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HollyAnn #2445706 04/14/14 10:08 PM
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This is one of those situations where either answer could go wrong/right.

By having a lovely family event, you provide something the WAS WILL realize they'd miss, if they were to divorce. There's no way she won't think of that!

True, she'd also realize it if you make her realize it by excluding her, but that adds the "he's punishing me" element into the equation...and I cannot see how it would help her wake up to how great you are. Which is, more or less, your goal. Right?

I think the more she sees you lovingly interacting with your kids, the better. For most women it's a turn on and would do more good than harm. Not to mention how the kids would feel with both parents, instead of highlighting the absence of you at each of the other's event...

Putting the kids first keeps things clear. (You'll never regret doing right by your kids). Maybe You can have your w there when it's a kid/family thing (for the kids sake) but no "Couples" events, if you want.

I think you're so wise to figure out first if a PA is a deal breaker.

Once upon a time I was sure it would be, and I think it would have been when we were first married and for years. But there have been years when I think we would have been able to get past it.

If I found out today, about an affair that ended some time ago, I'd probably get over it. A lot would depend on how it ended, OR IF he ended it, versus the OW cutting it off, if there were one.

But if you KNEW with 100% certainty that nothing your wife could do would ever make up for having an affair, (which is something a few people do know, but I think you would already know if that were the case with you),

and only then, would I be sure to recommend confronting...b/c frankly, if it is something you can get past, how on earth does getting the details out, help you to do that?

Be careful about how much "honesty" you want when it comes to details. Some folks crave knowing it all ---- but I've NEVER met one who was glad to have heard it all, and then successfully reconciled.

MY sister's h had an affair and he confessed to her. They did get past it, but in their case, He broke it off, & HE kept OW away, and then my sister and h went to a lot of counseling. My sister said the less she knew the details, the better, for HER...

Keep that in mind...but of course, decide for yourself.

Are you bearing in mind your overall goal of being the best man YOU can be? The empathy and less controlling behaviors can't get the shift because you now believe there is OM.

I guess I'd have to ask, what if anything does an A change, about your own work?

May I suggest, nothing? You still have your own stuff in your own sandbox.

Don't let a possible/probable A of any nature, deflect from your own needed repair work. That's a lousy combination b/c then you can play the victim and never improve yourself OR your own happiness.

I already know you don't want this^^^....I'm merely reminding you that it often happens here. If a 3rd party is involved or likely to be, some people start ringing bells as if THIS IS THE ANSWER but it's almost always a bit more complicated.

Also I do know people who have left their families and not had a OP. My younger sister is getting divorced at her request, and she has no OM. My oldest brother divorced a wonderful woman, and he had No OW (but I am sure he wished).

Just understand that having an affair does NOT mean that your spouse has "no respect for you" although it would feel that way. You'll hear a lot of people, even around here, talking about how "disrespectful an affair is" but I fear that is often the projecting of a person with a badly wounded ego...b/c mostly that's not on the mind of the person having an affair. I have not had a PA but 20+ years ago, I wanted to...so I realize it's not all about anger or disrespect at all. It CAN be, about loneliness inside a marriage...

And to the one having the affair, remember that they have rationalized it b/c they feel their needs went unmet for too long. They don't necessarily hide it b/c of shame, but more b/c of concern about repercussions AND OR b/c they are not sure what they want to do or how they feel. Confronting can lead to ultimatums that rarely work to the benefit of the marriage, long term.

While there is often regret after an A, while in the throes of it, most women who have affairs do NOT feel they are "wrong"...but that they are justified.

Knowing what you know of your wife's mores & values, isn't the root of the problem - how she got to where that would be justified? Is it all her flawed thinking and selfishness??

See, this is where your hard work comes in...make sense?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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PS

Just read a study of long term marriages that showed the least amount of happiness and most stressful times in a marriage, are the first few years after the birth of a second or third chid...

Thought I'd share that with you. Wish I could find the link but that statement really resonated with me. Gosh, I'm so glad I was younger then. The sleepless nights and two parents working and taking the kids to daycare and back, then to work and yada yada...so many times I asked myself why life seemed so hard.

We moved to a smaller city to get more time and just reducing the commute added an hour a day to family time...

So I'm just reminding you that having both of you working with two small kids is NOT EASY...

but what if it does not get harder than it is now? What if you could make it past this? Imagine that scenario too...or it won't be possible to actualize it.

((( )))


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 594
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Caution, long post below

Originally Posted By: Wonka
It seems to be a constant theme to W. If and when W does bring this very issue up again, how about saying:

I am sorry you feel this way. What would that look like to you? Please show me what I can do to earn your trust back.


I really like this response and will commit it to memory. I have thought about responses like this but I thought it may have been seen as a "fix" or pursuit or she may have interpreted it as me minimizing her pain. I would not have used the "what would it look like to you" phrasing and I think this is they key. I need to let her dictate what she needs. I know this but would not have had as clear and concise wording.

Originally Posted By: labug

Why do you think she doesn't trust you? How can you begin to build that trust?


Why? In the past I had made changes to my behavior that enriched our relationship. Looking back they were reactionary, but genuine. I never did the work or understood what these changes meant to her and her feelings so they never stuck. I think she is scared the changes she see will fade away and we will be back in the same situation.

To build that trust again has already began. I am understanding where her pain comes from and where I have contributed to it, with the limited information she has given me. I plan to keep working on my R skills and learning about myself and making the behaviors permanent. I hope the opportunity comes to use these skill more with the W. We need to have more open and honest communication when we rebuild this trust so we can better understand each other.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I think the more she sees you lovingly interacting with your kids, the better. For most women it's a turn on and would do more good than harm.

This is why I am leaning most towards extending the invite, whether she comes or not.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I think you're so wise to figure out first if a PA is a deal breaker.

If I found out today, about an affair that ended some time ago, I'd probably get over it. A lot would depend on how it ended, OR IF he ended it, versus the OW cutting it off, if there were one


These are my feelings, I know there are certain actions I could possibly work through and forgive. Others may be difficult or impossible. A current ongoing PA would force me to set a boundary. Any thing else would have to be worked on or worked through. I am not going to act all macho and put up a false front that if there was a PA it would be an immediate deal breaker.

As far as details, I would need to know how is started, how long, probably how often, and who broke it off. Maybe some more details about physical acts, but not full disclosure.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I guess I'd have to ask, what if anything does an A change, about your own work?

May I suggest, nothing? You still have your own stuff in your own sandbox.

Don't let a possible/probable A of any nature, deflect from your own needed repair work. That's a lousy combination b/c then you can play the victim and never improve yourself OR your own happiness.


Nothing changes about my work. This is why the book comments will not be brought up, right now it will not change the course of action. If there is/was an A I am forming the opinion that she messed up something good and it will be her loss if I cannot work through it. I hope I can keep this attitude if needed.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Also I do know people who have left their families and not had a OP.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
So I'm just reminding you that having both of you working with two small kids is NOT EASY...

but what if it does not get harder than it is now? What if you could make it past this? Imagine that scenario too...or it won't be possible to actualize it.


When BD happened the way it seemed was that we worked each other apart and she was beginning to wander what life would be like with someone loving and appreciating her. It seemed she left to clear her head.

Yes life is not easy, we went through the toughest time of our life.

I was working 60 to 75 hours a week, nights, weekends, when my phone rang I had to answer and it rang almost everyday and never with good news. A normal day would find me work 7 to 4, grab kids, cook dinner for family, W show up around 6 and eat with us. Be family until 8 and I would leave while she put kids down and work until midnight or later. Weekends would get shot to hell to.

She was teaching full time, working on being an accredidation liason for the entire school, serving on three different commities, heading a club, attending different meetings weekly, and being the president of the faculty. Oh and also taking two doctoral classes on outreach.

Oh yeah, we had two kids too, and two dogs.

We worked each other apart and everyone in my family said this when I told them about BD. There is no guessing on what had killed our relationship.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Knowing what you know of your wife's morals & values, isn't the root of the problem - how she got to where that would be justified? Is it all her flawed thinking and selfishness??

See, this is where your hard work comes in...make sense?


This is where my focus has been since second week after BD. I under estimated her pain and realized she would not make herself feel this way on purpose.

I have taken ownership of 90% of the blame in her feelings, which may be too much, but I need to look at myself. She has some things to work on too, but I cannot do that. I took her possibly exagerated WAS feelings and comments she made and turned them to truths and forced myself to look at myself with her descriptions. I basically told myself that I forced her out and what can I do to change these things, if I in fact wanted to change them. I worked on and continue to work on myself from the extremes. I feel no reason to try and downplay my role in all of this. In engineering we call this a "safety factor".

This is where the hard work will come in. If she does in fact want to work towards piecing then the work will be even harder, but I am up for anything.


M:34 XW:34
Together: 10y
Living: 9y
Married: 7y
Son:6 Son:4
Separated: 12/28/13
Piecing: 5/2/14
Separated 2nd: 10/16/14
W filed, but pulled it: 11/5/14
papers served: 1/27/15
D final: 3/6/15
gogofo #2445855 04/15/14 02:44 PM
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Whether she decides to try R or not, your work is the same because the next R will be no different. Do you now have a different perspective on what it important to you? It seems that you do. If you had to write a mission statement for you, what would it be? What are your guiding principles, values?

Quote:
I am understanding where her pain comes from and where I have contributed to it, with the limited information she has given me. I plan to keep working on my R skills and learning about myself and making the behaviors permanent. I hope the opportunity comes to use these skill more with the W. We need to have more open and honest communication when we rebuild this trust so we can better understand each other.


What does this^^ mean?

Yes, I'm pushing but without a plan and actionable steps, it won't happen. This is the most important project you will ever manage, make yourself accountable and create a plan. The only difference in this plan is, it's lifecycle is the same as yours. smile

I say the above in response to this:
Quote:
In the past I had made changes to my behavior that enriched our relationship. Looking back they were reactionary, but genuine. I never did the work

That shows a lot of insight and self-evaluation, a great place to begin. You then went on to say you didn't understand what the changes meant to her. Talk more about that if you can.

About affairs and why people leave, my H left because he was done, he hung on for as long as he could and finally, as he told me, he wanted a chance to be happy. We hadn't been happy for a long time. There was no other woman, not even the hint of one.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
labug #2445864 04/15/14 03:01 PM
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I'm just catching up on your last thread and got to the part about the book. I would guess it's written by a woman and who knows why but it's scary and threatening.

Could you sit with her and talk about it? "W, I don't know what this is about but it's concerning to me. I want you to be safe and I want my kids to be safe."

Focus on what's important, not ego stuff.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
labug #2445878 04/15/14 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: labug
What does this^^ mean?

Yes, I'm pushing but without a plan and actionable steps, it won't happen. This is the most important project you will ever manage, make yourself accountable and create a plan. The only difference in this plan is, it's lifecycle is the same as yours. smile


She has talked about what she has felt during our relationship that drove her away; trapped, disrespected, un-liked, she lost trust in me. We have yet to get far enough in talks for her to tell me what actions of mine caused these issues, I have just been speculating and introspective of myself to which of my actions may have caused this.

Before DBing I pursued and she was adamant about a D so I basically went LRT on her for two months before she opened up and talked a little about her feelings. We still have a lot of R talking to do.

As far as a plan, I have been reading a book about restoring trust that has actionable steps to work through that are supposed to help. I have been holding myself accountable in actions that I do not like. Plans and steps after this have not yet been figured out. If we get to piecing it will probably follow along with the restoring trust book and a pro marriage solution oriented MC if we can find one in our small community.

Originally Posted By: labug

About affairs and why people leave, my H left because he was done, he hung on for as long as he could and finally, as he told me, he wanted a chance to be happy. We hadn't been happy for a long time. There was no other woman, not even the hint of one.



This is almost word for word what I heard from my W. She included that she "broke" also when I walked out all stressed out and crazy to go to work. She said she was crying at the table and didn't want me to leave. I have no recollection of this conversation, which is weird, but I was in a fight or flight state with work for about 6 months.

About the book, the timing does not feel right for me yet. I want to path right now to be smooth and I feel she could see me bringing it up as an attack. There is fear in me about the answer and repercussions of what may be behind the comments in the book. Things as still fragile with us and I feel it may be better to wait until we have talked more openly about us to bring it up. I never thought about the kids needing to feel safe though. They do attend preschool at her work...

We sent text messages back and forth yesterday while she was flying back. Most of them friendly and non business like. Pictures of food and restaurants I would like, etc. I brought up that we could talk Thursday after the kids go to bed, in response to a text message of her's about hoping we could talk when she got back. Her response was "Sure. Actually I was going to ask you to come for dinner and to dye Easter eggs with boys. If you want". So we are set up to talk again on Thursday. If the kids weren't such an easy excuse I wonder how much harder it would be for us to interact.

If the discussions go well and are healthy and about rebuilding trust I may mention the book comments and approach it from the kids needing to be safe angle.


M:34 XW:34
Together: 10y
Living: 9y
Married: 7y
Son:6 Son:4
Separated: 12/28/13
Piecing: 5/2/14
Separated 2nd: 10/16/14
W filed, but pulled it: 11/5/14
papers served: 1/27/15
D final: 3/6/15
gogofo #2445881 04/15/14 04:35 PM
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Quote:
If the kids weren't such an easy excuse I wonder how much harder it would be for us to interact.


That's not where you are so why do you go there?

Your default is set to "I'm not good enough" or something close to that. Is that true in other areas of your life? Could explain some of that need for control comes from, what do you think.

About the book...if you can drop it without judgment (and you don't believe the person who wrote is a threat to your family) then do that but don't bring it up later. You have information about her that you're not sharing with her, R are built on trust. If you're going to let it go, you must truly let it go.

Speak now or forever hold your peace.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
gogofo #2445882 04/15/14 04:43 PM
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GoFo,

It seems that you've thought about the book situation very carefully and agree that timing is everything. Even if you do talk this week with W, I'd hold off on bringing up the comments as you said that things are "fragile" at the moment.

From my perch, it is more important to build up the communication channel with W. That is how trust is earned. Communication, validating, and consistent actions. These three prongs are a good bridge building to the piecing. I am not sure if you are in the piecing phase as it seems that W is not yet at that place or mindset in reconciliation. More of a "wait and see" approach to ensure that your words and actions are congruent to her. This is how you earn your trust with her. Make sense?

Oh and I would add that using humor during those talks are good way to inject light-hearted moments. Sometimes people get way too intense and they feel suffocated. It is a delicate dance that I think you can do here, GoFo! smile Self-deprecating humor is a winner!

If the kids weren't such an easy excuse I wonder how much harder it would be for us to interact.

Mindreading...forget this. Does not do you any good.

If the discussions go well and are healthy and about rebuilding trust I may mention the book comments and approach it from the kids needing to be safe angle.

This is all down to timing. You would want to build on any of the positive interactions so she'll have more positive thoughts and memories. You'll know when it is the right time.

You got this, dude! small slap on your back

labug #2445892 04/15/14 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: labug
Your default is set to "I'm not good enough" or something close to that. Is that true in other areas of your life? Could explain some of that need for control comes from, what do you think.


"I'm not good enough" is not much of an issue in other areas of my life. More like the more you know the less you know, but I have a science, technology, engineering, math (STEM) profession so I am constantly learning. I have achieved high success quickly. Earned a 4 year scholarship, graduated in 4 years which less than 10% do in my field, passed stringent national testing three different times on the first try, am 25 years younger than the median age in my field, and a partial owner where I work; I never really have failed at much that I put my mind to. Until this that is.

But NOW (after BD) I learned to not base happiness on my career. Big 180 for sure, and a cause of a lot of my underlying problems.

In relationships I feel not good enough, this is an area of work for me. I also need feed back and to listen to what she says (if we ever get there). When we were together I know she told me I was more than enough but I let doubt creep in. When I started loosing control with my work everything started to spiral down for us. I lost all confidence in myself and hated myself which changed how I treated others.

You are correct, I was most likely grasping at control of anything I could.


M:34 XW:34
Together: 10y
Living: 9y
Married: 7y
Son:6 Son:4
Separated: 12/28/13
Piecing: 5/2/14
Separated 2nd: 10/16/14
W filed, but pulled it: 11/5/14
papers served: 1/27/15
D final: 3/6/15
Wonka #2445896 04/15/14 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Wonka
I am not sure if you are in the piecing phase as it seems that W is not yet at that place or mindset in reconciliation. More of a "wait and see" approach to ensure that your words and actions are congruent to her. This is how you earn your trust with her. Make sense?

Oh and I would add that using humor during those talks are good way to inject light-hearted moments. Sometimes people get way too intense and they feel suffocated. It is a delicate dance that I think you can do here, GoFo! smile Self-deprecating humor is a winner!


I would say we may be at pre-piecing phase, but things could go either way depending on Thursday. I agree with a "wait and see" approach and feel that IF piecing comes to us, the book comments can be dealt with in a more healthy trust building way.

I feel the book has the potential to be a big mountain and I don't feel it is wise to climb the biggest mountain when we haven't even laced our boots yet. If we start this journey it will be on our route.

I also have a PhD in self-deprecating humor. We have always laughed a lot and I use humor to cheer people up or two ease tension. I also use it to mask feelings though and to change or divert subjects that are touchy so I need to be careful that I do not invalidate or discredit any progress we make with too much humor.

She uses humor too. When she dropped the bomb the next day when talking I broke severely and was a complete emotional mess. She was talking D and this time. A day or two later she backed off the D talk and I asked why? She started a comment, stopped, and I told her I could take it. She said "You were like a wounded animal and I felt that I should just put you out of your misery." I laughed my ass off, she did too, and it brought some levity to the situation. I still laugh about it. Boy I was a mess that day, thanks to the book and this board I am nowhere near that fragile anymore.


M:34 XW:34
Together: 10y
Living: 9y
Married: 7y
Son:6 Son:4
Separated: 12/28/13
Piecing: 5/2/14
Separated 2nd: 10/16/14
W filed, but pulled it: 11/5/14
papers served: 1/27/15
D final: 3/6/15
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