you're doing great. keep moving. Sounds like you are finally becoming someone you want to be. and you see that its a choice to stay M or not. I think that's healthy. I am beginning to see that this is much more about saving ourselves than saving our M's per se. do you agree? If you do Reconcile at some point, you will do so by choice. Not out of fear or something else.
me: 47, W:49 M 16.5 years T 17 years Three kids - D17,D14, S13 Heart 2 heart about M 11/8/13 Bomb drop 11/29/13 W moved out 12/5/13 I Retained L 2/20/14 D filed 3/17/14
you're doing great. keep moving. Sounds like you are finally becoming someone you want to be. and you see that its a choice to stay M or not. I think that's healthy. I am beginning to see that this is much more about saving ourselves than saving our M's per se. do you agree? If you do Reconcile at some point, you will do so by choice. Not out of fear or something else.
That’s one thing that I’ve always heard about 180. Whereas other approaches (i.e. Plan A/Plan B) might have their successes, at what cost are you saving the marriage? Not all approaches are applicable in every situation. The way that I see it, though, at least if your marriage isn’t saved while doing 180, you’re at least in a stronger position to continue on your own. As it turns out a lot of the principles of the 180 were strongly in line with what I needed to do anyway, so it suited me just fine.
It turned out that my WW’s complaints about me and the marriage were NEARLY IDENTICAL to the issues that I’d found after doing a little self-reflection. What has made all the difference has been identifying the issues and quickly starting to address them. It wasn’t until she we had started to figure things out in preparation for divorce mediation that she started to waver and provided the list of complaints. By that time I’d already started working on my own problems, but not for the sake of her or the marriage, but my own. It was a quality of life issue. Being able to take her complaints and point out that I was not only already aware of them but had already been working on them was a gratifying moment. When she rolled out the “How do I know the changes are real?” and “I cheated on you because I just wasn’t all that attracted to you,” it felt great to be able to honestly tell her that the changes weren’t for her, but for me and that if she wasn’t attracted to me that was her problem and not mine. If she didn’t want me I was fine with finding someone who did. I think it was being able to get to a point where I could honestly say that that things started to (slowly) turn around. Then again, I could be completely wrong and still be heading towards D…and I’d be okay with that, too.
I see the question coming…no, I don’t believe the marriage can be saved or that it should be. I think that it should end in a divorce. We need to not only end the chapter but close the book on the old way of doing things and interacting with one another. Last time we moved in together right out of school (she had been on her own for just a month) and agreed that since we were for all purposes a married couple anyway we might as well just make it official. We just fell into things. Moving forward it needs to be a very conscious and deliberate choice. I choose her and she chooses me. Provide a true proposal. Have a renewal of vows. I honestly wouldn’t care if we didn’t legally get remarried. It didn’t mean sh*t last time and, quite frankly, only served to get us butchered on taxes. I’m getting ahead of myself, however. It’s taken a long time, but things are finally getting interesting in a good way.
There won't be another session, at least not anytime in the foreseeable future. What was originally scheduled to last 1.5 hours went for over 2.5 hours. The MC opened up by saying that we should start by laying all of our issues on the table (gesturing to a small coffee table she had in front of the couch)...I told her we would need a bigger table. By the end of the session she told us that while she would always advocate for marriage and would be willing to help us work, she felt that she was hearing the my wife was saying that she wanted things to work, but it just wasn't coming from the heart. It was almost as though she was looking for permission to leave the marriage. The MC told us to talk about how we wanted to move forward....before I get too much further ahead of myself....
I found out a bit about what my WW discussed in IC. The affair had allowed her to get some unmet need met outside the marriage. She needed to see how badly off the marriage was when that need wasn't getting met. My WW has felt that she has put everyone else ahead of her for so long...now it's time she put herself first. She stayed in the relationship as long as she did because I'm not a bad guy and I met all those other needs aside from being "attractive" as a mate. How she put it was "you can be physically attractive without being attractive".
It took an hour to bring up the affair. When I spoke about how much I took care of our DD during the affair, my stbxw completely disagreed, saying that she was home more than I suggested, that two is a hard age...and then concluded by saying, "[censored] you." We didn't even get to discuss how we divide household chores.
What does it mean when the MC suggests that we may have had a fatally flawed marriage from the start? I had explained how I felt that we had both just slid into the marriage for the wrong reasons. I did it because I derived my self-esteem from the relationship, my wife because I was her perpetual Plan B.
We leave and get in the car to go home. I tell I have no interest in a M if she's only doing it for DD. If she'll stay because she wants to be with me, I'm willing to go in 100%. If it's really an issue of attraction, then staying in will only mean shortchanging both iof us. In the end we agreed the best course was to split. I told her that no matter what I had planned this route. We needed the divorce and a fresh start, whether with someone else or each other. She agreed.
For the past few days when I’ve come home from work her eyes have been red and puffy from crying. Finally last night I asked what she was upset about…she was finally getting what she’s wanted: a fresh start and a clean break from the marriage. Here’s the rest of the exchange: WW: “I’ve been struggling with the decision.” Me: “What decision?” WW: “Boy, if you don’t know you really ARE clueless.” Me: “Oh, that? I thought we’d settled everything. What are you struggling with…you don’t like me that much. You already told me that you think I’m a short effeminate male that you were never all that attracted to in the first place. WW: <quietly> “See, that’s why I didn’t want to go to counseling.” Me: “Why, because you finally expressed your opinion? I’m not throwing what you said back at you, I’m trying to figure out where you’re coming from.” WW: “I don’t know what I want to do…” Me: “I’ve gotta go to the gym. I want to get a run in beforehand. We can talk more after I get home.”
After returning and getting a glass of water from the kitchen, she comes downstairs and we start talking. She’s reconsidered what she said before. After our DD was born, we never had much time to spend with one another (Yeah..no [censored]. Seven months after she was born she was spending all of her free time with the OM). Before DD came along we still had a pretty good time with each other. I told her that we shouldn’t kid ourselves, there were problems in the marriage before DD came along, but, I agreed, we did have good times before then. I explained again that I’d brought up the affair during MC to point out that it was a strong enough shock to make me wake up and reassess the state of my life. I’d allowed myself to become isolated and depressed. Instead of living my own life I’d been trying to ride her coattails and live hers. I’d made her responsible for my happiness instead of taking ownership of it myself. I was aware of almost all the points she’d raised against me a few weeks ago and was working on them for myself. I explained that we DO need a clean break. We both got into this marriage for the wrong reasons. I was chasing your approval and it was the thing to do at the time. You chose me as your plan B. We need time to figure out whether we actually want to be with one another and then make the conscious choice to be married. She quickly responded, “I’d hate to waste that $15,000 like that.” I asked what the hell she was talking about. She explained that after my estimate of $7k to outfit the condo for my new single life, counseling fees, mediation fees, etc. we would spend something to the tune of $15,000 that just as easily could go towards the mortgage. If we ended up getting back together again she would hate to think back on how much money we’d just blown for nothing. I told her that it was just money…we could always make more and you’re comparing it against the value of your future happiness. She countered by saying that maybe we need to start splurging more on babysitters.
We took the conversation upstairs to the bedroom and started talking about other things. At one point she started talking about considering whether to have her ears pinned back or a nose job. I’m really starting to think that she might be going off the rails with all this plastic surgery. She doesn’t seem to understand that slim doesn’t equal healthy. I also warned her that if she keeps talking about a nose job I’m going to start calling her Mrs. Potato Head. The night concluded when she commented that she’d been the most level-headed and consistent throughout this whole thing. She’s always tried to be fair by me. I agreed that while that might be the case, maybe being so consistent isn’t such a good thing and, anyways, it’s not a contest. I got a couple of texts chasing me back to my bedroom, apologizing and agreeing that she hadn’t meant it as a contest.
This morning I asked her again (via text) to read “After the Affair”, just to gain some perspective of where I’m coming from. She hasn’t responded. I can safely say that I’m at the point where I’ll be okay on my own and moving on. I’ll take my time to work through my issues and eventually spend a little time dating just to figure out what the hell I actually want in a partner (I think I have some idea, but I’m 0/1 so far, so perhaps my people-picker is broken). As for my WW…she still doesn’t recognize that she’s done anything wrong in the aftermath of the discovery of the affair. She still hasn’t acknowledged any role she may have had in the issues in the marriage prior to our DD being born. She still hasn’t apologized for the anything (short of her non-apologies). Now the question that I’m wrestling with is whether I give her a chance to acknowledge these things or do I walk.
Walk. I don't see any of either the remorse or the self-awareness for you two to even be CLOSE to a mutually-healthy, equally-balanced relationship right now.
Down the road? Another matter. Maybe apart, she'll start to "own her s&*t" and begin to do the work necessary. There's obviously SOME connection there between the two of you, so who knows what the future might hold.
My two cents -- it's obviously your (very important) call, pkp. If you stay, I honestly see you being RIGHT BACK here 3-6 months from now, I really do.
Why do you need an apology if you weren't perfect in the marriage either?
Most infidelity experts will tell you that although many (even half) of formerly wayward spouses won't actually use the words "I'm sorry," a general attitude of remorse -- coupled with a self-awareness as to both the damage their affair caused AND some understanding of what led them to decide to take that step -- are necessary for proper marital recovery.
I don't see ANY of that in Mrs. PKP. Then again, I only have PKP's descriptions about her and their interactions, so that's the standard disclaimer, but I just don't see it. I think she's just afraid she's lost her Plan B.
