yrs S:3yrs
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Heh db and rayzzzz. Thanks for the support. I held off from replying until the next morning and simply said 'lovely pics'. It was tough not to email back straight away.

About to leave work in a minute to collect daughter for a hospital appointment but about an hour ago received an email from WAW who couldn't sleep (it's 5am in the UK). Our negative equity on house and general debt is a real weight on our minds and we've been discussing it so she just emailed to say she's been looking at rentals far from her parents. I replied "We need to sit and discuss all our options because we've made soooo many mistakes in the past". She replied "I know, too many what if's but what's done is done and we've got to face it all now and do something about it... I just want to get organised and start living life again after everything my mum and dad have been through. Cus life really is too short and our D is growing up before our very eyes."

I don't know what to make of this reply? I think I'll just go into WAW home this morning and act natural, not mention debt or home and just leave with D straight away. For some reason I feel a little down after that message.


M 35 W 31
D 10
Married 3 years
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Been a strange weekend. Collected daughter for hospital but before I left myself and WAW had a lovely chat. Really nice. She was telling me about improvements to her dad etc. I made sure I listened and told her I had my fingers crossed for him.

Anyway, she text me that night to say her dad had been moved hospitals. Again we traded texts. Pleasant. Then we met next day to leave D off. We were chatting as D had a McDs and joking about how beautiful our D was... the wee one gets sooo embarrassed at us doing that lol. Anyway, WAW then said "I can't believe we created something so beautiful". Now, I suppose it could have been the moment and I know we shouldn't mind read but it did set my heart aflutter.

So, despite this I did not text or ring over the weekend and havent heard from her since... no texts. I know it's only a few days but I'm soooo scared she's forgetting about me. Think I'm just having a bad day.

On the plus side I went for a two hour walk today to clear my head. Enjoyed it. Will do more this week.


M 35 W 31
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Married 3 years
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So no contact whatsoever with WAW since I left D with her on Saturday and which was a pleasant meet.
Although it's only been 4/5 days it seems so much longer given the amount of interaction and (dare I say it) progress in recent weeks.
This is sooo tough. I've been GAL this week with golf and gym but I do have quiet times when I'm wondering why no contact. Has she suddenly gone cold on me? Has she met someone? Should I initiate contact?
Jeez I hate all this despite trying to GAL. Sometimes it seems like things are getting better then you get that awful feeling in your gut and start thinking about the good times together.


M 35 W 31
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Married 3 years
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Do not initiate contact now. Youve made it through the past 4-5 days. No need to dump that and give her the upper hand again. It is hard but you can do it.

Last edited by Ben2010; 06/11/14 11:29 PM.

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Hi all. Wonder if the vets like 25 can help.
As you know my FIL is Ill at the moment. WAW hasn't been in contact until today as he is getting home today but it's in a new house 20 miles from previous as they had to sell due to debt. Anyway, WAW has been stressed running about organising stuff for him and has said she feels guilty as D hasn't been getting her attention.
Soooo, should I offer to stay in her house all next week to help mind D while she does this. Only thing is that my travel to work at night would now become a 50 mile round trip instead of normal 5 miles. I don't have cash for petrol so would need her to pay my fuel to go to work at night.
Should I offer but ask for help with money until pay day next week or continue to just offer moral support? Any help would be appreciated.


M 35 W 31
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Just read that back and felt a douchebag. I'll offer without mentioning money if I should offer at all?!


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Well it really is all over. I blew it. Can't believe all I've worked towards in recent months was ruined by me giving into my emotions and doing the opposite of what I was meant to do.
I'll be brief:
Stayed in WAW on Sunday for Father's Day.
Had a lovely meal with WAW and D.
D went to bed.
WAW and I had a bottle of wine and chatted about her.
I listened and asked her loads of questions about her potential college course etc.
This is when it spiralled out of control.
She talked about my faults in marriage which I've gone over in earlier posts.
I agreed with her but then proceeded to blow it all by firstly going on about how that wasn't the real me, I've changed (which she agreed with) and that I think she has feelings for me still. I ask why she took me back the last time we split when I dumped her. She says it was because I told her I'd win her back and I was persistent.
This went on. Spiralled out of control. I told her I had dated once but it didn't feel right becuase I loved her. She then tells me she has met someone.... I go quiet. Not angry. Ask things about him. She backtracks saying it's nothing serious. Propbably won't last (I get the feeling it was to shut me up going on about us - it worked). I walked away. Then calmed down. Told her I was happy for her.
Next day after sleeping in separate beds. All is normal. Small talk. I leave D to school and go home. On way home she texts me for info. on broadband. I flirt with her. She replies with lol. I ring and tell her I love her, I will not give up on her. We will get back together and I will be there for her and D no matter who she meets.
Then I get home and ring her again to ask will she come for a day trip on my birthday in a few weeks with me. Shes at work and stressed. This makes things worse. Tells me it isn;t a good idea. That it's over. She doesn't love me etc etc etc

So i'm in a down place right now. Haven't contacted her at all since then (two days now), have just made my first appointment with a councillor, but have never felt as low even when she first said she was splitting with me.

I feel my heart has been ripped open again and feel like giving up. I know in my heart of hearts she loves me but is sooo damn stubborn and scared.

Please someone help.


M 35 W 31
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The good thing about DB is odds are you did not kill yourself with one bad day. Probably set yourself back a bit, but just refocus on working on you, and keep with the DB, and that is your best shot at a better life with our without your W.


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IMO you need to stay dark. She told you some things (remember don't believe anything she says) and you need to back off.

You started pursuing her, its time for a 180, go radio silent.

Just my opinion..

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I agree Thornton. I can't keep this up. It's killing me. No more contact unless it's D related or her dad gets badly sick again.


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Well it seems that me detaching and not always being there for WAW has hit her hard. I informed her that I would be stopping mortgage payments but starting paying child maintenance as I need my own place and because our house is lost ie negative equity by 48,000 etc.
She asked could I help pay her deposit plus go as guarantor on a new place for her and she doesn't have anyone despite having a big family.
I said no as I can't take risk of her temporary job ending and me being left to pay her rent.
She went ballistic. Told me I'd have to take daughter full time and that this was all for D and not her.
I stood my ground and said no. I simply have to concentrate on my life and a new home for me and D.
Huge row which ended in me not giving in.
I wonder what's next?!?!


M 35 W 31
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Hi Bashy
that is a consequence of leaving you and not being a boring housewife.. she gets to have and pay her own mortgage.. no one goes guarantor for a stranger..which is what she has decided she wants.with you

I think standing your ground is the logical thing to do. she can not have it both ways...
Loua.


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So collected the D today from WAW and had a chat with her after our row. We both apologised and said we shouldn't have rowed like this within earshot of D.
We talked candidly about plans for selling home and, despite what I said in the posts above, I offered to go guarantor. The reason? I will be remaining with my dad which gives me, for the first time ever, substantial disposable income to enjoy life ie GAL and live a little after struggling for years supporting my family. As such I am fine with securing a home for my D and reassurances from WAW that if anything did happen in future that could result in me being liable for rent that she would ensure that it doesn't. Although I suppose this can never be certain!
Anyway, we briefly talkedabout our chat on Sunday and the fact that supposedly she has a new man. And one thing struck me which has been mentioned in other posts by vets....I LISTENED TO WHAT SHE WAS SAYING and I noticed something for the first time but which has been a recurring thing when she has discussed our breakup.... she said that I needed to give her the space that she give me when we broke up before. Now this may not seem substantial to anyone reading this but she has said this at least a half dozen times to me. It is as if she wants me to step back to see how she feels about herself, about us and about her future and what she wants.
I told her I hoped she would be happy with this new person. She said she hopes so too and then jokingly said would I like to know his name.... WTF!!! What did that mean. Then she again brought up the fact that I had dated a girl in recent months. Truly it was for a bite to eat and cinema but I realised immedately that I could not hurt her because I loved my WAW. My WAW asked me what did she look like and a few other things that I now forget. But I wonder why she did that?
I know we shouldn't try and mind read but this converation today got me thinking. Is she testing me? Does she still have feelings for me but is scared of me going back to my old ways?
One thing I can say is that I feel much better that we are getting on again and patched things up despite the fact she might have another man. Another thing is I feel really good knowing I am going to have money for the first time in years to do things Ive always wanted to do and take my D places whenever I feel like. My first counselling session will start next week and I know there will be blips along the way but as of right now I feel much better.
ANy thoughts on what my WAW said would be greatly appreciated.


M 35 W 31
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So it's been a strange week. For the first time since I started this process i've really discovered what detaching means. It doesn't just mean going dark... but detaching myself from my WAWs life/problems/concerns/worries etc.
I've been trying to do that but, and there is always a but with me, she has been in constant contact this week about trying to get a new place for her and D as well as organising a financial adviser for applying for an IVA.
While I really don't mind helping her she really only ever contacts me now when she needs a favour. Ofcourse, she'll say it's not for her but for our D, so I'm left to feel guilty.
However, I'm starting to feel something stir inside me. Is it anger, hurt, resentment? I'm not sure.
So today I was busy online looking at a few things to buy for myself when it's my WAW ringing. I decide to decline the call. She tries again. I decline. Fifteen minutes later another call. I decline it again. I text her and say I'll ring in 15 minutes.
30 minutes later she rings again after I don't get back to her. I decline the call. I wait an hour and ring her. The first thing she asks is "Where were you doing?' with a kind of nosey laugh. 'Just busy with stuff', I say. She goes on to talk about her new place she's trying to get.
My question is.... what the hell is going on and what do I do about it? Should I proceed with not answering calls like before? Making her wonder what I'm doing? Turn off my phone so I'm not tempted to answer?
She's toying with me and I can't deal with it!


M 35 W 31
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I think it's fantastic that you waited on the calls.

Not to be some ignorant jerk, but just to teach yourself patience, and that you can be in control of some situations.

Your W is obviously jealous - my W had an EA, and told me how wonderful her life was, and how great OM was, culminating in a one-night stand; then when I detached and basically ignored her, she came back, dropped OM, talked about how disgusting and humiliating it was that she had ever been with him, and she never spoke to him again. Later on, she told me it was totally unsatisfying sex, and that it just made her feel dirty and awful and used.

I can't say that's your exact scenario, but I do know that there is a significant power in saying, "I will be treated as a husband, and no less." Now, you MUST be an H in every sense of the word - maybe not romantically and physically right now, but don't you dare try to set a boundary, and not exemplify to your W the man you are trying to be!

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bashy Offline OP
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Heh Jon,

Thank you sooo much for your comments. It means a lot.
I will have to look at your story and see if I can support you in some way.

Can I ask a question and it may sound stupid?!

When you say: "....don't you dare try to set a boundary, and not exemplify to your W the man you are trying to be!", what do you mean?


M 35 W 31
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More phone calls from WAW today. Trying to detach. In fact, I rang my counsellor today to book my first ever appointment (big step I feel). Sooo difficult when I'm being contacted by her and fighting the urge to answer.

Anyway, after ignoring calls for most of the day I finally rang back.

First thing she says: "You're getting tough to get hold off these days...".

I replied: "Sorry, just been busy."

Are these small steps working as I try to detach? Who knows!


M 35 W 31
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Either way if you arent detaching, it still looks like it to her. Based on that convo you describe, it seems as if she feels that way already. Great job on setting up your first C appointment.


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Thanks Ben. Dreading first meeting. I was near in tears and I was only booking it! Can't imagine what I'll be like in first five minutes lol

Will keep up detaching. It's interesting these last two days the things she's been saying but it's really hitting home that this is a marathon and not a sprint. Feeling down but I'm sure I'll pick myself up. People like you and the rest of the DB'ers on here have been a tower of strength.


M 35 W 31
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Lol, I have cried more in the past 4 weeks than I ever did the past 20 years. Nothing to be ashamed of. Just dont do it in front of her. If you have to excuse yourself when you feel it coming on, then do that. I know that its hard to detach. I havent really done well with it either. I "act as if" I am when I talk to her and she seems to think that I am. I have detached a bit but not like she would believe.

What kind of stuff has she been saying the past 2 days?


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Have a look over my last two pages and you'll see what ages saying. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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Not sure what you are saying here? Maybe a typo in there or something?


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Quote:
When you say: "....don't you dare try to set a boundary, and not exemplify to your W the man you are trying to be!", what do you mean?


That means set firm boundaries that are clear, but as you life your life be honest, sincere, clear, appropriately loving for your situation, living above reproach. Or as many like to say, CHD. Courage. Honor. Dignity.

You can't expect to have boundaries respected if you don't act in a respectable manner.

I'm not implying that you aren't already doing this, just offering encouragement, as it's easy to forget in the swirl of emotions.

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Thanks Jon. That's very clear and much appreciated.

@Ben: Have a look over my last two pages and you'll see what SHE'S saying. Apologies for the typo!


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Well I have read your sitch before, but I did reread the last 2 pages here. It doesnt look that bad to me man. You have seen some things that are working. Going dark, being a little mysterious and validating for example. I would say that you keep at it with the going dark. I think that in certain situations there are different ways to do this. I will post something that I found on here that made me feel way better about going dark. But overall I dont think you are in a bad sitch at all. Much better than some on here. Anyway here is the post I was talking about.

The majority of men on here struggling just can't seem to let go. It is nothing more than low self esteem and lack of confidence. To top it off, I don't see much of a success rate with the tactics and methods the men are using on this site a working very well. We have men who have been on here from 2 weeks to over two years. Same methods being used by most all and same results happening to most all..

I guess the men who have been on here for so long just need a "little more patience" and understanding before she wakes up...

Maybe tomorrow huh? Maybe three years is the key......


All the while the simple facts and reality that the men who usually have the most succes getting the woman to come back are the ones who let them go the fastest and leave the woman alone the quickest. The men who go out and start getting a life, having fun, mingling and flirting with the opposite sex and living and loving life to the fullest. They stop whining, stop complaining, stop venting, stop journaling and START DOING..

Those are the men who succeed. The evidence is all around these men struggling, but they fail to see....

I wonder why that is?


See if that makes you feel any better about detaching and going dark.


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Dont mistake that like some do. It DOES NOT say to date or have sex with other women. It simply says to flirt with and mingle with. That is just to build confidence in you. Like I said though, that is not right for all situations, but I think it could be for yours. It certainly helped with mine.


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Heh man. Great find. Thank you sooo much. Letting go is hard. I worry that if I let go she definitely won't come back.
But, ofcourse, I know she DEFINITELY won't come back if I continue to hold on....


M 35 W 31
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Probably time to make a new thread before this gets locked buddy. The best part about that is that you can go back on it if it isnt working for you. But I bet you will see results from it if you follow it.


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I will. Thank you my friend!


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Good luck I am in the same boat I have no expectations all the hope in the world.


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Ben2010 posted:

"All the while the simple facts and reality that the men who usually have the most succes getting the woman to come back are the ones who let them go the fastest and leave the woman alone the quickest. The men who go out and start getting a life, having fun, mingling and flirting with the opposite sex and living and loving life to the fullest. They stop whining, stop complaining, stop venting, stop journaling and START DOING.. "

September will be the one year anniversary for me from BD; WAW still lives in apartment with S7 and I, and in that year has started and finished two affairs and is involved in third at present. I have made many mistakes along the way; the biggest being too needy and trying to hold on which makes her pull away harder. The original author of this thread does not live with his WAW and seems to see the best results when he goes the darkest and GAL.

Is my living arrangement hurting my efforts; making it almost impossible to go dark? Is there anyone here who has had good luck encouraging their WAW to end the relationship and get out on their own so they are able to more effectively do the 180 activities and go dark? I am thinking that the limbo that I am in is being caused by this; that more of the same is not fixing the problem.

Sometimes it is easier to get clarity on what needs to be done when we look at what others have done to resolve their problems.


Me37, W30, S7
Married 10yrs 05/11/04
ILYBINILWY 22/09/13
Disc. OM1 26/09/13
Disc. STD from OM2 03/02/14
Affair Confession 21/06/14

W and I share same apartment (for a few more days).
W isn't pushing for D.

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Originally Posted By: Momo
Another question. If he does ask for a separation and to see a lawyer how do I respond to that. Do I just say ok. ???


MOMO do you have your own thread? I hope so b/c you can get help easier if we all follow you on a thread of your own. (When I first came here I just jumped in on other people's threads too, b/c I didn't know how or where to post my own. But it's there in the forums and the "how to" questions and answers. Trust me, there ARE ways to help you get thru this and maybe slow it down or turn it around.

Don't disappear!


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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